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Clinton Slams Obama, CNN Slams Clinton

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Posted on Apr 11, 2008
Clinton

CNN’s political panel takes Hillary Clinton to task over what Jeffrey Toobin calls her “ridiculous” and “embarrassing” attack on Barack Obama’s comment that some Americans are bitter about federal mishandling of the economy. And when John McCain’s criticism of the Obama comment comes up, Jack Cafferty nearly blows a gasket.

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Obama responds to the controversy:

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Comment Pages: 1 2 »

By jabber_wolf, April 16 at 5:18 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Why hasnt anyone called out CNN on flat

Recently they did a piece on Obama’s History.

1 His grandfather was a wealthy man that owned many farms. And His father was NEVER A POOR GOT HERDER!

2. BARAK was not a KENYAN name for blessed. It comes from Arabic and the QURAN. It is in no way African!

3. His father came from the Keynatta regime. When the British left, he took off back to Keyna and left his white bride and Obama!

So many many things CNN never got right because they never bothers to actually look at the FACTS!

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By cyrena, April 14 at 5:37 pm #
(4155 comments total)

Fact & Reality Slam Clintons Too

Part 1 of 3
Clinton’s Experience: Fact and Fancy
By Barbara Koeppel
April 15, 2008

The problem for candidate Clinton is how to stop kicking herself in the leg. Although she’s scored real achievements over the years, when repeating her 35-years-of-experience mantra, she pushes the facts too far.

By now, her gaffes on Tuzla, Bosnia, where her claims of “landing under sniper fire” and “running for cover” are well-known. Ditto her lines on Northern Ireland – where Nobel Peace Prize winner Lord Trimble of Lisnagarvey, Ireland, said she was “a wee bit silly” for exaggerating the part she played in bringing peace.

But if we reality-check some other claims, what can we say of her 35 years, on which she hopes to distinguish herself from Obama, who has actually logged more years in elected posts, counting his years in the Illinois legislature?

To start with, for 14 of the 35 years that she’s counting, Clinton was a full-time corporate litigator in Little Rock, Arkansas, at the Rose Law Firm. Further, for her White House years – aside from her work as chair of the President’s Task Force on Health Care Reform – she served as First Lady, not policy maker.

While First Lady in Arkansas, she did, as she claims, help “transform the education system.” Teachers and others there agree that, as chair of a commission to re-write Arkansas’ deplorable education standards, she was effective. Among other things, the new norms raised teacher salaries and amounts spent per pupil, and reduced class size.
Since Arkansas ranked 49th out of America’s 50 states in most educational measurements, and dead last in the percent of students who went on to college, the base was so low that any gains would be good. But it’s a fact the numbers improved.
Add to the fact column her work on child welfare boards, like the Children’s Defense Fund and the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families.

Dubious Claims
Other claims, however, are downright dubious, if not terminal twaddle.

Let’s start with her now-impassioned concerns for workers’ rights. This is surely an eyebrow-raiser, since her record on labor issues is roughly zero.
For example, she was on WalMart’s Board of Directors from 1986-1992, a company legendary for its low wages and union busting. Not surprisingly, her official biography omits this six-year stint.
Nor does she mention it when she woos Pennsylvania workers for the upcoming April 22 primary. In an effort to expunge the WalMart connection, Clinton returned its $5,000 campaign contribution to her in 2005.

According to Sam Ortega, a Wall Street Journal reporter and author of In Sam We Trust: The Untold Story of Sam Walton and How Wal-Mart is Devouring America, the company fiercely fought any union attempts to organize WalMart workers – threatening, spying on and firing supporters, all illegal acts.
Ortega writes that, during a Teamsters’ campaign at a distribution center, “Sam Walton bluntly told them he’d take away their profit-sharing if they voted for the union.”

Further, Ortega says many workers “remember his (Walton’s) threats with perfect clarity.” He adds that one worker, Larry Havener, recalls, “He told us if the union got in, the warehouse would be closed.”
Worse, Ortega writes, “union activists were soon laid off—always for some other stated reason, of course.”

Moreover, “Walton asked all employees to call John Tate – the company’s chief union-buster – if they noticed anything that smacked of union activity,” Ortega notes.

Low Wages
WalMart’s devotion to low wages seems not to have lost Clinton any sleep.

