part the second.

Tony:

I will fully admit that the case of the passport seems rather manufactured on the face of it.  However, 2 things.
1) if a group of people were actually smart enough to pull this whole thing off, why would they be so dumb as to do something as stupid as walk up to a cop and hand it to him?  It doesn’t make sense. 
Many objects were recovered from the crashes.  Multiple passports, credit cards, seat cushions, multiple pieces of mail (that were then delivered), and other personal effects.  It is actually not that unique for things like this to survive crashes and explosions.  Hell, the space shuttle Columbia exploded miles in the air, and worms that were onboard for an experiment were found still in their containers, and alive afterwords.  (I suppose the columbia disaster was also a government plot.) http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts107_worms_0305 01.html

for further reading try http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/your-docu ments-please.html

2) As far as the hijackers still being alive, or the identities being wrong, this all comes from one story from the BBC that was written in 2001.  The BBC has recanted the story, and in fact written about the fact that they got it wrong.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_cons piracy_theory_1.html
Since then, there has been zero reports of these people still being alive.  Saudi Arabia has even admitted that most of the hijackers came from their country.  And again, if the people who did this were so smart, why not make the hijackers from afghanistan and Iraq, instead of a country we are supposed to be allies with?  If the idea was to go to was with Iraq, why not make them Iraqi?  That would make more sense.  But instead, they decided to not make Iraq suspect in any single point of the attacks?  This theory holds no weight. 
http://www.911myths.com/html/still_alive.html
that is a more in depth discussion on the claim that they are still alive. 

Sheila:

“I am not easily fooled or misled”

sorry, just had to post that again since it was so funny.  Your killing me here.  Really, any response to anything i have said yet?  Any counter point to any of my statements?  Anything?  Please?
Yeah, get a million of you walking around washington, that should show them.  I can see it now, one skeptic asks the group a question, and 1 million people simultaniously stop talking and try to ignore that anything has happened.  Ever.  In the history of the universe.

Okay, time to hit the road, It’s happy hour, and i hear Arafat is buying.  What, you thought he was dead?  No one on the NWO payroll ever dies.

Part Uno.

Well, that was a fun lunch meeting.  Who would have thought that Bob Barker was actually an alien?  I mean, i know David Icke outed Kris Kristofferson as a lizard man, but Bob Barker?  Wow.  Anyway, enough chit chat.

Heavyrunner:

I hope you caught my response dealing with aetruth.com.  Anyway, as soon as anyone in the truth movement does a single real life experiment to show how explosives could have been placed in the towers without anyone knowing, and then detonated them, maybe i will give them another thought.  As for Gage, look over my previous comments to see my opinion of his work.  And you mention demolition expertS.  Admittedly it has been a while since i have watched the presentation, but i seem to remember the only person Gage made reference to was Jowenko.  That is one expert, not experts.  Add to this, he was watching that footage for the first time, he had not actually studied the event.  While he made mention of the fact that while a few people could do it, he also says that it would be an ugly job, it would have to be quick, and the place would have to be cleared.  Add to that the fact that he explicitly states that the collapse is different than WTC 1 and 2.  And he is still to this day, as far as i know, the only demolitions expert to ever support the theory that WTC7 was demo’ed. 

No one has ever been able to point to any technology that could be hidden in the WTC’s, that is powerfull enough to cut through the steal, and could have been installed easily and quickly.  Which kinda makes the case for CD rather impossible.  Am i wrong?

Oh boy, a bunch of things to reply to today.  I guess i should have skipped the early morning team building meeting here at the NWO headquarters.  Anyway, time to earn my paycheck.

PatrickHenry:

Yes, there are many truth sites, but i question your assertion that their experts are better than the ones on who do debunking.  Find me one actual peer reviewed article or journal by the truthers, and we can talk then.  And about the truther sites for professionals, Well, lets look at the numbers here.  According to http://news.thomasnet.com/IMT/archives/2007/06/the_sta te_of_architecture_construction_building_architects_in_amer ica.html?t=recent
the American Institute of Architects places their membership at about 108,000 members.  ae911truth.org lists 66 architects, 11 of which they say they do not have proof of accreditation. 

And according to the information in
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20021015S0031
the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers state that the number of employed engineers in the second quarter of 2002 was 1,923,000.  (keep in mind that was just employed engineers) ae911truth lists 114 engineer members, with 36 without accreditation. 

Even giving them the benefit of the doubt on the members not proven, do you want to take a stab at what percentage the people on that site represent of their chosen line of work?  You really want anyone to take that site seriously?

That gives you %0.007 on the engineer side, and %0.07 on the architect side.  Not exactly a resounding majority.  Especially when there are many in the private sector who have taken their time to debunk any and all assertions that this very very small majority makes. 

And you state:
“I don’t want to hear that information is classified and cannot be released, especially when many questions surrounding this event are so important to the people, yet go unanswered.  Who are the secrets being held from?”

But then you link to a site that has an article the is from an anonymous source, about an anonymous person, and at an unnamed news organization.  Kinda a double standard. 

Well, i have more, be we have our friday lunch meeting in about 10 minutes.  On the down side, I think it is meatloaf again but on the plus side,  the presentation is by the free masons, and theose guys are great with powerpoint.

Hm….I got buried. Not that I mind too much if I get booted from this conversation, as it is oh so pleasant to begin with, but still. No one could manage a response to me? No, all that needed to be done was to see Nilo and proceed to peck at him…man, everyone said something to him.

I’m not including ‘Franker than Frank’s post as a reply, either. It was so…utterly insulting to replies everywhere that I feel sick just for reading it. I wrote up quite a bit of stuff…was it my admission to not being a self-called genius that turned you away, or the fact that it wasn’t easy to make me sound evil (and dumb)?

His post spit on everything I wrote, by basically saying the following:

“Hey Akira, you’ve said that Sheila was high-fiving someone. I’m now gonna make a ridiculously blown out of proportion statement about people agreeing that food is good are high-fiving each other, choosing to delicately ignore everything else that you said because it is much, much easier to act like a troll than to act like a civilized person.”

