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Chris Hedges and Derrick Jensen on Totalitarianism and Resistance

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Posted on Jul 12, 2010
Jensen and Hedges
PM Press / Truthdig

What is it going to take for concerned and engaged citizens to finally feel as though some crucial threshold has been crossed—that our nation’s political system and the global corporate culture it both serves and feeds into will never represent them or serve their needs? Continuing along that line, what’s to be done once that realization has hit home, as it has for authors Chris Hedges and Derrick Jensen? Both Hedges and Jensen offer their ideas in this July 5 interview with Mount Royal University professor Michael Truscello.

Listen to the interview below:

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By Tokin Lib, February 6, 2012 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

My problem with Hedges and Jensen, though I admire
both, is their retreat into ‘religious” mumbo-jumbo.
I do NOT understand how ANYONE can reconcile
“monotheism” with anything remotely resembling
“democracy.” It’s akin to trying to govern a
capitalistic economy democratically: not possible,
because the imperatives of the economy are more
immediate and impingent than those of the polity.

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By Anarcissie, January 23, 2012 at 6:07 am Link to this comment

The big problem with coupling anti-authoritarianism with Christianity or its theological relatives, Judaism and Islam, is that the religions also claim that their God is omnipotent, omniscient, and totally benevolent.  It’s the old Problem of Evil.  I realize that many people do not have any trouble simultaneously entertaining ideas of the world which are radically contradictory, but others do.

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By richard vonschiltz, January 20, 2012 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

for chris and derrick, and others of us that are truly seeking to spiritual see beyond the veil of the world veiw, this is offered respectfully for your consideration. (take a deep breath) “for we are not wrestling with flesh and blood (contending only with physical opponents), but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirit who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly [supernatural] sphere”. ephesians 6:12

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By dhk, September 5, 2010 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

I agree that the main issue is a new kind of Totalitarianism that works out of Corporate bureaucracy and controls. Suspends morality and ethics for profitability and is causing now or very soon catastrophic extinction level events.. Though one such event will end the human experiment on earth.. The President is playing a puppet controlled by these secret groups.

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By dhk, September 4, 2010 at 10:03 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I enjoyed the conversation: It has a long history this problem of manipulation and concealment.. Corporations have been using their dialogue for a very long time its the way they sell themselves and their products.But it really didnt become a disaster till the year 2000 and the selection of the newest CEO Mr Chaney with Bush his side kick..Since then there has been a rapid and if I may so say final descent to hell…So the question is can this situation be saved without help from the unknown??Yes we are in the Twilight Zone…

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By dan, September 4, 2010 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The insidious control by mega Corporations. Is a major issue. The problem is that they the elect have done their homework and since Reagan the methodology for domination has been enormously strenghtened..

Those who own much of the wealth of the world have by many means including secret societies,Control of the media and using the military as their own military.

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By Tobysgirl, July 16, 2010 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

Deb L, you made lots of good points. One of the things that most disturbed me during the sixties was the attitude of blue-collar workers. Gung-ho for Vietnam and kill them blasted students! If they don’t like it here, let ‘em go to Russia! In Europe, students and workers saw their interests as aligned, and one of the most sickening things about the anti-student attitude is that it was a time when there were lots of college students from working-class families.

I also agree with Aaron Parr about economics. In the seventies, I realized that the best alternative to our corrupt and violent society was to form alternative economic situations for people, where they provided for themselves, worked with dignity, and could distance themselves to a degree from an oppressive culture. Something like the Shakers without a religious structure. However, I was a passionate working-class voice in a wilderness, and I never met other leftists interested in this idea. They were more interested in theory and things like community organizing, which never included actual economic alternatives. Yes, people formed credit unions, but nothing that provided people with money and goods.

Now what I see is a society so fractured that people seemingly cannot share anything. I mentioned a tool collective to a mechanic I know who is left-wing (wouldn’t it be nice to share a chipper-shredder, a rototiller, etc?), and he said it would never work because people have no sense of responsibility to the group. Isn’t that pathetic? My husband and I are interested in sharing our place with another couple or a single parent, but my husband figures it will be impossible to find someone responsible. Isn’t that a terrible statement about our society?

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By Anarcissie, July 15, 2010 at 9:01 pm Link to this comment

Justin Weleski, July 14 at 10:15 pm:

‘... Anyway, my basic point is that a peaceful revolution is only peaceful until the protesters start getting shot at.  Then it is a bloodbath.  Violence abound.  We can either factor this into our considerations, or we can continue to spend our evenings debating the finer points of slavery.’

I think a lot depends on the aim of the revolution.  If you are trying to replace one state with another, you are dealing with violence already because you are dealing with the state, whose essential substance is violence.  I don’t think many states, including the liberal ones, have been established without war.  The Civil Rights movement could remain nonviolent because it was not trying to replace the liberal state it arose in, but modify it (rather conservatively!) within its already established principles.  (As one Civil Rights leader said, “We’re just trying to get them to recognize the Constitution.”)

However, one might be trying to do away with the state, or at least weaken its pathologies, its virulence.  In this case non-violent methods are essential.

It is amusing to think of George W. Bush and his gang being tried as war criminals—they certainly deserve it—but I think it is more to the point to withdraw support from and impede their successors.

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By Old Man Turtle, July 15, 2010 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

For someone who so obviously enjoys playing with himself, “Marshall” sure tars other alleged masturbaters with rather a broad brush.  Meantime, he seems no more eager than most here to come to grips with even a remote possibility that his most cherished assumptions and beloved conceits about what’s going-on in this world might be bass-ackwards and not worth the T-P they’re printed-on.  He is probably among the still relatively less uncomfortable, and so looks with feigned disdain upon those already feeling the false “ground” of civilization falling-away beneath their feet.

Marshall may be chanting a different rant, though, when he and his own peers start tumbling into the abyss, as they most assuredly will much sooner than later.

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By Justin Weleski, July 15, 2010 at 7:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Marshall,

The Geneva Conventions are very explicit as to what does and does not
constitute a war crime.  The United States ratified the Conventions, thus we are
are legally bound to these obligations.  The point of my comment (which would
have been quite clear had you taken the time to actually read it) is that law is an
artificial construct supported and enforced by one thing and one thing only;
force.  That is an unarguable statement of fact.  Now, that does not mean I
prefer vigilante justice or that I believe “might makes right,” but simply that a
peaceful revolution and/or inner reform is very likely futile in the face of a
vicious and particularly violent enemy.

