Excellent commentary Canadian Oak, and I’m sure that I am not the only one who appreciates it. Many on this forum can testify to the same.

I have been following Dahr Jamail’s report for quite some time now. I’ve even been fortunate enough to have him at appearances in my own community, (just north of you) and if the reality that he reports from the fronts cannot be found in the MSM, we of course know why. (the explanation above, about the green-light from the Oval Office for the Falluja Massacre) is the reason. BTW, Dahr’s documentary, “Caught in the Crossfire” also makes this come to real life, though it’s not likely to be made known on
MSN either. So, I’m just throwing that out there, for those in need of ‘visual aides’ to what he reports.

Thanks for bringing this info to the forum.

By Maani, January 29 at 9:37 pm #
(308 comments total)
Re: Re:
Cyrena:
In my brief time here (LOL), I have noticed that Doug is actually quite rational about MOST things (though you seem to disagree with him about many of them...) - with the exception of Israel, with which he clearly has a (possibly obsessive and unhealthy) fixation.
I wonder what THAT’s about...?
My guess on the Israel fixation is that a lot of folks have it, only because so much evil has been perpetrated against America, on behalf of Israel, and it’s next to impossible not to be aware of their gross crimes against humanity.

So, that’s probably the reason for Chalmer’s obsessive fixation on Israel. I couldn’t disagree with him on that, even if I wanted to, since I’m not into disagreement just for the sake of disagreement.

But, we agree on little else, because he has an unhealthy and obsessive fixation on just about EVERYTHING, regardless of whether or not it has any rational basis, or connection to what the discussion is generally about. He’s neurotic, and so that makes it difficult to find anything other than the very occasional morsel of logic, or rationale.

That’s not to say that he NEVER comes up with any, because that wouldn’t be true either. It’s just that it’s so rare, that one is inclined to miss it, just because they get used to just bypassing the stuff, because it’s generally just a bunch of irrelevant drivel, totally lacking in any objectivity. And, most political or socio-political issues require at least a measure of objectivity.

Cyrena:
In my brief time here (LOL), I have noticed that Doug is actually quite rational about MOST things (though you seem to disagree with him about many of them...) - with the exception of Israel, with which he clearly has a (possibly obsessive and unhealthy) fixation.
I wonder what THAT’s about...?
My guess on the Israel fixation is that a lot of folks have it, only because so much evil has been perpetrated against America, on behalf of Israel, and it’s next to impossible not to be aware of their gross crimes against humanity.

So, that’s probably the reason for Chalmer’s obsessive fixation on Israel. I couldn’t disagree with him on that, even if I wanted to, since I’m not into disagreement just for the sake of disagreement.

But, we agree on little else, because he has an unhealthy and obsessive fixation on just about EVERYTHING, regardless of whether or not it has any rational basis, or connection to what the discussion is generally about. He’s neurotic, and so that makes it difficult to find anything other than the very occasional morsel of logic, or rationale.

That’s not to say that he NEVER comes up with any, because that wouldn’t be true either. It’s just that it’s so rare, that one is inclined to miss it, just because they get used to just bypassing the stuff, because it’s generally just a bunch of irrelevant drivel, totally lacking in any objectivity. And, most political or socio-political issues require at least a measure of objectivity.

But then, that’s the same reason why nobody pays any attention to lilmamzer either, at least not after a time. It’s like trying to carry on a conversation with a seriously delusional schizophrenic or advance staged Alzheimer’s patient. Rarely, (if ever) are they actually in the ‘real world’ and then it’s fleeting.

I’m not saying these people are necessarily crazy, because neurotics can be intelligent. It’s just that it gets wasted in their psychotic behaviors.

Chalmer’s isn’t nearly as bad as lil mamzer though. I’ll give him that much, even if it is a backhanded sort of compliment.

In response to post By lilmamzer, January 29 at 12:28 pm #

Somehow the reply didn’t get posted under he/she/its comment.

#By Ostrogoth, January 29 : “...lilmamzer… Again, the anti-Semitic smear against those who oppose racism and ethnic cleansing. This guy has no decency, pure and simple...”

#By PatrickHenry, January 29: “...most of us are not part of the “overwhelming majority” you speak of that that support Israel (I find very few) and it’s foreign policy (even fewer) you state it is impossible to separate Israel from zionism...”

#By lilmamzer, January 29: “… an inner world reduced to simplistic extremes of Good and Evil...”

The main problem is not the American Jewish Committee (AJC) which is a normal organization representing an ethnic minority, the Jews. http://www.ajc.org/

It is the unofficial front for the militarist-expansionist Israeli state known as the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) which is usurping Americans good will to extort as much cold hard cash and diplomatic priveleges and political promises and military support as it possibly can. http://www.aipac.org/

An examination of their websites clearly indicates that one (the AJC) is a community organization supporting the welfare of American Jews whilst the other (AIPAC) is a radical Zionist political organization promoting the welfare of the Israeli state regardless of the expense to the people of the USA and regardless of its support for terrorist activities and the persecution of minorities and its neighbours and threats of the use of nuclear WMD’s in the region.

Furthermore, “Cyrena”, equating Zionism with racism, describing it as a threat to world peace, as an enemy of human rights and human dignity, and then urges its elimination, is blatantly anti-Semitic.
There can be no Israel without Zionism, and there can be self-determination for Jews without Israel.
To deny Jews this basic right, “Cyrena”, makes a mockery of everything you claim to stand for.
No need for the quotes around my name lil bastard. Here’s the deal. First, you misquoted me, because I actually equated Zionism with Nazism, since I’ve found many of the same ‘components’ in the furtherance of that particular ideology. So yes, racism is certainly one of them, but not the only one.

