One of the big deals the Clintons have been using is the greatness of experience, the experience of Hillary will move our county forward. 

Experience, all the experience of Congress has got us into the mess our country is in.  Of course it may be a planed mess, because experience may be looking for something besides integrity. 

Judgment used by slicks willy, is another thing.

Interesting how the Hillary camp brings the war into the judgment, experience post?  Is that the way experience works, change the subject?

Been looking for it; haven’t found it.

Either nothing to say or extremely disciplined to stay on message, and not stray.

If either, what happens after an inauguration?

Why did Kucinich tell his Iowa supporters to vote for Obama? Why does Kucinich challenge the New Hampshire result where he got a only single-digit result? Does he believe that he can win? No, he hates the Clintons so much that he now shills for Obama. I was a Kucinich supporter until Iowa. I no longer am. I hope that he disappears soon. Good riddance of another Esau who sells his birthright for a bowl of snake oil.

I have read my own posting again. The word “sex” does not appear in it.
Speaking about “sex”, “race” and “civil rights movement”. Numerous women and non-blacks participated in that public struggle and some whites were actually murdered for it. The 1964 Civil Rights Legislation and Voting Rights Act were products of close black-white cooperation not seen again in our country since. Today it is almost totally absent and Senator Obama because of his intemperate attacks on the Clintons cannot put that cooperation back together again. The black community needs both Obama and Clinton empowered to get a fairer deal in our country. As it appears to me now, blacks, especially those imprisoned for minor drug charges, may well be the big losers of the 2008 elections especially if Obama is elected. Can you imagine President Obama pardoning the petty druggers whereas he escaped a jail sentence for the same albeit long ago? That would be the graveyard of his presidency. So, young black kids, prepare yourself for lots more years in the pens. You are not even in the political searchlights today.
Contrary to what some Obamaists falsely believe, Martin Luther King did NOT start the civil rights disobedience of the 1960’s. That was done by the courageous sit-inners, first in St. Louis, I seem to remember, and then in NYC. Some of them (all blacks) publicly expressed their contempt for the diddling King and the ditto leaders of the NAACP.

Maani, you wrote: “Which he did only once or twice”. According to the 1990 ruling of the US Supreme Court in Campbell vs. Clinton, once is enough to classify Obama not only as one of the paymasters of the war in Iraq but also as a Senator who, together with the remainder of the yes voters in congress, legally declared war on Iraq. Read the SC ruling and then try me again if you can.
Senator Obama has explained on several occasions why he had to vote for appropriations for the war in Iraq: “I must support the troops” he avowed. Fair enough, but supporting the troops means that you also support what the troops do in Iraq. They are not on a holiday there. They are at war. If he then failed to vote yes, that is even worse!! You promise the troops support and then you do not vote to give it to them??? Obama must therefore never become our next President. His promises are obviously not worth a piddly shit.

Me too.

Read Obama’s speeches on his website.  You may find substance there that you previously missed.

Dihey:

A minor correction.  You say that “Obama has been one of the “paymasters” of the war in Iraq along with Hillary Clinton. He has gotten away much too long with his deceptions on Iraq.”

Actually, his votes on appropriations for the war were a combination of Yes and “NV,” meaning he was either absent or was present and did not vote.

Thus, his “deceptions” on Iraq are more like omissions of fact: for a person who claims such a mantle of “principle” with regard to the war, he has either not bothered to show up to vote against appropriations, or he sat in the chamber and refused to take a stand by voting “No.”

While not exactly the same as voting “Yes” for appropriations (which he only did once or twice since he arrived in the Senate), this is clearly “deception by omission.”

Peace.

Ah gee Gomerspile,

Do we HAVE to stay in the ‘our side vs your side’ mode, or can we just leave that aside for a moment and get to what we ALL need.

Does it have to be just about ‘your side’ winning, no matter that there is no prize? (at least not for you or the rest of us posting here).

Now, on this New Hampshire thing, Dennis Kucinich is challanging the count. I’m not entirely sure why, since he didn’t make much of a showing at all, and that too...is sad, because he has always been my own first choice in this race, and I’m sure others have felt that way as well.

