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Did Hezbollah Win?

Posted on Jul 19, 2008

Link TV’s Mosaic Intelligence Report is back with an in-depth look at the recent prisoner swap between Lebanon and Israel, comparing and contrasting how the leaders and people of both nations viewed the exchange and investigating what it might mean for Hezbollah and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in particular.

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By Sepharad, July 23, 2008 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Wallditzo et al—

If you truly care about the welfare of the Palestinians, you at least should learn the history of the region—Ilan Pappe and Finkelstein are not the only writers out there, certainly not the most unbiased ones. Jews ARE indigenous to Israel (or Palestine, as the Romans named it). Not all Jews died or ran away after the Romans’ attempted ethnic cleansing—many scholars and artisans remained in Jerusalem, many shepherds and farmer lived in the hills and the desert just like the Arabs. And these early Arabs, by the way, were not Moslem but pagans. Mohammed wasn’t born till the 700s (CE). Archeological proof exists of pre-Roman Jewish civilization (most recent find a goblet with King David’s seal); the histories of other ancient civilizations, e.g. Persians, are full of references to Jews in Israel long before the Romans changed the name to Palestine. People like my great-great-grandfather* fled European and Russian pogroms in the early l8th century (*from Romania, 1828) to Israel, and much earlier, in medieval times, Diaspora Jews regularly revisited family in the Holy Land, as well as many commercial traders. British novelist George Elliot wrote her novel “Daniel DeRonda” based on accounts from a rabbi friend of hers who came to England in 1874 to bring Jews to Palestine. Many young Jews came to Palestine because they were forbidden by their own community to fight people attacking them before what we know as Zionism began in the late 19th century. Palestinians have NEVER ruled Palestine between the Romans conquest and the establishment of modern Israel. The Ottomans ruled for many centuries but when they were defeated in WWI the Brits and the French hacked up the Middle East disastrously, greedily competing for oil. When the Zionist movement began, the Jewish National Land Fund purchased land from Palestinians, absentee Palestinian landlords and from the Ottomans. After WWII, Israel had to absorb not only WWII European refugees but 900,000 Jews kicked out of Arab lands where they had lived for centuries under the Ottomans, in what the Arab League’s Iraqi ambassador described as a “population exchange” theoretically providing homes for the 800,000 Arabs who left or were driven from Palestine during the ‘48 War of Independence. So how come the Palestinian refugees and their descendents, now numbering 3million, are still homeless? Ask the Arab countries: the Palestinians have an ARAB problem, not an Israeli one. There are many sources of fact: Joan Peters’ “From Time Immemorial,” the recently declassified British AND Ottoman archives, many history books re Islamic society by both Western and Arab authors (see Fouad Ajami’s “Dream Palace of the Arabs”, and the great medieval Arab historian Ib’n Khaldun. Amos Oz, born a third-generation Jerusalem native, has written extensively of the history of the land as well as his novels. He is also the leader of the main peace movement, and has great empathy for the Palestinian situation.

The first King Hussein of Jordan (80% land area of the original Palestine) welcomed the Jews as neighbors. Anwar Sadat and the second King Hussein signed treaties with Israel. And the Turks, Kurds, and many of the ‘zstans countries are steady, quiet supporters of Israel. Do you think they would do that if Israelis were truly abusing their brother Moslems?

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By walldizo, July 23, 2008 at 2:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Howard,
Ok, if Pappe’s book is not enough to expose the true face of Israel, then read Gideon Levy’S recent piece on Haaretz ,“Israeli Occupation “Worse than Apartheid”.Wake up Howard, this is the 21st century where people know the truth and can’t be fooled by the Zionist propaganda any more.

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By Howard, July 22, 2008 at 4:52 pm Link to this comment

Pappe is a wacko of the highest order and not taken seriously by any historian or any scholar of the subject

Pappé bases his accusations against Israel not on substantiated facts, but on Palestinian narrative. He freely distorts the truth to conform with his ideology. Thus he attests to Israeli army-perpetrated massacres that never occurred. He promotes the myth of a 1948 massacre of the villagers of Tantura, claiming that the Israeli academic establishment is conspiring to repress the information, and he continues to propagate the lie that Israeli committed a massacre in Jenin in 2002 despite copious refutation (including United Nations reports) of the bogus claim. As in the Tantura case, he suggests there is a conspiracy to cover-up the Jenin “massacre”.

