ancient toddler,

I’m not sure how to interpret the substance of your post, but you definitely deserve a shout out for creativity!  Hamster dance?  That’s a good one…

Popular movies can create movie stars and heroes.  Impressionable minds emulate their heroes.  What study can anyone cite which refutes this?

Maani—

This little debate we are having is a microcosm of what democracy should be—what it used to be.  Unfortunately, I fear those days of democratic debate are gone for a while.

You raised a very good point about flaws in the AZ bill.  But Arizona people know that as well.  I would guess that most Arizonans view most Mexicans the same way I do—with good will and good intentions.

We have gotten to this point of a bad AZ bill because our democratic institutions are not otherwise working.  We sit around and debate on websites, while drug gangs assert violent control.  Essentially, a gun fight has broken out along the border towns.  America has shown up to the gunfight with blog sites and law books; while Mexican drug gangs have shown up with automatic weapons.  That is reality on the ground, whether we like it or not.

Mr. Rodriguez’s trailer would have been funny without this explosive problem.  But today, it is not funny—at least not to me. 

And while all your debate points are interesting and noteworthy in their own right, you have steadfastly avoided comment on my key issues: drug gangs hunting cops.  I suppose you don’t have any answer for that problem—THE problem—so you change topics and attack me on ancillary issues.  That is fine for debate class or courtroom argument, but doesn’t help solve the real problem that people on the border are grappling with.

Best of luck to you—and thanks for the interesting debate.  Keep reading Chris Hedges and figure out how to prepare yourself and your family and community for any eventuality.

mcbridek:

“I think that Mr. Rodriguez’s pouring gas on a very volatile situation in AZ is a very bad idea right now, and shows a serious lack of judgment on the part of the moviemakers who are safely tucked away in West Los Angeles or NYC.”

Let’s keep in mind that this movie was conceived of and filmed LONG before there was an AZ law, or even any broad discussion of the growing problem there.  So it is a bit odd to blame Rodriguez and the moviemakers.

“Arizonans face a very real physical threat to their lives—especially those who protect and serve.  The TV shows and commentators up in arms about the AZ law do NOT face these same threats, and are unfairly piling on the AZ law.  This is also not a racist comment.  Mexican-Americans and Mexican immigrants, legal or not, are (in my observation) absolutely wonderful and likeable people. I mean that.  They are not the problem—they are also not associated with violence.  The drug gangs, entirely out of control in these parts, ARE the problem, and ARE associated with violence.”

Do you see the contradiction here?  You say that people are “unfairly piling on the AZ law,” but then say, “Mexican-Americans and Mexican immigrants, legal or not, are…absolutely wonderful and likeable people…They are not the problem—they are also not associated with violence.  The drug gangs, entirely out of control in these parts, ARE the problem, and ARE associated with violence.”

But the AZ law is not intended (or is certainly not written) solely for the drug gangs: it is written in such a way that ALL Mexican-Americans are at risk of profiling and worse.  It is, in a word, draconian, and, in the opinion of many (including me), proto-totalitarian.

“Again my main points: (1) cops in border towns are being hunted and ambushed by mexican drug gangs.  (2) This is a very alarming situation that carries seriously bad consequences for all of society—in the border towns as well as for you liberal guys in NYC; (3) Mr. Rodriguez, a bad-guy character actor making a movie about shooting cops, seems to be inflaming a seriously dangerous situation; (4) that seems like a very bad idea with possible unintended consequences.”

Re (1), again, if drug gangs are the problem, I am sure that Ms. Brewer could have created a bill that was more narrowly targeted.  After all, even much of her law enforcement community is against the bill.  Re (2) Not everyone in NYC is liberal.  Re (3), Maybe, maybe not.  Re (4) Any “consequences” would be the result of conscious choices in reaction to A MOVIE.  Thus, if those consequences include violence or other illegal activity, one cannot blame them ON the movie, one can only blame them on the reactions of individuals who apparently see no issue in breaking one law to support another.  It would be the same thing as a pro-life zealot murdering a doctor who performs abortions.

Peace.

Maani,

Nice dialog. 

First, your suggestion that a causal relationship between violent movies/video games and violence is society has NOT been debunked at all.  You may have a different opinion on the matter, but in my view, it is far from an “old canard” and actually is a real problem.

