News special for you conspiracy theorists:

On Yahoo News http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gulf_us_war_of_words

“CAIRO, Egypt - Sailors in the Persian Gulf have known him for years: a radio operator who taunts and insults passing ships. The rants are heard and logged, then mostly forgotten.

But now the phantom voice has taken center stage in the latest flurry of claims and counterclaims between Iran and the United States following a tense high seas confrontation — raising new questions about whether Washington could have gotten a key element of the story wrong.”

its all fun and games until someone dies

Bravo for straight talk 11!!

I thank you!!

If it was so provacative and dangerous, why weren’t
the boats shot out of the water. Simple it was nothing but another Gulf of Tonkin.

Regarding Douglas Chalmers, January 8 at 7:23 pm

Why are you coming down on Scheer for saying basically the same things you are, Douglas? I don’t get that. In stating that it’s not entirely clear what’s happening he is expressing skepticism about Bush’s characterization.  What the heck is wrong with that?

Maybe you want him to be stronger in saying the whole thing’s a crock? Good journalists don’t polarize issues like that. They’re wisely cautious in their assessments. He’s doing a good job of sewing seeds of doubt, just as he should. Objective people don’t trust these turkeys anymore anyway.

The intelligence community undercut the hyperbolic, incendiary rhetoric Bush continued spouting even months after he was already briefed on the very intelligence report they undercut him with, so now he’s pissed and grabbing at straws. We’re not journalists, so we can just up and say what we really think even if we don’t have the facts to back it up. We do have a lot of evidence accumulating from past behavior, though, don’t we? That’s not enough for the higher standards of journalistic objectivity the media SHOULD be using (instead of infotainment like FOX News, for example). Do we really want our side of the issues to emulate FOX?

Frank,

Think back for a moment, to the USS Cole. Do you remember where the USS Cole happened to be at the time?

Think hard. Remember?

Yep, they were docked at Yemen. Now, why do you think the US Navy was docked at Yemen? Did we belong there? Was it a legal trespassing?

Well, here’s a hint. The mother of one of those sailors that was killed in that attack (I’ll provide her name if you require it) sued the Pentagon/US Dept of Defense for WRONGFUL DEATH, and yes…she WON that case.

Why? Because the US Navy (the USS Cole) was illegally in that space, at that time. They had NOT included Yemen on their plan, and they were not supposed to be there. Could that be why they were subjected to that attack?

Can you possibly explain why you believe it is perfectly acceptable for the US military to go anywhere in the world that they choose to go, damn all rules of law and protocol? Can you give us a clue to what might happen if ANY other country decided to dock their WARSHIPS at any of our coastlines?

Just something to consider.

Frank,

If you or anyone else can come up with the actual coordinates of where these warships are located, (now and always, since they’ve got so many of them there) I’d be happy to tell you whether or not they are violating territorial space, per the International Law.

The thing is, the Hormuz Strait is and has always been, a major trade shipping lane. So a certain portion of it IS International water. However, do you actually believe that ANY of the US Warships that have been hanging around in the area for nearly 2 years, (at times, there have been up to nine of them) are there for the purposes of TRADING anything, (besides weapons fire) or even ‘in transit’ as they claim?

As for the Iranians, they’ve already said that these are ROUTINE incidents, at least since the US set up a flotilla of Warships in the Persian Gulf. So, if you need me to look for that exact quote, I can. (it’s also available from the news of 2 days ago).

Still, the Pentagon certainly isn’t releasing any details of exactly where these warships are located, and so it’s difficult to address from a purely legal standpoint, whether they are in Int’l waters, or violating territorial jurisdiction. In the larger picture however, can we not think from just a common sense point of reference? The US Navy is 6,000 miles from home. The Iranian speedboats are somewhere around 650 ft from their own coast line. I ask again, who is harassing who? (again, we’re just talking ballpark common sense here).

I would also remind you of the incident of the Tonkin Bay, which kicked off the Vietnam catastrophe, based on a lie.

Here’s yet another incident from last month….

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/11/world/main3701849.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_3701849

By Jkoch, January 10: “The US Navy hasn’t had much opportunity for grand sea battles since the days of Leyte Gulf or Midway Island…”

Actually, the last “great sea battle” was right there in the Persian Gulf, Jkoch. Guess what happened:-

Navy officials said the Vincennes’ crew believed they were firing at an Iranian F14 jet fighter, although they had not confirmed this visually. The plane blew up six miles from the Vincennes, the wreckage falling in Iranian territorial waters….

Pentagon officials acknowledged at the time that increased US military presence would risk provoking confrontations with Iran. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm

Note that US warships have been escorting Kuwaiti tankers in and out of the Persian Gulf…. during the eight-year-old Iran-Iraq War in which the USA backed Saddam Hussein and Iraq!!!