As I mentioned previously, early 20th century Spaniards initially reformed their
government in a mostly peaceful and democratic manner.  However, that all fell
apart when Franco and company (with an assist from their fascist super friends
in Italy and Germany) picked up their weapons and refused to obey the “role of
law.”  In other words, the rule of law only extends so far.  Beyond that point,
force is necessary evil (unless, of course, you are so averse to the use of force
that you would rather be cannon fodder than pick up a weapon in defense of
your beliefs/law/government/etc.).

But, of course, academic masturbation only applies to those willing to discuss
tactics and potential solutions?  Those who self-righteously demean others
from the safety of their computer chair are above the fray and eminently
Serious.  Bravo, Marshall, for your valuable contribution.

Justin Weleski

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

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By Marshall, July 15, 2010 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

By Justin Weleski, July 14 at 10:15 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

So Justin - you’ve decided that the Iraq war was illegal and a war crime and you
want others to enforce your personal law?  I guess you could hire your own
personal mercenary force and declare yourself the law of the land or, in this
case, the law of the international land since obviously no domestic laws apply
here.  I suspect you’d run into some degree of opposition from those who don’t
recognize you as representative of international law, not to mention
representatives of actual law who see you as simply an over caffeinated citizen
with a gun.  Or perhaps you believe you represent an authority higher than that
of the law of the land and therefore reserve the right to usurp that law when it
suits you (leaving aside the issue of due process which apparently doesn’t exist
in your version of the law).

So do I get the feeling the discussers of this article are an effete herd of
malcontents loosely congregating here out of some shared sense of purpose or
cult of personality over Hedges?  Yes I do.  But all the academic masturbation is
entertaining nonetheless, as is the fact that some of you actually think you
understand what these two twits are saying and pretend to interpret it for the
rest of us.  Garbage in, garbage out.

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By MarthaA, July 15, 2010 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

rollzone, July 14 at 9:07 pm,

“as if the wealthy need to
continue thinning the herd;”rollzone, July 14 9:07 pm

The wealthy have been thinning the herd long enough.  It is time for a change, but there is not enough awareness, and awareness will come if the Left can have a means of conversing with each other, and the internet is a wonderful tool in that regard. 

The Republican Right is using the Tea Party Movement in an attempt to get the upper hand on any Left Revolution of the populace before the populace Left become fully aware, in order to save their arses, because the Right knows from history that the populace Left will become aware that the Right’s parasites are sucking the blood out of the Left and there will be a revolt. How long it will take depends on how much the Left is suffering, because they have to be suffering to the point of death, before they will revolt to possible certain death en masse to turn the situation around for posterity.

RED Conservatives, Republicans and Democrat, are the problem—NOT the solution.

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By Justin Weleski, July 14, 2010 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Since there are so many angles to tackle this discussion (and many of them
have already been addressed), I will just say this; law is wholly dependent upon
force. That is not to say that I condone the use of force to solve our current
woes, but simply that we can’t allow ourselves to be so naive as to think that
violence and force will not be part of the equation.

Example: the United States illegally invades Iraq. Our invasion and continued
occupation (as well as many of our activities during the occupation) are
undoubtedly war crimes. But who will enforce international law?  Answer: no
one.  The moment an international lawyer or representative of the Hague shows
up at the White House or George W. Bush’s ranch, they will be laughed out of
the country.  The moment Cindy Sheehan and her merry band of war protesters
tries to handcuff Karl Rove, they are tasered and hauled away in shackles.

Or,

Example: A large child picks on a small child on the playground.  No parents or
teachers are around.  The small child begs for the large child to stop, but he
continues.  The playground monitor (a fellow student) demands that the large
child stop and points out the existence of playground rules which expressly
forbid the use of violence on the playground, and then the large child punches
the playground monitor in the mouth and continues his reign of terror.

Such examples are endless.  The moral of the story is that laws rely upon the
use or the threat of force.  If “the revolution” ever occurs, there will
undoubtedly be numerous (and very powerful) groups that have quite a bit
riding on the current system or have been convinced that our proposed
reforms are the work of the devil.  These individuals will almost certainly not
go down without a fight, and these individuals will most likely have vast
resources and weapons at their disposal.

For those of you who think we can simply outlaw the right the bear arms,
renounce violence, and reform inner selves, I ask you to rejoin us in this thing
we call “reality.”  Nonviolent protest can work under certain circumstances and
to a certain extent, but there are other circumstances when nonviolent protest
is a death wish.  MLK was on the verge of sainthood, but a bullet ended both
his life and his much of his movement.  Ghandi played a significant role in
ending British rule, but India is currently afflicted with widespread abject
poverty and despair (human suffering is arguably even greater at this very
moment than it was while the sun still shone brightly on the British Empire). 
Hell, even the Spanish Revolution, an initially peaceful and democratic transfer
of power ultimately ended in a violent and particularly brutal civil war against
the forces of fascism (i.e., the military, the church, and the wealthy capitalists). 
[Note: that list sounds a bit familiar, eh?]  Did I forget to mention that the
fascists won and ruled for decades?

Anyway, my basic point is that a peaceful revolution is only peaceful until the
protesters start getting shot at.  Then it is a bloodbath.  Violence abound.  We
can either factor this into our considerations, or we can continue to spend our
evenings debating the finer points of slavery.

Justin Weleski

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

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By rollzone, July 14, 2010 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment

hello. i did not hear the talk, but i read some
synopsis here. it’s alike there is an inevitable
violent revolution that needs to be organized by a
noble radical revolutionary, in order to restore the
government to the spirit of the founding
Constitution, because money rules. what a load of
intellectual manure. as if the wealthy need to
continue thinning the herd; when it is the herd that
gives them money. in my tiny mind, we came to this
planet in different continents, adapted and evolved
into travelling desperadoes, and are contentedly
slicing up corners of the world for ourselves. our
growth of technology is out pacing our humanitarian
needs at a rate to replace our function within a
couple of generations. what will we all do, if we do
not need to grow, harvest, distribute food and water-
and all clothing and shelter is provided by
technological advances? how are we to be controlled en mass, and to what value will be money? that is my
question, Mr. Truscello. i prefer the concept of
complacent chaos, and to each his own. advance to the
notion that killing people is wrong, and live to
enjoy living. we still all have the chance to realize
the dream. we are not failing, we do not need to
attack the wealthy, the world may or may not come to
an end in 2012, and there is nothing to see here.
move on progressive reformers: spend a little tax on
me.

