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Bill Maher vs. ‘9/11 Truthers’

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Posted on Oct 21, 2007
Bill Maher showdown

The “Real Time” host became so frustrated with a couple of “9/11 Truthers” who infiltrated his audience Friday that he left the stage to personally oversee their expulsion. The fracas was so entertaining that HBO aired the entire incident on the West Coast feed, which could have easily been edited.

Watch it:

(via Largest Minority)

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By niloroth, October 26, 2007 at 2:00 pm Link to this comment

part the second.


Tony:

I will fully admit that the case of the passport seems rather manufactured on the face of it.  However, 2 things.
1) if a group of people were actually smart enough to pull this whole thing off, why would they be so dumb as to do something as stupid as walk up to a cop and hand it to him?  It doesn’t make sense. 
Many objects were recovered from the crashes.  Multiple passports, credit cards, seat cushions, multiple pieces of mail (that were then delivered), and other personal effects.  It is actually not that unique for things like this to survive crashes and explosions.  Hell, the space shuttle Columbia exploded miles in the air, and worms that were onboard for an experiment were found still in their containers, and alive afterwords.  (I suppose the columbia disaster was also a government plot.) http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts107_worms_030501.html

for further reading try http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/your-documents-please.html

2) As far as the hijackers still being alive, or the identities being wrong, this all comes from one story from the BBC that was written in 2001.  The BBC has recanted the story, and in fact written about the fact that they got it wrong.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html
Since then, there has been zero reports of these people still being alive.  Saudi Arabia has even admitted that most of the hijackers came from their country.  And again, if the people who did this were so smart, why not make the hijackers from afghanistan and Iraq, instead of a country we are supposed to be allies with?  If the idea was to go to was with Iraq, why not make them Iraqi?  That would make more sense.  But instead, they decided to not make Iraq suspect in any single point of the attacks?  This theory holds no weight. 
http://www.911myths.com/html/still_alive.html
that is a more in depth discussion on the claim that they are still alive. 

Sheila:

“I am not easily fooled or misled”

sorry, just had to post that again since it was so funny.  Your killing me here.  Really, any response to anything i have said yet?  Any counter point to any of my statements?  Anything?  Please?
Yeah, get a million of you walking around washington, that should show them.  I can see it now, one skeptic asks the group a question, and 1 million people simultaniously stop talking and try to ignore that anything has happened.  Ever.  In the history of the universe.

Okay, time to hit the road, It’s happy hour, and i hear Arafat is buying.  What, you thought he was dead?  No one on the NWO payroll ever dies.

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By niloroth, October 26, 2007 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment

Part Uno.

Well, that was a fun lunch meeting.  Who would have thought that Bob Barker was actually an alien?  I mean, i know David Icke outed Kris Kristofferson as a lizard man, but Bob Barker?  Wow.  Anyway, enough chit chat.

Heavyrunner:

I hope you caught my response dealing with aetruth.com.  Anyway, as soon as anyone in the truth movement does a single real life experiment to show how explosives could have been placed in the towers without anyone knowing, and then detonated them, maybe i will give them another thought.  As for Gage, look over my previous comments to see my opinion of his work.  And you mention demolition expertS.  Admittedly it has been a while since i have watched the presentation, but i seem to remember the only person Gage made reference to was Jowenko.  That is one expert, not experts.  Add to this, he was watching that footage for the first time, he had not actually studied the event.  While he made mention of the fact that while a few people could do it, he also says that it would be an ugly job, it would have to be quick, and the place would have to be cleared.  Add to that the fact that he explicitly states that the collapse is different than WTC 1 and 2.  And he is still to this day, as far as i know, the only demolitions expert to ever support the theory that WTC7 was demo’ed. 

No one has ever been able to point to any technology that could be hidden in the WTC’s, that is powerfull enough to cut through the steal, and could have been installed easily and quickly.  Which kinda makes the case for CD rather impossible.  Am i wrong?

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By niloroth, October 26, 2007 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

Oh boy, a bunch of things to reply to today.  I guess i should have skipped the early morning team building meeting here at the NWO headquarters.  Anyway, time to earn my paycheck.

PatrickHenry:

Yes, there are many truth sites, but i question your assertion that their experts are better than the ones on who do debunking.  Find me one actual peer reviewed article or journal by the truthers, and we can talk then.  And about the truther sites for professionals, Well, lets look at the numbers here.  According to http://news.thomasnet.com/IMT/archives/2007/06/the_state_of_architecture_construction_building_architects_in_america.html?t=recent
the American Institute of Architects places their membership at about 108,000 members.  ae911truth.org lists 66 architects, 11 of which they say they do not have proof of accreditation. 

And according to the information in
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20021015S0031
the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers state that the number of employed engineers in the second quarter of 2002 was 1,923,000.  (keep in mind that was just employed engineers) ae911truth lists 114 engineer members, with 36 without accreditation. 

Even giving them the benefit of the doubt on the members not proven, do you want to take a stab at what percentage the people on that site represent of their chosen line of work?  You really want anyone to take that site seriously?

That gives you %0.007 on the engineer side, and %0.07 on the architect side.  Not exactly a resounding majority.  Especially when there are many in the private sector who have taken their time to debunk any and all assertions that this very very small majority makes. 

And you state:
“I don’t want to hear that information is classified and cannot be released, especially when many questions surrounding this event are so important to the people, yet go unanswered.  Who are the secrets being held from?”

But then you link to a site that has an article the is from an anonymous source, about an anonymous person, and at an unnamed news organization.  Kinda a double standard. 

Well, i have more, be we have our friday lunch meeting in about 10 minutes.  On the down side, I think it is meatloaf again but on the plus side,  the presentation is by the free masons, and theose guys are great with powerpoint.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 25, 2007 at 10:39 pm Link to this comment

Hm….I got buried. Not that I mind too much if I get booted from this conversation, as it is oh so pleasant to begin with, but still. No one could manage a response to me? No, all that needed to be done was to see Nilo and proceed to peck at him…man, everyone said something to him.

I’m not including ‘Franker than Frank’s post as a reply, either. It was so…utterly insulting to replies everywhere that I feel sick just for reading it. I wrote up quite a bit of stuff…was it my admission to not being a self-called genius that turned you away, or the fact that it wasn’t easy to make me sound evil (and dumb)?

His post spit on everything I wrote, by basically saying the following:

“Hey Akira, you’ve said that Sheila was high-fiving someone. I’m now gonna make a ridiculously blown out of proportion statement about people agreeing that food is good are high-fiving each other, choosing to delicately ignore everything else that you said because it is much, much easier to act like a troll than to act like a civilized person.”

Essentially, that’s what I gleaned from your last post; you were metaphorically mooning me, to put it bluntly.

Yes, clearly Franker than Frank, my intention when I mentioned ‘high-fiving’ was to insult everyone who agreed that eating was good.

Clearly.

Okay, dipshit, stop playing around. Can’t find a reasonable way to respond to someone? Take the smallest part of their post and blow it up into a several paragraph statement at their character, and -then- look at me and expect me to not consider it some sort of personal attack? Oh, don’t worry; I’m already prepared for you to ignore this entire post to say ‘How dare you call me dipshit, using such foul language, I just can’t listen to people who use foul language.’ So, don’t get all excited when you post your response if you think you won some battle. I’ll reply, because I honestly have little else to do on truthdig until my faithie fun returns to the article I like to bicker on. You fall somewhere between going to sleep and reading the incoherent ramblings of a faithie…not that you are coherent.

Honestly it just….amazes me. I said a lot of stuff, but all that you could manage to say was something so bloody…-stupid- that I almost went cross eyed when I read it. Nilo said a few sentences and everyone was ready to shoot him down. So, I’ll bite; why the hell did no one else appear to notice what I say? Did everyone think that Franker than Frank was a genius that somehow ‘beat me’? Were they willing to let Franky Franks there say whatever garbage he could about me, but whine if someone on my side did the same to them?

...Alright, I’m too tired…and I don’t know if that was sensible or not, so don’t get your righteous panties in a twist if it isn’t. I’m still human enough to admit that I’m not perfect, especially at 1:40AM.

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By heaavyrunner, October 25, 2007 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment

Nilroth claimed he had visited the Architects for 9/11 Truth web site and was familiar with Richard Gage’s presentation, but he must have drifted off like he did in 9th grade science class because he asked where the information came from that it would take only a few people to plant the necessary explosives.

I am sure there are any number of places you could get that information, but I first learned that recently from the interviews with demolition experts who are part of Mr. Gage’s presentation.

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By Sheila Casey, October 25, 2007 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

Nilo hasn’t posted in 8 hours, his shift must have ended.  He’ll probably be back at it (the disinformation campaign) bright and early again tomorrow. 

To anyone still trying to make up their mind on the basics, get off this forum and instead look at some of the resources I mentioned in my very first post. 

I am not easily fooled or misled, and had no interest in any so-called conspiracy theory up until 2 months ago.  Never investigated who killed JFK, MLK, Marilyn Monroe.  But 9/11—the evidence that this was an inside job is overwhelming.  And that evidence includes the attempt at a cover-up.

So what do we do now?  Now that we know our govt is run by cold-blooded killers?  If all the millions of us that know the truth converged on DC, I bet we could raise a ruckus.

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By Tony Wicher, October 25, 2007 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

Nil,

Tell me this, then, since you have done so much more research on this issue than I have: what, according to you, is the real skinny on that passport of Mohammed Atta that survived an inferno powerful enough to melt steel came miraculously fluttering down from the sky? Are you asking me to believe that?

Also, what about these people with the same names as the hijackers who are still alive? Were their identities stolen, then? Or what? Tell me, I don’t know, I’m an empty vessel.

Tony

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By niloroth, October 25, 2007 at 7:28 pm Link to this comment

Franker than Frank:

You are a special kinda crazy aren’t you? Well, i would reply, but my NWO overlord told me if i actually answered your questions honestly, he was going to bust me down to private.

Sheila:

Nope, not paid to do this.  I am lucky enough to have a job that is lots of downtime punctuated with bouts of chaos.  I like to surf the web in the downtime.  Unlucky for you.  If there were 9/11 murderers, i have to admit that you are probably the last person they are worried about.  Lets see, you made what, 10 different statements that were either half truths or outright lies.  When pressed to respond to me pointing those lies out, the best you could muster was “I stand by my facts”, which you actually didn’t do, since you failed to ever back them up.  And in a strange twist of logic, you then claim that i am the one not interested in the truth.  No, i am quite interested in the truth, unlike you, who are just interested in conversing with people who have the same view as you of the events of 9/11.  Please do not pretend you are in search of the truth, you are doing everything you can to NOT search for the truth, and you are flat out refusing to engage in any sort of conversation about the truth.  The last thing you want is to encounter anything that could even remotely challenge your world view.  I personally find that sad. 

And unlike you, i have actually learned from this discussion.  You will notice that often i actually ask for information, i want it, if there is information out there that proves my views wrong, i would rather see it an evaluate it than pretend it doesn’t exist.  I just havn’t seen much to change my opinion.  However, I had never heard of the Dov Zakim issue before PatrickHenry brought it up, so that was enjoyable for me to research that.  And i am rather excited to find that there is an Aegis cruiser stationed in Washington since that is only about 150 miles from me, and i have never seen one before. They are incredible pieces of technology. 

Tony Wicher:

The arguments i have against controlled demo are not that i think it is preposterous to believe the government would do it.  My arguments are based on the finding of the people who have studied the events, the plausibility of the ways the events could have happened, the physical evidence left from the attacks, and the reasonableness of the theories, and how well they fit the facts. 

If you are truly interested in doing some research, might i suggest http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home , he is currently adding a new section that will be linked right at the top of the page for people new to the issues he covers.  http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/ is also a good site, their search feature is quite good for finding info quickly and easily.  And finally, the James Randi Foundation’s message boards have a whole board dedicated to conspiracies.  http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

I like that one a lot, since it is a board of nothing but skeptics who want more than a statement, they want proof.  Tough board to BS on, but it keeps people honest. 

Those are my 3 favorites, although there are more out there. 

Okay, i am clocking out for the night, see you all when i get back here to NWO headquarters in the morning.

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By PatrickHenry, October 25, 2007 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

Nil,

I have the same faith in my sources as you do in yours.

The 9/11 commission is the new age version of the Warren commission. 

For every debunking site there are 3 or 4 9/11 truth sites with experts in aviation, engineering, investigative journalism, who, in private enterprise are usually brighter than their government counterparts, especially Bush government counterparts.

9/11 was a extraordinary event which begs qui bono?
It requires an exraordinary in depth investigation with access to all files and all information available to experts on both sides of the debate….I don’t want to hear that information is classified and cannot be released, especially when many questions surrounding this event are so important to the people, yet go unanswered.  Who are the secrets being held from?

9-11 could have been easier to put together than you think.

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2774.htm

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By Franker than Frank, October 25, 2007 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment

Re: #109419 by niloroth

First off, I am not mixing issues at all. You are simply playing the disingenuous role.

I have a couple of other questions for you.

1. What is your govt classification?

2. What is your rank?

3. How many other agents like yourself are in your unit?

4. Do you all sit in a large room somewhere in Washington in little cubbyholes working your Internet disinfo campaign on 911 issues for a full 8 hour day, or do you do it in the comfort of your own homes? 

5. Do you actually suppose that you and that army of disinfo agents working your feverish little fingers to the bone for the government can really, really stem the tide of the truth about 911 by simply continuing to deny it on Internet message boards?

6. Are you, “niloroth,” the best the government has to offer at your level of function?

  If so, should I: 1) be worried that other government functions up and down the line are also staffed by grossly incompetent agents; 2) put my head between my legs and kiss my ass goodbye as the government goes to hell in a handbasket; 3) just go ahead and accept Israel as my government and savior and pretend that I am a Palestinian?

I am retired presently, but I am ecstatic that I made my living honestly and never took anything from my fellow man through lying, cheating, deceitfullness, subterfuge and just plain damned evil design as you folks are doing presently with respect to 911. Indeed, I not only have never taken anything by subterfuge, but I have actually contributed to mankind with my works.

When you and your bunch retire, you can say, “I did my best to thieve and rob mankind of the truth.” 

It’s not much of a distinction.

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By Sheila Casey, October 25, 2007 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment

“If one just uses one’s eyes to watch those buildings fall without listening at the same time to the government telling you what you are seeing, then there is no way you are going to see anything but deliberate, controlled demolitions.”

I totally agree Tony.  When I first saw the buildings fall, I was shocked, and not just because they were coming down.  It was the WAY they were coming down, as if they were just crumbling into dust, from top to bottom, as if they were props from a movie set, not massive steel and concrete buildings designed to withstand hurricane force winds even with a third of their exterior columns removed!

As Sophia Smallstorm points out in her video “9/11 Mysteries,” some photos and videos of the collapses make it clear that debris is flying UP and OUT from the building.  Can a simple collapse cause debris to go up?  Not in my universe. 

