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Who Speaks for the Palestinians?

Posted on Aug 1, 2009
Link TV report

Fateh, the largest faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization, will soon convene in an atmosphere charged with corruption, fraught with rifts and tales of betrayal and espionage fit for a John le Carré novel, as this installment of Link TV’s “Mosaic Intelligence Report” illustrates.

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By Sepharad, August 7, 2009 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, your “j’accuse” mode, used against me as well as other commenters, is pretentious as it’s derivative from a finer mind than your own, and once again off-target. My “facade” is liberal because that’s what I am, if perhaps farther left of the mainstream liberal in terms of civil liberties and freedom of speech. 

You have no comprehension of the broad swath covered by the term “Zionist.”  In high school, our choir directed by a French woman sang Christmas music for Christian old folks homes, and Jewish music for Jewish old folks homes. One of the most requested among other very old songs goes, “Fair Zion, my pure dove, fair Zion my sweet love, from afar for thy pleasures I long. Benumbed be my hand, if I forget thee my fair land, till cruel death has stopped my sweet song.” (We sometimes sang it in French or Dutch or German or Hebrew, when asked.) Zion, like the African-American’s Africa, is every Jew’s “roots”, in every Jew’s DNA.

Because I don’t live there perhaps I’m not technically a Zionist, just shorthand for “secular pro-Zionist”, but I’m not ashamed to support the existence and survival of Israel as it is part of my own roots, tradition and culture, AND, once accepted would be very good for the surrounding Arab societies.  As you yourself have pointed out, oppressing Palestinians is NOT the road to survival. But compromising in an attempt to placate deluded, politically-correct people like yourself, who seek every opportunity to disparage Israeli Jews, many of whom are doing everything they can to help Palestinians achieve a sustainable state of Palestine, not only hurts Israel but hurts the Palestinians because your hate-fueled rhetoric enourages those Arabs who would rather hate and kill than than cooperate and move forward with their lives.

Does it not seem strange to you that IMF’s Salam Fayyad, a Palestinian nationalist, not only offered a hand in friendship to Israeli Jews by saying they would be welcome to live in a Palistinian state that would be characterized by tolerance, but also sees some economic growth in the West Bank whereas there is virtually none in other Arab societies, according to the just-released UN update on Arab societies by dozens of Arab scholars?  At the very least, his attitude as well as that report implies that contact with Israel has been of some benefit to the Palestinians.

As you well know, my affiliation with Peace Now and Meretz party—both founded by the Jerusalem-born writer and philosopher Amos Oz—
demonstrates the direction I want Israel to go, probably the only direction that will work for Jews and Arabs alike. You often state that your wish is for the Palestinians to get some weapons. It might surprise you to know that my murderous Zionist ideology includes the belief that a viable Palestinian state cannot survive without its own army and security police, which are sufficiently armed to defend their state against its enemies inside and outside their borders. They are already defending themselves against Hamas militants within the West Bank, but as an independent Sunni nation they will have other equally lethal sectarian and extremist enemies whose idea of Islam’s brotherhood stops at the sectarian border.

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By Folktruther, August 4, 2009 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment

I accuse you, Sepharad, of KNOWLINGLY hijacking Zionism into a ziofascist direction, KNOWINGLY favoring war and ethnic cleansing.  Of KNOWINGLY presenting a liberal facade to cover up a bloodthirsty, and historically defeatist. policy.  The historical outcome of that policy is mass slaughter, and you know that too.

I know you don’t hate the Arabs.  You simply want to deprive them of their homes, land, water, and country to support Israel.  And it is quite true that Muslim countries are ruled by a small, repressive and corrupt Elite, which the US and Israel support, and you know that too.  You identify with evil, and no country can survive with a leadership who does.

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By Sepharad, August 4, 2009 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, you sound like an intelligent person but with something slightly off or missing in your perception so that you keep repeating stuff that isn’t true. Oz, of all the people I mentioned, is the one I most identify with. He is a Zionist too, does not think military force will solve any problems except perhaps prevent a massacre. His party is Peace Now, and mine is too. There has to be some reason you like to think I’m bloodthirsty, because I’m not and you keep repeating it.

As anyone who knows me could tell you the last thing I’d be described as is a lemming or bloodthirsty or fascist. I am perhaps slightly paranoid, but don’t act on paranoid fantasies intellectually. Israelis are certainly paranoid because they have excellent reasons to be, and some of the worst of their political and military leaders play to that paranoia instead of seeking ways to bring about a reality that could change the basic situation presently seem determined to make it worse by hurting the Palestinians and their interests. No one who supports Israel can condone their behavior, and I don’t. Lieberman now finds himself in some corruption scandal and if we are all very lucky he will be indicted and resign.