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By tman, July 14, 2010 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

The people whom are known to be the true enemies of the people of earth and commit the crimes should be identified and should have their photos on a card and be distributed throughout the populations of the world. They should be ostracized from society in every respect. Not waited on in the stores,restaurants and all tradesmen not to work on their properties, no deliveries to their homes and no one speaking to them period. Let them wait on themselves and speak only with their parasitic friends.

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By Aaron Parr, July 14, 2010 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

I suppose some examples of ways to compete economically should be mentioned.

- pull all of your assets and debt out of the main financial markets. Keep your
funds in regionally based credit unions that are self contained (IE no ownership but
member ownership)
- work for locally owned business with a local market.
- buy food directly from small/independent farmers. and grow as much as you can
yourself (even if that is only a few herbs in a box outside your window).
- capture your own water.
- produce your own power.

these are just small steps in the right direction. they don’t require an immediate
shift of economic paradigm but they do starve the beast, and increase your
survivability, and improve the quality of life for everyone in your immediate area.

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By Aaron Parr, July 14, 2010 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

In the conversation between Hedges and Jensen it was fairly clear that both of these men agreed that
the U.S. government lacks a legitimate democratic process. Its been corrupted and co-opted. We can
vote all we want but others with money and real power can do as they please while elections are an
outlet for our anger. Likewise what good is violent revolution? The system is irrelevant now. You can
change it all you want its the power behind it that matters, and I don’t see how you can overthrow an
economic system with violence.

Action is needed yes, but it needs to be effective. Establishing competing and sustainable economic
systems that protect their own resources from exploitation is the only way as I see it. You need to
compete economically. Military and political influence is secondary.

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By Wolfgang Peter May, July 14, 2010 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

When I served as an Advisory Team Leader in Vietnam, first in a tiny outpost north of Kontum, later in Trung Lap, next to a Michelin Rubber Plantation at the edge of the “Iron Triangle”, where we were mortared on a regular basis. My team and I were asked to fight inside the village, while green enemy tracer bullets rained toward us, and only the rapid assistance from armed helicopters from the huge American Base of the American 25th Infantry Division at Cu Chi secured our survival. The resistance of our enemy helped them to survive as well, but we counted their many bodies on the following day.    PEACE!

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By BobbyT, July 14, 2010 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

Wrath of God, thanks for those points. They are all good. In spite of my unrealistic suggestions for alternate government, I have already taken the first step on the quest for a net new alternate government by formally registering my name on this BLOG, and thus on TruthDig. And you? Have you taken the two (2) minutes to formally register on TruthDig? This act is very realistic and very achievable, and for me represents a proxy membership in the new Government of The United States which we should simply declare RIGHT NOW. All in favour of a New United States of America, say AYE!

Recall that I said no violence, no guns, and no right to bear arms. If you are not in agreement with the new constitution which will be declared, you may remain a citizen of the “old” system if it is working for you as a realistic, effective system. It is the old system which NOT working, Wrath of God, not the new system which can not work.

For me, I need a new United States, united around peace, social justice, economic justice, and environmental justice. This precludes a corporate “groupthink”, but includes single pregnant women outside the Health Care system and also includes real jobs.

The realism of my suggested action of forming an alternative governmental system has already worked many times on smaller scales. There is no reason why it would not work on a bigger scale.

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By ikallicrates, July 14, 2010 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment

The idea that everything is property is as old as what we like to call ‘civilization’. From it we derived the idea that those who don’t own property are not fully human. They are themselves property.

We congratulate ourselves that we have outlawed slavery, that people no longer own other people. Now people without property are ‘free’ to rent themselves by the hour to those who do own property. 

What we call ‘civilization’ now faces a crisis whose origins are older than global warming. We have been making war on the environment for as long as we have been making war on each other. The only new development is that now we have the power to destroy it, and ourselves.

In order to save ourselves, we must do more than end corporate control of government, which is a very recent historical development. We must do more than restore what we call ‘democracy’, another very recent historical development. ‘Democracy’ used to mean people governing themselves. Now it means people choosing their masters, through elections. Slaves are no less slaves for having surrendered their freedom willingly.

The idea that everything and everyone is property is so fundamental to what we call ‘civilization’ that we cannot even imagine a society not based on it, a truly democratic society. Not even the revolutionaries could imagine such a society. They often speculated about what a truly democratic society might be, but they knew it was only speculation. They therefore devoted themselves to tearing down the old world, hoping that their children would build a new and better one.

We distrust violence because we live in the brave new world which the children of revolution built, and it seems to us worse that the world which they destroyed.

They tried to change the world for the better, and failed. We have no reason to believe we can do better. That is why we abjure violence. The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.   

But our only hope is another revolution; one that is just as violent, but in a psychological – or, if you prefer, spiritual – way.

We have learned, from experience, that we cannot kill the class system by killing our class enemies. Sun Tzu, in ‘The Art of War’, says that the only sure way to defeat your enemies is by converting them into allies. This is what all the religions have always taught. I am not a believer in any religion, but I believe this. If we don’t learn to live together – if we don’t start a revolution that destroys everything we have always believed – we will die together.

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By diman, July 14, 2010 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

Revolution in the USA, are you kidding me? You people have too much to lose, too many attachments, your so-called jobs, mortgages, golf-club memberships and fucking IPads, Hedges is not a messiah, there is nothing he says that hadn’t been said before about the resistance and revolutions. Instead of listening to him watch “Collapse” with Michael Ruppert, here is the guy who deals with reality.

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By Deb L, July 14, 2010 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Thanks for posting this interview and thought provoking conversation. I would like to hear more from both Jensen and Hedges about how a resistance movement against our current system of corporate control can include strategies that define violence as ‘fighting back’, also in terms that are not physical - for example, we as consumers have extraordinary purchasing power - when there are organized boycotts of companies - we have the power to significantly reduce corporate profit. What we do not have in this country is an understanding of solidarity among working people. Anyone who must work for a paycheck to pay their bills is a ‘worker’ so, even doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc are workers. We are united by economics now - the economic collapse is hitting workers. Look to other countries - when the rail system workers go on strike - other workers support them in a sense of solidarity. Anyone working for a paycheck has more in common with other workers than they ever will with the elite who live off of investment income. I would like to see Americans shake off their fear of discussing ‘class’ - this is not a classless society. We, the workers are subjected to the stranglehold of the corporate elite and one big way to fight back is to stop consuming their products and services. You can get very creative about living simply and stop the crazed impulse to shop, shop, shop. . . become very conscious about how and where you spend your dollars. Talk to others about this and let’s hear more from Jensen and Hedges, thanks!

