I don’t know why it has to be an either or question. There are definitely many political and economical realities that have driven the situation this far, but that isn’t to say that religion doesn’t have any part in this.

I definitely agree that what needs to be done to defuse the situation in Iraq isn’t to abolish religion. There are too many practical realities that have to be faced before there would be any sense in even discussing how to lessen religions negative effects.

However that is not the same as saying religion hasn’t got anything to do with the situation we are currently in. If God wouldn’t speak privately to Mr. Bush, there might not be any war in Iraq. The attitudes and certainty that religion make easier are quite hard to attain if one has no omnipotent higher being to refer to and when one has to think a bit more thoroughly about the consequences of one’s actions.

I really didn’t like Saddam, but I don’t see that anything has really changed for the better, except of course for Halliburton & co. Everyone else is just going to get to enjoy a world more dangerous and unstable than the one we lived in before US invaded Iraq. And even though I definitely believe that the primary reasons for invading Iraq were financial and had lots more to do with oil than helping Iraqis or any religious reasons, it seems quite obvious to me that religion sure as **** isn’t helping any. On either side of the equation.

Barry,

Your central thesis is that radical Islam is a protest against real conditions and injustices on the ground.  In your view, it is a way for the poverty-stricken, oppressed peoples to resist imperialism.

You need to get over this idea.  It is utter nonsense, plain and simple.

Radical Islam is not the answer to poverty and unemployment.  Radical Islam is what produces poverty and unemployment.  It is not a means for liberation.  It is the obstacle to liberation.  As I’ve said before, radical Islam is intrinsically fascistic and oppressive.  If you think radical Islam shares your liberal values –an astonishing claim on its face—you are kidding yourself.

The decay of once great cities such as Beirut and Cairo cannot be blamed entirely on America.  Their slow, gradual decline maps perfectly with the ascendance of various radical Islamic movements. 

Religious extremism may require a certain degree of poverty to gain momentum.  But once off the ground it sustains and amplifies poverty.  It is not an answer to poverty.

Barry and Cyrena,

The thrust of your argument is that Western power is a malevolent force and that Mid East problems essentially reduce to problems of American and Israeli foreign policy.  The madness we currently witness in the region is almost entirely a result of Western intervention.  The corollary is that if we leave the region tomorrow, these people are guaranteed to embrace tolerance, equality, and love of one’s neighbor.  Unfortunately, there is a great deal of evidence to suggest this is not the case.

I agree with your condemnation of the Bush administration.  Bush is a right-wing authoritarian who governs through ignorance, fear, and secrecy.  Both he and his vice president should be impeached and possibly tried for war crimes.  Their own religious sentiments, and the anti-intellectualism and anti-scientific approach it entails, have created huge problems for the US on a variety of fronts.

I understand your reticence to support anything this president does.  Despite their criminality and obvious failures, I urge you to consider the notion that not all problems in the world reduce to George Bush or Dick Cheney.  The US really does have enemies.  The Noam Chomsky’s of the world deny this, and cater rather cynically to a strange kind of masochism that exists on the Left.

I do not have time to respond to your recent posts in a tit-for-tat manner.  There is simply too much to disagree with.  Here are some of the larger problems I have with your arguments.  You consistently:

-Deny the causative power of belief
-Deny the difference between authoritarianism and imperfect democracy
-Deny the moral difference between frank terrorism and responses to terrorism that result in collateral damage
-Deny the medievalism of contemporary Islam and clear distinctions between its doctrines and those of other religions
-Underestimate the number of casualties directly attributable to Muslim on Muslim violence (Sunni vs. Shia)
-Underestimate the extent to which American intervention has merely unmasked pre-existing religious hatreds that have nothing to do with us

For more in-depth treatment of Islam, terrorism, and responses to terrorism, I’d like to recommend the following books:

Londonistan (Melanie Phillips)
Why I am Not a Muslim (Ibn Warraq)
Leaving Islam (Ibn Warraq)
Infidel (Ayaan Hirsi Ali)
The Trouble with Islam Today (Irshad Manji)
While Europe Slept (Bruce Bawer)
Because They Hate (Brigitte Gabriel)
The Case for Israel (Alan Dershowitz)
The Koran

Comment#85177 by BFskinnerPunk on 7/08 at 3:33 pm

BF,

So sorry for the delayed response. There didn’t seem to be much more to say. You’re still real stuck on proving that Islam is the root of all evil, and…like so many others, simply fail to see the larger picture.

So no, for the time at least, you aren’t gonna get it. You’re not gonna get that “religion” could be entirely removed from the picture, and you would still have this violence going on.

You are unable to see that, because you are somehow very “captivated” by all of these “perversions”, since it’s the only thing you know about the religion of Islam, or the cultures, or the traditions, or anything really. Your posts have proven that, as your return again, and again, and again, in each and every one of your posts, to point to what are barbaric practices in ANY religion, (or even atheist perverts)even though this kind of stuff is NO MORE ACCEPTED in the Muslim faith than it is in any other one. And yet, you will not acknowledge that.

You will not acknowledge that the U.S. policies, toward the Middle East -IN GENERAL- have, for at least the past 30 years, generated this violence that is destroying the region, and in all honesty and sincerity, I’ve needed to accept the fact that it’s all been quite deliberate.

This disaster that is the Middle East is a MAN MADE disaster, a result of massive and constant us of aggressive military force against multiple populations of people who have no way to fight back, and yet they still are, by whatever means they can come by.

One other thing that we also know by now, after so much of the created propaganda, is that all of these “alleged” suicide attacks really AREN’T necessarily sectarian related. Matter of fact, we’re finding that MOST of the civilian deaths are happening as a result of US AIRSTRIKES, (always they claim to be targeting “insurgents” and always the “insurgents” turn out to be civilians,...including women and children.)

ALWAYS “including women and children”...it’s like a template in today’s journalism, because it’s an everyday thing. And, it’s the thing that you can’t or won’t see. Because…you’re basically doing a tunnel vision analysis of the TREE, and totally oblivious to the fact that it’s part of a FOREST, and in your case, an almost insignificant part. (like the stonings and honor killings). Like I said, you seem somehow captivated by all of that pathological stuff, even though it has little (actually NO) significance to the chaos that we are living with now.

Yes, we do see barbaric behavior, on-going, in-progress, every day. However, that is carnage that is being (for the most part) indiscrimately applied by the U.S. forces. Check out the TomDispatch article here on the site. It’s very informative. A word on who those “insurgents” -ARE NOT-, and more on exactly who’s doing the most killing right now.

Daughter of the sand:
a poem by Sofia Baig:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=65695252

Dear Nahida,

I have preserved your last post to me, because I take it as an overwhelming compliment, and it cheers me, maybe more than you know. People who think as I do, (and there are indeed more of us than the major media makes known) have had pretty much of a solitary existence these past several years. A euphemism would have us standing alone in a crowd of sheeple that are all rushing passed us, straight toward the cliff, as we feebly holler in the wind, “NO, NO….that is NOT the way to go!!” But, they’re all caught up in the man-made hysteria, whose attention cannot be distracted toward anything beyond the superficial.

Anyway, oddly enough, I have not yet claimed the full “atheist” identification, because I was myself, raised in a semi-religious environment. I attended Catholic schools for all of my primary education, (K-12 as it is described here in the states) and at least part of my family have been very steeped in the traditions and tenets of that faith. For MYSELF however, I learned early to separate the myth from the realities, of what “faith” should really be. I also long ago determined that most people here in my own country, (or of the proscribed “Christian” faith), didn’t understand the difference between “religion” and “spirituality”. For me, there is a huge difference. I still hold for the spiritual part of our collective lives, and I have always embraced the concept of a “higher power”. There is far too much of this life that cannot be otherwise explained.

Still, the genuine tenets of ANY person of faith should begin with all of what you’ve already given me credit for, and that is just being a humanist, and a person who puts respect for the dignity and well-being of ALL others, ahead of everything. That’s my faith.

For whatever the reason, Christians in the U.S. have lost their way. They’ve been brainwashed into conflating Christianity with some form of U.S. nationalism. This is a crime. It is an “assault” on the Word, (as the evangelicals refer to the Bible) and now they have begun to be “exposed” for the hypocrites that they are. I would like to believe that this “trend” is beginning to reverse itself, but there is no denying that these “forces” are still in effect, and they are difficult to counter, as you can see from so many of the posts here.

I can also readily identify with the horrors that you’ve experienced in terms of having the police break-in on your child –being a child- because I’ve been through multiple episodes of the same. That was particularly the case when I lived in the southern portions of the U.S., as a woman of color who insisted on maintaining the very open-mindedness for which you have credited me. Oh, the stories I could tell you. But, I won’t. At least not now.

What’s far more important is that I’ve actually survived, and there are many others of us floating around on the periphery right now, where truth seekers/tellers have been banished, but we’re still holding on. They haven’t wiped us out yet, nor have they managed to plant those chips in ALL of our minds or spirits.

Peace shall prevail…..

US Middle East Wars: Social Opposition and Political Impotence

{Everywhere I visit from Copenhagen to Istanbul, Patagonia to Mexico City, journalists and academics, trade unionists and businesspeople, as well as ordinary citizens, inevitably ask me why the US public tolerates the killing of over a million Iraqis over the last two decades, and thousands of Afghans since 2001?}

By James Petras

read article here:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17985.htm

For all that love the links Nahida posts, I figured I’d give it a shot.
This news article on Reuters is one in which the Iraqi’s are saying that if we withdraw, massive violence will ensue.
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSYAT71336220070709?pageNumber=1

Dear cyrena
I am quite impressed with your analysis and even more with your open-mindedness that you exhibited over many posts.

You and I perhaps hold a very different view with regards to faith; however, what we have in common is GREAT, we have immense love of humanity, tolerance, justice and peace.

We long for a better world, and that dear, we will be able to achieve despite the efforts of hate-filled souls that want to see war and more war.

Btw, I worked and still work with many secular and atheist people who are exemplary in their dedication to justice and peace issues, and who –unlike many posters here- are tolerant and open-minded with regards to people of faith.

They respect people’s views and don’t try impose their ideology on others, nor do they ask for the eradication of faith.

I am too -like you- very suspicious of the recent events, and going through some experience myself where we have been raided by the police as “terror suspects”.

It was to their shame that the “terrorist” whom they were after was my baby son, only a child, who fell asleep while reading Harry Potter’s stories when they invaded his bedroom.

But I imagine that if he wasn’t a child he would’ve been taken, and we would’ve made it to the front page news.

Dear Nahida,

on comment#85255 by nahida on 7/09 at 12:29 am

Ya know…I don’t know. I don’t understand why he has been allowed to “go free”, unless in fact this is simply more “propaganda”? I ask that because I honestly don’t know. I doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me, but i’m still trying to piece things together as I go.

All in all, I’d say that he’s given this platform for a reason…to help spread the propaganda. As a matter-of-fact, I was thrown off by his comment that he and his former co-conspirators would “laugh” at our assessment that it IS in fact U.S. policies in the Middle East, (over the past several decades of course, but the real scam with the “war on terro” is still relatively new, and they do keep recycling it)that have created the violence in the region, and the Israel/Palestine conflict is at the center of it all.

At least that has been my assessment, and I admit that I’m still making my way through the history.

Everything is very mixed-up, because this is coming up at the same time as this most recent alleged terror plot, and even THAT sounds very “suspect”. (at least to me it does.)

So, it’s all very “suspect. Still, most of my own study has been on the Israel/Palestine conflict, and I have never been able to make a connection in my own mind, to a “jihad” based movtivation in that conflict. Rather, I have viewed those operations of alleged “terror” by the Palestinians, as simply asymetrical warfare, and that’s pretty much the way I have always seen it. BUT…I’m not a Muslim. So, I have to always try to put myself in whatever the appropriate mindset is. For that of course, I have to keep talking to people like you!!

Meantime, while I’m not trying to trivialize the operations that are costing so many lives as we speak, I’m also convinced that the real terrorists (at least the most dangerous ones) are right here in our white house, and the first thing we have to do is get them the hell out of Iraq. And, Israel needs to finally get back on her own little space of whatever it is that is “Israel”, and give the Palestinians back their lives.

They could have avoided ALL of this.

Meantime, we have to keep trying to sort through all of the fear mongering propaganda.

Dear cyrena, with regards to your post #84955, I would like to pose a question for you to ponder upon;

Hassan Butt’s says: “I left the BJN in February 2006, but if I were still fighting for their cause, I’d be laughing once again. Mohammad Sidique Khan, the leader of the 7 July bombings, and I were both part of the BJN - I met him on two occasions - and though many British extremists are angered by the deaths of fellow Muslim across the world, what drove me and many of my peers to plot acts of extreme terror within Britain, our own homeland and abroad, was a sense that we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary state that would eventually bring Islamic justice to the world….