Pappé has long acknowledged that he is not objective and cares little about factual accuracy. He readily admits that ideology drives his historical writings and statements. And his ideology can be simply summed up: Israel is illegitimate and should be the target of international sanctions until it is dismantled as a Jewish state.

Makes him a non credible source.

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By karen Moyer, July 22, 2008 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

” I know of no nation on earth that yearns for peace more than Israel.”

Howard must think that we’re all stupid or either he lives in lala land! Do me a favor…just read Ilan pappe’s book, “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.” It’s written by an Israeli Jew and he will tell you if Israel yearns for peace!

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By Howard, July 22, 2008 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

Lecture Israel on the need for Peace?  Give me a break, please.

I know of no people on earth that has prayed for peace longer than the Jewish people.  Turning “swords into plowshares” and “spears into ino pruning hooks,’’ and viualizing a day when the lion and the lamb would lie down—and wake up—together wren’t conceived as slogans on Madison avenuel; they’re the Jewish people’s age-old contribution to to civilization.

I know of no nation on earth that yearns for peace more than Israel, no nation victorious in unsought wars, that has been more generous in yielding to its vanquished foes’ terms in pursuit of paeace, and no nation that has taken more demnstrated-and tangible-risks for the sake of peace than Israel.

To think otherwise is to assume that Israel would prefer a state of permanent conflict, and that, quite frankly, would be preposterous.

But can any well-intnetined person truly believe that the Jewish people, resettled in the land of theer ancestors, after centuries of violence, persecution, and stigmatization, would seek anything other than a long-denied tranquility and peaceful coextience with neghbors?

Or that Israeli parents would wish to see their children, and then their grandchildrenm, and then their great-grandchildren go off to war,perhaps never to return?

Or that Israelis would take their cue from Hamas and Hezbollah leaders who propagate a culture of death and mayhem, when, in reality, Israel and the Jewish people have made an art form of celebrating life and seeking it enhancement?

NO, the Israel I know desperately seeks peace.  Israel’s Declaration of Independence expressed it. The Israeli concessions for the Egyptian and Jordanian peace accords showed it. The withdrawals from Gaza and Southern Lebanon proved it.

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By walldizo, July 22, 2008 at 3:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Howard& Sepharad
Lamenting your days when your government would shock and awe the poor Arabs unhindered, thats something we abhore.But if you truly regret the unfortunate ednding of the two Isaeli soldiers, then we too feel sad for their terrible fate.Likewise,hundreds of Arab coffins were recieved from Israel and many mothers waited patiently to pay tribute for their loved ones.No nation would like to see their children die or maimed,but when confronted with humiliation and destitution, they will fight to retore their pride and for pride there is no price. Its this spirit which kept the Arabs going and now it is enforced by the war of the people, Hezbollah that is.

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By Howard, July 21, 2008 at 8:13 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,  thanks much !
And your comments are appreciated and well stated !

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By walldizo, July 21, 2008 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Those you call murderers are the true natives of the land, they didn’t come from the gettoes of you name it land.If you count the children killed and maimed by the Israeli terrorists there will be no place for comparison, yet, we do condemn the killing of children and civilians.Its time for people like you to wake up to the new realities;people are no longer buying your propaganda since they can get information material directly from the true source.Palestinians have lost more than 420 killed,one third of which are children, since the so called peace process sponsored by the US.So please brush aside your silly protestation and try for once to be more realistic.

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By mrmb, July 21, 2008 at 11:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)


Stop being such a cry baby. Israel got its ass kicked twice and both times they tried to spin it.

The invaded Lebanon in 1982 and they were militarily defeated by a guerilla organization that drove them out of Lebanon. Historical fact.

According to Israelis themselves they had planned an invasion of Lebanon and the abduction of the soldiers was used as an excuse. We saw the results. Israel lost, another historical fact.

Israelis alledge that Kuntar smashed the head of a 4 year old girl. Would I believe israeli claims? Hell NO.

They are lying, thieving, murdering scums.

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By randyha, July 20, 2008 at 6:01 am Link to this comment

Israel was waiting for an excuse to attack Lebanon…they miscalculated. Just like now Israel and its supporters in the US are scheming to attack Iran. So yes, Israel started the war!

