Fadel, Ron Suskin’s “The Way of the World” has principally been discussed in the media for its revelations of how Cheney’s office (1) ignored hard evidence by way of back channel contacts with Saddam’s chief intelligence officer, Talil Habbush, that there were no WMD, (2) after the invasion, got Habbush to write out a fraudulent letter which purported to link Saddam to Mohammed Attah and to shipments of yellow cake uranium from Niger, (3) rebuffed offers of cooperation from the Iranians made shortly after the U.S. invaded Iraq which would have resulted in a joint effort to capture any al Qaeda cells operation in Iraq and end its nuclear program.

But the real story lies in Suskind’s remarkable effort to reach across cultural lines—telling the stories of peoples from Muslim and Christian backgrounds, making us better understand both.  If you haven’t read it, I would encourage you to do so.  Love to hear your thoughts after doing so.

Fadel and Sodium:

Thank you for your kind words.  As many people here know, I am a Christian minister, but, like Sodium, a person who has read and studied the Old Testament and the Qur’an (though admittedly not in its original language), as well as the underlying texts of many other faiths.

Thus, it bothers me when ANY faith is denigrated (directly or indirectly) by broad-brush generalizing or any other way.  All three Abrahamic faiths have had their good and bad moments, but what Sodium says is nonetheless true: were the people (and particularly the leaders) of all three faiths to “live up to” the truest, most loving, humble and forgiving tenets of their faiths, this world would indeed by a better place for ALL, as “poverty, hunger, homelessness, diseases, violence and wars will be reduced.”

Peace.  Shalom.  Assalamu alaikum.

