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Romney Hazy on Torture DefinitionPosted on Jan 15, 2008
CNN’s ubiquitous anchor Wolf Blitzer point-blanked Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney last weekend about what exactly constitutes torture and whether techniques like waterboarding are ever defensible, but Romney deferred to the popular national security rationale, implying that in “ticking time bomb” circumstances, a president may elect to use certain unpopular techniques. Watch the clip here.
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By Debra Istvanik-Strotman, January 20, 2008 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment
Romney doesn’t appear to know much about torturing suspects, nor does he appear to have read the reports from leading experts on the value of a confession from a tortured person.
I would like to see Romney under-go waterboarding, as well as other torture techniques. It would be interesting to see what the man would confess to, and how long it would take him to confess. Some interegators have undergone waterboarding because they wanted to know what it was like. These fools said: After a few minutes of the torture they couldn’t take it anymore. What they didn’t say was “Had the interegation not stopped, would they have confessed to crimes they hadn’t commited to end the torture?”
I personally decided Romney was a low life when during one of his little get togethers, a woman stood up and asked Romney, “How many of his five sons were either in Iraq or Afganastan.” Romney repied, “My sons are doing their part for America by helping me to get elected President.
Warmongers should raise their own children to want to go off to war and fight for their country, instead of raising them to believe they are to good to fight for their country. Why die or be maimed for your country when those with less, can fight and die for your freedom.
Nothing but hypocrites running this country. I challenge Mr. Romney to be a man and take a torture test. Of course it should be taped and public so we can all see the truth of what would happen, not the later lies that would be told.
Report thisBy Ostrogoth, January 19, 2008 at 3:04 am Link to this comment
As Naomi Klein points out in The Shock Doctrine, torture is an extremely effective tool for suppressing political opposition. It is a terror tactic par excellence. You only have to torture one political opponent to silence a hundred, or even a thousand, political opponents.
Torture has become an exact science that can break the will to resist of the most determined adversary. Inducing psychosis through prolonged sensory deprivation and stress has become an art form, and the CIA employs it religiously. Bush ordered its widespread use in Iraq and in his Gulag; it formed an integral part of his Shock and Awe campaign against the Iraqi people.
Fascists like Romney and most other Republican candidates are not about to renounce such a powerful weapon of intimidation. HRC, always trying to out-hawk the hawks, has articulated a position close to Romney, although to her credit she voted against the MCA of 2007. (But didnt filibuster the Act, even after she called it a threat to fundamental rights.)
Report thisBy Paolo, January 17, 2008 at 6:29 pm Link to this comment
Then it’s okay for the enemy, too.
Let’s say a modern-day John McCain is shot down over Iraq. The Iraqi Resistance (commonly misnamed “Terrorists”) captures McCain. They conclude, not unreasonably, that McCain probably has some knowledge of future plans for air-raids over territory held by the Resistance.
Now, if they can get McCain to talk, they might save—let us say—a thousand innocent lives! Isn’t it worth torturing McCain to save a thousand lives? Let’s have at it!
That is EXACTLY the argument made by the nitwits touting the “ticking time bomb” scenario.
Well, if it’s okay for us to torture, then it’s okay for the other guys to torture, too.
George Washington, during the Revolutionary War, took the high road. He gave orders never to torture the enemy.
CIA and other intelligence professionals (google “Ray McGovern if you doubt this) consistently say that intel garnered through torture is almost always useless.
So why torture?
Simple: torture is how you extract “confessions,” which are useless tactically, but priceless for purposes of propaganda!
Observe that our torture of Iraqi Resistance Fighters resulted in CONFESSIONS and fingering (conveniently) of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Again: useless tactically, but priceless for purposes of propaganda!
The Soviets knew this. They tortured, not for gaining useful intel, but for confessions that they trumpeted ceaselessly in their government-owned press.
Isn’t it funny of modern “conservatives” increasingly look and sound like old-guard Soviets?
Romney, by the way, as the ultimate corporatist (aka Fascist) candidate, is also the candidate who sees no limitations on presidential power WHATSOEVER. He’s even worse than Benito Giuliani. McCain, having experienced torture, at least seems to want to limit it in some vague ways. Romney wants to torture on his own whim, using “protection of the people” as a justification. No fascist in history could have said it better.
By the way, I’m not a “liberal” or a “socialist.” I’m a libertarian who wants to take the monstrous power to torture OUT of the hands of these sub-humans who run our government.
Report thisBy purplewolf, January 15, 2008 at 9:51 pm Link to this comment
It is already well known that information that has been retrieved through torture is rarely of any benefit and usually useless as well as wrong. The person being tortured will say anything or agree to anything in the majority of these cases just to make the suffering stop.
Seems this country has already regressed back to the torture tactics and beyond which Salem Massassachutts was known for. Makes you proud to say your an American.
The more advanced we think we are, the more savage we treat our fellow humans.