This has left the territory of ideas open for radicals to claim as their own. I should know because, as a former extremist recruiter, every time mosque authorities banned us from their grounds, it felt like a moral and religious victory.”

From the above, Hassan Butts admits plotting “extreme terror within Britain” and being an “extremist recruiter”….

Now for all sanity’s sake, why on earth is he not with other colleagues (who in fact -unlike him- are not charged with anything) in Guantanamo??

Why is he free?

Furthermore, why is he given such a prominent space to writefreely in a mainstream newspaper?

Normally, if a criminal admits his crime, he is still punished for it even if he comes to regret it; what happened here? Why is he not made to pay for his crimes as a terrorist??

“None of this stuff” was happening before the U.S. invasion? 

I would say that all of the Abrahamic religions have been doing very bad things from their very origins, and many bad things based purely upon religion.  It’s not like Islamists were just meditating with the Buddhists before the invasion.

It’s almost the only “stuff” that I ever see in terms of news stories and radical behavior that has been causing so much grief in the region since I can remember… (which would be the early 70’s).

The reformation experienced by Christians/Jews has reduced their religious extremism to a relatively small portion of the action.

Trust me, when a Christian goes crazy… the news is all over it, it’s not like they suppress that stuff.

Islam happens to be producing the superstars of religious violence in almost any category you can think of:  killing each other based on differences in views, killing their own family members based on religious transgressions, killing citizens based on behavior that run counter to Islamic teaching. 

As I sit here, the news is displaying the mayhem as a new set of 25 Muslims (in a market) have died at the hands of another sect.  Will this stop if the U.S. pulled out?  I’m guessing “no”.

By removing the heavy hand of Saddam, we have likely unleashed violence that, ironically, had been suppressed by Saddam’s nasty tactics.

Somehow, I doubt an attorney (Richard Falk) will help illuminate things any more than Hedges, Chomski, or Atran.

Clearly, people can do violent things without religious notions… of course.  No one is suggesting otherwise.

A Message From The “Iraq Resistance”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7468.htm
start quote:

{People of the world! These words come to you from those who up to the day of the invasion were struggling to survive under the sanctions imposed by the criminal regimes of the U.S. and Britain .

We are simple people who chose principles over fear.

We have suffered crimes and sanctions, which we consider the true weapons of mass destruction.

Years and years of agony and despair, while the condemned UN traded with our oil revenues in the name of world stability and peace.

Over two million innocents died waiting for a light at the end of a tunnel that only ended with the occupation of our country and the theft of our resources.

After the crimes of the administrations of the U.S and Britain in Iraq , we have chosen our future. The future of every resistance struggle ever in the history of man.

It is our duty, as well as our right, to fight back the occupying forces, which their nations will be held morally and economically responsible; for what their elected governments have destroyed and stolen from our land.

We have not crossed the oceans and seas to occupy Britain or the U.S. nor are we responsible for 9/11. These are only a few of the lies that these criminals present to cover their true plans for the control of the energy resources of the world, in face of a growing China and a strong unified Europe . It is Ironic that the Iraqi’s are to bear the full face of this large and growing conflict on behalf of the rest of this sleeping world.

We thank all those, including those of Britain and the U.S. , who took to the streets in protest against this war and against Globalism. We also thank France , Germany and other states for their position, which least to say are considered wise and balanced, til now…....}

Well BF,

It’s a new week, and indeed I would agree with you, that things only become worse, but I’m really not going to argue with you on this particular topic any longer.

Clearly, I’ve managed to “get it” long before you have, but that’s OK, because you may actually be beginning to “get it” yourself. Maybe. I’m holding out some hope for you.

Meantime, I noticed much earlier in the thread, that Nahida had posted something from Richard Falk, who happens to be one of the most esteemed experts on this topic. He is a human rights attorney, and one of the few professors around that’s older than me, (smile) so it wouldn’t hurt you to look up some of his other writing. When you have time. He’s also an American Jew.

But, keep this one thing in mind, because it’s important if you actually do have a genuine academic concern about this. What you see happening now, is not as “old” as the religion itself. In other words, the religion, (and here again, you still wish to only consider Islam, as opposed to religion in general) has been around forever. Things such as honor killings are very rare, and have been for a long time. Domestic abuse is not as prevalent in most Middle Eastern countries as it is right here in the US. These suicide bombings in Iraq are ALL new since the “war on terror”. Here again, your leaders created ALL of this murder and mayhem.

So, since basically NONE of this stuff was happening prior to the dick cheney campaign to terrorize the world, you have to (again) look beyond religion for the reasons. I keep telling you that, but I know this isn’t the easiest subject for a crash course.

Now, when the catalyst is removed, (i.e. the fuel that continues to flame the fire, which is the US military presence ALL OVER the Middle East) THEN we can look for some ways to deal with the secondary stuff. But, just removing ourselves from region, (since it is the very presence of the US military that has created this) will at least stop the violence. Right now, we just keep feeding it, and feeding it.

Back to the simplistic foundation….if WE were not THERE, this would not be taking place. They needed someplace to do this, and george made in all possible. The war on Iraq provided the thing that the Martyrs wanted. In other words, dick bush put “al-Qaeda” on the map so to speak. Before we built them up, and gave them “legitimacy” even though they had no real legitimacy before, because the bulk of the Islamic community condemns ALL of these kinds of activities, dick bush has in fact created a monster that is now totally out of control.

So, that would be the way to stop this violence, which is what I’ve been suggesting for over 4 years now. There needs to be “people who will fight” in order to maintain a conflict. If we weren’t there, we wouldn’t be in it, and I bet none of these other suicide bombings (that are only new to that area SINCE the invasion) would be happening.

We’ve already discussed the religion part of it, which YOU cannot change, nor can I. But, we CAN stop meddling, and adding the fuel to the fire.

STOP about the “honor killings” and the other practices which are mostly obsolete in that region now, and concentrate on what is creating this thing with the suicide bombings, which ARE new to the area, (excepting the very old conflict in Israel/Palestine, which has no direct connection to the violence that you see now). There is an indirect connection, because much of the wrath of the Muslim community is directed at the U.S., because of the part that we’ve played in supporting Israel in its own reign of terror.

But ultimately, you still cannot blame this on “religion” because if that were the case, it would have been happening before, and it did not.

As for the “copy” part of my earlier message, sorry…just habit. Not a juvenille habit, since I picked it up in my “adult” career. Just habit.

Cyrena,

In a previous post you dismissed our criticism as “Islamophobia”.

I reject this term.

It seems to me that if you have a belief system I don’t like, it is perfectly justifiable for me to be phobic about it.  Islam is not a group of people, it is an ideology.  It is a set of religious principles laid down on paper. 

If I don’t like the Harry Potter set of books, am I guilty of Harry Potter-phobia?

If I don’t like French cuisine, am I guilty of French cuisine-phobia?

If I think Scientology is bogus to the point of being obscene, am I guilty of Scientology-phobia?

Cyrena wrote:
“Copy, Copy…Got it all, and since we’ve been over it before, I won’t say much more.”

BF responds:
In spite of the annoyed and sarcastic teenager tone of this, I think you are indeed, *beginning* to “get it”.

Students in a Pakistani Islamic school just shot a commander and appear to be keeping women and children as human shields (seems to be a favorite tactic in those parts).

Now “try to understand WHY” (your caps)in your own way if you must, but I must suggest again that we start by actually listening to the words that are coming out of the mouths of those committing the violence.

What are they saying?  They are saying that they want Islamic Law in Pakistan.  (Can you detect religious reasons in their “WHY?” yet?)

I know it’s a stretch, but if we can accept that religion is motivating their violent decisions, what are we to do with our knowledge of “why?”?  What stops the violence? 

Even if there are no other complexities in their reasons, religion alone gives us one heck of a problem!  Should we respect their religious culture, and give them their Islamic nation?  That’s one solution to the violence…. in a way.  (of course, those darn beheadings and honor killings would continue at full speed).

Should we ignore their statements and try to apologize for them with Nahida’s poetry, and/or should we stretch into the realm of sociological guesses for the *real* reason?  And from which sociological philosopher do we seek are answers?  Hedges? Chomski?

We are well conditioned to avoid suggesting that religion can play a role in misbehavior.  For most of us, realizing this is a painful process. It’s the taboo that Sam Harris is trying to remove.

So, within a week, we have professionals who live an otherwise comfortable life attempting to kill civilians, Islamists killing and holding Muslims in a Pakistani school, and of course today’s truck bomb slaughter of 150 Kurdish and Shiite Muslims (injuring 250) in a marketplace.

These aren’t CNN lies or staged events…they are really happening in spite of what some may wish to suggest in this forum.

A conversation with any one of the perpetrators (take your pick) would probably be frustrating for Hedges as he tries to get the perpetrators to explain their behaviors without resorting to religious references.

Dr. Dahlia Wasfi - Life in Iraq Under U.S. Occupation

Must Watch Video

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17979.htm

#84961 by Logician on 7/07 at 11:00 pm

I copy all of this as well, Logician, and I’m largely in agreement with most of what you post here. (at least the stuff that matters)

We can also agree that “suicide bombings” cannot be “justified” under any circumstances. And yet, they have INCREASED in the global framework, in the past 6 years.

That tells me that it makes sense to try and understand WHY they happen, in order to STOP them from happening. That’s like the foundation of my logic on most things. First find out WHY, even if it means tracking it on a whole bunch of levels, because there could be many reasons “why”, related and inter-related. Consquently, we take the easy way out, by just blaming it all on “religion”.

So, to STOP these kinds of activities, we need to pay attention to WHY they happen in the first place.

Re#84937, 84924, 84898 by cyrena:

Well said.  I really can’t believe anyone with an IQ above retard level can justify the sh*t that has and is being done in the name of American Imperialism.

That said, I have to fault the two UK bombers and all the bombers in question, for the same reason I faulted my compatriots during the sixties.

No, I did not approve of Nixon and his troops.  But planting bombs on cop cars to ‘protest’ the clearly illegal war and others atrocities IS NOT THE WAY to change the system or clean the bums out.  Listening to their (the sixties idiots) revolutionary jargon as they tried to justify killing “pigs” was an exercise in absurdity.

Similarly, killing innocents by suicide bombings is INEXCUSABLE.  You have a problem, I have a problem, and certainly the victims of American Imperialism, have a problem with the disgusting little coke-sniffing, smarmy retard puppet with the corporate hand up his ass in the White House.  But killing innocent people because we’re pissed off at that sh*thead IS NOT RIGHT.  PERIOD. 

I don’t give a sh*t whether you use the economic argument, the political argument, the religious argument; killing those who are THEMSELVES as powerless as you is not only wrong, it JUSTIFIES Bush’s namecalling and policies. 

He calls you madmen, you act like madmen, suddenly he’s justified.  Get the picture?

I would think the reactions you are receiving here are of the visceral type: the pure anger at seeing innocents killed. Lesser minds will let those in charge tell them why, better minds will question the government line.  Those of us who DO care are trying our best to stop this insanely corrupt and evil group of perverts who have high-jacked our government. 

But as history shows, the Imperialism certainly did NOT start with BushCo.  Holding our government accountable is an ongoing process that starts as soon as we are aware.  I will admit to a killing rage myself when I see what has been done ‘in the name’ of America.  But at least I understand that who I’m mad enough to kill are those WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE for the atrocities, NOT my fellow world citizens.

Until the suicide bombings STOP, WHATEVER excuse you use, you (and those who agree with you) have NO moral ground to complain about ANYTHING being done to you or your country.  And much wrong IS being done, we ALL (or at least those above retard level) know that.  We want it stopped, too, but before you whine, stop killing people who are as innocent as you claim yourselves to be.

BF:

Copy, Copy…Got it all, and since we’ve been over it before, I won’t say much more.

HOWEVER, I did just run across what I believe to be an excellent article that does indeed address your questions and connections to the whole Islamic and Qur’an-inspired behavior.

It articulates, (far better than I have been able to, since I’m not a Muslim or any other “religion”) the more scholastic perspective that I’ve been trying to “convey”. In short, there is no “division”,(in a real or existential sense) between the politics of the people of Islam, and the theology of it. “secular” is simply not a concept that applies to that thinking…at least not in the way that we see it as Westerners.

