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Chris Hedges on Tensions Between the West and the Muslim World

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Posted on Sep 19, 2010

With Islamophobia sweeping the states in all its stupidity and ignorance, it’s refreshing to hear this assembly of thinkers, including Truthdig columnist Chris Hedges, bring some intellect to bear on the subject.

Al-Jazeera:

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By Maani, September 28, 2010 at 8:46 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis:

“We…have an official version that is given by our government…Apart from the official version there’re the ‘conspiracy theorists’ versions…”

“Conspiracy” is a plan between two or more people to commit an illegal act.  “Theory” is a supposition or hypothesis supported by evidence.  Thus, the “official story” is also a “conspiracy theory”: the gov’t claims that OBL and a handful of Al Qaeda members “conspired” to hijack airliners and fly them into buildings.  The gov’t's “evidence” is in The 9/11 Commmission Report.

If there was a case called “the official story v. alternative theories,” even before “we” provided evidence for our alternative theory(ies), “we” would attempt to undermine the gov’t's theory, by undermining the evidence for it.

In this regard, the 9/11 Commission Report was among the most obvious whitewashes in history.  First, Bush & Co. fought against even HAVING a commission for over a year.  Then they cynically chose Henry Kissinger to lead it.  Public outcry forced him to withdraw, and Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton were appointed.  Then Bush & Co. underfunded the Commission, and stonewalled it at every turn: Kean & Co. were forced to sue for documents and testimony in a number of cases.  And then there were the conflicts of interest of the Commissioners, including that the majority of them had had directorship and/or fiduciary duties at the very companies and agencies they were investigating (Boeing, AA, UA, FBI, CIA, FAA, etc.).  And then there was the Exec Dir, Philip Zelikow, whose conflicts were legion: he was a member of the Aspen Strategy Group, a neocon think tank including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rice et al.  He was a member of the Bush-Cheney transition team.  And he co-authored a book with Condi Rice, and was a good friend of hers.  And THIS is the guy who was LEADING the commission - because although Kean & Co. certainly gave some direction, Zelikow made decisions on what evidence to follow, and who to depose.  This alone is proof of the Commission’s phoniness.

And then there is the substance of the Report itself, which is a combination of fact, distortion and omission.  For example, in order for the Commission to back the “pancake theory” of the collapse of the twin towers, they simply excluded the fact that each tower had a core structure of 47 double-wide vertical steel beams, instead claiming that the interior core was “empty.”  And they don’t even MENTION the collapse of WTC 7.  Plus, they refuse to “follow the money,” claiming that it is “of no material significance” where it came from!  Finally, in their book Without Precedent, Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton admit, in Kean’s own words, that “The Commission was set up to fail” (i.e., not come to a fully informed conclusion as to what occurred).

“When your side has CONCRETE EVIDENCE…your side sues the government…If your side…really had a leg to stand on, they’d have proceeded with legal action long ago…”

Actually, not quite.  While we DO have far more evidence - both concrete and circumstantial - to support OUR alternative theory (that it had to be an “inside job”) than the gov’t has to support theirs (particularly given how weak the Report is, and that it is the gov’t's entire case), we also know that it is not quite enough yet for a full-blown lawsuit.  But that may well be coming.

In the meantime, our science trumps theirs (or what part of my previous post re temperatures didn’t you understand…), and our circumstantial evidence runs rings around theirs.

Truth is on our side, not theirs.

By the way, you ask “When has the government ever feared the American people to such an extent? NEVER!”

Remember the “Gulf of Tonkin?”  LBJ knew that the claimed incident had not occurred BEFORE he went on TV claiming it had - in order to get the public to support escalation of the war.  He damn well WAS afraid of the public!

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By diamond, September 28, 2010 at 3:03 pm Link to this comment

The link between the anthrax letters and the Patriot Act couldn’t be clearer, nemesis: the two Democrat senators targeted, Leahy and Daschle, had both expressed severe doubts about the Patriot Act and had said they may not vote for it. And the link between the anthrax letters and the attempt to blame this terror attack on Saddam Hussein could also not be clearer.  But when tested the outcome was equally clear: the anthrax came from a US military lab. The man who came to this conclusion was the man who led the team that tested the anthrax found in the envelopes, namely Bruce Ivins. Yes, that’s right, the man they later framed for the crime. His team said that the anthrax was of a strength and purity such as they had never seen before, it was weaponized and was a new strain of anthrax.

All anthrax has a ‘fingerprint’ so you can tell where it comes from, because anthrax is one of the most dangerous things on earth. Ivins knew perfectly well that this anthrax was military and did not come from Iraq, as did his entire team. For telling the truth he got a death sentence. And he wasn’t the only one they tried to frame. Steven Hatfill, a lawyer, was fingered for the crime before Ivins. But they made a mistake with him because being a lawyer he knew how to defend himself when they finally got him into court. The FBI lost the case and Hatfill was given nearly 6 million dollars in compensation because the FBI, at the behest of the Bush administration -the real perpetrators- had ruined his career and subjected him to a reign of terror.

They did the same to Ivins: Writing in The American Conservative, Christopher Ketchum summarized the situation in 2008, following the alleged suicide of Bruce Ivins, who was a researcher on anthrax vaccines at Fort Detrick, Maryland, this way: 

‘Seven years after the anthrax attacks shut down Congress, sowed panic nationwide, killed five, sickened 17, and allowed neo con propagandists to variously blame al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, the FBI claims to have gotten its man.’

Then fact is, Bruce Ivins was subjected to a Kafkaesque nightmare. He was, he told the AP, stalked by the FBI, as was his family. Ketchum records that the FBI offered Ivins’ son $2.5 million and ‘a sports car of his choice’ to give evidence against his father. Ivins’ hospitalized daughter did not escape their attentions either.  They came to her bedside and showed her pictures of victims of anthrax and told her, ‘This is what your father did.’ Ivins’ supervisor, W. Russell Byrne, told the AP that Ivins was a broken man who would sit at his desk and weep. The case against Ivins was almost laughable, completely circumstantial and would have failed in any courtroom but in Ketchum’s article Francis Boyle describes the FBI’s strategy against Ivins as, ‘persecute him until he broke, which Ivins did and Hatfill did not. Dead men tell no tales.’

Now tell me, are you seriously claiming that people who are happy to put anthrax in envelopes and send it to senators and journalists and then attempt to frame two men for their crime, one of whom they drove to ‘suicide’ are not capable of having planes flown into buildings and then blowing said buildings up with thermite so they can invade Iraq and get control of its oil? You claim they wouldn’t be so stupid but murderers are stupid. That’s what makes them murderers.

There’s a conference on at the moment, organized by Steve Forbes. One of the speakers got up and said:
‘Democracy doesn’t work, capitalism does. Where I come from if you don’t believe in capitalism, you’re going to hell.’ This is their real religion: capitalism. They despise democracy and they despise the American voter. You simply don’t know who these people are or what they’re capable of, which is why you abuse and attack those who are trying to tell you the truth. Referring to roaches/reptilian shape shifters and neo cons is a tautology.

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By nemesis2010, September 28, 2010 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

@ diamond & maani:

It sounds like you haven’t any real evidence and that you’ll not be making the talking head circuit or releasing your new book. That’s heart breaking to say the least.

I don’t have to debunk your claims.

Here’s how it works in the real world. We (the people) have an official version that is given by our government. That’s the same government that was caught asleep at the wheel with all the necessary intelligence to avoid the attack but who didn’t act upon it probably because it seemed too damn audacious and bizarro world.

Apart from the official version there’re the “conspiracy theorists” versions. I write “versions” because as is the case with all conspiracy theories there isn’t only one counter theory, they number almost as many as the different styles of tinfoil hats sported at a summer tinfoil hat festival.

When your side has CONCRETE EVIDENCE, (not faith, belief, conjecture, doubt, etc.) your side sues the government—you can do that in a free society. If your side—which has become a cottage industry sucking nickels and dimes out of the pockets of the gullible—really had a leg to stand on, they’d have proceeded with legal action long ago. Lawyers live for moments such as that which would prove an official cover up of the magnitude of 9/11.

This is very similar to belief in god. Science has been kicking religion’s ass for many decades now and every time some new truth about the origins of our universe, evolutionary past, etc. is released the religious attempt to reinvent their wheel. The 9/11 truthers do the same thing.

The Discovery Institute—one of the, if not the, prime movers behind the ID scam—would not defend their “theory” in court because once under oath the bullshit usually takes a walk. It’s the same with the 9/11 truthers—you make claims and you present “proof” which when asked to present in the form of concrete evidence you’re unable to do and you start blaming everything and everyone. All one has to do is read diamond’s comments and you can see that it’s nothing more than a bowl of spaghetti being thrown against the wall with the hope that something sticks. You cannot have as many people that would have to be involved in such a massive government cover up and not have a single whistle blower come out. It’s impossible!