Niloroth, go away.  I’m starting to think you’re a paid troll.  After all, what we’re doing here is exactly what the 9/11 murderers are most afraid of:  exchanging information in a forum where there is no gatekeeper.  I bet you get $12.50/hour to reflexively disagree with all statements that threaten the official story.  It’s clear you have no interest in the truth.

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By Tony Wicher, October 25, 2007 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

Re #109589 by niloroth on 10/25 at 3:22 pm

Nil,

I don’t think I know enough to be sure. In fact, I seem to be the only one on this thread who isn’t sure - one way or another. Unlike you, I don’t reject the hypothesis of controlled demolition as preposterous, and unlike the 9-11 truthers, I admit I don’t know enough to say that these collapses could not possibly have happened without them. I have been reading these posts to try to help me decide. Unfortunately, I get a lot more heat than light out of both sides. I do believe the 9-11 commission was a bad joke, and I smell a big coverup. I think this administration is capable of anything.

As far as I can see, the only argument you have against controlled demolition is that it is preposterous to believe our government would do such a thing. You have more faith in them than I do.

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By niloroth, October 25, 2007 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher:

WTC 7 was hit, i think even most of the truthers and their websites are beginning to acknowledge that.  It was hit by the debris from WTC 1.  There is evidence of this, i am curious how you have decided that it was untouched.

Where do you get the idea that it would only take a small number of people to set those charges?  That goes against the opinions of every person who works in controlled demolition who has commented on this topic.  The only people who seem to hold that opinion are conspiracy theorists with zero experience in controlled demolitions. 

And you are so sure it was controlled demolitions, and that the towers falling were clearly evidence of that.  How do you know that?  Can you show me any evidence/pictures/video of 110 story buildings being demolished other than the WTC’s?  You must have seen this before to be so sure of your opinion.

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By Tony Wicher, October 25, 2007 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

#108698 by Bob Greenberg on 10/21 at 9:50 pm

Hm, I guess we’ll have to build exact duplicate of the old World Trade towers and fly some planes into them to satisfy the requirements of science. But what about WTC 7? We would also have to build one of those and see if it would also collapse in the same way several hours later without ever being hit. Tell you what, I’ll bet the farm it wouldn’t.

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By heaavyrunner, October 25, 2007 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

Wikopedia has an interesting entry on Phillip Agee.  I have to correct a few things I wrote after reading it.  Agee was in Ecuador and Uruguay, not Bolivia.  And, apparently, he does not have to stay in Cuba, but is married to a German ballet dancer and they make their home in Germany, but do also spend considerable time in Cuba.

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By Tony Wicher, October 25, 2007 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

Re #109519 by Paul Fretheim on 10/25 at 8:51 am
(7 comments total)

“So could these people actually be evil enough to have been involved with the events of 9/11/2001?  Sadly the historical record amply supports a conclusion of “yes.”
——————————————————————————
Paul,

I agree and I’m not a paranoid person. Once one accepts the possibility that democracy has been completely undermined, that psychopaths who will stop at nothing have siezed the reigns of power, that the military budget is totally out of control and that billions and billions are going into black ops, then there is nothing incredible about a 9-11 conspiracy.

If one just uses one’s eyes to watch those buildings fall without listening at the same time to the government telling you what you are seeing, then there is no way you are going to see anything but deliberate, controlled demolitions. It would take only a small number of people to place those charges and to set them off by remote control. If you can show me a single picture or any other acceptable evidence of any steel-structure building collapsing that way without being intentionally demolished, I might change my mind.

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By heavyrunner, October 25, 2007 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

These are not nice people.

Another historic reference along these lines would be that Prescott Bush, the current President’s grandfather, ran a banking syndicate that loaned the money to fund many enterprises in in Nazi Germany, including Krupp Steel, which made the steel for tanks and H.G. Farben, the company, that, among other things, manufactured the poison gas that was used at Aushwitz and other death camps.  You can read about that in Kevin Phillips’s “An American Dynasty.”

So could these people actually be evil enough to have been involved with the events of 9/11/2001?  Sadly the historical record amply supports a conclusion of “yes.”

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By heavyrunner, October 25, 2007 at 9:47 am Link to this comment

It’s been over 30 years since I read Agee’s book in its entirety.  I bought a used copy a couple of years ago, but the writing style is dense, to put it mildly, and I decided I should read more contemporary stuff instead.

So I can’t give details of specific instances, but the tactics ran the full gamut from buying the newspapers outright to bribing reporters and editors to placing individuals at the papers to threats to killings to firebombings, you name it.  If a newspaper came out for progressive causes it was targeted with the full range of tactics until it was silenced.  The amount of money available appeared to be limitless.

A more contemporary book, published just a couple of years ago that gives a comprehensive look into the black operations of the CIA and its progeny from the Dulles Brothers up to just before 9/11 is “Prelude to Terror: the Rogue CIA, The Legacy of America’s Private Intelligence Network the Compromising of American Intelligence” by Joseph Trento

Trento’s book details how the U.S. Intelligence community evolved over time into what amounts to a huge organized crime network.  The Bush family has been involved for generations.  The CIA started to go “off budget” with operations like “Air America” which was started ostensibly to transport men and supplies to Laos and Camobodia for the secret war during Viet Nam.  The temptation to run drugs became irresistible.  Why come back empty from the Golden Triangle when huge profits were available to help fund the effort to bring “freedom” to the world?  So the drug running began in earnest.

Then something had to be done with all the profits, so the black ops money started to be used to fund entire business ventures such as international shipping companies that got the contracts to move the American Military to and from theater whenever wars occurred.  This sort of operation has morphed into the Halliburtons of today.  One of the most shocking and revealing stories detailed in Trento’s book were the events leading up to the assassination of Anwar Sadat in Egypt.

Sadat was feeling his oats, so to speak, and was audacious enough to put regulations in place that required a shipping company he had set up be used for a certain percentage of defense shipping that transited through Egypt.  This was cutting into the profits of the off budget black ops shipping company that was used to making 100-200% profits off the U.S. taxpayers for moving our war machine around the planet. 

So the gang of black ops thugs made some deals with members of the Muslim Brotherhood and Sadat was machine gunned down by his own troops as he stood on a reviewing stand along with many other members of his government in one of the bloodiest and gory incidents ever broadcast on American television.  I still am haunted by the look on one of his minister’s face, still standing, and still alive, as he held his bowels in his hands after his abdomen was ripped apart in the hail of machine gun fire.

It is that sort of absolutely without conscience mass murder for profit that is the hall mark of these people.  And one of the most incredible aspects of the story is how few individuals were involved.  The same names keep coming up from the actions in the 50s through the Bay of Pigs and the Kennedy assassination and the Watergate burglary through the assassination of Sadat and numberless operations in between including the Contras and the mass murders in Central America in the 80s.  And the Bush family keeps coming up too, from owning sugar plantations in western Cuba that motivated Bay of Pigs to ownership of United Fruit that motivated the Central American slaughter.

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By niloroth, October 25, 2007 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

“Supposedly we have a free press here in the US, why don’t they cover this story?  You see from the number of comments to this A/V post on Truthdig, compared to other A/V posts, that there is fervent interest in this subject.”

Hopefully, they aren’t covering this because they are busy covering REAL stories.  And i have a feeling that if any reporter was reading this thread, they would not be getting a very strong impression of the validity of the truth movement.

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By Sheila Casey, October 25, 2007 at 8:34 am Link to this comment

Heavyrunner writes:

“when I read about the insane amount of effort and expense our government was exerting to control the press in Bolivia I asked myself the obvious question, “If they are doing all this in Bolivia, what must they be doing in Chicago (or any other U.S. media market)?”

I am not surprised that the corporate media is complicit in failing to publicize the obvious untruths of the official narrative of 9/11/2001.

But I have trouble understanding why progressive news outlets like Democracy Now! are not more receptive to having guests like Richard Gage on their shows.”

Can you fill us in a bit on how the CIA controlled the Brazilian press?  This issue of the press is a biggie with me.  I read “Towers of Deception:  The Media Coverup of 9/11” hoping for more ilumination than I got.  Cause there sure is a big dark void where coverage of the 9/11 questions should be.

Supposedly we have a free press here in the US, why don’t they cover this story?  You see from the number of comments to this A/V post on Truthdig, compared to other A/V posts, that there is fervent interest in this subject.

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By niloroth, October 25, 2007 at 8:05 am Link to this comment

Myronh:

Yes, i am familiar with the book.  Their criticisms have everything to do with the political side of the events.  I have been arguing the evidence that the towers fell as the NIST claimed they did.  I am sure there was a lot of a** covering in washington after the attacks.  I would be more surprised if their wasn’t.  But none of this points to our government actively planning the events of 9/11, and certainly not that the collapses were controlled in any way.

Our engineers know how the buildings collapsed, I don’t think you have to worry about antiquated formulas.  As far as the bridges, well, if you cut infrastructure funding and soak up all the excess money in a disaster of a war, then things like that happen.  It is a shame, and a good reason for all of us to remember to hit the poles every election.

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By niloroth, October 25, 2007 at 7:35 am Link to this comment

Heavy runner:

so, in other words, if the “preposterous” combinations of event had happened, the start of the building collapse would look something like this?
http://www.debunking911.com/wtc-southtower.jpg

The steel did weaken, there is no proof the fire had a limited oxygen supply, the building angled over, and then toppled. 

As for the rest of your post, while there was much damage, the building did not turn to dust.  The building did not fall anywhere near free fall speed.  They took over at least 15 seconds, about 6.5 seconds over free fall.  And the building was not blown out around the foundation.  It is very clear from EVERY picture of the collapse that debris is falling off all around the building.  (and falling faster than the collapse, thereby either breaking the laws of physics, or proving the free fall theory wrong) That is to be expected if the cause of the collapse is the top of the building falling on the rest of it, but not if it is being demoed.  And seriously, do you have any idea how much explosive it would take to blow the building and it’s debris both upward and outwards?  Aside from the fact that there is no photographic or video evidence of anything blowing either up or out. 

And i have to think that the reason places like democracy now don’t have these people on is because they really have nothing to say that can’t be very obviously and easily debunked.

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By Myronh, October 25, 2007 at 7:34 am Link to this comment

niloroth,

Yes I read the Commission Report. Remember what I said about unerfunding? The Co-Chairmen obviously believe their report is lacking. $40 million was expended by the Republicans to try to get Clinton. GWB only alocated $3 million initially for investigation of 9/11. If I was Bill I would really be proud. Apparently his sex-life is more important to the American people than knowing exactly what happened on 9/11. I would certainly like to know exactly how 9/11 came about; but we should all want to know how the Trade Centers and #7 colapsed into a small pile of rubble. Are our Structural Engineers using antiquated formulas? If so, our entire intrastructure may be at the verge of complete colapse. We are busy worrying about another wave of Arabs with box-cutters, when we may really have something else much more serious. As an example: the failure of the I-35 Bridge in Minneapolis.

Don’t bother to waste anymore of your or my time until you read the following copy of an excert from Wiikepedia:
Commissioners believe the Commission was set up to fail
In their book “Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission” on their experience serving as co-chairs of the Commission, Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton devoted the first chapter on how they believed the Commission was set up for failure. Hamilton listed a number of reasons why they thought this, including the late start of the Commission and the very short deadline imposed; the insufficient funds, 3 million dollars, initially allocated for conducting such an extensive investigation (later the Commission requested and received additional funds, but the chairs still felt hamstrung); the many politicians who did not want the Commission formed; the continuing resistance and opposition to the work of the Commission by many politicians, particularly those who did not wish to be blamed for any of what happened; and the denial of access by various agencies to documents and witnesses. “So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail.” [13]

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By heaavyrunner, October 24, 2007 at 9:53 pm Link to this comment

In 1975 Phillip Agee, a former CIA agent who worked in South America published an expose of the CIA entitled “Inside the Company - A CIA Diary.”  He is one of very few CIA agents who both had the courage to write about his activities and the activities of the “Company” and live to get his book published.  He has been living in Cuba for the past few decades, as it is one of the few places he is relatively safe from CIA assassination.

I read his book when it came out.  His writing style is horrible.  It is, perhaps, worse than a bad translation of Hegel, and that ain’t good.

But when I read about the insane amount of effort and expense our government was exerting to control the press in Bolivia I asked myself the obvious question, “If they are doing all this in Bolivia, what must they be doing in Chicago (or any other U.S. media market)?”

I am not surprised that the corporate media is complicit in failing to publicize the obvious untruths of the official narrative of 9/11/2001.

But I have trouble understanding why progressive news outlets like Democracy Now! are not more receptive to having guests like Richard Gage on their shows.

I have sent requests to Democracy Now! several times to have Richard Gage on as a guest, but I haven’t seen him on yet.

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By heaavyrunner, October 24, 2007 at 9:43 pm Link to this comment

I am reading “The Shock Doctrine - The Rise of Disaster Capitalism” by Naomi Klein.  She argues that Free Market Capitalists have used the shock of disasters and the mass regression they cause in the public consciousness to force through their right wing agenda.

The truth about the disaster of 9/11/2001 is important.  It is important because if the lie of the official story can be revealed the shock to the public consciousness can be a catalyst to bring about commensurate progressive change.

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By heaavyrunner, October 24, 2007 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

Gravity and fire, if a kerosene fire with limited oxygen supply could burn hot enough to weaken steel, which it cannot, did start to weaken parts of the 100,000 ton steel infrastructure of each of the Twin Towers, the first effect would be to cause a sagging of some of the steel beams.  If that happened to enough of the beams at once, again, that is preposterous, but if it did, the building would start to lean over in the direction of the softened supports.  The rest of the steel would remain intact and retain its strength.

But if you watch the video it is clear that the entire buildings disintegrate into dust in a matter of seconds and then collapse at free fall speed.  Only explosives could cause this.  And if you look at an aerial photo of WTC site taken shortly after 9/11/2001 you can see that there is a big hole where the buildings were and the remains of the buildings are blown out around their former foundations in a circular pattern with a radius of about 800 feet.  The buildings did not fall down but were blown up and outward by planted explosives.

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By heaavyrunner, October 24, 2007 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment

Recently it was announced by the Air Force that several colonels were relieved of their command over the incident where a B52 was flown from North Dakota to Louisiana with armed H-bombs on it by mistake.  No one was killed.  There was no property damage.

Why was no one in the military disciplined for the breakdowns in security, resulting in extensive damage to the Pentagon and thousands of deaths, that took place on 9/11/2001?

I would argue that some higher ups found the prospect of people defending themselves by stating “I was following orders” and the questions those assertions would generate unthinkable. 

So no one in the military was relieved of command or court-martialed for the most serious security breakdown ever in history.

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By niloroth, October 24, 2007 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

Franker:

First off, you are mixing issues like crazy.  Yes, it was 18-20 Muslims armed with box cutters that wrought all that havoc on 9/11.  Well, actually, there were the people who financed them as well, and the people who helped them plan the attack, but i think you understand my point.  And they had some other things that helped them with the take over of the planes.  For one, no one had ever used hijacked airlines as weapons before 9/11.  In fact, in a lot of cases the passengers would end up alive and safe after the hijackers had either made their point, or traded hostages for something, or been killed.  The best bet for hostages before 9/11 was to not resist.  The hijackers also said that they had bombs, so saying they were armed only with box cutters is actually disingenuous. 