But, I deter. Check out this article, for some current words from “the horses mouth” so to speak. And, if you want to hear from more of these people, (so that you really do understand) then I can direct you to some excellent sources, if only because I do not choose to “speak for them”.)

I’m suggesting that the Islamic community…world wide, is involved in a painful transformation. There has never been any doubt that the Middle Eastern region of the world has been much delayed in the re-interpretation of their theology, to one that does not employ these backward and primitive practices.

Their movements in this transition, while not always successful, are still on-going. Check Iran’s movements, the women’s movements in particular, not to mention the variety of other global organizations that have brought international power to the efforts, with multiple additions to the Conventions that address human rights. This is by the way, where my own interests are primarily focused.

I should add though, that as far as the “suicide” type attacks go…and specifically as they are related to the Israel/Palestine conflict, cannot be compared to the reasons behind the suicide operations that we see in places like the UK, or even in places like Afghanistan, or Iraq, where there was not this problem prior to the US sponsored “war on terror” .I read last week that there had been recorded some 193 suicide attacks, (one person operations that are more “one-on-one” than a planned attack on many), in the past several months. I can find no explanation for those, other than to say that those as well, have overwhelmingly increased in number, since the whole campaign began.

Anyway, this story, (you’ll have to click on the link to “article” once you’re in it) might really fill- in or help connect the dots in your theories.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,2121368,00.html

Cyrena,

In spite of your jabs, you are sounding like you are attempting to be more reasonable.

I am not the expert, and am not trying to infer the real meaning of the violence or the “real” message.  These guys speak for themselves.

In the recent UK bombing:
These guys have decent jobs, live in a free society, and have the luxury of blowing up a Mercedes… so to call these guys socio-economically-politically oppressed takes some hard core twists of reason. (although I’m sure Hedges and his ilk have worked it out to fit their argument) 

Forgive my leap of logic, but the shouts to “Allah!” at the instant of getting caught lead me to believe that religion is an essential part of their violent behavior.  Would they have non-religious reasons as a part of their rationale?... possibly… but would this lead them to seek to kill civilians (infidels)?

If people tended to kill (or stone their non-virgin daughters) just because they felt put-upon by society or otherwise oppressed, we would have a hard time taking a walk to the 7-11!  No, there must be some missing element that sends people into these freakish behaviors.

Deliver a convincing message of everlasting peace after death and a powerful tradition, and *now* you can get medical doctors, engineers, grad students and the like to slam themselves into buildings in a Boeing whilst proclaiming supernatural motivations.

#84907 by BFskinnerPunk on 7/07 at 5:15 pm

I forgot to address this part of your message Punk

“I suggest again:  Ask those medical doctors… you know, the guys with plenty of cash… ask them why they exploded those cars with visions of civilian deaths. See if their explanation isn’t chock full of Allah this and Koran that.”....

I have no idea what the financial status of these medical doctors, (the South Asian individuals that I believe you are referring to, that the msm has been providing so much detail on or about) might be. Not a clue. How much do medical doctors make in Pakistan, or Afghanistan? I don’t know, or really much care, since it doesn’t mean anything, when people are committing this type of violence.

The physicians that I personally know, are not ones with “big bucks”. Matter of fact, they have fewer and fewer bucks now, because they continue to treat patients that have no insurance, and no money to pay for health care. So, none of them are walking around with fat pockets. But, they are all HERE, in the US, and they don’t have any religious neuroses. They treat all patients as equal humans. Were they ever to stray from that foundational ideology, as well as their professional oath, then their skills would be certainly compromised.

So, contrary to your suggestion, as you wrote below:

....“They don’t need you to speak for them.  They aren’t children that need westerners to interpret their real meaning.  They are grown ups and they tell us why they act violently…”

I’m clearly not “speaking” for anybody. And, this comment is what brings out the juvenille pettiness that is so apparent in your communications, because you’ve told me the same thing a few dozen other times. And, I have responded with exactly the same thing that you’ve reworded above…NO they do NOT need anybody to “speak for them”, seeing as how they have indeed been “speaking for themselves” a very long time now, and it’s people like you and your comic strip gang, that just haven’t picked up on ANY of the messages.

I already got the messages a long time ago, so I don’t need to “query” or otherwise question these actions, since I know perfectly well where the cause of it lies. It’s a reaction to Western encroachment on their lives. And, as long as the demented shrub keeps his little rhetorical “war on terror” in full operation, this violence will continue.

Now, if YOU want to know the “particulars” of why these medically trained men have decided to engage in this political terror, you would in fact be wise to check-in with them personally. Meantime, check into Zawahiri as well. He’s the original co-founder (along with Osama bin Laden) of the “al-Qaeda” group as it came into existence some 20 or so years ago. (give or take, since there have been mergers and splinters, and then more mergers and more subdivisions). Now this guy is also a physician, specializing in PEDEATRICS, (so how’s that for a paradox?) Yeah, he’s actually contributed a great deal to the field over the years. So, maybe you could check-in with him as well, and find out why he does this stuff.

Is it the “religion” that makes him a professionally trained “healer” and the same religion that makes him a “terrorist”? I don’t know. You’re the expert.

No BF, I haven’t “drifted” in my overall assessment from the beginning. You’ve just chosen to target what you wish from my posts, and disregard the rest,  which is of course what you’re accusing me of doing.

I told you about 100 pages back in this thread, that I agreed with the first several minutes of Sam’s hypothesis. The extremities of all religions, are very bad news. (and, I really do wish that you’d take a moment, to read the links that I provided, if you really are interested in the cause/effects of these extremities, and how they can ALL in fact, create worldwide hysteria and violence.)

So, please don’t suggest that I’m “drifting” in the direction of Sam’s or wavelengths’ thinking. They have these neuroses of their own, based on the same premise as yours, which is that “Islamic” fundamentalists are responsible for all of the violence that we see now, (violence that has increased by 700% worldwide, since the invasion of Iraq…see the Iraq Effect at motherjones.com)and I know that does not hold up to any standard of reality.

Because, the violence that we see now, (EVERYWHERE) is a result of US policies (primarily in the Middle East). It is above and beyond everything else, POLITICAL VIOLENCE, that we see being played out in the form of suicide and other similar missions.

We were NOT seeing suicide missions in Iraq, prior to this take-over of that nation.

So again, my very fundamental disagreement with you, which remains, is this. The violence that we see around the world, (including the Middle East)is POLITICAL violence, and that it is NOT prompted by religious extremism. You have so far been unable to figure that out, for whatever the reason, and just because you don’t want to.

I admit that it is difficult to separate the two, without a clearer understanding of how politics and religion are (and always have been)“one and the same” in the tenets of Islam.

But, you don’t really need to understand that, for anyone’s benefit than your own.

Meantime, I stand by my argument, that this violence is politically motivated as a tool in what these people see as an attack on their world in general. And, looking at the everyday facts on the ground, it would appear that their concerns are validated. The U.S. looms over the entire region now, with all of it’s huge warships, (arrogantly carrying nuclear weapons through international waters, and “pop-calling” on any nation’s borders that they so choose). In general, terrorizing much of the Islamic world by intimidation and downright destruction.

So, if you honestly are concerned about this “terror”, or the violence in general, you need to look at the cause in the first place. You still won’t get to that.

Cyrena wrote: You keep talking about straw men, and you’re seemingly determined to misinterpret what I’ve said.

BF responds:
Well, let’s see where I’m going wrong.
You (Cyrena) wrote, “you want to chalk-up all violence to religion…[snip].. you say…it’s all because of “religion” “

I did?  You see, this is what is meant by constructing straw men.  I never said those things, but it appears that these falsifications (straw men) are what you need in order to open the door for your rant.

Well putting that tedious straw man habit aside, your writing seems to be pulling its punches a bit more as your opinion seems to be drifting more and more clearly in the direction of Sam Harris, Wavelength, etc…. which is good.

I suggest again:  Ask those medical doctors… you know, the guys with plenty of cash… ask them why they exploded those cars with visions of civilian deaths. See if their explanation isn’t chock full of Allah this and Koran that.

They don’t need you to speak for them.  They aren’t children that need westerners to interpret their real meaning.  They are grown ups and they tell us why they act violently.

Wavelength:  Bravo!  That was an excellent bit of work in your last few posts. I wish I could keep bumping those posts back to the top!

BFskinnerPunk,

You keep directing all of these arguments to me, even though I’ve pretty much moved on to other threads, if only because you and others have gone so totally off the deep-end with the Islamophobia. You keep talking about straw men, and you’re seemingly determined to misinterpret what I’ve said.

So, for the record, (even though I have certainly stated it before, at the beginning of this thread, and throughout), here it is.

The question: does Religion contribute to the violence in the Middle East. I am not arguing that religion has no affect on violence in the Middle East, nor have I ever argued such a thing. I also agreed with Sam Harris on most of his points about the very negative effects of Religion in general. I am for all intents and purposes, a devout agnostic, moving into the real atheist category, as I watch these religious extremist groups develop right here in my own “homeland.”…the U.S.A. So, allow that to stand for the record, since I am in agreement, that there are various interpretations of every religion, that can, and in fact DO, contribute to violence, anytime a strict or literal interpretation of any “Holy Book” is used as a rational for ANYTHING. Are you with me so far? I agree that ANY kind of “religion” can have these negative effects.

The place where we depart drastically, is where you want to chalk-up all violence to religion, in all of the Middle East, and I’m telling you that you are leaving out all of the more proximate causes for the violence in the Middle East, when you say…it’s all because of “religion” because that simply is not true. By doing that, you destroy you own hypothesis, because you’ve left out (and it would appear to be intentionally) any mention of the basic reasons for the violence.

So, what are we really talking about here, and how much of the “Middle East” are we talking about? This thread, (as well as the debate) focused on the Islamic faith, and appeared to narrow down even more to the Arabs of the Occupied Territories of Israel/Palestine. That is where most of the hysteria has been directed in this thread, including some of Sam Harris’ comments. He specifically makes a distinction between Jewish and Muslim mothers’, claiming that Jewish mothers/parents are always horribly distraught when harm befalls THEIR children, but Muslim mothers, (at least the ones in the Palestinian territories) actually encourage their children to be “Martyrs” and this is fundamentally WRONG, because it is simply not true.

So, what I’m telling you is that while “religion” may provide some secondary and very “existential” reason behind some of the violence that has been perpetrated (by ALL parties) in the Middle East, (and particularly the Israel/Palestine conflict, since it is the longest conflict) it is NOT, the proximate cause of that violence. I’m saying that under the very same circumstances that have existed in these territories, under what can only be called a military occupation, the violence that we see THERE…in THAT part of the Middle East, is NOT about religion, as much as it is about a people resisting that occupation, which is what I argue would happen,—- ANYWAY, whether they were religious or not, and I have argued this before, which is why I’m pretty tired of you at this point.
So, because, we can look to other areas of the Middle East, and find that there has NOT been any more “violence” associated with that particular religion, than there is anywhere else in the world, we cannot single out the Israel/Palestine conflict, as being one of religious origin.

Meantime, moving on, the religion thing has grown ever more dangerous by the day, right here at home, and that TOO, indirectly connects to the violence we see in the Middle East.

Check out the links below

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/070507F.shtml

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062907J.shtml

AMAZON.COM SALES RANKINGS (July 7, 2007)

#10— God is Not Great (Christopher Hitchens)
#39— The God Delusion (Richard Dawkins)
#157—Letter to a Christian Nation (Sam Harris)
#323—The End of Faith (Sam Harris)
#522—God: The Failed Hypothesis (Victor Stenger)
———————————————————————————
#898—Hegemony or Survival (Noam Chomsky)
#1,193—American Fascists (Chris Hedges)
#1,832—Failed States (Noam Chomsky)
#6,057 – Interventions (Noam Chomsky)
#15,678 – Dying to Win (Robert Pape)
#37,577—Playing President (Robert Scheer)
#47,392—In Gods We Trust (Scott Atran)

***These results are not entirely explained by date of release.  Three of the books at the bottom of the list were released in 2007 – American Fascists, Interventions, and Failed States.  Playing President and Dying to Win were published in 2006.  In Gods We Trust and Hegemony or Survival were published in 2004.

Keyboard used to misspell the word “naïve” - $60

Noam Chomsky fan-club membership - $75

Compensation for time spent defending Islamo-thugs – $500

Quote from the movie Rudy that will completely piss Barry off - PRICELESS
____________________________________________________

“You’re 5 foot nothin’, 100 and nothin’, and you have barely a speck of athletic ability. And you hung in there with the best college football players in the land for 2 years. And you’re gonna walk outta here with a degree from the University of Notre Dame.”
–Rudy, 1993
____________________________________________________
There are some things money can’t buy, for everything else, there’s Mastercard.