Additionally, any “brilliant” minds capable of conceiving such a dastardly plan wouldn’t be so damn stupid as to fail to make the connection to the bad guys. That’s the fucking motive for the plan for crying out loud! You also don’t devise a plan that will involve hundreds or even thousands of individuals because you know that someone will squeal eventually. Brilliant minds wouldn’t blow up 3 buildings with aircraft and explosives and kill 3,000 people to accomplish that which involving a few tens of persons, a couple of trucks with explosives, and a few hundred dead can accomplish. There was no need to bring the buildings down!

If I read maani’s insane rhetoric about the “why” it was done, I’d have to swallow that “the government” (or is it THEY?) was so conscientious about “legality” that it plotted 9/11 in order to legally put into effect the Patriot Act, DHS, etc. That’s ludicrous! When has the government ever feared the American people to such an extent? NEVER!

Then, apart from the “why” there’s the “who” and oh boy do the roaches come out of the walls on that one. On one extreme are the “neo-cons” and the other is occupied with Icke’s reptilian shape-shifters—and there’s everything imaginable in-between.

It’s sad because I was so looking forward to seeing you guys on the tele.

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By Maani, September 27, 2010 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis:

Firstly, his name is Dr. F.R. Greening.  That you can’t even get his name right means you are simply regurgitating what you hear in the alleged “debunking” echo chamber.  Nice try.

Second, Greening only commented on the NIST report, supporting it as a “thorough debunking” of the alternative theories.  Yet you are WAY behind the curve here: both the NIST report and Greening have themselves been utterly and thoroughly debunked by, among others, Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth (over 1200 credentialed and respected architects and engineers who are willing to put their careers and reputations on the line for the truth), and Dr. David Ray Griffin who, although admittedly a theologian, has been studying 9/11 for longer than anyone out there, and has gained an enormous amount of knowledge on history (including false flag attacks) and physics.  You should read “Debunking 9/11 Debunking” in which he takes on NIST, FEMA, Popular Mechanics and other “official story” promoters.

Second, as diamond notes, except for mentioning Greening (who, as noted, has himself been debunked), you offer not one SHRED of evidence to refute our comments - only more sarcasm, insult, and willful ignorance.

Talking to you is like talking to a petulant child who says “no” to everything simply for the joy of being contrary and combative.

I would say you are hopeless, but I actually don’t believe that ANYONE is truly “hopeless.”  Still, you come closer than most people I know…LOL.

Peace.  (yup…)

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By diamond, September 27, 2010 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

Obviously, nemesis, your mother never taught you that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Or that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel for that matter. And where is one fact, as opposed to hysterical ranting and abuse, that disproves the facts I’ve referred to? You don’t have any, do you? And how could you have? You can’t refute the law of gravity and you can’t refute the fact that Silverstein openly stated on national TV that building number 7 was blown up.

But all of the things I’ve referred to are just the tip of the iceberg. The reason there will be no criminal investigation any time soon is that the trail of evidence in the case of 9/11 and the anthrax letters leads to the Bush administration, the Pentagon (NORAD), the FBI and the CIA, not to mention a lot of people in the mainstream media and on Wall Street. You admit that the facts prove 9/11 was an inside job, as do the facts relating to the anthrax letters, but if you think I’m interested in making money out of these facts or going on a speaking tour you’re even more deluded than I thought. My only interest is in seeing the truth come out and the dangerous and perverted people who planned and carried out the attacks jailed. Elected government has to re-assert its authority over the intelligence services and its covert operatives and the Dr. Strangeloves of the Pentagon or America will become an openly Fascist state (where the average citizen is as safe from the state as the Germans were under the Nazis or as the people of Chile were under Pinochet) as opposed to a Fascist state that at least pays lip service to the idea of democracy.

The perpetrators may call it ‘Able Danger’ and ‘Vigilant Guardian’ (an ironic name if ever there was one) but I call it treason and so should you. It doesn’t matter how many books they burn, or how many Muslims they frame, they can’t burn the truth. The old saying ‘The truth will out’ still holds, even in the Big Brother world they’re busy trying to create. The mistake they made was in thinking if you put something on television everyone will believe it without question. They decided to manufacture a visually spectacular narrative, put it on the news and then just repeat it until everyone was brainwashed. It certainly wasn’t the first time it had been tried but they made the classic mistake: they over-reached. The attacks were so obviously the work of professionals and the money trail, had it been followed, would have led back to the culprits which is why the 9/11 Commission claimed that who financed the attacks was ‘unimportant’. I can certainly understand why they would say that when Rumsfeld went on CNN the day before 9/11 and admitted that 2.3 trillion dollars was ‘missing’ from the Pentagon. And if you look you can probably still google the video from 9/11 on Fox News in which Fox reporter Mark Bernbach tells the Fox news desk that the plane he saw fly over was ‘definitely not a commercial plane. It had a blue logo on it and I couldn’t see any windows on the side’. Boom, boom and boom.

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By nemesis2010, September 27, 2010 at 1:03 pm Link to this comment

By diamond, September 26 at 6:42 pm
By Maani, September 26 at 7:14 pm

Maani doesn’t need to consult an engineer, nemesis. It’s not hard to understand. It’s actually quite simple.
I also want to add to diamond’s post the following Physics 101 lesson.

I’m sitting here awestruck! I feel so humbled and embarrassed by my ignorance. Simple! Yes, you are absolutely correct diamond… physics is simple! The truth is that after this physics ass-wupping by you two, if it were possible I’d return to university a.s.a.p. just to study physics.

I could counter with the all the debunking evidence that has—for 9 long years now—proved all of your CT hysteria as the antics of individuals whose mothers didn’t breast feed them but I won’t.

I could ask what possible motive could have hatched such a dastardly plot to destroy 3 buildings, several aircraft, and murder 3,000 human beings when blowing up a few trucks and killing a lot less people would have accomplished the same thing without all the blow back; but I won’t.

It would be a simple thing to paste a link to Dr. F.R. Green’s analysis which clearly demonstrates a 2-3 second longer collapse time than your 9.1 freefall figure; but I ain’t gonna do dat either.

I could mention that thermite is a compound of aluminum and steel and that finding residual traces of thermite would not be strange, given the circumstances; but I’m not going to mention that.

One could bring up the question of just how “brilliant” a mind it takes to construct such a plan—over many years—while completely forgetting that bringing down 3 buildings by controlled demolition might be more than just a little suspicious; especially in the age of television.

One can only wonder how stupid you’d have to be to design such an intricate and complicated plan only to forget to provide the necessary tie in to the party or parties whom you wish to vilify and annihilate.

I could even ask what kind of a mental defective stores all the evidence in a 3rd building just a few hundred yards away from the first two—forcing him to do a rush demolition—rather than properly disposing of it. But why bother throwing reason into the theory and botching it all up, right?

What I will do is humble myself even more than I have already been humbled by your simple physics lessons and congratulate the two of you. Yes, I congratulate the two of you for having assembled all the concrete evidence that proves the 9/11 attack was an inside job by whomever. I look forward to seeing both of you on the talking head circuit and purchasing and reading your soon to be released book.

I would remind both of you that young Bristol Palin, an unwed single mother, is now a national spokeswoman for teenage sexual abstinence (seems they always are against others enjoying that sin once they’ve had an opportunity to partake of that fruit.) and, reportedly, receives about $25,000 per speaking engagement. I imagine that the two of you should get about $50,000 a performance plus the Medal of Freedom because your accomplishments in finally nailing the “real culprits” of 9/11, is nothing less than heroic.

Again my most humble congratulations for having achieved such a gargantuan task. All of humanity thanks you!


”The human mind is easily swayed this way or that in times of doubt, especially when hope and fear are struggling for the mastery, though usually it is boastful, over-confident, and vain.” –Benedict de Spinoza

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By Maani, September 26, 2010 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis:

In response to my reminder that you have not apologized to me for your presumptiveness, you say:

“I can only hope that you’re not holding your breath waiting maani. On many occasions I’ve asked you to clarify your position on your religious beliefs and name for us your particular affiliation; you’ve refused to do so. That’s your prerogative maani, but if you refuse to clarify then you’ll have to suffer the consequences of bad inference.”

Firstly, what does my “particular affiliation” have to do with anything?  You made a presumptive comment about me, and you were wrong in that presumption.  Thus, you do not owe me an apology because I am a believer or a minister, but because I am a human being about whom you presumed something.

Second, I am curious: what point would be served by my giving you the particulars of my “affiliation” or religious belief?  After all, you consider all such beliefs to be hooey, so what possible difference would it make to you?  Or are you simply looking for more fodder for your vitriolic, vituperative, disdainful, insulting and mean-spirited cannon?

I also want to add to diamond’s post the following Physics 101 lesson.  Galvanized steel (which is what the twin towers were made of) melts at ~2500F.  It doesn’t even soften until ~2000F.  Jet diesel fuel, at its hottest (i.e., in a “highly oxygenated atmosphere” - which this was not), burns at ~1800F, but in “open air” only burns at ~800-1000F.  Thus, there is simply no way that the fires caused by the jet fuel could have weakened the steel structure - certainly not enough to cause a catastrophic collapse.  And it makes no difference whether some or all of the fireproofing did or did not come off; the temperatures simply do not match.  And there was nothing in the buildings that could have burned at a higher temperature than the jet diesel fuel, so it was not that either.