Now, As for the invasion of Iraq, that was all bush, manipulation of facts, and a congress that didn’t have the balls to ask for proof. 

So the answers to your question are 1) your question makes not sense, but you can refer to the box cutters however you want.  And 2) no.

Please try to make a bit more sense next time.

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By niloroth, October 24, 2007 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment

Myronh,

I actually go out of my way to not call or accuse people of being stupid.  Just a preference i have.  Mislead, ill informed, or ignorant (in the literal sense) yes, but i try not to call people stupid. 

I know you didn’t call anyone ignorant, or a lier, but i can’t reconcile your statement that:
“You can believe anything you want, but I will never believe the Report. I have worked with steel since 1953 and know how it reacts to heat, including
processes that are used to cut it. BELIEVE ME, JET-FUEL DOESN’T CUT IT.”
with the fact that the NIST has claimed it was fires started by the jet fuel and the structural damage that caused the collapse.  I guess i will just reiterate my question.

What caused the towers to come down, and why are so many people okay with the NIST publishing bad info?

You state:
“To be completely frank, there is no practical or economical way to learn how steel reacts to fire, unless you are the one that has actually designed and participated in those tests as an R&D;project.”

I am curious as to if you have actually read the NIST report?  They did in fact test the same types of steal that were in those fires, they reproduced entire floor trusses and then exposed them to fires, and they reported on the results.  It was not practical, but none the less they did it.  If you have not read it, you might find it far more in depth than you have been lead to believe.  In particular look over NIST NCSTAR 1-3 and 1-5.  (This is the NIST research, not the 9/11 Commission report)

Patrickhenry:

In a rather strange twist of irony, the bush administration was actually trying to reign this issue in.  The failures in accounting for trillions of dollars was not something that popped up from 2000 to 2001.  This was symptomatic of problems going back to at least the clinton administration. 

Will have to do more research onto the Aegis cruiser issue.  I never realized there was one continuously there, would actually be kinda cool to see one.  However, i think your statement of ample time to shoot down flight 77 might be a bit off.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/911timeline.htm

the time frame from the Indianapolis FAA becoming suspicious about flight 77, to the time that NORAD learned of it’s flight path was only about 16 minutes.  From that moment to the time flight 77 impacted the pentagon was only about 2 minutes. 
That is a very short amount of time for someone to issue a command to the captain of the cruiser to shoot down a commercial airliner, that may or may not be hijacked.  In other situations, maybe, but keep in mind the confusion and chaos of the day so far.

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By Franker than Frank, October 24, 2007 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

Re: #109375 by niloroth

niliroth wrote: “Okay, anyone else have any unsupportable theories they want to bring up?”

In fact I do have a couple of unsupportable theories among a hundred or so that I’d like to bring up, but I will name only one right now:

That is, “18-20 Muslim Arabs armed only with box cutters wrought all the havoc of 911, including that they caused the world’s greatest super power, with the mightiest military on earth, to invade Iraq in which said military has failed so far in the mission set out.”

Two questions aside: 1) Can we refer to these as “Omnipotent Muslims with Omnipotent Box Cutters?” 2) Did the boxcutters somehow cause the military debacle that followed their wielding?

When you wade through this one, I have a few other unsupportable theories I’d like to bring up.

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By Franker than Frank, October 24, 2007 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Re: #109215 by Akira_Maritias


AKIRA seems to think that several people who agree with a common truth are doing nothing but “high fiving” one another. One would have to assume, then, that in order not to “high five” others, one must walk around disagreeing with every person one sees. Would this be a good statement of that case, Akira? 

What about not just several people, but the billions of them, that ALL agree that eating food is necessary to life? Are these all “high fiving” one another, too?

What about the hundreds of millions and possibly billions of people on earth that agree with one another that one plus one equal two? Are these simply
all “high fivers?”

What about every human being on the planet (that is of sound mind) that would agree that they need air to breathe in order to stay alive? This would even include you, I would assume. Would this mean that all human beings on earth are high fivers? If so, then isn’t this the same thing as saying, “All human beings are human beings?” Thus, the statement is reduced to absurdity.

There are literally too many things to name that billions upon billions of people commonly agree upon as being prima facie truths, in which you are undoubtedly in the midst of them all. Are you a high fiver junky like all these billions, or are you only de jedge and none of what you say about others applies to yourself? If so, you are not at all unique as I know a lot of other folks like you and you should all get together and start a special “high fiver’s” group of your own.

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By PatrickHenry, October 24, 2007 at 6:25 pm Link to this comment

niloroth,

I never implied it was stolen, I said it was unaccounted for. Apparently since the Bush presidency, just another coincidence.

I am a building trades project manager in Washinton D.C. and am in and out of most of the buildings or come in contact with other trades project managers on a day to day basis bidding work.  You will be able to see the Aegis cruiser from the new National’s stadium.  It has been there every day for the past 10 years I assure you.  It can be seen by going over the Fredrick Douglas bridge.

Being a tradesman in D.C. means your one of the most investigated people alive.  If you work in the FBI you get cleared, RR bldg..cleared, White house ..cleared and fingerprinted, AOC, ATF and on and on.  Sometimes all in the same month, insane.

You get to hit the gas and watch the lobbists scurry when you transit Capitol Hill in your service truck, a perk.

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By Myronh, October 24, 2007 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

niloroth,
I don’t care if you believe me or not. You accuse others of being stupid and not having all the facts. You said that my statements imply that the technical people at NIST and UL are either ignorant or lying. If you can read, I didn’t call anyone a liar or ignorant. What I failed to say is that no one that I know of has enough experience with thick steel to make the claim that the steel failed as a result of jet-fuel fire. Unfortunately, a PHD in metallurgy does not equate to actual experience of working with and experimenting with thick steel. To be completely frank, there is no practical or economical way to learn how steel reacts to fire, unless you are the one that has actually designed and participated in those tests as an R&D;project. Todays rush to profitability eliminates most R&D;projects of which I had the opportunity to learn from. I would be willing to provide numerous references for my qualification as a steel expert. However. I would first need to see your qualifications before I would waste any more time on one that is so positive of their convictions.

You also questioned my statement regarding a limited supply of oxygen. Again you may have a limited knowledge of steel heating processes. For the reader’s information: whenever, a gas-type form of fuel is used to heat steel, a supply of oxygen (beyond what is supplied by Mother Nature)is added under pressure to increase the temperature of the flame. Have you ever seen the DO NOT SMOKE Warning Label on a tank of medical use oxygen?

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By niloroth, October 24, 2007 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment

Jan,

What energy source?  Hmm, I don’t know, what could do all that damage, maybe, um, Gravity and the weight of the building falling on top of the other floors?  That is always discounted by the truthers.  And where are you getting this whole pulverized thing?  There were a great many large pieces of the buildings after they fell.  And about that whole pancake collapse issue, where and when did the NIST endorse that theory as the cause of the collapse?  I know you can go to their website, do a search for pancake, and the only link you will get have this quote in it: “NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse”  So there is another lie from the truth movement.

Any links to those surveys that show 80% of people don’t believe the official story?  Preferably ones that are not on the loose change website?  There was no stand down order.  http://www.911myths.com/html/stand_down.html
Again, more half truths from the truthers.

PatrickHenry:

There were no stingers on the whitehouse.  Do a quick search for Richard Clarke, and missle defenses.  He was the counter terrorism official for clinton and bush jr.  He wanted them, but the treasury decided it was too costly.

Not sure about your Aegis theory.  Have a link?  First i have heard of it. 

As for your trillion missing dollars, it was actually about 2.3 trillion, and as opposed to what you have been lead to believe, it was not stolen.  The people who were working on finding it were not all killed, and in fact, during Zakim’s tenure, the amount went from 2.3 trillion, to 600 billion.  The money was never gone, it was never stolen, what it was was lost in a maze of different accounting and software systems.  It was all still there, they were just working on making the accounting system more streamlined.  Had you done any real research on this, you would know that.  Try http://www.911myths.com/html/rumsfeld__9_11_and__2_3_trilli.html

Okay, anyone else have any unsupportable theories they want to bring up?

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By Jan, October 24, 2007 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Niloroth, re your post 109261, 10-24, 7:51 am

I see the collapse of the towers as this: What energy source could possibly have pulverized the 110 one acre floors, 4 inch thick, and also melted some parts of the core structure and vaporized the other parts in the ten seconds time it took to for the building to collapse. To vaporize steel it first has to boil, which means it was heated up over 3000deg C. The energy must have been able to penetrate all floors, to reach the uppermost floor. Do you have any suggestion as to what device could have been used to accomplish this? Jet fuel burning at the crash site could not have heat hot enough for this.

You wrote, quote: “I don’t get it, if it was that obvious, why are there so many people who also work with metal that have no issues with the official story?”  I have seen reports of surveys showing that over 80 percent of people believe the administration new about the attack was to happen but did nothing to stop it, if not orchestrated the whole thing. One fact supporting that is the stand down order of the Air Force, allowing the two planes to fly in over NYC to WTC. I know the 9/11 report is full of errors, for example, NIST have now admitted that the “pancake” collapse they first put out could not have happened, which was proven long time ago by the 911 truth scientists.

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By PatrickHenry, October 24, 2007 at 2:03 pm Link to this comment

niloroth,

There is an Aegis class missile crusier that sits at Washington Navy yard 24/7, 12 month a year.  It is the de facto missile shield for Washington D.C. that I know of, aside from the stingers on the White House roof.

The pentagon is a mere 5 miles away.  This crusier had ample time and capability to aquire and shoot down the airliner (missile) that hit the pentagon while It was miles out.  Why didn’t it.

Funny thing, the auditors, CPA’s and bookkeepers who would have had knowledge of where the 2 trillion unaccounted for defense dollars went during Dov Zakim’s tenure, were sadly killed in that explosion.

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By niloroth, October 24, 2007 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

sheila,

feel free to doubt my positive intent.  After all, all i have done is correct factual errors of yours.  I can see how that makes me a very very bad person, what with wanting evidence for things people say. 

After all, it’s not like you are claiming that the government, and 1,000’s of people got together to hatch and carry out a plan to kill over 3,000 of their fellow countrymen, and then backing it up with lies and half truths.

Oh yeah, you are.

your facts are lies.  Prove me wrong.  Even on one.

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By Sheila Casey, October 24, 2007 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment

Niloroth, I stand by my facts, and I doubt your positive intent in this discussion.

Sheila

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By Akira_Maritias, October 24, 2007 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

Anywho…Sheila.

“Akira, since I asked Niloroth about his motivations for being on this forum, (which he refuses to give) I will share mine.”

Okay…I don’t care much about Niloroth. He ain’t my ‘posse’. He could slap me on the back, but I probably won’t be doing much congratulatin’ unless he finds something that I haven’t found yet. I’ve shared my motivations, however, so thank you for sharing your own.

“They are dual.  One is that I think it is essential to get this information to as many people as possible before we have another false flag attack, martial law is declared, and we lose the right to free speech (in the name, of course, of national security.) I feel a sense or urgency about that.”

No you don’t. If you did, truthdig would be the -last- place to go. You would be trying to get on national news. You would be passing out flyers. You would have your own website, which is dedicated to sending messages to every e-mail address it can find. If it was truly urgent and you truly believed that the government was trying to take us down and make us obedient dogs, you would be doing everything in your power to stop it. This is a truthdig message board; read by maybe 10 or 12 people, almost 100% of which -completely- agree with you. Take a look around. Me and Niloroth are the only ones that have actively spoken against what you are saying. Has the message been passed on? Doubtfully. You’ll reach one or two people, maybe. This does nothing more but quell that ache in your heart; it makes you -feel- like you made a difference.

“The other is to connect with like-minded people.  I feel very alone as I live in a conservative area and deal on a daily basis with CIA officers, former Navy Seals, defense contractors.  Needless to say they dont’ want to hear this, they think I’m just out to bash Bush.”

Well, you’ve certainly connected with like-minded people. Needless to say, that is nothing more than a comfort for you. Strengthens the feeling that you are right, erases doubt…makes you become cold and brash to the other side (see my other new post regarding Mr. Troll truther there).

“So yes, it is important to me to know that I am not the only one who can believe their own eyes.  If that looks like high-fiving to you, that’s okay with me.  Just recognize it as the relief we feel when we encounter another person who sees reality clearly, after spending long days with people lost in the Matrix.”

Another sci-fi reference! Damn, I don’t even know if I should take this seriously, or if I should grab my gorram Serenity copy and see if I can find some more fun quotes.

All minor joking aside, I know that it feels good to be right. I know that nothing feels better than to be surrounded by people that agree with you. It’s a safety bubble; an artificial womb. But you -must- understand that as good as it feels to be safe, without danger, life is dull. Every now and then, it feels good to be surrounded by people that disagree with you, even -hate- you for what you think. Surround yourself with friends for too long, and you’ll start to behave like a pack. Behave like a pack, and you’ll lose all respect and desire for peace with the other side. Pack dominance, and all that jazz. You’ll see it as someone attacking you, trying to take you down, being stupid, being lied to, whatever the case calls for.

It is important to look past their ideals, and look at the person all on their own. Bush? He’s evil at the core. Me? I would like to -think- that I’m not foul and stupid on the inside, hell, a few faithies and atheists consider me to be smart, although Mr. troll here is convinced that I’m dumber than dumb. Some browsing on truthdig turned up an interesting brawl between Cyrena and someone else; apparently she was lying about someone else behind their back. So, maybe you should do a little digging before you find someone to be good, non? After all, not everything is black and white; there are shades of grey.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 24, 2007 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment

(note: my last post was just barely murdered by truthdig. Truthdig has an odd tendency to tear apart messages from time to time, and I apologize for the space wasting inconvenience.)

First, a fun troll post. Then, I’ll get serious and respond to Sheila, who has been surprisingly worthwhile to talk to (i.e, she isn’t CRAZY!)

“Akira Maritias your pseudonym is so ludicrous and your lack of intelligence is so risible you should get off the air.”

As in…stop breathing? ‘Cause honestly, I don’t have a TV show, nor am I broadcasting through radio. Get your insults straight before you mock my intelligence; it makes you look bad. Or funny, I can’t tell the difference. Stupid, remember?

The pseudonym I chose has nothing to do with what I say. ‘Akira’ merely because of an idea that had been floating around my head for 7 years; an idea that got the name ‘Akira’ which I didn’t even know was a real name, that ironically means ‘intelligent’. ‘Maritias’ because that idea needed a second name; I’m pretty certain it doesn’t mean anything, since both names came from me choosing a first letter, then choosing what sounded good rolling off the tongue. But, I guess that once you run out of ways to insult someone, it’s always fun (and smart looking) to insult someone because of their name. Really, you look like a genius. Opening by saying that my pseudonym is ludicrous? Honestly I am -humbled- by your sheer kindness, wisdom, and clear superiority over me. Dad used to tell me that there are some real nutjobs online; the type that would track you down and physically attack you if they knew who you were. I guess you’re the sort of person my dad was talkin’ about.