PART TWO:  LEFT WING ATHEIST (CON’TD)

The second mistake is the infantilization of people.  From this perspective, Muslims are not held to the same intellectual and moral standards as Westerners.  We disregard what they flatly report to us.  They blow themselves up because they don’t know any better.  Sure, no one here in the West would blow themselves up when economically frustrated, but those people over there live in bad conditions and lack other options.  They just couldn’t help themselves in light of their circumstances and can’t be blamed.  (Here is my dissenting view—if you as a Westerner think suicide bombing is in some sense justified, you are either holding Muslims to child-like standards or you are suffering from Stockholm-Syndrome).

The necessity of framing everything in political and economic terms leads to another huge pile of errors:  mixing up cause and effect, confusing diagnosis and treatment, attributing secularism to quasi-religious groups, and as mentioned previously, using exceptions as the rule.  Bloggers such as Barry have fallen victim to yet another mistake—a willingness to oppose empirically justified positions merely because they are perceived as lending support to the Right.  Personal attacks are launched against credible witnesses who dare to criticize religion, or to change political parties like Ayaan Hirsi Ali.  Recognizing religion as a problem is seen as an excuse for not pursuing economic equality.  At the drop of a hat –“Let’s put the kibosh on this whole public criticism of religion.”  Public criticism is futile; people will never give up their religion.  Therefore religion is not the primary problem.

Many things in this world can be blamed on American foreign policy and economic despair.  But perhaps not everything can.  Sam Harris summed this up best in his article, Bombing Our Illusions:

“War and repression do not account for the influx of foreign fighters willing to sacrifice their lives merely to sow chaos. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is not George Washington with a hood. Sawing the heads off of civilian contractors, humanitarian workers, and journalists is not “resistance” to oppression. It is the work of men who left their hearts in the 7th century.”

Like global warming deniers, a sizable number on the Left will never locate the problem of Islam with religion itself.  They deny that religious extremism, whatever its humble beginnings, has broken free of its roots and is now a distinct, separable entity.  They are poised to make an egregious and inexcusable mistake.  It is every bit as glaring—and contemptible—as the one made by those who embraced communism in the last century.

PART TWO:  LEFT WING ATHEISTS

Right wing ideologues who deny global warming (Glenn Beck, Michael Crichton, and James Inhofe) dismiss sound evidence and fall over backward to not name the culprit of the problem.  Consequently, they are seen as crazy by mainstream culture and are becoming increasingly marginalized.  Many on the Left view the problem of radical Islam in a way that is every bit as ridiculous as the position that Right wing ideologues have taken on global warming.  We must take them to task for this error.

Something is desperately wrong when the thing that is the obvious offense –the veiling of women—is treated as an icon of religious identity and a criticism of it is treated as an insult.  This strange inversion of priorities applies to acts of horrendous violence as well.
Blowing up cars filled with nails for the chance to kill innocent pedestrians is framed as necessary opposition to Western power.  Honor killing of innocent women is casually dismissed as “not at all frequent” in the Muslim world.  All actions –no matter how awful or obviously motivated by religious principles—are rationalized as economic and political effects.  Instead of a balanced assessment, liberals build their case around exceptions to the rule—the single quote in the Koran that seems to argue against suicide bombing “Do not destroy yourselves”, the single non-Muslim group that carries out suicide attacks “Tamil Tigers”, the scarce examples of Jewish fanatics killing non-combatants “Baruch Goldberg”, and on and on…  As BFSkinnerPunk noted in an earlier post, the world really is turning upside down.  Why have so many liberals taken the wrong side of this debate?

For the Left wing, there is a long history of viewing the Third World as good, and developed countries as malevolent and oppressive.  This idea has led to some rather shocking intellectual mistakes.  The first mistake is cultural relativism, in which everything is OK so long as it is your culture.  If your culture includes stoning adulteresses to death, then who can argue with that?  After all, it is your culture. 

The worst extension of this classic mistake comes when the Left looks at radical militant movements that are intrinsically fascistic and oppressive, but use a rhetoric of claiming to speak for the world’s oppressed peoples.  The Left fell into the same mistake with Soviet communism, in which a fascist movement claiming to be a revolutionary libertarian movement was embraced.  In both cases, the desire to oppose the abuses that American power has committed in the world led people to believe that these other people – those who claim rhetorically to be against it—are allies.  The truth, however, is that Islamic radicalism (Wahhabism, Al Qaeda, etc.) is not interested in anything the Left believes in.  They are not interested in liberating women, social justice, democracy, liberal values, tolerance for minorities, or embracing diversity.  Instead, they are interested in creating a new religious, fascist rule over the entire planet (a new caliphate).

I have argued about the problem of radical Islam with Muslim moderates and Left wing atheists of various types throughout this forum.  Rather than criticize their tactics, or respond to their rebuttals, I want to focus on the big picture from a kind of aerial perspective.  Here is how I see your sides of the debate.

PART ONE:  MUSLIM MODERATES

For Muslim moderates, there are several major problems with your defense of Islam.  The most obvious is that you are not seeking credible sources of information.  Since your sources do not engage in a dispassionate examination of the evidence, you don’t either.  Any educated person not indoctrinated into your religion already will reject the propagandistic journalism and ideologically driven thought process it generates. 

One aspect of the problem is denial of contrary evidence.  This takes the form of outright denial or attempts to minimize contrary evidence.  Whatever its form, the intent is to deflect criticism of Muslims and shift blame for problems onto Westerners.  We are then led to believe, by Nahida and others, that Muslim problems are entirely explicable in terms of Western aggression and imperialism by the likes of the US, Britain, and Israel. Every shred of evidence that contradicts this ideological position is systematically denied or ignored.

For example, one of the greatest atrocities in the world at this moment is the genocide in Darfur.  Here we have black African Muslims being systematically murdered by Arab Muslims.  In Western nations across the globe, large campaigns have attempted to end the genocide by drawing international attention to it.  Why isn’t the West given any credit for these efforts?  Why isn’t this genocide a source of colossal demonstrations in the Muslim world?  Why is it that the Muslim world appears to have taken the side of the oppressors, the Arabs who are committing the genocide of other Muslims in Africa? Doesn’t this in fact demonstrate the opposite of what you urge us to believe, which is that Islam is always peaceful and loving in nature and that the West is morally bankrupt?

Similar historical examples abound.  It wasn’t Muslim countries that rescued Muslims in Kosovo.  It wasn’t Muslim countries that came to the rescue of Muslims in Bosnia.  Despite the direct intervention by Western democracies (and the absence of Muslim activity) Western countries are routinely described as being “anti-Muslim”.  The facts show a monumental intellectual confusion at work here.  Our best hope is to eschew propaganda and embrace a more balanced, evidence-based position.

Slouching toward a Palestinian Holocaust

Richard Falk, TFF Associate

{...it is especially painful for me, as an American Jew, to feel compelled to portray the ongoing and intensifying abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel through a reliance on such an inflammatory metaphor as ‘holocaust.’

Is it an irresponsible overstatement to associate the treatment of Palestinians with this criminalized Nazi record of collective atrocity? I think not. The recent developments in Gaza are especially disturbing because they express so vividly a deliberate intention on the part of Israel and its allies to subject an entire human community to life-endangering conditions of utmost cruelty. The suggestion that this pattern of conduct is a holocaust-in-the-making represents a rather desperate appeal to the governments of the world and to international public opinion to act urgently to prevent these current genocidal tendencies from culminating in a collective tragedy.

If ever the ethos of ‘a responsibility to protect,’ recently adopted by the UN Security Council as the basis of ‘humanitarian intervention’ is applicable, it would be to act now to start protecting the people of Gaza from further pain and suffering. But it would be unrealistic to expect the UN to do anything in the face of this crisis, given the pattern of US support for Israel and taking into account the extent to which European governments have lent their weight to recent illicit efforts to crush Hamas as a Palestinian political force.

But Gaza is morally far worse, although mass death has not yet resulted. It is far worse because the international community is watching the ugly spectacle unfold while some of its most influential members actively encourage and assist Israel in its approach to Gaza. Not only the United States, but also the European Union, are complicit,

Israel is currently stiffening the boycott on economic relations that has brought the people of Gaza to the brink of collective starvation. This set of policies, carried on for more than four decades, has imposed a sub-human existence on a people that have been repeatedly and systematically made the target of a variety of severe forms of collective punishment. The entire population of Gaza is treated as the ‘enemy’ of Israel, and little pretext is made in Tel Aviv of acknowledging the innocence of this long victimized civilian society.

To persist with such an approach under present circumstances is indeed genocidal, and risks destroying an entire Palestinian community that is an integral part of an ethnic whole. It is this prospect that makes appropriate the warning of a Palestinian holocaust in the making, and should remind the world of the famous post-Nazi pledge of ‘never again.’}

Read the whole article here:

http://www.transnational.org/Area_MiddleEast/2007/Falk_PalestineGenocide.html

Trevor,

Your points are all in line with the vast majority of posters in this thread with the exception of your being in agreement with Hedges.

While you did a fine job of praising Sam and disagreeing with Hedges tactics… that stuff is the easy part… but you didn’t actually explain why you agree with Hedges.

That’s the hard part!

#84628 by Trevor on 7/06 at 4:21 pm

Trevor, what an EXCELLENT analysis of the debate. You’re on target with every point. I especially appreciate your mention of the fact that these practices of extremism, (whether in the name of religion or not) cannot be accepted from any person or group, and that we cannot maintain double standards on this.

Thanks again.

Cyrena,

Your incredible addiction to the straw man technique makes things rather tedious.  Do you know what it means when one is using a “straw man”?  It means that you are arguing as if your opponent stands for something in particular and yet, the opponent has said no such thing.

You are depending on an opinion (which does not exist) in order for your opinion to “work”. 

I am fully aware that if you search hard enough, you can find other religions which seem to be provoking people to act horribly… but this only further confirms my point and that of logician, wavelength and others: 
Religion is a key ingredient in the kinds of violence that we are seeing in the middle east.

Sure, CNN hired middle eastern looking people to chant anti-american slogans in the streets of Palestine (or was that just a movie set?). 

I’m all for freedom of speech, so I don’t mind the anti-american marches.  The point was, these massive protests happen and with no fear of Israel.

[By the way, as I type this Ed Hussein is on TV discussing his new book “The Islamist”... perhaps he will help moderate/reformed Muslims come out of the closet and condemn the religious violence.  Ed, by the way, seems to agree that religion is playing the key role in the violence as well.]

Nahida,

It seems from your recent posts that your goal here is to convince anyone listening that the Jews should get out of Palestine and Israel should no longer exist. Is that it? Is that what you want?  Good luck with that.

Your claim is that only a small percentage of muslims are extremists. And yet you seem to want Israel wiped off of the map. Is that not an extremist point of view?
You don’t just want the Americans out. You want the Jews gone too.
Well so do the suicide bombing, Ala praising, wife killing terrorists you defend. What a piece of work you are.

Zionism happened.
Then the UN gave Israel to the Jews.
Then all of the Arab countries surrounding attacked Israel with the intent of wiping out all of the Jews. The Jews have been defending themselves ever since. Yes, I said defending themselves. If they were doing more than just defending themselves, this conflict would have been over long ago.

Israel isn’t going away Nahida.
Beyond that, what do you propose?

Re# 84452, 84454, 84456 by nahida:

Thank you, troll nahida.  Once again you verify my statements with the filth you continue to vomit upon this site. 

You are NOTHING but a filthy mouthpiece for the STUPIDITY of Islam, indeed of ALL religions by whining that past inexcusable deeds by other religidiots like yourself JUSTIFY the inexcusable deeds Muslims are now committing.

You are the slimiest of hypocrites for you cannot even admit your own hypocrisy.  You orgasmically slither around in your hate-filled justification for murder with great joy upon this site and then accuse others of your own disgusting mannerisms.

And you wonder why normal people find you so abhorrently disgusting.

The Iron Wall

{In 1923, Vladmir Jabotinsky – father of the Zionist right – wrote: “Zionist colonization… can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an IRON WALL, which the native population cannot breach.”

From that day on, these words became the official and unspoken policy of the Zionist movement and, later, the State of Israel. Colonies, often referred to as “settlements,” were used to solidify the Zionist foothold throughout historic Palestine.

