They want to preserve human ignorance, weakness and gullibility.  Those are the infinite resources.

how strange it is that I’ve never met you guys and yet I address you by a use rname--showing my age there!! But, very cool, too! cyrena--I sure do remember Funkadelic!! HA! Thats unreal! How old were you? I’d have freaked! (I missed that one) Ohio Players (remember them??) are playing this wknd.--I’d love to see them, its a charity concert too--I coudl prob get in for free--but a dear friends’ family problems (out of state, as usual--I’m about the only one of my “clan” that is still stuck in Ohio--sis’ in NYC and DC/Va.--had gotten out, but came back to “heal up"--never did!!). I HAVE to go with this guy--bless his heart. An elderly relative commited suicide with percocet and morphine--she had been in a lot of pain, and , in Ohio, you cannot get into a hospice on just Medicaid or Mediczre--maybe its really a MURDER! BUT! The capitalism is the problem, as so many are saying.Its hard to imagine it changing, but a small group of people can change the world (Never doubt it)--only thing that ever has....things HAVE to get better. Sorry, a little weepy today. Bye and PEACE!

Democracy exists momentarily in small setting where no one can get a permanent advantage so they can steal and lord it over everyone else.  Our Republic is flim flam designed by crooks so that each group has its own territory (state) in which various rackets and cons can be done independently.

By KDelphi, August 29 at 7:30 am

KDelphi,

Thanks so much for the great post. I’m going to respond more later, when there’s a little bit more time. But I was delighted to know where you are, (I think as you had mentioned that you were in Ohio before, but I didn’t know where until now.

I know Dayton well, though it’s been years since I’ve been back. My mother (and her exceedingly large family - 13 kids - way too many) are from Piqua, so I’m sure you know it. One day I’ll have to tell you about my very first trip to Dayton, when we’d gone back to Piqua for a family reunion. (my mother has been here in California since she was 15, so my sister and I were like 4 and 9 years old the first time we visited Ohio). But I well remember what was probably my 2nd or 3rd trip to Dayton, when we’d begged and pleaded with my cousin to take us to a concert there. I’ll never forget it. We just really wanted to see the Funkadelic, (remember them?) and so he finally gave it, but gave us this really strict waring, that if anything ‘went down’ we were to head for the nearest exit, immediately!

I thought to myself, well good Lord, what could ‘go down’? We got there, enjoyed the show, and then in like the next to the last act/song, they (funkadelic being just a tad bit raunchy) threw up their costumes...these robe type hooded affairs, over their heads, and none of them had a stitch of clothing on underneath. I was spellbound, and then heard some movement at the table behind us. I didn’t know what the hell was going on, so I thought something was ‘going down’, and headed my ass out of there. When my cousin found me later, (loitering at the door to watch the rest of the show, and whatever the ‘action’ might have been) he asked me what the deal was, and why I was hanging around at the door. I told him I thought I’d heard something starting to ‘go down’, so I headed out. (I’m no fool, and I follow directions when my safety might be compromised). He just laughed at me, because apparently, (unbeknownst to me) while I was so ‘awed’ by these guys standing there buck naked, one of them had left the stage and was approaching our table from behind. The dude had bumped into the thing, (the table) and rattled it or whatever, which was why I hightailed it out of there so fast. The rest of them teased me mercilessly about that for days afterward.

Anyway, I’ve just been able to catch up with most of the rest of the Convention, since I’ve watched all but Obama’s speech ‘after the fact’ thanks to this modern techology.

And, all I can say is, I sure would have liked to have been there. Now all politics aside, that was one hell of a jammin’ convention!! I mean, whatever you think about the really serious stuff, how could anybody NOT enjoy it? These folks were JAMMIN’!! I’ve been to a few conventions in my life, but this had to have been the best. From Jennifer Hudson kicking it off, (she was great, but of course I’m still partial to my main squeeze..Marvin Gaye..nobody’s ever done it like he did it) to will.i.am, (love that tune..had to watch/listen a few times) to Stevie the man..I was outside on the porch watering plants when he kicked in with Signed, Sealed, Delivered, and I had to drop the hose and rush in here to start it over. Nearly tripped over the damn thing.

Oou wee...I loved it! Can you imagine a repug convention like that? No way!!! An impossibility! I even saw an old white dude there in the back ground, kicking it up. (well sorta).

Now how can you watch such a class presentation, and stay mad at the dems?

Watch it again, you can go back to being mad at ‘em tomorrow. I think I’ll listen to Stevie again.

Candidates are not picked by the public.  Candidates carefully groom and pick suckers to help them run a larger con on the public.  Every aspect of a campaign is carefully fashioned sucker bait.  In a two party scam, Republicans appeal to one set of weakneses, while Democrats appeal to another set of weaknesses.  Republicans are crooks who would like to see the crookism racket going forever.  Democrats are suckers who think that crookism is Capitalism (Capitalism depends upon artificial and forced equality in as many things as possible so that no one steals so much that they can jack the system.).  It is the sucker aspects of Democrats that feed Republican power.  Democrats think the main purpose of life is to be a good slave and survive, while accumulating a little more crap.  Republicans hope to continue to get their kicks by using their wealth and a lot of lies to keep Democrats to heal.  The slaves don’t have much hope.  They have been suckered to many times by the rest.

It’s hard to believe that Naomi Klein could be so naive.  The idea that Obama, having weathered some 30 primaries without listening to any of the concerns of ordinary citizens, will upon being elected tailor his policies according to those concerns, is laughable.  The message of the convention is clear.  It says to ordinary, working Americans, “You do not exist.  We are so unconcerned with the issues facing you that you do not exist.  Your job is to be cheerleaders for the team.  Beyond voting, and cheering the team on, you have nothing to do with government.” If the pressure of 30 primaries is not enough to get him to listen to us, how is pressure from various interest groups going to have any affect once he is elected.