Still, the polarization between the parties, (and now among the parties) based on petty bullshit, is the part that needs to change.

Bill Clinton doing his desperate mudslinging, is seen as exactly that. These are just a bunch of desperate old geezers, (as I think Liza pointed out) and it’s time to get them the hell out of the way, if we’re gonna get any work done, that might save ALL of our asses, and not just ‘your side’ or the ‘other side’.

Comprende?

What is your take on Edwards then? Hillary and substance go together like Grapefruit and milk. The war is my main issue, so I like Kucinich and Gravel, now forced to the sidelines by special interests big money pockets, Edwards is next.

Yes, it depends on what you mean by sex?

Yesterday Keith Olberman played the entire context of Bill Clinton’s “fairy tale” remark. It demonstrates that the above posting is hugely misleading and that Bill was right. Clinton’s “fairy tale” remark referred to Obama’s transparent anti-war claims which have been, indeed, a cubic mile of hot air ever since he entered the US Senate. Obama has been one of the “paymasters” of the war in Iraq along with Hillary Clinton. He has gotten away much too long with his deceptions on Iraq.
Bill Clinton has also been criticized for his M.L. King remark. Anyone who has heard or read the sublime speech that President Johnson gave in support of the 1964 civil rights act knows that Bill’s choice of language was awkward but that he was again right on target. King spoke, Kennedy diddled, Johnson acted.
I am not interested in slogans. I am interested in hearing the truth and in this case it was told by Bill Clinton. The reaction of Obama’s supporters is a whine.
Today, Paul Krugman of the NY Times argued convincingly that the major foreign policy arena for our next president will be negotiations with China mainly on economic issues. The voters of Iowa and New Hampshire have, in their puerile wisdom, eliminated two contenders who would have been light years better than Obama for this namely Richardson and Biden. Even Hillary Clinton would be better than Obama. Scary to say the least. Well, we will surely get the president we so richly deserve but it may turn out to be another disaster.

In response to your comment, I for one will say, YES!

Grousefeather:

Bravo!  I have been saying this ad nauseam for over a month!

Boleslaw:

You raise an interesting question.  If Gore had won in 2000 and again in 2004, would so many people be having a problem with Hillary’s candidacy?  I wonder.

Peace.

Woman in Chains Lyrics
Artist(Band):Tears For Fears

You better love loving and you better behave
You better love loving and you better behave
Woman in chains, woman in chains

Calls her man the great white hope
Says she’s fine, she’ll always cope, ooh
Woman in chains, woman in chains

Well, I feel lying and waiting is a poor man’s deal (
And I feel hopelessly weighed down by your eyes of steel

Well, It’s a world gone crazy keeps woman in chains, woh woh woh
Woman in chains, woman in chains

Trades her soul as skin and bones

Sells the only thing she owns

Woman in chains , woman in chains

Men of stone, men of stone, hey baby, no no no, ooh

Well, I feel deep in your heart there are wounds time can’t heal

And I feel somebody somewhere is trying to breathe
Well, you know what I mean
It’s a world gone crazy keeps woman in chains

It’s under my skin but out of my hands
I’ll tear it apart
But I won’t understand
I will not accept the greatness of man
It’s a world gone crazy keeps woman in chains
Gone crazy keeps woman in chains

So free her, so free her, so free her
So free her, so free her
So free her, so free her
So free her, so free her, so free her, so free her
So free her, so free her
So free her, so free her

Bill Clinton was in bad form when they made this video.  He was obviously expecting a defeat for Hillary in New Hampshire, and his tone, his demeanor and his words were those of a very sore loser.  Then, Hillary wins and the whole thing was unnecessary.  So much for the idea that Bill is a charmer.  He seems to be entering the “geezer” phase of life, and perhaps it’s time for him to focus on something else besides politics.

It is getting very difficult to remember a time when the Whitehouse was not occupied by a Bush or a Clinton.  It is time to pass the torch.  Hillary Clinton has next to nothing to offer as president that we have not already seen.  She is old guard, status quo, faded, jaded, and her time has passed.  Let her be a senator, but do not elect her to the presidency thinking she is an agent of change.  She’s been around for 35 years, as she said.  You’ve seen it all already, and are you impressed?

