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‘Dying’ Hitchens Talks Mortality, Religion

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Posted on Aug 10, 2010
Hitchens
theatlantic.com

In this frank discussion with The Atlantic’s Jeffrey Goldberg and with Martin Amis, an ailing Christopher Hitchens stares down his own mortality and makes it clear that if he appears to embrace religion at any point during his bout with cancer, “the entity making such a remark might be a raving, terrified person whose cancer has spread to the brain.”  —KA

The Atlantic:

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, September 2, 2010 at 3:48 am Link to this comment

She,

“I think human men have evolved past the biologically-wired need to be attracted to fertility and some, though their numbers cannot even be described as a tribe, have actually achieved a brain that makes a distinction between women who are to be used for sexual pleasure or to stroke egos or sing the infantile to sleep, and see women as equal human beings who historically helped people the world for species sustainability.” 

I agree that males are hard wired to seek sex.  I have found myself glancing at breasts of female architects and engineers I deal with.  Modern day fashions actually enhance the female breasts to make them more noticeable and pronouced.

Men turn to mush at the presentation of a nice rack, Alpha or not and women, especially alpha women, often use this to their advantage.

Night Gaunt,

“The wolverine would make mincemeat of a cougar and it is 1/3 its size”.

That was not the kind of Cougar I was refering to.  The cougars I know are successful at devouring their prey and have good lawyers.

Leefeller,

As always, your inane posts which attempt humor never fail to disappoint.  I unfortuanately do not know any ‘blond’ jokes, so you are one up on me in that department and thats about all.

“Oh….I forgot, I have been told by self proclaimed Imbeciles of notoriety, I was never in the Marine Corps!”

I never claimed you were not in the Marines but I did allude to it as you did to me and my service with your “suspicions” early on in this thread. 

I do know that when a person is lying about something they invaribly tell the truth, often unaware of it.

Report this

By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Malcontent:You were probably told that by doctors, when your child was born (as was my mother). But it simply wasn’t true.
elisa: There are few who would challenge a doctor that tells a young mother that a certain procedure is recommended for the health of her baby.
.. . . . . . .and the money came rolling in.

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By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

By Malcontent, September 2 at 12:04 am
elisalouisa,
You quote Hedges: “All human institutions with a lust for power give their utopian visions divine sanction, whether this comes through the worship of God, destiny, historical inevitability,the master race, a worker’s paradise, fraternite-egalite-liberte or the second coming of Jesus Christ.”

Which one of those wields the most power in this world? Historically, which of those has had the most impact?

elisa: My subconscious must have thought this post so important that I have reposted it. This is debatable. Most power in the world? By nation or by religion? Are all in a religion united? Are atheistic countries united? I don’t think so.  Power as to? WMDs? Population, which now days is no power in light of WMDs that can destroy millions. Is Manifest Destiny a term for divine sanction? Could the U. S. wield the most power in the world? Could the U.S. have the most impact? In a historical sense how does the U.S. rate? What are your views?

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By Malcontent, September 1, 2010 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

“... even today it is recommended.”

No, it is not.

The WHO recommends it for areas with high heterosexual transmission rates (like Africa). But nobody else does.

You were probably told that by doctors, when your child was born (as was my mother). But it simply wasn’t true.

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By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 8:06 pm Link to this comment

War does not stop abuse of women. Rather war abuses women because of the crimes against humanity. How can women raise families in Iraq. Women above all should understand about loved ones, innocent ones being murdered for control of these strategic areas. That is what is happening. Nemesis’s concentration on what other cultures do to women encourages war, makes Muslims seems like animals. I do not buy that. I will never buy that.
I quote Chris Hedges from “I Don’t Believe in Atheists.”

“The danger is not Islam or Christianity or any other religion. It is the human heart—the capacity we all have for evil. All human institutions with a lust for power give their utopian visions divine sanction, whether this comes through the worship of God, destiny, historical inevitability, the master race, a worker’s paradise, fraternite-egalite-liberte or the second coming of Jesus Christ.”

We all indeed have a capacity for evil, let us look at the evil we perpetuate for that is something that we can do something about.

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By Malcontent, September 1, 2010 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa,

You quote Hedges;
” All human institutions with a lust for power give their utopian visions divine sanction, whether this comes through the worship of God, destiny,historical inevitability,the master race, a worker’s paradise, fraternite-egalite-liberte or the second coming of Jesus Christ.”

Which one of those wields the most power in this world? Historically, which of hose has had the most impact?

Report this

By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis: The Hebrew god also commands that all male infants should have their penises chopped up on the 8th day; genital mutilation that is still widely practiced throughout the Christian and Jewish world today. This is undisputable sexual discrimination against males as there are no commands to mutilate the genitalia of females. Circumcision is still being practiced today by adherents of the 3 monotheistic faiths. It is not a thing of the past into which one has to inject himself.

elisa: ”Again Nemesis, it is difficult to go back and inject yourself into a time space long gone. Many of the religious observances were in keeping for what beneficial to the people at that time such as circumcision. The purpose of removing the foreskin was a matter of cleanliness when baths and showers were not available.
Note: I responded in the time frame that you spoke of.

Nemesis: I’ll have to admit to an internal struggle on whether or not I should respond to this because when I think of animals hurting children something inside of me comes to the surface makes me want to…I doubt that anyone who took the time to read your loathsome apologia for torture, mutilation, and female subjugation failed to have a pained face to palm
moment. The unmitigated effrontery!
I’ll set aside for the moment the fact that you haven’t a clue as to what the hell you’re talking about and decry the hypocrisy of one who dares to present herself as an enlightened, altruistic, saintly Mother Teresa, concerned about the suffering and evil that plaques mankind and at the same time not only refuses
to denounce child abuse, torture, and sexist subjugation of women but shamelessly tries to defend it because said evil is based on mythological beliefs and traditions and performed in the name of one non-existent, psychopathic divine or another. 
I have long ago lost count on how many times you have tried to pass off ignorance as fact when that which you are propagating is easily exposed as ignorance and out right lies. The hygiene defense for mutilation of infant male genitalia was devised by believers to counter the secular world’s condemnation
of the practice.The reason for the “tradition” is found in the first five books of the Old Testament and/or the Torah. It was a “token of the covenant.” It was to be passed down to all generations as a sign of faithfulness and as a guarantee
that the Hebrews would be in possession of the so-called holy land forever. Never mind that they soon lost possession through several dispossessions albeit every male had his penis carved up.Circumcision was also an excuse for discrimination as all gentiles (non-believers in the Hebrew desert god) were derogatorily labeled as the “uncircumcised.”
Circumcision is still being practiced today by adherents of the 3 monotheistic faiths. It is not a thing of the past into which one has to inject himself. There is a case of a doctor using an electrical circumcising device to circumcise an
infant and due to having too high a voltage setting completely cut off the boy’s penis!
elisa:
My son was circumcised nemesis, even today it is recommended. I have been present at brismiehle(Hebrew spelling may be wrong) so don’t accuse me of not knowing what I am talk about. I ask why it is that you are so consumed with sexual mutilations? Is this normal for a widowed 66 year old male? Why the essay on circumcision?
Your continual diatribe against anything religious is more telling of who you are than it is of religion. Your writings tell it all. “Penises chopped” is very crude but then that is your trade mark. Your brain must be quite pickled by now.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 1, 2010 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

“We do all have a capacity for evil, let us look at the evil we perpetuate for that is something that we can do something about”

Er!...We….we….all the way home, elowesia, do you have a frog in your pocket like Chris Hedges?

I do not perpetuate evil, but on the other hand,.... maybe you and froggy do?

As for capacity of many things, this may be possible, but to perpetuate one thing as stated and in this case evil as the collective we .... NO! (one of my few absolutisms?)

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, September 1, 2010 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

Elisouisa you are still blind to the fact that religion can facilitate those evil tendencies found in many humans. So you are again, only half right.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 1, 2010 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

She, thanks for the double answer to me double questions.  I repeat myself, therefore I may exist, though ever so slightly depressed, not because I am married but because Republicans exist!

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By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment

War does not stop abuse of women. Rather war abuses women because of the crimes against humanity. How can women raise families in Iraq; loved ones, innocent ones being murdered for the power/elite. That is what is happening. Nemesis’s concentration on what other cultures do to women encourages war, making Muslims seem like animals. I do not buy that.
I quote Chris Hedges from I Don’t Believe in Atheists.

“The danger is not Islam or Christianity or any other religion. It is the human heart—the capacity we all have for evil. All human institutions with a lust for power give their utopian visions divine sanction, whether this comes through the worship of God, destiny,historical inevitability,the master race, a worker’s paradise, fraternite-egalite-liberte or the second coming of Jesus Christ.”

We do all have a capacity for evil, let us look at the evil we perpetuate for that is something that we can do something about.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 1, 2010 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

Shall I answer twice, Leefeller?  Okay… Okay…
“The other day I was at the doctors at the VA and they asked me,
if I felt depressed;.......So I answered…...“I am married, what the hell
do you think?”

She, is this considered a sexist statement?” 

It would depend on… if you were married to a woman.

” The other day I was at the doctors at the VA and they asked me, if I
felt depressed;.......So I answered…...“I am married, what the hell do
you think?”

She Is that a sexist statement?:

It would depend… on if you were married to a woman.

I hope you like my double sense of humor.

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By Malcontent, September 1, 2010 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, September 1 at 9:32 pm

“You show you have no respect for women anyway, so I would not be surprised.  Well I’m a bit bored parrying with you Malcontent so if you want to keep taking pot shots at me, ‘sall right just aim a little bit better.”

Please quote me, as to my lack of respect for women. (Excepting my chiding you about “irrational women”.)

“Malcontent, why would any criticism not ‘seem’ sexists to you?”

Of course. That’s why I brought the subject of sexism up….or was that you?

It must be me. Why would,“because there are few and far between brave males and hardly any with integrity” seem sexist to me? Nope. Doesn’t sound sexist to me. (sarcasm alert). You seem blind to your own vitriol.

All of my posts to you have been in the form of pointing out your (apparently justified) sexism, in your comments to other’s (apparently unjustified) sexism. We are all sexist on some level. That’s why I owned mine. I guess you are just incapable of accepting your own.

The age of cosmetics is irrelevant. Both men and women fight hard to hold onto their youth, often irrationally. So what? Sounds like a problem with mortality, not gender. Are you really that threatened by older men regaining their virility chemically? Should sex for men end before it does for women? Does your rebuke of such products indicate a dislike of virile men? Women never take hormones after a hysterectomy or have re-constructive surgery, so as to feel more ‘like a woman’ as they age and, inevitably, fall apart? Sounds kinda sexist to me.

I actually never accused you of being more sexist than I. But, neither am I more sexist than you.

Believe it or not, men have many issues with the women they meet too. It is only when you lay your personal experiences on all men, that you become sexist.

If you consider my posts ‘pot shots’ feel free to ignore them. Maybe you’ll come to the realization of your own sexism without anyone pointing it out.

This ‘black kettle’ is done trying to reason with you. Get back to me when you are no longer the ‘pot’.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 1, 2010 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

The other day I was at the doctors at the VA and they asked me, if I felt depressed;.......So I answered…...“I am married, what the hell do you think?” 

She, is this considered a sexist statement? I am trying to rid me self of this cursed sexist pox, I sure as hell, do not want to grow up to be like the Patrick Henry!

Damn, if I was religious, I could say the religion made me do it.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 1, 2010 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

The other day I was at the doctors at the VA and they asked me, if I felt depressed;.......So I answered…...“I am married, what the hell do you think?” 

She Is that a sexist statement?

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, September 1, 2010 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment

No you don’t and you don’t even have to get your panties all tied up in a knot either. Oh… shit! Is that sexist?Nemisis2010

No, just don’t talk down to me with that cutsie attack on my manhood with the reference to “panties” which are female. I would suggest taking the underwear off your head in response. First you make it sound like I am in some kind of emotional turmoil over this. Stop flattering yourself and breaking your arm patting yourself on the back for your “smarts” in this. Again another sly backhanded attack. Again how cute and precious you think you are that this tripe will work, will get a rise out of me in some way. I am not impressed with such juvinalia no matter how expert it is used. (Nor am I breathing any harder from your high school mental flailings in futility.) That tone was there and you didn’t address it. It sounds like you are deflecting instead of meeting it head on. If not then I will think less of you and move one.

Now how do you look at how death is treated in our death averse culture?

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 1, 2010 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

I.
”Before we tear down other lifestyles as to women we should
check our own and listen to the complaints that women have and
the difficulties they face in raising children and keeping it all
together.”

I have to say I am shocked, and repelled, at your comments
elisalouisa.  Based only on what you’ve written, human rights seems
to have little meaning for you and particularly shocking is how little
the lot of women in the world means to you.  Nemesis was a bit brutal
in his graphic description but sometimes not being polite is the wakeup
call to those who prefer to deny the ugliness in the world and in stark
comparison, and who retreat to a sentimentalism that has very little
coherence with reality.  The mild problems faced by unmarried or
divorced women in America even those with children are a travesty it is
true.  My mother was a single mom after my father came home from
the war a very damaged human being and attempted to damage both of
us, her in particular.  So I know first had how difficult it is for a single
woman uneducated to negotiate life who is not treated equal to men! 
Also divorced and had to return to the work force after a lengthy
marriage, and told I was a displaced housewife because I was not
allowed to work for almost two decades, and had no skills, even though
I had many business skills, and had two teenage children. I know first
hand how difficult it is.  But I survived and managed to rise to a fine
and tenured professorship paying for my own post graduate education
through hard work and raise my kids to be productive human beings. 
There is nothing I suffered that compares in the smallest amount with
what the women of third world countries must bear.  Be sure to know, I
had no help. No help at all.  But for you to show that you are not too
sympathetic to the ugliest plight of women in the world is the height of
crass insensitivity.  And I am proud to be on this forum with clarity of
insight that nemesis2010 has provided.  I have not heard a better
spokesperson.  I may criticize him for having been what I deem sexist
but it is almost negligible compared to the service he has done on
behalf of women.  I am able to filter out the seamy part.  I am sorry for
you that you are so insular and choose to ignore the reality that is
there.