Report thisBy Roger Lafontaine, January 15, 2008 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Amazing, Mitt Romney doesn’t want to stop torturing because it would simply be unfair to CIA employees for him to declare what torture is. What a good boss. In fact what a great boss! Who could have known he would be so empathetic for the poor employees under him? He is the kindest capitalist that ever lived.
Report thisBy Expat, January 15, 2008 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment
I think we are long past making the statement democrat/republican as though it defines a meaningful difference. Torture has long been defined by the Geneva Convention and Nuremburg. So now we have joined the likes of Pol Pot, Dr. Mengeles, the Nazis, the Japanese of WW II, the Catholic Church and the Inquisition and many others throughout history. We should be proud that our clean cut politicos are still denying evolution as an advancement of humanity. We have despoiled ourselves and it remains to be seen if this batch of candidates has crawled out of the slime.
Report thisBy Donovan, January 15, 2008 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Perhaps I’m missing something, but I see this issue having a simple conclusion. Regardless of what side of the argument you’re for, you can conjure a scenario that supports your side. So, for those who advocate torture, you need to identify yourself as supporting either torture with limits or no limits. For those who oppose torture flat out, it’s simple: don’t do it, ever.
For the advocates: If you have a suspect in custody who you believe has knowledge of the ticking time bomb and you want to do whatever it takes to prevent that horrible thing from happening in order to save 10,000 lives, then I ask: what if it would only save 100 lives, or 10, or 1. What’s the moral-minimum number of innocents that must be saved to justify torture? If there’s a minimum number, then it’s easy: employ torture only when the number of saved innocents is equal to or greater than that number and not until then. Otherwise, if there is no minimum, then what are the real criteria for determining when to use torture?
My problem with all of the hypothetical scenarios I hear is that there exists an uncertainty that the person to be tortured actually has the knowledge that’s sought and/or that the person is the actual individual that has the knowledge. It’s this uncertainty that’s makes the use of torture unusable, in my view and in the view of intelligence professionals. That’s why we don’t kill criminals via death penalty until they’re proven guilty by judicial processes. By that point we assent that (1) they’re who we think they are and (2) that they did what we think they did; it’s all been proven unequivocally.
After 9/11, over 1000s of people have been detained. Only a dozen or less have actually been charged with crimes, and I don’t know how many (a great deal) were mistaken identities or how many were detained due to profiling. Some of usAfrican-Americansare familiar with the fallacy of treating people like criminals simply due to fitting a profile based on race, or any other fruitless characteristic. So, our government has proven, if nothing else, its inability to catch the right people. So those who advocate torture are implicitly advocating the torture of innocent people.
Americans are bitter about 9/11, rightfully so, so some of us are willing to look the other way, or outright promote, if our government wants to use torture on terrorists. But my question is: how do you know you’re torturing a terrorist and not an innocent person? For those who can create a scenario in which torture is seemingly the only moral and logical avenue to prevention of an act of terrorism, they fail to realize the assumptions on which the scenario is based; primarily that the accused is (1) the right person who (2) knows something valuable.
Report thisBy P. T., January 15, 2008 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment
The leading Democratic contenders promise to continue the Iraq War. Imperialist wars beget torture as the occupiers try to sort out the resistance fighters from the general population. Democratic presidents have a long history of torture (for example, Southeast Asia, Latin America, etc.).
Report thisBy brewerstroupe, January 15, 2008 at 12:06 pm Link to this comment
The “ticking bomb” scenario is a canard.
If such circumstances pertain (and they almost never do) where justice or safety is furthered by breaking the letter of the law, the correct response is to do so then plead mitigating circumstances in any subsequent hearing.
The rationale offered by Romney and others who would destroy this most basic human right is classic bait and switch - they invoke “ticking bomb” scenarios to justify torture performed at leisure, in circumstances utterly devoid of urgency.
Report thisBy Conservative Yankee, January 15, 2008 at 9:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Of course Romney is “hazy on Torture Definition” as are most governors. Torture occured and occurs daily in facilities euphemistically referred to as “juvenile corrections centers” “juvenile boot camps” and “residential treatment centers.” When the children “rat” “snitch” or protest the abuse increases.
I have not been to all the juvenile facilities in all the States, BUT I have worked in these plaaces in seven States. unattached children, “minority” (within the institution) children, and children with disabilities are particularly vulnerable to abusive practices within juvenile institutions.
The abuse committed in Massachusetts “Secure treatment facilities” is incredible, and Maine, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Minnesota, Oregon, and New York are just as bad.
As an example, Here in Maine, the administration of the “Maine Youth Center” authorized the “treatment” of one 14-year-old boy to include being strapped in a chair without break for 18 hours. After he urinated in his pants, they had him stand in front of the mess hall, in his wet pants, as the other children hit, insulted, and humiliated him as they passed.
I don’t know about other truth dig folks, but this sure sounds like torture to me.
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