I don’t much give a shit what your ‘definition’ of Zionism is, since I don’t have any problem with any people or nation exercising there right to ‘self-determination’ except of course Israel does it at the expense of the rest of the world, but specifically at the expense of perpetrating terror and the grotesque violation of the human rights of the Palestinians, and anybody else who might dare to attempt to live as equal humans.

So no lil bastard, I’m not trying to deny the Jews a damn thing other than the ‘right’ they’ve taken for themselves, to perpetrate genocide and ethnic cleansing against another group of people. In short, it’s Nazism full blown. You DO remember when the Nazis perpetrated this same ideology against the Jews…right?

Well, Israel has practiced the same terror, calling it Zionism instead of Nazism. In principle AND it practice, it’s exactly the same thing, except of course Israel has been at it for a much longer time.

So, what did the world finally decide to do about Hitler and his Nazism. Humm...give that some thought.

Mass murders are mass murders lil bastard. It doesn’t matter to me what they call themselves, or where they operate from. Evil is evil, and it needs to be wiped out.

Cyrena:

In my brief time here (LOL), I have noticed that Doug is actually quite rational about MOST things (though you seem to disagree with him about many of them...) - with the exception of Israel, with which he clearly has a (possibly obsessive and unhealthy) fixation.

I wonder what THAT’s about...?

Peace.

Patrick Henry,

I’m confused. Who is this referencing? Chalmers? Who suggested that they admired Ariel Sharon, the mass murderer? Maybe I missed something. I’ll keep looking down the thread.

Chalmers...rational? Yeah, I missed something....

Tony Wicher no president could start a war without a less than truthfull media remember WMD?Is it my so called paranoia that the mainstream media always seem to cast Israel in a favourable light,while everything about Islam is bad?

Furthermore, “Cyrena”, equating Zionism with racism, describing it as a threat to world peace, as an enemy of human rights and human dignity, and then urges its elimination, is blatantly anti-Semitic. -lilmamzer, January 29 at 4:39 am

Again, the anti-Semitic smear against those who oppose racism and ethnic cleansing. This guy has no decency, pure and simple.

We shouldn’t tolerate lilmamzer’s smears and support for ethnic cleansing of Palestinians any more than we would tolerate someone coming on this forum calling for the enslavement of blacks, or the persecution of Jews. Defending free speech is fine but defending the rights of ethnic cleansers is where we should draw the line. Let’s not forget that Zionists have turned the West Bank and Gaza into massive ghettos for the purpose of persecuting Palestinians. Our tax dollars at work. All thanks to people like lilmamzer and those of us who let them get away with murder.

“As long as there are Jews living on God’s great Earth, Chalmers, they will live and work and pray for the safety and security and prosperity of their eternal homeland of Israel”.

You and your fellow Israelis are free to go fuck yourselves without my tax dollars.  When the unguided rockets of one of your victims comes crashing down on your head go to China or Turkey or another nation to whine for money and weapons.

I think Chalmers is very rational.

As with alot of posters here at Truthdig we have our individual views, opinions and ideals that we bounce off each other in an attempt to get anothers perspective, like them or not.  Sometimes we are lucky enough to get yours, which makes us feel so much better about ourselves.

Because most of us are not part of the “overwhelming majority” you speak of that that support Israel (I find very few) and it’s foreign policy (even fewer) you state it is impossible to separate Israel from zionism, you should ask some of the million non jewish Israelis what they think, after all Israel is a democracy right?

As for you admitting your admiration for Ariel Sharon, a proven mass murderer and deserving war crimes nominee, you are no better than David Duke and his followers.

I hope to campaign with whoever becomes the mainstream candidate of choice from both parties to cut this albatross called Israel from our budget, curtail any outsourced contracts involving personal information (Amdocs, Infosys) and proscecute all “loyal Americans” who willingly pass classified information to that country.  Dual nationals should not be tolerated in our government from any country and all lobbies representing foreign nations should have to register as such - no exceptions -.

Maani writes:

“What else, exactly, would you have me do?  Move to Israel and protest the government directly?  Take up arms and become part of the problem? ”

Chalmers is fixated and obsessed; he appears trapped in his own personal Passion Play, an inner world reduced to simplistic extremes of Good and Evil, wherein the Jews (read: Zionists) represent the Evil, and Chalmers, as the lone voice of reason, representing the Good. His posts are his calls to action, his own spreading of the gospel (according to Chalmers, anyway).

I find the Chalmers phenomenon morbidly fascinating. I’ve just finished Ian McEwan’s “Enduring Love” (a great read, by the way), wherein the protagonanist’s world has been turned upside down by a stalker exhibiting the symptoms of de Clerambault’s Syndrome. This is a rare disorder in which a person holds a delusional belief that another person, usually of a higher social status, is in love with him or her, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

The key is delusional belief. In Chalmer’s world, Zionist control everything, and, simultaneously and quite illogically, don’t, but are desperately trying to. Look back and see his posts about Zionist attempts at world domination, and other such nonsense.

So, Maani, don’t take it so personally. Chalmers lashes out at you for expressing rational and reasoned points of views, which directly threaten his deluded world view, upon which he has staked his sense of self.

Doug:

Why would my questioning of your hyperbole about “nuclear war” be “pathetically weak??  It is merely an observation that you hurt your own “cause” by resorting to such extreme language: at the risk of REALLY pissing you off (LOL), it is of a piece with Bush’s comment about “the smoking gun” being “a mushroom cloud.”