Second, I am not suggesting at all a first amendment limitation on speech.  As you may recall from my original post, I only suggested that there are a lot of rednecks in border areas who didn’t find the video funny and that Mr. Rodrgiuez should be careful for what he wishes for, because there are seriously old-fashioned guys in border town areas who will not tolerate any more drug gang violence, and will not tolerate police being hunted or shot in their communities.  These guys are prone to do more more than pontificate about political policies on a website.

My comments were not intended to limit free speech or to otherwise be a threat.  But seriously, I think that Mr. Rodriguez’s pouring gas on a very volatile situation in AZ is a very bad idea right now, and shows a serious lack of judgment on the part of the moviemakers who are safely tucked away in West Los Angeles or NYC. 

Arizonians face a very real physical threat to their lives—especially those who protect and serve.  The TV shows and commentators up in arms about the AZ law do NOT face these same threats, and are unfairly piling on the AZ law. 

This is also not a racist comment.  Mexican-Americans and Mexican immigrants, legal or not, are (in my observation) absolutely wonderful and likeable people. I mean that.  They are not the problem—they are also not associated with violence.  The drug gangs, entirely out of control in these parts, ARE the problem, and ARE associated wtih violence.

Again my main points: (1) cops in border towns are being hunted and ambushed by mexican drug gangs.  (2) This is a very alarming situation that carries seriously bad consequences for all of society—in the border towns as well as for you liberal guys in NYC; (3) Mr. Rodriguez, a bad-guy character actor making a movie about shooting cops, seems to be inflaming a seriously dangerous situation; (4) that seems like a very bad idea with possible unintended consequences.

Finally, I used to have liberal leanings, which is why I read this site in the first place.  No longer.  I agree with Artful Dodger that this site made sense when we were all united against George Bush.  Right now, it seems like an apologist site for the policies of Barak Obama and liberalism in general, none of which I agree with. 

The noted exception on this site is Chris Hedges.  Hedges sounds an alarm bell each and every Monday.  He tells everyone who will listen that things are going to hell unless we fix them quickly.  I agree with Hedges—it really does seem that societal unrest is close at hand. We can no longer afford to sit back in an ivory tower of intellectual impotence and preach peace and love to all.  Wish it were different, but its not. 

So, Manni, peace to you as well—but you might want to know how to protect yourself and your family and your NYC neighborhood—just in case.

mcbridek:

I live in NYC.  We not only have car bombs, we also have gangs (though not Mexican ones) who are also a problem for local law enforcement.  And, of course, we have plenty of other violence and law enforcement issues.

But that’s not the point.  You obviously support the old canard that movies, video games, etc. “create” violence; i.e., add to violence in our soceity.  That notion has been debunked so many times in so many studies that it is absurd to suggest it.

But even were it true, should we simply stop making movies about subjects that are “difficult?”  Should all movies be happy, funny, feel-good entertainment?

I don’t need to tell you how dangerous it would be to go down that road.  After all, almost any movie is going to offend SOMEONE in some way.  And while some films are, in fact, “trash” (though I think Machete will be as “artful” as it is trashy), we - thankfully - still have a First Amendment, and I hope you are not suggesting we start limiting it.

Peace.

Looks like 20th Century Fox took the video down.

Hmmmmmmmm.

Maani,

It would be great if this movie were just like any other foray into Hollywood fantasyland (LOL), but it gets dangerously close to very real problems.  Police in Hemet Calif. are being hunted by mexican gangs. A cop in AZ was ambushed by mexican gangs.  These are unprecedented actions in recent US history. How many police will continue to server if they continue to be hunted?  What will happen to our nice civilized society if police get tired of being shot at?

Increasing violence is very real for people living in border cities.  Violence may not seem real or immediate in the town or city in which you live, but the fear of mexican gang violence is very real for very many people.  Many of our cities in Calif. and AZ are just a banana peel away from decending into seriously dangerous situations.

Inciting more violence with a movie that glorifies mexicans hunting cops might have seemed harmless 10 years ago—even 2 years ago—but today it seems like a bad idea that portends bad consequences.

Mcbridek:

Oh, for Pete’s sake: it’s only a movie.  The trailer is brilliant, and I’m sure the film will be as well.  Great cast, great director.  I’ve been waiting for this one since Grindhouse.  Danny Trejo is one of the best character actors in film, and is pat-perfect for the role.

So take a chill pill and enjoy!  LOL.

It’s one thing for an ugly mexican character actor to fight Steven Segal and Robert Deniro, but there are lots of rednecks up here who may be a bit tougher and better with guns—and don’t find this trailer very funny.  Be careful of what you ask for, Mr. Rodriguez…