“Get some intelligent person to parse your comment before issuing them.”

No.

In fact, I have to wonder if you proof read your comments. Check ‘em over five or six times, then decide that they’re ready to go. I don’t. I let them fly. Do you know why? It’s exactly what I first thought, my very first reaction to the words being sent to me. At times, I won’t send it because the response I write up is so vulgar and senseless that I see no point to posting it. However, I never check them over. I never look back to see if they made sense, although I will post a warning at the end if I think they’ll be confusing. Do you know why? If my dumbass brain can make sense out of it on the first run, then your clearly superior brain ought to be able to decipher it. If you need it edited, then maybe you aren’t as smart as you thought?

Now, to move on to someone a little bit more serious, and a little less focused on personal attacks (Sheila? That was proof positive right there that your side has its’ crazies, too.)

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By Akira_Maritias, October 24, 2007 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

First, a fun troll post. Then, I’ll get serious and respond to Sheila, who has been surprisingly worthwhile to talk to (i.e, she isn’t CRAZY!)

“Akira Maritias your pseudonym is so ludicrous and your lack of intelligence is so risible you should get off the air

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By niloroth, October 24, 2007 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

Sheila,

My god, do you ever get anything right?  Steven E. Jones was not fired, he was placed on paid leave pending a hearing into the “increasingly speculative and accusatory nature” of his work, and the fact that there were serious concerns about the accuracy of his statements.  He retired before the hearings.  He was not in any way fired.  You are wrong again.

Kevin Ryan was fired not for what he said, but for attempting to make it seem like he was stating the position of the UL.  Had he made those statements on his own accord, there would have been no issue.  However, that is not what he did.  Add to that the fact that the UL does not certify steal at all, as he was attempting to make it appear, and the fact that he did not even work with metals at all at the UL, and you have very valid reason for him to be fired.  He lied, he misrepresented himself as a speaker for his employer, and he was talking about things he had no experience with.  I ask you (and i know you won’t answer, since you have failed to address any of the corrections i have made about your statements) would you keep someone employed who did all those things?

Your reading comprehension skills really leave much to be desired.  I mentioned why i was in this thread a few posts ago, and i clearly stated what my reasons for not believing in the truth movement are.  As for why i am still here, well, I hate to see ignorance flourish. 

So, i have now addressed multiple statements you have made, shown them to be lies and half truths, and answered every question you have asked.  DO YOU HAVE A RESPONSE TO ANYTHING I HAVE SAID?  This is how it always goes with you truthers, you make statements, you are proven wrong, you then move on to another false statement.  None of you ever have anything to say about the truth when it is cited to you.  I was really hoping that someone would break that cycle, but i guess not.

Typical.

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By Sheila Casey, October 24, 2007 at 9:38 am Link to this comment

Akira, since I asked Niloroth about his motivations for being on this forum, (which he refuses to give) I will share mine.

They are dual.  One is that I think it is essential to get this information to as many people as possible before we have another false flag attack, martial law is declared, and we lose the right to free speech (in the name, of course, of national security.)  I feel a sense or urgency about that.

The other is to connect with like-minded people.  I feel very alone as I live in a conservative area and deal on a daily basis with CIA officers, former Navy Seals, defense contractors.  Needless to say they dont’ want to hear this, they think I’m just out to bash Bush.

So yes, it is important to me to know that I am not the only one who can believe their own eyes.  If that looks like high-fiving to you, that’s okay with me.  Just recognize it as the relief we feel when we encounter another person who sees reality clearly, after spending long days with people lost in the Matrix.

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By Sheila Casey, October 24, 2007 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

The reason why we don’t see more physicists and engineers coming forward to say what Myron H. is saying is because some who have dared to question the official story have paid with their jobs. 

When Brigham Young University physics professor Steven E. Jones wrote a paper stating that the World Trade Center towers were most likely brought down by explosives, he was fired.

The same fate befell Kevin Ryan, a site manager for Underwriters Laboratories, the company that certified the steel used in the WTC towers.  He was fired after writing to NIST: “If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers.”

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By niloroth, October 24, 2007 at 8:51 am Link to this comment

Myronh,

So in other words, you are saying that everyone at NIST, UL, and all the structural engineers and metal workers who don’t have any problems with the specifics of the report are lying?  Or are they just ignorant?  I don’t get it, if it was that obvious, why are there so many people who also work with metal that have no issues with the official story?  Why do you think it was only the jet fuel that was burning, and where is your evidence for a limited oxygen fire?

And if it wasn’t fire that brought the buildings down, what was it?  Are you one of those thermite/thermate people?

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By niloroth, October 24, 2007 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

Sheila,

So, am i to assume that you are admitting that you were wrong about the items i pointed out, and that as such, your research into the other side of the 9/11 issue is lacking?

As for your question, i have already been through #2, it was a while ago, and i was truly stunned at the amount of lies and BS on the truther side. 

Hm, David Ray Giffin, yeah, i know of him, read through some of his book.  Remember that part where i said the truth movement was based on lies and half truths?  Yep, it applies to him as well.  http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/Ryan_Mackey_Griffin_NIST_Review_1_1.pdf  Give that PDF a shot if you want to see a reasoned and full refutation on his book.  Lets see, 1) he has been proven wrong on his position on the airphones, and as far as i can tell, still hasn’t corrected himself. 2) he believes there were air defenses at the pentagon, against all evidence to the contrary. 3)lies about the technology involved with voice changing, and was called on it by the technologies inventory, but still refused to change his stance.

Yep, lets believe him.  The guy is a professor of philosophy and religion.  The person who wrote the PDF i linked to it a research scientist.  Who do you think has a better grasp of the issues?

Now really, who is being lied to here?  And who is swallowing it?

Here, want to do some real research? 
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home
Try going there.  Seriously, it is not hard to learn the truth, you just don’t want to.

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By Myronh, October 24, 2007 at 7:49 am Link to this comment

I have been following this 9-11 controversy practically from the start. I don’t claim to have any idea if the airplanes could have caused the damage alleged by the official Government report. I also don’t know if anyone in the Goverment is smart enough to pull-off a conspiracy as big as this one would be. However, I do know as much about how thick large steel members react to fire. Pre-heat is a common practice used to prepare steel for electric arc-welding. I have personally witnessed how long and the large amount of gas and oxygen it takes to increase the temperature of 4 inch thick steel to 400 degrees fahrenheit. I can assure anyone reading this comment that jet-fuel fed only by a limited amount of oxygen cannot possibly have weakened that steel in the hour before the building collapsed. Ironically, the structural steel was even protected with asbestos insulation, which would have made the over-heating even more impossible.

I have seen and tested steel that had been exposed to an intense cresote-treated wood fire for 24-hours. The tubular structure continued to carry the load it was designed for, and the steel upon laboratory testing, had only lost a small percentage of it’s nominal strength. I have two wood-burning fireplaces in my home that heat my home (northern-midwest) in the wintertime. I have grates in those fireplaces fabricated from plain carbon steel 1 in. round bars, which are still holding the wood after 31 years of service. I have burned household garbage, plastic, etc. The steel is finally thinning to a state that replacement may be needed in another 5-years. Not 50-minutes as is claimed by the 9-11 Commission Report.

You can believe anything you want, but I will never believe the Report. I have worked with steel since 1953 and know how it reacts to heat, including processes that are used to cut it. BELIEVE ME, JET-FUEL DOESN’T CUT IT.

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By Sheila Casey, October 24, 2007 at 7:48 am Link to this comment

Nilroth, I agree that you are obviously well informed, you know the names of the security firm, the elevator company, and the man who publicized the power down at the WTC.  That is more, much more,  than I’d say for most official conspiracy theorists. 

But before I go further re. those issues, I’m curious about your motivation for being on this forum.  Two possibilities come to mind.

1) you are convinced that GWB is telling us the truth and want to publicize that view.

2)  you are sincerely exploring the truth of the matter and seeking information from those who may know more than you.

Is it one of these, or some other motivation?  Cause if it’s #2, I can tell you that you’d learn alot more, much more quickly, by reading “Debunking 9/11 Debunking” by David Ray Griffin.  It is very detailed and should answer almost all your questions.

Peace, Sheila

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By John Borowski, October 24, 2007 at 6:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Akira Maritias your pseudonym is so ludicrous and your lack of intelligence is so risible you should get off the air. Get some intelligent person to parse your comment before issuing them.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 24, 2007 at 5:25 am Link to this comment

“Ignore those who become continuingly desperate, as this truth seeps out.”

Earlier on, cyrena chose to call me desperate, so I guess this comment alludes to ignoring me being good. Yay.

First, though, let’s go ahead and address irony. Yes, irony is here, and she is a bigun’.

9/11 ‘truthers’ hardly seems right at this point. More like 9/11 ‘carefully avoid others and agree with people who agree with me on everythings’. You can’t be a truth seeker, then say ‘oh, just ignore those differing opinions, they’re wrong anyway’. I have a feeling that’s how Bush got to be what he is.

This country is GREATLY skewed. We have one side that is -completely- to the right in their thoughts; Jesus made America, gays are the devil, Islam is the devil, oil rulez, etc. The other side is -completely- to the left in their thoughts; War is bad, hug a tree, Bush sucks, etc. I wish there was more middle ground for me to stand on, although luckily there aren’t enough people standing here for me to lose my balance.

Anywho, back to that sentence that I quoted. Since feet of clay there loved to allude to sci-fi, I’ll quote my favorite sci-fi movie: (Star Wars can shove it)

“‘People don’t like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think. Don’t run, don’t walk. We’re in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right. We’re meddlesome.’

‘River, we’re not telling people what to think…we’re just trying to show them how.’”

This alludes to both sides, I think. On one hand, it’s quite obvious that the government is trying to meddle with what we do and what we think. But, I think you know what I’m trying to say about -you- specifically:

Don’t run, don’t walk. We’re not telling people what to think, we’re just trying to show them how.

Ponder this for a bit, and think on what I’ve said. I have things to do for a while, so feel free to comment on what I have said…I’ll get to ya’ eventually.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 24, 2007 at 5:13 am Link to this comment

Hm…I just counted 8 people who believe that there was a conspiracy, 2 people who didn’t really seem to choose a side, and 2 people who don’t think that there’s a conspiracy.

Think there might be just a wee bit of bias here. Like I said before, the ‘high fiving’ effect should be taking place, and it is. I’ll say one thing, then take a look and find 3 responses, followed by 5 people ‘high fiving’ the conspiracy ‘truthers’. No wonder everyone’s convinced that they’re right; you have a posse saying you are! I imagine that this is how Bush makes it through every day in office; he might look to Cheney and say ‘Cheney, do you think I’m doin’ good?” and Cheney would say ‘Of course you are!’, and then they’d all giggle like school girls and high five.

Alas, I apparently missed a comment. Feet of clay, you should really register here! It takes but a moment, and your comments show up immediately, which means that I won’t miss them.

Here, Sheila, let’s see what calm and rational statements feet of clay has to offer.

“akira-maritias said-
“Never mind that -moderates- hold opinions; everything has to be left or right. Never mind that nothing screams Hitler more than pointing out an -infestation- in a country. Never mind that a post like this is nothing short of a trollish attack. It’s liberal, and we love it!”

Everyone is entitled to his own opinions. These opinions don’t have to be either black or white. Only Siths deal in absolutes.”

Guess you’re a Sith then. Or a Star Wars fan. Honestly, why include Star Wars in -any- form of a discussion unless it’s about…Star Wars?

“What screams Hitler the loudest is this near cultic adherence to the fascist tenets of the new Homeland police state that was once free America.”

Perhaps. Then again, they aren’t putting us in camps yet. Call back to me when they do that. Actually, don’t; I’ll probably catch wind of it before you do.

“Refusing to go back to sleep while the Busheviks destroy the country and shred the Constitution is not a trollish attack.”

I’m not ‘going to sleep’ on this at all. Since 2002 I’ve known that there was an issue, and I was a wee little kid in 2002. Honestly, I think I was 12, and I knew Bush was bad at politics -then-. Still, by 2004, I had a pretty good reason why -nothing- could be done to stop Bush. For starters, Kerry was the worst opponent ever. And, impeaching Bush was impossible; we’d have President Cheney if that happened, and I wouldn’t be able to sleep at all if he became president.

“If you don’t like being wide awake, by all means, take their pills and go back to sleep.”

Are we doing a Matrix plug now, too? Of course, if ‘being awake’ is to spew vague sci-fi references while giving complete strangers high fives, then maybe I don’t want to be that sort of awake. I would rather be alert then drowsy, and you seem a lil’ too drowsy. Maybe you tried to wake up too soon, eh?

“The rest of us are wide awake. We’re not buying the bullshit.”

No, you bought the bullshit. Purchased it once a college kid suggested it, and let the bullshit mature to a whole new level of bullshit that transforms you into an arrogant person who thinks everyone else is inferior to you. Dumber, if you will.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 24, 2007 at 4:59 am Link to this comment

“I realize it’s not an easy thing to accept.  We are living a nightmare, pretty much at the mercy of evil men who will stop at nothing to get their hands on the $30 trillion worth of oil in Iraq.  There was a coup here in 2000, and the USA we once knew is no more.”

Look, if you’re upset that Gore didn’t make it in, fine. I didn’t like Gore; hell, I hated Bush, but I disliked the alternative as well. However, that doesn’t mean that the government changed. This government hasn’t changed in quite a long time. It’s always been corrupt, always done stupid things. It’s not like I don’t accept uneasy things; like the fact that I rejected God and a paradise after death. That’s not an easy thing for a child to do, but I did it nonetheless. I don’t take this path because it’s easier or it feels better; I take it because it feels LOGICAL.

“What’s even scarier is the way the media has aided and abetted this cover-up.  9/11 has been used as justification for 2 wars and the gutting of the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions. If there is even the slightest possibility that it was not done by Islamist terrorists, the media should be all over it.  They’re not. There is a huge black hole in the media where 9/11 questions and refutations of the official story should be.”

Perhaps. Perhaps not. What stuns me is that you seem to believe that the government is using the media to push its’ own agenda and yet, this same government can’t manage to silence 9/11 ‘truthers’?

“My hat is off to the patriots who stood up in Bill Maher’s show and brought this issue out of the shadows.  Sure, they were hustled out of the building but doesn’t matter—the clip is causing lots of discussion (2,000 comments on HuffPost!) and lots of folks are getting educated.  The media won’t do it, but Cyrena, feetofclay and I will!”

And I’ll be sighing right along after you…-sigh-. This is a saddening thing, where you feel completely patriotic in ignoring what other people are trying to say, and you feel that one group is totally right while the opposing group is being lied to and is dumb enough to fall for the lie. I feel quite sorry for you, seeing as how you’re willing to puff out your chest and wear your ego like a badge whilst trotting right on past me. After all, I’m just a raving lunatic, dumber than the president and twice as gullible! Speaking pure nonsense, yup, that’s me!