Ortega notes that in 1988 – two years after Clinton joined the Board – an Arkansas state senator publicly attacked the company for “dumping its overhead on state taxpayers, saying many of its near minimum-wage workers made so little they had to get by on public assistance.”

http://www.consortiumnews.com/Print/2008/041408a.html

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By cyrena, April 14 at 5:34 pm #
(4155 comments total)

Fact & Reality Slam Clintons Too

Part 2 of 3
Another problem plaguing the company was the use of child workers – some as young as nine – by its foreign suppliers: When shown photos of children in Sakara, a Bangladesh sweatshop that made WalMart-label shirts, the company claimed ignorance.
Another problem plaguing the company was the use of child workers – some as young as nine – by its foreign suppliers: When shown photos of children in Sakara, a Bangladesh sweatshop that made WalMart-label shirts, the company claimed ignorance.
Moreover, despite her long-term concern for health care – along with child welfare, Clinton’s signature issues – she stayed on the Board although Ortega says WalMart insured fewer than 40 percent of its workers.

Why? Perhaps it was Clinton’s $15,000 annual WalMart salary, which rose to $45,000, for her service at four meetings a year, at a time her husband earned just $35,000 as Governor.

Perhaps it was her corporate lawyer role at the conservative Rose Law Firm in Little Rock, where she worked from 1978 until the couple moved to the White House.

Perhaps it was Arkansas’ “right-to-work” fundamentalism that made her mute. Whatever the motive, today’s worries for working-blokes’ concerns ring hollow.

Then there’s NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Agreement), which passed on her husband’s watch in 1994. Critics worried then, and insist now, that it caused the loss of hundreds of thousands of U.S. manufacturing jobs.

Today, candidate Clinton claims to have doubted NAFTA’s merits from the start. But the record indicates otherwise. As recently as 2004, she praised NAFTA as “good for New York and America.” This observation has been omitted in her Pennsylvania campaign.

Health-Care Choices
But more than any others, Clinton’s claims about her desire to improve health coverage and care through her efforts as chair of President Clinton’s health care task force are seriously flawed.

History and numbers tell the story best. In 1993, health care was a crisis for the U.S. public: 37 million Americans had none, and millions more had very little. Thus, public opinion polls ranked it as the number-two concern, second only to the economy – since the country, as today, was in a recession.
A majority wanted universal health care: Even many providers and the American Medical Association initially favored some form of universal plan.
The universal model adopted in Canada and most Western European countries, called the single-payer system, is not socialized medicine, as insurance companies repeat by rote.

Governments do not tell patients which doctors to see. Nor do they dictate what doctors may or may not do. Instead, it’s a payment mechanism, like Medicare: The government pays the health care bills directly, rather than the insurance companies.
This way, overhead costs linked to billings are slashed: In 1993, when First Lady Clinton launched her task force, a hospital official in Windsor, Canada, told me his costs associated with billing the Government for patient services accounted for just 9 percent of the hospital’s budget, while the average U.S. hospital spent 14 percent – a big difference in a multi-million-dollar budget.
In Canada, the savings left huge sums for covering patient care.

Did Clinton’s task force examine the single-payer option? Alas, it was never on the table.
According to Vicente Navarro, a physician and professor of health and public policy at Johns Hopkins University, and a member of Clinton’s task force, he tried repeatedly to get it considered, and failed.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/Print/2008/041408a.html

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By cyrena, April 14 at 5:32 pm #
(4155 comments total)

Fact & Reality Slam Clintons Too

Part 3 of 3
In a 2007 CounterPunch article, “Why Hillary’s Health Care Plan Really Failed,” Navarro writes that although he promoted the views of the single-payer community (unions, grassroots organizations and many providers) “they were heard but not heeded. … I had the feeling I was in the White House as a token.”

Nixing Single-Payer

Why such disdain for the system used in most industrialized nations?

Navarro says Bill Clinton was pushing the managed-competition model, backed by the insurance industry, where the companies “have full control over health-care providers.”

As proof, he writes that Bill Link, vice president of Prudential, stated that “For Prudential, the best scenario for reform … would be ... managed competition.”

The plan the task force ultimately sent to the Senate failed to pass, but not, Navarro insists, because of “bad timing” or the “excessive generosity” of the plan’s proposed benefits, as is generally believed.

Rather, it died because the President and Hillary Clinton refused to send a plan that was truly universal, and one around which the public could mobilize.

Thus, no plan was approved and insurance companies continued to control – and prosper from – the U.S. health-care model.

Now, 14 years later, another 10 million are uninsured and millions more are under-insured – often impoverished by serious or even not-so-serious illnesses.

Again, why? Why rule out even a cursory discussion of single-payer models?

Navarro says Hillary Clinton told him a single-payer plan was not politically possible. But to pass NAFTA, the President twisted every congressional arm he needed to make the deal.

So, why couldn’t he use the bully pulpit to mount the same push for universal health care – an issue on which most of the public agreed?

One answer could be contributions from the insurance industry and those connected to it: According to the Center for Responsive Politics (CRP), over Bill Clinton’s career, insurance industries rank among the top 20 donors, while law and the financial firms are among the top 10 – the sectors often tightly linked to the insurance industry.