Moreover, who are the ‘we’ you are talking about elisalouisa?  You
make very vague and ambiguous charges.  Please do not include me in
your ‘we.’ And all the women I know would not want to be included
either.  Some verifiable statistics would give you some credibility. 
There is absolutely no comparison between what American women go
through and what the women of the world do.  It sounds like you are
very provincially sheltered as to what horrors the women in the Middle
East suffer, the women in India, or Africa and South America and Asia,
like everywhere!  For instance some Islamic writers seem content to
dump Muslim misogyny at the feet of ‘culture,’ as if that were an
acceptable excuse for a religion essentially sanctioning practices like
mutilation, slavery and murder.  That community has expressed little
disapproval of cruelty toward women within its confines. 

Women’s oppression’ is an expression that does not come close to
conveying what second-class humanity means in a person’s life. These
practices include unequal rights to property, child custody, health care,
nutrition, political participation, education and treatment in the courts,
all benefits to which American women have access.

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By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

Tell me about the horrors and slaughters our culture has inflicted starting at the very beginning Nemesis, with Native Americans? Who are you to continually try to have us turn against other cultures in order that we may perpetuate these wars? You, I am afraid are the fearmonger. You are most self-righteous. I do
not say I condone “sexual mutilation.” I am telling you the reasons in the view of other cultures, not to justify what is being done to these unfortunate women. Who are you to continually judge them after the horrendous crimes inflicted on humanity by our “contractors,” and WMDs. Let our msm show the photos of
what is taking place in Gaza, in our torture prisons, the devastation left in Iraq and now in Afghanistan. Let them know what our “contractors” do.  I am more responsible for what my country does because it is done with my tax money. I do care what goes on in Iraq, because my tax money helped leave that country devastated. Where are the women now, with polluted drinking water, lack of food, utilities shut off. Is that liberating women? Why don’t you bring that up instead of sex mutilations? We are responsible for the horror in Iraq where women cannot decently raise their children. Yet, no one raised their voice in
dissent. How do such cultures look up on us after experiencing the continual murders of the innocent. What does this do to our young military when they are part of these slaughters? Could that be the reason they return from these wars so devastated that they can no longer function in everyday life? That’s what I want to talk about, not your agenda that intends to perpetuate war.
Our plate is full enough with the crimes we have perpetuated and those are the crimes that we should be talking about.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 1, 2010 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment

II.
Violence against women is epidemic in many societies, although
in the West the practice is at least illegal and perpetrators are
prosecuted. Aren’t you so lucky?  In September 1999, Amnesty
International released a report, ‘Pakistan Honor Killings of Girls
and Women’ which disclosed that hundreds of women are brutally
murdered annually for the smallest affronts to rigid social codes of
conduct. An unproved charge of sexual infidelity, even a husband’s
paranoid dream, often resulted in a woman being burned or hacked to
death. Her murderer receives the approval of his family and community
for his action.  Please, EL, show such equal treatment to American
women.

Certain other what are called “cultural norms” can only be considered by
anyone in their right mind as torture and child abuse. Female genital
mutilation is still practiced extensively in dozens of countries on
up to two million girls annually . An estimated 135 million
women and girls
have been subjected to this barbarism. But of
course these staggering numbers probably have no meaning for you. 

Another abuse of girls is arranged marriage to much older men, which
ensures that young wives enter the relationship in a disadvantaged
position as regards power, a situation designed to last throughout the
marriage. Many polygamous marriages are to minor females, with the
aim that male control will prevail. Indeed, in some of these cultures
(e.g. the afore-mentioned Pakistan, Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, etc.) the
enforced servility of women is so complete that it is hard to see how
‘marriage’ is anything more than sexual slavery.

A custom which still has widespread currency is the requirement that a
rapist marry his victim, a practice which exists in Latin America,
southeast Asia and west Africa. It is the law in 14 Latin American
countries that a rapist will be exonerated if he marries his victim.
Clearly, the feelings of the crime’s victim account for zero.

Do you think you are educating anyone with this maudlin statement
of yours?  “Monogamous marriage places responsibility on two people
with no back ups unless there is family living close by. When a marriage
breaks up as one in two do in this country, women have it twice as
difficult because no matter what anyone tells you, the responsibility of
raising children in mainly in the hands of women. Most mothers, of
course, do not shirk their duties in this respect, but many must also
hold down full time jobs to buy the bacon.”

”Therefore, it wouldn’t hurt to look into alternative lifestyles which I
am certain will make their way into our social setting as time goes
on.”
  What?  Wouldn’t hurt, are you sure? That is about as
imperceptive and anesthetized a comment as I’ve ever heard about this
topic.  Wouldn’t hurt? Don’t bother yourself.

Malcontent, why would any criticism not ‘seem’ sexists to you?  What a
misogynist you have been exposed to be!  Women have been using
cosmetics since Nefreteri. So don’t try to slither out of the huge
marketing push to the “new” remaking of old men into young men!  A
laugh riot.  Hair coloring started with henna, another ancient Egyptian
practice.  And vast numbers of men spend billions on hair restoration
as well as with amusing delirium buy products to get rid of their gray
beards even. And the vain wigs so prevalent, ala Letterman.  You are
pathetic. Seriously.  Perhaps you have only qualified for shallow women? 
You show you have no respect for women anyway, so I would not be
surprised.  Well I’m a bit bored parrying with you Malcontent so if you
want to keep taking pot shots at me, ‘sall right just aim a little bit
better.

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By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 5:02 pm Link to this comment

As to dietary laws, the Israelites did just fine and do just fine Nemesis. Where are they today? Many are still practicing the same dietary laws that you so ridicule and they are all the better for it. In fact what better tribute to their dietary observances
could there be than the prominence of Jews in most professional fields and the fact that Israel is a major world power?
Liberate women by not killing them, their children and husbands in our continual wars. As to your numbers, count the clones we murder the innocent with, hopefully this time you can go beyond four. Our mothers could use that war money to build and fund childcare centers. If you care about liberating women first liberate our own.
Haves and Have nots may be layered but the future hold two main classes and layers within those class. You don’t agree? That’s fine with me. Because as long as you don’t agree I know my views are A-OK.

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By Malcontent, September 1, 2010 at 5:02 pm Link to this comment

By PatrickHenry, September 1 at 7:25 am

That was funny.

I was gonna respond to elisalouisa’s religious excuses, but nemesis covered it.

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By Malcontent, September 1, 2010 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, September 1 at 5:28 pm

If this was a Brave New World, maybe.  But since it isn’t, because there are few and far between brave males and hardly any with integrity, and those who are left have egos up the wazoo, especially the old over the hill codgers…”

That doesn’t sound sexist. (For an inherently irrational female, that is.) Why are they getting farther between? It’s not merely your perception…is it?

“I can see why there are about 4 or 5 male enhancement drugs out on the market these days and the ads are uncountable, like 10-12 every couple of hours…”

There does seem to be one after every cosmetics ad. (You know the ones, that bring back youth with high tech graphics to illustrate their phony ‘chemistry’.) Or shampoos packed with vitamins for your dead hair. Inadequate eyelashes? Botox? At least viagra allegedly works as advertised. (According to the actual clinical trials, not B.S. marketing.)

”..what a laugh riot, telling all that millions and
millions of guy just can’t get it on anymore. As if the world needs more sperm in it looking for young females to impregnate, accidentally or not.  Is it any wonder with all the overspent alphamale testosterone?”

And I suppose all of those made up, hair colored women in their push up bras are not looking for an erection? Rampant estrogen? Or is that sexist?

Seriously, most of the women I know are shallow, hyper consumers who are more concerned with aesthetics than function. On the other hand, most of the men I know are shallow, unethical and obsessed with televised corporate sports teams.

Which group best represents their gender? You come off (to me) as smart, capable and slightly bitter. Welcome to the club.

“Lots of laughs.”

Indeed.

This thread has devolved into playground assessments of both sexes.

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By nemesis2010, September 1, 2010 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

3.

By elisalouisa, August 31 at 10:58 pm

”Dietary observances were for health reasons, etc.“

Yeah… some healthy diet that is. Let’s see… the Assyrians kicked Israel’s ass and dispersed them so thoroughly among other peoples that we’ve got all the “Ten Lost Tribe” myths to deal with. Then came the Babylonians who waylaid Judah not once but three times and on the final ass-kicking sent them into exile from their own lands for 70 years. Then came the Antiochus and the Greeks followed by the Romans who had enough of their rebellions and dispersed them throughout the lands for 2,000 years until Europe decided that the best way to handle their Jewish problem would be to dump them on the Palestinians.

Appears that all those who didn’t practice the special divine diet were so healthy that they had no problem overcoming those that did… some diet, huh? 

Even today their “divine diet” assures their continued healthy existence only as long as the U.S. stands behind them protecting them from being driven into the sea by the Palestinians.

By elisalouisa, August 31 at 10:58 pm

”Having observed the Jewish High Holidays for some years I have a genuine respect for Judaism as well as Christianity.“

I’m not surprised… you also have a genuine respect for child abuse, torture and the subjugation of women so that men can feel superior. That doesn’t make you better it makes you…

By elisalouisa, August 31 at 10:58 pm

” Religious institutions have brought people through many difficult periods.“

WRONG! Humans have persevered through difficult times despite religious institutions who were, more often than not, the cause for the difficult times.

By elisalouisa, August 31 at 10:58 pm

”We are entering a new era and it will not be the religious institutions who are in the foreground of such responsibilities. What this new era shall evolve to is anyone’s guess. What does the future hold? Perhaps two classes, the power/elite and the virtual slave class? If I had to put money on it, I would say yes for that is what our country is heading for.“

There has never been nor can there ever be only two classes as your fear-mongering propaganda would have us believe. Any power-elite has to have a henchmen class at its beck and call. And there has never been a better henchman class for totalitarian power than the religious class. No matter how totalitarian the system there are always more than two or three levels of “Haves” and “Have Nots.”

This is just a continuation of your out right lie argument trying to put fear into everyone by making an indirect and unsubstantiated claim that the “godless” are corrupting and taking control of the world. Actually just the opposite is true. Look at all the trouble spots around the world and you will find a religious connection.

Atheists simply do not have the numbers to be responsible for all the evil that you accuse them of. And your so-called “importance of numbers” is just more of your bat shit crazy, disconnected illogic.

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By nemesis2010, September 1, 2010 at 3:53 pm Link to this comment

2.

By elisalouisa, August 31 at 10:58 pm

”The family unit was important to survival.“

And all the many multibillions of Homo sapiens who never resorted to such bat shit crazy antics?

By elisalouisa, August 31 at 10:58 pm

”Thus the pleasure of sex was at times denied women in order that they would not stray. It was not to inflict suffering.“

So now you’re saying that all your precious “sistahs” are nothing but cheating little hoes who can’t stop banging everything that walks unless their genitalia are brutally mutilated!

What kind of a sick, twisted, mind do you have? I cannot understand how other women reading this sick, twisted tripe aren’t thrashing you to kingdom come! Why is it only atheist males that are decrying this horror being perpetrated on females?

Not to inflict suffering? Do you even have a clue what infibulation is? It’s from a Latin word meaning to sew together!

You tell me what kind of a sick fuck orders an innocent child to be held down by several adult women, have a stick placed into her mouth because she is not allowed to cry out, while without the benefit of anesthesia, another adult slices away her clitoris, slices away the labia with either a knife, a razor, or in some cases a piece of broken glass! After which she is then forced to endure the closing of her vagina with sutures of cat gut or string and in some cases thorns! Followed by having her ankles bound and is made to lie still for 40 days… provided she isn’t bleeding to death and has to be rushed to a hospital or just left to die.

”These genital mutilations have serious, and often fatal, consequences. Immediate consequences can include excruciating pain, hemorrhage, tetanus, vesicula-vaginal fistulae (rupture of the vaginal walls), septicemia, and death. The long-term consequences can include scarring, infertility, painful sexual intercourse, long and obstructed labor, chronic uterine and vaginal infections, HIV infection from contaminated instruments, bladder incontinence, dysmenorrhea, and obstruction of the flow of menstrual blood. During childbirth, the risks of maternal death, stillbirths, hemorrhage, and infection are greatly increased.” -World Health Organization, Female Genital Mutilation: World Health Assembly Calls for the Elimination of Harmful Traditional Practices

Do you how she is “broken”?

”No matter how virile the husband, consummation of the marriage is nearly impossible because of the surgically created barrier. Therefore, in most marriages, the husband or one his female relatives will enlarge the vaginal opening with a small knife so that sexual intercourse can take place. It is the responsibility of the husband’s female relatives to examine the bride a few weeks after the marriage, and if necessary, to enlarge the vaginal opening to permit intercourse.”
http://www.cirp.org/pages/female/pieters1/

In one culture the husband bangs away at her for 8 days to keep the tissue from sealing the vagina again. During the day he walks around with the bloody knife on his shoulders for all the others to see.

Would you please try to construct enough crazy to explain to us how this does not inflict suffering? You have any idea where I think you can stick your “traditions”?

This is violence against children! Little girls as young as 4 and in some cases infants; they aren’t given a choice. They are condemned to suffer the results of this abhorrent barbarity the rest of their lives. Little girls, children, being held down by 3 or 4 adults while they carved her up like an animal.

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By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

Before we tear down other lifestyles as to women we should check our own and listen to the complaints that women have and the difficulties they face in raising children and keeping it all together. Monogamous marriage places responsibility on two people with no back ups unless there is family living close by. When a marriage breaks up as one in two do in this country, women have it twice as difficult because no matter what anyone tells you, the responsibility of raising children in mainly in the hands of women. Most mothers, of course, do not shirk their duties in this respect, but many must also hold down full time jobs to buy the bacon. Therefore, it wouldn’t hurt to look into alternative lifestyles which I am certain will make their way into our social setting as time goes on.

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By nemesis2010, September 1, 2010 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

1.

By elisalouisa, August 31 at 10:58 pm

”Again Nemesis, it is difficult to go back and inject yourself into a time space long gone. Many of the religious observances were in keeping for what was beneficial to the people at that time such as circumcision. The purpose of removing the foreskin was a matter of cleanliness when baths and showers were not readily available.“

I’ll have to admit to an internal struggle on whether or not I should respond to this because when I think of animals hurting children something inside of me comes to the surface makes me want to…

I doubt that anyone who took the time to read your loathsome apologia for torture, mutilation, and female subjugation failed to have a pained face to palm moment. The unmitigated effrontery!

I’ll set aside for the moment the fact that you haven’t a clue as to what the hell you’re talking about and decry the hypocrisy of one who dares to present herself as an enlightened, altruistic, saintly Mother Teresa, concerned about the suffering and evil that plaques mankind and at the same time not only refuses to denounce child abuse, torture, and sexist subjugation of women but shamelessly tries to defend it because said evil is based on mythological beliefs and traditions and performed in the name of one non-existent, psychopathic divine or another. 