Fadel writes before I could

“Second, your recommending Bernard Lewis’s book further expose your true colors and your propaghanda sources, for Lewis is a recognized Zionist enemy of Islam who has been making a living out of propagating against Islam.”

~~~~~~

Even *I* knew this, and that’s only from a very cursory sub-study of the History of the Middle East.

Why would anybody actually read/trust ANYTHING that Bernard Lewis writes or says about ANYTHING, and specifically Islam?

By Beachbum, September 6 at 11:27 pm #

Might I suggest for further reading, “The Crisis of Islam” by Bernard Lewis.
=======================
Beachbum, I really resent your stupid and bigoted ignorant comment on Islam on two grounds: First, the thread was not about Islam so your forcing a comment like that on the thread shows your true colors. Second, your recommending Bernard Lewis’s book further expose your true colors and your propaghanda sources, for Lewis is a recognized Zionist enemy of Islam who has been making a living out of propagating against Islam. For my Masters’ degree thesis, over twenty years ago, I devoted most of it to refute the dubious sources of his writings along with his shabby scholarship. Further, for you knowledge, evil Lewis was in bed with evil Bush advising and encouraging him in the war on Iraq. He was one of the axis of evil bunch who were the architects of the Iraqi war.

By Maani, September 7 at 7:48 am #

Your enlightened response to bigoted Beacbum is really appreciated, thank you!

Beachbum:

“The peoples of Islam don’t segregate by nation then by religion, but are Muslims first and some would say only.”

What an outrageously broad-brush statement!  There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world.  The vast majority practice their faith privately, peacefully and neither participate in nor condone violence in the name of their faith.

Just as the “Christian Right” (which, like the Moral Majority before it, is neither…) does not represent the entirety of Christendom, the radical fundamentalist mullahs, imams and others do not represent the entirety of Islam.

I identify myself as a Christian first and an American second.  (Actually, as a human being first, a Christian second and an American third.)  But that does not mean that I support some of the narrow-minded, unloving, unforgiving and often un-Christian views of the extremists in my faith (whether here or elsewhere), much less that I am somehow “anti-American.”

You might want to be more careful about generalizing.

Peace.

This is all a chess game of life and death. Regardless of what was signed, when, or whatever. I am not saying that someone should attack now, but that the US should never let its guard down, ever.

The peoples of Islam don’t segregate by nation then by religion, but are Muslims first and some would say only. Fundamentalists (Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Qa’ida and others) really do not care if anyone is left so long as the ones that are left are Muslim. And besides that, it was Khomeini who coined the phrase, “The Great Satan” in reference to the US. Also, bin Laden has a bone to pick and an ego as well.
Might I suggest for further reading, “The Crisis of Islam” by Bernard Lewis

Fahrenheit 451 thank you for seeing humor I also did something about Rev. Wrights sermons on obama’s wall, you would of thought I impregnated a liberal. My wife is a lib. she voted for Bill,as did her sisters and her Dad.But living here in Illinois, and seeing Obs mentors and friends they have come around. Don’t use google, use fact check or something that is not in the tank for Obama and check out his associates. Todd Stroger, Mayor Daley, and his mentor and Emil man with the Big Nuts Jones, and don’t forget Blago, worst Gov. in IL. history. Below is what I found on the net. This is what OB has become…....

My fellow Americans:

As your future President I want to thank my supporters, for your mindless support of me, despite my complete lack of any legislative achievement, my pastor’s relations with Louis Farrakhan and Libyan dictator Moamar Quadafi, or my blatantly leftist voting record while I present myself as some sort of bi-partisan agent of change.

I also like how my supporters claim my youthful drug use and criminal behavior somehow qualifies me for the Presidency after 8 years of claiming Bush’s youthful drinking disqualifies him. Your hypocrisy is a beacon of hope shining over a sea of political posing.

I would also like to thank the Kennedy’s for coming out in support of me. There’s a lot of glamour behind the Kennedy name, even though Robert illegally wiretapped Martin Luther King, Jr. and Teddy killed a female employee with whom he was having an extra marital affair and who was pregnant with his child. And I’m not going anywhere near the cousins, both literally and figuratively. And I’d like to thank Oprah Winfrey for her support. Her love of meaningless empty platitudes will be the force that propels me to the White House.

I have visited all 57 states and have seen all you Whitey’s screaming for me because you know I am the chosen one..
My brother George says he lives in poverty, lives on less than $1.00 per month, now that is being conservative and spending wisely

Americans should vote for me, not because of my lack of experience or achievement , but because I make people feel good. Voting for me causes some white folk to feel relieved of their imagined, racist guilt. I say things that sound meaningful, but don’t really mean anything because Americans are tired of things having meaning. If things have meaning, then that means you have to think about them.
Americans are tired of thinking. It’s time to shut down the brain, and open up the heart. So when you go to vote, remember don’t think, just do. And do it for me.

Joe Bidin binladin will give me on the job training .. Don’t worry about my lack of intelligence or knowledge to lead, I KNOW HOW TO RAISE TAXES..
Bill Ayers will be my bodyguard
Tony Rekso will be my finacial advisor
Larry Sinclair will be my personal companion and mentor.

Reverend Wright will be my religious mentor teaching me more hatred of America and all you rich white folks
I know you are typical white folks
BUT
All you dumb Americans keep your tires inflated

Thank You.
Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.

Phil Donahue cleaned OReilly’s clock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctlmholr45cil

The war in Iraq, the surge, our continuing presence in Afghanistan and our persistant war on anyone who doesn’t agree with US or Israel is truely pathetic which we need to correct Nov 4.

Get rid of the encumbents.

By Fadel Abdallah, September 5 at 8:15 pm #

I think Obama made a big mistake in agreeing to sit down and argue with this big-mouthed demagogue.

_________________________________________________

To an extent I agree, Fadel, but there are pluses and minuses coming from the encounter with the guy Keith Olbermann aptly describes as “Billo the Clown” from the “Fixed Noise Network.”  On the plus side, Obama displayed his willingness to go into the lion’s den.  When he could get a word in edgewise with this bag of wind, Obama displayed a calm intellect and grace under hostile questioning.  For the intellectually challenged regular viewers of the Fox Propaganda Network, Obama’s appearance at least gives rise to a possibility to pierce the thick disinformation bubble that surrounds their brainwashed minds.

On the negative side, the interview provided Billo the Clown with the opportunity to pretend he is actually a journalist while touting the Fixed Noise propaganda.

@ RightWing,

While I find your Volkswagen analogy funny; Obama is not an idiot; we’ll see whose laughing in January.

All Obama had to do was say no to The O man. But the EGO got the best of him. He said he would only do the interview if O was easy on him, you know , just questions that he prepped for. The only thing bigger than Obama’s ego, are those ears, He looks like a Volkswagen with the doors open.

By Fadel Abdallah, September 5 at 8:15 pm #

I think Obama made a big mistake in agreeing to sit down and argue with this big-mouthed demagogue. It is my feeling that the ever evil O’Reilly pursued this interview to set up Obama for a big trap which might come up in the subsequent parts of this interview. Obama does not stand to make any advantageous point with the viewers of such odious personality. However, O’Reilly stands to further pop up his sickly ego!
~~~~~