I will also add to diamond’s comment about the twin towers’ “free fall” collapse the following.  The planes hit in the top one-third of each tower.  This means that the physical structure of the towers below the impact floors was undamaged.  Thus, these undamaged floors would have provided at LEAST minimal resistance as the building collapsed, causing a “stuttering” effect.  Yet no such effect was seen.  In fact, the collapses ACCELERATED as they went, which is the hallmark of a controlled demolition.  As well, detritus was thrown outward (in some cases over 400 feet) and UPWARD as the buildings collapsed - something that a “gravitational collapse” could not possibly have done; only “added momentum” (e.g., by explosives) could have accomplished that.

Peace.

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By diamond, September 26, 2010 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

Maani doesn’t need to consult an engineer, nemesis. It’s not hard to understand. It’s actually quite simple.

All objects (regardless of their mass) free fall with the same acceleration - 10 m/s/s. This particular acceleration value is so important in physics that it has its own peculiar name - the acceleration of gravity - and its own particular symbol, g. This means that a 110 story building like either of the towers would take around 10 seconds to come down at freefall speed. This is the speed at which the Twin Towers did in fact came down. No building will come down at freefall speed unless it is blown up, i.e. brought down in a controlled demolition. For example, a pancake collapse of a building 110 stories high would take 96 seconds. Almost ten times as long as the Twin Towers took to come down.

It’s also very clear that building number 7 was blown up:

At 5.20pm on September 11, building number 7 came down, straight into its footprint, in 6 seconds. Since it was 47 stories high this means it came down at more or less freefall speed. As in the case of the Twin Towers the ‘collapse’ of building number 7 is only credible if it’s credible that all 58 steel perimeter columns and all 25 core columns cracked or failed almost simultaneously because of a kerosene fire - which could never have reached a temperature of 2,750 degrees Fahrenheit. This is the temperature at which steel melts. The collapse of all three buildings (minus explosives) is inexplicable and to this day the only three steel framed buildings in the world ever to collapse because of fire or the impact of a plane are both the Twin Towers and building number 7.

Pressed for an explanation on number 7’s demise Mr. Silverstein (owner of the World Trade Centre) came up with a story. He was phoned, he claims, by the New York Fire Department, and told that number 7 was a danger to the public and that the building would have to be ‘pulled’ which means ‘demolished’. Mr. Silverstein has therefore admitted on ‘Today’, the morning news and current affairs program, that building number 7 was demolished.  The problems with his story are numerous. Why would firemen or the emergency services go back into what they regarded as a war zone to demolish a building? But if number 7 was demolished and then came down into its footprint, clearly the Twin Towers did exactly the same thing. Obviously all three buildings were destroyed by controlled demolitions. And if number 7 was destroyed by a controlled demolition how were the explosives painstakingly placed in the building to bring it down perfectly into its footprint, a process that takes weeks, even months to plan and carry out, in a matter of hours? Clearly they weren’t because they couldn’t be. The explosives already had to be in place before 9/11. Mr. Silverstein (who had bought the entire WTC six weeks before 9/11 and insured it heavily for terrorist attack )came up with his explanation because questions were being asked about why a 47 story building that was not hit by a plane or anything else suddenly came down at freefall speed into its footprint. But, in fact, his intervention only increased suspicion and made the whole story more bizarre.

All of this is probably why fire engineers called in to investigate the collapse of the Twin Towers complained in a story run in the New York Times in 2001 that their investigations were impeded at every turn. They were prevented from interviewing witnesses, from examining the whole of what became known as ‘ground zero’ and also had difficulty gaining access to recorded distress calls to the fire department and the police. Bill Manning, editor of ‘Fire Engineer Magazine’, wrote that: ‘The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.’ One of the investigating engineers claimed, ‘Our hands are tied.’ But Rudy Giuliani didn’t give a damn. He ignored all of that and shipped the steel to Asia, unexamined.

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By nemesis2010, September 26, 2010 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

By Maani, September 24 at 6:35 pm

”As well, you engage in post hoc propter hoc with regard to my beliefs: i.e., that simply because I am a believer, that means I am somehow more “vulnerable” to alternative theories of historic events.  It might interest you to know that I was not always a believer: I did not become one until my early 20s.  Thus, I lived a rational, empiricist, atheist life for 20 years first.  And I already believed in alternative theories, such as JFK and Pearl Harbor.  Thus, here is evidence of more presumption on your part.”

What you were matters not to me maani. It is what you are now and how that fits into what it is that you’re propagating here.

And you’ve just confirmed what I said: “you’re a conspiracy nut.”

There is no evidence to support mythology maani. “Faith” is not evidence. Wanting or believing something true does not make it so. And people who believe in undead zombies rising from their graves, goat herders mounting horses and flying off to converse with angels, virgins having babies, an elephant impregnating a woman by touching her with his trunk, snakes and jackasses talking, etc. are vulnerable to such things as conspiracy theories based on little or absolutely no evidence. If this type of personality were not gullible they wouldn’t believe the things that they believe. Idiot believers believed Bush was a modern day messiah sent from god for jeebus sake!

By Maani, September 24 at 6:35 pm

”I also note that you have not apologized for your presumption about my ministry, and my “fleecing my flock.”  I expect a sincere (not smart-ass) apology from you for that.”

I can only hope that you’re not holding your breath waiting maani.

On many occasions I’ve asked you to clarify your position on your religious beliefs and name for us your particular affiliation; you’ve refused to do so. That’s your prerogative maani, but if you refuse to clarify then you’ll have to suffer the consequences of bad inference.

You’ve always stated that you’re a “pastor”, you’ve never said that you’re not a pastor of a church or congregation or group of believers. More importantly you’ve NEVER stated or alluded that you might be an assistant pastor or just a “pastor” of a bible study or whatever. For all I know you may have purchased your “pastor” credentials online for $25; provided you even have such credentials as there are many so-called “lay pastors.” Is that what you really are maani, a “lay pastor”?

You’ve never even claimed to be a Christian or a Muslim or a New Ager. And judging from what I read in your commentary—and this isn’t the first time I’ve stated this—I believe it possible that you’re a Muslim or New Ager that tends to pose as a Christian. Given what you said—only last week—with regards to how Christianity and Islam are compatible, your “credentials” as a Christian are more than highly suspect.

And if you’re taking advantage of the less fortunate by handing them a sandwich and feeding them full of mythological bullshit then—IMO—you’re only fleecing them in a different manner; you’re fleecing them of their reason.

It’s incredible that Hedges can write a book warning the world of Crister fascism and not speak nary a word of condemnation (in the whole of this Islamist love fest video) againts those—the Islamist terrorists—really responsible for 9/11.

How do you feel about the conspiracy between the so-called American Left and Islamofascists to usurp the republic?

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By nemesis2010, September 26, 2010 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

By Maani, September 24 at 6:35 pm

”It would take me so long to answer all of the absurdities in your mutiple posts that it would take me more posts than I have time for right now.  Suffice to say that you clearly know nothing about how “conspiracies” are undertaken or accomplished (particularly such that they do not need to to be 100% successful - i.e., with zero error, carried out by “brilliant” minds - in order to be successful), or anything about engineering yourself.  (In fact, I HAVE spoken to engineers - many of them, all highly credentialed professionals, including demolitions experts).  What you don’t know about the topics you are attempting to respond to could fill the Library of Congress.”

Right maani, now argument based on available evidence is absurd while fantasy, conjecture, suspicion, and insanity are sound.

How “brilliant” a mind can it be to conspire what you’d have us believe and completely forget the major issue; to plant the evidence needed to make the connections to those that you want to vilify and attack. If you want to vilify Iraq so that you can steal its oil you make a connection between Iraq or Saddam and al Qaeda. They could have, at a very minimum, had a cheap motel room with “Saddam was here” and ”Osama hearts Saddam” scribbled on the bathroom wall. Brilliant minds don’t conspire to kill 3,000 human beings and blow up 3 buildings in order to attack Iraq and make only a connection to al Qaeda… The Stupid does that.

I may not know much in your opinion maani, but I do know that you keep any plan as simple as possible in order to minimize Murphy’s Law. You also want to keep the number of people involved in your dastardly deed to a minimum because loose lips sink ships. And you damn sure don’t blow up 3 buildings and murder almost 3,000 of your citizens with high-hacked airliners when a couple of trucks will do the trick.

Your theory is filled with holes large enough to drive tractor trailers through them side by side. If there was an iota of evidence and credibility to any of the many “9/11 conspiracy theories” you wouldn’t be able to find a lawyer in the whole of the nation available to take a case because they’d all be busy salivating and filing suits against anybody and everybody in hopes of getting a piece of that pie.