You then say, “You call yourself a leftwing evangelist minister but, when it comes time for action, you are as hopeless as the rest. Merely all talk! I am disgusted with you...”

First, I’m not sure what my vocation has to do with all of this, but I think my position on the overall matter has been stated in my last couple of posts.

And at the risk of being seen to agree with Lilmanzer (LOL), what “action” are you referring to?  I oppose AIPAC’s influence on U.S. foreign policy toward Israel, and state so openly.  And I oppose the way in which the Israeli government has generally handled the Palestinian issue, and state this openly as well.  I speak with my political reps about the issue (not just write letters, but SPEAK to, since I know all but Clinton personally), so they are aware of my position as well.

What else, exactly, would you have me do?  Move to Israel and protest the government directly?  Take up arms and become part of the problem?

I’m not sure you have thought this out beyond your emotional investment in the issue.

You are, of course, entitled to be “disgusted” with me if you like.  But all you are doing is alienating allies; “cutting off your nose to spite your face.” And that is NOT the way to win converts to your cause, or even get people to step back and listen to what you have to say, and perhaps at least modify theit own positions.

Peace.

Peace.

Chalmers writes:

“You call yourself a leftwing evangelist minister but, when it comes time for action, you are as hopeless as the rest. Merely all talk! I am disgusted with you...... ”

And what is your “action plan”, Chalmers? Are you going to strap on a bomb vest and take out some Zionist schoolchildren on a bus in Israel? How about helping Hamas lob a few thousand more missiles at the homes of Ethiopian Jewish immigrants’ homes and schools in Sderot, Israel? That will teach those nasty Zionists a lesson, won’t it, Chalmers?

Will you spray automatic weapons fire at some Zionists on the streets of the United States?

Will you stalk Jews where they live, work, play, and organize?

What, exactly, are you going to do to combat the supposed menace you are so preoccupied with?

As long as there are Jews living on God’s great Earth, Chalmers, they will live and work and pray for the safety and security and prosperity of their eternal homeland of Israel.

What are you going to do about that?

You talk so tough to Maani here but you are a pussy, aren’t you?

Scared by Jews who dare to organize for their common defense, welfare, and destiny? They frighten you to your very core, don’t they? It shows with every hysterical, paranoid, and delusional post you make about the “Zionists seeking world domination”, as you have so often put it.

What are you going to do about them? ‘Cuz posting cut-and-paste wire service stories about AIPAC at TruthCrapDig just doesn’t cut it, Chalmers. That’s just LAME.

Chalmers lives in a scary inner world where organized Jews control the affairs of the world.

Oh well...........

The AIPAC affair: Can the pro-Israel lobby recover?

As the American Israel Public Affairs Committee holds its annual policy conference this month, it can point with satisfaction to one of the closest relationships ever between the U.S. administration and the government of Israel.

The closer Israel and Washington have grown on policy issues, the more vociferous the charges of Israel’s critics that the Jewish state and its American Jewish supporters exercise too much influence over U.S. decision-making.

*
FBI charges Pentagon analyst in AIPAC affair

WASHINGTON - Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin was formally charged Wednesday with passing classified military information about Iraq to two individuals, believed to be former officials of the pro-Israel lobby group AIPAC........

*
FBI probe into AIPAC-related scandal - more Qs than As

WASHINGTON - More than a week after a Pentagon official was charged with passing secret information to two employees of Washington’s pro-Israel lobby, Jewish communal leaders are still puzzled about the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s probe into the scandal........

*
Israeli linked to AIPAC probe to leave post

WASHINGTON - Naor Gilon, the head of the political department at the Israeli Embassy in Washington, whose name has been linked to the Pentagon analyst charged with passing classified information to unauthorized personnel, will leave his post during the summer........

*
Analysis / AIPAC institutes its own `disengagement plan’

AIPAC officials would like to see the event as an unreserved show of support for the lobby and an indication that the crisis over the organization is now over. To this end, AIPAC had to institute its own kind of “disengagement plan” this week........ By the time Rice steps onto the podium, they hope, AIPAC will have distanced itself from the affair..........

Was this a case of an Israeli mole in the Pentagon, a lobby that overstepped its authority, or a one-time act in which the lobby’s officials transferred forbidden information to Israeli representatives........

“Methinks thou dost protest too much.” - #By Maani, January 29: “As for “nuclear war,” it pains me to say that this ranks up there with some of the hyperbole of which you occasionally accuse others...”

That is pathetically weak, Maani. Perhaps if you got up off yo’ass you wouldn’t be in so much pain, uhh!

You call yourself a leftwing evangelist minister but, when it comes time for action, you are as hopeless as the rest. Merely all talk! I am disgusted with you......

Check my following post for new developments in the AIPAC scandal.........

Doug:

“Yes, it is a disappointment, Maani, and, as I first mentioned the “Israel” word, I guess I should be to blame. Still, the comments have gone to three pages now and that is what tends to happen in the end on most blogs.  They either die a natural death or become hopelessly side-tracked, uhh. That belies the fact, though, that there is an agenda concerning Israel which permeates and distorts American politics and also the politics of its allies (nowadays merely all puppets). The fact that that could bring us to the end of human civilization through a nuclear war is alarmingly significant.”

You know that I am in general agreement with you on most things.  But, to paraphrase Shakespeare, “Methinks thou dost protest too much.”