I have long ago lost count on how many times you have tried to pass off ignorance as fact when that which you are propagating is easily exposed as ignorance and out right lies. The hygiene defense for mutilation of infant male genitalia was devised by believers to counter the secular world’s condemnation of the practice.

The reason for the “tradition” is found in the first five books of the Old Testament and/or the Torah. It was a “token of the covenant.” It was to be passed down to all generations as a sign of faithfulness and as a guarantee that the Hebrews would be in possession of the so-called holy land forever. Never mind that they soon lost possession through several dispossessions albeit every male had his penis carved up.

Circumcision was also an excuse for discrimination as all gentiles (non-believers in the Hebrew desert god) were derogatorily labeled as the “uncircumcised.”

Circumcision is still being practiced today by adherents of the 3 monotheistic faiths. It is not a thing of the past into which one has to inject himself. There is a case of a doctor using an electrical circumcising device to circumcise an infant and due to having too high a voltage setting completely cut off the boy’s penis!

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By Shenonymous, September 1, 2010 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

If this was a Brave New World, maybe.  But since it isn’t, because
there are few and far between brave males and hardly any with
integrity, and those who are left have egos up the wazoo, especially
the old over the hill codgers, so only the lowly lambda females of all
ages and nobile-ity have to work to make it better themselves.  I can
see why there are about 4 or 5 male enhancement drugs out on the
market these days and the ads are uncountable, like 10-12 every
couple of hours, what a laugh riot, telling all that millions and
millions of guy just can’t get it on anymore. As if the world needs
more sperm in it looking for young females to impregnate,
accidentally or not.  Is it any wonder with all the overspent
alphamale testosterone?  Lots of laughs.

So glad She did not disappoint, nemesis2010. You do know She
lives for that don’t you?  hahahaha

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By nemesis2010, September 1, 2010 at 1:07 pm Link to this comment

By Night-Gaunt, September 1 at 1:12 pm

” Should I swear an oath next just to make sure I am loyal? It is of the same tone to me. “

No you don’t and you don’t even have to get your panties all tied up in a knot either. Oh… shit! Is that sexist?

I asked it to drive home a point. I thought that most wouldn’t bother to respond but I knew that one would not only not deny it, but try to defend it. She didn’t disappoint, did she?

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By nemesis2010, September 1, 2010 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

Good Ford you guys disappoint me…

In the book there are 5 castes of human beings. Only one caste develops naturally, maturing in decanting bottles while the other four castes are subjected to in situ. Better to be an Alphamale or Alphafemale than a Beta, Gamma, Delta, or Epsilon.

It’s an inside joke because one individual fears that should humans lose their stupidity and stop believing in psychopathic imaginary sky daddies our only alternative will be that we’ll all become soma induced automaton worshippers of the Almighty Ford living in a corporate command society, engaging in recreational sex, and depriving humans of the joys of religious oppression. Where would humans be without senseless religious ritual, infant and child genitalia mutilation, male domination, female subjection, slavery, clerical privilege, ignorance, tribal exceptionalism, etc.?

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By nemesis2010, September 1, 2010 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

By PatrickHenry, September 1 at 7:25 am

”As an older man I would like to sleep with a couple of young nubile women if only so they have someone to talk to when I fall asleep.“

Bwaaaaaaaa! Damn Patrick! Where the hell have you been hiding this personality? That’s the Patrick Henry you should let out to play dude!

By Malcontent, August 31 at 11:40 pm

”Aside from elisalouisa, I don’t see anyone here defending them.
I have considered religious indoctrination to be child abuse since my youth. On the other hand while I can (and often do) rail against religion and it’s violence and perversion of rational thought, I find I have to temper such thoughts when actually dealing with believers.

On the one hand, I find belief in the bible to be batshit insane. On the other, I don’t wish to approach the 90th percentile of the public with such an attitude. I am socially impaired enough, already.

For the record, I never said you were sexist, only that the wording of your post came off as sexist. But, then again, you probably are. I know I am. I don’t have an issue with this. I was just pointing out how, by using “politically incorrect” language, you distract from otherwise good points. Why create the distraction?

I believe women to by my equal, under the law and intellectually. (Well, same percentages as men anyway.) But, to claim we are the same, is both delusional and if true, would be disappointing. I may complain that I don’t understand women, a lot. But, it’s probably a good thing.“

If there were a vote for best post on a thread this would be the one to get my vote.

Pure poetry!

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By Malcontent, September 1, 2010 at 11:32 am Link to this comment

“Yeah, right Malcontent. Use your couple of instances as the measure
for all.”

Never said that. Nor did I intentionally elude to such a concept.

My only point is it is neither black nor white. Your response could be construed as defensive as well.

You mention work and salary inequalities and I agree. With all the mention of social, sexual and reproductive roles and the differences in the way men respond to older/younger women, I was under the impression the conversation had turned to men and women and the way they treat each other, on a personal level. I was only referring to the age issue.

It is a patriarchal world, no doubt, but that is a broader subject than the one I was addressing.

These types of discussions always devolve into generalities, which usually renders both sides wrong.

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By Shenonymous, September 1, 2010 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

Yeah, right Malcontent. Use your couple of instances as the measure
for all.  Yup the typical reactive defense and you prove that men
are the measure of all things.  All studies show that women are still
in the shithouse when it comes to equal pay for equal work, why just
today it was mentioned on the news.  So yeah, the reality is that
women are equal, but it is affectatious to say they ARE equal to men
in reality.  Of course there are women who are shallow, and there are
plenty more who are shallow due to defensive and self-minimizing
conditioning over the millennia humans have been on the earth. 
There are moments in the history of humankind where women did
rule a society, as in the snake goddess time period, like several
thousands of years ago, maybe once in Egypt’s history, and maybe
once in England’s. But come on. The history of the world is a couple
hundred thousand years worth.  And those were “moments.”  And if
you just take a peek at how women are treated in Islamic countries,
and the Hindu cultures, and I say without hesitation, in the Judeo/
Christian especially the Christian Catholic tradition as well as many
protestant sects, you would be extremely remiss not to notice how
subjugated women are.  So go ahead and be defensive, I don’t blame
you, you are within the ordinary male collective. 

Mann it is way past lunchtime.  See ya later ‘gator.

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By Malcontent, September 1, 2010 at 10:31 am Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, September 1 at 12:14 pm

“The progress is at glacial speed because of the
resistance men have put up, and it is my opinion, it is because they do
not want to relinquish their passive aggressive pampered state. “

While there is probably a lot of truth to that statement, I believe it is only half of the story.

Women too, resist the changing of our gender roles. Just as with the recent debate on health care, in which those without good insurance wanted change and those with insurance liked the status quo, some women resist change also.

While you may feel free to belittle men for their preoccupation with youth, I think it goes deeper than that.

When I was younger I dated an older woman. When I told my female friends about her, they immediately approved w/o any other information about her, other than her age. Odd.

Even odder, when I found myself middle-aged and single, I met a younger woman. At the mention of her age, I was immediately derided as shallow and too immature to deal with a woman my age. When they found out how intelligent and driven she was, having started a successful company in her early twenties, they still disapproved. But, when they met her and realized that in spite of their age difference, they were, as a group, more attractive than she, their attitudes immediately changed. Sexism and jealousy are, apparently, indistinguishable at times.

So, while we may be equal, we are equal in our shallowness as well. I find that attractive women like the status quo, as it works for them.

It is true that men, as a group, have more power to resist change, than women. But, a lot of women are no help to their own cause.

So men suck. And so do women. See? We are equal.

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By Shenonymous, September 1, 2010 at 10:08 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, I will try to be as direct as you are.  Normally I would not
‘lump’ you with the PH factor. And when it comes to this particular
topic that is the only time I would no perhaps about it. 

Your comments: ”making all men sound like bulls running the
fence seems a tad over stated. If you need an explanation of bulls
running the fence, I can fill you in.

Me thinks someone is stretching their brain again?”

I did not make ALL men sound like bulls running the fence so not any
overstatement even a tad.  And why would anyone need an explanation
of bulls running the fence?  I, a woman, was not stretching my brain,
again, and not ever do I.”

“She, I checked out the Alpha website and found it interesting they
have a male Lyon as their mascot, though I am not an expert on Lyons,
but it is my contention, female Lyons are the alphaboss? Damn small
print too!...  I will check it out again later after I get my new monocle
and have more time on me hands.”

I was specifically referring to the machismo phenomenon found in
human male animals.  No need to vitiate (minimize) the comparison
with he-man lions whose arrangement in the pride is for species
propagation.

“She,
Boy am I glad I have never classified myself as an alphamale,
alphafemale, alphahomosexual or even as an alphaunicorn, though one
exception may be,  if one has a dog it would seem most significant to
attempt being the alpha pack leader; this according to the dog whistle
guy;...... excepting of course if one has a wife.”

The fun you are making is derision.  For why would a wife be of any
consequence to a dog whistling guy?

“Shester, for obvious reasons I find lumping me, myself and I
Leefeller,  in the same categoric list as Patrick Henry most disturbing,
for I do not find my bigotry in the same light as his. disturbed as I may
seem, for may see meself as a L-phamale and one of a kind.
If you would please explain why the lumping? Otherwise I may see
opportunity for reason to do the same by lumping elisalouisa and
Shester in the same light of convenience and start firing off my long list
of sexist blond jokes!”

Now elisalouisa and I are the same in one major respect, and that is
being female.  And I have no problem with that in the least.  Ruling
female lions and hyena false penises aside.

Yes, you could retaliate in some way by threatening to lump EL and the
Shester, using a long list of sexist blond jokes, your prerogative. But I
would say that your journal of a “long” list of sexist blond jokes proves
my point. 

It is a pernicious mentality for men to hold women in such poor esteem,
even when they do not suspect it of themselves, and think their L-
phamale attitude is devoid of sexism.  Look up the word pernicious
and then you might also have to look up the word insidious.

All of you guys are forgiven the helpless attitudes you have been
preconditioned to have.  It is so embedded that I doubt it is directly
your fault and that it is unconscious.  There, I’ve given you an out.  It is
just that if you can catch yourself that I hope you would reconsider
making any demeaning statements about them (blonde or not) or act in
a way that is demeaning to women.  One cannot legislate against one’s
thoughts, right? But it is possible to shed defensive reaction and
recondition and humanize yourself.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 1, 2010 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

Well Nemisis2010 I have stated repeatedly that I am an Atheist so to condemn the primitive, vile, violent, anti-human and destructive nature of any kind of religion, including the state worshiping secular types of the gods of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot* et cetera aud nausem which operate in the same way. Of course I do! Isn’t it obvious? Should I swear an oath next just to make sure I am loyal? It is of the same tone to me.

* There are very few exceptions like Ba’hai and Buddhisim but they are made by humans for humans and you know how we are.

Yes Leefella the lioness are the ones who rule most of the pride except the male who is in charge and he decides whose offspring lives—his. Unlike the hyena where the ladies do rule, even down to the fake penises that the females have for a reason I am as yet unaware. A curious species the spotted and striped types. But far from cowardly. They have been known to drive off lions to feed on the carcasses. The wolverine would make mincemeat of a cougar and it is 1/3 its size.

I am attracted to women because I am a man. (The problem of course is their lack of attraction to me.) Not all women but I try to do it without insulting her since in this area women rule over us. (Unless you are an alpha male who believes whatever you want you can take.) Now if they could just get the 50% rulership in our society at large. They still have just a miniscule number. I don’t have them off hand but you can count how many in our gov’t and leading positions in our military, churches and business. We can next get into the fact of how many of our leaders in all ares are still white males. Maybe in 100 years if we don’t slide into a dictatorship of a definite Christian based fundamentalism you would find in Leviticus. It would be little better than what is in Iran or Saudi Arabia. But it would be North American.

Because of my particular “condition” I was not only shy but had no reason or want to be such an alpha male. However I was not prone to show weakness either so bullies tended to stay away from me. Or it was that I was too odd and they tend to stay away from such people as I found out much later. (Curiously in primitive cultures the more odd the more likely they would choose them to either rule them or be their window to the invisible world.)

As for mortality I despise it with one part of my brain as another speaks of the natural order and there is no room in our present biosphere for immortals, or at least open ended life spans. I however would want to practice athanasis or living without dying staying at a vigorous age like 25 or even up to 40. I would gladly let all the religious believers live their spans and die and go to their supposed heavens. As I told my mother, when you die finding out your wrong is way too late.

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By Leefeller, September 1, 2010 at 9:09 am Link to this comment

Shester, for obvious reasons I find lumping me, myself and I Leefeller,  in the same categoric list as Patrick Henry most disturbing, for I do not find my bigotry in the same light as his. disturbed as I may seem, for may see meself as a L-phamale and one of a kind. 

If you would please explain why the lumping? Otherwise I may see opportunity for reason to do the same by lumping elisalouisa and Shester in the same light of convenience and start firing off my long list of sexist blond jokes!

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By Shenonymous, September 1, 2010 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

Arnold Schwartzenegger did it!  Movie:  “Junior” (1994) Lots of laughs

But you are right elisalouisa and I think most women would agree
although I have no statistics.  Just going on gut feeling (not womb
feeling).  In fact I prefer it, in my mind there is nothing wrong with
women being women and men being men, but those collective nouns
really do need to be redefined in the context of the evolved contemporary
world.

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By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 8:48 am Link to this comment

Equality is women being women and men being men. Once we are relaxed with who we are rather than trying to be like the other, energy will be correctly channeled. We are at times consumed with what is politically correct. Think out of the box.  Again, these are my views, unpopular as they are, no stats.
Added comment: When the womb is evenly distributed in all humans, then and only then will there be true equality. Can women’s lib pull this off? I doubt it.

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By Leefeller, September 1, 2010 at 8:23 am Link to this comment

elisalouisa, seemingly promoting fond feelings toward the concept of polygamy by two religions which view polygamy as acceptable?  The fact that neither religion supports equal rights of women evades her?

After the fertility comments and now this fondness for polygamy,  one may say elisolouisa’s puzzling lack of support of womens rights,  may be surfacing. 

My opinion is clearly (almost an absolutism) this; any man who would marry more than one women at the same time would, seem a lot touched in the head or should be pronounced dementedly insane, unless they were clinically deaf.

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By Shenonymous, September 1, 2010 at 8:14 am Link to this comment

Good Wednesday Morning all…
P-H:  “They are more attracted to the young nubile woman who
appreciatively seem more interesting sex partners than women who
might be more mature and present some challenge to their
“manhood.””