cyrena and outraged (the same person)--JUST KIDDING!I think I have been so deluged with anger (by frieds, family as wele as strangers) about not being “on board” enough for Obama, that I was reacting to your posts with my reptilian brain! Anyone who is not supportive of he or McSame is under deluge these days, believe me. I thought you were an academic--my sister is (SUNY/Purchase)and she had been sending me long emails about the same issue for about 2 mos.--then, she said, “I’m not doin g this anymore because then you’l say that I think the sexism was OK, and that Obama is perfect, adn I dont at all”. I love her more than any person in the world--we just disagree on this one. McCain is HERE (MY city! aauugh!)and I really am terrified of another neo-con presidency.It sounds like The Shock Dcotrine, and it is. Naomi Klein never ceases to open my eyes. Id thought that Katrina, etc. was just that Bush was/is sociopathic, but that still didnt explain how all thosein the adminsitratio could have screwed up so badly. I hadnt comtemplated that it was , while maybe not INTENTIONAL )they arent that creative), what occurred afterwards was seen as an “opportunity” by them, as many GOP have said since, including Bobby Jindal, the new “mayor”. To people sleeping in tents under a bridge--I doubt tha they see it that way, or FEMA death trailers.THAT was the day (call me naive) that I realized that *THEY* would do anything---anythign for $$. YOu know, you think,, “well even THEY wouldnt do THAT”! Well-yep they did. The rage grew, and, as the 8 yrs became worse and, I just seethe al the time. The “divide and rule” stuff holds--I wrote a letter to a daily in January that I was afraid that the GOP was out of options, that they weould do the ultimate Third World Builder and divide “poor whites and blacks” and that has happened. I thought I sensed their desperation!  I stated in the letter why I supported Kucincih and Hillary (health care, I thought), and Dayton not being a bastion of free speech--I GIT NAILED! SLAMMED! And, I guess, Ive been defenseive since. It is hard to argue with an unsigned letter or phone call.That being said, for reasons stated (8 yrs), I have been so enraged at the Dem Congress, that Nader seems like the lamenters choice. I’ve always loved him (most liberals do--they just think he messes up elections).  I beleive that--the word Revolution has been so cheapened that I’m sure most Americans think of it as a joke. (as in “American Revolution") But, there is ALREADY blood in the streets, thanks to America’s ridculous “affection” for capitalism adn corporate “culture” (A young soldier said “We’re fighting so she can go to McDonald without gettin blown up!” !! How naively accurate!) “People” are “convinced” atha its “bush’s capitalism” or “‘communism’ like RED China or the Soviet Union”. I dont think that theyre al stupid--they just dont know any better. (Free public universities for all! Well, not sure it did me that much good! I still cant compose a decent sentence!)The socialist democracies of EU , Canada ?, etc. would beg do differ. Their standard of living is the highest in the world there and I think that would be the direction we should go. There is a SP-USA candidate, but not on the ballot in Ohio. But I still think that, if Nader was in on the debates (or McKinney), it might “pull” Obama to the left and make him more palatable for older liberals. But, my sister in Virginia,said she “almost got booted out of her cancer support group” for supporting Nader! I’m sure you wil agree taht there is no cal for that, and that you would not do that yourself. Youre right--people are stressed. And terrified.It does make violence, if necessary, seem more palatable. Sometimes I just jump out of fear, and anger--but I STILL thin Nader/Kucinich/ woudl be best!

1

Hi Laura and thanks so much for the message. You as well KDelphi. I don’t think, (or at least I certainly hope not) that Outraged will believe me to be ‘confrontational’ in my response. We’ve been chatting back and forth for a long time now, and we generally see the fundamentals pretty much the same way. She becomes annoyed with me from time to time, and it’s usually because of a perception resulting from something that I’ve failed to properly articulate. In this case, it would have certainly ‘seemed’ or ‘read’ like I was criticizing her specifically, in reference to the suggestion of ‘alternatives’ to the Dems or Repugs, when in fact I wasn’t referring to her specifically, but didn’t want to start a bunch of shit by listing specific names of those who I WAS referring to.

We’ve had several months now of “Obama backlash” and while some of it seems perfectly legitimate, and I can at least understand it, even if I don’t agree with the longer view of it, I can also detect the difference between a genuine concern, and those who have been involved in divisive trolling for months. Since I already KNOW that Outraged is definitely NOT one of them, I just assumed she would know that, but I should have been clearer in the first message.

Outraged also becomes outraged at things that I don’t always become outraged (or AS outraged) about as she does. Suffice to say that I’m not as ideologically pure, but it took me a long time, and a lot of seriously hard knocks to get to that. Now I’m less inclined to sweat the stuff that I believe to be ‘lesser evils’ or things that will in fact resolve on their own. That too, I’ve discovered the hard way.

Still, I suspect that we are ALL (and I’ve said this before) to some degree more confrontational, or ‘reactive’ than we might normally be, and I say this of American society in general terms. In part of my own work, I’ve developed a sort of working hypothesis that we are, as a population, (to a greater or lesser degree) totally stressed out, whether we consciously realize it or not. I don’t normally engage in psychobabble, but the truth is that we have been terrorized for nearly 8 years. That takes its toll on a population, albeit in different forms. And while I was able to observe the ‘effects’ as far back as 2000, it’s taken me until just a few years ago, to actually fit together an explanation that makes any reasonable sense. That’s not easy, because for the most part, populations of free and open societies are actually far *more* vulnerable to the type of ‘take-over’ that we’ve come to be victimized by, just because we aren’t at all familiar with this stuff, and so we don’t see it coming, or recognize it for what it is when it does.

The very planned for and INTENDED affects of such a “Coup” by a fascist regime, are to destabilize the entire infrastructure, usually be way of terror and chaos. That includes the government infrastructure, the social/human infrastructure, as well as the physical infrastructure. Having been among the first wave of victims of this gangster regime, (almost immediately following the judicial Coup of 2000 that put them in the White House), I initially thought that ‘it must be me’, because that’s part of the plan in destabilizing any form of government. However, it took me returning to academia after a very long career in another area, before I was finally able to make some logical connections, and that continues, as of course we all continue to experience this on-going disaster, in one way or another. Meantime, I continue to study it all as best I can, and to share whatever MAY be helpful to others

2
Again, I can’t ‘force’ anything on anybody, and that has never been my way or my purpose. However, this attack, and the GRAND THEFT of our resources, (including the human ones) has both an individual as well as a collective effect, and so it does benefit us all, to have some idea of how this happened, so that we can hopefully find ways not just to redress and justice, but to the unity that is required. Because as long as we remain victim to the oldest con in the book, -divide and rule- we are pretty much doomed. And for all the talk of ‘revolution’ (a word that has been too used, and lost its meaning) I will just remind of the lyrics of an old tune from back in the day, when we *did* in fact create a revolution. Remember the words of Gil Scott Heron,

“The revolution will *not* be televised! Will not be televised, will not be televised!”

So if we’re looking for blood and guts in the streets..that’s not gonna be the way it works this time. It didn’t fully accomplish anything before, or we wouldn’t be dealing with this again. The primary reason that Dr. King’s dream, the one he shared with all of us did not fully materialize, is because of the DIVISIONS *within* the structure, that ultimately broke it down. Splinters of self-interests, which are human nature, but which can be disastrous if we aren’t aware of the consequences.

Over a year ago, a poster whose name I will refrain from writing here, (superstitious I guess…he hasn’t been around in a while, at least under that name, and I don’t want to ‘wish him up’) made a very astute comment that sent chills down my back, because I was forced to acknowledge the truth of it. He said something to the effect of:, Well, the Republicans aren’t going to have to do anything to win this election again. All they have to do is just sit back and let the Democrats destroy each other.”