Fast forward to 2008 and, based on CRP figures, the industry continues its generosity, this time to Hillary Clinton – giving $913,000 to date. Obama has benefited too, with $700,000.

Since Bill Clinton and other Hillary supporters complain she’s picked on by the press, she would do well if she only claimed what is legitimate. This way, the press would not have to flush out the fables.

Barbara Koeppel is a Washington-based investigative reporter.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/Print/2008/041408a.html

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By PatrickHenry, April 14 at 1:13 pm #
(1109 comments total)

Not to be off track but I remember years ago a friend of mine was a Marine security guard (Moscow) and he use to wear a peace sign on his off hours, upon close scrutiny the peace sign proved to be a B-52 with the words “Drop it” in very fine print.

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By BobZ, April 14 at 1:00 pm #
(88 comments total)

Do you just hear the comment on MSNBC?

A Republican strategist on MSNBC talking about Barack Obama said that American voters “don’t want a president smarter than them”.  While I don’t really believe that, it may help explain why we ended up with George W. Bush.

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By Maani, April 14 at 9:01 am #
(1271 comments total)

Cyrena:

“Oh my, this IS rich. Only you could come up with this bert, or maybe Maani or lib.”

I would appreciate your leaving my name out of your posts when I am not directly involved.  Thank you.

Peace.

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By cyrena, April 14 at 5:19 pm #
(4155 comments total)

Re:

Maani,

I suspect you’ll have to get over it. On the other hand, I can’t imagine that I could or would EVER get around to putting your name in posts as much as you have mine, WHEN I’M NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED.

So, maybe the best way to avoid that, would be to simply not post anything. Kind of like, if ya can’t take the heat, stay the hell out of the fire.

Since you’re unlikely to grant my wish and go permanently -AWAY-, I think you should just get over yourself.

What a whiny namsey pansey...litigator, board member, clergy person, on and on, yada, yada...mr pompous with the stick up....

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By bert, April 14 at 3:20 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to Maani

Maani - I am so sorry that you got involved in this and I hope you will accept my aplogy. I did not intend any of my remarks to refelct on you and cause you trouble or distress.  Bert

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By Conservative Yankee, April 14 at 11:17 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:

Picky Picky…

I’d appreciate it if you would stop using the word “Peace” which you sling like an insult… BUT I know it ain’t gonna happen.. So I guess we’ll have to get used to stuff we don’t like huh?

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By Maani, April 14 at 2:12 pm #
(1271 comments total)

Re: Re:

CY:

With all due respect, there is a difference here.  My use of the word “peace” does not “implicate” any other poster here.  It is a word one can agree or disagree with, or, if you like, post a comment on.

Cyrena adds my name into her posts in a specifically and directly negative and ad hominem manner.  That is “personal,” not just “general.”

Peace.  (yup...)

Report this

By Aegrus, April 14 at 4:45 am #
(741 comments total)

I think it is very ironic how McCain and Hillary are all about Obama’s “platitudes” and make the argument he’s all talk, but what do either offer in contrast? Hillary double-talks and lies out of both sides of her mouth, then doesn’t want to take responsibility for any of her stances. They all want to have their cake and eat it too.

Obama is far from perfect, but he is far more authentic than any of our other options this election. Please stop suckling from the lies of Hillary Clinton and John McCain.

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By Sandy, April 13 at 8:20 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Hillary Hypocrite

This is what I can’t stand about Hillary - spin and twist. I guess she doesn’t remember her husband saying much the same thing on Charlie Rose back in December.

I can’t believe this is the big story instead of Bill’s influence pedaling. How about the story in todays LA Times about his association with a company in China (Alibaba) that is accused of collaborating with China in the crackdown in Tibet. Instead of taking his usual speaking fee for a speech at an internet conference in China, he took an unspecified donation to his foundation.

“A former president of the United States received a donation from a Chinese firm that is involved in censorship, and now his wife is running for president. This is a shame of the U.S.,” said Harry Wu, an exiled Chinese activist based in Washington.

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By bert, April 14 at 3:16 pm #
(686 comments total)

Re: Hillary Hypocrite

I hope you are not saying or even implying that Bill Clinton’s foundation does not do a lot of good in the world. This foundation has literally spent millions of dollars on at least 6 different initiatives including HIV/AIDS, Global, Climate, Healthier Generation, Economic Opportunity, and Clinton-Hunter Initiative to catalyze sustainable economic growth in Africa.

The thrust of the LA Times article was not that he, and by extension Hillary, were complicit in any wrong doing or in any way endorsing censorship.

The thrust of the article is that there are some political and philanthropy ethics advocates who worry that Bill Clinton’s reliance on international businesses and foreign governments to finance his worldwide charity campaigns MAY raise issues of potential conflicts of interest if he were to take an active role in his wife’s administration.

