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Kosovo Could Start a Trend

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Posted on Feb 22, 2008

The Mosaic Intelligence Report examines several statements from Palestinian officials and asks whether the Palestinians, with their own unique problems, are planning to follow Kosovo’s example by making a unilateral declaration of independence.

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For more, visit Mosaic’s website.

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By cyrena, March 8, 2008 at 11:15 pm Link to this comment

the little bastard writes:

” You are so consistently wrong, I rarely even consider replying to your empty, verbose, and annoyingly chatty posts.”

So lil bastard,

WHY DID YOU? I can never understand people who even bother to READ stuff that annoys them. How stupid is that?

Incredibly stupid I would say. I just can’t even imagine having someone putting a gun to my head, and FORCING me to read a comment from from you or any other whack-job on this site. Sometimes I do for the hell of it, and when I don’t have time, I just whizz right through it.

Meantime, just for the record, I have never, ever, once suggested that the US didn’t need to have a standing army, or a DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE.

The millions of other jobs that are supplied as a result of this maintenance of a standing army, are in general, a good thing. The military trains many people for important work in the civil infrastructure.

So, don’t twist my words around, because they are clear enough. I simply have no respect for any of the gomers out there who like to claim credit for ‘defending’ my right to say and do what I want, because that is a lie, and I reject it as such.

There is also a difference between a national standing army as provided and administered by a Department of DEFENSE, and a collection of Americans that have been betrayed by their administration into engaging in what amounts to illegal wars of aggression under the direction of what can only be seen now as a Department of OFFENSE.

And ya know what else lil bastard? YOU don’t really know WHAT position I’m in, so maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to thank your god for anything just yet.

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 4, 2008 at 3:45 am Link to this comment

An invention called ‘the Jewish people’ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959229.html

Israel’s Declaration of Independence states that the Jewish people arose in the Land of Israel and was exiled from its homeland. Every Israeli schoolchild is taught that this happened during the period of Roman rule, in 70 CE. The nation remained loyal to its land, to which it began to return after two millennia of exile…..

Wrong, says the historian Shlomo Zand, in one of the most fascinating and challenging books published here in a long time. There never was a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion, and the exile also never happened - hence there was no return. Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible, including the exodus from Egypt….. It’s all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel, he asserts

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By P. T., February 29, 2008 at 10:13 am Link to this comment

I am not really interested why you are here.  As long as you are here, you will have to take the education that comes with it, hen hawk.

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By lilmamzer, February 29, 2008 at 4:45 am Link to this comment

” So, the Gomers of the US military, regardless of how long they served, did not protect MY life or my freedoms, because those were guaranteed by the Constitution, and when they were threatened, it was right here at home, by fellow AMERICANS.”

You are so consistently wrong, I rarely even consider replying to your empty, verbose, and annoyingly chatty posts.

But here is the exception. This nation wouldn’t have survived wthout a standing US military. That’s a stipulation even you could understand and agree to. And an effective standing army necessarily includes many hundreds of thousands of jobs for uniformed personnel other than front-line combat roles. Many of those support positions are also expected to fulfill battlefield roles if the need arises. Thank god you are in a position of zero influence and authority.

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By lilmamzer, February 29, 2008 at 4:34 am Link to this comment

I wrote:

By lilmamzer, February 29 at 3:29 am #
(829 comments total)
P.T. Wants To Teach

By P. T., February 28 at 8:06 pm

Lil writes, “You’re no fun to spar with.”

I’m not here to have fun with you.  I’m here to educate you.

Well, I’m only here to have fun with you and like-minded fringe whack-jobs. For as long as the amusement lasts, and then I’m off to serious real-world pursuits. <strike>To raise expectations beyond that</strike>

Everything you have ever posted to this point has been trite, stale, unoriginal, and predictably party-line. Now you have added fatuous to the mix.

Thanks for the laugh.”

Clarification: The strikethrough portion as shown above should have been deleted from my original post.

Again, thanks for the laugh.

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By lilmamzer, February 29, 2008 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

By P. T., February 28 at 8:06 pm

Lil writes, “You’re no fun to spar with.”

I’m not here to have fun with you.  I’m here to educate you.

Well, I’m only here to have fun with you and like-minded fringe whack-jobs. For as long as the amusement lasts, and then I’m off to serious real-world pursuits. To raise expectations beyond that

Everything you have ever posted to this point has been trite, stale, unoriginal, and predictably party-line. Now you have added fatuous to the mix.