This guy was of the hard core radical right, (religio-conservative) and one of the 28% at the time, still supportive of this gangster regime of Dick Bush. Well, he might have been crazy, (as anyone supportive of such destruction would have to be) but I recognized the chilling truth of his words. And sadly, we’ve watched that happen, though it would be incorrect to say that the repugs haven’t ‘done’ anything to make it happen. We continue to see them manipulating all of the main stream media, and they’ve infiltrated progressive sites such as this one as well, capitalizing on the agony, anger, misery and confusion of the intentionally created chaos. And as long as we remain so divided, and at each other’s throats, maintaining the chaos, then they *do* win. That’s the whole point of terrorizing us and CREATING the chaos to begin with. These takeovers of democratic societies can only happen when there is chaos, and a constant state of destabilization. For these regimes or dictators, any measure of stabilization or *balance*, prevents them from being able to do the deeds of destruction.

So they create a class war, where the masses are so busy warring with each other or otherwise competing for ever dwindling resources, and while we’re so distracted, they walk off with all of the loot, leaving us scattered like so much debris, broken in the broken streets.

So I wasn’t kidding Kdelphi, when I told you about the men, women and children that I reach out to everyday, with what little I can possibly provide, because I’m in no ‘better’ human condition than they are, and it is of NO salvation for me, to have everyone else around me, suffering just as much.

For those of us who choose to pay the slightest bit of attention, when we *can* lift ourselves just a bit enough out of the misery to do so, we see more and more decline every single day! The homeless population in my own small community, (small compared to many urban or suburban populations) has grown to a rate that no conscious person can ignore or otherwise fail to miss.

3

I’ve spent the past several years helping veterans and their families, to the extent that I can, just with the bureaucracy that has been able to finish them off if these senseless wars didn’t. It is an abomination to have our veterans living in the streets, just as it is an abomination to have ANY human living in the street and pissing in jars, and hungry. These are not DEADBEATS. These are men and women who have worked all of their lives, and often in the service of the rest of us, only to find themselves tossed aside like so much garbage, by the totalitarian take over of a regime that uses the resources of the state to enrich themselves at our expense. This may not be an exact replica of the Nazi Germany form of totalitarianism, (which is what Sheldon Wolin is quick to point out in his excellent work, “Democracy Inc”) because there are differences. This is more like the neglect suffered under the Stalin brand of totalitarianism, when humans were shuttered into gulags and simply left to rot.

So yes, I DO help these people, because I am one of them, and we have to help EACH OTHER!! THAT is the revolution that will not be televised, because revolutions of destruction don’t work. What may have seemed to work at one time is not the same tool for the same job now.

There has to be a better way. So again, this revolution will NOT be televised, because it has to happen far less ostensibly than that. We don’t need to demonstrably TEAR SHIT DOWN anymore, because the elite have done that for us, just by sheer neglect of the human condition. There are far more productive ways to exercise dissent. And when a complicated system is broken, you have to get INSIDE the thing to fix it. If the car won’t run, you don’t just stand around throwing rocks at it. You open the hood and find out what the hell is wrong with the motor!! And if you don’t know what’s wrong with it, or don’t have the tools (including the knowledge) to diagnose and/or repair it, than find a mechanic to help you!! And while it may be reasonable to be wary of the mechanic, (especially if he or she resembles whomever is suspected of breaking it in the first place) it is counter-productive to throw rocks at the mechanic too, until he or she has at least had a chance to look at the flippin’ motor and try to help you repair it.

Anyway, I too watched Obama’s address last night, and was able to see Bill Clinton’s as well, from the website here. I gave up my TV long ago, because I don’t watch TV, and only one channel is available in my area anyway, UNLESS one subscribes to “basic” cable for $59.00 a month. (I’m serious…just to get anything other than ABC). So, I’ve missed a large portion of the Convention, but I knew that there was a way to watch this stuff on line, so I checked it out and set myself up in time to catch last nights events live. (I missed Biden on Afghanistan, but I’m sure I can go back and find out what you all are appalled about).

But I said that to say that I too, felt it to be an awesome and very powerful address. I also didn’t find it to be any different from what Barack has been saying all along, because those are his convictions, whether we all agree with them or not. I share many of the concerns that so many Americans do, about ANY continued militarism, which includes Afghanistan, and what I’ve seen as the continuing deliberate attempt by the neocons to maintain perpetual and total hegemony over the rest of the world, by way of military aggression, and that includes this initiation of conflict with Russia, and the consistent harassment of Iran.

4

However, the issue of global terrorism is not the ‘joke’ that we’ve cynically come to think of it, because of the *created* so-called ‘war on terror’ that this cabal is using as an excuse for its own destruction and financial empowerment. In other words, terrorism DOES exist, largely because this imperialism of former decades has created it. And while I personally may not see the wisdom in hunting bin Laden down in his cave, we cannot simply ignore the conditions that have given rise to global terrorism. Even though I don’t personally believe that al-Qaeda played anything more than the part of patsies in the events of 9/11, the point is that they COULD have done it, and that they were willing and able to carry it off.

Last but not least, just because this points to the ‘danger among us’ but at the same time made me laugh, I’m reposting a comment from another thread. A few months ago, a couple of our infamous (and most offensive trolls, rus7355 and JBlack) decided that *I* was not only Cyrena, but Outraged as well. So they’ve been accusing me of being her, and I’m the only one of us, (at least that I know of) to attempt to defend our independence as TWO people posting at this site, and not Cyrena/Outraged. (as if the shit isn’t already crazy enough,) rus numbers and JBlack wanna turn this into a “Sybil” experience. I suspect that Rus7355 and JBlack are actually the same.

Anyway, I thought you all might get a chuckle from this most recent accusation from the rus7355 component….along with my response. Outraged…speak up girl!!

~~~
By Rus7355, August 27 at 4:06 am
Issywise,
• Don’t give up. There are a great many people reading from this site that never comment. …There are people, believe it or not, who actually think things through. That use historical facts. People able to put aside their deep seated bigotry. ..Keep posting.
BTW: Know that Cyrena and Outraged are the same person(s). Knowing that lends some much needed insight and context.
~~~~~~~

More proof here for all the world to see. In his words…rus claims that knowing that cyrena and outraged are the same person, ‘lends some much needed insight and context’. That alone speaks to his mentality, if he obtains insight and context from an falsehood created initially by JBlack.

So now, are we to assume that Rus7355 and JBlack are one and the same entities? (note that I didn’t say/write, ‘person’ or person(s)’ since I’m not convinced either of them is.