And that may be true, and when Hillary is elected President she will have to talk with lawyers and others to determine what if any role her husband could take un any PUBLIC duties she may want her husband to play.

But to just cherry-pick one small portion of the article and post it here without clarification is disingenuous at best.

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By jackpine savage, April 14 at 2:34 pm #
(698 comments total)

Re: Hillary Hypocrite

Well, considering the connections (just opinions really) between the Clintons’ political fortunes and the Chinese government in the past, one might be prone to see a pattern.  But it can’t be true.  Why?  Well, because it can’t.

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By jackpine savage, April 15 at 4:20 am #
(698 comments total)

Re: Re: Hillary Hypocrite

Well, there were the Thompson hearings after the ‘96 election.  In those hearings, Thompson offered the Dems in Congress subpoenas to make the issue bipartisan and try to clean up campaign finance.  The Dems refused (according to Elizabeth Drew, at the behest of the WH), and then the Republicans hung Thompson out to dry for not prosecuting Clinton with sufficient fervor.

But i’m sure that you remember the Clinton WH nearly having to appoint independent prosecutors to look into their own campaign finance issues.  I’m equally sure that Norman Hsu rings a bell or two.

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By bert, April 14 at 3:24 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to Mr. jackpine savage

I am neither saying it is true, or it isn’t true. In fact, I don’t recall ever posting about this topic. All I am asking is if it is, please provise me with some proof or citations, becasue I can’t find anything.

Report this

By BobZ, April 13 at 5:05 pm #
(88 comments total)

Nutter was Nutty!

I didn’t comment on Nutters comments because they were so over the top. He sounded like George W. Bush telling us how great things are in Iraq. If you didn’t know better you would think that Pennsylvania had never lost the hundreds of thousands of jobs. And why in the world is someone who is earning on average 10 million dollars a year and has an Ivy League education calling Obama “elitist”. That is right out of the Karl Rove playbook.

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By bert, April 14 at 6:02 am #
(686 comments total)

Re: Nutter was Nutty!

And why in the world is someone who is earning on average 10 million dollars a year and has an Ivy League education calling Obama “elitist”.

Citation please. WHO is earning $10 million a year?

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By cyrena, April 15 at 10:48 am #
(4155 comments total)

Re: Re: Nutter was Nutty!

No citations required here bert...you’ll have to look for it yourself, but since it’s EVERYWHERE, you shouldn’t have a problem finding that the Clintons have added to their personal income by $109 MILLION dollars since leaving the white house in 2001, which is why I never could figure out why Hillary had to steal all of the WH china and crystal.

Sooooo tacky. I guess she wasn’t even embarrassed when she had to give it back.

Anyway, that amounts to more than $10 mil a year…

Report this

By bert, April 13 at 3:43 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to jps

You write:  “The vote in a primary doesn’t count for anything,...”

I KNEW IT !!!!!! All these primary elections are totally meaningless. And jps should know. She knows it all.  They don’t count!!!!!!! For anything. Obama’s being ahead in popular vote and delegate counts and so therefore deserves the nomination, as all you Obama supporters are so quick to point out all the time, doesn’t count for anything and the delegates can do what they want when they get to Denver.

Bit that is what the rules state and you are a rules kind of gal.

Try winning a national election without MI Democrats. Now that not only reqyires hope, that requires a suspension rational thought. Good luck with that come November.

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By jackpine savage, April 14 at 3:14 am #
(698 comments total)

Re: Reply to jps

First, i’m a he.  Second, the argument that the primary votes are meaningless and the delegates can do what they like at the convention is the argument that your candidate is proffering.  Third, i didn’t vote for Obama, nor would i have (and as i’ve said before, i don’t vote major party for president unless i’m voting against W. Bush).

And i said that both Dem candidates would have a hard time with MI Dems at this point, because people in MI are pissed off at our state level Dems...regardless of the presidential candidate.

And you didn’t answer the question about whether or not delegates changing their votes before a second ballot would be “disenfranchisement”.  Nor have you ever answered the question as to whether closed primaries are “disenfranchisement” in regards to independent voters (a block that you’ve said makes up 1/3 of the electorate). 

I’m quite interested to hear your views on these matters.

But it’s true, i don’t think that primaries matter.  Then again, i’m not a Democrat...nor a Republican.  And i don’t need any luck in November, because i already know that it doesn’t matter who we elect as president...nothing is going to change.  I also know that there are far more pressing things happening in the world right now than which bozo gets the Dem nomination.  You wouldn’t know it from reading the “news”, and since i never see you on any other thread than the ones that start with “Clinton” or “Obama”, you probably don’t know it either.