I don’t hate Arabs. I think their basic culture is stuck in feudalism partly because of religious intrusion on people’s private and political decisions but perhaps mostly because their small elite leadership classes want to keep it that way. Oddly enough, many primarily secular Arab scholars agree with that assessment. 

My husband suggests that perhaps I threaten part of a constructed universe you need to continue believing, as you do, in 100% villains and 100% heros. My villains and heros have shades of grey and sometimes feet of clay instead of the ivory pedestal on which you have erected a perfect utopian belief in some completely innocent exotic Arabic dream palace where all would be well if Israel simply vanished. Dream on, if you must, but please leave me out of it.

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By Folktruther, August 4, 2009 at 12:30 am Link to this comment

Your admiration for Sharon, Sepharad, is based on your both being bloodthirsty fascists, you expressing your ziofascism in moderate, articulate and intelligent tones.  The same tones that the German bougeous women stated that it was necessary to desecrate Jewish cementaries.  The same tones that Obama uses to continue Bushite policies.

All your heroes favor ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, the starvation blockade of Gaza, and war against Muslim countries.  Policies that will lead to the destruction of Israel within a few decades. 

As world power shifts from the West to Asia, and Western and American imperialism decay, Isarel, who has attached its policy to violence and war, under the guise of Defense, will decay with it.

Ziofascists like yourself are destroying Israel as a country, identifying with violence with a maniacal intensity.  You lack any sense of reality or proportion, and lead ignorant zionist lemmings, like Inherit, toward the cliff of history.

And you, and Aipac, and the whole ziofascist pack, attack anyone who advocates a realistic historical solution.  You think a state can be based in modern times, when national power is expressed increasingly in economic terms, on the tripod of military, intelligence and police agencies.  and you rely on the historical fear of the Jewish people of anialiation to lead them to historical disaster.

Your idea of political strength is a disgusting butcher like Sharon, currently a zombie dreaming his death loving dreams.  The same dreams you dream when awake.

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By Sepharad, August 3, 2009 at 11:33 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, I don’t like Fatah that much—they’re better than Hamas but I don’t think the Palestinians have ever had the leaders they deserved and need. The basis for any kind of democratic organization doesn’t exist in nomadic culture, concentric circles with family in the center, then clan, then tribe, then sheikh and then caliph. There wasn’t time for a transition between WWI (when nomadic culture in Arabia came under modern petroleum-seeking colonial systems almost completely) and the present. It took a long time for European feudal structures to evolve into the modern republic or democracy; can’t expect such major transitions in the space of just one century. Egypt and Iran are different.

My admiration for Sharon is based on his attempts to keep the religious from coopting the entire society and also his pragmatism, he never allowed to be overrun by his ego. (And Lebanon was, and is, a much more complicated country whose factions and politics are far more byzantine than you imply. I’m sure you know it.) You want the settlers out of the West Bank, and if he were still around they would be gone by now, even if it took a civil war. Not because, as father of the settler movement in the first place he wanted it, but because he saw that it was necessary to separate completely if Israel was to remain a Jewish-majority state. Tzipi Livni was a disciple of his, also pragmatic, also wants the settlers out, also believes the status of Jerusalem should be negotiated with the Palestinians so they would have East Jerusalem as their state’s capital. If you want to name my heros accurately, you have to include Livni, Rabin and Amos Oz.

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By Sepharad, August 3, 2009 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

Sectarianism is the worst enemy Islam has, no matter how hard anyone tries to spin it. Extreme versions of extremism such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Salafist, Wahabbism, you name it, are what might cause a Middle East conflagration, and it will be Moslem on Moslem. Israel is not a player in the overall problem.

Fatah has been corrupt in the past, but that was so devastating to the Palestinians that Abu Mazen may have had the wisdom to clean up their act. I don’t know. Hamas is not ineffective: they very efficiently massacre and exclude Fatah supporters in Gaza. Their corruption is of a different nature than Fatah’s: Hamas women don’t live in expensive Paris apartments on money intended for the Palestinian people, but some of the food aid they’ve received during Israel’s blockade has been doled out to their supporters and not the general population.

Israel is not nearly as bad as Folktruther and like-minded believe, and it is not nearly as good as it should be, as good as I and its other supporters want it to be. Removing Palestinian families from East Jerusalem who have lived there for 50 years, even if not as legal owners, and moving Jewish settlers in, is as wrong as it is possible to be. The US has condemned it, as we should.

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By Folktruther, August 3, 2009 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

And this was done, Beerdoctor, while Obama pretends to oppose increasing settlements.