Essentially, that’s what I gleaned from your last post; you were metaphorically mooning me, to put it bluntly.

Yes, clearly Franker than Frank, my intention when I mentioned ‘high-fiving’ was to insult everyone who agreed that eating was good.

Clearly.

Okay, dipshit, stop playing around. Can’t find a reasonable way to respond to someone? Take the smallest part of their post and blow it up into a several paragraph statement at their character, and -then- look at me and expect me to not consider it some sort of personal attack? Oh, don’t worry; I’m already prepared for you to ignore this entire post to say ‘How dare you call me dipshit, using such foul language, I just can’t listen to people who use foul language.’ So, don’t get all excited when you post your response if you think you won some battle. I’ll reply, because I honestly have little else to do on truthdig until my faithie fun returns to the article I like to bicker on. You fall somewhere between going to sleep and reading the incoherent ramblings of a faithie…not that you are coherent.

Honestly it just….amazes me. I said a lot of stuff, but all that you could manage to say was something so bloody…-stupid- that I almost went cross eyed when I read it. Nilo said a few sentences and everyone was ready to shoot him down. So, I’ll bite; why the hell did no one else appear to notice what I say? Did everyone think that Franker than Frank was a genius that somehow ‘beat me’? Were they willing to let Franky Franks there say whatever garbage he could about me, but whine if someone on my side did the same to them?

...Alright, I’m too tired…and I don’t know if that was sensible or not, so don’t get your righteous panties in a twist if it isn’t. I’m still human enough to admit that I’m not perfect, especially at 1:40AM.

Nilroth claimed he had visited the Architects for 9/11 Truth web site and was familiar with Richard Gage’s presentation, but he must have drifted off like he did in 9th grade science class because he asked where the information came from that it would take only a few people to plant the necessary explosives.

I am sure there are any number of places you could get that information, but I first learned that recently from the interviews with demolition experts who are part of Mr. Gage’s presentation.

Nilo hasn’t posted in 8 hours, his shift must have ended.  He’ll probably be back at it (the disinformation campaign) bright and early again tomorrow. 

To anyone still trying to make up their mind on the basics, get off this forum and instead look at some of the resources I mentioned in my very first post. 

I am not easily fooled or misled, and had no interest in any so-called conspiracy theory up until 2 months ago.  Never investigated who killed JFK, MLK, Marilyn Monroe.  But 9/11—the evidence that this was an inside job is overwhelming.  And that evidence includes the attempt at a cover-up.

So what do we do now?  Now that we know our govt is run by cold-blooded killers?  If all the millions of us that know the truth converged on DC, I bet we could raise a ruckus.

Nil,

Tell me this, then, since you have done so much more research on this issue than I have: what, according to you, is the real skinny on that passport of Mohammed Atta that survived an inferno powerful enough to melt steel came miraculously fluttering down from the sky? Are you asking me to believe that?

Also, what about these people with the same names as the hijackers who are still alive? Were their identities stolen, then? Or what? Tell me, I don’t know, I’m an empty vessel.

Tony

Franker than Frank:

You are a special kinda crazy aren’t you? Well, i would reply, but my NWO overlord told me if i actually answered your questions honestly, he was going to bust me down to private.

Sheila:

Nope, not paid to do this.  I am lucky enough to have a job that is lots of downtime punctuated with bouts of chaos.  I like to surf the web in the downtime.  Unlucky for you.  If there were 9/11 murderers, i have to admit that you are probably the last person they are worried about.  Lets see, you made what, 10 different statements that were either half truths or outright lies.  When pressed to respond to me pointing those lies out, the best you could muster was “I stand by my facts”, which you actually didn’t do, since you failed to ever back them up.  And in a strange twist of logic, you then claim that i am the one not interested in the truth.  No, i am quite interested in the truth, unlike you, who are just interested in conversing with people who have the same view as you of the events of 9/11.  Please do not pretend you are in search of the truth, you are doing everything you can to NOT search for the truth, and you are flat out refusing to engage in any sort of conversation about the truth.  The last thing you want is to encounter anything that could even remotely challenge your world view.  I personally find that sad. 

And unlike you, i have actually learned from this discussion.  You will notice that often i actually ask for information, i want it, if there is information out there that proves my views wrong, i would rather see it an evaluate it than pretend it doesn’t exist.  I just havn’t seen much to change my opinion.  However, I had never heard of the Dov Zakim issue before PatrickHenry brought it up, so that was enjoyable for me to research that.  And i am rather excited to find that there is an Aegis cruiser stationed in Washington since that is only about 150 miles from me, and i have never seen one before. They are incredible pieces of technology. 

Tony Wicher:

The arguments i have against controlled demo are not that i think it is preposterous to believe the government would do it.  My arguments are based on the finding of the people who have studied the events, the plausibility of the ways the events could have happened, the physical evidence left from the attacks, and the reasonableness of the theories, and how well they fit the facts. 

If you are truly interested in doing some research, might i suggest http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home , he is currently adding a new section that will be linked right at the top of the page for people new to the issues he covers.  http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/ is also a good site, their search feature is quite good for finding info quickly and easily.  And finally, the James Randi Foundation’s message boards have a whole board dedicated to conspiracies.  http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

I like that one a lot, since it is a board of nothing but skeptics who want more than a statement, they want proof.  Tough board to BS on, but it keeps people honest. 

Those are my 3 favorites, although there are more out there. 

Okay, i am clocking out for the night, see you all when i get back here to NWO headquarters in the morning.

Nil,

I have the same faith in my sources as you do in yours.

The 9/11 commission is the new age version of the Warren commission. 

For every debunking site there are 3 or 4 9/11 truth sites with experts in aviation, engineering, investigative journalism, who, in private enterprise are usually brighter than their government counterparts, especially Bush government counterparts.

9/11 was a extraordinary event which begs qui bono?
It requires an exraordinary in depth investigation with access to all files and all information available to experts on both sides of the debate….I don’t want to hear that information is classified and cannot be released, especially when many questions surrounding this event are so important to the people, yet go unanswered.  Who are the secrets being held from?