Following the 1967 occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, more than 200 settlements and outposts have been built in these territories, in violation of international law. The Iron Wall exposes this phenomenon and follows the timeline, size, and population of the settlements, reveals how their construction has been a cornerstone of Israeli policy, and demonstrates how the Wall secures them as permanent and irreversible facts on the ground.

This documentary warns that a contiguous and viable Palestinian state is becoming no longer possible, and that the chances for a peaceful resolution of the conflict are slipping away.

The Iron Wall features interviews with prominent Israeli and Palestinian peace activists and political analysts, including Jeff Halper, Akiva Eldar, Hind Khoury, and others. Also included are eye-opening interviews with Israeli settlers and soldiers, and Palestinian farmers.} quoted from Sabbah’s blog

watch the film here:

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2007/02/15/the-iron-wall/

part-1

In my writing I only address genuine and sincere people. I open my heart to truth seekers who care about justice, who long for peace and want to see an end to violence. I call upon people with hearts and minds, who truly yearn to see a difference, to make a difference.

Those who push for more war and destruction, those who are in the hunt for a clash of civilizations, who are engaged in active support of war crimes, and who spread hate and racism, I have no interest in having a nonsense dialogue with. I wish them to ignore my writing as I do to theirs.

Violence is nothing but the outcome of many years of injustice, many years of constant humiliation, and many years of oppression.

People in USA must come to understand that there is so much anger in the Muslim world and elsewhere, anger because of the constant injustice, imperialism, humiliation, occupation, invasion, ruin, and aggression and because of the unconditional support of the USA to the pariah racist state of Israel.

America’s self indulgence by putting itself on higher moral grounds as the ethical model of the world and by proclaiming the right to be the police state of the globe; yet committing the most vile crimes against humanity and the unleashed frantic destruction of other nations is a major factor in this repugnance.

To propagate otherwise (putting the blame solely on people’s faith and religion) is nothing less than racism, fascism and a call for mass murder.
It is a drive towards justifying crimes against humanity, as by classifying people as inherently evil only because they chose to believe in a Creator and to have faith is nothing less than calling for the annihilating of entire nations only for their beliefs.

Tarnishing an entire group of people with accusation of wickedness is merely an attempt to make genocide looks acceptable and passes unchallenged.

Muslims are not intrinsically or inherently evil nor does Islam teaches violence, as many are led to believe in order for their government to justify their ongoing genocide and yet to prepare the grounds of the holocaust to come.

The truth is out there for all those who seek.

What we see now written and said about Muslims mirrors the climate of the thirties in Nazi Germany and what was said then against the Jews.

If we don’t categorically, courageously, and sincerely face the facts, we will find ourselves heading towards a new catastrophe, a new holocaust, dragging our world into unprecedented upheaval and devastation, and we would’ve learned nothing from the mistakes of the past.

part-2

American policy makers must face themselves and look into the mirror, if we are to save our world from this insanity and bloodshed.

They must take a good look in the mirror and see the monsters they’ve became, before pointing fingers at anyone else who are fed up with their international policies, invasions and aggression.

The makers of these abhorrent policies need to ask themselves what they are doing wrong to accumulate so much loathing from people all over the globe
http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2007/06/28/poll_finds_mistrust_of_bush_abroad/

{Poll finds mistrust of Bush abroad:

37 of 47 countries express doubts

Favorable views of America touched modern lows in Britain, where just 51 percent of those queried expressed a favorable view of this country, and Germany, where the figure was 30 percent.

Of those surveyed, those who said they have a favorable view of the United States fell to 9 percent in Turkey, 21 percent in Egypt and 15 percent in Pakistan, all key players in US anti-terrorism strategy.}

How many countries did they invade?
How many brutal and unelected dictatorships s did they support?
How many millions did they massacre around the world?

Remember Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now the threat to Iran and the unconditional support of the apartheid racist state of Israel to name but a few.

Every action has a reaction; this simple fact must be understood, people reap what they sow, and karma is always paid in full.

But hope is not all lost, as the very existence of just and peace loving people in America, people like Cyrena in this thread is evidence of that.

Hope is not all lost

Re#84387,#84391 by cyrena, #84432,#84433 by nahida:

Good morning, trolls.  I see you have no courage, integrity, nor ability to respond to reality nor to any statement that illuminates you for the plants you are.

To all others: as can be clearly seen, these two posters are plants, here to obfuscate and divert from the truth. 

Lies, damned lies, and statistics; puerile poems; snarky statements, and outright stupidity are the modes of these two.

Both these liars have been directly confronted and both have slimed around in their filthy delusions in order to avoid answering.

What they have done is steer the readers from the object of this thread: the Harris/Hedges debate. 

Jews killing Muslims, Muslims killing anyone within reach, Christians killing EVERYONE within reach.  Ultimately THAT is the point of this debate: Is religion a viable source of ANYTHING but hatred, intolerance, and death?

Harris says NO, Hedges say YES.  In the meantime, people are enthusiastically slaughtering anyone not of their particular faith all over the world.

And nahida and cyrena orgasmically delight in writing stupid sh*t to take the focus off this debate.

Let us ignore the filth of these two trolls and return to the discussion at hand:

Is there ANYTHING of ANY worth in ANY religion?

That would be a big, fat, resounding NO! 

Muddle-headed PC mumblings from Hedges notwithstanding.

Rising above

Soaked in humiliation
Standing in the corner
Of the -security check- cubical
All alone
No mum to hold my hand
Or calm down my fear
No dad to hide my shame
And wipe my tears away
No shoes, no socks, no clothes
Not even underwear
After being stripped
By her…

The stern face
Of this woman soldier
Was looking down at me
In fury and contempt

She started her interrogation:
Where are you going to?
Palestine, my little shaky voice replied
Where are you going to? louder and firmer
Palestine, swiftly this time
There is no Palestine, do you understand
No more Palestine
Where are you going?  shouting with rage
Palestine, assertively
Determined to deny her the pleasure
Of hearing the word
She wanted to hear

A refugee, visiting my stolen Palestine
For the first time
Since the occupation
A little girl of nine
Defiant, full of dignity, I leave
Holding in my heart
My very own victory

The Easiest Targets

For how long can a human being take this kind of humiliation?

Would any one like this to happen to their mother, wives or daughters?

Why would USA support such sadistic occupiers?

13-minute video: Five women – Palestinian, American, Muslim, Christian, and Jewish – tell stories of humiliation and harassment by Israeli border guards and airport security officials.

Israeli officials have been regularly strip-searching children for decades, some of them American citizens.

While organizations that focus on Israel-Palestine have long been aware that Israeli border officials regularly strip-search men and women, If Americans Knew appears to be the first organization that has specifically investigated the situation. In the course of its investigation on searches of women, If Americans Knew was astonished to learn that Israeli officials have also been strip-searching girls as young as seven and below.

According to interviews with women in the United States, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli border officials periodically force Christian and Muslim females of all ages to remove their clothing and submit to searches. In some cases the children are then “felt” by Israeli officials.

Sometimes mothers and children are strip-searched together, at other times little girls are taken from their parents and strip-searched alone. Women are required to remove sanitary napkins, sometimes with small daughters at their side. Sometimes women are strip searched in the presence of their young sons.

All report deep feelings of humiliation. Many describe weeping at the degradation they felt.

“I remember crying and pleading with my mother,” Gaza journalist Laila El-Haddad recalls of an experience when she was 12-years-old, hoping that her mother could convince the Israeli official to allow her to keep her undershirt on. But parents are unable to shield their children, El-Haddad and others report.

Jewish Holocaust Survivor Hedy Epstein,who was 79 at the time, describes being forced to bend over for an Israeli official to search her internally.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2015107982

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/childabuse.html

#84197 by wavelength on 7/05 at 7:52 am

Cyrena,

.....“Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else.  Sorry about that.  The comments regarding your tactics still apply.  There is so much contempt in everything you write—even your response here—that I think you are not likely to be taken seriously by most people.  And I may not be Dr. Phil, but I am a physician.”.....

No problem Wavelength. You did in fact confuse me with someone else I guess (maybe one of your patients”?) but your apology is accepted.

At the risk of repeating myself, may I say again that your suggestion about my “tactics” is inappropriate here, because this forum is NOT about “my tactics”. To employ “tactics” first requires a “goal”. It requires a “mission”. I have no “agenda” here, so “tactics” are moot. I have no declared “war” on anything other than ignorance.

Those who would take me or anyone else “seriously” would only benefit from that if it led them to check other sources for corroboration, and MANY other sources at that.

I’m concerned that you claim to be a physician, because I have physician parents, physician siblings, physician in-laws, and physician colleagues. None of them have time to post to these web sites, because they’re too busy healing real illnesses.

Now maybe you’re a psychiatrist physician, (which fits with the whole thing of you diagnosing me as aggressive and stubborn.) You were right about the “stubborn”, although I’m more inclined to consider myself an “independent thinker”, so I’m stubborn when it comes to rejecting the brainwashing. Agressive however, (while it’s not necessarily a bad thing) isn’t really my mode of operation either. Sometimes I wish I were more aggressive, since it certainly would have saved me multiple hardships in the past. But, I’m not, and I have no need to be now.

Well, not that your straw man merits a response, but ...Palestinians {and others) *have often* poured into the streets with vicious and aggressive calls to action against Americans/Israel with no response from Israel.  The streets look literally packed with folks gleefully chanting for death to Israel-America. So, are those rallies just put on by CNN actors?

Yes Punk, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Whatever “rallies” you’re talking about, these “rallies” that you have never seen in real time, but only on CNN, are propaganda that has been intentionally manipulated, totally taken out of context, and all for the benefit of creating a “war on terror” rationale.

That is exactly what I’m saying. Those photos and alleged “news clips” that you see, (and I don’t, because I avoid main stream media when at all possible) are phoney. Just like the whole “mission accomplished” thing that we were all subjected to, back 4 years ago. That was staged at the Naval Base in San Diego. NOT IRAQ.

The “mass suicide bombings” that I referred to should be corrected. What I should have made very clear, was that the main stream media has continued to portray the Palestinians as people who actually ENCOURGE their children to indulge in these suicide attacks, and that too, is malicious slander, and a deliberate attempt to paint everything “Muslim” or Islam as some evil ideology that sweeps the Middle East, perpetuating honor killings, as if that’s just a standard part of the Islamic faith.

And, it’s all false. I am old enough to know, and I draw from an extensive well of “hands-on” experience, as well as education and research, to know that this is all a major facade to create the very sort of hate that I read here from the likes of so many ignorant people, who have no real world experience in this, and are dependant only on CNN and faux fox news, for their information.

This horrific “Islamophobia” has been a result of intentional propaganda, because 6 years ago, neither you or the majority of others posting to this site, never even knew what Islam was, never knew the difference between a Sunni or a Shia, and couldn’t find Palestine on the map.

There was NOT this public psyco-mania about Arabs or Muslims that we see now, and that is my point.

Now, go study the Mormoms or something. I bet you’ll find some serious extremes in the splinter sects of it, that would make the perceived actions of the Islamists look like child’s play. Check on Rev. Moon, see what you think about his “religious organization”, which is funded by the neo-cons and religious freaks here in the U.S.

And, avoid engaging in arguments (with me at least) until you have.

Relax, guys, as should be apparent by now, nahida and cyrena, the jack-off twins, are nothing more than gross little trolls with nothing better to do than screw around on a site with riduculous human-hating poetry, outright lies, and childishly stupid arguments.

They are placed here by their Imam or Imams, more human-hating scum.  The best thing to do is to not attempt to engage them in any argument as if they are intellectually capable of it or as if they possess any integrity at all, for they don’t, on either count.

The best thing to do with them, as with ALL religidiots, is to just keep confronting them to their stupid faces about their beliefs.  So here goes:

Nahida!  Cyrena!  If YOU are SERIOUS about ANYTHING you have SHAT on this site, then get your butts to IRAQ and STOP THE BABY KILLING MUSLIMS!

Go to Iraq, you oh-so-smug head-the-sh*t muslim apologists, and stop the believers who are fulfilling the commandments of your schizophrenic prophet.

Go to Iraq and BACK THE YACK you have been sh*tting on this site!  Because if you don’t, you simply PROVE my point: you are slimy little trolls doing only what your Imams order you to do.

Nahida!  Cyrena!  And EVERY OTHER religidiot!  Blowing up babies for YOUR GOD is NOT the way to win converts.  It is, however, the best evidence I have ever used that ALL religion is sh*t that must be eradicated from the planet before mankind can evolve.

For that, I do thank you clueless sh*theads.

Cyrena writes:
“If you really want to know why “moderate” Muslims aren’t pouring into the streets in protest, ...they aren’t as into this whole idea of mass suicide that you like to attribute to them.”