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By jackpine savage, April 14 at 2:43 pm #
(698 comments total)

Re: Re: Reply to jps

I didn’t say that there was anything wrong with delegates deviating from the popular vote on the first ballot.  You are the one making up all these new definitions of disenfranchisement, so i just wanted to find out exactly how you use the word and when you apply it.

And you proved my point, the parties are private, so a primary “vote” isn’t really a vote.  Since your party rules say that the vote doesn’t have to be followed anyhow (that is, they only count if the party wants them to count), then not getting to vote in a primary is not “disenfranchisement”.  If the party isn’t obligated to follow the voting, the voting is just a fun little game...it doesn’t mean anything.

And you still haven’t answered the question about independent voters.  Are they “disenfranchised” in closed primary states?  They’re not even allowed to “vote”, much less have them count.

You’re pretty good at twisting, bert, but at this point you’ve twisted so much that you’re saying what i was saying to begin with.  Well, not quite yet, but if you follow your own logic...you will be.

Report this

By bert, April 14 at 6:28 am #
(686 comments total)

Re: Re: Reply to jps

I just went back and read your original post and you also asked me to comment on how wrong it would be for someone who is pledged to a particylar candidate could or would change their vote on the first ballot.

Simple. I do not think it is wrong, plus Rule 12J (see response below)allows for that. So no long discussion is necessary in my viewpoint.

And as you correctly point out political parties have been found by the Supreme Court to be private enterprises and can set up their own rules. So anyone who engages in ant Party activity has no choise but to abide by their rules.

Report this

By bert, April 14 at 6:19 am #
(686 comments total)

Re: Re: Reply to jps

“And you didn’t answer the
question about whether or
not delegates changing their
votes before a second ballot
would be “disenfranchisement”. 

On its face that is an ignornat question.

According to wordnet/princeton on line dictionary, the definition of disenfranchisment is:  “deprived of the rights of citizenship especially the right to vote.”

In other words, if they delegate is voting, NO MATTER WHO THEY VOTE FOR, they are still voting and therefore, by definition are not disenfranchised.

Disenfranchised has nothing whatsoever to do with who a person votes for. It is a taking away the right to vote at all.

Further, according to Democratic Party Rule 12.J:

“Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a presidential candidate shall in all good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them.”

In other words if a particular delegate could not in “good conscience” vote for who they are pledged for, the rules allow for them to vote for some one else.

Report this

By bc41, April 13 at 2:08 pm #
(21 comments total)

assumptions sterotype

Well, let’s be fair.  It was a similar kind of comment by Ross Perot when he said “those people” that put his career away.  He didn’t mean it as a racist thing to say but you run into trouble characterizing people as a group with generalizations like that.  So what if anybody was bitter, or what they cling too, what’s he going to do that is so huge, negotiate with Republicans?

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By BobZ, April 13 at 5:12 pm #
(88 comments total)

Re: assumptions sterotype

It’s only ok to generalize about a group of people if they are “liberal elitists” and live in Berkeley, San Francisco, or Marin County. if Starbucks depended only on liberal elites to buy their lattes they would be out of business? Almost every night on Fox News, we hear Hannity and O’Reilly bashing the liberal elites, and now Hillary seems to be joining in with them.

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By bert, April 14 at 3:28 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to BobZ

What is the main point of your post?, as you do not say.

Starbucks DID just close a lot of stores due to declining revenues.

Report this

By BobZ, April 13 at 11:08 am #
(88 comments total)

From the sublime to the ridiculous

Now we have Clinton out drinking with the boys, slamming down a shot of bourbon and chasing it with a beer. What’s next - her out duck hunting with Dick Cheney? This campaign is being turned into a Karl Rove seminar on how to create a wedge issue. Barack stated the obvious - both parties have let the middle class working people down. NAFTA is the perfect example of that. NAFTA benefited large multi-national corporations, and sucked a million good paying jobs out of the United States, many of them in states like Pennsyslvania. What is also bothersome if all these rich politicians Democratic and Republican getting all upset about the “poor folk” and Obama acting “elitist”. These are accusations coming from a candidate who earned over 100 million dollars over the last eight years, and another candiate married to an beer heiress. Instead of focusing on real issues, you have candidate surrogates going around trying to catch their competitors in mistatements. This is unfortunate for all of us as it reinforces politicians fear of saying anything off the cuff instead of relying strictly on a prepared script. What I really don’t understand is why Clinton is trying to out “Karl Rove” the Republicans?

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By bert, April 13 at 3:29 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to BobZ

You write:  “What I really don’t understand is why Clinton is trying to out “Karl Rove” the Republicans?”

Why do people always assume the worst and blame Hillary first.

The story broke on Huffington Post a very strong pro Obama site. All Clinton did was comment that she disagrees with Obama’s sentiments. If the roles were reversed, Obama would have done the same thing.