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By Akira_Maritias, October 24, 2007 at 4:59 am Link to this comment

“What I have noticed, Akira, on this site and others, is that believers in the official conspiracy theory rarely like to discuss the facts…”

I see. And I have to admit that the thought of circling someone and growling wearies me. But, at the same time, you must understand that I open myself up to the same sort of accusations and whatnot. Take ‘Franker than Frank’ there. He’s choosing to make it sound as though I’m a brain dead chimp being payed by the government to have thoughts. Will he be called out on it? Of course not, because he is on your side. Both sides to this topic have their fair share of complete crazies, mind you. Still, I prefer to be actively talking to someone than ignoring them on the premise that they may or may not attack my character.

“Believe me, I have never in my life been accused of being closed-minded.  I have friends from all ages, races and walks of life.”

As do I. But your mind has a tiny little door that it prefers to shut from time to time, and right now, it’s what I’m saying that you opt to have a closed mind to. It’s not new; I argue with Christians all of the time about atheism. When you have a preconceived notion of what is right, nothing will change your mind. I could list off every reason why 9/11 was not a government conspiracy, and you would -still- ignore it and say that ‘well, even if that’s true, THIS proves it!’ and even if I debunked that, you would have a way to catch me -still- and -still- be right.

“When I was in the information-gathering stage, I didn’t post to any blogs, I just read, read, read and absorbed information like a sponge.  But there comes a point where you’ve learned enough and the facts are clear.”

Perhaps. I have yet to reach that point on any subject. Might I add: did you look at -everything-, or just the stuff that pointed to a 9/11 conspiracy? When I read into the 9/11 conspiracy theories, I would always search right after every point to see if it could be debunked. I think I made it to about 600 something errors in someone’s proud statement that 9/11 was a government conspiracy before I stopped and moved on. It all depends on what sort of research you do. I did unbiased researching, and came to the conclusion that it was -not- a conspiracy.

“If there are new facts, I’m interested in hearing them.  If I heard that one of Silverstein’s daughters died on 9/11 cause she was at her desk, that would really give me pause.  Or a plausible explanation for the molten metal found 6 weeks later at ground zero (that is, STILL molten) Or a video of another steel framed building disintegrating exactly the same way—into dust BEFORE it hits the ground.”

Never mind that thousands died, you want a specific death? Of course, the molten steel that was still red hot was found buried underneath rubble, and there were fires burning down there for several weeks at 2,000 degrees. So, it is plausible that the fires kept everything hot. I wasn’t at ground zero in the weeks following 9/11, so I can’t tell you for certain, but that is a plausible explanation. Of course, considering what little info you gave me about the other building falling, I won’t touch on it. You don’t say if it was detonated, if it was hit by a plane, how large it was, etc. I need more data before I assume.

“But I haven’t seen that from believers in the official story, on this or any other site.  Instead I see vicious attacks, which say much more about the attacker than the victim.”

Perhaps. But take a look at the ‘Loose Change’ forums and you may very well cry at the sight of people on your side behaving so violently towards mourners and ‘believers’, as you so aptly put it. Amusing, no one has called me a ‘believer’ before.

Continued…

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By PatrickHenry, October 24, 2007 at 3:21 am Link to this comment

Tony, you nailed it on the head.

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By Tony Wicher, October 24, 2007 at 12:30 am Link to this comment

Re #109062 by PatrickHenry on 10/23 at 1:24 pm

Throw in the idea that besides PNAC and Zionist extremists, bin Laden really was involved in recruiting the suicide bombers and that the whole crew was (and still is) working together. After all, Osama bin Laden had CIA contacts going back to the eighties and the Bushes and the bin Ladens go back two or three generations.  Then what are you left with? The idea of a huge con job run on the people of the world by a gang of international war profiteers.

I think this might not be too far off. What do you think?

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By niloroth, October 23, 2007 at 9:19 pm Link to this comment

sheila,

“What I have noticed, Akira, on this site and others, is that believers in the official conspiracy theory rarely like to discuss the facts.”

Typical truther reaction.  You make a bunch of acusations, i prove you wrong, and then you ignore that fact.  Please, enlighten me as to how i was wrong in my responses to you.  You can’t, and you won’t.  The truther belifes die under requests for proof.  I caught you in at least 4 lies and halftruths.  Your response?  You are being lied to, and are willingly buying it.  I am not so guillible.

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By Sheila Casey, October 23, 2007 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena wrote: 

“Still, it is what it is, and none of us ‘like’ it the least bit. It’s horrible and psychologically traumatizing, to know that we have been victims in this, because we ALL have.”

This is sooo true.  Amidst all the facts and accusations, this gets lost—that it is just a damn hard thing to face that 9/11 was an inside job.  I did so much research cause I kept hoping I’d come across something that would convince me that it happened just as we were told. 

What’s so absurd is that I’ve heard this used as a “motivation” for conspiracy theories, that it is too upsetting to think this stuff is just random; that it is somehow more COMFORTING to believe that our own government, who know where we live, where we work, how much we make, who we’re related to, and could grab us and interrogate us whenever they like, that it is somehow more COMFORTING to believe that this government is composed of cold blooded mass murderers.  Isn’t that a cozy, comfy thought?  And that need for COMFORT is what drives us zany folks with the aluminum foil helmets to concoct our wild theories. 

Gee, now that I know that my country is a sham and a hollow relic of its former self, I just feel so warm and cozy and comfortable, I’m gonna put on my jammies and have some milk and cookies!  And then I’ll have sweet dreams all night long about George Bush with blood dripping from his fangs.

Nighty-night!

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By BadMan, October 23, 2007 at 6:56 pm Link to this comment

Bill Maher,

Funny guy, and not as politically naive as most commentators or comics, but still doesn’t have the balls to say anything that controvertial. 

Was it an inside job?? I have no idea, was there an adequate investigation?? from this administration??? who are we kidding??

Freedom of speech bill, remember you were kicked off of network tv and your show politically incorrect was cancelled because you chose to utter uncomfortable truths and the powers that be decided your freedom of speech was null and void.

Your show is about pollitically incorrect topics, or have you become that main stream ??

Heres to hoping you grow some balls and actually allow some debate king bill and stop silencing dissent and freedom of speech.

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By Franker than Frank, October 23, 2007 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

Boyoboy, I am a veteran of the last thread on 911 that has over a thousand comments and still going, and I sure don’t want to get in on this one except to say: sic ‘em, you folks that are really seeking the truth.

There are a lot disinfo agents out here in the real world; some get paid (by the taxpayer, of course) for spreading lies and disinfo, as this is their government job; some do it because they hate the truth; still others do it just for fun, and then there are those that are so witless and clueless that they lap up anything and everything the government (whichever one it may be at present) tells them and then they head off like crusader rabbits pouncing on people and pummeling them only because said people just want to know the truth.

Yes, Martha, governments do lie when it suits the agenda. I’m sorry. I wish I did not have to reveal it like this and make your poor little jaw drop, but there it is, the truth is out. I have no chaser for you, no seltzer water or cola, you must take it straight, “on the rocks.” It’s better than finding it out while the WTC is imploding all around you from pre-set packets of explosives, isn’t it? This is how 3,000+ Americans discovered it. So count your blessings.

911 was an inside job.

Good luck to the good guys! May the bad guys find justice at the end of ropes.

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By Sheila Casey, October 23, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

What I have noticed, Akira, on this site and others, is that believers in the official conspiracy theory rarely like to discuss the facts.  Instead they react emotionally, calling names and trying to denigrate and insult the other person as best they can.  It seems like a page from the GOP playbook, if someone says something you don’t like, smear ‘em.  What I was saying is that I’m not opening myself up to that. 

Believe me, I have never in my life been accused of being closed-minded.  I have friends from all ages, races and walks of life. 

When I was in the information-gathering stage, I didn’t post to any blogs, I just read, read, read and absorbed information like a sponge.  But there comes a point where you’ve learned enough and the facts are clear. 

If there are new facts, I’m interested in hearing them.  If I heard that one of Silverstein’s daughters died on 9/11 cause she was at her desk, that would really give me pause.  Or a plausible explanation for the molten metal found 6 weeks later at ground zero (that is, STILL molten)  Or a video of another steel framed building disintegrating exactly the same way—into dust BEFORE it hits the ground. 

But I haven’t seen that from believers in the official story, on this or any other site.  Instead I see vicious attacks, which say much more about the attacker than the victim. 

I realize it’s not an easy thing to accept.  We are living a nightmare, pretty much at the mercy of evil men who will stop at nothing to get their hands on the $30 trillion worth of oil in Iraq.  There was a coup here in 2000, and the USA we once knew is no more. 

What’s even scarier is the way the media has aided and abetted this cover-up.  9/11 has been used as justification for 2 wars and the gutting of the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions. If there is even the slightest possibility that it was not done by Islamist terrorists, the media should be all over it.  They’re not. There is a huge black hole in the media where 9/11 questions and refutations of the official story should be.

My hat is off to the patriots who stood up in Bill Maher’s show and brought this issue out of the shadows.  Sure, they were hustled out of the building but doesn’t matter—the clip is causing lots of discussion (2,000 comments on HuffPost!) and lots of folks are getting educated.  The media won’t do it, but Cyrena, feetofclay and I will!

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By cyrena, October 23, 2007 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

#109069 by Sheila Casey

Sheila,

Yours is excellent summary, and while there may or may not be the minor details on whether or not Larry Silverstein has made tons of money, it’s clear that you’ve been able to work through, (on your own) all of the information that has become available, to form the conclusion that we must all ultimately come to, if only because it’s the truth, in all of it’s raw and ugly shock.

Because, it is. And yes, the ‘official lies’ are certainly the ‘easier’ thing to believe, just as Santa Claus was fun to believe in as a child. Surely we would rather believe ANYTHING other than the truth in this case. And as you read, you find those deniers and trolls clinging more and more desperately to keeping the truth covered up.

Still, it is what it is, and none of us ‘like’ it the least bit. It’s horrible and psychologically traumatizing, to know that we have been victims in this, because we ALL have. As horrible as this has been for the families directly hit, (in the physical sense of it all) the attacks of 9/11 perpetrated from within our own alleged ‘government’ have taken a drastic toll on our entire nation and population as a whole.

So, I’m glad you’ve read, and been able to connect the dots, (better late than not at all) so that we can face the truth. We can’t do anything to stop this take-over, until we can accept the truth of how and why it has happened.

Keep reading, and keep connecting the dots. Because, while I’m certainly not a ‘gospel preacher’ (heaven forbid THAT) I do firmly believe that we should all do the research, and follow our own common sense.

I’m more than confident in the truth that we’ve been able to come to, and as you can tell from these posters, that seems to be their biggest worry. That others will figure it out as well. So, they devolve into this back and forth attack on anyone who would put the truth out there. It’s such a common tactic, as to have become tiring, and unworthy of any response. Because, seeking the TRUTH about ANYTHING, should not be a ‘competitive’ activity.

So, if you’re interested enough in this, you’ll continue to connect the dots on your own, and obviously come to the right conclusions, even though many of them will never have or provide solid evidence to back them up. It goes without saying that the most important ‘evidence’ has long been destroyed at the WTC, and so for most of this exercise, we have to use the LACK of any evidence, to prove that the official lies are exactly that…lies. Logically, that’s a backward way to go about it, but it’s all we have. Any real and/or concrete evidence, (such as the flight data boxes) have long since been destroyed and/or confiscated, so there is little of that type information available.

Still, there’s a great deal that can be learned from the ABSENCE of what –should have been there. And, never take ANYONE else’s word for anything, without checking it out, and satisfying it in your own logical mind.

Ignore those who become continuingly desperate, as this truth seeps out.

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By Kim, October 23, 2007 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You know it doesn’t even matter if 911 was an inside job. They’ve committed plenty of provable criminal offenses, such as breaking their vows to uphold the constitution, breaking FISA laws before 911 and criminal negligence in cherry picking evidence to push the Iraq war.  You might even be able to prove criminal negligence in Bush’s appointment of a show horse official in a position he wasn’t qualified for (that led to the unneccesary deaths of hundreds on the gulf coast due to the slow response).

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By niloroth, October 23, 2007 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

Sheila,

I hate to say this, but either you do really poor research, or you really didn’t research the other side at all.  I am guessing the later.  For one, Marvin Bush never owned Stratesec, he was on their board, as he was on many others.  There was has never been any evidence that there was a double indemnity plan on the WTC’s, they were covered for terrorist attacks since before 1993 though, since the bombing then cost the insurers paid out over $510 milllion.  The story of the power down comes from one person, Scott Forbes, yes, just one.  Okay, so over 50,000 people worked in the towers, and only one person mentions the power down?  I guess the other 46,900 people are all in on the conspiracy?  The elevator workers, all 83 of them, worked for ACE Elevator, and they followed their companies procedures, which stated to leave in case of fires, after the second plane hit.  And aside from what you have read, Silverstein has not walked away with millions in his pockets, he is actually still responsable for the rent and rebuilding of the sites.  He isn’t making any money.

Like i said, you, and everyone else who believes the truth lies, are not checking facts.  It doesn’t take long.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 23, 2007 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Sheila claims to not be reading, but I bet that Sheila will read this. Read and ignore it, but read it nonetheless; after all, Sheila would -have- to have read what I wrote in order to know not to read what I wrote-unless Sheila takes cyrena to be a gospel preacher.

In all honesty, Sheila is proof of the sort of psychosis one goes through once they want something to be right; at least in their eyes.

Instead of reading and actively responding to people who hold views that contradict her own, Sheila has chosen to read and respond to views that agree with her own-whilst quietly shunning all other opinions and thoughts.

I could have done what Sheila did. I could have seen the comments here and walked away. But I chose to communicate with the other side, even if I’m a brash, right to the point sort of person. Even though I swear a lot, don’t use big words, and have a hell of a time with grammar on most occasions, I still try to communicate with people who have differing opinions. I could shut out every other view and decide that mine was the right one. Hell, I could even go out of my way to find people that agree with my view so that I could justify myself.

I could act like a born again Christian by claiming that I had ‘seen the light’ because of a certain number of people, then say that it wasn’t worth it to listen to the people who disagreed, but I would be lying through my teeth.

I spend nearly 75% of my time surrounded by people that disagree with my view. I don’t do it to be a troll, or to be a moron. I do it to immerse myself into a differing view. I do it to see how they behave, what info they have that makes them so certain of what I know to be false, and so on. If you honestly think that your view is right because you spend time surrounding yourself with people who agree with you…well, you’re not much different than a bully, or Bush. Maybe a toadie, even.

I have spoken with people before that were so…utterly racist that it turned my stomach. I’ve talked with holocaust deniers, anti-Arabic men, PETA members, Evangelicals, sexists, homophobics, etc. Rarely do I speak with people that agree with me, because once I do, there’s a lot of ‘high-fiving’ and ego stroking that goes on.