It is within my plan to see that statement appear as many times as
it can be!  Yes, I’ have been counting the number of TD guys who
would relate to that statement.  It was picked up verbatim from the
website on a study of alphamales.  I didn’t make it up.  Laugh laugh

I think human men have evolved past the biologically-wired need to be
attracted to fertility and some, though their numbers cannot even be
described as a tribe, have actually achieved a brain that makes a
distinction between women who are to be used for sexual pleasure or
to stroke egos or sing the infantile to sleep, and see women as equal
human beings who historically helped people the world for species
sustainability. 

While it is true most women are physically weaker than men, with their
female X chromosome, they have overcome that by naturally evolving
high intelligence in order to survive, at which free women throughout
the world have greatly though not completely succeeded.  But, in
general, they have not yet been able to overcome their physical
limitations and as Night-Gaunt so astutely noted, women have yet to
achieve full equality.  The progress is at glacial speed because of the
resistance men have put up, and it is my opinion, it is because they do
not want to relinquish their passive aggressive pampered state.  When
meeting up with free and intelligent women, most men will resort to the
kind of thinking that is displayed on this forum.  Defensively women
are then considered ball busters and the guys shrink in more ways
than one from authentic and meaningful relationship and highly
raucous remarks are made.

I just say, to elisalouisa, thank the forces in the universe women’s
reproductive cycle is not as long.  Typically my gramma had 10 children
because of her religious commandment (Catholic) that women will be
kept barefoot and pregnant.  Unbridled birthrate had almost nearly
ruined China and is now being encouraged by Islamists and eventually
will ruin them as well.  China now has a 2 and 1/2 children per family
criminal law. haha 2 and a half!  Imagine all those trillions upon trillions
of sperm just waiting to join up with the miniscule by comparison uva if
women’s pregnancy longevity were increased.  Speak about
overpopulation!  In general, men cannot control physical urges and
think they have the right to exercise them to their fullest orgasm either
with women or otherwise. 

There is lots and lots of philosophic and psychology discussion about
this throughout the ages.  In Freudian psychiatry, in women’s liberation,
and in homosexual studies, and so forth.  Women are normally sexual
beings as well and have similar needs to satisfy that natural impulse but
they are traditionally (by laws devised by men) not supposed to express
that and when they do they are ridiculed as hotties because it is also
supposedly only within the province of men to have such needs.  The
fact is they do get “hot” but only as much as do men!  Except for a very
few, women on the whole intelligently control their passions.

Now I did say and I do believe all men are not alike and there are some
sprinkled throughout the population who are more evolved human
beings, not lions.  And I did say I have personally known a few.  Sadly,
too few.  But for the most part men will react exactly as Leefeller and
Patrick-Henry have.  And along with the prideful nemesis2010 who
sees himself as an alphamale, these three are representative of the
masses of men in the world, even in their advanced age.  Now we in our
advanced sense of humor must find this hysterically funny

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By elisalouisa, September 1, 2010 at 7:48 am Link to this comment

It is always good to have common ground Malcontent I also agree with you that the sexes are equal but not the same. That is why at times I wonder if monogamous marriage is practical.That is another social institution that may be seeing it’s last days. Home and nurturing are part of the female composite, perhaps even the overwhelming part. Men seem to have more of a tendency to
roam, perhaps by chance encountering young females; they lack a womb, a womb which by nature makes women who they are. Controversial stuff now days. The joy of women is really in their offspring. In men also, but the need to make their mark
in other ways is more pronounced,. The Mormons may have in right as to marriage, also the Arabs with their multiple wives. These are my views and opinions, I have no facts that would substantiate such statements. Of course, that’s not saying I could accept such arrangements, the bias in my upbringing prevents that.

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By Leefeller, September 1, 2010 at 7:24 am Link to this comment

My constant desire to put other people down is sort of working out like my passion to hate Arabs,...... but I am trying to give them both up!

Putting people down, while putting people down seems such a sleazy way of doing things, probably requires one to be a member of one of those secretive organizations like, “Imbeciles are Us”!  We seem to be surrounded here on Truthdig by quite a large number of card carrying members!

Even with one quarter of Truthdig number threes brain tied behind my back, I cannot even phantom what one of those regressive Republican blog sites would be like to read or post on; sites like “Just Say No” or the more popular site; “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell”, then there is always “Palins Prattle”, ..... though sometimes I think I may already be there!

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By PatrickHenry, September 1, 2010 at 3:25 am Link to this comment

She

“They are more attracted to the young nubile woman who appreciatively seem more interesting sex partners than women who might be more mature and present some challenge to their “manhood.”

You mean cougars?  Most fearsome predators on the planet.

As an older man I would like to sleep with a couple of young nubile women if only so they have someone to talk to when I fall asleep.

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By Shenonymous, August 31, 2010 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

” Shenonymous,
I don’t know if your arrogance, pedantry, and outright conceit and the
constant desire to put people down are classified as alphamale,
alphafemale or alphaunisex behaviour.?Although I am an atheist, Christ
got it right when he said: take the log from your own eye before asking
your neighbour to take a tiny straw from his eye.”

Was that a put down, truedigger3? It was very very short… and
inciseful.  Seems like my arrogance is razor sharp!  Maybe you don’t
make the distinction either?  No logs in my eyes about the difference
between sex and sexism.  And I am not arrogant, pendantic, outright
conceited and I have no constant desire to put down anybody, I am not
a shark!  I am a barracuda!  And quoting Christ is ridiculous when you
are an atheist.  Do parse your criticisms better than you so far have. 
You sound just like one of those pampered boys.  First of all it wasn’t a
neighbor, it was a brother, try Matthew 7:5.  So show me where I spoke
about sex talk and not about sexism, truedigger3 and asked my brother
to take the tiny straw from his eye? 

” She, I checked out the Alpha website and found it interesting they
have a male Lyon as their mascot, though I am not an expert on Lyons,
but it is my contention, female Lyons are the alphaboss?”
  Well,
Leefeller, the strutting male lion has that huge mane you know… 

The Urban Dictionary says, “The alpha male is an act that is performed
by males usually in their teens and twenties who act tough, are loud,
and have to be the center of attention or they feel insecure. When a
man is successful and in his thirties he no longer acts this way because
he has grown up and realized that the entire alpha male act is phony.
When was the last time you saw a rich, successful man try to pick a
fight??? Never. The only guys that do this are the losers that go to bars
to take their anger out because they are angry inside for going nowhere
in life.” And a little bit more for your amusing consumption: “The term
‘Alpha Male’ can be defined in both a classical and modern sense. The
classical definition derives from the animal kingdom and represents a
physical form of dominance over other males. The alpha male lion, for
example, claims sexual rights to all females, fights off other male lions
to enforce it, eats first after every hunt and dominates a vast territory of
land for hunting rights.

In a modern/human sense, younger males (teens, early 20s) will
subscribe to the classical form. Like a lion, they will often be the
strongest, most intimidating, hit on all of the women beta males want,
are usually the first to have new sexual experiences and often dominate
a set territory in thier ‘hunt’ for new women, such as local nightclub
scenes.

Older alpha males, however, will evolve the classical traits of stength,
intimidation and dominance beyond the physical by gaining power over
men through thier very means of living and professional reputation. A
powerful business executive, for example, will hire, promote, demote
and fire others according to how well they serve his own interests. Rock
stars, famous actors and other individuals of ‘power’ hold very simular
capabilities over others in thier respective professions.

Younger alpha males who cannot mature into the modern form will
usually cling to the classical form of alpha-maleness for as long as
possible.”
 
And Leefeller, since you are only 3 feet tall and 300 lbs. I would think
most women are more than your equal?

Ta ta, laugh laugh…bring up alphamales will you nemesis2010?  It’s all
your fault, more laughs.

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By Leefeller, August 31, 2010 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment

If men are attracted to fertility, what about guys who are attracted to women for their money or the kiss ass who suddenly is attracted to the bosses daughter and what about the gays? The fertility attraction thing really makes sense with the gays?

Now for some men, this may be true, but making all men sound like bulls running the fence seems a tad over stated. If you need an explanation of bulls running the fence, I can fill you in. 

Me thinks someone is stretching their brain again?

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By Leefeller, August 31, 2010 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

Women have always been equal in my eyes or even superior to men in several ways, what I find amusing is some regions promote the opposite,  I could list a few, but needless to say I do not know all of them nor enough time on on my hands to list them here. 

She, I checked out the Alpha website and found it interesting they have a male Lyon as their mascot, though I am not an expert on Lyons, but it is my contention, female Lyons are the alphaboss? Damn small print too!...  I will check it out again later after I get my new monocle and have more time on me hands.

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By Malcontent, August 31, 2010 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

By elisalouisa, September 1

Glad we found some common ground.

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By elisalouisa, August 31, 2010 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment

You make some good points Malcontent as to men being biologically wired to be attracted to fertility. Since a man can reproduce well into his 80’s the wiring remains throughout the years.  Women aren’t so fortunate, our reproductive cycle is not as long. Why should men be “challenged” by “mature” women if that is what a mature woman does. I absolutely agree. You are also
correct, we are not the same but we are equal.

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By Malcontent, August 31, 2010 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis,

@ Malcontent, TD3, PatrickHenry, Night-Gaunt, Elisa, Shenonymous Leefellar, and anyone else who is reading:

“Will you good Knights of the “vision of the anointed” openly condemn the gods of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity as well as all adherents to those religious dogmas as being sexists and promoters of child abuse and torture?”

Aside from elisalouisa, I don’t see anyone here defending them.
I have considered religious indoctrination to be child abuse since my youth. On the other hand while I can (and often do) rail against religion and it’s violence and perversion of rational thought, I find I have to temper such thoughts when actually dealing with believers.

On the one hand, I find belief in the bible to be batshit insane. On the other, I don’t wish to approach the 90th percentile of the public with such an attitude. I am socially impaired enough, already.

For the record, I never said you were sexist, only that the wording of your post came off as sexist. But, then again, you probably are. I know I am. I don’t have an issue with this. I was just pointing out how, by using “politically incorrect” language, you distract from otherwise good points. Why create the distraction?

I believe women to by my equal, under the law and intellectually. (Well, same percentages as men anyway.) But, to claim we are the same, is both delusional and if true, would be disappointing. I may complain that I don’t understand women, a lot. But, it’s probably a good thing.

By Shenonymous, August 31 at 7:14 pm

” They are more attracted to the young nubile woman who
appreciatively seem more interesting sex partners than women who
might be more mature and present some challenge to their “manhood.”

I am sure I will regret going here…

Have you considered the idea that men are biologically wired to be attracted to fertility, regardless of their conscious desires? Or that your ego may play more of a part than you consciously realize, in your contention that men are merely intimidated by the “challenge” of “mature” women? (I know I wish I was as attractive as I once was.)

I am sure you already have considered this. But instead chose to post what you did. Men are pigs. I guess sexism is semi-universal.

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By Leefeller, August 31, 2010 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

Truth dig number 3, quoting scripture just like proclaiming his opinion I see!

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By elisalouisa, August 31, 2010 at 6:58 pm Link to this comment

Again Nemesis, it is difficult to go back and inject yourself into a time space long gone. Many of the religious observances were in keeping for what was beneficial to the people at that time such as circumcision. The purpose of removing the foreskin was a matter of cleanliness when baths and showers were not readily available. The family unit was important to survival. Thus the
pleasure of sex was at times denied women in order that they would not stray. It was not to inflict suffering. Dietary observances were for health reasons, etc. Having observed the Jewish High Holidays for some years I have a genuine respect for Judaism as well as Christianity.Religious institutions have brought people through many difficult periods. We are entering a new era and it will not be the religious institutions who are in the foreground of such responsibilities. What this new era shall evolve to is anyone’s guess. What does the future hold? Perhaps two classes, the power/elite and the virtual slave class? If I had to put money on it, I would say yes for that is what our country is heading for.

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By elisalouisa, August 31, 2010 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment

I do understand the distinction She, thank you and I actually hesitated to make such a remark. I also asked if the phrase “a male on the hunt is a dangerous animal’ is sexist. You preferred not to pick up on that. I could go into that more deeply as to why but I won’t.  I must agree again with TD3’s last remark.
Additional Note: Observing this board right now I might also ask, “Is a female on the hunt a dangerous animal.” Sexist remark?
Response: Since I asked the question of both sexes it is not a sexist remark.

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By truedigger3, August 31, 2010 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous wrote addressing elisalouisa:
” ....... but maybe you don’t understand the distinction? “
——————————————————————————

Shenonymous,

I don’t know if your arrogance, pedantry, and outright conceit and the constant desire to put people down are classified as alphamale, alphafemale or alphaunisex behaviour.
Although I am an atheist, Christ got it right when he said: take the log from your own eye before asking your neighbour to take a tiny straw from his eye.

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By nemesis2010, August 31, 2010 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment

II.

@ Malcontent, TD3, PatrickHenry, Night-Gaunt, Elisa, Shenonymous Leefellar, and anyone else who is reading:

Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, is a male dominated and oriented religion that treats women like chattel. Within Islamic beliefs the voice of a women is only worth half that of a man. Many Muslims practice clitoral circumcision and vaginal infibulation on young girls from about 4 to 12 years of age. This mutilation of female genitalia is usually performed by some old religious hag and not in a hospital by trained professionals. The young girl’s vagina is then sewed closed, except for a small opening to allow the flow of menstrual blood and urine. This procedure gives new meaning to the pain suffered by a woman losing her virginity.

The main reason for this mutilation of child genitalia is to ensure that the husband—a male—is getting unspoiled goods and to deprive the female of sexual pleasure which is to increase the odds against said husband finding himself a cuckold.

The Hebrew god of Judaism allows a father to sell his son and daughter into slavery—including sexual slavery—and discriminates against females by limiting male servitude to a maximum of 7 years while not imposing any time limits for females. This is clearly sexist in nature.

In the same religious books the Hebrew god also forbids men from sleeping with and/or having any contact with a female while she is “unclean” (menstruating) and females were to be separated from others until after a ritual bathing. This is clearly sexual discrimination against women because of their gender.

The Hebrew god also commands that all male infants should have their penises chopped up on the 8th day; genital mutilation that is still widely practiced throughout the Christian and Jewish world today. This is undisputable sexual discrimination against males as there are no commands to mutilate the genitalia of females.