Now Outraged, I don’t know if you were tuning in back several weeks ago, when JBlack was insisting that we were the same. (I saved the posts if you want to read them).

Either way, could I interest you in a session of Truth or Consequences, just to entertain rus7355 and JBlack? Just as proof of his ability to recognize (that he doesn’t have) insight or any recognition of context?

~~~~

Meantime Rus7355, Issywise is actually Ardee, and he picked up his marbles, (or at least the few cracked ones that he might still have) and spilt. He did threaten to drop in again sometime, which obviously prevented the full comfort of relief that we experienced in his departure.

If only you would do the same. But, I guess that’s too much to ask. Besides, there’s the bright side. It’s great fun watching you make a total ass of yourself. Keeps the rest of us from having to point it out. Still, why don’t you lose the ‘bigot’ label. It’s as old and tired as you and JBlack appear to be. If you’ve called me a bigot once, you’ve called me a bigot a million times, and it’s apparent to any sane person that while I might be a lot of things, BIGOT is not one of them. If I am ‘intolerant’ of anything, it is the ignorance that creates such bigotry.

As Emma Goldman has so astutely reminded us long ago..

~“Ignorance is the most violent element of society”

Part 3

Re: Cyrena

Your comment: “So no. At the end of the day, this isn’t about some overwhelmingly superior integrity that Ralph Nader has over ALL of the candidates, because I won’t believe that he has more ‘integrity’ than ALL of the other public servants who have been part of this entire ordeal from the beginning. I have to give anybody that has been willing to put themselves out there…and make themselves available to ALL of the people, just as much credit as I give Ralph Nader and his integrity.”

> I have to say Cyrena, in this comment you speak with “forked tongue”.  If Nader actually believed that he had (your words) “ more ‘integrity’ than ALL of the other public servants who have been part of this entire ordeal from the beginning” why would he have built all these public organizations, with the inclusion of ALL of these people...?  If he actually thought that he was a one man show, why… in fact...why fight for the people at all and why have others help....?  What you are asserting hasn’t ANY logically premise.  In fact, if he were a one man show, he could just make his way in the world through the wonder of infomercial bullshit.

Your comment: “I probably understand as well as anyone, why he hasn’t, because I couldn’t’t do it either. I’m the same type of personality that would have expected, (at least until well into my adulthood) to avoid all of that political BS, and skip the ‘apprenticeship’ or proving myself to the masses, and playing the whole game, and just decide that I should be president, without bothering with any of that. Basically, I still am. But I have enough sense to know that it wouldn’t happen.”

> I love you Cyrena...I do. But I would not put you and Ralph Nader in the “same personality” in any regard.  I do not think the both of you are of like minds.  Anyway, that’s my perspective.  Hang tough.

Part 2

Re: Cyrena

Your comment: “But what I find the MOST egregious in all of this, is that *none* of these ‘rejections’ of the so called ‘status quo’, are directed at those who are MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HORRIFIC DAMAGE! Rather, it’s all become about Obama. IOW’s, Let no sincere effort go unpunished.”

I feel you are reading this wrong.  No one is BLAMING Obama for the past.  But the future is NOW, and if Obama wishes to be a part of that FUTURE, he needs to break away from the tyranny of illicit corporate power.  He is NOT showing any type of “change” in this regard.  In fact his actions prove opposite.  For me (and many others), this is THE deciding factor.  My premise is, as intelligent as Obama truly appears to be, he lacks the fortitude more commonly known as backbone, to effect change.

Your comment: “I do have a problem with a portion of his website comparing himself with McCain and Obama, which in effect, suggests that Obama and McCain have the same positions on multiple issues. THAT is disingenuous.”

>That is NOT disingenuous. To that I give my earlier comments as evidence.  They were, “if the same powers control Obama as control McCain how can you possibly “assure” this.  Even if Obama doesn’t think it a good idea and knows better, how much choice will he have?” and “How different will the outcomes actually be, whether it is because Obama capitulates, or McCain flag-wavingly endorses policies AGAINST the interests and wishes of the American People.  The outcome, I’m sorry to say, will be one and the same.”

Your comment: “And, what I can suggest to you, is that it is NOT ‘glaring’, and that’s really the bottom line. It isn’t “glaring” to the 300 plus million Americans, about half of whom may vote. If it was that ‘glaring’, Ralph Nader would have won (or at least come a whole lot closer) one of the 4 elections that he’s participated in over the decades. It might be ‘glaring’ to you or me, or a limited segment of the population, but obviously…that’s not good enough.”

> Again, I disagree.  In the same context that they have marginalized Kucinich, they are attempting to ONCE AGAIN marginalize Nader.  However, the DIFFERENCE is… for MANY over the age of 45, NADER is a household name, Kucinich wasn’t, Nader is.  Younger voters do not find the internet as a intimidating vehicle, so the message needs to be “put out there so to speak”, they’ll “get it”.  Young people DO overwhelming vote IN THEIR BEST INTERESTS.  (I have children this age...you bet they do....they give a rat’s ass about proprieties)

Your comment: “It doesn’t matter how much ‘knowledge’ or ‘experience’ we have, if we either can’t or don’t articulate it to the forces that ultimately hold sway.”

> If I remember correctly, Nader claimed that there were about 1500 LARGE corporations, I’m assuming the “controlling type”.  Well...there’s a helluva lot MORE of us than there are of them.  Use the power YOU HAVE.  EFFECT CHANGE.  Your vote, combined with others is worth more than you are lead to believe, use it.

Part 1

Re: Cyrena

Your comment: “So please don’t misinterpret my words here, because I’ve never suggested what you indicate. So the answer to all of these questions would be a resounding NO! NO, I’m not saying that Ralph Nader doesn’t know what he’s talking about. And NO! I’m not dismissing his experience or his life long work at helping others. And I’m not dismissing the efforts of Barack Obama either. The reality is that they’ve utilized different If they mechanisms to achieve what I believe to be very similar goals, and I don’t believe Obama’s sincerity to be any less than that of Mr. Nader, or Mr. Kucinich, or Ms. McKinney.”

Well...holy christ cyrena, you had me going there for a minute.  Don’t do that to me, I’m likely to pitch one or something, and things like that turn out to be not so promising in my health dept....LOL

Oh and in response to your comment: “So, rein it in here.” I’m reining ‘er in, I’m reining ‘er in.....

Now...where was I..?  Oh yeah, in response to your comment: “You can’t possibly think that there are no fundamental similarities in many of the socio-political values held by all three of these politicians, because that would be entirely unfair, and narrow minded, which I don’t believe you to be.”

> Oh..that “narrow minded” phrase, cut me to the bone...LOL, besides that was MY line...you stole it, although I can say, paybacks a bitch, just like they say it is.  Aside from that, YES, I do think there are similarities.  Of course I do.  However, that doesn’t eliminate the differences.

I understand very distinctly that many people can be of good intent, however few hold the wherewithal and fortitude to withstand attack with restraint and dignity.  This is something which supersedes acuity, knowledge and experience. Very few people actually acquire ALL of these traits, and the ones that do are written about, against all odds.  Many times centuries after their contributions are they accurately understood.