People like to be right. It makes their chest swell whenever they find people that agree with their view. I prefer to deflate a little; ego’s big enough as it is. No need to puff it out more.

You talk to people against what you think, and you start doing research. You become active in the topic, and you learn new things. Hell, you even start to respect the person you’re bickering with, even when they don’t fully respect you. But when you shelter yourself from differing views, all that you are doing is ‘high fiving’ someone; you’re being passive in the discussion, and you don’t -want- to be wrong.

There’s plenty of things that I wouldn’t mind being wrong about. However, people have to show me a reason why I’m wrong; they can’t just high five each other in front of me and expect me to agree.

Hopefully, Sheila, you read that. You probably will read it. However, you’ll be stubborn, determined if you will, to ignore me…even if it is just out of spite. ‘Cause in the end, no one wants to be wrong, no matter how vile and twisted the point is.

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By feetofclay, October 23, 2007 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

niloroth said-
The truth movement if built on lies, half truths, deception, and quote mining.  As such, it deserves no credit and no recognition.  It is a bunch of people who have no sense of skepticism, and are to lazy to do even the most basic fact checking.  As such, they are simply used for profit by the people who feed them these lies.  If you want to throw your hat in with them, feel free, but i will stay on the side with the facts, evidence and proof.

Well, where are your facts, evidence, and proof that the truth movement is built on lies, half truths, deception, and quote mining?

It’s like you said - you don’t want this REALITY to see the light of day because you personally thinks it’s bullshit.

We’ve offered your willfully blind ass nothing but proof that your government has LIED to you.

All you’ve offered to refute our claim is your skepticism and references to the sites put up by the Bushevik thinktanks, which is BULLSHIT!!!!

We feel your bullshit deserves the same amount of airtime you want to give REALITY.

9/11 was an inside job! Walk it off, sucker!

They are lying to you!

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By Sheila Casey, October 23, 2007 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

I’ve read all the posts on this topic and have found some of them, particularly Cyrena and John Borowski’s, to be interesting and illuminating.  I skip over the ones from Niloroth and Akira—and please do not reply to me either—as I learn nothing from them. 

I was very late in realizing that 9/11 was an inside job—it was August 2007 before I started looking into this.  I was looking for information on impeachment and found Paul Craig Roberts site, and his articles about the 9/11 coverup.  I plunged headlong into learning all I could.  I read David Ray Griffin’s book “A New Pearl Harbor,” and Barrie Zwicker’s book “Towers of Deception.”  I watched “9/11:  Press for Truth,” “Zeitgeist,” “Loose Change” and “9/11 Mysteries.”  I read the “Prison Planet” website of Alex Jones. 

I also sought out information from the opposing side.  I watched stuff on the history channel, read the articles in Vanity Fair and Progressive and Popular Mechanics and discussed it with friends, all of whom believe the official story.  I read the websites of NIST re. the WTC disintegration. 

I also sought out clips such as David Ray Griffin on the Tucker Carlson show, went through all 200 slides of the powerpoint show on “Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth,” and read the testimonials and statements from pilots, CIA officers, firemen and aviation disaster investigators on
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

After this, the truth was clear and I was in shock.  This is not an easy pc of news to assimilate.  It’s like when you’re 7 and find out there’s no Santa Claus.  What about all the “evidence” to the contrary?  The presents?  Surely mom and dad didnt’ lie to me?  And my teachers and the whole world?  Yes, ‘fraid so.  The whole world did lie to you and it’s not the way you thought it was. 

The WTC was a dinosaur, never leased to full capacity due to an unattractive interior and asbestos fireproofing on the steel beams.  The estimate to remove the asbestos from the building and replace it with a different kind of fireproofing ran into the billions.  It also presented a PR nightmare to remove a highly toxic substance from an occupied building in the center of manhattan, with the potential for multiple lawsuits if people contracted cancer. 

OTOH, it presented a prime target for a spectacle—visible for miles in all directions, in the nation’s media center.  It was not important so much how many died, but that there be a huge spectacle. They did it on an election day in NYC, which also happened to be the first day of primary school.  So many workers were late that day, either taking kids to school or voting.  And, at 8:45 many people are not at work even on a normal day.  If they had hit at 11:30 am, the death toll could have been 50,000.  If it had been foreign terrorists trying to kill as many Americans as possible, this is what they would have done.  But it wasn’t, it was our own government trying to create a huge, eye-searing spectacle.  Massive deaths were not important to them. 

Larry Silverstein and his two daughters had offices in the WTC towers, but all found reasons to be elsewhere on the morning of 9/11.

Now the towers are down, and rather than billions in reconstruction costs, Silverstein took in billions in insurance money.  He had taken out a policy specifying double indemnity for terrorism just weeks earlier.

The firm responsible for security in the WTC was owned by Marvin Bush, GW Bush’s brother.  Five days prior to 9/11 there was an unprecedented power shutdown that meant all security cameras were turned off.  At the time the elevator system was being “upgraded.”  However not one of the workers from the so called elevator company died on 9/11.

And this is just one small corner of the 9/11 story.  9/11, the American Reichstag.

Sheila Casey

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By PatrickHenry, October 23, 2007 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

There are too many coincidences to dismiss Israeli and PNAC involvement in 9/11.

From a deteriorating asbestos filled building containing important SEC files to dancing Israeli Mossad agents “documenting the event” (later released by Chertoff, a PNAC member).
Silverstein made billions instead of spending billions in abatement costs. Dov Zakim (a PNAC member) and comptroller of the Pentagon, also involved with remote airplane technology, was set to explain with Rumsfeld (a PNAC member) on 9/11 where 2 trillion dollars went missing, the terrorist attack preempted that explanation.  I am still waiting.

All fact and there is not enough space in this post to list it all.

Bush was willing to dismiss any conspiracy two months after the attack at the U.N. before any investigation could be conducted.

It stinks from the top on down.

And Bill Maher is nothing but a no balls political stooge for failing to discuss any of it right or left.

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By Frikken Kids, October 23, 2007 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

I can see the scene from the Simpsons…

Mr Hutz, do you have any evidence to present to support your 911truth conspiracy theory?

I have plenty of hearsay and conjecture…those are kinds of evidence.

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By niloroth, October 23, 2007 at 1:49 pm Link to this comment

Sorry feet, but i am actually rather moderate.  This site however is far from it, i mostly just stop here for the links in the AV room section, thus the reason i found this thread.  And i do think that you should be allowed to spew as much BS as you want.  I just happen to be a strong supporter of the old adage “your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts”

The truth movement if built on lies, half truths, deception, and quote mining.  As such, it deserves no credit and no recognition.  It is a bunch of people who have no sense of skepticism, and are to lazy to do even the most basic fact checking.  As such, they are simply used for profit by the people who feed them these lies.  If you want to throw your hat in with them, feel free, but i will stay on the side with the facts, evidence and proof.

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By feetofclay, October 23, 2007 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

akira-maritias said-
Never mind that -moderates- hold opinions; everything has to be left or right. Never mind that nothing screams Hitler more than pointing out an -infestation- in a country. Never mind that a post like this is nothing short of a trollish attack. It’s liberal, and we love it!

Everyone is entitled to his own opinions. These opinions don’t have to be either black or white. Only Siths deal in absolutes.

What screams Hitler the loudest is this near cultic adherence to the fascist tenets of the new Homeland police state that was once free America.

Refusing to go back to sleep while the Busheviks destroy the country and shred the Constitution is not a trollish attack.

If you don’t like being wide awake, by all means, take their pills and go back to sleep.

The rest of us are wide awake. We’re not buying the bullshit.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 23, 2007 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

Look for a common tactic that all disgusting -left- wingers use in their comments.

For starters, they allude to right wingers being like Hitler. They describe natural things, maybe throw in a reference to a liberal topdog (Gore’s a favorite), make a jeering reference to Bush, and emphasize the word WRONG while using disease terms, like infestation.

Never mind that -moderates- hold opinions; everything has to be left or right. Never mind that nothing screams Hitler more than pointing out an -infestation- in a country. Never mind that a post like this is nothing short of a trollish attack. It’s liberal, and we love it!

Sheesh…you’d think that BOTH sides were complete crazy…

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By feetofclay, October 23, 2007 at 11:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

niloroth said-
Thankfully, outside this little ultra left world you have joined here, most people don’t really care what you have to say, and they know you are full of BS.  This is part of the reason you folks don’t get airtime, you don’t deserve it.


In the ugly habit of blocking views you don’t share, I see.

Well, no one really cares what you think either. But, few here are fascist enough to stop you from spewing your nazi bullshit.

If you’re so pissed with our ultra-left wing bullshit, why the hell are you still here? Shouldn’t you be posting your support for the official 9/11 story on Pig Boy’s site? There, Bushevik fascists will hail you as their new leader. They’ll think you’re a damned genius.

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By John Borowski, October 23, 2007 at 10:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Look for a common tactic that all disgusting right wingers use in their comments. If you don’t believe in Hitler’s type of “right wingism” it means you don’t love the country. In my opinion the sky is still blue, the earth is still brown, and the grass is still green. This means there is nothing wrong with the country. What is WRONG with the country is the infestation of the right that has this beloved country by the throat.

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By niloroth, October 23, 2007 at 6:43 am Link to this comment

Seriously, you truthers are some really special people.  I actually think i do prefer the no moon landing folks.  The level to which people have ignored evidence, swallowed lies, distorted facts, and outright just made themselves ignorant to be able to believe this 9/11 truth BS is amazing.  911truth.org’s post list at least 5 things that have been fully refuted for years, the information is fully available to him, it wouldn’t take more than a few hours to gather and read, but he willfully and continually decides to remain ignorant to the facts.  I am sorry, but you are the intellectual equal to someone who still claims that Iraq had WMD’s.  Thankfully, outside this little ultra left world you have joined here, most people don’t really care what you have to say, and they know you are full of BS.  This is part of the reason you folks don’t get airtime, you don’t deserve it.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 23, 2007 at 6:10 am Link to this comment

You said I was afraid of terrorists, terrorists that you don’t think exist. Hence, you would think that I was scared of nothing, and I count that as cowardice.

I do get confused often, however, especially when someone is pushing a confusing topic at me. Of course, I’ve called you a moron a lot, so we can back off on that being a problem, eh?

“I also told you that I’m not a conspiracy theorist”

You just believe that they’re right. Which means that you buy into there being a conspiracy.

If you won’t say what you did, then it don’t much matter.

“I have no worries about the ‘government’ blowing up the next plane that I’m on, because I don’t travel by air. Not since 9/11.”

Then who’s the scared one? You won’t fly anywhere? I have no hesitation to fly somewhere; true fright is when you feel that there’s a good enough chance that the next flight you take will blow up.

Apparently you know little about steel, nor do you care to try and test out steel’s integrity. A plane crashing into a steel building can easily destroy it, and most were stunned that it lasted that long.

My dad can SWEAR that it was a boeing 757. Parts are there, the massive hole is there (I bet you’re thinking of the tiny one) the remains are there. You just don’t want it to be there. And, I do consider it calling my dad a liar when you are convinced that he’s wrong about what type of plane it was. Sheesh.

“I asked if you had some photos for me, from all of that googling. (you said I’d only have to do a few minutes worth). Books, I’ve read them all.”

What kind of photos do you need? I’ll find them for you, since you’re too lazy to do it yourself (don’t strain yourself, you’re biased and probably wouldn’t find any, anyway).

“The bombings in Great Britain? Some of them may have been done by Islamic terrorists. But 9/11 wasn’t. Nor did I say it was done by the US military. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Why don’t you pay attention?”

Here’s what I’ve gotten from you: the government did it. No one in the government, unless they have military expertise, can pull off a strike like that (unless they were doing it exactly as the terrorists did it, which makes your story even -less- credible). This is Occam’s Razor in full effect: you’re adding something that is not necessary. Terrorists are currently bombing the UK; terrorists that claim to be following the example of 9/11. You, therefore, decide that 9/11 was caused by the government and that there were no Islamic terrorists, even though several were captured for their part in it and several more were gloating about it.

“The bombings at the world WTC were most likely carried out by a very small number of people, (though I suspect the CIA was involved, though they aren’t the ‘military’) Cheney does have his own group of them to work the rendition and torture flights. Doesn’t take many.”

Oh, good. Now we’ve got -Cheney-, the criminal mastermind. Next you’ll be saying that Bush was the ingenious master behind the entire plot that ‘carefully calculated the strikes’.

“So, you may not be a coward, but you sound pretty desperately anxious to prevent anybody from speaking the truth.”

If this is the truth, then I’m Al Gore’s running mate.

Oh yeah, I know more than the ‘rest of you’. I know that it was a terrorist strike. Hell, I knew it when I first saw it.

I’m not anxious to prove you wrong. If I was, I would be writing books about this, I would be going to those ‘loose change’ meetings and kicking their asses (which I still want to do, by the way; some of them say that the people who mourn the deaths of the United 93 victim are stupid). I would be raising a huge stink. But I’m not. I’m on truthdig, talking to one person.

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By John Borowski, October 23, 2007 at 5:47 am Link to this comment
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I am amazed how little the little minds know about 9/11. Apparently it is because they get their information from right wing talk shows that make up ninety percent of talk shows. Flight 93 and Flight 77 were backups incase Flight 11 and Flight175 screwed up. When it turned out that 11 and 175 were successful, the other two were expendable. Flight 93 was shot down in Pennsylvania and Flight 77 simply disappeared. The hole in the Pentagon was far too small to accept a large jet plane. Any aeronautical expert will tell you that a 757 can’t go 500mph at that altitude it would disintegrate. It was so low to the ground that it hit the light fixtures. The wings would fall off and the ground would look like a farmer plowed it for next years planting. It came directly at the portion of the Pentagon that the generals, admirals, and Cheney were and did a maneuver towards the opposite side were only us type of peasants were refurbishing the building. Most top pilots in the country will tell you that they doubt they can make that type of maneuver with that type of jet. A missile or robotic jet could easily make that type of maneuver. When the killems for god were trying to establish a record that indicated they were qualified pilots at the US flying schools they were so bad that the schools advised them to forget it. (This was for small single engine planes) In my opinion Bush’s purpose for being in Florida was not to read about a smelly goat. Because his brother was governor at that time and controlled the state’s police and National Guard he was there as safe haven incase the plot suffered from Murphy’s Law. The killems for god most likely were agents for the British or US government. There is no way they would do their perversities on the eve of the martyrdom that they did and forfeit their seventy virgins. (What they did, would really piss off Allah) The British and Americans started to develop robotic planes in the 1950s and now have robotics at a high state of sophistication. They are capable of flying a jet plane around the world safely. Unlike the pope, I must have an eraser on the end of my pencil. If the “Conspiracy Nuts” like me are correct we will soon have an overt dictatorship in this country and that means the end of life on this sad planet.

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By feetofclay, October 23, 2007 at 5:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

akira_maritias said-
People like you just won’t listen to reason. You would rather create MORE suffering than necessary and play the blame game.