9-11 could have been easier to put together than you think.

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2774.htm

Re: #109419 by niloroth

First off, I am not mixing issues at all. You are simply playing the disingenuous role.

I have a couple of other questions for you.

1. What is your govt classification?

2. What is your rank?

3. How many other agents like yourself are in your unit?

4. Do you all sit in a large room somewhere in Washington in little cubbyholes working your Internet disinfo campaign on 911 issues for a full 8 hour day, or do you do it in the comfort of your own homes? 

5. Do you actually suppose that you and that army of disinfo agents working your feverish little fingers to the bone for the government can really, really stem the tide of the truth about 911 by simply continuing to deny it on Internet message boards?

6. Are you, “niloroth,” the best the government has to offer at your level of function?

  If so, should I: 1) be worried that other government functions up and down the line are also staffed by grossly incompetent agents; 2) put my head between my legs and kiss my ass goodbye as the government goes to hell in a handbasket; 3) just go ahead and accept Israel as my government and savior and pretend that I am a Palestinian?

I am retired presently, but I am ecstatic that I made my living honestly and never took anything from my fellow man through lying, cheating, deceitfullness, subterfuge and just plain damned evil design as you folks are doing presently with respect to 911. Indeed, I not only have never taken anything by subterfuge, but I have actually contributed to mankind with my works.

When you and your bunch retire, you can say, “I did my best to thieve and rob mankind of the truth.” 

It’s not much of a distinction.

“If one just uses one’s eyes to watch those buildings fall without listening at the same time to the government telling you what you are seeing, then there is no way you are going to see anything but deliberate, controlled demolitions.”

I totally agree Tony.  When I first saw the buildings fall, I was shocked, and not just because they were coming down.  It was the WAY they were coming down, as if they were just crumbling into dust, from top to bottom, as if they were props from a movie set, not massive steel and concrete buildings designed to withstand hurricane force winds even with a third of their exterior columns removed!

As Sophia Smallstorm points out in her video “9/11 Mysteries,” some photos and videos of the collapses make it clear that debris is flying UP and OUT from the building.  Can a simple collapse cause debris to go up?  Not in my universe. 

Niloroth, go away.  I’m starting to think you’re a paid troll.  After all, what we’re doing here is exactly what the 9/11 murderers are most afraid of:  exchanging information in a forum where there is no gatekeeper.  I bet you get $12.50/hour to reflexively disagree with all statements that threaten the official story.  It’s clear you have no interest in the truth.

Re #109589 by niloroth on 10/25 at 3:22 pm

Nil,

I don’t think I know enough to be sure. In fact, I seem to be the only one on this thread who isn’t sure - one way or another. Unlike you, I don’t reject the hypothesis of controlled demolition as preposterous, and unlike the 9-11 truthers, I admit I don’t know enough to say that these collapses could not possibly have happened without them. I have been reading these posts to try to help me decide. Unfortunately, I get a lot more heat than light out of both sides. I do believe the 9-11 commission was a bad joke, and I smell a big coverup. I think this administration is capable of anything.

As far as I can see, the only argument you have against controlled demolition is that it is preposterous to believe our government would do such a thing. You have more faith in them than I do.

Tony Wicher:

WTC 7 was hit, i think even most of the truthers and their websites are beginning to acknowledge that.  It was hit by the debris from WTC 1.  There is evidence of this, i am curious how you have decided that it was untouched.

Where do you get the idea that it would only take a small number of people to set those charges?  That goes against the opinions of every person who works in controlled demolition who has commented on this topic.  The only people who seem to hold that opinion are conspiracy theorists with zero experience in controlled demolitions. 

And you are so sure it was controlled demolitions, and that the towers falling were clearly evidence of that.  How do you know that?  Can you show me any evidence/pictures/video of 110 story buildings being demolished other than the WTC’s?  You must have seen this before to be so sure of your opinion.

#108698 by Bob Greenberg on 10/21 at 9:50 pm

Hm, I guess we’ll have to build exact duplicate of the old World Trade towers and fly some planes into them to satisfy the requirements of science. But what about WTC 7? We would also have to build one of those and see if it would also collapse in the same way several hours later without ever being hit. Tell you what, I’ll bet the farm it wouldn’t.

Wikopedia has an interesting entry on Phillip Agee.  I have to correct a few things I wrote after reading it.  Agee was in Ecuador and Uruguay, not Bolivia.  And, apparently, he does not have to stay in Cuba, but is married to a German ballet dancer and they make their home in Germany, but do also spend considerable time in Cuba.

Re #109519 by Paul Fretheim on 10/25 at 8:51 am
(7 comments total)

“So could these people actually be evil enough to have been involved with the events of 9/11/2001?  Sadly the historical record amply supports a conclusion of “yes.”
————————& #8212;———————R 12;———————— —
Paul,

I agree and I’m not a paranoid person. Once one accepts the possibility that democracy has been completely undermined, that psychopaths who will stop at nothing have siezed the reigns of power, that the military budget is totally out of control and that billions and billions are going into black ops, then there is nothing incredible about a 9-11 conspiracy.

If one just uses one’s eyes to watch those buildings fall without listening at the same time to the government telling you what you are seeing, then there is no way you are going to see anything but deliberate, controlled demolitions. It would take only a small number of people to place those charges and to set them off by remote control. If you can show me a single picture or any other acceptable evidence of any steel-structure building collapsing that way without being intentionally demolished, I might change my mind.

These are not nice people.

Another historic reference along these lines would be that Prescott Bush, the current President’s grandfather, ran a banking syndicate that loaned the money to fund many enterprises in in Nazi Germany, including Krupp Steel, which made the steel for tanks and H.G. Farben, the company, that, among other things, manufactured the poison gas that was used at Aushwitz and other death camps.  You can read about that in Kevin Phillips’s “An American Dynasty.”