Thanks for the laugh.

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By cyrena, February 29, 2008 at 2:48 am Link to this comment

Just some observations from a few of these comments. (some with are really entertaining…others speak to some basic truths.
Gomer,
Twenty years in the military on my taxpayer’s dime because you are too stupid to get a real job, loser.
According to you, career US military personnel are axiomatically unqualified to work in the private sector? Serving in the military isn’t a real job? Only a jackass would say something like that. You obviously don’t know many people with military backgrounds. And what do you know of Gomer’s personal qualifications to justify an ad-hoc smear about him?
That was lil mamzer, apparently responding to PT, who had said something to Gomer.

At my age, and being from a huge extended family, I know a whole slew of people who have served in the US military over the past 5 decades, including those who have died or been permanently disabled as a result of that service.  Some of them, (maybe a half-dozen or so) have done 20 year careers.

I don’t find the few that have done 20 years careers, to be any smarter than the others. A few have done well, and others remain eternally ignorant, and serve a limited purpose..then or now. For those in or around my own age group,  it wasn’t a particularly bad life. They DID eat on the taxpayers dime, and they were similarly housed on our dimes as well. A few, (who DID NOT do a full 20 year career) were also educated on the taxpayers dime,  and took up very well paying jobs in the private/corporate sector, after they were educated…on the taxpayers dime. It wasn’t a bad perk to be clothed on our dimes, or to receive a full complement of health care on our dimes either. THAT was the reality THEN, though it obviously isn’t the case now.

That said, it doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate the service that they all gave, or the sacrifices that they and their families made, so that they could do what they believed to be their patriotic duty. My stepfather is a disabled vet, and he has been, since he was permanently wounded in the Korean conflict.

I also have a cousin, who did the full 20 years, and he’s about as stupid as they come. The education and investment is lost on him, because he can’t connect his limited book knowledge with common sense.

That said, I have a tendency to loose my patience with the Gomers of the military, who consistently claim to have ‘saved my life’ and provided my freedom. Because…they didn’t. They didn’t do it in Korea, they didn’t do it in Vietnam, and they haven’t done it anywhere else that I can think of. Not MY ‘freedom’ as a US citizen. So, I’m sick of that. If they fought in anyplace since WWII, it was NOT for the freedom of US citizens. And, most honest veterans of any of those conflicts, will admit that.


So, if the Gomers want to take credit for defending others around the globe, they can. But the only veterans who have lost their lives or suffered injuries defending MY life, or MY freedoms, have been those who have fought for those things on our own soil. The veterans of the Civil Rights Movement are the most obvious example of those who have done that, but they are not the only ones.

So, the Gomers of the US military, regardless of how long they served, did not protect MY life or my freedoms, because those were guaranteed by the Constitution, and when they were threatened, it was right here at home, by fellow AMERICANS.

The communists were not a threat to me, and I’m sick of hearing that. The Iraqis weren’t a threat to us either, and we all know that now.

Thanks for your service. Enjoy your pension, but quit taking credit for stuff that you were paid to do, and volunteered to do, (at least beyond the 4 year stint) as if it ever had anything to do with the lives or freedoms of the taxpayers of the USA. You may have saved lives or ‘freedoms’ but not for us here at home.

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 11:34 pm Link to this comment

The Zionists need to go home to Poland.  Palestine is for the indigenous Palestinian people.

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

Lil writes, “You’re no fun to spar with.”


I’m not here to have fun with you.  I’m here to educate you.

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

I’m glad you didn’t take it personally, hen hawk.

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By lilmamzer, February 28, 2008 at 8:32 pm Link to this comment

Herself?  Okay, make that a hen hawk.

All you’ve got are stupid one-line retorts; no substance, no wit, no sharpened mind, nada. You’re no fun to spar with.

Do you have anything of substance to challenge us with at all?

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

Herself?  Okay, make that a hen hawk.

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 8:09 pm Link to this comment

As I said, anytime, nurse.

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By randyha, February 28, 2008 at 8:09 pm Link to this comment

You are right!  Americans do not fly planes into buildings, they fly planes that carry nukes and drop them on cities like Nagazaki and Hiroshima. They also fly planes filled with Agent Orange and torch entire Vietnamese villages. Also Israelis do not climb on buses to kill innocent civilians, they just use American made planes to drop 5 ton bombs on civillian neighborhoods. They also commit massacres against the indiginous natives like the massacre of Deir Yassin.