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By thebeerdoctor, August 3, 2009 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

from The Associated Press:
“Palestinians evicted, Israelis move in
Jerusalem—Israeli police evicted two Palestinian families in east Jerusalem on Sunday, then allowed Jewish settlers to move into their homes, drawing criticism from Palestinians, the United Nations and the State Department.
    Police arrived before dawn and cordoned off part of the Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah before forcibly removing more than 50 people, said Chris Gunness, spokesman for the in charge of Palestinian refugees.
    U.N. staff later saw vehicles bringing Jewish settlers to move into the homes, he said.
    Israeli police cited a ruling by the country’s Supreme Court that the houses belonged to Jews and that the Arab families had been living there illegally.
    Gunness said the families had lived in the homes for more than 50 years.”
Monday, August 3, 2009

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By Russian Paul, August 3, 2009 at 3:52 am Link to this comment

Jason, you psychopath, I and many others here who are critical of Israel’s murderous policies have Jewish heritages ourselves. But of course you are aware of this; your sleazy accusation of anti-semitism is really the oldest trick in the book, is that all you can come up with?

As far as terrorism goes, from the original horrific ethnic cleansing they commited in 1948 to the recent unreasonably violent attack on Gaza, Israel’s modus operandi has been to target and terrorize as many innocent civilians as they can logistically/politically get away with. If you make an honest comparison between innocent civilians killed by the state of Israel and the amount killed by Hamas, and you follow the “textbook definition” of terrorist it seems that Israel takes the cake.

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By Craig Sipple, August 3, 2009 at 2:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

to the site owner

Mosiac is an Israeli media organisation.  You have posted drivel from them in the past as well.

You are hurting your reputation guys.  I know I am not the first to tell you this.

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By Jason!!, August 2, 2009 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

“If Hamas is ineffective, it’s because they’re automatically labeled as terrorists and restricted from any meaningful negotiations.”

the terrorist label the carry is well deserved.

The only “bunch of bullshit” is your faux ignorance and accpetance of innocent civilians being converted into homicide bombers that kill and maim more innocent civilians. Text book terrorism.

you fail to condemn for your own dispise of the jew. <bold> that makes you culpable. </bold>

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By Folktruther, August 2, 2009 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

Israel has always fostered an Arab faction that it uses to kill, terrorize and intimindate the Arab population.  the former client group was the Lebanon Falange, that slaughtered the men, women and children of the Beirut suburbs while sharon’s Israeli military surrounded them and prevented the victims from leaving.  Fatah, now funded by the US, serves the same purpose.  Sepharad, in particular likes them, as she does her political hero Sharon.

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By diamond, August 2, 2009 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Fatah lost the election because as a party it was corrupt and ineffective. Normally this would mean they were no longer the government. Certainly according to all the known principles of democracy they are not the governing body speaking for the Palestinians. America’s response to this was to fund and encourage a coup against Hamas by Fatah. Fatah lost there too and are now in the West Bank still licking their wounds.

Monty Python could not have written a better farce. America has a bad habit of only supporting the result of an election if it serves what they perceive (usually wrongly) as America’s interests, either political or economic. The fact that this is not their job, unless someone took a vote and made them the ruler of all the nations of the world, which would make America a global empire, seems to have no meaning for the CIA, the ultra right and their client states such as Israel. Israel’s response was to say that anything could now be done to the Palestinians (and was in Gaza when Israel invaded it) because they had ‘voted for terrorists’. Following that logic Israel should not complain if their enemies decide anything can be done to them, since they have also voted for terrorists such as Netanyahu and Liebermann. America’s continued negotiations with Fatah and refusal to negotiate with Hamas can only be seen by the Palestinians as a gesture of contempt and an example of the double speak and corruption they have come to expect from both Fatah and Fatah’s current Israeli and American masters. America’s meddling and deceit will eventually lead to civil war and massacres- and not for the first time. And if this is how America wants to ‘model’ democratic behaviour to the Muslims then I can predict it will fail, as it has failed in Iraq and Afghanistan. America’s motto is always ‘Do as I say,  not as I do’ and as every parent knows that doesn’t work.

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By thebeerdoctor, August 2, 2009 at 3:25 am Link to this comment

As an ignorant American I know nothing about the insane machinations for power in the Middle East. But I have talked to people originally from Lebanon who told me that the rise of Hamas politically was due mainly to the corruption of the Fatah leadership.

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By Russian Paul, August 1, 2009 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment

Fatah is beyond corrupt, they are illegally clinging to power that they don’t have. If Hamas is ineffective, it’s because they’re automatically labeled as terrorists and restricted from any meaningful negotiations. What a bunch of bullshit.

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