”The conspiracy theorist grabs a factoid here, an erroneous news report there, sprinkles in some anecdotal evidence, throws in a few half-baked theories, stirs them all together—and presto! It’s a conspiracy cocktail. Have a tatse!
Just don’t swallow it.”
smile

–Richard Roeper, “Debunked: Conspiracy Theories, Urban Legends, and Evil Plots of the 21st Century”

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By Brad Evans, September 25, 2010 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Chris Hedges went from “prophetic ministry” as a preacher’s kid who went to ‘divinity school’ (where you learn to be a divinity?)to journalism, where you get to preach at people but don’t have to wear the stupid clothes and get treated better, since we don’t live in the 19th or 18th centuries and Mainline Protestantism is shrinking away faster than a Twinkie enduring assaults by Michael Moore.
  Clearly he thinks that he should “take up the (Progressive)White Man’s burden and tell the rest of us (unenlightened)trolls what to do Before It’s Too Late and God/History/The Downtrodden Masses come and Smite Us Hard-which will be, of course, only what we deserve from not having listened to him and other former preachers like Bill Moyers.
  He IS absolutely correct about one thing: people believe far too much in what religious “professionals” say to them.

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By Maani, September 24, 2010 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis:

It would take me so long to answer all of the absurdities in your mutiple posts that it would take me more posts than I have time for right now.  Suffice to say that you clearly know nothing about how “conspiracies” are undertaken or accomplished (particularly such that they do not need to to be 100% successful - i.e., with zero error, carried out by “brilliant” minds - in order to be successful), or anything about engineering yourself.  (In fact, I HAVE spoken to engineers - many of them, all highly credentialed professionals, including demolitions experts).  What you don’t know about the topics you are attempting to respond to could fill the Library of Congress.

As well, you engage in post hoc propter hoc with regard to my beliefs: i.e., that simply because I am a believer, that means I am somehow more “vulnerable” to alternative theories of historic events.  It might interest you to know that I was not always a believer: I did not become one until my early 20s.  Thus, I lived a rational, empiricist, atheist life for 20 years first.  And I already believed in alternative theories, such as JFK and Pearl Harbor.  Thus, here is evidence of more presumption on your part.

I also note that you have not apologized for your presumption about my ministry, and my “fleecing my flock.”  I expect a sincere (not smart-ass) apology from you for that.

Peace.  (Or some semblance thereof…)

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By nemesis2010, September 24, 2010 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

@ maani:

Since you’ve expressed such concern about my life I thought it best to point out that my response to you consisted of 9,950 characters of which 3,500—(35%)—were your comments cited and the code required to box them.

So while it appears rather long it isn’t. You can stop worrying about me now. As a matter of fact I’ve finished my morning coffee and I’m on my first Scotch and looking forward to my grandson’s arrival this afternoon and several hours of enjoyment playing Modern Warfare 2 with him on our PS3.  smile

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By nemesis2010, September 24, 2010 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

3.

By Maani, September 23 at 4:58 pm

”I know you disagree with me re 9/11.  However, you are quickly joining the minority on this, at least as far as calling for a new, thorough, nonpolitical, nonpartisan investigation which would look at ALL the facts, and follow ALL the leads - wherever they may go.”

Yes maani I do disagree, and for many good reasons.

I’m already in a minority, I’m an atheist! Even though we’re a minority we are on the right side of the argument. A lie isn’t made truth by the number of fools that believe it true maani.

You don’t think maani. You’re a believer in faeries, and unicorns and undead zombies and goat herders on flying horses. That means you’re vulnerable.

If you were able to consider all of your positions from a different perspective you’d see just how foolish you look. When your “theory” is looked at panoramically from a distance there’s so much disconnection that it’s beyond laughable.

First maani, you’d have me believe that a government as inept as the federal government could not only think such a stunt up but also conceal all its plans (for how many years?) without a single whistle blower. Then, 9 years after pulling off the devious deed not a single whistle blower has appeared. This is the same government that was unable to conceal Abu Ghraib, rendition, the yellow cake incident, and failed to keep sensitive Pentagon files from appearing on Wikileaks!

Second, what guarantees that all the charges would go off? If a charge fails it is left there to be found. How did they set off the charges, maani? Radio signals weren’t operable inside the building, re fireman.

If all this was to achieve consensus to attack Iraq why didn’t they incriminate Iraq? To go to war they didn’t have to bring down the buildings maani, they could have set off a few vehicles and planted evidence to tie in whatever group(s) and/or nation(s) they wanted.

Have you a degree in structural engineering maani? If not you might want to consult a REAL structural engineer before proceeding with this bizarro world theory.

Maani, I warned all my friends back in 98 & 99 who were planning to vote for Bush. I begged them to reconsider. I reminded them of the first Bush and gave the nuts don’t fall far from the tree routine. No one listened. When the Shrub first started making noises about Iraq I had so many face-to-palm moments that my forehand has permanent palm prints on it. As much as I knew how inept his administration would be, and it was, reading Galbrait’s “The End of Iraq” confirmed that it was even worse than what I had concluded. Now you’d have me believe them competent enough to pull 9/11 off?

And I haven’t even touched upon the “who” yet. Some say it was the Jews, others say it was the Dick, and recently one bozo here claimed that it was the Dominionists! You people want to blame everyone but the culprits!

I know that it appears that the government is covering up something. I can agree with that much. Want to hear my thoughts on that? I think they’re covering up construction fraud and possibly the involvement of certain family members from what is supposed to be an ally and whose nation is the home of Wahhabis fundamentalism. But I have no evidence to prove any of that, so I just keep quiet.

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By nemesis2010, September 24, 2010 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

2.

By Maani, September 23 at 4:58 pm

”And exactly what “truth” is that?  Because by every measure - including the CIA’s own statistics - Islamic terrorism is at its lowest point in years, Al Qaeda is at its smallest number ever, the Taliban has the smallest number of fighters in 10 years, and you are ten times more likely to die in a terrorist bombing in Colombia (non-Muslim) than in any Muslim or other Western country.”

That’s right maani, their numbers have been depleted due to their having their asses kicked by the U.S. military and—more importantly—all that internecine fighting. But the war is not over and there is another element to it that is more sinister, the clandestine war; the fifth column action that is taking place in the West, the infiltrating of an enemies land and destroying it from within.

Would you please provide the stats and evidence that one is more likely to die from a bombing in Colombia than in any Muslim or Western country. Isn’t Colombia a Western country maani?

There’s a very important difference that you and other apologists fail to mention when you mine stats that you feel exonerate Islamic terror. In the case of Colombia and that government’s decades long battle with FARC, they’re mostly homegrown rebels and the fight is pretty much contained in Colombia.

When the IRA and the Orangemen of Ireland we’re going at each other back in the 70s and 80s most of the fighting remained in Ireland. When the IRA began bombing targets in Britain the British government didn’t hesitate to act with extreme prejudice and no one thought to not mention that the two groups were protestant and catholic Cristers. Their sensitivities weren’t even considered.

When Yugoslavia fell apart there were three groups, two Crister and one Islamic and most of the fighting was contained to the area. None of the aforementioned have high-jacked airliners. In the Balkans the war criminals from the Muslim-Croat sector were almost all volunteers from Chechnya, Afghanistan, and Kasmir. They’re exporting the terror maani.

By Maani, September 23 at 4:58 pm

” The only reason Islamic terrorism SEEMS to be such an issue is because the media MAKE it an issue; i.e., they deliberately keep it in the public eye.  There is no better proof of this than my comment above: why do we never hear that there are 10 times as many terrorist acts in Colombia - done by non-Muslims - than almost all other terrorist acts worldwide combined? ”

Yes maani and tails normally wag dogs.

First you’ve provided no evidence to back that statement; second, containment.

Your statement is bullshit maani. If that little prick, Faisal Shahzad, wouldn’t have forgotten his keys in the vehicle you and I could very well have been blown up walking down the street in Times Square. In order to be blown up by the FARC you and I would have to be in Colombia. You can mine stats as well as quotes maani.

By Maani, September 23 at 4:58 pm

” It is the need to keep the anti-Muslim drumbeat loud and clear to keep the American people fearful and in line.  Period.  This began under GWB and Cheney (the “smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud,” the color-coded terror alerts, constant iteration of “al Qaeda” this and “al Qaeda” that, etc.).”

Bullshit maani. The Islamists are treated by a fawning press as an “untouchable minority.” The only group larger than Muslims is the Crister group for crying out loud.

The tail isn’t wagging the dog maani and the amount of denial in you and your ilk’s position proves that you’re (<- 3rd per.) pragmatophobics.

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By nemesis2010, September 24, 2010 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

1.

By Maani, September 23 at 4:58 pm

”Actually, I would suggest that they don’t have to be doing this at all.  Set aside for the moment that all the added security did not stop either the “shoe bomber” or the “underwear bomber” (they were stopped by perceptive passangers and crew).  All of the added security was the direct result of 9/11.  And if you understand the truth of 9/11 - as a “false flag” attack in which individuals and agencies of our own government were complicit - then you will realize that EVERYTHING that came after that attack - from the Patriot Acts to illegal wiretapping of American citizens, from the evisceration of habeas corpus and posse comitatus to the increased “surveillance state,” from Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib to the trampling of civil liberties and the “slower economic growth” you speak of - is premised on a lie.”