BF responds:
Another straw man!  I never said moderates are “in” to the idea of mass suicide… no one has.

Cyrena wrote: “So in short, they don’t pour into the streets in protest, because there is a guaranteed reaction from Israel, to any such pouring into the streets. Any such activity will be immediately halted by tanks and bombs from Israel”

BF responds:
I asked why moderates don’t pour into the streets to stop the suicide bombings, stop the honor killings, etc. and you are suggesting that Israel will halt it with tanks and bombs?

Well, not that your straw man merits a response, but ...Palestinians {and others) *have often* poured into the streets with vicious and aggressive calls to action against Americans/Israel with no response from Israel.  The streets look literally packed with folks gleefully chanting for death to Israel-America. So, are those rallies just put on by CNN actors?

You suggested, also, that there aren’t enough Palestinians to form a rally because they are all dead or in Israeli jails. hilarious!  I think you have completely lost any credibility at this point.

But, again, your post seemed to be directed at questions I never asked (straw man):
My question was this -
Why aren’t *true* moderates pouring into the streets to call to an end to the muslim on muslim violence, and the honor killing sorts of violence???  Where is the mass outrage that the extremists are misrepresenting Islam?  Why aren’t the extemists being thrown out/ostracized?

Cyrena wrote: “Another reason is that they can look to history…. Saddam slaughtered them all, while our troops stood by and picked their noses, and turned their eyes away.”

BF responds:
Ok… so this would have been a good time for the U.S. to start fighting?  So having the U.S. dropping bombs, shooting, and unavoidably killing innocent bystanders would have been cool with you in this circumstance?  How convenient that you get to pick your pet military battles to suit your argument!

Why do I get the feeling that you are 20 yrs old, and get your perspective from hippy drum circles?  (I’m an ex-groovey hippy type…so I can smell it a mile away).

The video topical question:  Is religion producing the violence?  Ask the doctor who packed his Mercedes with gas and nails… see if you don’t detect a bit of good old fashioned religion in his response!
(and when I say “old fashioned”, I mean *OLD* fashioned!)

Cyrena,

You really are ignorant about the middle east if you think no one but Saddam wants to get the Kurds. Read a book.
Oh yeah and my last post should have been directed to you.

Did you really suggest that Bush 1 should have invaded Iraq?
lol

To stop Saddam from slaughtering the Shia?
slaughtering the Shia with what?
Weapons of mass destruction?
He never had any right?
He was no danger right?

This was your most illuminating statement so far.
lmao.

Cyrena,

Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else.  Sorry about that.  The comments regarding your tactics still apply.  There is so much contempt in everything you write—even your response here—that I think you are not likely to be taken seriously by most people.  And I may not be Dr. Phil, but I am a physician.

cyrena said:

“I’m not worried about the Kurds being faced with another event of the past. In case you weren’t aware, Saddam is dead, and I don’t see anybody else being anxious to wipe out the Kurds. I think they will do just fine.”

from reuters:

>ANKARA, June 29 (Reuters) - Turkey has prepared detailed plans for a cross-border operation into Iraq against Kurdish rebels and will act if U.S. or Iraqi forces fail to tackle them, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul was quoted as saying on Friday.<

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L2962805.htm

#84148 by wavelength on 7/05 at 1:53 am

•  Cyrena and Nahida,
You are aggressive and stubborn.  You show reflexive contempt for anyone not immediately sympathetic to your views.  You appear to be unwilling to make even the most basic concessions to begin an honest exchange of ideas
Wavelength,

This is Cyrena responding, since Nahida may or may not to respond on her own. 

The opening paragraph to your post is similar to other posts. You like to play Dr. Phil, or Dr. Freud, and with all due respect, this isn’t a psychoanalyst corner.

Be advised, I do not “know” Nahida, aside from her posts. I presume that she is a Muslim, but the context of her excellent writing suggests more that she is victim of an on-going genocide. So, that’s just for you to know, before you start addressing messages to us collectively. In other words, I’m not sitting here “collaborating” with anyone from this blog site, nor am I the least bit interested in “swaying” anybody to my own particular argument, because that isn’t the purpose of this forum. My sense is that the purpose is to share information, and perspectives, and it’s entirely up to the readers, to take from it whatever they may, just as I do. Use it if you need it, and ignore what you don’t.

I’m also not a Muslim. I’m actually a “global citizen” based in California, and my heritage is American, as is the heritage of the 12 generations of my ancestors. That means that I take great umbrage with the following statement:

•  In the process, you are fulfilling some of the worst stereotypes that people in the West have of Muslims.  In fact, any individual accidentally navigating to this page might think he has stumbled upon some sort of Muslim minstrel show. I mean, this really is sad.

There is no way in hell, that I am “fulfilling” or otherwise perpetuating the ignorance that I hear on this thread from the likes of those who want to portray Muslims as those who “stone” women, or participate in public hangings, or run around like maniacs trying to destroy the world. THOSE are the stereotypes that –as a global citizen- I am committed to uncovering for exactly what they are, which is nasty propaganda. And, if an individual “accidentally navigates” to this page, they can read what ALL of the posters have to say, (and hopefully what truthdig has provided in the way of information) and they can either appreciate it for the information that it is, or they can navigate “away” and watch cartoons, or they can read just your stuff. Fortunately, we haven’t become a totally fascist state yet, so all people still have it within their own choice to read or not read, whatever is available.

As for the Kurds….are you aware that they too, are MUSLIMS? Have you ever seen any of these “stereotypes” attached to them? Are you also aware that the Kurds have always maintained a quasi-sovereign entity there in the northern regions of Iraq? Are you aware that they are the only group of Iraqis who have so far managed to cut their own separate deal for the oil contracts?

I’m not worried about the Kurds being faced with another event of the past. In case you weren’t aware, Saddam is dead, and I don’t see anybody else being anxious to wipe out the Kurds. I think they will do just fine.

There IS a major concern on my part, (as well as many others) that Cheney is determined to strike Iran. THAT would be the worst mistake in the world, and needless-to-say, the Kurds would suffer as well, because they too, have cultural and traditional ties with Iran.

That should probably be your major concern. And no we won’t debate it, because I would prefer that you research this information on your own.

Nahida,

Did I see you insinuate that for Bush 1 to not invade Iraq was a bad thing that the US did to the muslims?????????
And one of the reasons why they hate us?
Because we didn’t invade?

Would you make up your mind wether you want us in there or not?

Cyrena and Nahida,

You are aggressive and stubborn.  You show reflexive contempt for anyone not immediately sympathetic to your views.  You appear to be unwilling to make even the most basic concessions to begin an honest exchange of ideas.

In the process, you are fulfilling some of the worst stereotypes that people in the West have of Muslims.  In fact, any individual accidentally navigating to this page might think he has stumbled upon some sort of Muslim minstrel show. I mean, this really is sad.

Again, I’d love to hear arguments from you two.  Cyrena made an excellent point about the US abandonment of the Shia following the first Gulf War.  I completely agree with your assessment – Bush 41 acted in a despicable and shameful manner.  I hope we do not make a similar mistake by abandoning the Kurds this time around.

You need to pay attention to your audience.  Unfortunately, the approach you’ve chosen is not likely to be taken seriously by anyone who is not already convinced by your arguments.  Dig deep into your conceptual toolkit and try to come up with a new approach.  I am serious about this.  Please try to string together some arguments without the hatred and contempt.  If you can’t do this, ask yourself why not.  Realize that the constant scapegoating and links to propaganda websites are not compelling to anyone outside your religion.  Rather than persuade the reader, they reinforce the strong sense that you have been brainwashed and are not rational actors.

Criminals in disguise

Smartly dressed, with suites and ties
Strait faces and yellow smiles
Piercing looks
And cold…cold…cold… dull eyes

Swollen with arrogance
In their press releases
They express their pride
Of their brave soldiers
They praise their “good” work
Of ethnic cleansing and mass murder
Their smart bombs
Never miss a target
Its destruction is so precise

Killing wearing a suite
Is quite all right
Desirable and justified
Further more
It’s civilized

Am I going crazy?
Or is it the world
Just going mad?
Please just tell me… why…
I can’t understand

Iraqi Lullaby

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7368.htm

Iraq: The Hidden Story shows the footage used by TV news broadcasts, and compares it with the devastatingly powerful uncensored footage of the aftermath of the carnage that is becoming a part of the fabric of life in Iraq.

Images of Iraq dominate our TV news bulletins every night but in this film, Channel 4 news presenter Jon Snow, questions whether these reports are sugar-coating the bloody reality of war under the US-led occupation

- Warning -

This video contains images that should only be viewed by a mature audience

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13420.htm

Just collateral damage: Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered In America’s War on Iraq -  At Least 665,000 + +

BFskinnerPunk

BFskinnerPunk

would venture to bet that the largest numbers of deaths today come at the hands of Muslims perpetrated upon other Muslims.  Why aren’t the moderate Muslims pouring into the streets in protest?  Oh yea, I forgot… more deaths.  right?

**********************
PF-Flyer-Punk

Free risk assessment here….., I would advise that you NOT make this bet. You would lose, and it doesn’t sound like you can really afford to take such losses.

When you make these “extreme bets” based on ZIP, NADA, NO empirical evidence, you can only lose. If you really want to know why “moderate” Muslims aren’t pouring into the streets in protest, (and you don’t know that they aren’t) there is a very pragmatic reason for it….they aren’t as into this whole idea of mass suicide that you like to attribute to them. So in short, they don’t pour into the streets in protest, because there is a guaranteed reaction from Israel, to any such pouring into the streets. Any such activity will be immediately halted by tanks and bombs from Israel, resulting in yet more massacres. That would be the reason why you don’t see them pouring into the streets of Gaza or the West Bank, or any of the other areas that Israel can blast away from the air or seas. They don’t pour into the streets, because the IDF tanks would run them right over, because that’s what we’ve been watching for decades.

Another reason is that they are all locked up…tens of thousands of them are locked up in prisons in Israel, in Gaza, and in the West Bank…just for starters. Yes, they are men, women and children;. another reason why they can’t just pour into the streets, and the only reason why Hamas and Hezbollah ever formed to begin with.

Another reason is that they can look to history. They can look to the first Gulf War of the 1990’s, when bush the father told the masses of Shia that had been oppressed by Saddam to “rise up in revolt” against him. When they did, Saddam slaughtered them all, while our troops stood by and picked their noses, and turned their eyes away.

So yeah, that “more deaths” thing would have something to do with it.

Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens have got it exactly right. Its fortunate that at this moment in time atheism (I hate that word) has found voice in these men. Most troubling is Harris’ allusion to the possibility of genocide as an ultimate solution. It would be far better to convince the Moslems and Christians alike to avoid indoctrinating their children with the foolishness of religion.

It is sad that our own president had to embrace the religious right to get elected. Alas, that may be the only way a republican can get elected.

Re: #83937 by Timmy on 7/04 at 9:44 am

“No one denies that the decision to create Israel in Palestine was the biggest blunder in world political history and the starting point for this seemingly never ending conflict.”

I agree in general Tim. There was this descendents of Isaac disowning their cousins the Ishmaelites in the Old Testament. I’m thinking the starting point was when the Old Testament Jews decided to treat the Arabian tribes, their blood relations, like “red-headed step children”. This was not a happy coupling long before 1948.

No offense intended to red heads, step children or red-headed step children.

Nahida,

It’s nice that you notice that non-Islamists can and do engage in self doubt and self questioning.  We do it all the time. 

But in the same breath, you claim that we are arrogant…many times over.  I rarely see Muslims question the muslim-on-muslim violence or muslim-on-civilian violence we see daily on the news…to say nothing of the random missiles lobbed into Israel.  At the very least, I’d think you would ostracize your brothers for hiding among women and children after lobbing those missiles.

Just as all of your posts indicate…it simply goes un-noticed and unmentioned.  It just doesn’t “fit” your magical world view of angels, satans, infidels, and Allah.

I would venture to bet that the largest numbers of deaths today come at the hands of Muslims perpetrated upon other Muslims.  Why aren’t the moderate Muslims pouring into the streets in protest?  Oh yea, I forgot… more deaths.  right?

Interestingly, I see no posts on this forum that explain how these graduate students and doctors can explode their luxury cars in civilian areas as a result of oppression.

The secular west makes sport of self doubt, self questioning, and self accusation.  Even further, we allow and even encourage this practice.  It’s a badge of honor in the west.  Further, we don’t harm those who question our views. 
arrogant, eh?