If the supporters of Obama are bitching now, what the heck are you going to do in the General against McCain? He and the Repub smear machine are going to hit him with all they got. And they got lots. This is barely a dress rehersal for what is to come.

Get used to it and stop all your griping.

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By cyrena, April 13 at 10:06 pm #
(4155 comments total)

Re: Reply to BobZ

“Why do people always assume the worst and blame Hillary first.”

Oh my, this IS rich. Only you could come up with this bert, or maybe Maani or lib. Maybe because it’s not an ASSUMPTION? Maybe because she’s provided a trillion pounds of PROOF that we SHOULD assume the worst, and blame her at least when she is PROVEN to be a hypocrite and a liar?

Same with this…

“ I KNEW IT !!!!!! All these primary elections are totally meaningless. And jps should know. She knows it all.  They don’t count!!!!!!! For anything. Obama’s being ahead in popular vote and delegate counts and so therefore deserves the nomination, as all you Obama supporters are so quick to point out all the time, doesn’t count for anything and the delegates can do what they want when they get to Denver.

Bit that is what the rules state and you are a rules kind of gal.

Try winning a national election without MI Democrats. Now that not only reqyires hope, that requires a suspension rational thought. Good luck with that come November.”

So bert, now you’ve got Jackpine Savage as a woman. I never thought that from the name, but then we never thought you were a woman either, from the ‘bert’ handle.

You’ve also repeated for the millionth time, that Obama has ‘had it easy’ for the entire duration of the campaign, and he’s being treated with ‘kid glove’s’

How much more ridiculous can you possibly get bert, and actually not expect people to laugh out loud at this point?

And, what could McCain POSSIBLY come up with on Obama that the Hillary-Rove crowd hasn’t already created? McCain may be stupid, but he’s not THAT stupid.

Besides, he’s got more than a full shitload of stuff that he could use on Hillary if she did win the nomination, and he wouldn’t have to make any of it up either.

HOWEVER, because they are such ‘good buddies’ both belonging to the same ‘status quo’, there is NO doubt that they would run a very ‘civilized’ campaign against each other, since they’re on the same damn side anyway.

That’s why McCain is hollering about Obama just as loudly as Hillary is. They’re both repuglicans, and they have to beat that democrat, (Barack Obama) no matter what it takes. Just like Cheney ordered/directed/demanded way back in late 1999, and again in 2000..."JUST GET THE OVAL OFFICE! I don’t care what you do, or how you do it. JUST GET THE OVAL OFFICE”.

That was 8 or more years ago. You see where we are now don’t you?

Nevermind...clearly you don’t.

Now, on MI, since they will NOT be holding another primary, and since their delegates are not going to be counted or otherwise considered…

Why do you attempt to speak for what the people of MI will do in November?

Your record was warped right after you began posting on this site bert. Now it’s just plain BROKEN into a million different little pieces, and none of the stuff connects, and you keep trying to make it connect. That’s the definition of insanity, in case you weren’t aware.

Meantime, I’m ‘getting used to’ Barack Obama being the president. Who’s griping about that?

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By BobZ, April 13 at 4:58 pm #
(88 comments total)

Re: Reply to BobZ

Your comments don’t address the issue that Clinton is no better than Karl Rove in her use of trying to create a wedge issue in order to avoid a discussion of what is really important to the American people. I have no problem with Obama’s taking on McCain in the general election. I do have a problem with Democrat’s who aren’t any better than their Republican counterparts.

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By i,Q, April 13 at 1:24 pm #
(109 comments total)

Glorified Comments

i read both of these “articles” and they look to me like nothing more than glorified forum comments such as we post here. i’m sorry, but i’m just not going to be converted by the assertions of anonymous campaign insiders. i also am not willing to buy the argument that one is more electable than the other based on pure speculation and supposition.

Before the next election, we need to petition the DNC to retool the primary process. This has taken far too long to sort out. And everyone knows that America’s attention span (especially where substance is concerned) is barely longer than a commercial-spot: thirty seconds.

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By bert, April 13 at 3:51 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to i,Q

EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. Instaed of telling PatrickHenry and jps that their article had no sources and was little more than gossip I went on the net and edfor an equally innane article that was pro-Clinton and posted it here with a paraphrase of PatrickHenry’s comment. I thought it was sarcasm but apparently that was lost on them. But Btavo, not on you.

That kind of tactic is generally lost on both of them.

If I had told them outright, they would have gotten all angry and written blustery stuff and been all upset and written all manner of nasty stuff.

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By i,Q, April 13 at 1:26 pm #
(109 comments total)

Refer to links below

Oops, i replied to the wrong post, sorry folks.