While it is true that the U.S. policy toward Israel is a piece of its foreign policy puzzle - and perhaps even one that looms overly large in that policy - it is by no means the single, driving force in U.S. foreign policy.  To suggest that it is is simply silly.

As for “nuclear war,” it pains me to say that this ranks up there with some of the hyperbole of which you occasionally accuse others.

I repeat that both the State of Israel and the displaced Palestinians are not going away, and neither has the right to demand otherwise.  And I add to this that ALL THREE Dem candidates support the right of Israel to exist and ALL THREE have pandered to AIPAC, but ALL THREE also agree on a two-state solution, if such can be agreed to and implemented.  In this regard, there is no SIGNIFICANT difference in their policies toward Israel.

With all the wonderful brainpower, creativity and geopolitical savvy of many of those on Truthdig, I continue to be saddened that you all continue to be combative, adversarial and personally insulting rather than putting those minds to good use by suggesting solutions, or at least trying to find common ground from which to search for those solutions.

Peace.

(1.) AIPAC Achievements:- http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/default.asp

As America’s leading pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC works with both Democratic and Republican political leaders to enact public policy that strengthens the vital U.S.-Israel relationship. With the support of its members nationwide, AIPAC has worked with Congress and the Executive Branch on numerous critical initiatives—from securing vital foreign aid for Israel to stopping Iran’s illicit nuclear program.

Ya know something lilmamzer?

Barack Obama has been to Israel ONE time, and that was in 2006. (my guess...they wouldn’t let him in before that).

And, he was there to look at that dreaded Apartheid wall. I’m not sure what he had to say about it, since I don’t trust anything the Israelis print in their newspapers, just like I don’t trust this.

I’d rather hear it from Senator Obama himself.

(and, I like the guy).

By lilmamzer, January 29: “the lilmamzers”..... So how many of me are there..... And please, enlighten us - what is AIPAC really up to...”

This is for that twit from TruthDig who is so loose with the smilies, uhh.......

AIPAC - Pro-Israel Lobby working to strengthen relations between the United States and Israel through political and student activism in campaigns and elections, ...

For more than half a century, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee has worked to help make Israel more secure by ensuring that American support remains strong.  From a small pro-Israel public affairs boutique in the 1950s, AIPAC has grown into a 100,000-member national grassroots movement described by The New York Times as “the most important organization affecting America’s relationship with Israel........
http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/default.asp

American Israel Public Affairs Committee: Fortune magazine asked Congressmen to rank the “25 most powerful” lobbying organizations in DC. In 2005, the National Journal did the same. Both times, AIPAC came in 2nd - ahead of, for instance, the AFL-CIO and the National Rifle Association (NRA), but behind the AARP[4]. In 2001, it came in 4th on the Fortune list....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Af fairs_Committee

Quote Haaretz - The AIPAC affair: Can the pro-Israel lobby recover:

As the American Israel Public Affairs Committee holds its annual policy conference this month, it can point with satisfaction to one of the closest relationships ever between the U.S. administration and the government of Israel. This year has also seen the most perplexing development in the powerful pro-Israel lobby’s history: an FBI investigation into allegations that a Pentagon analyst passed classified information to Israel via AIPAC officials.

The closer Israel and Washington have grown on policy issues, the more vociferous the charges of Israel’s critics that the Jewish state and its American Jewish supporters exercise too much influence over U.S. decision-making....... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ArticleNews.jhtml?i temNo=576759&contrassID=13&subContrassID=1&sbSu bContrassID=0

Cont./.........

Dark Truths About the Israeli Occupation
By Daniel Levy, Washington Monthly. Posted January 29, 2008.

Can Israelis ever recover from the self-inflicted damage of becoming a brutal occupier?

Edith Zertal and Akiva Eldar end their exhaustive study of Israeli settlement policy with a poignant question: Is it possible, they wonder, that Israel’s 2005 withdrawal from the Gaza Strip will become a “first step in Israel’s journey of liberating itself from the enslavement to the territories that it occupied in 1967, and which have occupied [it] since then and have brought it to the verge of destruction”? Negotiations that have been set in motion by the Annapolis peace conference in November will likely provide a partial answer. Zertal, a leading Israeli historian, and Eldar, a chief political columnist and a former Washington correspondent for the Israeli daily Ha’aretz, have recently published Lords of the Land: The War for Israel’s Settlements in the Occupied Territories, 1967-2007. It is a detailed history of Israel’s nearly forty-year occupation of Gaza and the West Bank with a painful contention at its core. The occupation, say Zertal and Eldar, has wounded Israel’s very psyche, damaging both its sense of self and its moral standing in the world. “The prolonged military occupation and the Jewish settlements that are perpetuating it have toppled Israeli governments,” write the authors, “and have brought Israel’s democracy and its political culture to the brink of an abyss.”

The rest at the link…
http://www.alternet.org/audits/75213/

On the headline question: Can Israelis ever recover from the self-inflicted damage of becoming a brutal occupier?

When will Americans ask themselves the same question? Can we ever recover from the SELF-INFLICTED damage of allowing ourselves to become occupied by a fascist regime, while at the same time becoming a brutal imperialist occupier in the Middle East?

Something to think about?

For your information, a basic definition:

Zionism is the movement for Jewish self-determination and asserts the inherent and internationally-acknowledged right of Israel to exist as the national homeland of the Jewish people.

Furthermore, “Cyrena”, equating Zionism with racism, describing it as a threat to world peace, as an enemy of human rights and human dignity, and then urges its elimination, is blatantly anti-Semitic.