So could these people actually be evil enough to have been involved with the events of 9/11/2001?  Sadly the historical record amply supports a conclusion of “yes.”

It’s been over 30 years since I read Agee’s book in its entirety.  I bought a used copy a couple of years ago, but the writing style is dense, to put it mildly, and I decided I should read more contemporary stuff instead.

So I can’t give details of specific instances, but the tactics ran the full gamut from buying the newspapers outright to bribing reporters and editors to placing individuals at the papers to threats to killings to firebombings, you name it.  If a newspaper came out for progressive causes it was targeted with the full range of tactics until it was silenced.  The amount of money available appeared to be limitless.

A more contemporary book, published just a couple of years ago that gives a comprehensive look into the black operations of the CIA and its progeny from the Dulles Brothers up to just before 9/11 is “Prelude to Terror: the Rogue CIA, The Legacy of America’s Private Intelligence Network the Compromising of American Intelligence” by Joseph Trento

Trento’s book details how the U.S. Intelligence community evolved over time into what amounts to a huge organized crime network.  The Bush family has been involved for generations.  The CIA started to go “off budget” with operations like “Air America” which was started ostensibly to transport men and supplies to Laos and Camobodia for the secret war during Viet Nam.  The temptation to run drugs became irresistible.  Why come back empty from the Golden Triangle when huge profits were available to help fund the effort to bring “freedom” to the world?  So the drug running began in earnest.

Then something had to be done with all the profits, so the black ops money started to be used to fund entire business ventures such as international shipping companies that got the contracts to move the American Military to and from theater whenever wars occurred.  This sort of operation has morphed into the Halliburtons of today.  One of the most shocking and revealing stories detailed in Trento’s book were the events leading up to the assassination of Anwar Sadat in Egypt.

Sadat was feeling his oats, so to speak, and was audacious enough to put regulations in place that required a shipping company he had set up be used for a certain percentage of defense shipping that transited through Egypt.  This was cutting into the profits of the off budget black ops shipping company that was used to making 100-200% profits off the U.S. taxpayers for moving our war machine around the planet. 

So the gang of black ops thugs made some deals with members of the Muslim Brotherhood and Sadat was machine gunned down by his own troops as he stood on a reviewing stand along with many other members of his government in one of the bloodiest and gory incidents ever broadcast on American television.  I still am haunted by the look on one of his minister’s face, still standing, and still alive, as he held his bowels in his hands after his abdomen was ripped apart in the hail of machine gun fire.

It is that sort of absolutely without conscience mass murder for profit that is the hall mark of these people.  And one of the most incredible aspects of the story is how few individuals were involved.  The same names keep coming up from the actions in the 50s through the Bay of Pigs and the Kennedy assassination and the Watergate burglary through the assassination of Sadat and numberless operations in between including the Contras and the mass murders in Central America in the 80s.  And the Bush family keeps coming up too, from owning sugar plantations in western Cuba that motivated Bay of Pigs to ownership of United Fruit that motivated the Central American slaughter.

“Supposedly we have a free press here in the US, why don’t they cover this story?  You see from the number of comments to this A/V post on Truthdig, compared to other A/V posts, that there is fervent interest in this subject.”

Hopefully, they aren’t covering this because they are busy covering REAL stories.  And i have a feeling that if any reporter was reading this thread, they would not be getting a very strong impression of the validity of the truth movement.

Heavyrunner writes:

“when I read about the insane amount of effort and expense our government was exerting to control the press in Bolivia I asked myself the obvious question, “If they are doing all this in Bolivia, what must they be doing in Chicago (or any other U.S. media market)?”

I am not surprised that the corporate media is complicit in failing to publicize the obvious untruths of the official narrative of 9/11/2001.

But I have trouble understanding why progressive news outlets like Democracy Now! are not more receptive to having guests like Richard Gage on their shows.”

Can you fill us in a bit on how the CIA controlled the Brazilian press?  This issue of the press is a biggie with me.  I read “Towers of Deception:  The Media Coverup of 9/11” hoping for more ilumination than I got.  Cause there sure is a big dark void where coverage of the 9/11 questions should be.

Supposedly we have a free press here in the US, why don’t they cover this story?  You see from the number of comments to this A/V post on Truthdig, compared to other A/V posts, that there is fervent interest in this subject.

Myronh:

Yes, i am familiar with the book.  Their criticisms have everything to do with the political side of the events.  I have been arguing the evidence that the towers fell as the NIST claimed they did.  I am sure there was a lot of a** covering in washington after the attacks.  I would be more surprised if their wasn’t.  But none of this points to our government actively planning the events of 9/11, and certainly not that the collapses were controlled in any way.

Our engineers know how the buildings collapsed, I don’t think you have to worry about antiquated formulas.  As far as the bridges, well, if you cut infrastructure funding and soak up all the excess money in a disaster of a war, then things like that happen.  It is a shame, and a good reason for all of us to remember to hit the poles every election.

Heavy runner:

so, in other words, if the “preposterous” combinations of event had happened, the start of the building collapse would look something like this?
http://www.debunking911.com/wtc-southtower.jpg

The steel did weaken, there is no proof the fire had a limited oxygen supply, the building angled over, and then toppled. 

As for the rest of your post, while there was much damage, the building did not turn to dust.  The building did not fall anywhere near free fall speed.  They took over at least 15 seconds, about 6.5 seconds over free fall.  And the building was not blown out around the foundation.  It is very clear from EVERY picture of the collapse that debris is falling off all around the building.  (and falling faster than the collapse, thereby either breaking the laws of physics, or proving the free fall theory wrong) That is to be expected if the cause of the collapse is the top of the building falling on the rest of it, but not if it is being demoed.  And seriously, do you have any idea how much explosive it would take to blow the building and it’s debris both upward and outwards?  Aside from the fact that there is no photographic or video evidence of anything blowing either up or out. 