In light of that, I believe the time is ripe, and Nader’s perspective is becoming ever more clear in light of current events. (Funny, how it’s always the worst of the worst which illuminate the intellect of the masses.) I for one, believe they were never stupid in the first place.  It’s usually a case of misinformation, subversion or downright trauma.

Your comment: “The LARGER percentage of people who are claiming to ‘support’ (and zealously) either Cynthia McKinney or Ralph Nader, are doing so NOT because they know all that much about either one of these candidates, (or even an iota of what you do) but because they are rejecting the so-called ‘status quo”, and they are ‘reacting’ to what they perceive as a sell-out by Barack Obama.”

I disagree.  I think people “perceive” Obama as a sell-out simply because he has/is selling out the American people.  Your choice of the word “perceive” is specious.  He has claimed he will allocate $500 million to “faith-based initiatives”. (Am I “perceiving” this, or is it a FACT) He has aligned himself in the foreign relations department with KNOWN war hawks. (Am I perceiving this, or is this a FACT) He voted against the interests of the American people on FISA, a TOTAL capitulation.  (Are we perceiving this or is it a FACT) To aver that this is just some “perception” of people is ludicrous.  These are facts.  In addition, he chooses Joe Biden as VP running mate.  A questionable choice. I’m being kind.  This is a FACT.  Don’t kill the messenger.

cyrena, these were some of the best posts i’ve read from you. thank you for clarifying what i think are some the biggest issues we find on this website. i’m very impressed, and i found that you did everything one could to be nonconfrontational, really reaching out.

well obama has just finished his acceptance speech and i thought it was spectacular. i found it reasuring and engaged me 100%, allaying many of my fears, at least for now. i’m ready to give it up for us, for this “change” which i think he articulated in such a way, perhaps in the wide scope of his address, that many people who have asked what “change” he means can now understand it. i think i’m starting to.

as it is. so be it. xoxoxoxox

nader should run in canada or eu

cyrena--I read every single word of al three of your posts. Once I get past the confrontational quality of it--they are very good. One thing--I think the reason you get so much criticism of Obama/DNC/curertn Dems here is that (except for a few) most people in here find Bush?Cheney/McCain so unpalatable, that it is a given that he is a bigg asshole who cares not at al what people like us think. Its all been said about them. Its they same reason (and I know you know this) that they peotested at the Convention here, and the one in 1968--because they hoped that someone in the DNC would listen to them and give a damn. Obama seems to many to be open to persuasion ie. moral arguments. I’m sure McCain believes he has some moral code--one I dont understand. Bush/Cheney have none. The DNCV has shown more of a propensity to listen to reason, science, peace, human rights. Thats what I believe people are still hoping for.One reason I would like to see nader in the debates, is that, I think he might be able to make Obama look less like what GOP wants to seel him as (meek on terror, tax and spend, etc.)I juast belive nader’s ideas should be part of the discussion. After all, Barr is on the ballot in Ohio, and it just might make a difference in defeating mcCain.I think alot of people are still wavering. After this natl hell--hopes are high, but so is cynicism. I dont think you can blame some people. The least of us are hurting the worst, and I just dont hear anything about it. The tax rate, student loans, “affordabler” health care, all seem aimed at the middle classes and higher. Its like even mentioning poverty is off the table--even as more and mroe people slip into it, often through no fault of their own. I’ve only voted off the Dem ticket a few times. It just gets to be old and I’d like to see a REAl change in my lifetime. So far, none of the candidates (except through Iowa, NH) have shown me that theyre much different from , say, Kerry, Clinton, Biden, Dodd, etc.If people thought Obama was hopeless, I dont thnk they would be saying , “Why isnt he addressing this or that”. They think that he might. Hope that he might.

Nader has been a gifted activist in a rotten country.  He has tried time and time again get the slaves and suckers going without any luck.  He always thought that true information was the key to change once people understood it.  The problem is that they understood it too well and already knew how screwed they were.

Without hatred, thought and action are impossible.  Anger and fear are counterproductive.  Crooks feed on human weaknesses including perpetual anger which is not the same as hatred.  Hatred is a human strength which acts like a compass to point at all the crooks.  Hatred always sees through at least some of the cons so that action can take place.

Outraged:

• “Do actually believe Nader has “no plan”..?  Do you honestly believe that Nader doesn’t know what he’s talking about?  The man has fought for the people for DECADES.  His work has always centered on protecting the American people, and he has effected a great deal of change.  Off hand I can’t think of ONE person who has effected more change in the public interest than Ralph Nader.  So you are being disingenous, not Mr. Nader.  A simple trip to wikipedia easily illuminates some of his many accomplishments.”

Outraged,

First, thanks for the links and the info contained in all of the recent posts. I am particularly interested in what are referenced as these international pull up and pull down treaties. I don’t have time to investigate all of them right this minute, (at least for as long as it would take me) but I will. Because yes, those things are of particular interest to me, in addition to the whole.

Next, I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, doubted Ralph Nader’s scholarly achievements, or his contributions over the decades, to much of the things that you’ve listed here. NOR have I EVER suggested that he ‘didn’t know what he was talking about’! So, rein it in here. If you’ve missed other comments from me on Nader, so be it. It’s to be expected.  But don’t put words in my mouth. Not only have I seen the stuff on wikipedia, (which is relatively new, and I would say pretty superficial in light of all that he’s done) I’ve actually read much of this stuff myself. Since I’m not young, and neither is he, I’m very much aware of all the work that he’s accomplished, and I happen to appreciate it very much.

ALL OF THAT SAID, and in the context of the current election, and in the context of this particular article and the interview with Naomi Klein, I was NOT able to locate a plan from Nader for ending the Iraq occupation. I will look again. His campaign website goes into detail on many of this ISSUES that you have listed here, and they are ALL important. There are no ‘specifics’ for Iraq that I could find, and that happened to be what I was specifically referencing at the time.

I was also speaking in references to all of the ‘alternatives’ that have been mostly addressed in our conversations here, and you’ll note that I included Cynthia McKinney, since nearly everyone who suggests these ‘alternatives’ includes them both.