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By MollyJ, July 14, 2010 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie,

It was an unvarnished, unedited (or barely so) interview.  No polish.  I cannot entirely disagree with your complaint.

BUT…

If you want polished (even uber-polished) try the Colbert Report.

Here were my take homes:

How would you act differently if you “knew” you weren’t living in a functioning democracy?  All the people on the show know we are not but to internalize that into your gut IS paradigm altering.

Everyone was picking their words painfully carefully.  No one wanted to be accused of inciting violence, I guess.  But it was a discussion that was NOT polished sound bites. 

Of conversations like this I sometimes say, the process was more important than the destination.

I was amazed at what a careful listener Chris Hedges is.  He could have elbowed his way in a lot more—and I’m a fan so it would have been fine with me.  But he was actively listening. 

His final words on how violence may be legitimate and may be necessary at some point, he spoke with simple reality about the costs of violence and I sensed he wanted to say more.

Chris Hedges speaking about interviewing one of the few surviving German officers who tried to assassinate Hitler…that’s worth sticking around for.

It most assuredly was not a polished sound bite moment interview.

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By Anarcissie, July 14, 2010 at 9:42 am Link to this comment

I found the interview unlistenable.  I can read about ten times as fast as a person can speak, and so I found myself reading other articles while waiting for these two to get through their uh’s, ah’s, and endless clichés.  Can anyone summarize, assuming there was something besides that sort of thing in the material?

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By Flummox, July 14, 2010 at 9:24 am Link to this comment

I am not going to take a position on whether the use of violence is right or wrong, but I would like to point out that huddling in a defensive position is exactly where we are expected to be. You can sit in your home cultivating your inner awareness, but you whole life will most likely pass before you realize that nobody is listening.

Please, real change is going to take more than meditation and amorphously “spreading the word”. Whether the alternative includes violence I do not know, but something not happening today in America has to start happening before we will start to see results.

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By God of Wrath, July 14, 2010 at 9:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Bobby T, your solution is completely unrealistic and nobody would pay any attention. You can’t just step outside and declare yourself the president, even if you are Chris Hedges. Come on, we need to find practical solutions, not a something that will make everybody think you are a crackpot.

Please learn about the real attitudes and beliefs of Americans, you have to listen to the other side and realize this kind of thing is simply unrealistic.

Also, and this is for everyone, go back and read about HISTORY, these struggles have been going on for a long time. You don’t have to believe violence is the way, but LEARN about revolutions, start with the American and French revolutions and move forward. European history during the 19th Century is a cataclysm of people’s uprisings throwing off the shackles of the conservative order. See 1848, the Paris Commune, the rise of Napoleon…, learn more.

All of us need better perspective if we are going to make a difference, and Bobby T that includes you.

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By ThomasG, July 14, 2010 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

Awareness is the first stage to meaningful change.

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By Old Man Turtle, July 14, 2010 at 8:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Not to belabor the obvious, but is “BobbyT” expecting that the deeply-entrenched, heavily-armed, ruthlessly-determined interests vested entirely in perpetuating the status quo,“power”-wise, will just be so impressed with a CHANGE! to this proposed new paper republic that they’ll gladly give-up their privileged positions and go along with it?  Seems like a lot to HOPE! for. 

Maybe it’s more sensible to face the unpleasant fact that there is for the hapless masses simply no painless way out of their at-least partly self-inflicted predicament.  Anyway, “violence” is just another “toxic mimic” make-believe conceit concocted by the domesticated as part of their vain effort to merely “manage” their condition, rather than taking the increasingly bitter Medicine needed to actually cure it.  There is really no “violence,” as such, in Nature anyhow, anymore than there are any of the myriad other “vices” unique to the carriers of the “civilization” disease.

Most people still seem to want, and think there’s a way to have, what they see as the “advantages” of their sickening captivity, while at-least escaping (themselves) the worst of its devastating effects on the rest of our Living Arrangement.  This is the very definition of damned-foolishness.

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By BobbyT, July 14, 2010 at 7:46 am Link to this comment

Tobysgirl, we take your point, but you are referring to “defensive” acts for the most part.

These are indeed violent, although done in the act of self-defense. These are not what I would consider to be immoral acts, but they will likely still result in blood and tragedy.

My issue is with proactive, preemptive and criminal attacks on installations, people, and institutions. These types of attacks are not done with the idea of keeping peaceful relationships, but are done in anger and frustration. They will result in no lasting change.

We need a new, deeply striking strategic defense, not a tactical and criminal offense. Everyone on this BLOG for example, so stand up and offer all citizens an alternate Governing system.

Let us say that Chris Hedges and some other thinking individuals declare themselves as a new set of collaborative leaders. Then, several new trustees are given desks in a new building in that town in New Jersey, right beside the sewage treatment plant. No guns.

From there, a new government is declared, with a new constitution without the right to bear arms, new required environment laws, rights and freedoms. The offices are stocked with everything needed based on donations. We will need to raise $5 Billion dollars eventually, but $20.00 is a good start (to buy a pen, envelopes, and paper).

Then, Chris Hedges declares himself the new President of the United States and appoints a Minister of Stategic Peace, a Minister of Corporate Disassembly, and a Minister of Funds Distribution to American Single Poor Women.

From then on, the new administration begins to solicit honest participation in the new government. Citizens of the current USA are asked to send letters declaring that all taxes will now go to the new administration. The current debt of the American Government will be erased by having a state of bankruptcy declared.

Also, in this letter, each participant in the new Government of the United States will state that since the representatives of the existing government do not respect the will of people, they will not respect the current tax laws.

This whole unit of activity will require civil and fully peaceful noncompliance. It will be a peaceful, declarative revolt on paper, at least to begin with. Everyone will need to plan how it will all work, and participation will need to be close to 60%.

They key will be that no conflict and no emotion will be allowed to “leak” into tactical violence.

The revolt will need to be 100% based on logic and cold non-compliance, not on hot-blooded anger.