Fadel, it is a sort of meeting of the minds possibly, because the same thought passed very briefly through my own mind at the very, very beginning of the interview. I mean, I would have excepted, (like you) that there clearly was no advantage to Obama to participate in such an ‘event’ with Bill O’Reilly of all people, (hard to imagine worse until one actually DOES encounter worse). But *then*…as I listened and watched the interplay, I knew exactly what was going on….(or at least this is how I perceived it, based on the ‘history’)

The ‘history’ is that Obama swore off of Fox just before, or maybe just after the start of the campaigns, making it crystal clear that he wasn’t going to give them (the O’Reilley’s of the pundit critters) any air time. He said early on…NO FOX NEWS for him. However, that didn’t deter O’Reilly, who’s hounded Obama for months; showing up in various places where Obama has campaigned, and making the standard nuisance of himself trying to force Obama into some spontaneous conversation. One that he could frame/twist/spin the blowhard way. At any rate, at some point in time, (I’m not sure when or under what circumstances) Obama *agreed* to do this interview with him, WHEN the time was convenient. (Meaning for Obama, not O’Reilly)

So, I think this is finally the time, and Obama’s just doing it for the simple reason that he said he would. Sounds a little hooky I know, for it to be a matter of just keeping one’s word, and of course the Obama haters are going to jump right in on that. But, I honestly do believe that it really is that simple. He agreed to do it, so he was keeping his word. Nothing more or less than that really.

*However*, now that I’ve seen this first segment, I’m not so sure that Obama didn’t turn this into his advantage, which he has a habit of doing. These demagogues all share the same major flaw in that they buy into their own shit. So they just ‘assume’ a whole lot of stuff about a whole lot of things, and they’re usually WRONG! So, Obama stayed his cool, calm, and rational self, but by all means standing his ground, and firmly, and not giving an inch to the blowhard, and doing it without to be disingenuous, or coy, or less than totally honest. Now of course that isn’t going to mean a thing to at least a portion of the standard Bill O’Reilly crowd. But I think it *will* at least have many other folks across the heartland and beyond, a chance to re-think some of their own assumptions. (and some actually do).

So in the end, this could actually turn out to be advantageous from Obama in a way that we might not generally expect, just because we know what these types are capable of, and that too low is never too low for them to go in the swamp. Still, if the O’Reilly types go toooo far, they lose the edge with those who are even 25% conscious.

@ Beachbum, September 5 at 5:14 pm

Iran signs NPT additional protocol
IRNA
Vienna, Dec 18, IRNA—Iran signed the additional protocol to the
nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) here on Thursday, thus
allowing snap inspection of its nuclear facilities by the IAEA
experts.
The protocol was signed by Iran`s outgoing representative to the
International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Ali-Akbar Salehi in a
ceremony attended by IAEA Chief Mohamed ElBaradei.
The Islamic republic has been accused by the US of attempting
to develop nuclear weapons - a claim strongly denied by the Islamic
Republic.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2003/iran-031218-irna02.htm

I think Obama made a big mistake in agreeing to sit down and argue with this big-mouthed demagogue. It is my feeling that the ever evil O’Reilly pursued this interview to set up Obama for a big trap which might come up in the subsequent parts of this interview. Obama does not stand to make any advantageous point with the viewers of such odious personality. However, O’Reilly stands to further pop up his sickly ego!