In your response, you are specifically addressing the work and accomplishments of Ralph Nader, which cannot be adequately addressed in the same terms as the contributions of Cynthia McKinney in a way that would make them both equally generic ‘alternatives”. So what *I* interpret, (at least from those who most often present the suggestion) is simply a blind rejection of anything that is remotely related to the status quo, with no thinking going on, that would allow them to acknowledge that there are multiple ‘status quo’ similarities between Ralph Nadar and Barack Obama, just as there are some ideological similarities between them. The same can be said of Cynthia McKinney. You can’t possibly think that there are no fundamental similarities in many of the socio-political values held by all three of these politicians, because that would be entirely unfair, and narrow minded, which I don’t believe you to be.

The LARGER percentage of people who are claiming to ‘support’ (and zealously) either Cynthia McKinney or Ralph Nader, are doing so NOT because they know all that much about either one of these candidates, (or even an iota of what you do) but because they are rejecting the so-called ‘status quo”, and they are ‘reacting’ to what they perceive as a sell-out by Barack Obama. On one level, I understand that, and feel the need to reject the ‘status quo’ myself. But I’ve been doing that all of my life. These people are popping out of the blue with it, and I find it highly suspect.

2

But what I find the MOST egregious in all of this, is that *none* of these ‘rejections’ of the so called ‘status quo’, are directed at those who are MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HORRIFIC DAMAGE! Rather, it’s all become about Obama. IOW’s, Let no sincere effort go unpunished.

IMO, that is a result of the ‘group think’ that I so much despise in the American political mentality. And sadly, in my own observations, (in addition to serious research) about 2/3rds of the American public is so afflicted.

I have all the respect in the world for the work that Ralph Nader has done over the decades. His sister, Laura, is also a superb scholar. (I’ve referenced quite a bit of her work in my own). In fact, here’s a link to a documentary that I use in a couple of the courses in the curriculum that we have here. It’s a bit dated, but the fundamentals are the point.

http://www.der.org/films/little-injustices.html

I do have a problem with a portion of his website comparing himself with McCain and Obama, which in effect, suggests that Obama and McCain have the same positions on multiple issues. THAT is disingenuous.

The major point here is that we weren’t speaking specifically about the ideologies of Ralph Nader, or even Cynthia McKinney. What I was addressing was the suggestion that Obama didn’t have a ‘plan’ as Naomi Klein suggests here. In reality, what she’s suggesting is that in terms of Iraq, he might have a ‘plan’, but it is not a satisfactory plan for someone initially committed as an anti-war candidate. I agree. What I am saying, is that neither does anyone else, at least not anyone left in the race.

You say this:

• “In comparison to ANY other presidential candidate in the running..... Nader’s experience, scholarly knowledge and integrity is glaring.”
And, what I can suggest to you, is that it is NOT ‘glaring’, and that’s really the bottom line. It isn’t “glaring” to the 300 plus million Americans, about half of whom may vote. If it was that ‘glaring’, Ralph Nader would have won (or at least come a whole lot closer) one of the 4 elections that he’s participated in over the decades. It might be ‘glaring’ to you or me, or a limited segment of the population, but obviously…that’s not good enough.

That’s what has taken me the better part of my adulthood to finally reconcile. It doesn’t *matter* if Ralph Nadar is ‘right’ or the best, or if you or I or anyone else *KNOWS* that…we are right! It doesn’t matter how much ‘knowledge’ or ‘experience’ we have, if we either can’t or don’t articulate it to the forces that ultimately hold sway. So we can stand on honor, and integrity, and all the rest, for as long as we want, and that’s all fine and good. But it doesn’t mean that any of us is going to force that same appreciation on the majority of the American public. That’s the reality.

That’s also why Ralph Nader *hasn’t* succeeded in any of his election attempts..for the same reason that I wouldn’t. It’s because while he may attract a small collection of students, youth, or any other movement of citizens, BECAUSE THEY COME TO HIM, he has not, (any more than I could or would) been willing or able to put himself out there to ALL of the people. The American public doesn’t read the kind of excellent scholarship that Ralph Nader puts out, or has been putting out there for decades, because the SAME American population has REJECTED the very same thing from Barack Obama!! He’s said it himself. He started out in these various town hall meetings, presenting much of the same ideology and careful thinking that Ralph Nader has offered for decades, and with the same INTEGRITY, (although obviously not the same level of experience, because he hasn’t been doing it as long). And, it was rejected.

3

People complained that he was too ‘professortorial’ – too detailed – too much information. They don’t wanna hear that. They don’t wanna hear anything expect whatever concerns them, and right then. They don’t wanna know how/why things are so jacked up, especially if it might reflect some culpability on their part. Just fix it. THAT is the average American mentality. More of the ‘let no sincere effort go unpunished’.

So Ralph Nader can stand on ceremony, or some time honored tradition of uncompromising integrity just like the next person can. But reality, (fair or unfair) overwhelmingly suggests that the American mentality doesn’t appreciate that, because for the most part, they remain unaware of it. How the hell else did we wind up with Dick Bush for 8 years? Could it be for the same reason that Naomi suggests here, that “if you’ve proven that you’re a doormat, you can pretty much expect to be stomped on?”
And if that’s the case, why in the hell are we framing that in terms of the progressives and Obama, when we’ve been not just ‘stomped on’ for the past 8 years, but literally crushed by the bulldozers of the criminal cabal of Dick Bush et al?

So no. At the end of the day, this isn’t about some overwhelmingly superior integrity that Ralph Nader has over ALL of the candidates, because I won’t believe that he has more ‘integrity’ than ALL of the other public servants who have been part of this entire ordeal from the beginning. I have to give anybody that has been willing to put themselves out there…and make themselves available to ALL of the people, just as much credit as I give Ralph Nader and his integrity.

It’s unfortunate, (and maybe a loss for us collectively) that Ralph Nader has not been willing/able to make himself more ‘accessible’ over the years. It would have made all the difference I’m sure, if he’d been willing to succumb to the drudgery of the political system by actually running for office, and holding office at the various local levels. I probably understand as well as anyone, why he hasn’t, because I couldn’t do it either. I’m the same type of personality that would have expected, (at least until well into my adulthood) to avoid all of that political BS, and skip the ‘apprenticeship’ or proving myself to the masses, and playing the whole game, and just decide that I should be president, without bothering with any of that. Basically, I still am. But I have enough sense to know that it wouldn’t happen. So while *I* can certainly appreciate the genius and integrity of Ralph Nader, there’s no reasonable expectation that all others will, because he hasn’t presented himself to an American public that is far more diverse, and he’s never humbled himself to ASK for their vote or their support, just as I wouldn’t be able to. It means sacrificing a large measure of privacy, and leaving oneself open for attack from morons. It isn’t an ‘intentional’ arrogance, but it doesn’t matter. People perceive what they perceive, and as a general rule, most will miss anything below the surface. 