And i have to think that the reason places like democracy now don’t have these people on is because they really have nothing to say that can’t be very obviously and easily debunked.

niloroth,

Yes I read the Commission Report. Remember what I said about unerfunding? The Co-Chairmen obviously believe their report is lacking. $40 million was expended by the Republicans to try to get Clinton. GWB only alocated $3 million initially for investigation of 9/11. If I was Bill I would really be proud. Apparently his sex-life is more important to the American people than knowing exactly what happened on 9/11. I would certainly like to know exactly how 9/11 came about; but we should all want to know how the Trade Centers and #7 colapsed into a small pile of rubble. Are our Structural Engineers using antiquated formulas? If so, our entire intrastructure may be at the verge of complete colapse. We are busy worrying about another wave of Arabs with box-cutters, when we may really have something else much more serious. As an example: the failure of the I-35 Bridge in Minneapolis.

Don’t bother to waste anymore of your or my time until you read the following copy of an excert from Wiikepedia:
Commissioners believe the Commission was set up to fail
In their book “Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission” on their experience serving as co-chairs of the Commission, Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton devoted the first chapter on how they believed the Commission was set up for failure. Hamilton listed a number of reasons why they thought this, including the late start of the Commission and the very short deadline imposed; the insufficient funds, 3 million dollars, initially allocated for conducting such an extensive investigation (later the Commission requested and received additional funds, but the chairs still felt hamstrung); the many politicians who did not want the Commission formed; the continuing resistance and opposition to the work of the Commission by many politicians, particularly those who did not wish to be blamed for any of what happened; and the denial of access by various agencies to documents and witnesses. “So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail.” [13]

In 1975 Phillip Agee, a former CIA agent who worked in South America published an expose of the CIA entitled “Inside the Company - A CIA Diary.”  He is one of very few CIA agents who both had the courage to write about his activities and the activities of the “Company” and live to get his book published.  He has been living in Cuba for the past few decades, as it is one of the few places he is relatively safe from CIA assassination.

I read his book when it came out.  His writing style is horrible.  It is, perhaps, worse than a bad translation of Hegel, and that ain’t good.

But when I read about the insane amount of effort and expense our government was exerting to control the press in Bolivia I asked myself the obvious question, “If they are doing all this in Bolivia, what must they be doing in Chicago (or any other U.S. media market)?”

I am not surprised that the corporate media is complicit in failing to publicize the obvious untruths of the official narrative of 9/11/2001.

But I have trouble understanding why progressive news outlets like Democracy Now! are not more receptive to having guests like Richard Gage on their shows.

I have sent requests to Democracy Now! several times to have Richard Gage on as a guest, but I haven’t seen him on yet.

I am reading “The Shock Doctrine - The Rise of Disaster Capitalism” by Naomi Klein.  She argues that Free Market Capitalists have used the shock of disasters and the mass regression they cause in the public consciousness to force through their right wing agenda.

The truth about the disaster of 9/11/2001 is important.  It is important because if the lie of the official story can be revealed the shock to the public consciousness can be a catalyst to bring about commensurate progressive change.

Gravity and fire, if a kerosene fire with limited oxygen supply could burn hot enough to weaken steel, which it cannot, did start to weaken parts of the 100,000 ton steel infrastructure of each of the Twin Towers, the first effect would be to cause a sagging of some of the steel beams.  If that happened to enough of the beams at once, again, that is preposterous, but if it did, the building would start to lean over in the direction of the softened supports.  The rest of the steel would remain intact and retain its strength.

But if you watch the video it is clear that the entire buildings disintegrate into dust in a matter of seconds and then collapse at free fall speed.  Only explosives could cause this.  And if you look at an aerial photo of WTC site taken shortly after 9/11/2001 you can see that there is a big hole where the buildings were and the remains of the buildings are blown out around their former foundations in a circular pattern with a radius of about 800 feet.  The buildings did not fall down but were blown up and outward by planted explosives.

Recently it was announced by the Air Force that several colonels were relieved of their command over the incident where a B52 was flown from North Dakota to Louisiana with armed H-bombs on it by mistake.  No one was killed.  There was no property damage.

Why was no one in the military disciplined for the breakdowns in security, resulting in extensive damage to the Pentagon and thousands of deaths, that took place on 9/11/2001?

I would argue that some higher ups found the prospect of people defending themselves by stating “I was following orders” and the questions those assertions would generate unthinkable. 

So no one in the military was relieved of command or court-martialed for the most serious security breakdown ever in history.

Franker:

First off, you are mixing issues like crazy.  Yes, it was 18-20 Muslims armed with box cutters that wrought all that havoc on 9/11.  Well, actually, there were the people who financed them as well, and the people who helped them plan the attack, but i think you understand my point.  And they had some other things that helped them with the take over of the planes.  For one, no one had ever used hijacked airlines as weapons before 9/11.  In fact, in a lot of cases the passengers would end up alive and safe after the hijackers had either made their point, or traded hostages for something, or been killed.  The best bet for hostages before 9/11 was to not resist.  The hijackers also said that they had bombs, so saying they were armed only with box cutters is actually disingenuous. 

Now, As for the invasion of Iraq, that was all bush, manipulation of facts, and a congress that didn’t have the balls to ask for proof. 

So the answers to your question are 1) your question makes not sense, but you can refer to the box cutters however you want.  And 2) no.

Please try to make a bit more sense next time.

Myronh,

I actually go out of my way to not call or accuse people of being stupid.  Just a preference i have.  Mislead, ill informed, or ignorant (in the literal sense) yes, but i try not to call people stupid. 

I know you didn’t call anyone ignorant, or a lier, but i can’t reconcile your statement that:
“You can believe anything you want, but I will never believe the Report. I have worked with steel since 1953 and know how it reacts to heat, including
processes that are used to cut it. BELIEVE ME, JET-FUEL DOESN’T CUT IT.”
with the fact that the NIST has claimed it was fires started by the jet fuel and the structural damage that caused the collapse.  I guess i will just reiterate my question.

What caused the towers to come down, and why are so many people okay with the NIST publishing bad info?

You state:
“To be completely frank, there is no practical or economical way to learn how steel reacts to fire, unless you are the one that has actually designed and participated in those tests as an R&D;project.”