There can be no Israel without Zionism, and there can be self-determination for Jews without Israel.

To deny Jews this basic right, “Cyrena”, makes a mockery of everything you claim to stand for.

from interview in The Jerusalem Post 01/28/08:

“The outlines of any agreement would involve ensuring that Israel remains a Jewish state,” Obama told The Jerusalem Post and other members of the Jewish and Israeli press on a conference call. He reiterated his support for a two-state solution, but said, “We cannot move forward until there is some confidence that the Palestinians are able to provide the security apparatus that would prevent constant attacks against Israel from taking place.”

======================================

“As you see, the lilmamzers will endlessly try to distort that by accusations of victimization and spouting secondary Israeli-Palestinian issues in order to avoid discussing what AIPAC is really up to”

So how many of me are there, Chalmers?

And please, enlighten us - what is AIPAC really up to? And you know this with authority because you:

a) attend AIPAC meetings to gain first-hand knowledge

b) know AIPAC staffers personally and receive briefings from them?

c) are an authority, with real-world credentials, on the Jewish community in America

d) none of the above
=======================

Hmmmm, that’s a toughie, Chalmers.

We are so used to this from lilmamzer...everybody is an anti-semite, according to her/him/it.

Now of course the fact that Israel has been Nazi-like in their behavior, since their inception in 1948, (and before) has been acknowledged countless times, by the world, INCLUDING Jews. I’ve known many. Actually, I STILL know them. Because ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing...and anyone with eyes, ears and a functioning brain, can see that Israel has been practicing ethnic cleansing for 60 years.

What else can you call ethnic cleansing, besides ethnic cleansing? Genocide? Well, maybe that works too. Whatever you call it, it’s the exact same thing that the Nazis did to the Jews, so they’ve simply done the same thing to the Arabs, and even a retard could figure that out by now, because it’s been going on for so many years.

Meantime, lilmamzer has a really curious namesake, Someone (a linguistics professor) made mention of the fact that mamzer means bastard...I think it’s Hebrew.

No one knows why lil mamzer would refer to him/herself as a little bastard, but such as it seems to be.

So, maybe he/she is actually an Israeli outcast, since they have those complicated laws and such, regarding legitimacy as a Jew. If he or she is actually a little bastard, then that might be the deal, since previous comments lead us to believe that the little bastard actually lives in the US, and is apparently a US citizen, consistently shilling for Israel, and consistently defending all of their crimes against humanity.

It’s always been difficult for me to understand why such a lover of Israel, wouldn’t choose to live THERE, instead of here. Unless of course..their not allowed, because of being a little bastard.

It’s always been really odd.

“ “The last refuge of the incorrigible Jew-hater is the comaprison of Israel to Nazi Germany.” -lilmamzer, January 28 at 10:55 pm

First, the David Duke smear. Now, the anti-Semite smear to try to put me on the defensive. I don’t hate Jews, I hate ethnic cleansers regardless of race or religion. Do you hate gentiles? Or just Arabs? Stick to the arguments, good buddy supporter of war crimes. Zionists should stop acting like Nazi racists in the West Bank if they don’t want to be compared to Nazi racists. ”

Right on schedule.
=======================

“ OK, lilmamzer, keep repeating the big lie, that doesn’t make it true. According to you, Palestinians are occupying the West Bank, and are ethnically cleansing the poor little Zionist settlers and IDF, who are just defending themselves. Wow.”

Lather. Rinse. Repeat: Ostrogoth The Bigot

You make me smile, dude. 

#By Maani, January 28: “It is interesting how this thread - “Yes, We Can” - has turned into a referendum on Israel, and the candidates’ positions thereon, and what those positions signify....  It is also interesting, and sad, how most (but not all) of the people on both sides are talking past each other, over each other, around each other, etc..... The bottom line is that wrongs are being done in both directions...”

Yes, it is a disappointment, Maani, and, as I first mentioned the “Israel” word, I guess I should be to blame. Still, the comments have gone to three pages now and that is what tends to happen in the end on most blogs. They either die a natural death or become hopelessly side-tracked, uhh.

That belies the fact, though, that there is an agenda concerning Israel which permeates and distorts American politics and also the politics of its allies (nowadays merely all puppets). The fact that that could bring us to the end of human civilization through a nuclear war is alarmingly significant.

More to the point is what Obama and the rest are doing or saying about that. That was what I put forward to discuss in the broader context of this topic. As you see, the lilmamzers will endlessly try to distort that by accusations of victimization and spouting secondary Israeli-Palestinian issues in order to avoid discussing what AIPAC is really up to.

But, to answer your main point, Maani, I simply quote Diana’s comments about the original topic with which I agree:-

By Diana, January 28: “To quote Truthdig: “What we do know is that Obama has made Hillary Clinton’s contention that words don’t matter seem so very small and suspect.”

So, yes, Truthdig, continue to inflate Obama and deflate Hillary.  But don’t bury the truth (and context) in the process....”

You mean I’ll join you in your paranoid delusions.

“Well, the ‘Palestinian’ Arabs ARE, in fact, ‘occupying’ territory there, just as Jews are.” -lilmamzer, January 28 at 10:55 pm

OK, lilmamzer, keep repeating the big lie, that doesn’t make it true. According to you, Palestinians are occupying the West Bank, and are ethnically cleansing the poor little Zionist settlers and IDF, who are just defending themselves. Wow.