Pass the torch.

If Hillary wins, we will make the Military complex happy, the insurance companies happy, the chemical companies happy, let just say all special interests happy.  So what is the problem?

cyrena:

Thank you for your lengthy post.  Even though I disagree with much of it, I appreciate the time, effort and thoughtfulness that went into it.  I am preparing a response, and hope to post it sometime later today (Thu, 1/10) or, latest, Fri 1/11.  Watch for it.

Peace.

If Mr. Obama is all smoke and mirrors , and full of hot air , just think of the combined stench of Bill and Hillary Clinton . With the passing of every presidential election , the same criteria seems to reign in respect to the choosing of a president by the American voters .
1)Charisma
2)Race
3)Gender
4)Appearance
5)Religion
6)Oratorical Ability
7)Marital Status
Given that the public is probably equally divided into Hillary lovers and Hillary despisers , the number of combined pro-Hillary voters ,minus the votes for the Republican Candidate + any independent + third party + writ-in candidates = a probable 30 to 35% of the final count on election day for Hillary . The best chance Hillary has for winning is to pull a sizable block of voters from the right side of the political spectrum . That is where Bill is soooooooooo valuable to keep in the wings .
Bill + Hillary = 2 closet Republicans = Faux Democratic Presidential victory = we the public loose = corporations and special interests win = an election to nowhere .

Part 1 of 4 Maani

Sorry for the delay. I’ve been without an internet connection for nearly 2 days now, and I still am. So, I’m working a bit from memory here, to address those things/questions that you originally posted, so that when the connection is hopefully restored, I can get this to you.

I should say at the onset, that my own choice for this particular election season has been Dennis Kucinich, and ideally, he still is. I fully understand the odds of him making any real progress, and so my next ‘choice’ would have to remain with Barack Obama.

I understand the importance of ‘experience’ possibly even more than the average American, though that changes, and experience is all relative, at least in politics. That GWB was able to become the POTUS, is proof of that. He had ZERO experience, when he was given the governorship of Texas, and that of course paved the political way to his appointment as POTUS, in what I call The Coup of 2000, It’s been a nightmare ever since. I think there are few who would disagree with that. 

That said, I believe this is the reason for the success of the platform upon which Obama has established his campaign. The CHANGE message –specifically at this point in our political history- is extremely important to most Americans. To that end, Americans, (myself included) are likely to embrace anyone who offers that change, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE RELATIVELY UNTESTED, because the human rational is that we desperately need something that is different from what has brought us the nightmare. This is just pragmatic thinking from what is as neutral a position as one can be, though none of us are totally apolitical or without some bias.

I would agree that between the two, Hillary does have more ‘experience’ but that is very relative, and it could work both ways, particularly when the same ‘experience’ can also be seen as ‘baggage’ or an unfavorable ‘history’, compared to a lesser amount of experience, that represents more of a clean slate, as in the case of Barack. Because, try as you/they/we might, there really is little ‘dirt’ to be found on Barack, even though he may be relatively untested in how he might govern. Specifically, I only recognized two of the names that you associated with him, one of them being his current campaign manager. For whatever the reason, when you claimed that he had ties to former Clinton-ites and Daschelites, I thought you were speaking about real policy advisors, or even former members of the Clinton admin. These people are apparently just political operatives in the campaign sense of things, and that has little or nothing to do with how Obama may actually govern. So for now, I’m dismissing that, since we DO have at least some idea, of where both of these candidates stand on the issues that are most important to Americans, for NOW, and for our future.

TBC

Part 2 of 4 Maani

On health care. Yes, it’s important. In reality, the plans from both of them are nearly IDENTICAL, and Obama has said that himself, long ago. (at least a year ago). I specifically remember when he assembled a team of experts from across the spectrum, to come up with something that might realistically work. And, although the plan by Dennis Kucinich is far better, I don’t know how he would implement that, without creating a hole somewhere else. (ie, can we eliminate the obscene profits that the insurance industry collects in connection with health care, without eliminating the large percentage of people who work at the bottom levels of that industry.) I think it’s doable, but admittedly, I don’t know HOW it would be done. So on health care, lets just accept that their plans are in fact the same, and I believe the only difference is that Obama would not make participation mandatory. Let us also remember that Hillary made this effort over a decade ago, and it failed.