Yes maani, a couple got through. And each time adjustments were made based on new info. It’s an ongoing process. Have you a clue as to how efficient a deterrent all that enhanced security might be? Then there’s that little thing over in Iraq and Afghanistan where they are finally having to face actual warriors and themselves (internecine fighting for power) instead of families in pizza parlors, bus loads of tired workers, and airplanes with unarmed and helpless passengers.

That’s why you should be pissed at the culprits that have caused the reaction that the government is responding to rather than the victims.

You have no proof maani! No evidence! You believe in flying horses and undead zombies maani, you’ll believe anything. Alex Jones is full of it and living a decent life making good coin off of people like you. He’s not your friend! 

By Maani, September 23 at 4:58 pm

” And before you tell me I’m a “conspiracy nut”:”

You’re a conspiracy nut maani.

By Maani, September 23 at 4:58 pm

”Given this, I would say that those (like you) who insist on calling the growing number of people who are seeing 9/11 for what it was “conspiracy nuts” are also attempting to shut down those who dare to question 9/11 or criticize the 9/11 Commission, etc.  So be careful not to fall into the “hypocrisy” trap here…”

Where’s your evidence that there’s a “growing number”? It’s not the number of fools that believe a thing maani. How many human beings for the past 2010 years have believed in an undead Jewish zombie? Billions! It’s still as untrue as the first day the lie was conceived.

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By diamond, September 23, 2010 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment

Call Me Roy is on acid - verbose but not completely reliable.

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By Maani, September 23, 2010 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

The topsy-turvy, Alice-in-Wonderland world of the Texas Board of Education piles on the Islamophobia train…

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/23/education/23texas.html?sq=texas&st=cse&scp=6&pagewanted=print

Peace.

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By Maani, September 23, 2010 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis:

Hmm…

“We cannot board an airliner without having to pass through enhanced security that just a few years ago was unheard of. In some cases passengers are subjected to a longer wait passing security than the time it takes to fly to their destination. Why are all the nations of the earth having to spend multimillions of dollars annually in enhanced security measures?”

Actually, I would suggest that they don’t have to be doing this at all.  Set aside for the moment that all the added security did not stop either the “shoe bomber” or the “underwear bomber” (they were stopped by perceptive passangers and crew).  All of the added security was the direct result of 9/11.  And if you understand the truth of 9/11 - as a “false flag” attack in which individuals and agencies of our own government were complicit - then you will realize that EVERYTHING that came after that attack - from the Patriot Acts to illegal wiretapping of American citizens, from the evisceration of habeas corpus and posse comitatus to the increased “surveillance state,” from Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib to the trampling of civil liberties and the “slower economic growth” you speak of - is premised on a lie.

And before you tell me I’m a “conspiracy nut”:

“Pragmatophobics try to pen the invented term “Islamophobia” to anyone who dares to legitimately question and criticize Islam, Islamists, and Muslims and the viable threat that that religion and its adherents pose to the world and especially to the Great Satan.”

Given this, I would say that those (like you) who insist on calling the growing number of people who are seeing 9/11 for what it was “conspiracy nuts” are also attempting to shut down those who dare to question 9/11 or criticize the 9/11 Commission, etc.  So be careful not to fall into the “hypocrisy” trap here…

“The only thing ‘irrational’ about this Islamic war against the world is the level of denial that you pragmatophobics have to engage in not to see the truth.”

And exactly what “truth” is that?  Because by every measure - including the CIA’s own statistics - Islamic terrorism is at its lowest point in years, Al Qaeda is at its smallest number ever, the Taliban has the smallest number of fighters in 10 years, and you are ten times more likely to die in a terrorist bombing in Colombia (non-Muslim) than in any Muslim or other Western country.

The only reason Islamic terrorism SEEMS to be such an issue is because the media MAKE it an issue; i.e., they deliberately keep it in the public eye.  There is no better proof of this than my comment above: why do we never hear that there are 10 times as many terrorist acts in Colombia - done by non-Muslims - than almost all other terrorist acts worldwide combined?  It is the need to keep the anti-Muslim drumbeat loud and clear to keep the American people fearful and in line.  Period.  This began under GWB and Cheney (the “smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud,” the color-coded terror alerts, constant iteration of “al Qaeda” this and “al Qaeda” that, etc.).

I know you disagree with me re 9/11.  However, you are quickly joining the minority on this, at least as far as calling for a new, thorough, nonpolitical, nonpartisan investigation which would look at ALL the facts, and follow ALL the leads - wherever they may go.

Peace.

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By nemesis2010, September 23, 2010 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

A hate/blame America love fest!

Mr. Hedges:

As a former fan of yours (who, after viewing this video, regrets having purchased several of your books) I must say that I hope and pray to that image of jeebus on my toast that you are not consulted by the government for advice.

Even a $5.00 crack whore doesn’t disgrace herself as much as you have on this program. At least she has a reason for her behavior; she’s hooked on a drug.

How do you suppose you’d be treated were you a Saudi national speaking the way you have in this video about the Saudi royal family and system of government or an Iranian doing the same?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali cannot walk the streets of our nation’s capital without a body guard due to threats on her life by Islamists who, by the way, pinned the written threat to the chest of one Theo van Gough with a butcher knife. We cannot board an airliner without having to pass through enhanced security that just a few years ago was unheard of. In some cases passengers are subjected to a longer wait passing security than the time it takes to fly to their destination.

Why are all the nations of the earth having to spend multimillions of dollars annually in enhanced security measures? Is it because Irish grandmothers have drank too much whiskey and are hell bent on high-jacking planes or is it because Islamists have waged an assiduous terror campaign—that they are constantly making more efficient—since at least the early 1970s? Are all these different governments of the world suffering Islamophobia?

Pragmatophobics try to pen the invented term “Islamophobia” to anyone who dares to legitimately question and criticize Islam, Islamists, and Muslims and the viable threat that that religion and its adherents pose to the world and especially to the Great Satan. 

In his book “Love, Poverty, and War: Journeys and Essays”, Hitchens references a NYT’s article (10/2/01, B4) that had the World Bank estimating that 40,000 children worldwide would die from malnutrition and disease and that an estimated 10 million would fall below the extreme poverty line of $1.00 a day due to slower economic growth associated with the 9/11 attacks. How many more have been affected over the years since due to economic slow downs and diverted finances to deal with these barbaric acts in the name of Islam and its god by the adherents of Islam?

The only thing “irrational” about this Islamic war against the world is the level of denial that you pragmatophobics have to engage in not to see the truth.

And for someone who constantly thrashes capitalism—without offering a viable alternative—you’ve done fairly well for yourself, haven’t you? If you feel guilty about well off might I suggest that you do that which Jesus recommended to the rich young ruler and give all that you have to the poor and go live with them in the streets, the housing projects, the jungles of Africa, the barrios of Brazil, etc. There’s a lot that you could be doing rather than spewing!

You and your ilk remind me of those fat Islamic clerics who are always praising suicide bombers as glorious martyrs. Have you noticed that however glorious a cause blowing your dumbass self is, that they never deem themselves worthy of such an honor? You’re much like them in that way: you thrash the system and want change but refuse to do your part by ceasing to participate in that which you condemn.

You should publicly apologize to the American people.

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By psychobabbler, September 21, 2010 at 10:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The be all and end all is this:

“The only way to blunt this movement is not through dialog we are far past that, it is to re enfranchise the under class in this country back into this economy.”

Something so obviously apparent and true has a dramatic impact for me in these darkest days.

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By call me roy, September 21, 2010 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment

A Patriotic Muslim’s Warning on Ground Zero Mosque
by Aaron Elias - August 18, 2010

The mosque that the Cordoba Initiative is planning to build near Ground Zero has generated a substantial amount of attention across the country. Exemplifying the ire of many Americans, a recent poll showed that 53% of New Yorkers were opposed to the mosque. And while that majority may not include as many Muslims as we’d like, more and more are speaking up in opposition to the mosque. These Muslims offer many Americans a vital interpretation of the Islamic religion as a whole and show that Islam is not in fact a monolithic faith.
Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, M.D., president and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD), is one of these devout yet patriotic Muslims. A former U.S. Navy lieutenant commander with 11 years of service as a medical officer under his belt, Dr. Jasser has made it clear that “until anti-Islamist Muslims wage the intellectual battle against Islamism within the Muslim consciousness, we will make no headway against ‘the narrative.’”
Jasser founded AIFD in the wake of the 9/11 attacks in order to provide a Muslim American voice that would genuinely advocate and defend the founding principles of the U.S. Constitution. He has taken the fight against radical Islam to heart and sees it as a responsibility of all “true” Muslims. Where many U.S.-based Islamic organizations, such as CAIR and the Islamic Society of North America, claim to support the U.S. Constitution but provide dodgy answers and shoddy excuses for terrorism when the rubber meets the road, Dr. Jasser’s AIFD is based on the founding principles of the United States. Where CAIR’s rhetoric tends to create a tension between Americans and its Muslim members, the rhetoric of Jasser and AIFD refers to Americans as an “us” and not a “them.”
“I have always looked upon myself, long before 9-11, as a Jeffersonian Muslim, if you will,” Dr. Jasser answers when asked about his identification as a Muslim. “Along with the ideas of liberty as embodied in the works of our founding fathers, naturally emanating from that is a deep antipathy for Islamism (political Islam), salafism, jihadism, governmental sharia, and the global collectivist movement of the Muslim Brotherhood.”
Terms such as “moderate,” “secular,” and “radical” are innately controversial as any group is able to contort them to mean what they want. For example, Jasser posits, the term “moderate” has become synonymous with being non-violent or anti-terrorism. But this is an oversimplification that blinds Americans to the very political ideologies — which he identifies as “Islamism” — that are the cogs and gears of terrorism. (Continued)