So, Chris? Are you willing to become the new President, peacefully usurping Obama in a non-bloody, paper-based, revolt? I am on your side here in Canada. Perhaps George Strombolopolous can be the Canadian Prime Minister. It can start with just a declaration. Just stand up and say “I am the new President of the United States. Anyone that wants to join our new government needs to follow the plan.” Of course, we need a plan first. Can you imagine if everyone starts walking out of Parliament and all the citizens start sending their taxes to the new Government? All the institutions will need to change. This can be done! Why not start now?

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By Tobysgirl, July 14, 2010 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

You can say what you like about violence, but I suggest people study a bit of labor history. There was a tremendous struggle in the unionization of fur and leather workers, and when the right-wing thugs entered the shop to threaten workers, the workers threw them out of the windows (fur and leather workers tended to be well-armed). I remember the struggle unionizing truck drivers in Ohio when I was a child; my father would tell my mother, “Don’t drive Route 5; they’re shooting at scabs today.” If workers had practiced nonviolence, they would have had no union or a right-wing union, which happened in too many cases.

I believed in nonviolence for many years. I now realize it is a position of privilege that is too often indulged in by those who are not the targets of police violence, not being poisoned by environmental racism, not homeless, etc. At the least I expect rational people to take Farid Esak’s position of being nonviolent, but not condemning people who are being systematically oppressed and murdered for taking up arms. If I had been Vietnamese, I would NOT have been following Thich Nhat Hanh, who came from the upper classes.

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By Uncle B, July 14, 2010 at 5:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Corporatism works very well for a huge number of employees - they love it, thrive on it and profit by it. We have a small number of disenfranchised who cannot adapt for whatever reasons, but for the bigger part corporatism appeals to the human nature. Yes, there are other, better systems available to mankind, but for the time being, and since the rise of America as a super-power, the world endures Capitalism and its cancer, corporatism. Watch China and Asians in general - something is afoot with these people! They have developed a nuclear/electric sourced electric bullet train network and the connected social infrastructure up and running today - not oil dependent, eating veggies and rice and selling goods to the Americans for oil based dollars yet they themselves use none. This leverage will break the American economy, and change the economic picture for the world.

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By C.Curtis.Dillon, July 14, 2010 at 3:00 am Link to this comment

Much as violence appears to be a viable solution, it isn’t.  As Hedges pointed out, when the population began to fight back, it was the criminal elements who took up guns first and they did so for their own benefit, not for the population as a whole.  When you resort to violence, you become no better that the person you resist.  Violence is a last resort, when your life and your family are directly threatened.  And, unfortunately, violent opposition usually requires a leader who can gel that anger into something coherent.  All to often, that leader is just another sociopath who will, when the revolution is completed, become the next despot who needs to be resisted yet again.  I don’t have any simple answers to this other than to point out one important point: the corporate state only exists if the individual members buy into the deception.  If we stop buying their products, they become powerless.  Their power rests on our backs and we do have the ability to resist.  I walked away from America 5 years ago and live a very austere and yet satisfying life in Eastern Europe.  I have a small (600 sq. ft) flat and we buy most of our food from vendors on the street.  We use public transportation and buy only the minimum of material things so we can live.  Our footprint is very small.  If everyone did the same thing, the entire corporate system would begin to fail because it requires a continuous flow of money from consumers to survive.  Kill the system by refusing to be part of it.  Build alternative systems of distribution ... barter if necessary.  Simplify your lives as much as you can and refuse to fuel this monster anymore.  Starve the beast by cutting off its source of money.  Otherwise, we will perpetuate the deception forever.

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By Marshall, July 14, 2010 at 1:23 am Link to this comment

Another incomprehensible argument from Hedges and friends.  While Jenson’s
efforts to repopulate frogdom by hatching tadpoles in his kitchen sink is touching
and amusing if not unsanitary (his wife’s good with this?), I love the part where he
takes a quantum physics principle and willy-nilly applies it to human culture, all
with the simple conversion: “in other words”.  I expect we’ll see these guys
torching SUVs soon at local dealerships, jumping off the brooklyn bridge or, more
likely, continuing to profit off their tomes of doom schtick.

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By AladdinSane, July 13, 2010 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I like lots of what I see on Truthdig, but the 2nd
half of this discussion and many posts on this
comment board are truly absurd.  We don’t succeed in
a struggle for social justice/mental and physical
freedom by becoming the enemy we despise.  I have not
read Jensen’s books, but all he is talking about is
revenge.  Revenge for crimes committed over the
centuries and now leading to the destruction of the
planet.  This is reactionary, not revolutionary.  If
humans have evolved beyond the confines of our old
political systems, we may also have evolved beyond
our old modes of change.  Current leftist thinkers
know the first part, but need to understand the
necessity of a corresponding paradigm shift in
realistic revolutionary theory. 

Admittedly, I don’t have the solutions.  I’m busy
learning and working and living my life.  But I do
think that if we all learn, work, and live for the
betterment of society, and encourage others to do the
same, we could win in the long-run.  Hopefully, it’s
a marathon and not a race. 

Full disclosure, I’m a passivist and I question any
person/system which believes violence can enable
progress.  Violent systems are always hierarchical
and thus inherently dangerous no matter what their
motives….Alright, enough of my two cents.

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By Michael Truscello, July 13, 2010 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As the (largely silent) moderator of the discussion between Jensen and Hedges, I appreciate your comments.

We have discussed doing a second conversation, a continuation of this topic. If we do, are there questions you would like me to ask Derrick and Chris?

Please post them here.

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By reverento., July 13, 2010 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

Been waiting for some New A/V from Chris to surface.
Good Talk! In the end I think only a non-violent avant-
garde will succeed. A violent resistance is to easily
squelched, demonized, or assimilated to be effective.

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By samosamo, July 13, 2010 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

****************


doublestandards/glasshouses, July 13 at 8:08 pm

You bring out the obvious ‘attack’ from the financial sector and
‘wrath of god’ brings out the point about violent revolution as a
means. And even chris hedges gives it just due when he rightly
so uses the right to defend one’s self and family and property as
completely appropriate.

As it stands the elite basically give themselves the right to
attack, harm and kill those that they so obviously want to take
out of their way, so it should stand to reason that anyone has the
right to defend themselves and those around them. And the
scotus’ latest decision to knock down the barriers to the right to
possess firearms has a cautiously eerie reasoning behind it like
they may be trying to ‘level the playing field’, but I would not
count on that because this is class warfare. And need anyone be
aware of robotics and automation?