On the privatization of Social Security. I don’t accept that to be Barak’s plan at all. The attempt to privatize SS has long been a neo-liberal concept that was one of the pillars of the GWB project, and it backfired on him. (thank God, if you’re a believer in such). So, while I know that Barak has made some noises about repairing that system, I can’t quote anything directly from him on it now. I DO NOT however, see that as a worry, as I did when GW was trying to push it, or the same worry that I have if Ron Paul were to get anywhere near the Executive Office. A very large percent of Americans are dependent on that system, having paid into it for years, and so anybody that talks about messing with it, is likely to eliminate themselves from any consideration. Obama isn’t stupid.

Of more particular domestic importance is the employment economy. Most Americans are by now aware of the drastic damage that NAFTA has done to our economy and the socio-economic viability of the American middle-class. Many may be LESS aware of the same connection to what they perceive to be an immigration problem, but rest assured, they ARE related. The effects of NAFTA have left us bereft here at home, and they have equally affected the worker economies of so many other nations, that those people do wind up here. In short, THEY are here, because WE are THERE. The corps have done the damage far more extensively than many Americans realize, because these are interrelated issues. And yes, Americans DO care, and we know that Hillary is very much connected to, and in favor of continuing that particular destruction. There’s no getting around that. It is what it is, and she’s made that very clear.

On foreign policy, which is equally important to Americans, Hillary has also maintained a war-mongering stance. You can claim that she has more ‘experience’ in this respect, but the truth is that her ‘experience’ does NOT work in her favor. She has been, from the beginning, and remains now, in full support of the agenda that insists on US Imperialistic hegemony throughout the globe. This is what has brought us to ruin.

It is in THIS respect, that the “Change” message from Obama, has brought the unexpected support that it has. Americans are sick of war. We KNOW that Hillary will continue it, if not expand it. So, as I suggested in an earlier post, Hillary does NOT really have the foreign policy ‘experience’ that you claim, but rather simply more name recognition among the rest of the world leaders. It’s NOT a positive name recognition in their eyes, with the exception of Israel.

Speaking of which…many Americans may not have yet made the connection to the realization, that our unprecedented support of the atrocities of the Israeli government for the past decades, (at least) is largely the reason for our own ills, specifically in respect to making us a target for terrorism. This too, is what it is, in the unvarnished truth of things.
TBC

Part 3 of 4 Maani
As I’ve said, many average Americans may not have made that connection, because the population to whom Barak has mostly appealed, has not necessarily been that deeply engage in foreign affairs, or even politics, until recently. It is a younger generation.

Americans go to work, school, and church and try to make comfortable lives for themselves and their families. They seek the American dream, which may sound like a phony and idealistic venture that no longer has a chance in the 21st Century, at least to the cynics among us. BUT..it is still what the majority of Americans seek for themselves, and they don’t need or even CARE to know all of the reasons, (or even the connections between the reasons) to see that the dream has died for them, as well as for most of their own neighbors, and within their communities. To that end, Americans aren’t nitpicking these other details in the same way that some of us may do, here and on other blogs. I can assure that this is not the kind of conversation that takes place at the water coolers of corporate American, or among the working minions. People don’t have the time, or in many cases, the desire to know ‘the reasons’ and so they look to a message of change, that is different from what has brought us to this point. THAT much, Americans DO know.

Now of course many of us DO care, and we do pay attention, and so from a pragmatic point, we can arrive at the same conclusions. If we KNOW that this militarism is what has created so much misery, we also KNOW that Hillary will continue it. We know from her Congressional record (and what she has stated publically) that she has no desire to EVER leave Iraq, because her own ideology is one that she shares with the others of her ilk. She frames it in such terms as ‘protecting American interests” (read – the oil, and US Hegemony) and that means never ending war, and the never ending quest to maintain Empire status. Again, we cannot afford this, and that much, Americans DO know.