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 6:30 pm Link to this comment

Anytime, punk.  That V.D. has gone to your brain.

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By RickinSF, February 28, 2008 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment

So, lil, you’re a female?

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By lilmamzer, February 28, 2008 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

By P. T., February 28 at 3:17 pm
Re: Re: Sing it, Gomer

Lil,

“You admit to paying twice.”

So are you, chickenhawk.

Yes I am, but I want my tax dollars to go to our military. And I don’t mind paying for what I use, even if the price is too high sometimes. Unlike you, I don’t expect a free ride on the backs of dead soldiers.

And you don’t have a fucking clue if I’m a “chickenhawk” or not, do you? Do you know if I’m not active duty military? Or a decorated vet? Or a disabled vet? Or even an Iranian citizen in Tehran who just happens to think for herself? Can’t you defend your asinine positions without making shit up about other posters?

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By lilmamzer, February 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm Link to this comment

Yes - the Jews are the indigenous</b> people of the land.

Some are native children of immigrants, and others’ families managed to avoid exile from their homeland since the last time Israel was sovereign in its own territory, and have been living in Israel continuously since the Romans conquered Israel 2000 years ago.

So if you want to use the word indigenous, it applies to the Jews more than it ever could to the local Arabs, who are ethnically Arabian, Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, or Hashemite. And those sovereign territories can befound on the peripheries of Israel.
So if these Arabs want to explore their indigenous roots, they should go back to those Arab countries and leave their genocidal dreams once and for all.

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 4:17 pm Link to this comment

Lil,

“You admit to paying twice.”


So are you, chickenhawk.

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By lilmamzer, February 28, 2008 at 1:49 pm Link to this comment

By P. T., February 27 at 4:11 pm

Re: Re: Defend all who are attacked

Gomer,
Twenty years in the military on my taxpayer’s dime because you are too stupid to get a real job, loser.

According to you, career US military personnel are axiomatically unqualified to work in the private sector? Serving in the military isn’t a real job? Only a jackass would say something like that. You obviously don’t know many people with military backgrounds. And what do you know of Gomer’s personal qualifications to justify an ad-hoc smear about him?
===============

Then a war of the ruling class comes along

And here is the obligatory infantile Marxist bullshit.
===============

“Steal oil?  I pay twice for it—taxes for the military-industrial complex and at the pump, moron.”

Gomer’s got a point. You don’t have the moral compunction to stop buying the greedy capitalists’ oil, do you? Too inconvenient not too? Or do you really just talk the talk, like Gomer said? You admit to paying twice. Looks like you’re the moron, by your own admission and definition.
===============

Who did you ever defend my freedom from?

So blind and so indignant anyway. How utterly comical you are.
===============

You’re just a stooge of imperialists—a flunky.

And more obligatory infantile Marxist bullshit.
Aren’t you that Che-t-shirt-wearing schmuck who shows up at all those Code Pink Cindy Sheehan rallies?  smile

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

So the Zionist immigrants are indigneous, not the native Palestinian people.  Too funny!

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

Poland

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By P. T., February 28, 2008 at 1:03 pm Link to this comment

Lil,

You must not have seen my terrific response, chickenhawk.  Check it out.  wink

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By lilmamzer, February 28, 2008 at 9:53 am Link to this comment

“Indigenous to where?”

Jews are the indigenous people of Israel.
The Arabs are ethnically Arabians, Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Hashemite (AKA “Jordanian” - representing the lands east of the Jordan river and comprising the bulk of the so-called British “Palestinian” Mandate).

The Jews are indigenous to their homeland of Israel because they have the earliest historical connection, they have the only history of sovereignty in their land, they are the only people to have continuously inhabited the land in an unbroken timeline since the beginning of recorded history, and because, last but not least, they self-identify (rightly and accurately) as such.

And of course, all Jews born in Israel are the true native sons and daughters of the land today, and their numbers continue to grow.

As the sovereign legal authority in Israel, the duly-elected government in Jerusalem can decide who shall be allowed to immigrate and become naturalized citizens - as is the right of any sovereign nation.

In turn, the children of immigrants become natives, and the rightful heirs of Israel continue to thrive in their historic homeland.