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By Walldizo, July 20, 2008 at 3:55 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israelis had the chance to settle this matter without having to pay this price and at the same time spreading her death and destuction all over Lebanon.It was the Israeli arrogance and hubris that led Israel into believing that only through shock and awe will Arabs bow to Israeli demands.This is not however,the first encounter between Israel and Hezbollah, and Israel should have known its capabilities since 2000, the year when Israel was forced by Hezbollah to abandon Southern Lebanon, occupied by Israel since 1978.As for the saudis,this rotten, corrupted moribund family,its obvious that they have no future, and albeit the support they derive from both the US and Israel and the purchase of most Arab newspapers including the one referred to, Al-Shark-Al-Awsat,they are standing on a shaky ground.True, unless peace is proclimed a priority for Israel,this day will mark the decline of Israel .

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By Sepharad, July 20, 2008 at 12:02 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)


You’re right of course, but don’t expect the many anti-Israel nutcases that pollute truthdig to respond to facts. Cyrena doesn’t even believe it when the Saudis tell the truth for a change. Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaeda—they’re all cut from the same death-worshipping fascist Islamist cloth, stoneage savages with plenty of financing and lethal modern weapons.

Randyha, Israel does not exist to provide hostages for Hezbollah to for exchange prisoners who have murdered Jewish parents in front of their children then bash the childrens’ brains out on a rock. I admit the war wasn’t well planned: Olmert and some of the commanders screwed up bigtime, and the Israelis are making sure those errors will not be repeated.

Jews are no longer willing to simply look the other way when their people are kidnapped or threatened or killed. I do wish Israel had a competent PM—Ariel Sharon is sadly missed in these times, and I hope Tzipi Livni can get the job. (Biggest fear is that Netanyehu will somehow get that post: he is as much a fundamentalist as the Hezbollah/Hamas scum.)

Personally, I think Israel should only release live prisoners in exchange for live soldiers: if the soldiers are corpses the Israelis should throw the bodies of the released prisoners over the border, particularly the murderous Kumtar, who killed a father in front of his child then dashed the 4-year-old’s brains out on a rock. However, I am not living in Israel and will not criticize any decision they make, any policy they pursue. No more Masadas, no more Holocaust, no more Munich slaughters: those who spill Jewish blood are going to find it increasingly expensive. I realize the Cyrnenas of the world prefer dead Jews like Anne Frank to Jews who defend themselves, but they’d better get used to it. The problem, of course, is how to fight people who embrace death. I suppose we’ll have to find a way to annihilate those to SAY they welcome death but tend to live long and richly while duping others into martyring themselves. They are despicable.

I’m a secular pro-Zionist progressive Jew with family in Israel who used to be in the peace movement, but they are increasingly doubtful that there is any possibiity of achieving peace with moderate Arabs in a second state. To be sure there are progressive Arabs who want to live normal lives, but they are home, shutters closed, afraid of the monsters who have taken over.

Anyone who seriously celebrates a Hezbollah victory of any sort is either a religious nut or a moral monster. It’s quite disturbing to listen to the sick (or possibly just stupid? or self-hating?)anti-Semites crawling out from under their rocks. May they share the martyrdom advocated so freely by their jihadi rockstars.   

Hope Lefty has the strength to continue jousting here—and where has lilmamzer gone? The level of venom is approaching a level I don’t even want to keep in mind long enough to rebut.

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By Howard, July 19, 2008 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment

  I guess we in the U.S. started the second world war, then too. eh? 
  That’s what it would be like since you claim Israel started and planned the war with Lebanon two years ago.  Nonsense.
  Hezballah crossed the border into Israel and abducted and killed soldiers.
    what delusions are you operating under ??

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By cyrena, July 19, 2008 at 4:58 pm Link to this comment

Ditto randyha!!

And, screw the Saudis. What the hell is their purpose in publishing an article in the London financial paper claiming that the Hezbollah ‘deal’ had cost them 1,200 lives and $7billion dollars? THEY didn’t start the flippin’ war that killed all of those people and cost all of that money. Israel planned the attack, just like they’ve been attacking for decades, and…THEY LOST!

Because YES. Victory IS in the eyes of the beholder, and not only in the Middle East.

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By randyha, July 19, 2008 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

Olmert is stupid! He did what he was supposed to do 2 years ago to get back the bodies of the two soldiers. Instead he embarked on a costly war that cost Isreali lives, money and prestige to return to square one which is the prisoner swap deal…go figure!

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