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By call me roy, September 21, 2010 at 6:57 pm Link to this comment

A Patriotic Muslim’s Warning on Ground Zero Mosque
(Continued)

“I know everyone is looking for an easy label to know the ‘good Muslim’ from the ‘bad Muslim,’” Jasser continues, “but … I believe that the ‘anti-Islamist’ or at least ‘non-Islamist’ Muslims are on our side and the pro-Islamist Muslims, those who believe in the Islamic state and governmental sharia, are not on our side but on the side of political Islam.”
AIFD’s slogan is that its members are “Americans who happen to be Muslim, and not Muslims who demand to be American.” As a devout Muslim, Dr. Jasser has voiced strong opposition to the mosque now called “Park 51” that threatens to encroach on Ground Zero. When he first heard of the plans, he says, he wrote an op-ed for the New York Post detailing why he as a Muslim felt a mosque in such a location would only offer more misguidance for the U.S. Muslim community.
“The reality is that many of us have never said their rights should be infringed in any way but rather that we pray that a light will finally go on in their heads which tells them that ‘this ostentatious $100 million Islamic center should be built elsewhere and not in a place that casts a shadow upon the graves of thousands of Americans’ — still an open raw wound for most Americans,” Dr. Jasser explains.
Jasser also expresses deep concern that the organization funding the mosque, led by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, has refused to exclude foreign funding from filling its coffers. Such financial transactions immediately offer the opportunity for foreign Islamists and their sympathizers to preach their version of political Islam and sharia, he warns, and present a very significant threat to national security.
“I cannot see genuine Muslim reform happening on the dime of foreign Islamist interests,” Jasser says. “Make no mistake, this Islamic center is not a spiritual statement but a global political one in the name of Islam. … Every group I have been directly involved with in building mosques and Islamic projects in the U.S. have rejected foreign funds entirely because of the ideological hypocrisies and Islamism that comes with them.”
Dr. Jasser’s only contact with Imam Rauf has been indirectly. Rauf penned a Huffington Post article admonishing anyone who thought sharia was incompatible with the Declaration of Independence, and Jasser responded with a commentary at HuffPo telling him that Muslims need to be “getting real with Shar’iah.” Rauf’s opinion that America must embrace sharia rather than fear it belies the true reality of sharia as implemented by Muslim majorities, Jasser explains, and demonstrates an intense denial or deception on his part of the innumerable female, non-Muslim, “liberty-minded Muslim,” and minority victims of sharia law.
Dr. Jasser has also taken serious issue with the background story that the mosque’s developers have chosen to promote.

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By call me roy, September 21, 2010 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

Islam’s Burning Rage
by Rich Trzupek on Sep 15th, 2010

At the other end of the spectrum, we have one major religion in the world so terribly insecure about itself that it cannot bear the slightest provocation, no matter how obscure or tenuous the source is. Rather than holding that religion – Islam – accountable for maintaining a skin so thin that it encroaches upon the freedoms it supposedly hold so dear, the Left continues to enable a hyper-sensitive Muslim worldview. According to the Left, Muslims are a particularly aggrieved part of the victim class and thus the regular rules of public discourse do not apply when they express their grievances. History tells us that leftists aren’t doing anyone any good, not Muslims and certainly not the civilized world, by according Islam this special status.
The firestorm of controversy that surrounded the ultimately unrealized plans of an obscure Florida pastor to burn a few copies of the Qur’an was truly remarkable, without any analog in the modern world. If Terry Jones had announced an intention to put any other book in the world to the torch, no one would have taken any notice, much less threatened to set off a firestorm of righteous indignation. The fact that this one book, and only this book, could provoke such a ludicrously disproportionate reaction ought to tell us much more about the people who believe in that book than it does about the people who question its authenticity and authority. Bible burnings, for example, are not uncommon. Last year an equally obscure preacher in North Carolina announced his intention to burn copies of the Christian Holy Book on Halloween. The United States has officially confiscated and burned Bibles in Afghanistan. Such incidents didn’t result in Christians storming the streets, howling in outrage or threatening violence. Such plans were instead met with a shrug, because the faithful were confident enough to say that such misguided actions ultimately don’t matter.
Yet, the very idea that one man could possibly desecrate the Qur’an was enough to get the State Department, the commanding General in Afghanistan and the President of the United States involved. The mainstream media jumped on the bandwagon as well, warning the populace of all the terrible things that were sure to happen if Jones went through with his plans. The irony is that Islamic inspired violence is a given, whether a preacher with bad facial hair actually burns copies of the Qur’an or not. No matter, for in the mainstream media’s eyes the damage has already been done. Islamic violence is always our fault according to the Left and this latest non-incident has become further proof that it is right. Islam doesn’t need reform, the Left assures us, our attitude towards the religion is the real problem.
The Qur’an burning didn’t happen. Not that it should matter. Members of any other religion in the world would dismiss plans to burn their holy book as the unimportant, deluded ravings of an obscure individual who represents nothing more than himself. Muslims and their leftist allies, on the other hand, have managed to elevate Terry Jones into something he never was and never should have been: a global figure who wields immense power. The fact that something like this could occur is not a tribute to Jones’ message and charisma, it’s rather proof of just how powerfully Islamic insecurities influence the West, and particularly the Left.
Of the thirty recognized on-going global conflicts raging today, twenty-eight of them involve Islam in some shape or form. That was the case before Terry Jones got his fifteen minutes of fame and will continue to be so long after Jones disappears into the footnotes of history. Islam continues to be its own worst enemy and the Left, particularly the mainstream media, can’t seem to stop enabling this most insecure of the world’s religions.

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By call me roy, September 21, 2010 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

Islam Indonesian Christians beaten, stabbed by Muslims
IRWAN FIRDAUS - Associated Press Writer - 9/13/2010 5
BEKASI, Indonesia - Indonesia’s president ordered police to arrest the assailants who stabbed a Christian worshipper in the stomach and beat a minister in the head with a wooden plank as they headed to prayers. Neither of the injuries appeared to be life-threatening.
Indonesia, a secular country of 237 million people, has more Muslims than any other in the world. Though it has a long history of religious tolerance, a small extremist fringe has become more vocal in recent years.

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who relies heavily on Islamic parties in parliament, has been widely criticized in the media for failing to crack down on hard-liners. But he immediately called on authorities to investigate and to hold accountable those responsible.

No one claimed responsibility for Sunday’s attacks, but police have said they know who the perpetrators were, though they would not comment further. Suspicion immediately fell on Muslim hard-liners who have repeatedly warned members of the Batak Christian Protestant Church against worshipping on a field housing their now-shuttered church.

In recent months, they have thrown shoes and water bottles at the church members, interrupted sermons with chants of “Infidels!” and “Leave Now!” and dumped piles of feces on the land.

“We’ve questioned nine witnesses and have already identified the perpetrators,” said local detective, Capt. Ade Arie. “But it’s too early to comment or speculate on a motive.”

Local Police Chief Imam Sugianto said Asia Sihombing, a worshipper, was on his way to the field when assailants jumped off a motorcycle and stabbed him in the stomach.

The Rev. Luspida Simanjuntak was smashed in the head as she tried to come to his aid. “I was trying to help get him onto a motorcycle so we could get him to a hospital,” she told reporters in the industrial city of Bekasi, 25 miles (40 kilometers) east of Jakarta.

Leading the charge against the Batak Christians has been the Islamic Defenders Front, which is pushing for the implementation of Islamic-based laws in Bekasi and other parts of the nation.

They are known for smashing bars, attacking transvestites, and going after those considered blasphemous with bamboo clubs and stones. Perpetrators are rarely punished or even questioned by police.

The Islamic Defenders Front pressured local authorities early this year to shutter the Batak church, located in a densely populated Muslim area, saying the permit was granted without the required approval of residents.

The Christian worshippers have refused to back down. Every week, about 20 or so return to the field to pray, defying threats and intimidation.

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By call me roy, September 21, 2010 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment

No, Professor Ahmed, the Founders Were Not So Fond of Islam
While doing the MSM circuit this week, American University professor Akbar Ahmed told some whoppers about Adams, Jefferson, and Franklin.
September 10, 2010 - by Laura Rubenfeld
To oppose the “burn the Quran” event planned by Pastor Terry Jones, Ahmed wrote an editorial for CNN in which he stated: not only are the actions of Jones contrary to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, but they are also against the ideals of the American Founding Fathers.

The Founding Fathers read and honored the same Quran that Jones is now seeking to burn.