This year I will celebrate along with millions of Israel supporters around the world as Israel celebrates the 60th year of the renewal of Jewish self-determination and sovereignty, having survived the Greek, Roman, Arab, Crusaders, Ottomans, and finally the British invasions and occupations.

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By RickinSF, February 28, 2008 at 9:32 am Link to this comment

Brooklyn

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By lilmamzer, February 28, 2008 at 8:05 am Link to this comment

By Gomerspile, February 27 at 2:43 pm

Re: Re: Defend all who are attacked

Aah but I do pratice what I preach,20 years serving this country and others ,defending the freedom that you call evil. ChickenHawk I don,t think so.Are you driving an electric car? Oil stealer.Did you vote or pay taxes? Arab killer. Are you totally organic? hemp shirts,that computer your typing on all that plastic made with oil…your just a hypocrite that thinks ,by typing something negative it’s makes you tough. you talk the talk, but no way in hell could you walk the walk. Because you are a large scale PUSSY,that would run and hide behind me just so you could stab me and others like me in the back,as soon as I’m done protecting your narrow ass. You are the sheep ,they are the wolves, I and the rest of the fighting men in the military and the sheepdogs

OUCH!!!!! What a frickin’ bitch-slap. I love it. This is good stuff.

“Are you driving an electric car? Oil stealer.Did you vote or pay taxes? Arab killer.”

~ Z I N G ~

Don’t stop now - slap in another mag and do it again.

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By Douglas Chalmers, February 28, 2008 at 4:13 am Link to this comment

Indigenous to where? Which…???

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By P. T., February 27, 2008 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment

Gomer,

The war is not here, chickenhawk.  Twenty years in the military on my taxpayer’s dime because you are too stupid to get a real job, loser.  Then a war of the ruling class comes along and you stay out of it.  Steal oil?  I pay twice for it—taxes for the military-industrial complex and at the pump, moron.  Who did you ever defend my freedom from?  You’re just a stooge of imperialists—a flunky.

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By P. T., February 27, 2008 at 2:03 pm Link to this comment

The Zionist immigrants are indigenous.  lol

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By P. T., February 27, 2008 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

Lil,

Nobody here has advocated suicide bombing or Zyklon B gas.  You just make stuff up, fool.

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By lilmamzer, February 27, 2008 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

“This site in particular has a core group of people that must always blame the problems on the Jews.”

Some here see Jews as inherently evil individuals. Others here claim to like Jews but only if they don’t organize and claim for themselves what these <strike>Truth</strike>CrapDig bigots won’t ever deny to anyone BUT Jews - the right to self-determination and statehood. I’m referring to Zionism, of course, and the right of the Jewish nation to self-determination and peace and security in their own sovereign homeland. But all these <strike>Truth</strike>CrapDig bigots have a big Jew-problem, and that’s why they have found a comfortable home on the far-left of the political spectrum. The left, of course, is the modern wellspring of bigotry and intolerance, and it is this morbid fascination with the dark side of human nature that often compels me to read and post here. It’s good to know what the enemies of freedom are thinking and writing - useful as a reference point for fundamental values, especially in election years.

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By lilmamzer, February 27, 2008 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment

“Isrealis don’t need to climb into buses with their bombs.”

Of course not - the Israelis don’t seek out civilians to slaughter - that’s a “Palestinian” Arab specialty.
================

“Isrealis drop ‘em from US supplied jets. Or fire US made missiles from US supplied helicopters.”

More power to them. Without the IDF, the Arabs would have slaughtered millions of Israeli Jews generations ago. Most Americans think that would have been a bad thing. Then of course, there are people like you, RickinSF, who probably wouldn’t have lost any sleep had that happened.
================

“Their “targeted assasinations” (as opposed to “untargeted?”) get the “terrorist leader,” along with whoever is standing near.”

Absolutely. The “Palestinian” Arab terrorists hide themselves anmongst the civilians in Gaza for a purpose - “human shields” is what the tactic is called - and there is no justification for it. The Israelis, on the other hand, have a moral obligation to stop the “Palestinian” Arab terrorists from being able to seek out and kill Jewish women and children on busses, in school, on the street, and in cafes, even if there are regrettable deaths on the other side. It is solely the fault of the “Palestinian” Arab terrorists, and of course of those Gazanb Arabs who support them and do nothing to prevent them from hiding behind the skirts of their women.
================

“Hardly a PR coup.”

What an asinine comment.