The Hebrew god also discriminates against young virgin males captured in warfare. While the Hebrew god demands that all captured males are to be executed he makes exceptions for young virgin females by allowing them to live in order that Hebrew males might use them for sexual gratification. 

In the Christian New Testament Saul of Tarsus writes:

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.” 1 Timothy 2:11-15

Will you good Knights of the “vision of the anointed” openly condemn the gods of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity as well as all adherents to those religious dogmas as being sexists and promoters of child abuse and torture?

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By nemesis2010, August 31, 2010 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

I.

@ Shenonymous:

She… frankly, I don’t give a rat’s patoot whether your comments were sexist or not. When I read them I busted out laughing and was relieved to see that you were spunky enough to not only take a little jab but dish it out also. I appreciate your sense of humor as well as your ability to structure and articulate your arguments.

Of course you can use my comments; that’s why I wrote them. Why do you have to clean them up? I didn’t write anything that could even be remotely construed as bad(?). Where do you think that boy is going? I hope that you’re not thinking that the kid you are shipping out will ever return, because that boy is about to go through a male right of passage and he isn’t ever coming home again. You’re sending a kid to the U.S.M.C. but after boot camp and ITR the Corps is going to return to you a young man.

Personally all this petty quarreling over comments irks me to no end. Many of the same people who feign outrage at so-called sexist comments will not dare to speak out about Islam and the cruelty perpetrated by animals on females of all ages because of male generated religious beliefs. Watch I’ll demonstrate the hypocrisy and cowardice for you.

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By nemesis2010, August 31, 2010 at 5:52 pm Link to this comment

By Leefeller, August 31 at 6:19 pm

”I had completely forgotten many things about my time in the service.”

A lot of it is for forgetting.

By Leefeller, August 31 at 6:19 pm

”Boot Camp for me was kind of a easy, because my dad was more obnoxious than any DI when it came to yelling and carrying on, though I never had to give my dad 10.”

I can’t say the same. Must have been my attitude.. ya think? Remember that 50 question test worth 2 points each? I missed 1 because I couldn’t hear the question and he refused to repeat it. For that one incorrect answer the jerk off dragged me behind a set of conveniently placed lockers and beat my ass until I couldn’t walk. I had to crawl from behind the lockers. Of course, all the punches were in places that wouldn’t bruise; the stomach mostly and lots of slaps to the face.


There was a kid in our platoon that they harassed day and night. Remember watching TV? Remember having to squat with your arms outstretched and your rifle placed across them and threatened with brig time if you let it fall? That kid suffered that crap almost every night all through boot camp and didn’t break until ITR. At ITR some Cpl. started harassing him and he lost it… tried to kill him with his bayonet. The last time I saw him he was in a straight jacket and on his way to the brig.

I wrote a lot more for She then thought better of it. Would you agree—without getting into any detail—that the one thing her grandson does not want to do is fail to qualify? What I saw happen to the non-quals on pre-qual day no one here would believe.

By Leefeller, August 31 at 6:19 pm

”Oh….I forgot, I have been told by self proclaimed Imbeciles of notoriety, I was never in the Marine Corps!”

I wouldn’t worry about that.

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By PatrickHenry, August 31, 2010 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

Re: nemesis2010, August 31 at 5:16 pm

Damn Nemesis, that commentary about boot camp brought tears to my eyes, no shit.

9/11 is comming up next week, 9 years. 

The evidence continues to come in.  There are many other coincidental occurances which happened on that day, never included in the original investigation.. 

I believe 9/11 needs to be reinvestigated with public oversight. Scientists and intelligence agencies from around the world have expressed doubt with the official version of the event.

We need to clear up the Israel involvment and put some finality to it.  I would rather my Government be investigatiing this than steroid use in major league sports.

Cast a wide net.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 31, 2010 at 4:58 pm Link to this comment

To me sexism isn’t “sexy” by any means.

I find such mental tussling to be like exercising only with many other brains of imperfect strangers (I have some limited knowledge of all of you via our communications so you are not ‘perfect’ as strangers) not for one-up-ones-ship of the alpha male but as a way of all of us sharpening our skills the way chess players are always looking to play stronger opponents. I want to get it right, to understand to the optimum ability I have to what information is available. It may be difficult to separate but I think the nuance is there in what I do. However I am human and have many failings. We are a mixed bag of superior, median, and poor traits. It is up to us and where we are raised and how we are raised as to what comes out the other end that we become ourselves. Maybe Hitchens in this time of imprint vulnerability will find a new template to operate from. I hope it is better than his present one. But then if he is happy with the way he is then good for him.

My peculiar turn of mind puts me in what would be considered a strange place. Also with poor sociability skills alone time is what I have most of. As a TV show my life would be boring to all but me. I can identify with some of the characters of “Bones” & “The Big Bang Theory” but I lack access to real versions of such fictional characters. However here it is just what I write, none of the other things needed for personal interactions that I would fail at so I have an even chance here. All it is is my typing skills and my mind. Much easier.

I will not compromise myself for another, I expect them to accept me as I accept them. No conditions other than civility are needed by me.

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By Shenonymous, August 31, 2010 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

I think you have it wrong elisalouisa.  The talk is not “sex talk.”  It is
about sexism.  There is a very big difference but maybe you don’t
understand the distinction?

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By Shenonymous, August 31, 2010 at 4:28 pm Link to this comment

You forgot one very important alpha, Leefeller, the alphabet.  But
you might have a problem if you alphawhistled Dixie.

N-G as I said, all men are not alike.  But how are you on these
forums, don’t I see you trying to show your mental prowess?  I think
you do have superior skill and have self-taught yourself so you’ve said.
Highly commendable.  You might take the time to a look at the website
articles I noted to see what the besting of others, men, is thought to be
about… and what you may have missed!

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By elisalouisa, August 31, 2010 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

The jest of this thread has now turned to sex, always an interesting subject. Sexist remarks are not a thing of the past on these threads..
Nemesis: “I also take into consideration… and this has nothing to do with gender… the impression that I’m left with by her commentary… that I may be dealing with someone who is not… how can I say this… might be somewhat lacking with respect to emotional stability.” 
elisa: How often has this cheap shot been used by men as a put down? Add that remark to your long list of sexist comments Nemesis.
I am one of the very few on these threads that is not Atheist or Agnostic. Thus all your below-the-belt comments as to religion, God in the sky or whatever could only have been directed at me. No one else filled that bill.  I am also in complete
agreement with the writers I quoted as to the New Atheists. Others on Truthdig may not be quite so convinced and might have agreed with you. That is why we debated, I challenged you comments.  You spewed out 7 pages of nothing with all your pickled brain in use. Your time has been so filled with personal attacks, there seems to be no time left to address my reality filled posts where I point out how you have taken my writing out of context resulting in a complete change of meaning.
Not to worry, sex talk is more interesting. Better keep my thoughts to myself, a male on the hunt is a dangerous animal. Is that a sexist comment???

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By Night-Gaunt, August 31, 2010 at 4:14 pm Link to this comment

I am curious myself since I was never anywhere near that sphere of behavior. I was in the outcast/invisible crowd but I was never harassed.

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By Leefeller, August 31, 2010 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

She,

Boy am I glad I have never classified myself as an alphamale, alphafemale, alphahomosexual or even as an alphaunicorn, though one exception may be,  if one has a dog it would seem most significant to attempt being the alpha pack leader; this according to the dog whistle guy;...... excepting of course if one has a wife.

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By Shenonymous, August 31, 2010 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

Why hello nemesis2010.  That was a very candid post about new
Marine grunts.  I’m supposing he will be a grunt, but he’s pretty
smart, but probably not uniquely smart and plenty of boys these
days are smart.  Yes, we will see.  I’m asking your permission to
pass your comments along to him (with a little cleaning up that is)? 
I know about five of you ex-Marines, and everyone has about the
same language but two really control it when they speak to me which
is much appreciated as they show a certain respect not usual for that
crowd.  Call that a smidgen sexist it’s all right.  So semper fi
backatcha.  I will handle the boy’s chosen future just fine and
I have no fear.  I will not be conflicted.  My atheism is firm and well
known in my family and friends .  Some accept it others don’t. Such is
life.  It is not under siege.  I love the boy and I will always be proud of
his intelligent way he goes about his life, already.  But I do not
appreciate the male military minded nor their proclivity for war.  Call
that sexist if you want, that is all right too.  Truth is the history of war
is the same history as men’s. 

RE:  your criticism of my alleged sexist commentary.  Yes, it did have to
do with a perception of men, but it is not only within my province, it is
a consensus among my professional peers, that ”Boys are raised to be
real namby-pamby thumbsuckers.  Not ?that the males ought to go out
and smash each others private parts, ?which I gather is what they really
like to do as an indication of power, ?but males do need more of ?the
rational principle working in their ?infected brains.  Maybe in a hundred
years???  I do believe in ?evolution.”

I will elaborate a bit more: maybe more than a bit…since you brought
up the concept of alphamale-ism.

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By Shenonymous, August 31, 2010 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

From my long life observations most of the men I’ve known, both
intimately and within my sphere of occupation, which has been
predominantly academia, although I have worked outside in the
“ordinary” world of business so I would say I had a fairly good
sampling of the kinds of men there are.  I come from a very large
Mediterranean blooded family with many males in the blue collar
fields and very traditional in their thinking.  Now I would not say
that all men are alike.  And I have known a few remarkably
enlightened ones, who would not think of berating a woman under
any circumstances and in the company of other men as well.  It is
because their minds are a cut above.  They see all people equally as
human beings deserving the respect they earn with no reference to
their sex.

The predominance of the band of men I’ve known are wannabe
alphamales, and in my estimation were raised to be mamma’s boys
actually unbeknownst in their consciousness, unawares.  But their
actions, their often cowardly and needy behavior evidences their spoiled
and pampered nature.  That does not however impede their personal
view that they are alphamales.  Alphamales have a modus operandi and
people react to them in a certain way.  And while women flock to their
loins, they are often unable to establish an abiding and healthy
relationship with a woman because of their conceits.  There is a most
popular rather malignant TV show these days that have won the top
emmy award for three years in a row called Mad Men, highly popular,
that shows some of the worst behavior human men can have, and that
display this phenomenon of Alphamales as nearly all of them compete
for the top position and show very little respect for disposable women. 
Alpahmales supposedly are emotionally mature and full of compassion. 
Perhaps.  They are more attracted to the young nubile woman who
appreciatively seem more interesting sex partners than women who
might be more mature and present some challenge to their “manhood.”

There is the paradigm alphamale that very few achieve and some of this
can superficially be seen at a website Philosophy-The Alpha Reality
http://alphadominance.com/?page_id=3
that lists all the virtuous qualities an alphamale supposedly has.  Of the
scores of men I’ve known, I judge that four have achieved most of
those qualities and I am proud to know them.  The comments attached
to that webdefintion is as telling as the dearth of those who make the
grade and worth the humor to read for a touch of reality.

Now a huge part of my life’s experiences with males has been in the
classroom from K through 12 and then into the university classroom for
a total of over 25 years and I’ve seen boys and girls then young men
and women and their behaviors. My professional colleagues to a one
agree.  When I say thumbsucking, mannn I am not lying.  A great many
of the elementary school boys do that way more in number than the
occasional girl.  And crybaby is just another word for the boy whose
ego gets bruised even a teensie bit.  The quotient of narcissism is
unbelievable.  Lasting well into college.  I have first hand empirical
knowledge of these pampered soon to be alphamale wannabees.  It
strikes me as very defensive your calling my remarks sexists which on
the athletic field the boys do try to emasculate each other.  I saw it, the
male coaches saw it and remembered their experiences and when I raise
my eyebrows to them, they just shrugged their shoulders.  Ah so. 

Another revealing observation may be seen at
http://tinyurl.com/34e2c9a
It might be too long for sustained attention of Truthdippers but it is I
think worth the time taken.

Okay, so take further issue with me if you must, nemesis2010, but I
know of where I speak and it isn’t sexist in the least.  If a man earns my
respect it is only because he is respectful.

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By truedigger3, August 31, 2010 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

Re:By nemesis2010, August 31 at 5:16

nemesis2010 wrote addressing me:
“TD3, you cannot make the claim that there is no such thing as an Arab lobby when it is an established fact that there most definitely is an Arab lobby. Even Latvia has a lobby.”

Also nemesis2010 wrote addressing me:

“When you come out swinging at “the Jews” (in a Jew vs. Arab quarrel with you favoring what most in this country view as the enemy) you leave yourself vulnerable to the “anti-Semite” .............”
————————————————————————-

nemesis2010,

1) What you call Arab lobbying, I call paying extortion/protection money by bag men. Of course bag men will never register as bag men but will register as “lobbyists”. For example, if a local businessman make cammpaign contributions to some city hall council members to get favourable zoning or tax breaks that is lobbying, but if he pays the Mafia Chief “protection” money that is not lobbying that is extortion. As you said compare the results of the Zionist lobbying with the so called Arab lobbying. In this case the Mafia Chief and City hall are the same entity and treats two businessmen differently from the start because one of them has much closer ties with City Hall????!!!

2) I NEVER came out swinging at the Jews. I attacked Zionism and Zionists but NEVER the Jews. I assume your memory had fooled you. Do you have an example of ME, coming out swinging at the Jews?. Are you equating Zionism with Judaism?!

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By Night-Gaunt, August 31, 2010 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment

The first: is I am male and 53, mostly self educated and have never been in the military. Second: women are still not considered equal as people in our society. So when they attack a male for sexism it isn’t the same. Let me check to see what sexist things were said about you by them. If so I am against it but then men in general and Marines in particular take on much harder things than name calling by women against them. (Sexual thoughts are just normal.)

“Women always demand equality and then when it shows up they can’t stand more than a couple of seconds of it before they’re screaming “sexist!” It’s a cop out and quite frankly I thought you above such cheap tactics. Apparently I’m MISTAKEN in my initial assessment of you and will have to reevaluate.” Nemisis2010

Couldn’t find a sexist remark against you by elisouisa or Shenonymous but this gem is yours. “Women always…” is sexist on the face of it. Just substitute any other grouping of people for “women” and it will still be wrong. “Always” used in relation to any group will be wrong somewhere because it must be 100% and very few things are that, especially people who are too complex for such simplistic pigeon holing. Better to use “some but not all” or “most but not all” would be an improvement but the latter would still be suspect. So the blinders are still there. It is something we all have about something. When we have evolved away from that we will function much better as a group for being a group with different abilities working together is our strength. It allows us to survive so far.