[John Adams, America’s second president] showed the utmost respect for Islam, naming the Prophet Mohammed as one of the greatest truth seekers in history.
These statements are utterly opposed by the facts.
John Adams said absolutely nothing of the kind. Correspondence from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on July 16, 1814, reveals John Adams’ true feelings about Islam: Adams states that Mohammed is “a military fanatic” who “denies that laws were made for him; he arrogates everything to himself by force of arms.”
John Adams did indeed own a Quran — the copy he owned contained the following in the preface:
This book is a long conference of God, the angels, and Mahomet, which that false prophet very grossly invented; sometimes he introduceth God, who speaketh to him, and teacheth him his law, then an angel, among the prophets, and frequently maketh God to speak in the plural. … Thou wilt wonder that such absurdities have infected the best part of the world, and wilt avouch, that the knowledge of what is contained in this book, will render that law contemptible … (Continued)

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By call me roy, September 21, 2010 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

No, Professor Ahmed, the Founders Were Not So Fond of Islam (Continued)

Perhaps Akbar Ahmed misspoke, and was referring to John Adams’ son, John Quincy Adams? The sixth president, not the second?
No. Here is what John Quincy Adams wrote about the Islamic prophet Mohammed:
In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar, the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust, by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE. [emphasis in the original]
John Quincy Adams also described the Quran in one of his essays as follows:
The precept of the koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. The commands of the prophet may be performed alike, by fraud, or by force.

Ahmed also claims in his editorial that “Benjamin Franklin called the Prophet Mohammed a model of compassion.” Ahmed made similar claims on The Daily Show:
I quote the Founding Fathers. … John Adams on the Prophet of Islam: He called him one of the greatest truth seekers in history. (Ben) Franklin called him a model of compassion. And Jefferson had the first Iftaar … and owned a copy of the Quran. … Those Americans who are attacking Islam simply as a terrorist religion or a religion of evil, really need to go back to their own Founding Fathers.
In a March 23, 1790, letter to the editor of the Federal Gazette, Ben Franklin wrote:
Nor can the Plundering of Infidels be in that sacred Book [the Quran] forbidden, since it is well known from it, that God has given the World, and all that it contains, to his faithful Mussulmen, who are to enjoy it of Right as fast as they conquer it.
Thomas Jefferson? Like John Adams, he did own a Quran, one translated by George Sale. Here are some of Sale’s comments on the Quran, included by Sale in his introduction:
It is certainly one of the most convincing proofs that Mohammedism was no other than human invention, that it owed its progress and establishment almost entirely to the sword.
In his editorial, Akbar Ahmed claims:
Thomas Jefferson kept the … Quran in his personal collection and it informed his decision to host the first presidential iftaar during Ramadan.
President Obama repeated this claim — that Jefferson hosted the first presidential iftaar — at the most recent White House Ramadan dinner. (Continued)

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By call me roy, September 21, 2010 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment

No, Professor Ahmed, the Founders Were Not So Fond of Islam (Continued)


Let’s review the facts.
During the Barbary Wars, in 1805, the bey (i.e., monarch) of Tunis threatened war with the United States after the U.S. had been successful in capturing some Tunisian pirate ships. The bey sent an envoy to the United States to negotiate for the return of the ships. This envoy stayed in Washington for six months, during which the month of Ramadan passed.
One of Thomas Jefferson’s many invitations extended to this envoy to meet with him at the White House was during the month of Ramadan. To accommodate the envoy’s religious obligation, Jefferson changed the time of dinner from the usual “half after three” to “precisely at sunset.”
Jefferson was being polite — not celebrating the first White House iftaar, as Akbar Ahmed suggests.
The first Ramadan iftaar was not actually held at the White House until 1996.
Indeed, in a letter dated June 26, 1822, Jefferson had this to say about Islam in a passage regarding Calvinism:
Verily I say these are the false shepherds foretold as to enter not by the door into the sheepfold, but to climb up some other way. They are mere usurpers of the Christian name, teaching a counter-religion made up of the deliria of crazy imaginations, as foreign from Christianity as is that of Mahomet.
For good measure, Akbar Ahmed also mentioned John Locke:
The Founding Fathers were also inspired by Christian thinkers like John Locke, who declared that the true Christian’s duty was to “practice charity, meekness, and good-will in general toward all mankind, even to those that are not Christians.”
Akbar Ahmed is currently Ibn Khaldoun chair and professor of Islamic studies at American University. Ibn Khaldoun was a 14th century Islamic philosopher and scholar, a man about whom Akbar Ahmed has written. Ibn Khaldoun advocated for violence against non-Muslims as a religious duty, in order to achieve the larger goal of dismantling non-Muslim civilization and imposing an Islamic caliphate.
Ibn Khaldoun makes it clear that holy war is the duty of every Muslim. From his most famous work, Muqaddimah:
In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.
Akbar Ahmed is, as previously noted, an advisor to General Petraeus. One wonders if General Petraeuss has been influenced by the false teachings of this professor.

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By call me roy, September 21, 2010 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

Islam Expert Not Shocked by Disappearance of ‘Draw Muhammad’ Cartoonist By Michelle A. Vu
A Christian expert on Islam is not surprised that the Seattle cartoonist behind “Everybody Draw Muhammad Day!” was threatened by extremists and forced into hiding.In fact, Dr. William Wagner, author of “How Islam Plans to Change the World,” says intimidation is one of radical Islam’s most effective tools.
“They (radical Muslims) are constantly looking for persons who seem to go against Islam and then threaten them,” says Wagner, a long-time Southern Baptist who currently serves as president of Olivet University in San Francisco.
Extremists used the same tactic to keep newspapers from republishing the Danish cartoons in 2006 and to force Comedy Central into censoring a “South Park” episode with the Muslim prophet Muhammad earlier this year.
“These threats will continue not because of an increased number of those opposing Islam but because they have discovered that it is a good method to put the opposition on their heels and at the same time to give more media attention to their goals,” says Wagner.
Last Wednesday, Seattle Weekly editor-in-chief Mark Fefer announced in the paper that cartoonist Molly Norris was in hiding because of death threats received for mocking the Muslim prophet Muhammad. Based on the advice of the FBI, Norris will relocate, change her name and no longer appear in the paper, Fefer wrote.
“You may have noticed that Molly Norris’ comic is not in the paper this week. That’s because there is no more Molly,” he explained. “She is, in effect, being put into a witness-protection program – except, as she notes, without the government picking up the tab.”
A cleric in Yemen associated with al-Qaeda, Anwar Al-Awlaki, had issued a fatwa (religious ruling) against Norris that appeared in the July issue of an al-Qaeda-linked magazine. For most Muslims, it is blasphemous to depict their prophet.
Ironically, however, Norris’ cartoon for “Everybody Draw Muhammad Day” did not depict the Muhammad. Her cartoon featured colorful objects, including tea cups, handbag, and spools of thread, under the headline: “Will the real likeness of the prophet Mohammed please stand up?!”
Her cartoon was much gentler than the images that her “Everybody Draw Muhammad Day” inspired on a Facebook page, which contained many offensive cartoons. The Facebook page with the Muhammad images even caused Pakistan to temporarily ban the social networking site.
Norris had originally started the annual day to protest Comedy Central’s censor of “South Park” after a Muslim group threatened violence. The 49-year-old cartoonist wanted to protest the network to defend free speech instead of bowing to their threats.
According to a Zogby survey, 71 percent of American adults also disagreed with the network’s censorship of the 201st episode of “South Park.”
“The Seattle cartoonist who dared to suggest making fun of Muhammad is experiencing what many others have gone through who have spoken against Islam,” says Wagner, who served as a missionary for nearly three decades.
“Since radical Muslims have discovered that such publicity works for their advantage, they are using this effectively worldwide to get their way in both large and small incidents,” he adds.
In 2006, a series of Danish cartoons depicting Muhammad caused protests and riots throughout the world, particularly in cities with large Muslim population. One of the 12 cartoons originally published in the Jullands-Posten in 2005 depicted the Muslim prophet wearing a bomb as a turban with a lit fuse.
Dozens of people died as a result of Muhammad cartoon protests, including those in Nigeria, Libya and Pakistan. Churches in Lebanon and Nigeria were also attacked during the riots.

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By gerard, September 21, 2010 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

Somembody on one of these strings recently had the abyssmal stupidity to ask: “What’s wrong with Islamophobia?”

Well, the previous comment by “diamond” is as good an answer as any I’ve read for a while.

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By diamond, September 21, 2010 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

I don’t think most Americans realize what the so-called ‘war on terror’ has done to the law and to all Muslims everywhere. I recently read a story in the paper about what is happening to a Muslim lawyer in Australia who has appeared in court representing several so-called ‘terror suspects’. He has been subjected to a campaign of harassment and abuse simply for doing his job:

‘The high profile Muslim lawyer Adam Houda has been arrested again while walking near his home in what he says is the most outrageous example yet of racial vilification, harassment and brutality by police.

This incident brings to five the number of times Mr. Houda has been arrested or detained…None of the earlier incidents led to a conviction, instead they produced apologies and more then $150,000 in compensation from the New South Wales police.