Who the fuck cares about PR???? The Israelis understand all too well that saving innocent lives far outweighs what far-left fools like you think about PR value. You can take your PR and shove it up your San Francisco ass. Most thinking Americans would rather have their loved ones alive and safe than give a rat’s-ass what IndyMedia or HuffPost or TruthCrapDig thinks, and that’s why most Americans support Israel and her war against the “Palestinian” Arab terrorists.

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By lilmamzer, February 27, 2008 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

“Isrealis don’t need to climb into buses with their bombs.”</b>

Of course not - the Israelis don’t seek out civilians to slaughter - that’s a “Palestinian” Arab specialty.
================

<i>“Isrealis drop ‘em from US supplied jets. Or fire US made missiles from US supplied helicopters.”

More power to them. Without the IDF, the Arabs would have slaughtered millions of Israeli Jews generations ago. Most Americans think that would have been a bad thing. Then of course, there are people like you, RickinSF, who probably wouldn’t have lost any sleep had that happened.
================


“Their “targeted assasinations” (as opposed to “untargeted?”) get the “terrorist leader,” along with whoever is standing near.”

Absolutley. The “Palestinian” Arab terrorists hide themselves anmongst the civilians in Gaza for a purpose - “human shields” is what the tactic is called - and there is no justification for it. The Israelis, on the other hand, have a moral obligation to stop the “Palestinian” Arab terrorists from being able to seek out and kill Jewish women and children on busses, in school, on the street, and in cafes, even if there are regrettable deaths on the other side. It is solely the fault of the “Palestinian” Arab terrorists, and of course of those Gazanb Arabs who support them and do nothing to prevent them from hiding behind the skirts of their women.
================

“Hardly a PR coup. “

What an asinine comment.

Who the fuck cares about PR???? The Israelis understand all too well that saving innocent lives far outweighs what far-left fools like you think about PR value. You can take your PR and shove it up your San Francisco ass. Most thinking Americans would rather have their loved ones alive and safe than give a rat’s-ass what IndyMedia or HuffPost or <strike>Truth</strike>CrapDig thinks, and that’s why most Americans support Israel and her war against the “Palestinian” Arab terrorists.

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By lilmamzer, February 27, 2008 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment

“I don’t see you practicing what you preach and killing Arabs to steal oil, chickenhawk.”

Where does Gomerspile preach about killing Arabs and stealing oil?

He doesn’t.

You just make shit up and think that makes a good debating point?

Catch a clue - it makes you look like an impotent fool.

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By lilmamzer, February 27, 2008 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

By P. T., February 26 at 4:12 pm #
(651 comments total)

Re: Re: If Kosovo, Why Not Palestine?
For immigrant <strike>Zionist</strike> Arab terrorists to call the indigenous Jewish (AKA Palestinian) people <strike>under occupation terrorists</strike> “occupiers” is a <strike>farce</strike> crime.

There. Fixed that for ya.

The local Arabs have never had any legal or other rights to deny the Jews immigration to Israel. Generations after independence was declared from British rule, it is the native Jews, the real indiginous people of the land, who are the victims of a genocidal Arab war.

That’s not opinion. That’s fact.

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By P. T., February 27, 2008 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

I don’t see you practicing what you preach and killing Arabs to steal oil, chickenhawk.

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By RickinSF, February 27, 2008 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

Isrealis don’t need to climb into buses with their bombs.
Isrealis drop ‘em from US supplied jets. Or fire US made missiles from US supplied helicopters.
Their “targeted assasinations” (as opposed to “untargeted?”) get the “terrorist leader,” along with whoever is standing near. Hardly a PR coup.

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By Steven, February 27, 2008 at 5:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“When we declared our independence in 1776 I don’t recall our requesting anyone’s permission.”

No, but we did all we could to get recognized internationally, especially by England’s enemies such as the French. & without the French it would have been doubtful if we could have won.

Also, a contributing factor to the lose of the Confederacy during the Civil War was that they were unable to get recognized by any foreign government & thus couldn’t get aid, be it monetary, economic, military, humanitarian, etc.

Without international recgonition it is a lot harder to make a declaration of independence meaningful.

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By Douglas Chalmers, February 27, 2008 at 2:53 am Link to this comment

Perhaps the correction should be that you are posing as a “Jew/Israeli citizen” of as repulsive a demeanor as possible in order to incite people to hate Jews, uhh?