I have found that many people that comment on the threads that I visit, have the most astonishing ability to pick the most ironically appropriate monikers. To be followed by completely predictable comments, displaying with erudite accuracy, their view on a particular topic. Which makes me proud to be an American, and illustrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Obama doesn’t prevail in this election we are all in a world of hurt.

The right-wing’s motives are all wrong, the Abrahamic religions are the problem, but much more so when used to mask fiscal and fascist goals. I can only hasten to urge anyone who thinks they can arrogate their pejoratives in ten words or less, and might not be as well read as they could be - to remedy the problem.

Fact check Obama ,just like TruthDig did to Palin,I know it will all be lies if it;s about Obama….

Obama is still an IDIOT

Just a couple of quick points here, first, Iran really does want nuclear weapons, who wouldn’t…? Second, neither Khomeini nor Ahmadinejad signed this NPT in 1968, and I trust we all know the importance of that as far as Muslims are concerned, in the light of the fact that the Qur’an orders all Muslims to kill all infidels wherever they find them. Ah, maybe the point is Islamic proliferation… Remember that Muslims have been attacking American interests sense well before the time of Thomas Jefferson - in the name of Allah.

The so-called surge actually made the situation worse in Iraq by aiding ethnic cleansing.  If things were better refugees would be returning, not fleeing.

Gmonst,

I too was shocked that O’Rielly actually admitted to the fact that Iraq was a ‘mistake’. But, you point out here, (as have others) the cruelest of ironies in the claims of “violence being down.” DOWN FROM WHAT????

That’s what kills me every time these blowhards come up with the whole ‘surge’ argument. They’re saying that the violence that WE created by the invasion and occupation of the country is down??? How often do we see the Iraq before the destruction compared to the Iraq that the US has destroyed? Well, never really. We don’t see the population of the ‘before’ Iraq, engaging in the standard activities of daily life, compared with the ‘now’ Iraq, when they’ve been confined to walled enclaves, and there are no schools open, but several orphanages finally being established, which don’t come close to addressing the needs of that now broken nation.

Success my ass.

Meantime, I disagree with Obama only on a few specifics, beginning with the amount of money that Musharraf received from US to supposedly fight or at least contain the so-called terrorists. Obama says $10 Billion, but I’ve read $22 Billion. Where is it?

Then there’s my other beef with Obama, probably the major one, and that’s the notion that Iran is a ‘threat’. I wish he would qualify that to include that Iran is only a ‘threat’ to the extent that they are threatened! This whole notion of Iran not being allowed to acquire a nuclear weapon just feeds the demonizing when we know that the goal of the NPT is to prevent ANY non-nuclear state from acquiring nuclear WEAPONS, as well as to ELIMINATE their existence from the states that already DO have them. Furthermore, this line of discourse ignores the fact that to date, neither the IAEA or the US or any other agency has found any proof or indication that Iran is even attempting to acquire a nuclear weapon.

Obama has admitted before that we DON’T KNOW what Iran’s intentions are until we talk to them. But until that happens, why would he or anyone disregard the extremely comprehensive work that the IAEA has done in this regard, since it IS there responsibility to maintain these on-going inspections, and to monitor that Iran (or any other nation state) is in full compliance with the terms of the NPT? Obama needs to bring that into the discourse.

Oh the other hand, I agree with Maani 100% (because I had the very same reaction when I heard it from Obama) and that is this…

•  “…Actually, Obama’s best come-back - indeed, his best and most overall appropriate line - was “Everything is hypothetical.” That says it.  That is what a president works with - until something actually happens: hypotheticals.

You’re right Maani, this says it all, and it is the only SAFE view from which to operate.

Wood:

While you are correct overall (and you forgot CFR and TC on your list), there are nevertheless “gradations” of change that can and do occur.  For example, it would be disingenuous to suggest that had Gore taken office in 2000, we would not be in Iraq (despite 9/11) and we would have been working on climate change for the past 8 years.  And those are just TWO things; we would also likely be closer to universal health care, and have at least a basically sound economy.