Hitchens has his own blinders in relation to our country making war on others killing millions to do it violate many treaties which are Constitutional law in our country and he doesn’t care. NeoCons tend to be religious but what they want is not metaphysical but real. Land, resources, wealth etc. That is the mind set of empire not of a republic. Just like the NeoCon/NeoLiberal axis that controls so much of our country and foreign relations.

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By Leefeller, August 31, 2010 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis commented;

“I don’t believe in any Left vs. Right politics. To me it’s all bullshit. Politics is nothing more than different levels of “Haves” and Have Nots.”

Most appreciated comment and opinion, .....very similar to my own opinion,  labels are used for gathering the simple minded for pigeonholing divisive opinions.

So, “Right”, “Left”, or “New Atheist” all bullshit used for gathering the mindlessness of those flockers in their flocks!

By the way Nemesis, I had totally forgotten about the Fat Farm in Boot Camp. Unlike Photograph neuron Patrick Henry, I had completely forgotten many things about my time in the service.

Boot Camp for me was kind of a easy, because my dad was more obnoxious than any DI when it came to yelling and carrying on, though I never had to give my dad 10. So I found Boot Camp not so bad, kind of mellow actually ! Oh….I forgot, I have been told by self proclaimed Imbeciles of notoriety, I was never in the Marine Corps!

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By nemesis2010, August 31, 2010 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

@ Shenonymous:

Well, it’s his life She, you can’t live it for him. We’d probably be a much better nation if all males were made to serve 2-3 years before being allowed to enter college.

If he isn’t a typical U.S. teenager with 3 to 5 Xs in his clothing size and at least fairly fit he’ll get through the physical stuff well enough as long as he realizes that it isn’t high school sports or the Boy Scouts. (If he isn’t fit and he’s overweight, he’d better get on a diet and start getting fit because from what I saw the “fat farm” isn’t a fun place to be.)

The toughest part is mental. It’s psychological torture. Boot camp is where they either break you or make you. They’re trying to weed out the non-hackers and as bad as that may sound to you it is for the benefit of your grandson and all the others. He has to look beyond what is happening at the moment, knowing that it all has a purpose, which in the long run, is beneficial for all concerned. They’re not trying to kill him, it’s just going to seem that way. He’s going to be called names (many of them sexist derogatory names for female body parts.), and humiliated like never before or will ever be again, and PTed like nothing that he can even imagine now. But if he keeps his head screwed on right, he’ll get through it fine. Attitude! Guys like all that ball-busting macho shit. Especially at 18! (oh sweet jeebus on the cracker that is so sexist!)

Look at the bright side… at least he didn’t join the Navy and become a damn squid. (<- inter-service rivalry joke not to be taken seriously.)

If you’re concerned about his being shipped to Afghanistan or Iraq relax… that won’t happen for a while. He’s not only boot camp ahead of him but also ITR and schools for his specific MOS; unless he’s in a grunt unit he’ll probably not see combat as you are thinking of it. There are something like 9-10 people supporting every grunt in a combat zone. And if he’s in the Air Wing it’ll be even safer for him and he’ll have training that’ll help him with employment when he musters out.

In 7 years of war our KIA numbers are incredible. I don’t think Americans really appreciate that. Be glad that it isn’t Viet Nam or Korea. And remember, Marine Corps training is top notch. He’ll be well-trained and more able to defend himself than granny will ever really know –provided the goddamned politicians and liberal anuses in this country allow him to defend himself. You just may be in for a world view outlook adjustment.

Actually I’m more concerned about you and how you’re going to handle the internal contradictions that you’ll soon be facing. He’ll be trained, but you have no training for what you’re about to face. How are you going to handle the internal contradiction of being an anti-war advocate while swelling with pride when bragging to your friends about your U.S. Marine grandson? And believe me She… U gonna brag and u gonna swell. It’s an enigma! You might even accept jeebus before it’s all over.

He’ll soon be one of the few and the proud! And it’ll be with him the rest of his life! Tell him that I wish him the best and semper fi!

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By nemesis2010, August 31, 2010 at 1:25 pm Link to this comment

By Night-Gaunt, August 30 at 4:42 pm

”Only if she wants to do it for you and you decline. Or you wolf whistle at her when she walks by. Or you talk down to her by saying you are using less of your brain against her because she is female. That is sexist.“

I don’t decline any woman holding a door for me. And I believe wolf-whistling is crude and a guaranteed fail. I will have to admit that, depending on the woman, I have had what many might consider impure thoughts.

By Night-Gaunt, August 30 at 4:42 pm

”but we will help you just as I would want others to help me if I displayed such social and moral blindness.“

As for the last part (cited above)… ummmmm… are you, She, and Malcontent ready?  I think it’s time for a reality check.

@ Night-Gaunt, Malcontent, and Shenonymous:

First, I want thank each of you for your sincere critiques about my so-called sexist comments. There is no way that such profound and obviously heart-felt critiques cannot have an effect on my future behavior. Your comments have already sharpened my awareness to a point where I feel compelled to ask the three of you the following:

Why is it that your “outrage” about sexist commentary came alive after—and only after—the supposed sexist comments made by a male to a female and totally ignored when the unquestionably sexist comments made by a female to a male appeared many days PRIOR to my posts? Why wasn’t your “sexist radar” activated when She’s comments appeared? Why wasn’t She even aware of the sexist content of her comments before posting them? Is this not evidence of a duplicitous nature and… well… what else can we can we call it… hypocrisy on your part?

My questions are rhetorical and you needn’t bother to answer them because I know the answers and will once again put my arse into the line of fire. You ignored the sexist comments by She because in the unwritten code of the Anointed’s vision it is totally acceptable for females to criticize males—especially white males—because males are still seen as the stronger and female as the weaker, thus there is always an open season on males.

You may not agree with that but it is the truth. And any male who denies that he treats women, because of gender, differently than he does males in some—perhaps even most—situations is a lying s-o-bee! A man who would treat women exactly as he does other males wouldn’t be able to score in a bordello with a $100 bill sticking out of each ear!

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By nemesis2010, August 31, 2010 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

By Night-Gaunt, August 30 at 4:42 pm

”Nemesis2010, what makes Dershowitz a Liberal in your eyes?”

The man defines himself as a liberal. Does he not have a right to define himself? You may—and obviously do—disagree with that but it’s strictly a matter of opinion. I don’t believe in any Left vs. Right politics. To me it’s all bullshit. Politics is nothing more than different levels of “Haves” and Have Nots.” 

I have to admit to more than just a little schadenfreude with all the strum and drang these conflicts are causing. I can’t help but get a good laugh as the façades come falling down and expose the vulnerable humanity behind all the true believer rhetoric and phony absolutism. Watch She and how much she’ll have to struggle with her stated positions and values should her grandson ever be sent into a combat situation. Life is not black and white… it’s a constant struggle with grey matter. Our altruistic nature is much like a magnetic field… the further out into the parameter, the weaker the force. It’s like Carlin said many years ago:

”The first obligation of any organism is to survive. The second is to reproduce. Survival is more important than fucking. Okay? Pacifism is a nice idea, but it can get you killed. We’re not there yet folks; evolution is slow, small pox is fast.” –George Carlin

The torture issue is—IMO—one of the most ridiculous issues of modern times. The only difference today is that torture is advertised as an accepted policy. (I believe the motivation was for legal reasons and to discourage potential enemy) Anyone dumb enough to really believe—despite all of the historical evidence to prove otherwise—that the U.S. or any of its allies have not habitually practiced torture has his/her head up his/her posterior.

Do I believe that torture should be part of our policy? No, I do not. But life is simply NOT black and white. This liberal position on torture is much like the religious’ positions on ethics and morals. They stupidly believe that ethics and morals aren’t situational when they most surely are. They want to nail their absolutist soles to the natives’ feet when they can’t even agree what the hell their own moral and ethical codes are amongst themselves.

I believe that torture and the lengths to which we go as a race into devising new ways to perfect torture is one of the blackest marks on Homo sapiens’ history. 

I’m very liberal to moderate to conservative on many issues. What does that make me? To me I’m simply normal.

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By nemesis2010, August 31, 2010 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

By Malcontent, August 30 at 11:12 pm

”I cannot read your mind, but statements such as,“Thank your non-existent god that you are female because if you were a man I’d release the 3/4 of my brain that I put on hold when dealing with you.”,  make people wonder what you really think of women. Your posts are too concise and well articulated to be letting crap like that drag them down.“

I think lots of things of women. I’m an Alpha male and I love what evolution has done for the female of our race. Your premise—IMO—is flawed. You’re questioning my view of women on my comments about and to a single individual female.

The low esteem in which I hold elisa’s opinions and political positions have nothing at all to do with her being a female Homo sapien. No more than they have anything to do with whether or not she’s fat or skinny, tall of short, pretty or clock-stopping ugly. I don’t care if she’s a democrat or a republican or Nibirian. I don’t care if she’s black, white, yellow, green, purple, brown, or chartreuse. But… that said… I do take into consideration her being a female when it comes to unloading on her with respect to what I could really do by stringing certain words together. If that is sexist in your opinion… so be it.

I also take into consideration… and this has nothing to do with gender… the impression that I’m left with by her commentary… that I may be dealing with someone who is not… how can I say this… might be somewhat lacking with respect to emotional stability. Does this make me sexist?

With respect to her gender I admit that I’ve taken into consideration that being a female and approximate age—a grandmother—that there may be physiological reasons behind her appearing to be flakey (is that too strong a word?) and/or of questionable emotional stability?  Does that make me sexist to consider what might be a viable reason behind what I’m dealing with?

Do you really think that I’d dare to engage Shenonymous with ¾ of my brain tied behind my back? Not only would that be very stupid but I’d also quickly be publicly humiliated. And just in case you and Night-Gaunt might be females—I don’t want to know!—I’d throw your names in along with Shenonymous’.

I’m an old man from a very different era and this is one of the reasons we humans don’t live forever. Old gives way to the new and the new generations have to work out things for themselves. I mentioned to a friend of mine a few days ago that one of the great tragedies of life is that when we finally have attained the wisdom to live life well, there’s too little time left to do it.

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By nemesis2010, August 31, 2010 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

Neil deGrasse Tyson - World to End In 2012…or Not
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJjQMwEjC1I

All the crazy exposed in less than 3 minutes.

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By nemesis2010, August 31, 2010 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

@ PatrickHenry & TD3

I want you both to know that I’m as much against the Israeli/Zionist lobby and its high-jacking of American foreign policy as you are -probably even more so. I seethed when I think of the Israel/Zionist lobby, and the damage that it and the politicians who have implemented Israeli/Zionist goals as our foreign policy norm have done.

What you need to understand—IMO—is that when you make unfounded and bizarro world claims you don’t help the cause. You cannot expect to make some of the claims that you—and others—have made and not expect to be laughed at, ridiculed, and seen as a mad-hatter.

TD3, you cannot make the claim that there is no such thing as an Arab lobby when it is an established fact that there most definitely is an Arab lobby. Even Latvia has a lobby!

What you can argue TD3, is the effectiveness and/or the vociferousness (how loud a voice it has) of the Arab lobby in comparison to the Israeli/Zionist lobby. You can also argue how the “Is It Good For Israel First Foreign Policy” policy standard has been detrimental to the U.S. You can argue how Israeli interests and U.S. interests are seldom mutually beneficial. You can argue how, more often than not, our Israeli/Zionist influenced foreign policy benefits Israel and not the U.S. One of my favorites is to argue it from an untrustworthy ally. Israel—IMO—is no real friend of the U.S. Israel has stabbed us in the back on many different occasions and the American people should be outraged.

Always argue the issue from an America first perspective. When you come out swinging at “the Jews” (in a Jew vs. Arab quarrel with you favoring what most in this country view as the enemy) you leave yourself vulnerable to the “anti-Semite” and “holocaust denier” labels which then put you in the same room with that lunatic in Iran, Ahmadinejad. And that plays right into the hands of the Israeli/Zionist proponents.

What I’m saying is that you’ve more than enough material to make a case and push for a different foreign policy standard without having to make stuff up. 

Patrick, to stick to the dancing Israelis and Israel was responsible for 9/11 is not going to win you any points. Probably the major reason, or one of the major reasons, that story is still around is due to the, reportedly, setting up of the camera and preparing to film an event for which there was foreknowledge. And that comes from the oft misquoted statement by the neighbor, the old lady, who claims that she saw them dancing and celebrating. If you read the 20/20 transcript in its entirety you’ll find that she also claims that she saw the van park. That negates the possibility of the setting up of the camera BEFORE the first attack. All of this is dubious at best and doesn’t help your cause.

Why not approach it from the Mossad agents being in the country as more evidence that Israel is no friend of the U.S.? How many times has Israel been caught spying on us? How many Israeli spies are serving time and have done time for spying on the U.S. What the hell kind of an ally is that? What needs to be done is to dispel this false premise that Israeli/Zionist goals are beneficial to the U.S. and that Israel is a worthy ally.

Would it really surprise anyone to find out that Israel had prior knowledge of the attack and didn’t warn U.S. officials? No, but you’re never going to prove that and by continuing to hammer away at all those unsubstantiated claims and theories you destroy your own credibility. Hammer away at the many negatives that the Israel/Zionist lobby and continued unqualified support of Israel will mean to our security and reputation. Use the many credible venues available to you; not the tin-foil hat comedy material.

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By Leefeller, August 31, 2010 at 12:00 pm Link to this comment

Well…..I do miss the Unyuns in my Gibson!

The Great Unyun promotes humility and seems fair as as deities go, this is why she is my ditty of choice. No temples for her,  I made an Unyun Shrine out of the old Outhouse; if you remember the one Billy the Goat knocked down while I was in it. The Unyun is very pleased, she really likes the moon on the door, she says it seems kind of spiritual. 

You know, the Unyun prompts, but never preaches,(An absolutism?)  ..... she believes in humility and Tequila should be part of ones life. Though the Great Unyun can hold here Tequila, she has been known on occasion to dance on a table with a lamp shade on her head.

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By Shenonymous, August 31, 2010 at 8:52 am Link to this comment

Well, Leefeller, I guess in her great wisdom, the Great Unyun has
absolved you of any alleged crime.  She has freed you from the
bondage you might have enjoyed otherwise.  All jails are not alike,
just like not all Christians or Atheists are not alike.  Or Muslims,
Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, or Platonists, Aristotelians, Heraclitans,
Parmenidians, Pythagorians, blah blah blah (to use ThomasG’s favorite
descriptive term! hahaha)

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By Leefeller, August 31, 2010 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

Thanks She you have remanded me, I just realized my subscription to “Guns and Girls” just expired thank goodness,  I still have several more issues of Mad Magazine coming and of course I have a lifetime subscription to Holy Heretics.