We can nitpick about his and her voting record, and I can say that I personally, and disgusted that neither one of them cast a voice in the confirmation of Mukasey as AG. They should both have soundly rejected him, and made that clear. They did not, and in the end, it may not have made a difference, since there were other Democrats that did vote to confirm him. Obama however, has since made it abundantly clear where he stands on the issue of torture, and has said it loud and clear. It is NEVER acceptable, or allowable, under ANY circumstances, and we as Americans, need to begin honoring the rule of law – both domestically and internationally. We are committed to that, by nature of our Constitution, and by the principles of democracy.

Mrs. Clinton’s support of extended harassment of other members of the international community, (such as Iran,) are NOT helpful in these endeavors, and only continue the destruction and the chaos.  Anybody willing to do even the tiniest amount of research would understand that Iran is not a threat to us, or anybody else. So, why has there been all of this saber-rattling for these past several years and why does Hillary continue to advance that? Yes, Americans DO want security, and we expect our government to provide it. We expect to be protected against the bad guys, and we expect that our government will provide the security of opportunity. Most Americans are not looking for a ‘handout’, but rather the opportunity to work and provide for themselves and their families.
TBC

Part 4 of 4 Maani

The whole terrorism issue has been a created issue, and it has happened as a result of long term imperialism that refuses to acknowledge or respect the sovereignty of other nation states, wherever they may happen to be on the planet. We also have a history of aiding and abetting the formation of extremist groups when it appears to be advantageous to our imperial adventures, only to have it backfire and blow up in our faces at some point, not unlike Dr. Frankenstein and his infamous monster. Until our leaders accept that these imperial designs and neo-colonialism will not work any better than the old colonialism, we will have the resulting affects of extremist blowback. Obama GETS that, and it’s what he means by ‘change’.

And, back to the elephant in the room that in all honesty, many Americans are still not completely aware of. Israel. How is it that such a tiny and relatively young nation state has such an enormous influence on the political priorities of the US? And, they do.
You can look to a recent publication of Haartz, and see the results of public polls of ISRAELIES, on our presidential election. Yes, they’ve weighed-in on who THEY prefer to lead OUR nation. What exactly the hell is up with that? Do the Germans or the French, or the Norwegians, or the Cubans, or the Mexicans, or the Canadians, run public opinion polls on who THEY want to lead the US? Do WE run public opinion polls here, on who WE want to lead these other nation states? Of course not!

And yet, that is exactly what has occurred here, and we all know that the oligarchy in this country, to which Hillary Clinton belongs, has sworn as much allegiance to the interests of Israel as to our own interests. That has put us in the position of taking the blows intended for Israel. Let me make it clear, our dog should NOT be in that fight!! Israel needs to get with the program, and find a way to survive with her own neighbors, or risk whatever consequences come to those who refuse to do so. What that SHOULD mean, is sanctions by the UN, instead of SUPPORT, from the US. Hillary isn’t gonna do a damn thing to change that, and we all know it. That’s why she and Giuliani are the first choices of the Israelis, to lead OUR country.

Hillary has also committed her husband and the Senior Shrub, (GHWB) to a world ‘peacemaking’ tour as part of her presidential ‘to do’ list. This says to the entire world, that everything that the Dick Bush cabal has done to destroy us over the past 7+ years, will all just be swept under the already filthy rug, and off they’ll go, like the monarchy that they are…never accountable for anything, including 9/11, and the created GWOT.

Obama on the other hand, is willing to use his knowledge in the laws of the land, (including international and civil rights/human rights law) to make things right. He will overturn all of this destruction that has been done to our Constitution, and I feel comfortable that he will. I’ve heard that much from him.

Last but clearly most importantly, ANY CHANGE from the corporate oligarchy that has brought us to total destruction, is a positive change. So, it’s not about charm, or good looks, (though that certainly doesn’t hurt him) but it’s about the fact that he is not an icon of all that has destroyed us to this point. Hillary is. We don’t want war. Obama knows that. And, if it’s the ONLY thing he changes, that would be good enough for starters. We know we will NOT get that from the war-monger.