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By srelf, July 13, 2010 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment

that’s “...TIED to the voice monitor” not “...ties…”
Ugh. Fingers no like keyboard!

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By srelf, July 13, 2010 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

Besides a wonderful discussion, I really like the light show ties to the voice
monitor!

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By Peter Knopfler, July 13, 2010 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

Great conversation,
I wish to remind Chris and his friends, Derrick,
that Mark Kurlansky, wrote a book forward by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Book is called
NONVIOLENCE twenty-five Lessons from the History of a dangerous idea. A must for all of US.
Unfortunately the bigger picture says,  Science has and is now at the mercy of the military mind. 70 years science a victim to a military industrial complex. The God religion is a distraction, first aid ointment on a wound, but no guarentee on the next attack. Combine this collective history with;
Childhood abuse leads to Adult addiction, no perfect parents, throughout history child abuse is common,last 800 years everyone born into addiction, in all forms. Corporate dicatorship pharmacutical or military, slavery is the end result, all part of a Technical Takeover. Hidden agenda`s is the lurking enemy of A FREE Humanity. Home education! Free thinking and FREE the GIRLS!

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By Michael H, July 13, 2010 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

After having the good luck of meeting Chris Hedges and listening to him lecture, I read Empire of Illusions. My initial reaction to his work was an overwhelming sorrow for the days ahead. Whether we can fight this or not, whether the modern world that we built so quickly or the people this world supports can resemble anything we know for much longer is largely out of our control, those seeds planted long ago. To those who share Jenson’s and Hedge’s worldviews, who understand enough about the workings of nature, philosophies, politics, and society and agree that time is nearly out, they must redefine his or her life’s purpose, his or her moral cosmology if they are maintain their integrity and in some small measure oppose this death spiral. The bottom line is that this world of pain is about to come home to everybody and we may be seeing the end of what will be once considered the good times. Speaking for myself, I feel that preparing for this future is a moral imperative. I’ll spend my time learning, and try to put into practice what I learn to help people. In hard times, I expect to be rubbed out, one way or another. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. It’s difficult, because few people are aware or even interested in talking of these things, and because most reactions are hard and poorly thought out, that the average stranger with the quick opinion succumbs to fatalism or is in denial or for whatever reason still lacks the grit they’ll eventually need. Hedge speaks so much of people’s atrophy that I fear when the shock hits, in their weakness and aggression and fear they’ll turn on anybody. It’s genuine horror to guess what a man could turn into and the future will have its tragic perpetrators and its tragic victims. If men survive at all, future generations will dig up our artifacts and listen to us and discover how foolish and disgusting and beautiful we once were, and hopefully they won’t buy into too many of our lies.

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By doublestandards/glasshouses, July 13, 2010 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The July issue of Harper’s magazine featured a report on Goldman Sachs’ role in the enormous increase in food prices - in particular the world wide price of wheat - during the period of 2005 to 2008.  They created a bubble in commodities prices in order to make huge profits.  They were unconcerned with the consequences for the world’s poor.  It is clear that corporatism is a disease, a pestilence which must be faced up to by the people of this country.

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By Commune115, July 13, 2010 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

@Tito and Robert, that “revolution from within” crap won’t solve anything either. Capitalism is not taking the time to meditate and get in touch with its inner being of light, it is a ruthless enterprise that takes no prisoners. Go tell the Greeks who are seeing their lives literally threatened by the system to just calm down and “change from within.” Or go sell that s—t to starving peasants in India or Palestinians seeing their homes demolished in the West Bank and Jerusalem.

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By God of Wrath, July 13, 2010 at 2:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Yes violence will cause further problems and perhaps won’t ultimately solve “the problems”, as many posters have written. But another equally true statement is waiting around for some magical new solution to come along causes problems too.

People looking for “revolutions within” and other such impractical and muddled solutions are guilty messianism and will always be left “waiting for the miracle to come”. And in the mean time nothing changes and the world boils, the rich still get richer and Jesus never returns.

Now is the time for practical action, not meditating our way to a new far-out kind of consciousness, man.

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By samosamo, July 13, 2010 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment

****************


Once again a discourse that totally leaves out the unfettered
growth of humans which IS the HERE AND NOW problem,
standing at ~7,000,000,000 people and growing. Just how in the
world are all these people to be saved, how is the burgeoning
population to be ‘sustained’ with the current social systems that
should be working to sustain a reasonable coterie of humans.

Sure, violent revolution is a means to an end and that could do
what needs to be done, reduce the number of unsustainable
numbers. So even be it by the people themselves by violence, or
some intelligent and humane way, nature will take a hand and do
the job, most all of which will not be a pretty thing to behold.

What would be best is to instill, if possible, in all the need to
stop this cancerous growth of humans that has no other
function but to severely disrupt all life on this planet in some
shape, form or fashion and with a disease as cancer, cures
involve radical treatment.

Exercise in futility:

If the population is at 7,000,000,000 people and that a certain
amount of that number are of greedy, mean and criminal intent,
how many of the 7,000,000,000 are of this bent?

And as for reaching all people, that would require a functional
msm instead of the conservative owned ‘ministry of truth’ that
dumbs and numbs the major portion of the people in this
country and other countries and breaking the hold that current
religious and political ideology have on people.

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By Tito Alvarez, July 13, 2010 at 11:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I sense the level of frustration in Mr. Jensen’s voice but at the same time Mr. Hedges awareness and expression of where we are as a nation cannot help but to make us more aware the need of some type of revolution.

What is needed is a peaceful revolution, a “Human revolution” which is the term used by second Soka Gakkai President Josei Toda.  When we change on a fundamental level it creates a wave of change in society as well as the planet.

As SGI President Daisaku Ikeda explains: “There are all sorts of revolutions: political revolutions, economic revolutions, industrial revolutions, scientific revolutions, artistic revolutions…but no matter what one changes, the world will never get any better as long as people themselves…remain selfish and lacking in compassion. In that respect, human revolution is the most fundamental of all revolutions, and at the same time, the most necessary revolution for humankind.”