“The last refuge of the incorrigible Jew-hater is the comaprison of Israel to Nazi Germany.” -lilmamzer, January 28 at 10:55 pm

First, the David Duke smear. Now, the anti-Semite smear to try to put me on the defensive. I don’t hate Jews, I hate ethnic cleansers regardless of race or religion. Do you hate gentiles? Or just Arabs? Stick to the arguments, good buddy supporter of war crimes. Zionists should stop acting like Nazi racists in the West Bank if they don’t want to be compared to Nazi racists.

“Lilmamzer, you refuse to denounce Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestinians because you believe Zionists have a Biblical right to those lands.”

You can’t properly frame an argument by putting words in the mouth of your interlocutor, Ostrogoth. Besides being intellectually dishonest (I never said Zionists [Jews?] have a Biblical right to those lands, now, did I?), it’s transparently phony. Challenge me on what I actually write, not what you pretend I write.
====================

“Religious beliefs don’t justify aggression and ethnic cleansing.”

No they certainly don’t. So when are you going to use that fine moral argument against Hamas and the other “Palestinian” Arab terror groups who put that ethos into practice every day as a matter of policy? Hmmmm?
=====================

“ You deliberately invert the truth when you argue that Palestinians are occupying the West Bank and ethnically cleansing the Zionists there.”

Well, the “Palestinian” Arabs ARE, in fact, “occupying” territory there, just as Jews are. The Jews came to live there by LEGAL means. Can you say as much for those Arabs? You know nothing of the policy of the so-called Palestinian Authority regarding Jews living in Judea and Samaria. If you did, you would not have made such a specious statement, unless of course you know it to be demonstrably false (which it is) but prefer to ignore that reality - such is your hatred of Jewish presence in their own land.
========================

“Religious beliefs are no defense to war crimes, any more than the Nazis could justify persecution of Jews because they believed Jews were engaged in a secret conspiracy to rule Germany.”

The last refuge of the incorrigible Jew-hater is the comaprison of Israel to Nazi Germany. And there you have it.

“ Lilmamzer, you refuse to denounce Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestinians because you believe Zionists have a Biblical right to those lands.”

You can’t properly frame an argument by putting words in the mouth of your interlocutor, Ostrogoth. Besides being intellectually dishonest (I never said Zionists [Jews?] have a Biblical right to those lands, now, did I?), it’s transparently phony. Challenge me on what I actually write, not what you pretend I write.
====================

“Religious beliefs don’t justify aggression and ethnic cleansing.”

No they certainly don’t. So when are you going to use that fine moral argument against Hamas and the other “Palestinian” Arab terror groups who put that ethos into practice every day as a matter of policy? Hmmmm?
=====================

“ You deliberately invert the truth when you argue that Palestinians are occupying the West Bank and ethnically cleansing the Zionists there."</b>

<i>"Religious beliefs are no defense to war crimes, any more than the Nazis could justify persecution of Jews because they believed Jews were engaged in a secret conspiracy to rule Germany.”

The last refuge of the incorrigible Jew-hater is the comaprison of Israel to Nazi Germany. And there you have it.

“This person calls EVERYBODY a bigot”

Everybody? Hardly. Only those for whom the term is warranted. You, Cyrena, are so unable to control your bombast and hyperbole that that the words you post have lost most of their meaning. You know I’m not the first nor will I be the last to tell you this. Unfortunately, TruthCrapDig has a core group of actual bigots. If you are unwilling or unable to see that, well, shame on you.

By the way, Obama has done a nice job of articulating and promoting the essence of Zionism when he defends the right of Israel to remain free and sovereign as the national homeland of the Jewish people (and that IS what Zionism is all about, despite what you and others may say).

So it gives me no small pleasure to watch you and your bigoted bobbleheads rail about Zionism and still support Obama.

Oh, the delicious irony. You should see the smile on my face right now. A million-dollar smile, I’m tellin ya.

Diana,

There’s definitely something to be said for what Hillary said, about putting one foot in front of the other, day after day.

OH YES!! Amen to that. I can say that, because it has become one HELL of an effort, for far, far, too many of us, when in fact it shouldn’t be that damn hard.

So guess what? THOSE are JUST WORDS, unless one can really and truly do it. And, it gets more and more difficult, every single solitary day that we try. So many folks have given up. They simply cannot do it any more.

So, is there anything in these WORDS from Hillary, (since we pretty much ALREADY KNOW the difficulties of this putting one foot in front of the other every day) that can convince US that SHE can DO something, (besides just saying this shit that we already live right now) to make us believe that she can do something to make that a bit easier, or at least more efficient, or more productive?

I ask because both of you are correct in that ‘words’ don’t mean much without any action. Where is hers? I keep asking that, but nobody has been able to point to a single thing that tells me anything she’s done, that would allow me to think that this effort may produce something, because I don’t mind putting that one foot in front of the other, and I’m generally pretty grateful that I can. BUT…where the hell am I gonna wind up in that effort? Now I’m doing the one foot in front of the other, because it’s the only way I can get from point A to point B. I can no longer afford a motor vehicle or the gas to fuel it.
So, I’m down to counting on putting that one foot in front of the other. Can Hillary lead me to someplace productive in that effort, or is it just WORDS?

Here again, my eyes and ears are wide open, for anything positive that she might be able to put forth, or otherwise inspire me with. I’ll be sure to stay that way…eyes and ears wide open, and putting these feet in front of each other. Let me know when she says or does something like what I’ve described here..like where she’s going to lead in that effort.