Gilad Atzmon, an Istaeli Jew says:

{I find myself wondering, how dare the media ask ‘why do they hate us?’ Don’t they know the answer? Don’t we know the answer? Weren’t we the ones who demolished Iraq? Wasn’t it our PM, Tony Blair, who gave a green light to the Israelis to flatten Lebanon? Wasn’t it Tony Blair’s government who dismissed the democratically elected Hamas in Palestine? Wasn’t it Blair who allowed the Israelis to starve Gaza?

For those who still fail to realise, to kill is rather simple, to turn towns into piles of rubble isn’t that complicated either. Yet, to raise a child may take a few years, to build a city takes hundreds of years and to establish harmony between human beings takes thousand of years. We should stop lying to others and to ourselves. We know perfectly well why they hate us, they have some good reasons, as things stand momentarily, we are the ones who are killing them en mass. It is us who demolish their towns and kill their kids.

Thus, rather than raising the pathetic question, ‘why do they hate us?’ we’d better evade our self-righteous mode, and ask ourselves, ‘why do we hate them so much?’ or even, ‘why do we hate so much?’ in general.}

Read the whole article here:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17963.htm

It is truly bizzare to watch these struggling old-school liberals flex their “diversity” muscle as they attempt to accommodate Islam as “just another fascinating bit of culture”. 

As I have mentioned before, insulting the “religious extremism” of Jerry Falwell while apologizing for those who approve of Islamic-virgin-stonings is a fascinating intellectual trick that, if it wasn’t so dangerous, would be downright entertaining!

So how many upper middle class graduate students need to fill their Mercedes with gas…. and shouting “Allah”.... before we start noticing that religion just *might* have little something to do with it! eh?

Or is it still considered unseemly to suggest such a thing.

I want nothing to do with even the most moderate Christian… and for some reason, those typical lefty folks seem to understand my reasons with utter clarity.  They seem to have a problem, though, with noticing the violent features that are an inherent part of Islam. <-(the Abrahamic religion that has yet to undergo a reformation)

I wonder, do the extremists giggle privately as westerners make sociological excuses for their religious madness?

This is awesome. Just awesome.
These are the noises. The beautiful noises.
The noises of the taboo being lifted.
The angry grumblings of Nahida.
The ridiculous attempt by Barry Seidman to deny that the recent UK terror plot is case in point refutation of any socioeconomic excuses for suicide bombings. Rich kids fooled into believing that Ala would reward them for killing innocents. I don’t know if Barry will be back to read this, I think he had to go stick his head back up Noam Chomsky’s ass, but how telling of the blindness of the Chomsky lefty’s that he would try to challenge this obvious evidence that RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING.

No one denies that the decision to create Israel in Palestine was the biggest blunder in world political history and the starting point for this seemingly never ending conflict. Surely it must have been a decision made by the imperialist UN defying United States of America. Right?

Nope. It was the UN. The same UN that the Chomsky’s of the world think we should all bow down and listen to now. The UN is always right, right? We should always do what the UN says right? Syria should have a seat on the UN security council right? The US should never do anything not approved by the UN security council right?

Have you read Sam Harris Barry? I’ve read Chomsky. I’ll bet you haven’t read Harris.

Re#83525 by nahida on 7/03 at 10:36 am:

Thank you, nahida.

By quoting and endorsing this porn by Layla Anwar you have proven EVERY WORD I have said on this post about you to be 100% correct. 

You, nahida, are a human hating troll in this post.  You advocate spitting on the laws that keep the filthy perverts of YOUR OWN RELIGION from eviscerating you for daring to open your female mouth.

You, nahida, and EVERY OTHER PERSON like you, are what is wrong with humanity: the truly self-loathing so immersed in the scum of your self-hate you wish to destroy ANYTHING good in this world. 

You do so firstly with the lie of religion, for ALL religions are NOTHING but lies.

You do so secondly by claiming innocence in the face of reality, for YOU have continually LIED that no MUSLIM would do what MUSLIM killers are doing all over the world.

You do so thirdly by denying not simply your OWN humanity but ALL humanity, for you state that ALL must bow before YOUR concept of the sh*t you call your religion.

You will deny these FACTS, if you even acknowledge them, as you have EVERY POST THAT HAS PROVEN YOU TO BE 100% WRONG.

But you slipped up and accidently stated how you really HATE all that is free by endorsing this pornography by another human-hater like yourself.

Take a bow, you human-hater.  Bow to your perverted masters, the men of your perverted ideology, the ultimate perversion of all thought and ideology: the muslim faith.

You have invalidated EVERY argument you have shat upon this post.  Fine job, human-hater.

Thank you, nahida.

Barry,

You’ll need to lay down individual points by those fellows in order to further your argument.  Chomski has already been put in his place (embarrassed) in his original field, language, when he attempted to lay down the ultimate critique of Skinner’s book.

Cyrena,
Watching cartoons.  Well, I will “admit” to watching cartoons, but what is your point? 

The Martyr Mouse Show is an Islamic children show which tells them of the glories of Martyrdom…and it’s clearly designed for VERY young kids.  This is just what has been deemed acceptable for their TV.  God only knows what happens in private religious lessons with these children.

This is in keeping with the point about the influence of religion on the (violence) seen in the mideast.

I know this is probably a rhetorical question, that I shouldn’t be surprised at, but…WHY do you watch cartoons? Mickey Mouse cartoons? I can’t believe your parents let you watch cartoons!! My dad would never allow the little animated figures on our TV. He’d always pass through the room, and if he saw we were watching cartoons, he would say….“Put some PEOPLE on that TV.”

But, you watch a Hamas Mickey Mouse character. Now THAT is proof in the pudding.

Has anyone watched the Hamas videos on YouTube?  The children’s shows with Martyr Mouse?

There are a lot of them and they are tedious, but here’s a link to one in which the friendly Muslim mouse is killed by an Israeli.  I just saw this on the news. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrieBhaGgHM

You don’t think their are religious undertones do you?

What difference does it make? Do you think WE wanna see it?

Exposing kids to this teaching is abuse.

Correction:

In my most recent post “explicative” should read “expletive”  as in “*!**!!!”.

EXPOSING CRIMES IS CRIMINAL IN ISRAEL

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m34190&hd;=&size=1&l=e

MEMRI putting words in the mouths of babes

http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2007/05/brian-whitaker-arabic-under-fire-memri.html

Despicable
Wicked
And shameful
When all you can come with is lies
even in translation

Has anyone watched the Hamas videos on YouTube?  The children’s shows with Martyr Mouse?

There are a lot of them and they are tedious, but here’s a link to one in which the friendly Muslim mouse is killed by an Israeli.  I just saw this on the news. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrieBhaGgHM

You don’t think their are religious undertones do you?

Exposing kids to this teaching is abuse.

I suspect that many of the anti-American, anti-UK types that makes these posts, and those that post all sorts of critiques of America/UK actually live in those very nations.

amazing.

Oh well, you can be sure that the UK is going to give those terrorist top notch medical care and these Islamic extremists won’t have to fear having their heads or limbs removed.

To think of our nations as suppressive and yet enjoy the freedoms of speech and rather soft consequences for harsh crimes… it’s almost like someone is playing a joke on us!

Is this candid camera!  Come on out Alan Funt!  This is a practical joke.  right?

Gentlemen:
While I enjoy reading your threads I would like to humbly suggest that we minimze the expletives that are arising among some of you.  Can we not have open, honest dialogue without resorting to such demeanor?  This is one of the issues I criticize in regards to Sam Harris.  He is often the brunt of others’ hosility and anger.  Not only is it unjustified to lash out at those we are disagreeing with, but it only serves to validate their point and diminish one’s own.

If we truly live in a “civilized” nation, restraint is one of our virtues.  We need not dance around issues, ignore the obvious or cover-up taboo to make our case.  But we also ought not resort to such emotional outbursts in an attempt to trump our opponent’s point of view.

And finally, let’s not quibble over misspelled words.  This format offers no spellcheck capacity and none of us, whether we want to admit it or not, is without error.

Gentlemen:
While I enjoy reading your threads I would like to humbly suggest that we minimze the explicatives that are arising among some of you.  Can we not have open, honest dialogue without resorting to such demeanor?  This is one of the issues I criticize in regards to Sam Harris.  He is often the brunt of others’ hosility and anger.  Not only is it unjustified to lash out at those we are disagreeing with, but it only serves to validate their point and diminish one’s own.

If we truly live in a “civilized” nation, restraint is one of our virtues.  We need not dance around issues, ignore the obvious or cover-up taboo to make our case.  But we also ought not resort to such emotional outbursts in an attempt to trump our opponent’s point of view.

And finally, let’s not quibble over misspelled words.  This format offers no spellcheck capacity and none of us, whether we want to admit it or not, is without error.

part 2 of 2
ender:

My point here is as follows:

I found nothing “cute” about Ahoo’s struggle and possible condemnation,  only another bone-chilling example of how Muslim women live under the shadow of the moon in their own home countries.  Please explain to me how it is feasible that Iran   will become an authentic democratic country?

I do agree with your “vicious” statement about Saddam.  We did have Saddam effectively contained by the UN Inspectors.  Our own and the world’s watchful eyes were upon him.  No one can argue he was not a monster and the world is better off without him: the world would be better off with most of the world’s dictators.  But we must all be willing to admit, with hindsight, that our current Administration has its own sense of religious ideology—-its own breed of “whacko fundamentalists”  waging its self-imposed Divine right to expand “liberty” and “freedom” across the globe.  It is certain Bush’s tactics are less heinous and despotic (I would never suggest otherwise)—our military is not beheading US citizens or killing them with poisonous gases in our own streets—-we are a democracy after all—but nothing   has been able to stop his ugly death machine in Iraq because the American public and Congress to this day are too complicit in burying their heads under the sand, turning a blind eye and deaf ear to all the propaganda the Administration has spewed forth. 

Sadly, the world’s ills are reflected in this way.

part one

Ender:

This is in response to your June 29 post to me regarding Iran.

Your thoughts are interesting and I agree with much of what you have said.  You may be correct about Iran,  but I will differ with you to a certain degree.  There is always possibility and hope,  when the correct permutations are played out, that a government can achieve a similar equation to the one we see in China today;  and perhaps,  a country such as Iran, if given a decent chance, can and will proceed down the road to modernity with a potential to evolve into a more receptive government instead of relying on “whacko fundamentalists” to set the country’s tone and policy.

However, we are speaking, as you suggested,  of a country that is deemed by many to be a “democracy.”  Yet, the word is used too loosely today in common discourse—-our own president is guilty of this.  Webster’s dictionary defines democracy as “government by the people”, “majority rule”, “the acceptance and practice of the principle of equality”, “opportunity”….”the common people.”  Can we honestly describe Iran as a democracy that would embrace the notions of “equality”  or “justice” or “acceptance” or “government by the people” when it has an oppressive clerical theocracy that,  as you so aptly noted,  cannot be voted out of power?

In our dealings with China we have the liberty to call a spade a spade with open discussion about their status as a Communist country; and we can rightfully acknowledge they hide behind a veil of human rights violations and other rouge treatments endemic of those who abuse power.  We can even look them in the eye, if we choose,  and remind them of such matters by turning the screws a little tighter and insist they repent and abandon these egregious acts.  But ought we be complicit in furthering an Islamic country’s belief , whose religion is the antithesis of democracy,  that they can hide behind such a veil by maintaining they are a “democracy”? 

I have before me a commentary written in USA TODAY dated June 29, 2007 (page 15a).  It is entitled “Islamic Bicycle Can’t Slow Iranian Women.” It’s a cutsy expose of how one Iranian woman defied her country’s laws condemning the use of woman on bicycles.  Ahoo, an Iranian female bicyclist is using a new bicycle product with a “cabin to conceal parts of the female cyclist’s body” since “Iran forbids women from riding bicycles” because of the belief that such a vehicle is sexually stimulating.  [I am not fabricating this].  It is a story of a maverick who “speeds ahead [on her bike]”  and “her husband threatens to divorce her [because she is riding a bike, mind you].”  It continues, “then her father, brothers and village elders gallop beside her on horseback and command her to get off.”  She doesn’t and we are not told what actually happens to this woman—-perhaps a private stoning behind the wood shed?—but the author claims that the “bicycle ban, like the Islamic bicycle, is a desparate, but futile attempt to control them [women].  How does one respond to this gibberish?  And what evidence does the author have that attempts to control Muslim women are futile?  I would suggest otherwise as many of my previous threads have clearly outlined (and Sam Harris argues as well.)

end of part one

So what would cause the instability?