I am curious as to if you have actually read the NIST report?  They did in fact test the same types of steal that were in those fires, they reproduced entire floor trusses and then exposed them to fires, and they reported on the results.  It was not practical, but none the less they did it.  If you have not read it, you might find it far more in depth than you have been lead to believe.  In particular look over NIST NCSTAR 1-3 and 1-5.  (This is the NIST research, not the 9/11 Commission report)

Patrickhenry:

In a rather strange twist of irony, the bush administration was actually trying to reign this issue in.  The failures in accounting for trillions of dollars was not something that popped up from 2000 to 2001.  This was symptomatic of problems going back to at least the clinton administration. 

Will have to do more research onto the Aegis cruiser issue.  I never realized there was one continuously there, would actually be kinda cool to see one.  However, i think your statement of ample time to shoot down flight 77 might be a bit off.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/911timeline.htm

the time frame from the Indianapolis FAA becoming suspicious about flight 77, to the time that NORAD learned of it’s flight path was only about 16 minutes.  From that moment to the time flight 77 impacted the pentagon was only about 2 minutes. 
That is a very short amount of time for someone to issue a command to the captain of the cruiser to shoot down a commercial airliner, that may or may not be hijacked.  In other situations, maybe, but keep in mind the confusion and chaos of the day so far.

Re: #109375 by niloroth

niliroth wrote: “Okay, anyone else have any unsupportable theories they want to bring up?”

In fact I do have a couple of unsupportable theories among a hundred or so that I’d like to bring up, but I will name only one right now:

That is, “18-20 Muslim Arabs armed only with box cutters wrought all the havoc of 911, including that they caused the world’s greatest super power, with the mightiest military on earth, to invade Iraq in which said military has failed so far in the mission set out.”

Two questions aside: 1) Can we refer to these as “Omnipotent Muslims with Omnipotent Box Cutters?” 2) Did the boxcutters somehow cause the military debacle that followed their wielding?

When you wade through this one, I have a few other unsupportable theories I’d like to bring up.

Re: #109215 by Akira_Maritias

AKIRA seems to think that several people who agree with a common truth are doing nothing but “high fiving” one another. One would have to assume, then, that in order not to “high five” others, one must walk around disagreeing with every person one sees. Would this be a good statement of that case, Akira? 

What about not just several people, but the billions of them, that ALL agree that eating food is necessary to life? Are these all “high fiving” one another, too?

What about the hundreds of millions and possibly billions of people on earth that agree with one another that one plus one equal two? Are these simply
all “high fivers?”

What about every human being on the planet (that is of sound mind) that would agree that they need air to breathe in order to stay alive? This would even include you, I would assume. Would this mean that all human beings on earth are high fivers? If so, then isn’t this the same thing as saying, “All human beings are human beings?” Thus, the statement is reduced to absurdity.

There are literally too many things to name that billions upon billions of people commonly agree upon as being prima facie truths, in which you are undoubtedly in the midst of them all. Are you a high fiver junky like all these billions, or are you only de jedge and none of what you say about others applies to yourself? If so, you are not at all unique as I know a lot of other folks like you and you should all get together and start a special “high fiver’s” group of your own.

niloroth,

I never implied it was stolen, I said it was unaccounted for. Apparently since the Bush presidency, just another coincidence.

I am a building trades project manager in Washinton D.C. and am in and out of most of the buildings or come in contact with other trades project managers on a day to day basis bidding work.  You will be able to see the Aegis cruiser from the new National’s stadium.  It has been there every day for the past 10 years I assure you.  It can be seen by going over the Fredrick Douglas bridge.

Being a tradesman in D.C. means your one of the most investigated people alive.  If you work in the FBI you get cleared, RR bldg..cleared, White house ..cleared and fingerprinted, AOC, ATF and on and on.  Sometimes all in the same month, insane.

You get to hit the gas and watch the lobbists scurry when you transit Capitol Hill in your service truck, a perk.

niloroth,
I don’t care if you believe me or not. You accuse others of being stupid and not having all the facts. You said that my statements imply that the technical people at NIST and UL are either ignorant or lying. If you can read, I didn’t call anyone a liar or ignorant. What I failed to say is that no one that I know of has enough experience with thick steel to make the claim that the steel failed as a result of jet-fuel fire. Unfortunately, a PHD in metallurgy does not equate to actual experience of working with and experimenting with thick steel. To be completely frank, there is no practical or economical way to learn how steel reacts to fire, unless you are the one that has actually designed and participated in those tests as an R&D;project. Todays rush to profitability eliminates most R&D;projects of which I had the opportunity to learn from. I would be willing to provide numerous references for my qualification as a steel expert. However. I would first need to see your qualifications before I would waste any more time on one that is so positive of their convictions.

You also questioned my statement regarding a limited supply of oxygen. Again you may have a limited knowledge of steel heating processes. For the reader’s information: whenever, a gas-type form of fuel is used to heat steel, a supply of oxygen (beyond what is supplied by Mother Nature)is added under pressure to increase the temperature of the flame. Have you ever seen the DO NOT SMOKE Warning Label on a tank of medical use oxygen?

Jan,

What energy source?  Hmm, I don’t know, what could do all that damage, maybe, um, Gravity and the weight of the building falling on top of the other floors?  That is always discounted by the truthers.  And where are you getting this whole pulverized thing?  There were a great many large pieces of the buildings after they fell.  And about that whole pancake collapse issue, where and when did the NIST endorse that theory as the cause of the collapse?  I know you can go to their website, do a search for pancake, and the only link you will get have this quote in it: “NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse”  So there is another lie from the truth movement.

Any links to those surveys that show 80% of people don’t believe the official story?  Preferably ones that are not on the loose change website?  There was no stand down order.  http://www.911myths.com/html/stand_down.html
Again, more half truths from the truthers.

PatrickHenry:

There were no stingers on the whitehouse.  Do a quick search for Richard Clarke, and missle defenses.  He was the counter terrorism official for clinton and bush jr.  He wanted them, but the treasury decided it was too costly.