And, while we’re keeping things truthful, and in context, maybe you can contribute. I don’t see that Truthdig (maybe the posters, but not the editors) are ‘deflating’ or ‘inflating’ anybody. They are posting political news and opinion. The candidates inflate or deflate THEMSELVES, depending on what they SAY and what they DO. The media puts that out there, and the rest of us can decide. So, a critical observer can and should decide these things on their own, as long as the media is actually putting the candidates’ actual words and actions in view.

So, did he or she SAY this or that? Did he or she DO this or that? It is to THAT - that responsible citizens look. I don’t make my own judgments or opinions based on what the media or anybody else tells me. I make them based on what the candidates themselves put forth, the good as well as the bad, as well as the nothing. And, I believe that MOST responsible citizens do the same.

So, if you or anybody else, on any of these boards, wants to persuade us to look at YOUR candidate, and consider what she or he has to offer, than put something out there!!! What has Hillary done, what decision has she made, what ANYTHING should we consider, in your recommendation? (besides the putting one foot in front of the other part, since I already know how to do that, and I’m mostly just concerned with how much longer I’ll be able to).

“It’s the Arabs who want Judea and Samaria cleansed of all Jews, dude. And that’s ethnic cleansing.” -lilmamzer, January 28 at 5:40 pm

Lilmamzer, you refuse to denounce Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestinians because you believe Zionists have a Biblical right to those lands. Religious beliefs don’t justify aggression and ethnic cleansing.

You deliberately invert the truth when you argue that Palestinians are occupying the West Bank and ethnically cleansing the Zionists there. You support war crimes and crimes against humanity as long as they’re perpetrated by Zionists. Religious beliefs are no defense to war crimes, any more than the Nazis could justify persecution of Jews because they believed Jews were engaged in a secret conspiracy to rule Germany.

(Cyrena, thanks for the advice to ignore lilmamzer, but no one should be allowed to support ethnic cleansing without being challenged. There are too many lives at stake.)

Ostrogoth…

Any communication with lil mamzer is a total waste of your energy.

This person calls EVERYBODY a bigot, and attempts to smear EVERYBODY as such. It’s easy enough to get sucked in, until you read enough of the same old shit that we’ve been hearing from him/her/it for over a year.

So, blow him/her/it off, and eventually he/she/it will go away for a while. Never for long enough, but from time to time, we do get a break.

Mangy to Tony Wicher just keep on dreaming.If you really believe that any American president is anything more than a puppet for Israel you truly are a dreamer,maybe one day you will wake up to reality.

It is interesting how this thread - “Yes, We Can” - has turned into a referendum on Israel, and the candidates’ positions thereon, and what those positions signify.

It is also interesting, and sad, how most (but not all) of the people on both sides are talking past each other, over each other, around each other, etc.

The bottom line is that wrongs are being done in both directions: Israel against Palestinians, and Palestinians against Israel.  Slights both real and perceived are being used to justify violence in both directions.  Innocents are dying on both sides.

There is plenty of blame to go around.  Whether “legitimate” or not, the State of Israel is not going away, nor do the Palestinians or the various Arab nations have a right to demand that.  As well, the millions of displaced Palestinians are not going away, and have an absolute right to a “homeland” of their own, not under Israeli rule, control or other aegis.

What has not been mentioned in all of the understandable emotional back-and-forth is that, as with most conflicts of this type, it is mostly the extremists on either side who are “dictating the discussion,” through violence.  Yet there are alot of progressives on BOTH sides who are trying to find a reasonable, workable way out of this mess.

Let’s stop with the epithets, name-calling, etc.  It only makes alot of you look like the extremist Palestinians and Israelis who are only making the mess worse by being unproductive.

Peace.

“Your sorrow for the suffering of little children would be believable if you had the compassion to extend it to all the innocents.”

I have written nothing on these pages (or anywhere) to suggest that I have no compassion for any innocents, regardless of their identity. That baseless charge coupled with your evasion of my direct challenge to you is proof enough of your moral blindness. What’s funny in this context is your truly appalling and unwarranted tone of condescension.
================

“Perhaps the sorrow you have translated to such blind hatred is really just a reflection of your sorrow for you.”

“Sorrow translated to such blind hatred”? That’s not even coherent, Louise.

I see you are choking on your own hatred, since you are unable to acknowlege, unequivocally, the genocidal atrocities against the Jews, committed over and over again, as a matter of policy by the “Palestinian” Arabs. And that’s pathetic.
===================

“Perhaps the sorrow you have translated to such blind hatred is really just a reflection of your sorrow for you.”

What does that mean???

I am truly sorry my gentle effort to tell you off went right over your head. So let me condense:

“Whatever it is, the huge chip they carry on their respective shoulders has grown so big and so cumbersome it blocks out the light, chokes off oxygen to the brain and if it keeps growing, may very well break the head from the neck!”

Your sorrow for the suffering of little children would be believable if you had the compassion to extend it to all the innocents.

Perhaps the sorrow you have translated to such blind hatred is really just a reflection of your sorrow for you.

Perhaps the name you have given yourself says it all.

“ Lilmamzer, don’t start with the red herrings. I don’t support ethnic cleansing of anybody, by anybody. Unlike you.

There you go again - hurl your absurd charges. I ask you again - when did I ever “support ethnic cleansing”?
====================

“ If you’re willing to join us in denouncing Zionist ethnic cleansing in the West Bank, then maybe you’re not a racist bigot after all.”

A Stalinist apparatchik couldn’t have spoken the party line any better than you did right there.