Similarly, while all politicians are, as you suggest, “controlled” to varying degrees by the “world elitists,” it would be equally disingenuous to suggest that we would not see more substantial “change” (for the better) under Obama than we would under McCain.

Even if it is only a matter of “degree,” the old adage of “the lesser of two evils” still holds even in the face of the “world elitists.”

Peace.

O’Reilly and Obama…More corporate owned media spin.
Nauseum at best. Look folks, all these players in the media and in politics all work for the same bosses… the worlds elitists who control everything.
Fact is the industrial military war machine and the worlds multi national corporations make money for the same people who are members of the Bilderberg Group, the Illuminati,and the Carlyle Group.

Do your self a favor and check out ( to start ) these two sites: http://www.infowars.com and
http://www.educate-yourself.org  Then follow the links. You just might find the real truth about your future very refreshing. By the way…in case you didn’t know the United States Federal Reserve is a ” private corporation ” and has nothing to do with being a branch of the U.S Federal Government. These very rich individuals who own the Federal Reserve have some 56 Trillion dollars to invest in wars, by influence, control mis-information, and make the real decisions in world politics. Not the O’Bama’s or the McCain’s in this world. Just follow the money.

Time To Wake Up.

Wood

I was shocked that O’reilly conceded that the Iraq war was a mistake.  However, as others have mentioned he doesn’t seem to understand the many factors which have lowered the violence there.  Further than that, lowered violence five years after dismanteling the country into chaos does not a success make.  It was a disastrous decision to start the war, we and the Iraqis continue to reap the negative consequences.  No shine job can erase the tragic blunder.  We shouldn’t have gone there, and because it was wrong from the start any small rights are only part of a bigger wrong.  We still need to get out and let the Iraqis have their country back.  Obama was cool and thoughtful like always.  Just the candidate we need in these tumultuous times.

Actually, Obama’s best come-back - indeed, his best and most overall appropriate line - was “Everything is hypothetical.”  That says it.  That is what a president works with - until something actually happens: hypotheticals.  And as ITW puts it so perfectly, “When that 3am phone call comes, I don’t want a guy who explodes, loses his temper, or a nut-job religious fanatic who believes God is on her side and wants us to make war.  I want a guy who says ‘What do we know, when did we know it, and how good is the information?’ Then, acts coolly, but decisively.”

Peace.

BillO You are a Mere Cardboard Cut out anchor, who can only outwit and Bully Starlets.
You Are Out of Your League.
Was that Your Scripted Talking Point Questions Rove made Up ?
I May have to force myself to watch the next few Installments of ‘As BillO World Turns” Just for Laughs
Man he is Crafty though, cutting off the answers when they show his ignorance.Who Would ever notice that Obvious ‘Losing the Debate’ tactic?Chapter One stuff in the ‘Rovian’ Handbook ( undue credit for Political Deceipt)
Bill “You Ignorant Slut!”
See if ET has an Opening for a Roving Hollywood Beat Reporter. Have Some Self Respect, You’re embarassing Yourself!

O’Reilly didn’t lay a glove on him!  Obama was firm, polite, decisive, and able to handle EVERY curve O’Reilly threw at him, well, presidentially!

I’m amazed Fox is airing it.  Wonder what they are chopping and pasting to try to make Obama look bad next week.

The fact that Obama would go into the cheating lion’s den and emerged unscathed just goes to show how well this man handles adversity, prepares himself, and thinks on his feet. 

When that 3am phone call comes, I don’t want a guy who explodes, loses his temper, or a nut-job religious fanatic who believes God is on her side and wants us to make war.  I want a guy who says “What do we know, when did we know it, and how good is the information?”  Then, acts coolly, but decisively.

We’ve had 8 years of a coward who freezes like a deer in the headlights, then postures like a warrior after the crisis is over.  Now we have a choice of a proven hot-head or a proven calm, decisive thinker who will do what’s best for our nation.

“The majority lives in the perpetual practice of self-applause; and there are certain truths which the Americans can only learn from strangers or experience.”
Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

Obama holds his own quite well against an “interviewer” who has his own agenda.

Drivel!