Not sure about your Aegis theory.  Have a link?  First i have heard of it. 

As for your trillion missing dollars, it was actually about 2.3 trillion, and as opposed to what you have been lead to believe, it was not stolen.  The people who were working on finding it were not all killed, and in fact, during Zakim’s tenure, the amount went from 2.3 trillion, to 600 billion.  The money was never gone, it was never stolen, what it was was lost in a maze of different accounting and software systems.  It was all still there, they were just working on making the accounting system more streamlined.  Had you done any real research on this, you would know that.  Try http://www.911myths.com/html/rumsfeld__9_11_and__2_3_t rilli.html

Okay, anyone else have any unsupportable theories they want to bring up?

niloroth,

There is an Aegis class missile crusier that sits at Washington Navy yard 24/7, 12 month a year.  It is the de facto missile shield for Washington D.C. that I know of, aside from the stingers on the White House roof.

The pentagon is a mere 5 miles away.  This crusier had ample time and capability to aquire and shoot down the airliner (missile) that hit the pentagon while It was miles out.  Why didn’t it.

Funny thing, the auditors, CPA’s and bookkeepers who would have had knowledge of where the 2 trillion unaccounted for defense dollars went during Dov Zakim’s tenure, were sadly killed in that explosion.

sheila,

feel free to doubt my positive intent.  After all, all i have done is correct factual errors of yours.  I can see how that makes me a very very bad person, what with wanting evidence for things people say. 

After all, it’s not like you are claiming that the government, and 1,000’s of people got together to hatch and carry out a plan to kill over 3,000 of their fellow countrymen, and then backing it up with lies and half truths.

Oh yeah, you are.

your facts are lies.  Prove me wrong.  Even on one.

Niloroth, I stand by my facts, and I doubt your positive intent in this discussion.

Sheila

Anywho…Sheila.

“Akira, since I asked Niloroth about his motivations for being on this forum, (which he refuses to give) I will share mine.”

Okay…I don’t care much about Niloroth. He ain’t my ‘posse’. He could slap me on the back, but I probably won’t be doing much congratulatin’ unless he finds something that I haven’t found yet. I’ve shared my motivations, however, so thank you for sharing your own.

“They are dual.  One is that I think it is essential to get this information to as many people as possible before we have another false flag attack, martial law is declared, and we lose the right to free speech (in the name, of course, of national security.) I feel a sense or urgency about that.”

No you don’t. If you did, truthdig would be the -last- place to go. You would be trying to get on national news. You would be passing out flyers. You would have your own website, which is dedicated to sending messages to every e-mail address it can find. If it was truly urgent and you truly believed that the government was trying to take us down and make us obedient dogs, you would be doing everything in your power to stop it. This is a truthdig message board; read by maybe 10 or 12 people, almost 100% of which -completely- agree with you. Take a look around. Me and Niloroth are the only ones that have actively spoken against what you are saying. Has the message been passed on? Doubtfully. You’ll reach one or two people, maybe. This does nothing more but quell that ache in your heart; it makes you -feel- like you made a difference.

“The other is to connect with like-minded people.  I feel very alone as I live in a conservative area and deal on a daily basis with CIA officers, former Navy Seals, defense contractors.  Needless to say they dont’ want to hear this, they think I’m just out to bash Bush.”

Well, you’ve certainly connected with like-minded people. Needless to say, that is nothing more than a comfort for you. Strengthens the feeling that you are right, erases doubt…makes you become cold and brash to the other side (see my other new post regarding Mr. Troll truther there).

“So yes, it is important to me to know that I am not the only one who can believe their own eyes.  If that looks like high-fiving to you, that’s okay with me.  Just recognize it as the relief we feel when we encounter another person who sees reality clearly, after spending long days with people lost in the Matrix.”

Another sci-fi reference! Damn, I don’t even know if I should take this seriously, or if I should grab my gorram Serenity copy and see if I can find some more fun quotes.

All minor joking aside, I know that it feels good to be right. I know that nothing feels better than to be surrounded by people that agree with you. It’s a safety bubble; an artificial womb. But you -must- understand that as good as it feels to be safe, without danger, life is dull. Every now and then, it feels good to be surrounded by people that disagree with you, even -hate- you for what you think. Surround yourself with friends for too long, and you’ll start to behave like a pack. Behave like a pack, and you’ll lose all respect and desire for peace with the other side. Pack dominance, and all that jazz. You’ll see it as someone attacking you, trying to take you down, being stupid, being lied to, whatever the case calls for.

It is important to look past their ideals, and look at the person all on their own. Bush? He’s evil at the core. Me? I would like to -think- that I’m not foul and stupid on the inside, hell, a few faithies and atheists consider me to be smart, although Mr. troll here is convinced that I’m dumber than dumb. Some browsing on truthdig turned up an interesting brawl between Cyrena and someone else; apparently she was lying about someone else behind their back. So, maybe you should do a little digging before you find someone to be good, non? After all, not everything is black and white; there are shades of grey.

(note: my last post was just barely murdered by truthdig. Truthdig has an odd tendency to tear apart messages from time to time, and I apologize for the space wasting inconvenience.)

First, a fun troll post. Then, I’ll get serious and respond to Sheila, who has been surprisingly worthwhile to talk to (i.e, she isn’t CRAZY!)

“Akira Maritias your pseudonym is so ludicrous and your lack of intelligence is so risible you should get off the air.”

As in…stop breathing? ‘Cause honestly, I don’t have a TV show, nor am I broadcasting through radio. Get your insults straight before you mock my intelligence; it makes you look bad. Or funny, I can’t tell the difference. Stupid, remember?