See also the Peace Proposals submitted yearly by Mr. Ikeda
http://www.sgi.org/proposals.html

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By dcrimso, July 13, 2010 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

If Jensen’s stance bothers you, then you haven’t reached the bottom of your addiction.  You will reach the bottom when you no longer fear losing your life.  For the most of us, we live in a double bind, which we know makes people crazy.  The bind is thus:
“Out of fear, we remain committed to a system that has every appearance of heading for catastrophe.  If the economy of consumption is ultimately nonsustainable, then our efforts to sustain the economy are also efforts to sustain the certain arrival of disaster”.  So then the question becomes, as James Hillman has framed it, is how then do we behave knowing we are going down on the Titantic?  The previous quotation was from Curtis White’s book “The Spirit of Disobedience”.

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By MollyJ, July 13, 2010 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

I found this discussion very interesting.  I fully echo Chris Hedges point that violence unleashes the inevitable problems of violence but I also welcome a discussion _beyond_ handwringing.

I think that their mutual agreement on the point that we don’t live in a functioning democracy is pretty profound.

Solutions will come from without the system.

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By robertaustin, July 13, 2010 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

Violent resistance will not get us out of the mess we are in, since we would be violently resisting ourselves (i.e. committing suicide). I like Chris Hedges, but I think he should have distanced himself from most of Derrick Jensen’s silly comments. I haven’t read Jensen, but to listen to him, he just sounds like a typical revolutionary who get a kick out of biting the hand that feeds him and feeling sorry for those not as fortunate as himself. We, all of us capable of consuming, are part of the consumer culture that supports, perhaps unwillingly, the plutocrats we rail against. If we want a much more benevolent society, we must opt out of the one we are currently supporting. Stop buying crap, live a sustainable lifestyle, don’t pay taxes, since these taxes support an empire that exists to serve our appetites. If you don’t like being fat, stop eating! There is no conspiracy of malevolent fat white cats acting to stomp indigenous peoples, the poor, or the natural world. If the so-called “indigenous” people were in the Plutocrat’s positions, it would be very much the same. We are simply struggling against self interest gone awry. We are suffering from human nature on an unprecedentedly large scale. Revolution is always a struggle waged without. An outward struggle may at best achieve short term gains, and we will soon slide back, likely to a worse position. We need a to wage a new battle - from within.

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By Tobysgirl, July 13, 2010 at 8:22 am Link to this comment

“It began to seem that one would have to hold in the mind forever two ideas which seemed to be in opposition. The first idea was acceptance, the acceptance, totally without rancor, of life as it is, and men as they are: in the light of this idea, it goes without saying that injustice is a commonplace. But this does not mean that one could be complacent, for the second idea was of equal power: that one must never, in one’s own life, accept these injustices as commonplace but must fight them with all one’s strength.” James Baldwin, “Notes of a Native Son.”

I struggle with this paradox daily, and for me it speaks to the discussion between these three men. Most people are unable, emotionally and mentally, to tackle looking reality in the eye, accepting it, resisting it. We cannot wonder about people’s escape into infantilism when very few of us are prepared to face the obscene horrors we have created.

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By ThomasG, July 13, 2010 at 6:32 am Link to this comment

kerryrose, July 13 at 8:28 am,

The American Populace is still engaged in the acquisition of constructive awareness that is necessary to deal with the collapse of privatized capitalism.

Privatized capitalism is a dead and bankrupt system and the American Populace know that.

What is different about privatized capitalism’s most recent death on September 18, 2008, from all of its other cyclical deaths of the past???

The difference is awareness in the American Populace of the reality of privatized capitalism, rather than the American Dream of the propaganda of privatized capitalism.

It is now time to build awareness and implement a measured solution that will replace privatized capitalism as an economic system, and I advocate social capital and socialized capitalism, as I have represented and advocated socialized capitalism on many threads of this Truthdig forum.

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By Old Man Turtle, July 13, 2010 at 6:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

How might the focus and possible results of this discussion change, if the following is correct?

—Human Beings do not in actual fact occur and are not viable in Nature as “individuals.”  We are, naturally, Persons, however, of which the ersatz “individual” is by-design what Derrick Jensen calls a “toxic mimic.”

—“Individuals,” as such, are in-fact among the principal artifacts of that same “civilization” process presently wreaking terminal havoc on our Living Arrangement.

—The organic function of Humanity, as such, within the Living Arrangement is as a vital component in Earth’s immune system.

—The viable organic form of Humanity, in-keeping with our given function, is what most English speakers would call “community.”  Unfortunately, that once useful term has been devalued almost to worthlessness by being systematically applied to virtually every random collection of “individuals” around.

—“Civilization” presents here not as an inevitable “phase” in mankind’s “development,” but as a deadly disease.  Such make-believe and up-for-grabs abstractions as “morality” and all its dead-end permutations, have no bearing whatsoever on either the “genesis” or the “progress” of this fatally aberrant condition.

—The industrial-strength “individual”-ization of most of Humanity is the main vector in an immuno-suppression regime intended to force our Mother Earth to “adopt” and feed and support the propagation-of an invasive, retro-viral, and trying-to-be-parasitical “alien” form known among ancient Peoples as “the destroyer of worlds.”

—The mass of Humanity today being almost entirely out-of-form, its essential organic function is not being fulfilled sufficiently to resist the depredations of the “civilization” disease.  The “civilized” themselves are currently experiencing finally many of the worst “unintended side-effects” of their own induced dysfunction, which can only become daily more severe as Mr. Jensen’s ENDGAME of “civilization” runs its accelerating course.

—“Politics” and “economics” and “religion” are nothing but more of the “toxic mimics” designed to prevent our Mother Earth from effective “resistance” to the otherwise inevitably terminal prognosis that has been the fate of no few of Her Sister-worlds stretching half-way across this Nourishing Way Galaxy.

—The specific remedy for what ails our Living Arrangement is the restoration of Humanity’s organic function to the range of its vital responses.  The specific remedy for what ails Humanity is the recovery of its natural organic form.  Anything else, or less, in either case, will prove worse than merely useless.

So, if the domesticated peoples insist on continuing their fecklessly trivial pursuit of blissfully ignorant “happiness,” Earth Herownself will much sooner than later be listed among the casualties.  Grow-up, get whole, do your “job,” tame Sisters and Brothers, or perish of your own institutionalized juvenile delinguency.  Your “situation” really is just that basic and simple.