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By Shenonymous, August 31, 2010 at 7:56 am Link to this comment

I happen to have all their books.  And have read them. 
And I have an excellent version of the Bible, The Oxford, and a copy
of the Qur’an, Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation, the Pentateuch, Tanakh
as well as the entire Torah, the Nevi’ims earlier and later, the K’tuvim,
David H. Stern’s translation, and the Upanishads, the RIg Vedas, the
Mahayana texts, Dowell, Muller and Kakakuu translation, and writings
of Zoroaster, Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, and several other religious/
philosophical works.  Now what?

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By elisalouisa, August 31, 2010 at 7:31 am Link to this comment

I would suggest to that those interested in New Atheism read the writings of the New Atheists and also the authors I have suggested.  Then with such knowledge acquired, come back and comment. Some on these threads have made it a practice to comment on Chris Hedges writings, without reading such columns, even boasting of this accomplishment. Such posts have always been in a negative tone, I suspect such commenters believing Chirs Hedges is also self righteous. Not reading was has been written gives way to misconstruing what the subject is really about thus allowing preconceived notions to be the only basis for comment. One can go to Amazon and read pages from such books, not the entire book of course thus a flavor of the writings can be savored. Also, go to a bookstore and read a few pages from the book of your choice. Try it, you might like it.

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By Shenonymous, August 31, 2010 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

Again, Leefeller, you show unusual insight.  It must be the continued
beneficent influence of the Great Unyun.  If Hitchens is amoral
according to the measure of morality of those who have codified
their morals found within a particular religion or other philosophical
perspective, then that measure is what is called provincial, or
parochial meaning very limited and narrow in scope and outlook. 
While each has the common right, at least in this country, to their
own impervious opinion, applying those narrow views to others is
a travesty and a burlesque and antithetical to the freedom they
themselves fiercely defend, for themselves. It is a perfect example
of perversion.  But the critic(s) of Hitchens’ morals, are often
unconscious of their own perversion.  Here one size does not fit
all, and hypocrisy is the rule.  It is precisely as you say, reactionary. 
But I think these critics do not understand the word ‘reactionary.’
 
So I will here in my usual style give a definition: of, pertaining to,
marked by, or favoring reaction, esp. extreme conservatism or
rightism in politics and/or religion; opposing political or social
change, and any deviation from the believed religion.  In addition to
being applied to ideas and beliefs, it describes persons, as reactionary
persons.  Reactionaries respond to external stimuli and are influenced
by arousing emotionally charged prejudices and biases, hence are easily
manipulated by those who are seen as powerful in particular lines of
thought.

It is, and I hate to express it this way, but ‘pissing in the wind’ to ask
those with the missionary’s mind to not proselytize their beliefs and
keep their opinions to themselves as they would violate the dogmas
that provide the roots of their beliefs and cause extreme constipation
both of body and of mind. 

Why do you suppose there are no Ziggurats to Atheism?  Why no
pamphlets or door bangers preaching the virtues of Atheism?  I would
say it was because most atheists see the absurdity in trying to convince
any one who is indoctrinated.  Those with a natural proclivity to
disbelieve will find their way to atheist company.  Although the more
outspoken atheists, Dawkins in particular, is involved with signs on the
sides of busses that are running around London
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Bus_Campaign
And in Washington DC in November 2008 with the slogan “Why believe
in a God? Just be good for goodness’ sake” wujabaleeve reported by Fox
News, in November 2008.  And with some modification to their original
side-of-busses campaign in Italy was able to launch “The good news is
there are millions of atheists in Italy. The excellent news is they believe
in freedom of expression” in Genoa.  Spain also allowed bus
advertisements,” “Probablemente Dios no existe. Deja de preocuparte y
goza de la vida”  in Barcelona, Madrid and Valencia.  What does this say
about the rise of social atheism?  Intelligently, no investment in
buildings is necessary, thus saving millions and millions of atheist
dollars when the message is literally carried all around the cities.  Not
having a building does prevent the irrational religionists from bombing
or setting fire to that which they perceive as competitors of the mind.

How one conducts one’s life is the important thing for anyone choosing
to live in a society.  Seems like there is much need to carry on a
discussion of this question of gods or no gods and moral, immorality,
and the amoral.  This seems to be the correct venue, at least for now.

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By Leefeller, August 31, 2010 at 6:19 am Link to this comment

Calling Hitchens and others New Atheists, seems just a new name calling for simplicity’s sake, why not just say it elisalouisa , Htichens is a heretic who gathered attention and a degree of notability, which seems a threat to those opposed to what he says?

It seems the reactionary ones here are the wet their paints religious, who find Hitchens a threat to their horn of plenty, they find it necessary to attack Htichens morals or what they say is his lack of morals by calling him amoral, since burning at the stake may be frowned on. 

Are the self righteous pious so threatened in their beliefs they write books to support them?
Dogmas, ......anything new here?  Well, possibly written opposition by Hitchens and others,  a calling to the carpet, not so flattering or polite opposition at that?

What seems to be happening as I see it, some Atheists seem to have found their footing, sort of coming out of the closet sort to speak, voicing their opinions in numbers which seem threatening and this is unacceptable to those institutions who have built blind belief on foundations of sand.

It is still my feeling religion and those opposed could keep their opinions to themselves, except I do not see rows of temples erected in the name of non belief, amoral pamphlets handed out on street corners nor groups of heretics banging on doors preaching their unbelief.

Who really seems the reactionary here?

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By elisalouisa, August 30, 2010 at 10:07 pm Link to this comment

You Malcontent  are not unbiased in this debate. If those reading these words want confirmation of that statement scroll down to Malcontent’s August 20 post at 2:31 am. My considerable writings clearly state my views and opinions as to the New Atheists. I am in agreement with the writers I have quoted, all with substantial credentials. To name a few: David Bentley Hart, Max Blumental, PZ Myers, Robert Wright, Chris Hedges, Theodore Dalrynple. Nemesis has seen fit to trash such writings, including me in his diatribes. I consider it an honor. 
All writers I have quoted question the political writings of the New Atheists and some go so far as to call them a Reactionary Movement. You and others may disagree.  Such controversy is still permitted . . .  although I am beginning to wonder.

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By Malcontent, August 30, 2010 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

By elisalouisa, August 30 at 9:36 pm Link to this comment

“So you are connected to reality Nemesis and others are delusional. The reality that demands war and “get them before they get you ” philosophy. You will say anything and I suspect do anything to win a point. Part of the New Atheist philosophy.”

I really don’t want to get into the entire argument between you and Nemesis. I actually agree with your assessment of sexism on his part. But, I want to take issue with the same unsubstantiated contention you have been spouting since the beginning of this thread. The one that Nemesis completely invalidated many times over.

I know you feel attacked when people…um…well….attack your beliefs. But it is not an attack on your person, when it is pointed out that everything you claim about the, so called “new atheists”, is not only wrong, but in complete contradiction to the reality we exist in.

Even if it were true that atheists have bad ideas about foreign policy, it is even more true that atheists are a persecuted minority and not electable to anything in this country.

It is my bullshit supposition that your world view allows you to equate what you find offensive in foreign policy and philosophy. Thus when someone responds to this, they cannot help but point out how they think your world view is distorted by your beliefs and you take offense at your beliefs being trashed.

Perhaps if you could add some factual substance to your contentions, people could respond to that instead.

@Nemesis -

I cannot read your mind, but statements such as,“Thank your non-existent god that you are female because if you were a man I’d release the 3/4 of my brain that I put on hold when dealing with you.”,  make people wonder what you really think of women. Your posts are too concise and well articulated to be letting crap like that drag them down.

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By elisalouisa, August 30, 2010 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

So you are connected to reality Nemesis and others are delusional. The reality that demands war and “get them before they get you ” philosophy. You will say anything and I suspect do anything to win a point. Part of the New Atheist philosophy. I should have known that when on another thread sometime back
you verbally attacked Inherit the Wind’s father and also mother in a crude, vicious,  sexual manner. It was a low point on these threads and ITW was gracious enough not to respond in kind.  I knew when I got into this dialogue it was more or less a David and Goliath situation but that didn’t stop me.
Most posters will not check back to see what was really said and your superior-manner -put-down approach that reeks with sexism leads one to be on the defensive when really, an attack is what is called for. Example of twists that you and the New Atheists are quite accomplished at.

Real dialogue:
elisalouisa, Aust 28 at 2:21 pm last paragraph
Nemesis And it isn’t atheists electing the extremists in different parts of the world. It’s the religious. Atheists simply haven’t the numbers.
?elisa: Yes, numbers are important, not of people but of amount of tax payer money that is not used for the benefit of the people.  Money, money, money that can buy just about anything and everything including the Kurds. How many millions did your Wolfowitz dish out to the Kurds for them to think of him as a blood brother? ..... . . . . . . . . .  So again, you are not looking at the right numbers. Count the WMDs a nation possesses, not the population of the enemy.

Nemesis reconstructed It:
elisa”Yes, numbers are important, not of people but of amount of tax payer money that is not used for the benefit of the people. BLAH BLAH BLAH”

Nemesis:Do you see the mental disconnect, the incoherency, the delusion and inability to address the issue? 
**********************
Your quote is out of context.There is no disconnect here. The first and last sentence of my comment connects very well. The disconnect is with you who is desperate to make it appear otherwise. What sort of male super brain does it take to make that idiotic statement that was your response to your quote out of context.!!!
I am in good company with Max Blumenthal who has the courage to tell it the way it is.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 30, 2010 at 12:42 pm Link to this comment

Help me out here Night-Gaunt. If I hold a door open for a female because I was taught that that was the proper social norm-and it clearly is a form of discriminating because of gender—that makes me a sexist?

Only if she wants to do it for you and you decline. Or you wolf whistle at her when she walks by. Or you talk down to her by saying you are using less of your brain against her because she is female. That is sexist. Just as much as when Biden praised Obama about being “clean” was racist. Biden could not fathom it. You have the same problem in that area. A certain blindness, but we will help you just as I would want others to help me if I displayed such social and moral blindness.

Nemesis2010, what makes Dershowitz a Liberal in your eyes? To me he is an evangelist of the Zionists can do no wrong in Israel tract and that isn’t liberal in the least no matter how you define it. But I wait for you to show me where I am in error on this. Tell me if a food is still good for you if you start adding poison to it? Can a Liberal still be one while they advocate for torture for any reason under any circumstance? Can a Conservative? I value your opinion.

I feel for you Shenonymous but unfortunately one of the benefits, for the oligarchs, is that a poor economy lets open the flood gates to military service so a draft is rendered unnecessary. [Especially since they will now let in everybody no matter their criminal background or mental state.] The GWOT will grind many a good man and women into fodder for the growth of more holy warriors for the next push at empire. Wasn’t it Plato who said that only the dead are finished with war?

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By Leefeller, August 30, 2010 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

Forgive me Great Unyun, for I have been naughty!

Yesterday I made the bad decision to have Unyun Rings with my Hamburger at Dirty Dicks Pub.

So it is with overwhelming guilt-ridden unconsciousness I shall count 50 “Great Unyns” and drink one Gibson sans Unyun!

Patrick Henry, I was in the Boy Scouts and do not remember everything in the good old Boy Scout Manual, but I didn’t reup,  in the Boy Scouts either!

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By elisalouisa, August 29, 2010 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

nemesis2010my pointing out to elisa—not you—that as much as she feigns that goody-two-shoes-woe-is-me bit that she isn’t the saint that she tries to make herself out to be and that others are too often fooled into believing.

This statement really is mind boggling. Is it because I mention my spiritual part?  That is because most of you mention your non-belief and make a point to berate prayer and meditation which I then must defend. No one has ever called me goody-two-shoes much less woe-is-me and let me assure you that is not how those in my everyday life would describe me.

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By Shenonymous, August 29, 2010 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, it was very kind of you to reveal the story about your
son.  It is encouraging that he has made a good life for himself.
I think that is the same goal my grandson has in mind.

In this world of uncertainty, and I guess the world is always
uncertain, but sometimes more than other times, I am reacting
protectively for his safety, who has chosen to become a man a little
early in life, just as your son did.  Your story is comforting and is
probably how it turns out for most of those who join the military.
And it is only irrational fear on my part that all will turn out not
all right.  He is very excited but told me it was a hard decision to
make.  I told him I had great respect for his ability to take charge
of his own life and that he could count on me to be here for him
should he ever need me.  Thank you.

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By elisalouisa, August 29, 2010 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis:Thank your non-existent god that you are female because if you were a man I’d release the 3/4 of my brain that I put on hold when dealing with you. You really should restrict your sparing to neo-cons only because to me neo-cons are some of the dumbest s-o-bees on the planet. And yet most
of them that I know would mop the floor with you
elisa.Is this staement really niecessary? I have written numerous responses to your remarks and I have kindly deleted each one, it’s best that way.
What do you know of my life? I am grateful for the sunrise and the beauty of nature; so does that lead you to the conclusion that there are no sad moments also?  If your “Sunnydale” was my life I would’t be here on Truthdig battling with you and others for trying to find the missing key to how we should live. The world can be cruel and has been/is at times for me and from what you relate in your posts, you also have had your trials in life.
I am completely baffled as to your taste in videos such as Why Women Still Aren’t Funny. I know for Hitchens such outrageous statements increase his readership. My bewilderment lies with you in suggesting I or anyone take the
time to watch this video or for that matter, other videos that you recommend.
Continually mentioning my non-existent god in a put down, one that I do not appreciate.

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By elisalouisa, August 29, 2010 at 6:22 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous:but one of my grandsons ?who will turn 18 next month has signed up with the Marines.  I am concerned since he is so very young and after training could go to a war, which leaves me breathless.  He is so bright and full of energy.

I’ve only been gone a few hours and it seems like I came back to a different board. I’ve hardly read the posts but I did want to address Shen’s concern re her grandson joining the Marines. My heart is with you as my son joined the Navy when he was the same age, after graduating from high school.  I won’t go into the
details but he grew up very quickly in the Navy, cruised the world on an aircraft carrier and upon his discharge took his schooling seriously, continuing his education. Things have a way of working out.
If he absolutely has made up his mind and signed the papers, it’s good to be supportive.