So please don’t misinterpret my words here, because I’ve never suggested what you indicate. So the answer to all of these questions would be a resounding NO! NO, I’m not saying that Ralph Nader doesn’t know what he’s talking about. And NO! I’m not dismissing his experience or his life long work at helping others. And I’m not dismissing the efforts of Barack Obama either. The reality is that they’ve utilized different If they mechanisms to achieve what I believe to be very similar goals, and I don’t believe Obama’s sincerity to be any less than that of Mr. Nader, or Mr. Kucinich, or Ms. McKinney.

People get to live (food, water, etc.).  They also get to work (slavery under totalitarian “private” institutions.  Does anyone want Americans to get some smarts?  I sure do.

Biden’s a Drug Warrior as well.  Just so you know.

The rationale for hiring him seems to be that he will serve as an attack dog in the grand tradition of such as Richard Nixon.

“Biden’s stuff qbout Afghanistan last night was horrible!”

AND his stuff on georgia. i’m really worried about this situation particularly. from what i understand, the georgian government and military made the first strikes.

and i hope russia will go to the security council on the polish missile site. they need to make their case. it’s very much 60s cuba all over again, very tentative…

beer dr.--I’m SO lgad youbrought that up! It’s disgusting. That explains why they started the music so son--they were afraid he would say it.They refuse to prosecute the basterds, because alot of them were “in on it” and , obviouisly , they believe in govt spying! Obama seems like the varsity head basketball player and the Dems all of his cheerleaders,. now. This stadium thing will, ultimately, be a mistake.I never did trust the schools jocks and class presidents. I still dont.

“The republicans want four more years, when they ought to get 10 to 20 in prison.”

This was the line in Dennis Kucinich’s speech that the Obama campaign would not allow him to say, during his brief, televised address at the Democratic National Convention.
“I really didn’t get a chance to say what I really wanted to say last night,” Representative Kucinich said the following day.

Youre precisely correct. As I remember it, Obama (when he stil thought he had competition for the Primary--ir he EVER thought he did) seemed fairly progressive on MOST things, in the debates, when they included al the candidates. The shift started when he seemed to think he had to out-hawk Hillary, and started “trying to defend his patriotism” (which he never shouldve responmded to--at least not over and over agin , in my opinion--patriotism is last refuge of scoundrals). The domestic [planks were always lame, but he seemed to have a propensity to listen. (Esp. with allowning the FISA debate on his own website--teh DNC sure as hell didnt watn to hear it!)He shouldve have voted no on changing FISA--but, following that--ZOOM! He seemed to be doing the sam thing all Dems do--throw progressives and dissenters out. For Dems, where liberals/progressives USED to have a voice, I believe that this is disastrous. Even the PDA were censoring their live feed--didnt look too good to the intl bloggers that wer on there, sho kept asking, “what is happening to America?”. And here’s Hayden, arguing about protesters--Hayden of SDS--sigh.Soloman was an Obama delegate, and the Ca. PDA al acted like the congress people in attendance were some king of REBELS. If they were, they would have done more to stop Bush. Since they will not, we have to.Biden’s stuff qbout Afghanistan last night was horrible!

Reagan came over and plied us with cheap wine.  Then he went through our pockets and helped his friends take 90%.  The Bushes came along and torched us for kicks.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121969145343270091. html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today

wall st journal article highlights pda’s efforts within the democratic party.

full interview with nader on democracy now! at 8am et/5am pt thursday (tomorrow or today depending on which coast you are on a this moment)

An interesting interview with Ralph Nader and his take regarding Clinton and Obama by Amy Goodman of Democracy Now. (7 min)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyfSN7B4lYI

Re: Cyrena

Here is another reference, be sure to check out his “quotes” in the areas of interest which are most important to you.  Many of his plans are laid out here.  For example:

His plan for corporate crime:

“After the Enron scandal broke in early 2002, Nader said, “Crime in the suites damages more people’s health, safety, and economic resources b far than crime in the streets,” he asserted. Then he laid out his plan for preventing future Enrons: more stringent oversight of the accounting profession, greater protection for whistle-blowers, a threefold increase in funding for the SEC, and a spate of corporate decency acts on the state level, spelling out when it is permissible to dispose of documents.”

Nader on WTO and “Free Trade”:

“Nader says, “NAFTA and the WTO makes commercial trade supreme over environmental, labor, and consumer standards and need to be replaced with open agreements that pull-up rather than pull down these standards. While global trade is a fact of life, trade policies must be open, democratic & not strip-mine environmental, social and labor standards. These latter standards should have their own international pull up treaties.”

Nader on the Democracy gap:

“Democracy brings out the best in people because it gives them more freedom, more voice, more lawful order, and more opportunity to advance their visions of a just society. In our country, however, there is a gap that needs to be closed-the democracy gap. It is often said that power abhors a vacuum. When people do not claim power, the greedy step in to fill the void. Every day that capable citizens abstain from civic engagement allows our society and the world to tolerate harm and to decay incrementally.”

> It goes on and on.  These are issues Nader has championed again and again.  Let’s be real.  If you’d like more, I feel confident I can find Nader’s position and plan for almost ANY of our most pressing issues.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Ralph_Nader.htm

that’s an interesting take, hetzer. ty

Part 2

From Wikipedia:

“In 1980, Nader resigned as director of Public Citizen to work on other projects, forcefully campaigning against what he believed to be the dangers of large multinational corporations. He went on to start a variety of non-profit organizations:

Capitol Hill News Service
Citizen Advocacy Center
Citizens Utility Boards
Congress Accountability Project
Consumer Task Force For Automotive Issues
Corporate Accountability Research Project
Disability Rights Center
Equal Justice Foundation
Foundation for Taxpayers and Consumer Rights
Georgia Legal Watch
National Citizens’ Coalition for Nursing Home Reform
National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest
Pension Rights Center
PROD (truck safety)
Retired Professionals Action Group
The Shafeek Nader Trust for the Community Interest
1969: Center for the Study of Responsive Law
1970s: Public Interest Research Groups
1970: Center for Auto Safety
1970: Connecticut Citizen Action Group
1971: Aviation Consumer Action Project
1972: Clean Water Action Project
1972: Center for Women’s Policy Studies
1980: Multinational Monitor (magazine covering multinational corporations)
1982: Trial Lawyers for Public Justice
1982: Essential Information (encourage citizen activism and do investigative journalism)
1983: Telecommunications Research and Action Center
1983: National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest
1989: Princeton Project 55 (alumni public service)
1993: Appleseed Foundation (local change)
1994: Resource Consumption Alliance (conserve trees)
1995: Center for Insurance Research
1995: Consumer Project on Technology
1997?: Government Purchasing Project (encourage purchase of safe products)
1998: Center for Justice and Democracy
1998: Organization for Competitive Markets