See the links below/

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By PatrickHenry, April 13 at 5:02 am #
(1109 comments total)

Ominous Sign

This surely will swing some votes and get others “off the fence” with their vote.

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/It39s-Obama-stupid -Carter-and.3976738.jp

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By jackpine savage, April 13 at 1:01 pm #
(698 comments total)

Re: Ominous Sign

President Carter has now said that he won’t endorse until after the convention.

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By bert, April 13 at 10:48 am #
(686 comments total)

Reply to PatrickHenry

This will surely make some Obama supporters see reality.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=47B82639-3 048-5C12-006FAA614CC2E556

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By Maani, April 13 at 6:11 pm #
(1271 comments total)

Re: Reply to PatrickHenry

Bert:

Re the politico link: stunning!  A truly excellent assessment of the situation.  Thanks!

Peace.

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By PatrickHenry, April 13 at 3:12 pm #
(1109 comments total)

Re: Reply to PatrickHenry

Obama’s got my vote if he’ll cut this albatross called Israel from around my country’s neck.

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By jackpine savage, April 13 at 1:00 pm #
(698 comments total)

Thank god the Clintons are here to “save Democrats from themselves.” If that isn’t elitist, then i don’t know what is.

My dirty little secret is that part of me hopes that Clinton does win the nomination and that it destroys the Democratic Party for good...that organization (such as it is) has outlived its usefulness anyhow.  They aren’t going to nominate candidates who speak the truth and act on it.  They’ve sold their soul to corporate America just like the Republicans.  There is no fundamental difference between the two parties.

So the sooner one or the other is gone, the sooner we can get about the business of rebuilding.  Destruction is the first step of Creation.

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By jackpine savage, April 13 at 5:37 am #
(698 comments total)

Re: Ominous Sign

Thanks for the link

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By Purple Girl, April 13 at 2:45 am #
(236 comments total)

Midwesterns aren't just 'Bitter' We are PIssed!

Hailing from MI - nat.born & raised, Euro descent- 44 yrs old
I’m a livid over the last 35 yrs of BS. WE told them to get off ME Oil, We demanded new innovations and continuously warned against this Inc agenda- since the ‘70’s!!!
I lay the continued Decay of the region (and thus th enations economy), the Attacks against US and the usurping of our Rights and Freedom at the feet of the Oil, auto & Banking Incs who have seized our Country & our Democracy!
I not only beleive they have worked as Hired contractors for the UAE (Saudi’s) but have confiscate our Military to be their mercenaries around the world. Treason, War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity- Levied against these Inc’s and their Operatives In DC!
Guns & God are th only two rights and Freedoms they have not YET been able to pull from our hands (and they will only be able to pry those out when we are cold & dead)
Hillary & Mac are horses (whores) out of the Inc stables.both should be working on their defense, not a presidential campaign!

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By jackpine savage, April 13 at 5:47 am #
(698 comments total)

Re: Midwesterns aren't just 'Bitter' We are PIssed!

Purple Girl (and fellow Michigander),

Would you be terribly surprised to see Michigan turn red in November?  I won’t be.  It’s not solely because of the Dem candidates vs. the Rep candidate.  Our primary boondoggle reflects issues deeper than the nomination...at least here in MI.  Our bungling state government is (fairly or unfairly) perceived to be controlled by the Dems.

Our general pissed offness will almost assuredly get targeted on state Dems (unless they offer up so very good, and new candidates)...and i worry that we will let those feelings bleed over into the national contest.

We’ve got the highest unemployment rate in the nation, and my particular corner of the state has the highest unemployment rate in the state...at over 7%, using the “official” (i.e. bogus) statistics.

Whoever the Dem nominee is will have a long row to hoe here, as he/she will have to overcome the perception of terrible Democratic governance at the state level.  (I don’t know who’d have a tougher time, but the close relationship between Granholm and Clinton wouldn’t appear to work in Clinton’s favor.)

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By jackpine savage, April 13 at 12:50 pm #
(698 comments total)

Re: Re: Midwesterns aren't just 'Bitter' We are

Do we really have to go through this again?  Political parties are private organizations...we have no right to vote in their primaries, just as we have no “right” to enter a 7-11 without shirt or shoes.

The vote in a primary doesn’t count for anything, and as Sen Clinton is quick to remind us, the whole country could vote for Obama in the primaries and then the “pledged” delegates could change their mind at the convention.  Would that be ‘disenfranchisement’?

If one candidate wins delegates by virtue of a certain percentage of the vote and then those delegates change candidates at a later date, how is that not ‘disenfranchisement’?  (And i mean before a second ballot; i’m talking about state convention delegate assignment.) But that is perfectly acceptable under the rules of the Democratic Party, and Sen Clinton is advocating it regularly.  I’ve not yet read a post from you talking about how “wrong” that is.