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By P. T., February 26, 2008 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

For immigrant Zionist terrorists to call the indigenous Palestinian people under occupation terrorists is farce.

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By lilmamzer, February 26, 2008 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

I posted this above with the bolded mis-spelling: “What’s truly amusing is that whenever I post opinions about Israel, Jews, or Zionists, I am immediately accused of being either a Jew or an Israeli citizen (key word being “accused”, as if being wither is a crime).”

The correct word should read either.

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By lilmamzer, February 26, 2008 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

By Gomerspile, February 26 at 10:33 am

Thank you for your post, but defending the Jews on this site could get you sent to your room.

No kidding - the room they’d like to send me has a hole in the ceiling where they drop the Zyklon B gas pellets.

What’s truly amusing is that whenever I post opinions about Israel, Jews, or Zionists, I am immediately accused of being either a Jew or an Israeli citizen (key word being “accused”, as if being wither is a crime).

It never seems to occur to Cyrena, Chalmers, non credible, and the rest of the Aryan Nations crowd that there are some non-Jews who actually believe that the argument for self-determination for the Jews and the expression of Jewish nationalism in their homeland actually has merit.

Kinda blows their little minds.

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By lilmamzer, February 26, 2008 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

The better question is: “Why Palestine?”

After all, those so-called “Palestinian” Arabs are ethnically either Egyptian, Hashemite, Lebanese, Syrian, Arabian, or a mix of these Arab ethnicities, which already have independent nation-states.

But the most obvious reason is that there exists no non-extremist, non-violent, and non-genocidal “Palestinian” Arab polity capable of establishing even the bare minimum rule of law (and by that I don’t mean sharia) and required for true statehood at this point in time.

A terror-state of “Palestine” committed in principle and deed to eliminating its Jewish neighbor is hardly a qualification for admission to the world’s community of nations.

Both Hamas and the so-called PA are terrorist entities. One terror entity is avowedly Jihadist in nature and conducts its killing enterprise from that basis, and the other entity changes stripes from Arab-nationalist-secular to Islamist depending on its perception of political expedience in relation to its genocidal objectives. It’s bad enough they exercise considerable autonomy as things currently stand. The world would be a much more dangerous place with one more Taliban-like terror haven. That is why Kosovo merits serious consideration for statehood now, and “Palestine” does not.

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By lilmamzer, February 26, 2008 at 4:47 am Link to this comment

Chalmers writes:

Quote Saeb Erekat: “What we want is independence .....through an Israeli withdrawal”

Yes, true, but he isn’t being entirely honest. What he and the majority of “Palestinian” Arabs want is a withdrawal of Israel to the sea. That is why in “Palestinian” Arab textbooks and on “official” “Palestinian” Arab documents, Israel never appears on maps - the mythical “Palestinian Arab” country, which never existed in fact in all of recorded history, is shown in place of Israel.

Well, the sovereign Jewish nation of Israel has exercised their right to self-determination and opted out of the planned (and oft-attempted) Arab genocide. So the PA spokesliar Erekat can shove it up his fat Arab ass. I hear he had a lot of practice with ass-shoving whilst he was Arafat’s boy-toy.

And if accuracy and veracity meant anything to you, Chalmers, you would know that a real “Palstinian” is a Jew from Israel. The local so-called “Palestinian” Arabs, who have borrowed that name from the Jews, are in fact Egyptians, Hashemites, Jordanians, Arabians, and a mix of other regional Arab ethnicities. And those ethnicities have already established their sovereign nation-states in the region. How greedy of these “Palestinian” Arabs to want to practice genocide on the region’s only Jewish state. But such is the state of Arab regional politics and moralities.

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By lilmamzer, February 26, 2008 at 4:30 am Link to this comment

Chalmers writes: ” Palestinians <strike>always</strike> never had a country.”

There. Fixed that for ya.

FYI - “Palestine” is now and always has been the homeland of the Jewish nation, the name being that given by the Romans who occupied the Jewish kingdom in Israel a couple of thousand years ago in a failed attempt to remove the essential Jewish character and ownership of the land. The Romans failed and so have you, Chalmers, in the same way. Hostile outsiders can never change historical fact and the destiny of an entire nation, no matter how flawed and twisted their vision may be.
========================

Chalmers writes: ” The Palestinians are losing through Israeli settlement under completely opposite circumstances. They are the victims of a forced disenfranchisement and an influx of foreign European Jews.”