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By expat in germany, July 13, 2010 at 6:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I feel like kerryrose. Intellectually, I agree with the ideas; but emotionally, I seesaw between abject hopelessness and qualified optimism. When I see photos of waterfowl covered in oil, my heart constricts in sorrow. On the other hand, life is short, and we should enjoy that blink in time we are allotted. I think a “middle way” is possible. Perhaps we each need to do away with the belief that we can, in one lifetime, “fix” the world’s problems. Then we won’t feel so overwhelmed by them. Instead, we can continue to live by our own highest moral code, whatever that is. Futile or not, I do buy organic food and hang my laundry outside. I still drive a car, however, and drink imported coffee from a country that should probably not be growing so much. I think we should find our own comfort zone without being preachy. [By the way, ironically, the characters in the box I need to retype are “reached54,” my exact age.]

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By kerryrose, July 13, 2010 at 4:28 am Link to this comment

The similarity in attitude between Jensen and Hedges is amazing.  I’ve often wondered if they have met.  There is a big difference between how they affect me, though.

I read Hedges every week, and I’ve read his books without feeling overwhelmed but strengthened.  While reading my second book of Jensen ‘Problems of Civilization’ I started to feel hopeless.  I had to put it down.

I still have to function in the world.  I try to make a difference in my work, although that is becoming more and more difficult.  Jensen makes me feel like buying a shack on the dunes of Provincetown and living alone in contemplation.  I can’t do that (yet)... I have to live in this world.

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By Commune115, July 13, 2010 at 2:55 am Link to this comment

In America we automatically shy away from mentioning “violence” when confronting capitalism because let’s be honest, we’ve live very comfortably when compared to other corners of the globe, we are like the frog in the boiling pot. In countries like Greece, Bolivia, most of Latin America, when people can’t take it anymore they take to the streets and will use violence if it gets to that point. Martha provides a great example with Iran, but in Iran the revolutionaries also armed themselves, formed militias and executed many of the Shah’s goons even before Khomeini arrived in Tehran.

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By MarthaA, July 12, 2010 at 11:47 pm Link to this comment

The Reza Shah Pahlavi’s administration in Iran was overthrown by the populace and he fled for his life when the populace united and did not go to work anywhere all over the nation in any form of work, police, military and private industry, and instead the populace converged on the corrupt regime and overthrew the corrupt regime and regained control of their government.  Neither the military nor the police, who are all members of the populace, would obey the corrupt regime and the corrupt regime was overthrown. 

If the nation gets too corrupt, this same thing can happen in the United States.

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By Aaron Parr, July 12, 2010 at 8:05 pm Link to this comment

I also enjoyed listening to the discussion.

While I do think that violence should be considered as an option, I believe it should
only be used in immediate self-defense. Otherwise you risk your own annihilation,
and the real name of the game at this point is survival. Someone has to survive if
humanity is to persist, and I’d like my descendants to be part of the future.

Resorting to violence ultimately results in putting you on the wrong end of a gun.
Iraq and Afghanistan have amongst other things been a proving ground for
mercenary military. As everything is privatized in the US, I don’t see it far fetched
that these same forces will be used on citizens that have been labeled “terrorists”.
The entire war on terror has resulted in an intensification of Cointelpro. Its a
hardliner’s means to establish control over the disenfranchised who organize and
stand up for themselves.

I believe that as long as we do not give the powers that be justification for using
violence on us, we have a better chance of outlasting them. If we want to protect
the world from the powers that be we need to generate sustainable economic
systems now. We need to work for our economic independence and preserve it as
much as possible. We need to put people who care about the land on it. Where ever
you live if you care about it, you need to persist there and protect it. Without it you
will die. But unless you can generate a counter economy, a local economy, your well
being will be at the whim of global corporatists.

The poverty industry in the US was long practiced world wide. Monsanto for
example wants the world’s agriculture to be beholden to it. Goldman Sachs is
essentially an international Pay Day Loan outlet. And these same corporations have
used violence on people who were unable to defend their way of life. This is coming
home to the US. We may not be able to mobilize the corrupted federal government
to our defense, but I think it would be foolish to believe that you can not influence
those immediately around you to protect themselves. City governments and their
regions need to recognize that their survival is contingent upon relying less upon
global trade and more on sustainable local subsistence (economically speaking you
need 100% import replacement because Free Trade Agreements are organized to
starve you to death if you rely upon trade and your public policy runs counter to
the interests of global corporatists).

Certainly the powers that be fight regional autonomy at every turn because it limits
the size of their markets. If you give them any justification to use violence to
displace you or make you beholden to you, they will. But if you can inspire others to
resist economically (Again some South American nations are becoming good
examples of this. Bolivia for example. Perhaps Venezuela and Brasil as well.) you
have the support of each other. And through each other the attrocities of the likes
of Bechtel, Monsanto, Halliburton, BP etc… can be broadcast globally to encourage
more resistance. I suppose what I am saying is that fighting for the minds of others
is integral to our survival. And I’ll just leave this long ramble at that.

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By xNoGodx, July 12, 2010 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Awesome! Hedges and Jensen together? Am I dreaming? Keep an eye out for Jensen and Submedia.tv’s “End CIV”!!!

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By BobbyT, July 12, 2010 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment

Excellent repartée, men! After reading “Empire of Illusion”, I restarted my read of Carl Jung’s “Mysterium Coniunctionis” (Carl Jung, Princeton University, Seventh Printing, 1989 ISBN 0-691-09766-6). Jung talks about “The Unus Mundus” (pp. 533). We are looking for a conjunction of our consciousness with our needs as men and women. Our needs now are for a world in which we can breath and earn a living. The process of struggle and failure is a normal part of non-violent resistance. But we do need a new symbolism - and the enemy is not the Jews, but the enemy is our manufacturing processes, our consumption processes, our patterns of destruction. These processess must be killed, not the men who control them. We don’t destroy the process through violence but through literacy and a new form of symbolism that will “rally” the consciousness of men and women to the new duty.

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By BobbyT, July 12, 2010 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Violence will not solve the problems, as evidenced by World War II and by Vietnam, the Korean War, and so on. For example, blowing up a Coal Fired Power Plant will have physical consequences that will likely cause even more pollution - who will clean up the mess? Killing leaders will not help either. Kill one rat, and 50 more come to feed on the corpse.

What we need is a new symbolism and new iconography that changes the focus of the masses away from Sex and Wrestling. We need to get peoples attention some other way, that bypasses the corporate media. Chris’ book, Empire of Illusion, was a good start for me, and after reading that I continued with Carl Jung.

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