I’ve done my fair share of water skiing and our family always follows the rules. I could swear those boats didn’t have their red flags up while they looked for their downed skiers. That U.S. patrol boat should have issued a citation. Water safety is very important!

That’s pretty much what I expected. Since neither Chalmers nor jbart want to answer the rather obvious question I offered (for fear of looking silly, perhaps), and since they don’t seem to want to try and argue the facts with someone they rightly suspect knows a good bit more than they do on such matters, they just default to attempting ad-hominem replies that are actually pretty limp, and do nothing to support their goofy claims.

Jbart, I can assure you that illuminating the fallacious thinking of certain irrational individuals on this message board does nothing to advance my personal goals, although it could be considered a public service, and one I find mildly amusing at times.

Would anyone care to take a crack at the question I posed? If the US was violating Iranian waters, and was not in International waters as they claim, then why did the Iranians not say so in their press release? it would be great propaganda for them, after all, painting the US as the aggressor. 

Wait…let me try to put myself in the conspiratorial mindset for a minute…I understand now…it is because the real Iranian press release was intercepted by the NSA and replaced with one written by the CIA Psy-Ops unit. Iran hasn’t actually even acknowledged the incident because the boats weren’t really Iranian, but were Halliburton boats manned by Blackwater contractors and commanded by Illuminati Naval Admiral Dick Cheney.  This false flag operation was actually filmed in an artificial lake in Area 51.  In fact, the site where it was filmed is near the site where the fake moon landings were filmed and not far from where the Freemason agents of the New World Order buried Jimmy Hoffa.  Oh wait, I forgot the most important part…it’s the jews, man! The jooos!

http://icga.blogspot.com/2008/01/irans-unduly-provocative-act-against-us.html

Let me see,
the U.S. is 12000 miles from our shores in the straights of Hormuz, well within the Iranian economic zone, being provocative and acting like a bunch of assholes in the eyes of the world community and an ever growing community here at home. (A majority I think.)

To even infer the Iranians were acting in a threatening manner is an assault on reason.

By Frank, January 9: ”...do any of you really think that if the US was not in international waters as they claim, that the Iranians wouldn’t be saying so and making accusations that the US violated their territorial waters….”

I seem to have forgotten how pointless it is trying to have a “rational conversation” with you with that kind of statement as a basis. Sorry, I remember now, Frank. I hope you do go on to a ‘normal’ encounter with your counsellor/case manager/psychiatrist, today. Bye bye.

Why on earth would Iran taunt US Navy ships? This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
The Bush Administration, Military Industrial Complex and Oil Cartels are trying their hardest to get us into another war, a war with Iran. I speculate that the boats you see are owned and operated by or through the CIA. Soon the boats will fire on a Navy ship or even ram into one (USS Cole). This will just help create another Gulf of Tonkin type incident that propelled the US into the Vietnam War. The NIE report just slowed “them” down.

By the way, do any of you really think that if the US was not in international waters as they claim, that the Iranians wouldn’t be saying so and making accusations that the US violated their territorial waters? The Iranians already admitted it was their boats, happened in International waters, and they claim it was a ‘normal’ encounter. Of course, once they found out their naval shenanigans were videotaped and saw it released to the media, they had to make a claim about the tape being fabricated.

Wait a minute, why am I here trying to have a rational conversation with with the conspiracy goofs?  I seem to have forgotten how pointless it is. Sorry, I remember now. Bye bye.

adlan123, speedboats laden with explosives are as dangerous at that distance as any major naval vessel, perhaps more so.  A boat smaller than any shown in this video did serious damage to the USS Cole, and killed 17 US sailor. Al Quaida is fond of ramming ships with small boats, having used this technique multiple times. Given the behavior of the vessels in this video and the language of the transmissions, it was a pretty provocative act.

Of course, you may be inclined to disbelieve any statements from the military or government in favor of your own invented conspiracy theory, or in favor of a statement by the Iranians, but I can’t assist you with your psychological problems. I can only point out the fallacious assumption about speedboats being a non-threat to major naval vessels.

By cyrena, January 9: ”...the Iranians wouldn’t be out and about 300 hundred miles from their coast line, is little speed boats, and therefore much closer in, which would put the US warships TOO CLOSE. ...I’d bet $5.00 that the US Navy was out of proper jurisdiction for what is considered Internationl waters….They do this ROUTINELY….. it’s just another Tonkin Gulf attempt to contrieve an incident….”

Some Americans still want to try to justify this incident in 1988…..
Quote Wiki: ”...the aircraft flying IR655 was destroyed by the U.S. Navy’s guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes between Bandar Abbas and Dubai, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 38 non-Iranians, 66 children and one pregnant woman. Both IR655 and the Vincennes were inside Iranian territorial waters at the time of the attack….” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

At least not that we could see from this. I did read another piece earlier though, (I can’t remember now, where it was…I think a BBC piece) that claims that the ship ‘bullhorned’ to the speed boats, that the were approaching as unindentified vehicles, and that they (the three US warships) were (get this) just on routine passage/transit through international waters.