So, while there will certainly be some disappointed folks, (there always are) I think the majority will be satisfied, which we’ll know, when Obama wins the race. I’d still rather have Kucinich, but Obama will bring the change we need.

Nope, you’re not missing anything. It’s really a stupid rebuttal. It’s sort of like saying, I know that wasn’t an inside job, because I was in the FAA tower in Chicago when that happened.

Bill should just go sit his old ass down somewhere. He’s just making it worse.

It’s funny BILL should be talking about fairy tales...whoa...now there’s a stretch.  Remember, he smoked pot but didn’t inhale, he questions what is IS, and he never touched “that woman”. (which really was pitiful, “that woman” as if he was an innocent being viciously attacked, the poor forlorn soul) When will he figure out that he does himself and his family more damage by opening his mouth instead of his brain.

As far as the war goes this is a classic pot calling the kettle black senario.  As if this would just whoosh right over everyone’s head.  Did you notice how he was spewing this garbage to a group of young adults?  That might work Bill....but I doubt it.  And really...it makes you look rather pathetic, my God I almost feel sorry for you.

It’s a little disingenuous that Bill of all people is defending Hillary, he’s the one who humiliated her.......IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE NATION, with “that woman”.  Personally, I see Bill as Hillary’s albatross.

Gabir:

While I agree that Bill has to start taking more of a back seat, I disagree with your comment about Obama and his Iowa win.

Obama is all smoke and mirrors: he is full or wonderful, sweet, inspiring rhetoric - with zero substance.  He has not once explained or clearly articulated what he means by “hope,” “change,” “turn the page,” etc.  In fact, not a single Obama supporter on this site - in over half a dozen threads - has been able to do so either.  Everyone is simply mesmerized by his charisma, caught up in the heady haze of his “rock star” moment, and sucked in by his “inspiring” rhetoric.

But Obama is campaigning on fumes.  And when those fumes dissipate - as they must - alot of people are going to be extremely disappointed.

Peace.

the “official” story of 9/11 is the biggest fairy tale in history!

Bill knows it, Edwards knows it, Giuliani knows it - the all know it!

Please watch these:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=39795687794141 36481&q=press+for+truth&total=976&start=0&n um=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=78669294481927 53501&q=loose+change&total=4108&start=0&num =10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

“You wanna know what I think?” Clinton said. “You guys who think 9/11 was an inside job are crazy as hell. My wife was the senator from New York when that happened. I was down at Ground Zero. I saw the victims’ families. You’re nuts.”

This has to be the stupidest rebuttal I’ve heard yet.

What does his wife being the Senator from NY and he being at Ground Zero have to do with anything? Let alone proving that the “official” story of 9/11 is true?

Am I missing something here? Don’t think so.

I think you sell Hillary’s intelligance a little short and her savvy and her strength.  In fact, for all we know, she may have worn the balls the whole time they were in the White House.

As voters , we expect any candidate for any political office to be able to stand on their own , without the continual shadowing of another person to gain the office for them . It is not wrong or unusual for a candidate’s spouse to make appearances onthe campaign trail in the candidates behalf , but the political/marrital relationship of Hillary and Bill Clinton in respect to her campaign is a disgusting display of filthy politics .
Hillary Clinton will not win the Democratic Party nomination if Bill does not exit stage left very soon . If the appearances of the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign are any indication of what her prospective presidency would be like , then it is time for her to depart .
She and her husband are not only an embarrassment to the Democratic Party , but also will do irreparable harm to the prospect of female presidential candidates in future elections . If Hillary is so independent , intelligent , and strong , why is Bill always there to throw the rotten eggs in her defense .
Mr. Obama won Iowa because he is a strong , viable candidate for the presidency . Hillary took second place behind him in the vote basically because the Clinton “mystique” has started to crumble . I would love to see a female president , but I would also love to see a black president . Mr. Obama has at least proven that there is a viable black candidate beyond the fall of Colin Powell .
Mrs. Clinton has not shown us much else to indicate she is presidential material except that s , like Charlie McCarthy , she sits in Bill’s knee and he magically does the actual talking .