About 8pm on Thursday Mr. Houda was walking near his home in Yagoona with his brother Bassam and a friend, Mohammed Hawa, when they were asked for identification by two plainclothes policemen in an unmarked car. When Mr. Houda asked why, they said they were investigating a robbery and he fitted the suspect’s description. ‘We were polite the whole time,’ Mr. Houda said. ‘When it became too silly for words, I said, ‘Look, am I under arrest for anything?’ When the more senior officer said no, Mr. Houda began walking to his home but was grabbed and handcuffed by the other officer, causing ‘excruciating pain’ in his wrist. ‘It got to the point where I felt I was going to pass out.’

Mr. Houda, 35, who suffers from a heart condition, watched as five more police arrived and he was then placed in the back of a police paddy wagon and taken to the police station where he was locked in a cell without his medication and not allowed to call a lawyer or a support person.

Mr. Houda received $145,000 in compensation after he was arrested at Burwood Local Court and an apology after he and another Muslim man were surrounded by nine police when they refused to supply identification outside a cafe. Thursday was the third time since 2007 that he has been detained while walking near his Yagoona home and he received a confidential payout after suing over the previous arrest.

The police still maintain that they will charge him with not complying with a request to submit to a search and resisting arrest.’

It’s similar to what happened in Ireland during the time of the British/Ira conflict. Any lawyer who defended IRA suspects in court was considered a terrorist and at least one of them was murdered. And all of this is a result of the ‘war on terror’ and the terror laws introduced on the back of the litany of lies known as 9/11. What Mr. Houda’s story proves is that no Muslim is safe. If he was a Christian who had defended terror suspects in court (and there are quite of few of them) the police wouldn’t dare treat him this way but he’s a Muslim, so all bets are off.

So here’s the solution so many are calling for: admit 9/11 was an act of state terror and charge those responsible, withdraw every last soldier from Iraq and Afghanistan and repeal the terror laws which are undemocratic and, in the final analysis, a threat to us all. Until that is done any discussion of the situation is just shadow boxing. I believe that the reason the U.S. political culture simply refuses to act on 9/11 is that they fear that if they do, the same forces behind 9/11 will launch another devastating terror attack and blame Obama for it. It’s like a game of Russian roulette but the threat will only be removed when the truth is told and charges laid. Until that happens Muslim lawyers had better choose their clients with great care.

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By gerard, September 21, 2010 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

Doesn’t anyone here have any practical suggestions?
Or is it just more fun to kvetch and cry havoc?

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By dcrimso, September 21, 2010 at 8:23 am Link to this comment

Didn’t one of my teachers tell me once that during the Crusades, Christians would annhilate whole communities in battle, while the Muslims would spare the people?  Probably a muslim sympathizer.  With the history of the U.S., America should be very afraid, because payback and karma are unforgiving.

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By Maani, September 20, 2010 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

Igor:

“I’m an Islamophobe because any religion whose sacred writings contain numerous instructions to kill people for no good reason – like the Holy Qur’an— has a jarring effect on my nerves.”

In addition to CMWTD’s comment about the Old Testament (which is true), I must ask: do you come to this knowledge and understanding from actually having READ the Qur’an?  Or are you simply regurgitating what you hear in the media echo chamber?

Peace.

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By RayLan, September 20, 2010 at 6:49 pm Link to this comment

Here we go - persecuting people for their religious beliefs - let’s reenact the Middle Ages and conduct Inquisitions - or witch-burnings - all so-called Christian-sanctioned atrocities - on the basis of the evil Demonic Other-  the santification of dangerous stupidity

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By Sonny, September 20, 2010 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This is a tangent, but needs to be said.

As a citizen of the United States of America, I am a Texan, first, only secondary am I a U.S. citizen. America is a set, that’s two, continents.

People born in Paraguay are as American as am I but they are not U.S. citizens and as such, may not be so effing stupid and bigoted as so many of my countrymen. Please consider this when you, U.S. citizens and non, label stupid U.S. citizens as stupid “Americans”. I may have to put up with the assumptions but there is no reason that people from Central and South America, Canada, and Nova Scotia should be lumped in with our national disgrace.

Wake up world, The United States is peopled with intellectualy lazy, crackers, who desire to know nothing more than what our Corporate Media, and “Leaders” who are actually merely elected representatives tell us about the world. We are not The “Americans”, and to call us that disrepects the People living outside of the United States of America, but still on the American continents. Why do foreigners not call us on our obvious exceptionalism?

I think most of you are as stupid as you label the United States citizens, you project your stupidity on the one who seems to be the greatest dolt at the moment. For the judgement you judge you are also judged, to point one finger makes three point at you.

Islam is a religion just like all the other sad sack religions that have been destroying the planetary dialogue for so long. At best, they cause people to quietly form groups not learning from those who are different from themselves, at worst religions cause murder and mayhem in the name of a creator who is supposedly unfathomable anyway.

U.S. Citizen, Texan, Huyman Being,
Sonny Wyatt

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By Christian Muslim Whats the difference?, September 20, 2010 at 12:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Igor Slamoff,

You could enrich your opinion by reading the old testament of the Christian Bible.  You want to see killing directly endorsed by a holy book, then you dont need to read the Quran, “God’s” book, the Bible is riddled with instructions from God to kill.  Read it and then try to deny it.

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By Igor Slamoff, September 20, 2010 at 6:15 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

WHAT’S WRONG WITH ISLAMOPHOBIA?

I’m an Islamophobe because any religion whose sacred writings contain numerous instructions to kill people for no good reason – like the Holy Qur’an— has a jarring effect on my nerves. 

Is that sinful?

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By RayLan, September 20, 2010 at 5:17 am Link to this comment

Nazism rose from the foment of serious economic distress in Germany - Hitler, like the Tea Party right wing marshalled this anger toward a scapegoat - the Jews - now it’s the Muslims= incipient political stupidity - quickly becoming an American national trait.

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By Thomas Malllon, September 20, 2010 at 4:05 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Chris Hedges in his videos is coming off more and more as a crank. He has so much neurotic self-loathing about his own skin and culture he can’t seem to see anything right anymore. One need not be a bigot or racist to loves one’s own culture while happily and peacefully cooperating in all things possible with others, Chris. Lighten up, old man.

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By Clint Work, September 19, 2010 at 9:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Arabian Sinbad,

I agree in part. Nevertheless, Hedges hinted at the root of this: the economic
depredation the power structure has carried out against the working class of
America. If Americans could get active enough to drastically restructure the
governing system (though such a hope is slim), they might be able to redirect
the country’s energy. Obviously he gave no concrete suggestions during this
talk, but that was not the stated purpose. Read some of his other work, as you
may already have, and you might see some solutions. The terms of our
resistance must be economic and at the community level. To imagine that any
of the so-called political leaders will help is simply absurd. The system no
longer functions. That prognosis is bleak but it must be made.

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By gerard, September 19, 2010 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

Thanks for this very helpful overview.
  One thing that needs doing is for a delegation of men and women with credentials as valid as those of these four men to get together, work out a non-aggressive format and together go to Fox Studios and
if possible arrange ahead of time for a series of six or eight (half-hour?) sessions like this but simplified to present the same basic reasons and reporting in smaller “bites.”  Ask for a series of prime time spots in the interests of “clearing the air” or “bringing viewers important background information”.
  Take with them whatever evidences of broader support they can get together in a brief period of time (for this needs doing a.s.a.p., needless to say_).
  Try to get some commercial support (advertising money) for it from liberal corporations and prominent public figures so that Fox is not asked to donate free time. 
  Circulate a petition for signatures from other supporters with as much name recognition as possible.
Help from relevant Europeans and Asians with name value also would all weight, such as high profile leaders in Germany, France and England, Russia, Japan, China, India, Australia, South Africa, and some countries in other parts of Africa and South America.
  Could such an effort be put together within a month’s time—or less if possible? 
  What do you think?  How could this reach the consideration of Mr. Hedges who might possibly be intersted?  Who else would be able to give him some realistic help?  Suggestions?

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By Mo Hammad, September 19, 2010 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The country was founded on bigotry and abuse of weaker people.  They took the land from the natives, brought slaves to work by the millions and built an econimc system based on boom and bust.  America has preached democracy and justice but has largely praticed greed and war.

Being a Mulsim in America, I have fear from the rampant ignorance but I also have faith in the reason and goodness of Americans. It is the best place on Earth.

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By Arabian Sinbad, September 19, 2010 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

After listening for three-quarters of an hour to two journalists and two scholars of Islam, discussing the crises between increasingly bigoted America and increasingly alienated Muslims, the sad part is that none of the participants has suggested a solution.

Though the participants were all knowledgeable and able to give a good diagnose of the ailment, none of them had any brilliant idea of how to cure the ailment. So I was left with the impression that the worst is still to come as an America, facing economic crises and polarizing political civil war, searches for scapegoats to hate and blame, as the Nazis in Germany rose to power under the same circumstances and the Jews were made the scapegoats!

What a wonderful so-called Western civilization that has the potential of repeating within a period of sixty years the worst horrors of the past!

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