ROUTINE PASSAGE? Unfortunately, it doesn’t give coordinates, so there’s no way to know exactly where they were, and of course a part of the area in the Hormuz Strait IS international waters. But, not ALL of it. And, I can’t remember precisely, without checking the books. But IF memory serves me correctly, I think anything within 50 miles, (and that would be the least, because it could be more) of any land border or buffer, is no longer international. I mean, you can only get within a certain distance of ANY nation’s physical borders, without it being a cause for aggressive action. And, we’re talking about 3 WARSHIPS!! It’s not like some merchant boat got off course. And they make it sound like they were on their way to somewhere else, and just cruising through, (routine transit/passage) when the truth is that they’ve been hanging out in the Persian Gulf for well over a year now. There were NINE of them at one time.

Still, there’s not way to know exactly where they were. We can assume perhaps, that the Iranians wouldn’t be out and about 300 hundred miles from their coast line, is little speed boats, and therefore much closer in, which would put the US warships TOO CLOSE. But, those are still only assumptions, at least from the video, and even from the other articles. None of them gave exact locations, but I’d bet $5.00 that the US Navy was out of proper jurisdiction for what is considered Internationl waters.

They do this ROUTINELY.

So, it’s just another Tonkin Gulf attempt to contrieve an incident.

Ya know, you’re right weather. He was just there. So, why did the BBC say this was his first trip to Israel?

Could he have been someplace else in the ME? I don’t remember now. It’s not like Israel is all that big though.

And, didn’t they have that first ‘peace meeting’ in Anapolis? Now this has me wondering. Where WAS he when he was there last? He rarely stays a full 24 hours.

So, I’m just hoping they keep him this time. Set him up with a year long visa and a guest house. Like the one they used to reserve for OBL at Kennebunkport, before he got murdered.

Bush, Cheney and their associates may yet have the conflict with Iran that they want.

Although the recent National Intelligence Estimate neutralized the nuke weapons theory, and the idea of Iranian improvised explosive devices killing our troops in Iraq has been deflated ... a conflict at sea could provide the spark for escalated conflict.

Adm. William Fallon, CENTCOM commander, has been a voice for reason and peace in the midst of Bush-Cheney calls for attack and war. He should take steps to keep our ships and sailors away from these sparks ... especially if they might be “false flag” activities or provocations by radical elements.

More on this in the article ...

“Will Bush, Cheney attack Iran? When and why?” (AmericanChronicle.com, February 1, 2007)

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=20093

I didn’t see any confrontation in the videos.  The U.S. Navy is nuts.

Yeah well, Bush WOULD call this ‘provocative’ and I previously read it as the Iranians ‘harassing’ the US Navy Ships.

So, who’s using the stupid language here? I’d say it’s real typical of GWB, since he’s looking for any reason at all, to do an attack.

There were THREE US SHIPS, and 5 little speed boats, presumed to be operated by Iranians. (we don’t even know that…I didn’t see any markings on the boats). But, the presumption would be reasonable, since this is the IRANIAN coast where these three ships are hanging around.

Nope, it’s Dickey Boy Cheney that wants to start WWIII. Why ELSE would there be THREE US WARSHIPS sitting in the Persian Gulf, right off the coast of Iran?

No doubt GWB doesn’t see the slightest thing ironic about that. And, didn’t the PENTAGON release this video? So, who’s trying to start WWIII, by releasing a video of a few Iranians, (we assume) hydro-jetting around in the waters off their own coast? Are they so desperate now after the latest NIE, that they have to take videos of Iranians in speedboats, to try and give an excuse to do this attack they’ve been chomping at the bits to do?

That is really, really, sad. Meantime, looks like the guys in the boats were having fun. All that’s missing are the jet-skis.

So, now Dick Bush owns the Persian Gulf. Why am I not surprised?

“Bush interpreted the seafaring meeting as provocative, but it’s not entirely clear what’s happening from just the video itself…”

Oh, come on, Scheer, ” Iranian, U.S. Ships Face Off At Sea” is hardly an accurate despcripton. Two US warships and two 20-foot fibreglass speedboats (or was one a rubber dinghy?) coming out to say “Hi!” or to check out the Americans off THEIR coast, uhh.

Do you want to start WW3, Scheer? Breitbart.tv was almost as bad when describing ”...the destroyer USS Hopper, one of the three ships that faced down five Iranian boats in a flare-up early Sunday…”. No wonder Americans are going soft in the head, ha ha. What a joke!