You’re an idiot who thinks saying way more NOTHING than everyone else gives you cred. It doesn’t. The way you rattle on incoherently is annoying and stupid.

Bush knew before ‘they’ cheated voters in 2000 to get him into the White House.

9/11 was the point of the PNAC manifesto. All the 9/11 perpetrators were signatories of this document.

The government that works against the people is EVIL.

We’re not going to cut and run from these murdering idiots. We’re fighting for the America that belongs to US, the people. They can’t kill us all. We won’t let them. They already know their blood runs as red as ours. There are more of us than them. And, we’re not afraid. We’re sick of their bullshit.

The truth is not going away just because it makes you and nilo-whatever and bob nervous. Just because cyrena raised a bunch of great points you don’t agree with does not make her an irrational idiot anymore than your stubbornly clinging to the official story makes you an irrational blind turdwad.

9/11 was an inside job.

Bush knew long before 2001.

Bill Maher you and every craven coward taking the easy road of buying the government’s official 9/11 fable at face value are all just TOOLS of the fascist state!

The fascist state counts on stubborn scared jerks just like you being the little pussy you are in your lame ‘if-you’re right…..’ posts!

We are right! You know it, and the tyrants in Washington know it. Fascists love you who are too scared to challenge power with truth. They count on you to faithfully tow their reich party line and scream their nazi propaganda. Seig Heil!

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By cyrena, October 23, 2007 at 5:25 am Link to this comment

#108927 by Akira_Maritias

You’re confused Akira. (which makes you the desperate one). First of all, I didn’t call you a coward. I called you a moron, but not a coward.

I also told you that I’m not a conspiracy theorist, and I also told you that I have a background (a very extended one) in the aviation industry. (I didn’t say what particular thing I did, and I won’t).

I have no worries about the ‘government’ blowing up the next plane that I’m on, because I don’t travel by air. Not since 9/11. It’s also highly unlikely that they would blow up the area where I’m currently enscounced. (no benefits)

I also didn’t doubt that you saw airplanes fly into the WTC. They did. They just didn’t cause the towers to fall. I’ll even belive that your dad saw a ‘hole’ in the Pentagon. I saw that much too. An airplane didn’t make it though. A missle makes more sense, but I wouldn’t swear to that. I can only SWEAR that it wasn’t a boeing 757.

I asked if you had some photos for me, from all of that googling. (you said I’d only have to do a few minutes worth). Books, I’ve read them all.

The bombings in Great Britain? Some of them may have been done by Islamic terrorists. But 9/11 wasn’t. Nor did I say it was done by the US military. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Why don’t you pay attention?

The bombings at the world WTC were most likely carried out by a very small number of people, (though I suspect the CIA was involved, though they aren’t the ‘military’) Cheney does have his own group of them to work the rendition and torture flights. Doesn’t take many.

So, you may not be a coward, but you sound pretty desperately anxious to prevent anybody from speaking the truth. So, we’ll just say you’re either a moron in denial, or maybe you know more than you want the rest of us to know.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 23, 2007 at 4:45 am Link to this comment

Wow…I just….wow.

Never, in all of my years (and there aren’t that many) did I expect a reply such as the one cyrena posted. It…it raises idiocy to an artform.

Christ, I can’t believe how -desperate- you are to be right about this! Considering that the ‘mountain of facts’ for why 9/11 was a ‘carefully planned military strike against itself’ can usually be completely debunked by thirty-sixty seconds of googling (or picking up some good books in the library) as well as spotting airplanes slamming into all of the buildings, followed by the explosion resulting from an object with fuel going 600 or so mph straight into a steel, motionless object, I wonder how you can continue to prattle on as if what you are saying is useful.

One: If you are right, and the government has NO trouble with slaughtering several thousand of its’ own citizens, as well as using several planes to cover it up (which means more casualties), then why would they allow a couple of dumbasses to ‘uncover the conspiracy’? If they are so ingenious and capable of pulling off the biggest terrorist attack…ever, why would they be incapable of stopping a few morons like you from spilling the beans?

Two: If you are right, then why the hell are you staying in America? If your government has ABSOLUTELY NO TROUBLE with killing innocent civilians for their own gains, then why would you stay here and endanger your life, as well as your families lives? After all, YOU could be on the next plane that the government decides to use as a cover up. YOU could be in the next building that the government would benefit in destroying.

Three: Why the hell are you so determined to make the government evil? The government does a TON of bad things already; do you really NEED to make a new reason to hate them? I’ve seen hundreds of images from 9/11, and not ONCE has ‘government conspiracy’ crossed my mind. Do you know why? My father worked to reinstall the computers destroyed at the Pentagon. My dad ain’t a moron. He said that it was definitely a plane. Before you go whining and crying about my dad being stupid, I’ll let you know that my dad used to fly planes. So, there you go. But, I guess that doesn’t matter. You probably think it’s a missile, think my father’s a retarded chimp that doesn’t know a missile from a plane, and think that ‘Loose Change’ is a masterpiece.

People like you just won’t listen to reason. You would rather create MORE suffering than necessary and play the blame game.

Like now, for example. You don’t believe in Islamic terrorists; you believe in our terrorist government. Okay, shoot: Who the hell has been attacking Britain lately? -Not- Islamic terrorists? Are -we- going over there and blowing stuff up? Are -we- hiring Osama to give little speeches here and there about blowing up America?

Those aren’t benefits, dumbass. Guess what? Country’s in a HUGE ASS DEBT right now. They ‘steal too much’, and it’ll all become worthless.

You seem to assume that I’m afraid. I’m not. I don’t fear terrorists, especially the sort that scheme in caves to try and throw planes at us. I don’t fear them; I hate them. Of course, you probably also think that I’m an uber conservative, bible thumping, FOX news watching moron. I’m not.

Since you had -no- good points to add, you decided to call me a coward for thinking that terrorists exist. I have no patience for you. You have no patience for naughty language? I have even -less- for people that can’t make a good point without calling their opponent a coward.

By the way; scare tactics to make money are easier to do, they still wouldn’t have needed to blow up buildings. So, wrong again.

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By PatrickHenry, October 23, 2007 at 3:43 am Link to this comment

“Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty”.

GWB at the United Nations, November 11, 2001

Now you know why he is known as the “decider”.

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By cyrena, October 23, 2007 at 1:22 am Link to this comment

1 of 2 by Akira_Maritias #108828

•  “Besides, don’t you think that some of the workers in WTC would have noticed a few morons frolicking about with explosives and the like”…

They DID notice Akira, you haven’t been paying attention. Somebody can find this for you on line. I don’t have time, especially since I already know the buildings were blown up. But yes, there’s eyewitness testimony to ‘strange goings on’ in the weeks prior to 9/11, and on the ‘appropriate floors’ of the towers, both above and below where they were hit. Still, with 50,000 people working in and/or accessing the Towers everyday, it wouldn’t surprise me if nobody saw or heard anything. Yet…they did!!!. Generally at night.

There is more eyewitness testimony from William Rodriguez as well. It was available from day one, since he was in the South Tower basement area when an EXPLOSION occurred, and another co-worker had his skin and other parts blown off of him. It was BEFORE the airplane struck the South Tower, and it came from the BASEMENT. Tell me again how those buildings fell in 8.1 and 10. seconds. Ya ever seen anything like that? Nobody else has, unless they were looking at a demolition. Airplane fuel doesn’t cut it.

Besides, a whole bunch of people knew in advance. Why do you think John Ashcroft started taking private jets everywhere? Why do you think the AMR and UAL stock did such a twisted break dance in the days before? I could go on.

•  Considering that there would be -no- benefit for the government to attack WTC and the Pentagon, it must have been to start a war…

Starting a war was only ONE of the reasons Akria. And yes, you’re right that the Thugs started one anyway, (with no discernable reason) but 9/11 accomplished far more than that. And, they had at least HOPED to use it as ‘legal cover’ to launch the war on Saddam, by claiming that he was connected. The bogus stuff about the Arab terrorists from al-Qaeda provided the short term ‘starter’ reason, to go to Afghanistan, except of course they never bothered to find OBL…george said it wasn’t important. (their proximity to the Caspian sea is…pipeline is impressive as well)

Still, one of its many intended purposes was already established, in advance, by Rumsfeld himself. He said, “We need a New Pearl Harbor.” Ergo, 9/11

So, in addition to providing a way to blow up the WTC as an insurance scam for Larry Silverstein, (and blaming it on 19 Arabs with boxcutters) It kicked off the whole farce of the “war on terror”. Same with the Pentagon hit, except of course no 757 ever hit the Pentagon.

Pretending that it too, had been hit by Arab terrorists, was all the more reason to launch into the ‘war on terror” which has in fact been a ‘war OF terror” and has allowed them to do unspeakable things to reduce our government and our Constitution to shreds. THAT’S why – moron. It’s why Congress allowed them to use force to start the illegal invasion and permanent occupation of Iraq. They hoped for legal cover from the International community, but the International community was not fooled, (No proof of WMD, so the UNSC would not approve a resolution to hit Iraq, which is why Colin Powell very quietly WITHDREW that resolution request, and Rummy-Cheney went ahead without it) Still, they tried, by first claiming a Saddam connection to 9/11 and then the WMD that didn’t exist). Remember the mushroom cloud Condi told us about? Well….there you have it.

TBC

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By cyrena, October 23, 2007 at 1:21 am Link to this comment

Part 2 of 2 #108828

But, there’s more. This has also allowed them to strip you of all of your rights, to lock you up without benefit of habeas corpus, to spy on you, to take ALL of your tax dollars, (not to mention your kids/their kids/repeat for 7 generations) and to violate all the laws of the Constitution, and then re-write them, to make them retro-actively legal, back to the time when they first began to commit the crimes. 

You say there was no benefit to the ‘government”? Well no, not if you’re talking about the government that existed before The Coup of December 2000. But the ‘government’ since then, has been the Dick Bush Cabal, and yes, it’s been overwhelmingly beneficial to them. They’ve been able to use OUR money, and OUR blood/troops, to do the Big OIL HEIST in Iraq, and to be geared up to hit Iran next. Cheney and Israel have plans for that oil. Plans made long, long ago. You really should pay more attention.

So, it wasn’t the ‘government’ that benefitted, unless you acknowledge the fact that Cheney and the rest of the neocons ARE ‘the government”. How the hell do you think they could do this, if they WEREN’T occupying the highest halls of ‘government’ and controlling everything that passes through, particularly all of the money, and not having to account for any of it? How else could they cover all of their tracks, if they weren’t in the ‘government’? Geemennie (as my dad would say) haven’t you been paying attention?

Do you not have a CLUE to how much money Cheney’s Halliburton has bilked from us? All of the private ‘government’ contractors that have taken over ALL government institutions? ALL connected to the original Cabal? $10 billion a month and counting, just for Iraq, Do you really think that money is actually being spent on troops? OH PLEASE. It’s one gigantic money laundering operation, and they haven’t even got to all of the oil yet. (or at least the Iraqis still haven’t been willing to sign it over, based on the contracts that Cheney had drawn up long ago, so they would do exactly that).

No BENEFITS? Oh PLEASE….

And what are you gonna do about it? NOTHING! Because…you’re too busy hiding from non-existent Islamic terrorists. And, if ever you ‘forget’ to be afraid, (or miss a colored warning code) they’ll zap your ass again, and tell you that the ‘terrorists’ did it.

And, they would be right. It’s just that it’s not Arab/Islamic terrorists. It’s the terrorists in the White House and the Enclaves in Kennebunkport, Houston, (and now Dubai, since Halliburton lives there now…no taxes to pay us on all of those trillions) and Virginia.

And, as long as you remain appropriately afraid, the Congress will keep giving them OUR money, so they don’t have to use any of their own. Yeah…9/11 kicked it all off, and Larry Silverstein and others are laughing all the way to his off shore accounts from the proceeds.

And, those are only PART of the benefits. I just don’t have time to finish them for you right now.

Don’t forget to be afraid, and make sure your Congress People keep giving them our money, so they can keep things going. Iran is next. We’re supposed to be afraid of them too. That’s why they’ve been lying on them, same as Saddam. They aren’t worried about OBL, since he’s obviously dead, but he’s served his purpose anyway, now that we have a new terrorist boogey man.

ANY TIME they want to do ANYTHING, they blame it on 9/11 and the ‘war on terror’. It’s a never ending war, to keep you shocked/awed/terrorized for the rest of your days.

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By Tony Wicher, October 22, 2007 at 11:13 pm Link to this comment

Re #108890 by 911truthdotorg on 10/22 at 6:54 pm

I can’t say that I know what really happened, but I believe this administration is capable of anything. I don’t see why a few well-trained Blackwater types could not have set charges if they had the proper authorization and access.

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By cyrena, October 22, 2007 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

#108828 by Akira_Maritias

•  ….”A lot of people died, and I bet that their families -don’t- want to hear someone saying that they died BECAUSE of their government; that it was all staged and preplanned and they could have lived. No one needs to hear that; no one but YOU and the other conspiracy theorist whackjobs, anyway.”…

Actually Akira,

You’re wrong here, in telling anybody, (INCLUDING the families of the WTC catastrophe) what they should or shouldn’t ‘want’ to hear. The truth is that they DID want to ‘hear’ because they wanted to KNOW what happened to their loved ones that day. As a matter of fact, that’s why they put themselves, (those widows in New Jersey as well as New York) through the long enduring process of finding out, and what a process that was.

If not for them, we would never have gotten even the bogus ‘official’ version of the story, because this administration did EVERYTHING they could, to avoid doing any sort of an investigation. THEY DID NOT WANT THAT. And, if you take the time to read that very distorted document, you might figure it out. Then again, maybe not.

Whatever the case, the official commission report was my own firm PROOF that the 9/11 official story was a line. Prior to that, I had only many unanswered questions. And NO, I’m not a wacky conspiracy theorist, just a long term aviation professional.

So, whether you think these families want to hear the truth or not isn’t for you to decide. We ALL deserve to know the truth, which is that our government attacked us on 9/11. Yes, MANY of us saw those airplanes hit the WTC. They did. They did NOT – however, cause those towers to fall. NO BUILDINGS have EVER fallen in their own footsteps in LESS THAN 10 SECONDS as a result of an airplane strike. It is an impossibility. It does not happen, and all the tapes and videos in the world, cannot make that so.

Yes, the airplanes hit the buildings, which were already rigged for demolition. Period, dot, end of story. The buildings were blown up. There were no high-jackers with box cutters. (at least not Arab terrorists). No pilots navigated such an operation. Yes, there were pilots in the planes, but they did not run those airplanes into those buildings.

NO AIRPLANE hit the Pentagon. It didn’t happen. I don’t know what became of AA fight 77 or it’s crew and passengers, but it didn’t hit the Pentagon.

Same with UA flight 93. It did not crash in a field in Shanksville. If it had, we would have seen an emergency response to that, (same as every other airplane that has ever crashed) and we did not. Same thing with the Pentagon. No signs of an airplane. No debris anywhere. No even a broken wing light. No emergency vehicle response. There are maybe two photos available – showing a single fire truck with a single hose, and a hole in the building that no airplane could have ever fit through.