“Join us in denouncing...then maybe...” - LMFAO - right, just play ball and toe the party line…

It’s the Arabs who want Judea and Samaria cleansed of all Jews, dude. And that’s ethnic cleansing.

After all, there are about a million Arabs living in Israel right now, but the Arab demand (and yours, too) is for no Jews living in the ancestral and historic Jewish homelands. That’s ethnic cleansing. And it’s immoral.

Your double-speak is truly Orwellian, and your choice of words Stalinist in the classic sense.

You are a bigot and nothing you have said suggests otherwise. In fact, it only confirms what is plainly evident.

Re THE MANGEMEISTER, January 27 at 8:26 pm #

“Those of you who still believe that any president will bring about any real change are only fooling yourselves.Obama’s “Yes We Can” is no match for the AIPAC and their ilk,and in particular the Zionist controlled media.”
---------------------------------------------------
Oh, please, Mangey - you think superjews control everything? Well, you’re wrong. These Zionists are not so tough as all that. They are imperialist lackeys and basically scared to death, which accounts for their behavior more than anything else. 

Maybe all it takes to beat them is one honest president to tell the truth to the people.

Two birds with one post, not bad.

“Do you support Arab ethnic cleansing of Jews? Where is your outrage against that?” -lilmamzer, January 28 at 10:22 am

Lilmamzer, don’t start with the red herrings. I don’t support ethnic cleansing of anybody, by anybody. Unlike you.

“Where do I advocate ‘ethnic cleansing’”? -lilmamzer, January 28 at 10:22 am

If you’re willing to join us in denouncing Zionist ethnic cleansing in the West Bank, then maybe you’re not a racist bigot after all. But stop calling me a bigot and trying to smear me because I oppose racism and ethnic cleansing.

By Louise, January 28 at 2:49 pm

Sorry about that. I really cant help you.

Knew it - I put a very simple question to you - followed by your chance to come clean and embrace a fundamental fairness:

Are the “they” you refer to the Arab terrorists who no longer have free and easy access to slaughter Israeli kids on busses and pizza parlors because of the security barrier?

It’s not a zero-sum game, Louise. Ramble on about the plight of the “Palestinian"Arabs, but without equal condemnation of the atrocities committed by them and in their name, your arguments ring especially hollow and false.

....and I could see your evasive and incoherent reply coming.

Too bad for you, Louise - it makes you look insincere and phony. Are you?

“ Lilmamzer, I bet your an admirer of Ariel Sharon too.”

Yes, I certainly am, and very proudly so.

And congratulations to you. You seem to have moved on to yet another mean-spirited crusade - to smear John McCain - and you’re off to a good start.

Mike:

No, he didn’t.  But he did vote to continue funding it…

Peace.

“But there are far more who really want the ship of state to keep sinking! That’s hard to understand, really hard. But even harder to understand are people who cheer them on. What do we call that, the ultimate self deprecation? Or is it simple stupidity?”

“Whatever it is, the huge chip they carry on their respective shoulders has grown so big and so cumbersome it blocks out the light, chokes off oxygen to the brain and if it keeps growing, may very well break the head from the neck!”

***

“They” are those who have eyes to see, ears to hear, sense to feel and minds to understand. Which may add to your confusion.

Sorry about that. I really cant help you.

I posted this previous.

John McCain was the primary opposition to the Senate Select Committee on POWs. He bitterly opposed any attempt to rescue any other POWs. This is very strange since John McCain was himself, a POW.

The POWs that might have been rescued, would have been able to give testimony about the 32 propaganda tapes that John McCain made for the communists, while in Viet Nam. The 32 propaganda tapes are still “classified” so that no one can see them. 

Vietnam Veterans call John McCain a collaborator John McCain says that he would keep our soldiers in Iraq for 100 years. Would he also leave any prisoners there for the rest of their lives? 

McCain was bombing women in a lightbulb factory (according to Newsweek) when shot down in North Vietnam.  He has never failed to defend any illegal or violent war in which the US leaders involved the citizens.

McCain has the support of Henry Kissinger (indicted in Belgium for war crimes), of Joe Lieberman, neocon rejected by Democrats in Connecticut, and other war profiteers.

The McCain Feingold bill made it possible for war profiteers to run nonstop swift boat attack ads ... a campaign to help in Bush’s illegal installation in the White House.

McCain approves the Bush tax cuts for the rich which in combination with the Iraq and Afghanistan fiascos have caused trillions in deficit.

Lilmamzer, I bet your an admirer of Ariel Sharon too.

The Palistinians have the right to defend their homes against the overkill of Israel.

http://apnews.myway.com/image/20080125/MIDEAST_ISRA EL_PALESTINIANS_BORDER.sff_AXLP157_20080125172202.html?date =20080126&docid=D8UDMD3O0

“Which leaves one kinda baffled when they see that wall ...”

Are the “they” you refer to the Arab terrorists who no longer have free and easy access to slaughter Israeli kids on busses and pizza parlors because of the security barrier?

You see, those Israeli kids deserve justice as much as any other, and that includes the right not to be blown to bits because they, well, exist.

Deny them that and there can be no justice.

It’s not a zero-sum game, Louise. Ramble on about the plight of the “Palestinian"Arabs, but without equal condemnation of the atrocities committed by them and in their name, your arguments ring especially hollow and false.

“Israel has the right to respond”

Of course she does. And Obama is right to say so.

Is your moral universe one in which Jews must accept the slaughter of their children and be denied the right to defend themselves?

I see you’ve been reading your newspaper, read the responses to the article.

http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=826

McCain is an suck ass toad of Israel.

Hillary