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By Shenonymous, August 29, 2010 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

”Boys are raised to be real namby-pamby thumbsuckers.  Not
that the males ought to go out and smash each others private parts,
which I gather is what they really like to do as an indication of power,
but males do need more of ?the rational principle working in their
infected brains.  Maybe in a hundred years???  I do believe in
evolution.”

The truth hurts!  I know.  Am I really dangerous?  We could have a
discussion about the history of the nature of man if you like.  I really
do like men, real men.  The world would be dreary without them!  Aw
nemesis2010, you just want complete capitulation and I’m sorry that
just isn’t me.  I do still love you!  Yous is da bomb!  If you bothered to
notice my last counterarugment post and a few others earlier and much
earlier, I gave you top honors in not only critiquing the state of human
affairs, political and religious that is, but in your powers of articulation
as well.  And I have gone to your defense though you never ever
solicited it, a Marine wouldn’t anyway, it was because I in fact do have a
high appreciation for your observations.  Now my beef is with what I
consider excessive denigration of our dear elisalouisa who may hold
some dogmatic religious views that gets mixed with political views and
who certainly has the right to express them without her person getting
pounded for it.  It is when she expects others to adopt her views that I
take exception to them and I feel others then have the right to protest. 
But her person ought not to be maligned even if her notions are in my
estimation provincial and narrow.  If you restricted your comments only
to her opinions I would feel much more comfortable that you were not
a sexist.  It would certainly be more valorous, a word that is hardly
even understood these days, let alone observed.  Shall we start listing
all the demeaning terms and phrases you applied to EL?  I wouldn’t
want to do that but could if you insist.  Are they sexist?  Damn right! 
You don’t take such aggressive measures with the guys you denigrate
from time to time.  I understand the pissing contest you have with the
guys, I have four grandsons who do the same thing and I see it all over
the ‘Net… this is what guys do, but I do hate to see it even among
guys, and more so when big strong men do it to women.  I have been
the recipient of such remarks for years here and never do I take it.  So if
you can stand my not standing it, I’m all yours! Hahahaha, and yes, that
was a nervous laugh.  Do sleep well, you are still top gunner.

By the way, not at all related to anything here, but one of my grandsons
who will turn 18 next month has signed up with the Marines.  I am
concerned since he is so very young and after training could go to a
war, which leaves me breathless.  He is so bright and full of energy.

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By nemesis2010, August 29, 2010 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment

By truedigger3, August 29 at 7:03 pm

”You are the one who mentioned that Dershowitz is “liberal” ,and you know, and I know what you were alluding to, and I was just countering your fictitious “point”.
Again an Arab Lobbyist is a bag man delivering protection/extortion money.
You are like your beloved Shenonymous, the minute you get cornered, you revert to personal attacks.
You two make a lovely couple, who eventually will cut each other throat.!”

Ahhhhh… poor baby.

Dershowitz is a liberal. Unless you can produce some kind of “authority” that defines one as a liberal or not you’re up a creek without a paddle. You may maintain the “opinion” that Dershowitz is not liberal but that’s only your opinion. And you know what they say about opinions…

I provided you with info regarding the A—-rab lobby. You ignore it at your own peril because only an idiot would claim that no such entity existed. Suit yourself.

She’s no longer fond of me and that should make you happy. I have just found out that we’re sexists. My heart is broken and I’m waiting for the ambulance to arrive to carry my poor, wretched body to the trauma center. I may not make it. I could die tonight. Dead of a broken heart!

Oh woe is me!

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By nemesis2010, August 29, 2010 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

@ Shenonymous & Night-Gaunt:

You have me very concerned about this sexist charge. I’m really confused especially since it is coming from two individuals that I personally believe are two of the best commenters here at Truthdig.

I was looking over the definition of sexism again and this really bothers me.

sexism (sèk´sîz´em) noun
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
- sex´ist adjective & noun

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

What really concerns me is #2. Do you guys see that part about promoting stereotyping of social roles based on gender?

By Shenonymous, August 20 at 6:35 pm

Boys are raised to be real namby-pamby thumbsuckers.  Not that the males ought to go out and smash each others private parts, which I gather is what they really like to do as an indication of power, but males do need more of
the rational principle working in their infected brains.
  Maybe in a hundred years???  I do believe in evolution.”

To be totally honest when I first read those comments (above) I just laughed. It never occurred to me how extremely violent and sexist those remarks really are. As a matter of fact I’m waiting for the ambulance to arrive and take me to the trauma center.

We live and learn I guess…

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By nemesis2010, August 29, 2010 at 3:24 pm Link to this comment

By Night-Gaunt, August 29 at 5:55 pm

” When he started wanting legal reasons to torture, Dershowitz stopped being a liberal.”

Really? I don’t care for Dershowitz (does this mean I’m sexist against males?) and I was “MISTAKEN” about his being the author but I don’t believe that one or even a few issues determine whether one is liberal or not.

Would you please provide the “authority” on who is and what qualifies one as liberal, or is this simply your opinion?

 

By Night-Gaunt, August 29 at 5:55 pm

”Was some of his comments which I found to be violently sexist in the way they were worded.”

Wow! Now that is almost as absurd as it is exaggerated. Not only is there absolutely nothing that can be even remotely construed as “violent” there was nothing sexist either; unless of course, women are just another one of today’s “untouchable and above criticism” preferred minority groups. 

That still wouldn’t make it sexist but rather comments that do not render proper politically correct preferential treatment for women. And wouldn’t that kind of fly in the face of all that “equality”? 

If you’re thinking about the part where I said that her being a woman protects her more than she’ll ever know it’s because with women I try to go much easier on them—in commentary—than with men. That could be—I suppose—seen as “discriminating” against women by not wanting to treat them as harshly as men tend to treat each other. That’s a bad thing? 

Here’s my dictionary’s definition of sexism:

sexism (sèk´sîz´em) noun
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
- sex´ist adjective & noun

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Help me out here Night-Gaunt. If I hold a door open for a female because I was taught that that was the proper social norm-and it clearly is a form of discriminating because of gender—that makes me a sexist?

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By truedigger3, August 29, 2010 at 3:03 pm Link to this comment

Re: By nemesis2010, August 29 at 5:03 pm


Nemesis2010 wrote:
“All of that is irrelevant. If he had written the book it would be the validity of its content that’s important not your opinion of the author.”
———————————————
You are the one who mentioned that Dershowitz is “liberal” ,and you know, and I know what you were alluding to, and I was just countering your fictitious “point”.
Again an Arab Lobbyist is a bag man delivering protection/extortion money.
You are like your beloved Shenonymous, the minute you get cornered, you revert to personal attacks.
You two make a lovely couple, who eventually will cut each other throat.!

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By PatrickHenry, August 29, 2010 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

nemesis

With your fondness of cut and paste please cite the disparaging comments I made about the ‘Wing’.

I tend to act adversely to others posters claims of military service as a Marine (especially Vietnam), who forget general Marine knowledge or miss many of the nuances that only those who served would know, i.e. 782 gear.

I changed my MOS prior to my second enlistment and got out of Pendelton. I still have alot of unit pride some 26 years after my getting out.

Your friend has my respect, Medivac is the most dangerous support element and door gunners suffered the most deaths in the air wing.

Negativism as it applies to ignorant sarcasm of others opinions is hard to counter as it is usually baseless to begin with.

Better a tin foil helmet than a cone.

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By Shenonymous, August 29, 2010 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

A half expected response, nemesis2010. Do rethink whatever you
had thought of me before. Does it matter?  Not in the least to me. 
Far be it from you to reflect that perhaps you let your hubris interfere
with a well-cultured attitude. I am really interested in your critique
of politics and religion, which I think is impeccable and have said so
many times regardless of what any of your detractors say. I say half
since you take the time to denigrate elisalouisa’s person all the while
you take appropriate issue, in my estimation, with what she says. The
calling people names is too demeaning for an intellect of your caliber
which is my point in going at a defense of EL.  Not ever fooled into
believing what she says, I take umbrage at your describing me as
‘mistaken,’ and use the name-calling technique against her to incite
fear with the intention that the fear mongering tactic will encourage
others who read your scathing of her person will nod their heads in
agreement to construct a negative opinion not only of what she says
but of her personally.  It is a notorious strategy to reduce the perceived
opponent and tear them down as far as possible. As a Marine you are
rife with strategies to win and that is your only motivation when it
comes to gratuitous verbal abuse.

It is well known that my atheist views differ from hers of the
religiopolitical picture of the world.  We have been interacting for
quite a long time and have come to a few verbal conflicts concerning
our differences where she herself imbibed in name-calling and when
assaulted, I retaliated, but I think with chagrin we both caught ourselves
since it stopped turning instead civil, which in my mind is the mature
way to disagree. In my own interrogative way, I do question the
substance of what elisalouisa says. That is what I do not just to her, but
to all I find offering spurious and biased opinions. Truthdippers have
different styles.  That notwithstanding, I have not explicitly said EL
never resorted to ad hominem, that is your characterization of my
comments.  What I did say precisely was at Aug. 23 at 7:38pm “Even
though they are diametrically and fiercely opposed, elisalouisa ?deals
with what nemesis2010 says; and having read her last several ?posts she
does not ever attack his or anyone else’s person who disagrees with
her.“
  I did make it vague when I said “last several posts,” but she
did not in those last several posts from Aug. 22 at 7:59pm to Aug. 23
at 7:20pm.  However I do see earlier at Aug. 22 at 4:30pm she does
say that you have a screw missing, and used vindictive words and
perhaps even actions.  I would qualify that as name-calling.  But it is
truly defensively minimal given the unending denigration you
consistently level at her person.  It is possible she has made mild ad
hominems against you earlier and I admit not wanting to go back
farther to check it out. Compared to the harshly abusive personal
criticisms you level at her, in my recollection (which I admit is faulty)
she has never attained your height at vituperation This is my
perception. 

”Women always demand equality and then when it shows up they
can’t stand more than a couple of seconds of it before they’re
screaming “sexist!” It’s a cop out and quite frankly I thought you above
such cheap tactics. Appareantly I’m MISTAKEN in my inicial assestment
of you and will have to reevaluate.”
 

A completely passive aggressive attack against my legitimate complaint
and by the way the same kind of bullshit you accuse.  Perhaps you are
MISTAKEN in your [initial assessment] of me, and ought to reevaluate
since you apparently cannot stand to be told anything that might
impugn your attitude.  As far as I am concerned this matter is closed. 
Whether or not you counterdefend yourself again is of no consequence
to me.  As I said I am interested in the dialogue about political or
religious matters

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By Night-Gaunt, August 29, 2010 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

When he started wanting legal reasons to torture, Dershowitz stopped being a liberal.

I must admit I was surprised at your reaction to Nemesis2010 (why not 2012?) Shenonymous when it had been directed at elisalouisa? Was some of his comments which I found to be violently sexist in the way they were worded. That I could see as a reason since it appeared he was attacking all women. If you weren’t agreeing with what others do including many Islamics, I had a hard time seeing it. Now that would have been adequate reason to respond.

Anyway, Nibiru is a parallel earth as nicely depicted in Whitley Streiber‘s book “2012” I had fun reading. [It is from a series of A-lines where the Chixilub meteor either did not strike the earth or a smaller piece did. There is never just one alternate reality.]

Personally all that will happen is an alignment with the center of our galaxy. Nothing more. Just a humdrum day and night. Then the calender starts over.

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By nemesis2010, August 29, 2010 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

By PatrickHenry, August 29 at 4:47 pm

” You should also pay attention to much of the vitriol you expend on others in what you post.  Don’t be a hypocrite, paragraph after paragraph of negativism doesn’t move the points you try to make, forward.”

I don’t mind the vitriol or the ad hominem Patrick but you have to have substance also… and you don’t.

If it’s just negativism pick one issue out and try to counter it with evidence and a structured argument. You don’t do that because it’s not negativism… it’s usually fact and/or a well thought-out argument that is difficult counter.

Who else served in the 3rd MAW? I never said I was in the wing. And if you did why did you put down the Wing? One of my best friends was a door gunner on a Huey and didn’t make his first week in Nam. They were on a medi-vac. Perhaps you should speak a little more guardedly about airdales and the wing.

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By nemesis2010, August 29, 2010 at 1:03 pm Link to this comment

By truedigger3, August 29 at 3:35 pm

”Come on, you said there was an Arab Lobby and this a book called the Arab Lobby.”

Sorry… the author is Mitchell Bard; my bad.

Yes, I did make a claim—indirectly—that there is an Arab lobby but I didn’t quote Dershowitz or the book. I’m still waiting for delivery of the book. So it would be impossible for me to quote it. Do you even understand what a quote is? Would you like to borrow my dictionary?

I know that when you try to think it hurts inside your head but really… you’re not going to come here and claim that there is no A —rab lobby?

HINT: type “arab lobby in U.S.” in your search engine and start reading. At Amazon you can purchase—for $149.00—a handbook for professionals which contains all the information on A—rab lobbies in the U.S.

Arab Lobby in the United States Handbook: Organization, Operations, Performance (World Business, Investment and Government Library)
http://www.amazon.com/Arab-Lobby-United-States-Handbook/dp/0739749722/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283108981&sr=8-3

By truedigger3, August 29 at 3:35 pm

” By the way, Dershowitz might be a liberal in some cultural wedge issues like being pro-choice, for gay marriage, no prayers in public shool etc etc, but definitely he is a war monger, ardent Zionisst and UNCONDITIONAL supporter of Israel, no matter what Isreal does. He supports the wars, torture and indefinite detention. That is the new kind of liberals which are called neoliberals.”

All of that is irrelevant. If he had written the book it would be the validity of its content that’s important not your opinion of the author.

As for neo-liberals, I’m not surprised. There are neo-conservatives and now neo-liberals… which is the same as the old conservatives and old liberals wearing a new suit of clothes; conjoined twins, two sides of the same coin. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Liberals and conservatives, democrats and republicans, etc. are nothing but mirror image idiots. And libertarians are nothing but republicans invested in gold.

By truedigger3, August 29 at 3:35 pm

”About the book:“House of Bush, House of Saud.”, who do you think is MUCH MORE POWERFUL, the house of Bush or the house of Saud???!! That was extortion money not lobbying mony.!!!!?”

Which is more powerful? Who knows? I imagine that each has its strengths and weaknesses.

Extortion money not lobby money… Bwaaaaaaa!

In the movie “Going South” Jack Nicholson’s character has a great line when he replies to the banker that:

“poultry is just another name for chicken.”

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