So, I would be more than happy to believe the official story, and put it to rest. And, if you can provide some photos that would make ANY reasonable person, (who has witnessed more than her fair share or aviation accidents) I would be very grateful to see them.

However, it’s been six years, and NO ONE has EVER made such routine evidence available. NOTHING. So, until they can come up with that, (which they cannot) we’ll all continue to wonder what really happened. Since I’m pretty sure I know what happened, the only question I have now is…what happened to the passengers and crews from flights 77 and 93. I want to know that.

And yes, those people died, BECAUSE of their government. Of course it’s horrible, but it’s the truth. So, don’t decide for them, whether or not they want to know the truth. It’s not your place to do that.

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By truthNuggets, October 22, 2007 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hey Frikken:

>>I have still never heard from any conspiracy-minded type how they can accept that this so-called conspiracy could have been so well executed and so well covered up by an administration that has proven itself to be so utterly incompetent in executing a battle plan or covering up malfeasance. <<

Thanks for bringing up incompetence. Yes the admin will go down in history as being the most incompetent. Why GWB himself was chosen to be president for this very reason. Incompetence did in fact play a major part in the events of 9/11. I will give three examples right off the top of my head:

building 7 was not hit by an airplane, but it collapses at free fall speed at 5:20pm. it was was the lynch-pin event that created the 9/11 truth movement. Also BBC was highly incompetent in broadcasting that bldg 7 had collapsed before it actually happened…a script fell into the wrong hands back in the UK. why bldg 7 is a frikken goldmine of incompetence. and…

if you look closely at the debris photos of the pentagon, you’d be hard pressed to see anything that looks like a 757. no luggage, no fuselage, no massive tubojet engines.  somebody forgot to actually fly a 757 into the building and…

Admin wasn’t able to control the initial news spin: day of comments were broadcast: “massive explosions”, “looks like controlled demolition”, or “don’t see plane wreckage here [pentagon]”.

Incompetence did play a major factor in the events. They left behind so many clues that they launched the truth movement.

Hey Frikken Kid and others please do your homework. Spend some time with architectural experts at http://www.ae911truth.org

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By 911truthdotorg, October 22, 2007 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment

MaxxDenver -

I don’t have a “version”.

All I know is the following:

No 757 wreckage, bodies, etc at the Pentagon.
No wreckage, etc at Shanksville, PA “crash site”, but wreckage spread over several square miles.
WTC Bldg 7 collapsed perfectly on itself for NO reason. CNN, BBC announces it 20 min before it happened.
Several “war games” occurring on 9/11 simulating exactly what was happening that day.
The FBI has no evidence linking Osama bin Laden to 9/11. Nothing links him to 9/11 at http://www.fbi.gov.
Cheney given control of NORAD on June 1, 2001.
The Generals had always been in control of it until then.

I can go on and on.

So, I don’t have a “version” of what happened…
all I do know is that the “official” story and the
9/11 Commission are bullshit!!

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By MaxxDenver, October 22, 2007 at 8:27 pm Link to this comment

You “right wing tool” guys are too much.  Just goes to show how illogical you bunch are.  Anyone that doesn’t agree with *your* offical version must be a right-wing tool, huh?  I suppose anyone that has a TV show and doesn’t allow you to spout your gibberish is a right wing tool too.  I’ve never voted Republican in my life, but I guess I’m just a right wing tool.

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By 911truthdotorg, October 22, 2007 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher -

Jon Stewart is a right wing tool like Maher.

He’s made comments on his show saying the same type things as Maher - that anyone who doesn’t believe the official lie is insane.

Google videos: 9/11 Press for Truth, Loose Change 2nd Edition, Terror Storm

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By John Borowski, October 22, 2007 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Akira Maritias makes a profound statement: I don’t need to, however. I saw the planes hit. I -know-that steel loses its’ strength quickly at a certain temperature (lower than the temp that fuel burns) Did you get a passing grade in science? Write or use the Internet to Underwriters Laboratories. Or, if you are in college ask some professor in metallurgy if steel will lose its strength from the heat produced by jet fuel. Especially under the conditions impose on steel at the World Trade Center. The highest temperature jet fuel can attain is 1832 F (This temperature only under ideal conditions). The thick black smoke tells an intelligent person that the jet fuel is starved for oxygen which means the temperature is far lower than if it burns under ideal conditions. The temperature exposed to the steel at most is 1157 Fahrenheit. Steel would not lose its strength at these “cool temperatures” it needs at least 2800 Fahrenheit. Because of the Empire State building was hit in the forties by an army bomber (last time I looked the old girl was still standing) the World Trade was built to withstand a jet plane hit with the jet fuel spilling all over the place. In about 3 minutes the fuel was dissipated. There were fires in sky scrapers in Madrid, Philadelphia and South America that burned for days and all of them are still standing today. There have never been sky-scrapers that fell from fire, many of them exposed to far greater temperatures than the World Trade Center. You should ask somebody if you don’t know what you’re talking. I suggest you spend a few days on Web sites that discuss the World Trade Center. One of them for starters is ae91truth.org a web site for architects and engineers. (There are many more that have intelligent, highly trained, and honest people.) If you are open minded I assure you that you will change your opinion. PS If you are referring to cooking gas there ain’t none. It is all electric.

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By Scott, October 22, 2007 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

Whether it’s true or not, the fact that a third or more of American’s wouldn’t put 9/11 past their government is an appalling indictment. What surprises me is that a 2nd American civil war hasn’t broken out between these and the roughly equal number of Americans who believe Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11.

America seems hoplessly lost and adrift on a vast ocean of confusion.

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Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, October 22, 2007 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

As far as Bill Maher goes, he has a right to host whomever he wants on his show, and the format does not include audience participation. He could have a 9-11 conspiracy advocate for a guest, but so far he has chosen not to. Personally I would like that. If he has a lot of fans that would like that, they should tell him that via his blogs and chat rooms. If they interrupt his show, they should not expect him to react in any way other than he did. 

Have you 9-11 conspiracy guys tried Jon Stewart?

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By feetofclay, October 22, 2007 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Akira_Maritias said-
Morons. Idiots on a level that makes me want to bash my skull in.

Goody!

Could you post that on YouTube?

9/11 was an inside job! Bush knew!

Bill Maher is a tool!

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By feetofclay, October 22, 2007 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

verla mae said-
I know this: four of them with box cutters didn’t pour jet fuel on Pruit-Igo and bring it down with a match.

LMAO!

911 was an inside job! Bush knew!

Bill Maher is a Republican tool.

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By niloroth, October 22, 2007 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

thank you, but i am quite familiar with mr Gage.  Lets see, in his presentation he lists 3 buildings that burned for hours without falling down, and claims that these 3 buildings are “all being utilized today”.  Well, that would be a bit of a surprise to the people who are currently working on rebuilding one of them, and the people who had to demo one of the others.  By the way none of this is new information, so why would he lie (and keep lying) about it?  There is also his statement that there were “no macroscopic pieces of concrete at ground zero”  Which would come as quite a shock to the people who are working on the macroscopic pieces at hanger 17 of the Kennedy International Airport.  And of course there is the statement “Molten iron is the product of the incendiary thermite, a cutter charge which is used in many controlled demolitions”.  Except for the part where he has never mentioned even one example of a CD that involved thermite as a cutter charge.  Not even one.  But do make sure to visit his site to see the neat things he has on sale, like his 9/11 cards, and his DVD, i am telling you, these people are just making money off the fact that you folks are so gullible. 

This man is lying, and you are falling for it.

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By Akira_Maritias, October 22, 2007 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

Maddox gets the points down very quickly and easily, and, he does it in a humorous way. However, I could easily see how someone would get offended and cry about it. Naughty words are worthy of making grown people cry, after all.

“Akira_Maritias, normally I don’t read, let alone reply to profanity filled rants, but in this case I will say just the following:”

I am sorry that you consider mine to be profanity ‘filled’, but I guess that’s what happens when you take a quick glance at a post and judge it. Hopefully you won’t go to any middle schools, high schools, or colleges anytime soon; their swearing would probably give you a heart attack.

“How many documents have been leaking out of Blackwater headquarters lately?

It would take a long time, measured in months, according to the demolition experts interviewed as a part of Richard Gage’s presentation on how the towers fell, but if they had the time and the access a trained team of only two or three demolition experts could have set up the necessary devices in the Twin Towers.”

And, as always, I would like to ask: Why? Furthermore, this fails to cover the other two parts of 9/11: United 93 and the Pentagon. Did the government just get bored and decide to wreck up a few more people’s lives while they were at it?

“Perhaps you have seen the Popular Mechanics video that purports to explain how the Towers came down.  Their single “demolition expert” claimed that it would be impossible to have “strung all the wires” necessary.

If you watch Mr. Gage’s presentation you will see that modern demolitions are done using wireless units that have digital interfaces like cell phones that wait for a precise digital code to be received and the entire symphony of explosions is controlled remotely via a computer and a microwave transmitter.  Examples of such devices are pictured on one of the 300+ PowerPoint slides in Mr. Gage’s presentation.”

I don’t need to, however. I saw the planes hit. I -know- that steel loses its’ strength quickly at a certain temperature (lower than the temp that fuel burns). A plane slamming into a building probably -would- sound like explosions. Anything with gas in it could easily ignite to create more explosions. Besides, don’t you think that some of the workers in WTC would have noticed a few morons frolicking about with explosives and the like?

Considering that there would be -no- benefit for the government to attack WTC and the Pentagon, it must have been to start a war. However, you can clearly see that Bush has no qualms with starting a war for no reason. So, that would mean that this ‘carefully planned strike’ by our government was a big waste of time, which essentially means that they just wanted to kill some Americans. Which doesn’t make sense.

So, whatever. I don’t care if you’re really that ridiculous (dumb) to believe that it was a conspiracy. Go ahead and scheme quietly; plan petty things about how Bush intends to kill you in your sleep. I don’t much care if this is how you make yourself feel good at night after 9/11. But you need to stay away from message boards, reality, and, uh, the general PUBLIC with such claims. A lot of people died, and I bet that their families -don’t- want to hear someone saying that they died BECAUSE of their government; that it was all staged and preplanned and they could have lived. No one needs to hear that; no one but YOU and the other conspiracy theorist whackjobs, anyway.

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By John Borowski, October 22, 2007 at 1:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Regarding the Conspiracy in 9/11(Yes,I know the right-wingers have made the word conspiracy and Do-Good Liberal worst than coitus because they control the majority of the media) there are thirty six percent of Americans that believe the government is involved in the World Trade Center conspiracy. Many more Americans also believe the government is involved, but think it is better just to keep their mouths shut. There are one hundred well known prominent Americans that believe 9/11 was perpetrated by the government. There are one hundred ten survivors and families involved with 9/11 believe that the government was involved in 9/11. There are one hundred twenty distinguished professors that believe the government was involved with 9/11. The one writing this comment believes the government was involved in 9/11. (Enough said?)

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By heaavyrunner, October 22, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment

Akira_Maritias, normally I don’t read, let alone reply to profanity filled rants, but in this case I will say just the following:

How many documents have been leaking out of Blackwater headquarters lately?

It would take a long time, measured in months, according to the demolition experts interviewed as a part of Richard Gage’s presentation on how the towers fell, but if they had the time and the access a trained team of only two or three demolition experts could have set up the necessary devices in the Twin Towers. 

Perhaps you have seen the Popular Mechanics video that purports to explain how the Towers came down.  Their single “demolition expert” claimed that it would be impossible to have “strung all the wires” necessary.

If you watch Mr. Gage’s presentation you will see that modern demolitions are done using wireless units that have digital interfaces like cell phones that wait for a precise digital code to be received and the entire symphony of explosions is controlled remotely via a computer and a microwave transmitter.  Examples of such devices are pictured on one of the 300+ PowerPoint slides in Mr. Gage’s presentation.

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By Verla Mae, October 22, 2007 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Is any building that falls down a controlled demolition?  How would you have expected the towers to fall?  Where do you get that the military is good at CD?  Was the event in St Louis done by the military, or private contractors?”

The City contracted the National Guard. Google it for yourself. Back when they did it, they showed it on regular television. So, videos of the event are still available. Get yourself a good gander at the footage. Then, since you know so damned much, you can come back and tell me how many it took to do the job, and what was used. I know this: four of them with box cutters didn’t pour jet fuel on Pruit-Igo and bring it down with a match.

Yes, the military is very good at controlled demolition. A lot of construction workers who specialize in demolitions got their start in the Armed Forces as construction specialist skilled in how to build stuff out in a crunch, then blow it up fast to clear out in a hurry.

Jet fuel is nothing more than a better grade of kerosene. Kerosene does not melt steel. And, it doesn’t powder concrete. All I am saying is that this would not have been the first time military specialists have been used on a civil project. If the Twin Towers had stopped making the owners money, for all we know, this might have been an urban renewal project. It’s how insurance is routinely collected in the real estate world. Larry Silverstein got double indemity because it was a terrorist attack. How convenient that it was also the catalyzing Pearl Harbor the PNAC gang needed to get us off to where we are now.

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By heaavyrunner, October 22, 2007 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

MaxDenver you should review the presentation by Richard Gage at:

http://www.ae911truth.org/

I would recommend watching his presentation “How the Towers Fell” and then if you have questions you can go through his PowerPoint slides on your own.

Asking how the demolitions could have been started just above the impact zones is a good question.  After all, who could predict with certainty which floors the planes would strike?

Mr. Gage addresses that issue in his presentation quite convincingly.

And, Nilroth, I think you will find all your questions answered adequately in Mr. Gage’s presentation too. 

As it turns out, enough steel was saved and is publicly available in monuments to allow physicists to determine that the cutting of the steel was done using a special compound the military uses to cut armor.  It’s called Thermate, and leaves an unusual chemical footprint that has been isolated and identified in high concentrations in the dust from the towers. You will find detailed explanations of this with referenced substantiation in peer reviewed published papers footnoted in Mr. Gage’s presentation.

He is no lightweight.

If you take the time to watch Mr. Gage’s presentation I predict that you will begin questioning yourself what happened that day.

Architects for 9/11 Truth, the organization Mr. Gage founded, has as its goal and major demand a full and complete investigation of the events of 9/11/2001.

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By Jaded Prole, October 22, 2007 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

” challenge Bob Greenberg or anyone else to submit a documented case of fire causing a steel reinforced building to collapse occurring anywhere on Earth. “

Well it wasn’t a building but a re-inforced steel freeway exit in Frisco collapsed last year due to a gasoline truck burning . . .

What we KNOW is that the official story is BS and the cover-up obvious. We really don’t know anything else and the veritable conspiracy cult that has developed does take away credibility from the demands for an outside investigation. That’s all we should be demanding and the the truth—whatever it is—come to light. I think that passive complicity is easily provable and that in itself is a crime of great proportion.

Why would “our own” government” do such a thing? This crew has never cared a shred for anything that stood in the way of their agenda and a Reichstag Fire was what they needed.

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