And slavery is not the same as not having your primary vote counted...come on.

Maani was posting here before the nomination season got under way in earnest; he didn’t start posting here to “defend” Clinton against attacks on the internet.  Moreover, most people here weren’t attacking her until she started campaigning like Karl Rove.

And you’re going to counter argue with a quote from a Clinton about moral obligations and integrity?

I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that if Obama (or uncommitted) had won the MI primary, you wouldn’t be so concerned about it.  But i maintain that since the decision was made by MI state legislators and politicians, the retribution should come from the voters of Michigan.  It is Michigan’s problem and it is not life or death by any stretch of the imagination.  Besides, it wouldn’t even help Clinton because counting it would increase the magic number...she’d still be behind by the same number of delegates as she is today.  She would only make a slight gain under the new, larger number.

But i’ll ask again, were you defending our sacred rights before the Clinton campaign fumbled?  Where were you to stand up for us when the MI legislature was deciding to do this?  I didn’t get the memo about your operating an underground railroad to spirit us poor, disenfranchised out of Michigan and to sweet sweet freedom somewhere.

It’s a non-issue, less than 1/7th of the registered voters here even bothered to show up.  We knew the situation and we acted accordingly.  There has been no great outcry here to even redo the primary.  We’ll get our chance to vote in November, that’s all that matters; primaries don’t elect anyone to office, and the best candidates never make it through them anyhow.

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By bert, April 13 at 10:54 am #
(686 comments total)

Second Reply to jps

You write:  “Moreover, i’m not getting into this “disenfranchised” shit with you again.  You don’t know what you’re talking about it, and it isn’t your problem.”

Here is the PERFECT reply to your stating that MI Democratic voter’s disenfranchisement is none of my business:

“Voting is the most precious right
of every citizen, and we have a moral
obligation to ensure the integrity
of our voting process.”

- Hillary Clinton

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By bert, April 13 at 9:49 am #
(686 comments total)

Reply to jps

You write:  “Was that post directed at you, bert?  Did it not directly address “Purple Girl”? “

I can and will continue to respond to any and all comments here. So do not attempt to censure me. There is no rule here at TD that states I can only repsond to posts addressed to me.

You write:  “...and it (MI disenfranchisement) isn’t your problem.”

Gee, jps, would you have said that about me during the time of slavery if I had operated one of Ohio’s very active routes on the Underground Railroad? 

Anytime ANY American or any democratic primary voter is disenfranchised I take it as my problem. Jefferson said that freedom is not divisible. If any one is not free, none of us are free.

And like Maani, I started posting as an antidote to the hate filled posts and seemingly one sided Obama postings here at TD, especially the ones filled with huge factual errors and ad hominem attacks.

As I have said before, the reason you do not like me and get so angry is that I call you out when you post untrue or hateful things. That makes me proud. I know whenyou get angry I am telling the truth.

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By jackpine savage, April 13 at 9:06 am #
(698 comments total)

Re: Re: Midwesterns aren't just 'Bitter' We are

Was that post directed at you, bert?  Did it not directly address “Purple Girl”?

Moreover, i’m not getting into this “disenfranchised” shit with you again.  You don’t know what you’re talking about it, and it isn’t your problem.

It doesn’t matter if i included citations anyhow, you’d dismiss them as “opinions”.  Anytime anyone cites something that you don’t agree with, you simply ignore it...so why bother?  I said that both candidates would have a long row to hoe, didn’t i?

You talk about how good this site used to be, and you’re right...it was very good until you started posting all the time, calling people Nazis and the like.

Look, i can’t help you with your unrequited feminism and your yearning for times gone by that only look good through the haze of subjective memory.  I could care less who you vote for or why...neither constitute a problem of mine.  Campaign your bitter, boomer heart out...and vote for McCain if you don’t get your way.  Keep deluding yourself that Clinton has a better shot to beat McCain in the general than Obama (neither has a very good shot at this point, mostly because of Clinton’s actions).  Whatever it is that you need to do to give yourself a feeling of worth, please do it.  You could use it.

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By bert, April 13 at 7:13 am #
(686 comments total)

Re: Re: Midwesterns aren't just 'Bitter' We are

And being disenfranchised by the Democratic Party, Dean, and Obama won’t keep a lot of voters home or make them vote Republican? Yeah. Sure. You live in Dreamvile.

Plus MI is considered a swing state going back and forth, voting R 5 times out of 10. (68 D; 72, 76, 80, 84, 88 R; and 92, 96, 2000, 2004 D)

You write:  “...the close relationship between Granholm and Clinton wouldn’t appear to work in Clinton’s favor.)” is this your personal opinion or fact? If fact a few citations would be nice.

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