The largest influx of Jews to Israel was from Arab and Islamic countries, Chalmers, and those Jews were themselves disenfranchised, dispossessed actually, harrassed and expelled, for no reason other than daring to exist as Jews. And today the majority of Israeli Jews are not European in recent origin but from Islamic countries. Don’t worry - I never expect you to let facts get in the way of your nonsense posts.

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By Douglas Chalmers, February 26, 2008 at 4:05 am Link to this comment

Quote Saeb Erekat: “What we want is independence .....through an Israeli withdrawal”

Palestinians always had a country. Its not so similar to Kosovo which the Serbs had a claim to but are losing through a history of (peaceful) Albanian settlement from acroos the border.

The Palestinians are losing through Israeli settlement under completely opposite circumstances. They are the victims of a forced disenfranchisement and an influx of foreign European Jews.

Suggesting that one is an inspiration for the other is so typical of the naivete and ignorance of those in the West - who can’t even solve their own minor problems.

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By P. T., February 25, 2008 at 6:52 pm Link to this comment

Yep, it’s called blaming the victim.

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By P. T., February 25, 2008 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

Maybe it just doesn’t make any difference, moron.

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By P. T., February 24, 2008 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment

Who is the aggressor is obvious of course—as obvious as who is the indigenous people and who is the occupier.  International law is just as clear—restated as recently as the World Court decision on the wall.  The problem is not international law but rather the failure to follow it, without sanctions.

Actually, the Palestinians did recognize Israel and got nothing— because Zionism is expansionist and has been from the beginning.  (The Lebanese only got Israel out by driving it out.)  It is Israel that has failed to recognize Palestine and seeks to destroy it.

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By cyrena, February 24, 2008 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment

Non Credo, thanks ever so much for the comments and particularly the link. All are extremely helpful to my own current work.

In the interest of continuing the comparison to Palestine, at least based on the principles of international law, I can add the response that I received from Prof. Richard Falk, to an inquiry of my own.

Specifically, I was questioning why Serbia, Spain, Greece, and a few other mostly European nations were denouncing Kosovo’s declaration of Independence as illegal, or in violation of International Law.

Yes, I DID acknowledge the cultural/historical significance of the territory to Serbia, and so I’m able to see that side of the argument from the Serbian perspective. I could not, however, understand how this was a violation of International Law.

In a very brief response, (because I’ll have an opportunity to talk more with him about it later) Prof. Falk responded in part, with this:

“The basic issue involves whether Kosovo is entitled
to establish a separate state given the prior SC Res 1244, and the idea that the right of self-determination is not allowed where the result is to shatter an existing state.”


So, for further study on the Kosovo independence – specifically, we have to look closer at the UN Resolution 1244.

But, in comparing this to Palestine, I would agree with you in that in at least one respect, there IS more justification for the Palestinians, since they are not, and never have been, part of an established or recognized sovereign state.

Rather, Palestine was a territory under British protectorate mandate until a portion of that territory was GIVEN to the survivors of the European Holocaust, so that the Zionists could then CREATE their own State from that territory, after ethnically cleansing it of the prior occupants, the Arab Palestinians.

So in effect, there is no ‘state’ that would be shattered, as a result of Palestine declaring their Independence from Israel’s occupation. It would meant though,(I think) that Palestine would have to establish a state of their own, and then be recognized as such, by the international community. (the REAL international community, not just the West).

Meantime, that brings us back to the larger can of worms…on WHAT space can this be accomplished? Otherwise, it’s just a “State” in a virtual or existential concept, because there is no space/territory attached.

Israel still won’t come up with a Constitution that provides definite boundaries that can be recognized by the rest of the world, based on geographic coordinates. And, more and more, the West Bank at least, has developed a PERMANENT infrastructure that makes it an extension of the state of Israel.

So, I don’t know how it would be accomplished, but it’s worth more thinking.

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By Richard Friedman, February 24, 2008 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

I decline to play “who’s the aggressor,” because it’s pointless.  The same for playing who has “international law” on its side.  Arguing “legalities” is a dead end and will solve nothing.  If these foolish mind games were constructive, the Middle East would be a peaceful oasis by now.

Perhaps the Gazans are not foolish enough to declare independence.  It’s clear, however, they are not smart enough to have avoided years of self-destructive behavior.  They should try something new instead of endlessly repeating the same mistakes.  A good place to start would be to ditch the politicians that have led them nowhere but dependence on a state they won’t recognize and have no chance of destroying.