The pseudonym I chose has nothing to do with what I say. ‘Akira’ merely because of an idea that had been floating around my head for 7 years; an idea that got the name ‘Akira’ which I didn’t even know was a real name, that ironically means ‘intelligent’. ‘Maritias’ because that idea needed a second name; I’m pretty certain it doesn’t mean anything, since both names came from me choosing a first letter, then choosing what sounded good rolling off the tongue. But, I guess that once you run out of ways to insult someone, it’s always fun (and smart looking) to insult someone because of their name. Really, you look like a genius. Opening by saying that my pseudonym is ludicrous? Honestly I am -humbled- by your sheer kindness, wisdom, and clear superiority over me. Dad used to tell me that there are some real nutjobs online; the type that would track you down and physically attack you if they knew who you were. I guess you’re the sort of person my dad was talkin’ about.
“Get some intelligent person to parse your comment before issuing them.”

No.

In fact, I have to wonder if you proof read your comments. Check ‘em over five or six times, then decide that they’re ready to go. I don’t. I let them fly. Do you know why? It’s exactly what I first thought, my very first reaction to the words being sent to me. At times, I won’t send it because the response I write up is so vulgar and senseless that I see no point to posting it. However, I never check them over. I never look back to see if they made sense, although I will post a warning at the end if I think they’ll be confusing. Do you know why? If my dumbass brain can make sense out of it on the first run, then your clearly superior brain ought to be able to decipher it. If you need it edited, then maybe you aren’t as smart as you thought?

Now, to move on to someone a little bit more serious, and a little less focused on personal attacks (Sheila? That was proof positive right there that your side has its’ crazies, too.)

First, a fun troll post. Then, I’ll get serious and respond to Sheila, who has been surprisingly worthwhile to talk to (i.e, she isn’t CRAZY!)

“Akira Maritias your pseudonym is so ludicrous and your lack of intelligence is so risible you should get off the air

Sheila,

My god, do you ever get anything right?  Steven E. Jones was not fired, he was placed on paid leave pending a hearing into the “increasingly speculative and accusatory nature” of his work, and the fact that there were serious concerns about the accuracy of his statements.  He retired before the hearings.  He was not in any way fired.  You are wrong again.

Kevin Ryan was fired not for what he said, but for attempting to make it seem like he was stating the position of the UL.  Had he made those statements on his own accord, there would have been no issue.  However, that is not what he did.  Add to that the fact that the UL does not certify steal at all, as he was attempting to make it appear, and the fact that he did not even work with metals at all at the UL, and you have very valid reason for him to be fired.  He lied, he misrepresented himself as a speaker for his employer, and he was talking about things he had no experience with.  I ask you (and i know you won’t answer, since you have failed to address any of the corrections i have made about your statements) would you keep someone employed who did all those things?

Your reading comprehension skills really leave much to be desired.  I mentioned why i was in this thread a few posts ago, and i clearly stated what my reasons for not believing in the truth movement are.  As for why i am still here, well, I hate to see ignorance flourish. 

So, i have now addressed multiple statements you have made, shown them to be lies and half truths, and answered every question you have asked.  DO YOU HAVE A RESPONSE TO ANYTHING I HAVE SAID?  This is how it always goes with you truthers, you make statements, you are proven wrong, you then move on to another false statement.  None of you ever have anything to say about the truth when it is cited to you.  I was really hoping that someone would break that cycle, but i guess not.

Typical.

Akira, since I asked Niloroth about his motivations for being on this forum, (which he refuses to give) I will share mine.

They are dual.  One is that I think it is essential to get this information to as many people as possible before we have another false flag attack, martial law is declared, and we lose the right to free speech (in the name, of course, of national security.)  I feel a sense or urgency about that.

The other is to connect with like-minded people.  I feel very alone as I live in a conservative area and deal on a daily basis with CIA officers, former Navy Seals, defense contractors.  Needless to say they dont’ want to hear this, they think I’m just out to bash Bush.

So yes, it is important to me to know that I am not the only one who can believe their own eyes.  If that looks like high-fiving to you, that’s okay with me.  Just recognize it as the relief we feel when we encounter another person who sees reality clearly, after spending long days with people lost in the Matrix.

The reason why we don’t see more physicists and engineers coming forward to say what Myron H. is saying is because some who have dared to question the official story have paid with their jobs. 

When Brigham Young University physics professor Steven E. Jones wrote a paper stating that the World Trade Center towers were most likely brought down by explosives, he was fired.

The same fate befell Kevin Ryan, a site manager for Underwriters Laboratories, the company that certified the steel used in the WTC towers.  He was fired after writing to NIST: “If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers.”

Myronh,

So in other words, you are saying that everyone at NIST, UL, and all the structural engineers and metal workers who don’t have any problems with the specifics of the report are lying?  Or are they just ignorant?  I don’t get it, if it was that obvious, why are there so many people who also work with metal that have no issues with the official story?  Why do you think it was only the jet fuel that was burning, and where is your evidence for a limited oxygen fire?

And if it wasn’t fire that brought the buildings down, what was it?  Are you one of those thermite/thermate people?

Sheila,

So, am i to assume that you are admitting that you were wrong about the items i pointed out, and that as such, your research into the other side of the 9/11 issue is lacking?

As for your question, i have already been through #2, it was a while ago, and i was truly stunned at the amount of lies and BS on the truther side. 

Hm, David Ray Giffin, yeah, i know of him, read through some of his book.  Remember that part where i said the truth movement was based on lies and half truths?  Yep, it applies to him as well.  http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/Ryan_Mackey_Griffin_NI ST_Review_1_1.pdf  Give that PDF a shot if you want to see a reasoned and full refutation on his book.  Lets see, 1) he has been proven wrong on his position on the airphones, and as far as i can tell, still hasn’t corrected himself. 2) he believes there were air defenses at the pentagon, against all evidence to the contrary. 3)lies about the technology involved with voice changing, and was called on it by the technologies inventory, but still refused to change his stance.

Yep, lets believe him.  The guy is a professor of philosophy and religion.  The person who wrote the PDF i linked to it a research scientist.  Who do you think has a better grasp of the issues?

Now really, who is being lied to here?  And who is swallowing it?

Here, want to do some real research? 
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home
Try going there.  Seriously, it is not hard to learn the truth, you just don’t want to.