1998: American Antitrust Institute (ensure fair competition)
1999?: Arizona Center for Law in the Public Interest
1999?: Commercial Alert (protect family, community, and democracy from corporations)
2000: Congressional Accountability Project (fight corruption in Congress)
2001: Citizen Works (promote NGO cooperation, build grassroots support, and start new groups)
2001: Democracy Rising (hold rallies to educate and empower citizens)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader

This doesn’t include his many articles and some of his books.  To imply Ralph Nader doesn’t have a plan or would be lost when dealing with governmental issues, is ridiculous.

In comparison to ANY other presidential candidate in the running..... Nader’s experience, scholarly knowledge and integrity is glaring.

Part 1

Re: Cyrena

Your comment: “So, if anybody thinks we really do have alternatives, they need to put their money where their mouths are, and actually come up with some plans, instead of just telling us the problems, because we already know that. It’s the same as somebody reminding me that I don’t have any money. Well no shit! I KNOW that! Got any ideas where I might get some, or how we might survive without it? How about one of those ‘all-inclusive’ Human Right’s packages?”

Do actually believe Nader has “no plan”..?  Do you honestly believe that Nader doesn’t know what he’s talking about?  The man has fought for the people for DECADES.  His work has always centered on protecting the American people, and he has effected a great deal of change.  Off hand I can’t think of ONE person who has effected more change in the public interest than Ralph Nader.  So you are being disingenous, not Mr. Nader.  A simple trip to wikipedia easily illuminates some of his many accomplishments.

“Hundreds of young activists, inspired by Nader’s work, came to DC to help him with other projects. They came to be known as “Nader’s Raiders” who, under Nader, investigated government corruption, publishing dozens of books with their results:

Nader’s Raiders (Federal Trade Commission)
Vanishing Air (National Air Pollution Control Administration)
The Chemical Feast (Food and Drug Administration)
The Interstate Commerce Omission (Interstate Commerce Commission)
Old Age (nursing homes)
The Water Lords (water pollution)
Who Runs Congress? (Congress)
Whistle Blowing (punishment of whistle blowers)
The Big Boys (corporate executives)
Collision Course (Federal Aviation Administration)
No Contest (corporate lawyers)
Destroy the Forest (Destruction of ecosystems worldwide)
Operation: Nuclear (Making of a nuclear missile)

Nader speaks out against the Iraq War at the September 15, 2007 anti-war protest.In 1971, Nader founded the non-governmental organization (NGO) Public Citizen as an umbrella organization for these projects. Today, Public Citizen has over 140,000 members and investigates Congressional, health, environmental, economic and other issues. Nader wrote, “The consumer must be protected at times from his own indiscretion and vanity.”

We should hold ourselves accountable to each other, at least.  We should keep our friends and acquaintances up to date on all the rackets.  Especially, we should help them to understand what rackets, crooks, suckers, and slaves are really all about.  Obama will be Bush crook lite, just as Bush was Clinton crook lite. Under a system called “crookism” everything is likely to become even more bogus with each day, regardless of Washington.

moineau: ‘… chaque vote contera dans la somme....‘

Well, there are two ways of looking at it (as I see it).  In a practical or pragmatic sense, one’s single vote has zero chance of deciding the election: it will go as it goes, regardless of whether or how one votes.  So one is free to vote as one pleases; there is no point in voting for someone one doesn’t like or doesn’t believe in, because it won’t make any difference to the outcome.

However, you may feel that your vote has some kind of moral, spiritual or emotional significance—it is a way of confirming and exercising your attachment to a community and its supposedly democratic intentions.

In that case, I’d say it’s all the more important to vote for someone whom you actually believe in, and especially not vote for someone you think is likely to do evil (lesser or not) and thereby attach yourself to the evil he or she does.  Because your vote does count.

I’m not saying one can’t ever enter into a compromise, but in the current case, as with most national elections, no deal is being offered, at least not to the likes of me and probably you.

McKinney and Nader (there are people here who know their policies beter than I do) dont post everything on their websites. Their websites (built on far less $$ and expertise than either of the finalist Dem candidates)are bzre bones. There is no way you could find out their programs by readin their website--WHEN you can read thenm! lol but,that said, I’ve known how Nader feels about war, FISA,human rights, health care , jobs, etc, for many years. I dont expect everyone else to k now, and I certainly dont think he will win. So, I guess what people have to decide is, (if they feel at odds over the DNc thie year)do they want to help the Dem,s win, which makes a whole lot of good sense;or are there things about he DNC that they just can’ t stomach anymore. If they cast a vote for someone that loses, this shoudl not be a big stretch for anyon ewho has voted Democratic in the last few elections!btw--I call myself a progressive or a liberal--its other peopeo that seem to have problems with it. Some Obama supporters are the most adament about it--its not “bi-partisan”. That may be true, but when running in the Dem Primary, I found Reagan and Obamicans (NOT MY WORD!--OBAMA"S!)a littel nauseating.I would NEVER vote for McCain. Never. Die first.

oui, à chacun son goût, et pour le mien, un goût de réalité que je ne suis qu’une personne parmi plusieurs qui vont électer obama pour président en place de mccain. je ne suis pas sans honneur, cher compatriot, pourquoi essayer de me faire sentir déshonorable ou idiote? vous n’êtes pas ni plus grand que moi ni plus honorable. chaque vote contera dans la somme: n’est-ce pas une vraie pensée? et ne suis je pas un être humain? si vous devez vous expliquer comme ça, c’est moi qui vais me taire. j’ai fini avec vous.

cyrena, i loved your posts. one thing i’d have to point out, though, is that what many people have a problem with is the very thing you find comfort in: his foreign policy expert team. they are people we have been highly critical of in the past, albright, brezinski, et al. and joe biden. they’ve all been pretty wise, though, when it’s come to iraq and to wanting diplomacy with iran.

we’ve got to see the bigger picture, and i like what you say about the alternative candidates, you articulated what i haven’t been able to: they know the problems, they’re awake, and so are we. but they and their teams have no concrete solutions except to change our posture on everything.

well, i do believe that obama will change many of these postures and so do many other “progressive” (oh the much hated word here) voters and so does much of the rest of the world. all you had to do was watch him in action overseas, and i could because i’m a global citizen at heart and actually care what other people think unlike the brainwashed repubs who can only think of his trip as treasonous “pandering”, and that’s crap!

no, i think he will change america’s posture in the world and bring fresh leadership to what has been viewed as a mickey-mouse presidency (with corruption). i do believe that he will “real”.

i don’t have to love him to support his candidacy. and i know for a fact that he is far far less dangerous than mccain. that’s enough for me.

cheers, cyrena. except for statements about finding comfort in his foreign policy team, you nailed this one in my view. xoxoxox ~LT

moineau: ‘… “Your single vote is not going the change