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By P. T., February 24, 2008 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

As I already pointed out, as long as Israel maintains an occupation, it has duties to the population under international law.

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By P. T., February 24, 2008 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment

Lil,

Israel is the aggressor, fool.

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By lilmamzer, February 24, 2008 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment

Even the Gazan Arabs understand that to declare “independence” and statehood would be idiotic. They can’t even govern themselves on a local level. And as they continue their acts of war against the citizens of sovereign Israel, there would be no reason Israel wouldn’t be within her rights to utterly detroy a sovereign aggressor nation.

The moronic Gazans understand this. The question is, why can’t you?

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By ElkoJohn, February 24, 2008 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

10-4,
I admire A.Lincoln, but he should have let the South secede. Slavery would have died without a violent war & Ron Paul wouldn’t have to dismantle a Federal Government that doesn’t believe in our Constitution, which only gives 20-powers to the Congress. Also, the world wouldn’t be ruled by the neoCons and the big-money profiteers from their command center in DC.

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By Richard Friedman, February 24, 2008 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment

Gaza could be an independent state and still at war with Israel.  I assume that would be the case until some kind of negotiation changed that state of affairs.  So long as the state of war persisted, it would be folly for Israel to relinquire airspace or any other control over what happens in Gaza.

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By Paolo, February 24, 2008 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

If the Palestinians were given instantaneous, automatic citizenship in Israel [the same remarkable privilege granted to Jews under the Law of Return], and were allowed to vote, the result would be a Palestinian majority with a significant Jewish minority.

You can have a Jewish State, or you can have a democracy—but you can’t have both (says David Friedman, in a rare moment of clarity). The “Jewish State” remains so because the Palestinians, who had the audacity to live there before the Zionists arrived, are disenfranchised.

I think both groups can be reasonable and live together in the same country. They can’t at this moment because the US insists on meddling in the Middle East and imposing its will.

Zionism has never lacked Chutzpah. Basically, what Zionism has always boiled down to is: we are going to invade a country, take it over, and run it as an ethnic/religious state. The people who already live there? Screw ‘em! We’re taking over!

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By P. T., February 24, 2008 at 10:24 am Link to this comment

As a matter of international law, Israel would only shed responsibility for Gaza’s residents if it ended the occupation, including control of Gaza’s airspace and coastal waters.  However, Israel ingores international law all the time.

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By Richard Friedman, February 24, 2008 at 8:31 am Link to this comment

When we declared our independence in 1776 I don’t recall our requesting anyone’s permission.  Of course, King George did not take it sitting down and we had to show him we meant it.

I don’t think the Gazans need our permission or anyone’s for declaring independence.  They can just do it.  The same goes for the West Bank.

Who knows, it might just advance the peace process.  In any event, once independence is declared Israel would have no obligation to continue to supply the Gazas with anything whatever.  Maybe that’s why they are reluctant to really be a state.

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By Paolo, February 24, 2008 at 6:54 am Link to this comment

I’m all for regions declaring independence from oppressive central governments. I think New Hampshire should go next. (Google “Free State Project” for more information).

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By lilmamzer, February 23, 2008 at 8:07 pm Link to this comment

“acrimony, angst and a inexhaustable supply of manipulating deceit - all very carefully packaged and all at our immense expense”

More meaningless babble from the Jew-fixated resident bigot.

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By lilmamzer, February 23, 2008 at 8:06 pm Link to this comment

“The independence of Palestine is way overdue!”

“Palestinian” Arabs cannot even control themselves, and have not demonstrated anything close to the minimal requirements for statehood.

“Palestine” may be a trendy catchphrase for the chic-boutique leftist crowd in the same way that Che makes a nice graphic for t-shirts, but in the real world there is no way “Palestine” merits anything close to statehood.

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By randyha, February 23, 2008 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

I agree that there are a lot of differences between the situation in Kosovo and the one in Palestine, however, it took the US just 24 hours to recognize Kosovo an example of the double standard the US practises towards Israel and its long occupation of Palestinian territories. The independence of Palestine is way overdue!

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By weather, February 23, 2008 at 7:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

acrimony, angst and a inexhaustable supply of manipulating deceit - all very carefully packaged and all at our immense expense.

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