Does Germany fear that the U.S. is going to plant bombs in their civilian places? 

Does the UK fear that we are going to load a Mercedes with gas and nails and situate them near people enjoying the night life?

I suppose that the greatest threat to stability was the American actions in the middle east.  We have stepped into a hornets nest of religious fury (that was going on well before the Iraq invasion) and have stirred it up.  Many people would choose to ignore the problems in the middle east. 

So while the U.S. is attempting to rebuild (see also Nazi Germany & Japan), the extreme followers of Allah will have none of it.  Hence:  instability

Why would these doctors have performed such an odd act of violence? 
Did they think it would weaken the UK?  (answer: no

Did they feel that it would make things better for fellow Muslims?  (answer: no)

Did they think it would kill civilians(infidels)?  (answer: yes)

Did they believe that their actions would please Allah and result in special heavenly privileges?
(answer:  do ya think???)

Do you think that religion played a critical role in the violent decisions of these doctors?

It wasn’t med school that influenced these guys.  It wasn’t their uppermiddle class lifestyle in charming English townhomes, or their nice cars. Nope, it was their early exposure to a specific view of the world.

Although it is certainly hip to apologize for those who literally interpret the Koran, we should probably take heed to Sam Harris and Hitchens.  I understand that their remarks seem arrogant, but when violence is the subject matter, we need their sort of candor.

Barry,

I love being chastised as naïve by someone who doesn’t know how to spell the word (“niave”).

Classic!

You are an endearing person though Barry.  You’ve got heart.  Couldn’t put together a cogent argument to save your life, but you’ve got heart. 

You remind me of the main character in that movie “Rudy”.  Rudy loved football, but couldn’t play for shit.  Eventually he tried really hard and was able to suit up for the varsity squad.  He even got to go in for a single play in the championship game.  Brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it.

Don’t you understand the socio-polito-economic oppression suffered by the Bombers in the UK?  You pretend to not know the trouble these doctors have lived through?  Let me tell ya why these men target civilians.

one example:
Living in the UK, these doctors are unable to purchase an Iphone while arrogant Americans already have them!  It was bad enough that their Xbox360 was delayed, and now this!? 

C’mon, this has nothing to do with Islam. 

Folks, listen to Hedges on this matter.

Third of Europe see US as threat to stability: poll

07-02-2007
http://www.anatoliantimes.com/hbr2.asp?id=&s=int&a=070702011231.w7iydhvv

More Europeans see the United States as a threat to global stability than Iran and North Korea combined, according to a poll published Monday.

The Harris Interactive survey for the Financial Times showed that 32 percent of more than 5,000 respondents in five European countries—Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Spain—regarded the United States as the biggest threat to stability.

China was next on the list, thought of as the greatest threat by 19 percent of European respondents, followed by Iran at 17 percent, Iraq at 11 percent, North Korea at nine percent, and Russia at five percent.

The FT said the poll findings were consistently reflected in 11 monthly polls between July 2006 and last month in which the percentage of respondents who regarded the United States as a threat ranged between 28 percent and 38 percent.

By contrast, a quarter of American respondents regarded North Korea as the biggest threat, followed by Iran as 23 percent, China at 20 percent, and the United States itself at 11 percent.

More than 1,000 people were surveyed online in each of the six countries every month between July 2006 and last month by Harris Interactive for the poll.

“Free” & Ruined Lives.

By: Layla Anwar

An iraqi woman gives thanks to america for giving her “FREEDOM”:

I want to burn Plato’s Republic and spit on your Constitution, on your Founding Fathers, on your Laws…

Free limbs, detached, solitary limbs, scattered to the four cardinal points and a bleeding heart in the middle, like a compass.
An arm to the West, a leg to the East, a head down South and a torso up North…And that damned bleeding heart in the Center.

Free, so free…
Free, free in Prisons. Free, so free in Detention centers…
Detention centers in the Mnistry of Interior, Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Justice!

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17952.htm

Meanwhile, in another truthdig thread, another heated debate continues regarding Chris Hedges artictle regarding a call for our own Independence from Israel.  And he’s right on this one.  I don’t believe Islamic terrorism would end if Israel was moved to Montana, but Israel is the father of modern terrorism, and about 1,000,000 humans did loose ancestral lands, without payment of recourse, so the nation of Israel could exist.  And Israel was not happy with the UN designated borders, and has been determined to stretch those boundaries since its inception.  A majority of Israelis favor a Palestinian state and a land for peace swap, but the right wing xtian lobby and Jewish media power have stiffled that same debate in this country, that is common in Israel.

I don’t think rational humans should expect any of the Abrahamic religions to act except in their own self interest, and all have their fundamentalist nutbags that wield an inordinate amount of control.  A parlimentary minority with strong military back grounds are able to block Israeli peace deals with Palestine because of their ties to our own fundamentalist power group like the ones that put our current commander and cheat into office.

I wonder why Hedges can make the connection and condemn Isreali Zionism but can’t seem to see that unchecked Islam wants to claim the entire world as its divine right?

Recently released details of the UK terror plot provide a near perfect refutation of the Chris Hedges argument.  Not only do the details shore up the Sam Harris side of the debate, they are exactly as predicted by his interpretation of current affairs.

Who were these guys who drove a flaming SUV into the entrance of the Glasgow airport?  Who packed two cars full of gas canisters and nails with the intention of blowing up innocent passersby?  Clearly such depravity is linked to malfunctioning people who were mentally ill or living out of dumpsters?  Perhaps they were abusing animals or molesting children but then graduated on to suicide bombing?

Nope.

All three men were…physicians.  Physicians!  Are you frickin’ kidding me?!! 

By virtue of their career path, these men have spent most of their lives in school, both medical school and residency.  They are all middle to upper class.  They all have families.  They all have jobs.  None have criminal records.  None were conspicuously malfunctioning as people prior to the attacks.  None had histories of depression or suicidal ideation. 

Religion is clearly and unambiguously the variable that makes the difference here.  The argument from economic despair falls flat on its face.  Just for kicks I’d love to hear the Hedges response to this incident.  I can picture it now.  Another highbrow sermon, lots of scholarly words, charges of racism.  More condescension, tortured logic, and obfuscation.  It would be pure comedy in any other context.  In this setting it is nauseating.

Back to the video:

The version version of the video was edited.  The *full* debate was aired only after tons of complaints literally begged for the unedited version.  The true story of the debate was then revealed.

Sheers, the moderator, was unable to maintain an unbiased role as moderator.  It was so bad that an audience member shouted at him.

Hedges was thoroughly defeated. With only a few exceptions, I think most posters here agree that he was embarrassed.  It was painful to watch his sophomoric attempts at evasive maneuvers…they were just too obvious.

Was religion the “key” to the particularly intense forms of violence in the middle east and elsewhere (like the TwinTowers, England, Spain)?  It’s complex, but the deliberate attacks on civilians appears to be performed only by those who take the teachings of the Koran literally and seriously.  Further, these bad guys come from a variety of backgrounds… not necessarily poor, living in oppressive conditions, and not uneducated.

It’s VERY difficult to dismiss the role of religion in the violence to say the least.

BF Skinner:
I am not a scientist by any means therefore I tread lightly when making comments about the promise of neuroscience.  I only use it as an argument that at some point in the future perhaps science will be able to answer some of our questions about behaviour.  But then again maybe not. My point, as I stated at the end, is at least Harris, as a scientist, uses facts and evidence to present much of his case.  So many others do not as this blog can surely attest.

Linda writes: ” [religiously literalists] don’t normally mutilate the genitals of their female children, sell them into arranged marriages, practice beheadings as a means of justice and treat woman like chattel. And they don’t kill “infidels” or themselves in the name of God.  Yet people in many Muslim countries do.”

It’s truly remarkable that these things even need to be said.  Thanks.

I’m not so sure that neuroscience is going to assist us too much in illuminating the particular actions of the religious person (or anyone else)... but that’s another topic!

It’s the conditioning that brings a person to revere important worldly topics for which there is no evidence… the problem seems to be located right there.

When everyone around you supports this “faith based” tradition… and teaches you that “faith” is inherently noble.  Houston?  We have a problem.

From that point on, all sorts of mayhem are possible.  There is no end to the extremes in human behavior…and violence… which can be wrought from the starting point of faith.

Sorry,  my last two posts were for 3legcat.  Ender, I will respond to the comments you addressed to me tomorrow.

part two (to Ender):

You are correct that Hedges believes other non-religious dogma would be used by perpetrators of violence if religion were not the vehicle.
I just don’t happen to believe other dogmas usually   incite such barbaric behaviors or martyrdom. (There are exceptions of course.) Gang members in America’s urban “ghettos”  who are poorly educated and live in poverty may use violence to express their anger and frustration at their oppressive culture, but they are not beheading each other and stoning their “unfaithful” girlfriends or wives to death.  They may be shooting each other with guns but they are not using excessive means to perpetrate death in the name of God.  And while all violence in this manner is highly worthy of condemnation, it is the level of intensity, barbarism and lack of remorse that makes Islamic violence so disturbing.  As Harris fervently claims: if we took the Sunnis and Shia out of the Iraq equation what would be left to fight over?  And while I will concur there are exceptions to this rule, I   don’t see “secular” violence in many third world countries with high populations of poverty, illness and war acting out in this manner.  Poor, uneducated people—let’s say in Latin America or Haiti—- don’t normally mutilate the genitals of their female children, sell them into arranged marriages, practice beheadings as a means of justice and treat woman like chattel. And they don’t kill “infidels” or themselves in the name of God.  Yet people in many Muslim countries do.  Why Hedges cannot understand the extreme practices of some “moderate”  Muslims, and denounce them openly,  is a mystery to me.

About Harris:  He can be an enigma.  And a charismatic one at that.

You are probably correct in much you have stated about him. And this is why I appreciate these thoughtful discussions. I tend to have a difficult time finding fault with his arguments knowing well, that he, like the rest of us, is not infallible. Be that as it may, I think perhaps you have understated him a bit—not given him credit where credit is due. He not only sees religion as “ungrounded in evidence” and ought to be “unmade”  (we can say that about many irrational beliefs in the world) but his biggest argument against religion is that it is the only phenomena known to man where no evidence is required for one to hold onto it so steadfastly. Religion is rather unique in its ability to ascend the throne with Reason and sit with her so high and mightily.  What other man-made mechanism can claim such fame ?

I agree that we must hold Sam accountable to any statements he makes concerning people’s beliefs and their behaviors.  Yet he will be the first to say all evidence is not available in the present and work in the field of neuroscience is basically in its infancy.  He, like the rest of us, has no control over that situation, and until we do,  we will be at the mercy of his and others’ hypotheses.  Regardless, Sam uses   substantial evidence frequently to make his points valid. Something many others profoundly lack.

About Sheer:  The case is closed: no more need be said.

And as far as my eloquent words go, I would say you have your own expressive and poignant moments.  Thanks for your lack of rancor in expressing your words and insights.  It makes these exchanges highly pleasurable.

Part one

Ender:

It seems a lot of lips have been flapping in the wind since I took a respite from this blog over the weekend. While my intent is not to criticize others sharing their views here, it seems that much of what is being stated is random and unfocused.  I have tried to maintain, throughout my writings, consistent attention to the Hedges/Harris debate.  While I have diverted in small ways, I continue to bring myself back to the matter at hand. I appreciate your efforts in doing this as well, especially sharing with me your comments about the three men at the debate.

I understand and agree with what you claim about Hedges. The most bitter facts against him are (1)  his refusal to acknowledge the denial and lack of diligence   many moderate religious people have in denouncing extreme and fundamentalist religious views.  They are dancing around the issues more carefully and meticulously than a ballerina at her first recital.  And (2) he ignores the severity of violence inherent in the Islamic beliefs that are practiced everyday throughout, or at least in parts of,  the Muslim world.

Hedges is adept at criticizing the religious right—-Dominionist—- in our country and I thank him for that because many in his shoes are not.  And I am excited when he says we cannot “tolerate the intolerant” as he skillfully incriminates the intolerant in his newest book.  But his acquiescence to moderates beholden to the Christian Left,  and the violence incurred by Islam is extremely disappointing.

I gave an example of this in an earlier blog when I discussed the “infidel”  Ms. Ali.  Some “liberals”  have attempted to derail her.  But her story indicates Islam is not incited by simply political and sociological oppression—-although with a few exceptions—- one can never exclude them completely from the equation.  As Harris points out, it is the Muslims themselves who are the most seriously harmed by their religion.  Much of their violence is directed at each other (or their women) not at an oppressive government or from those solely living in poverty. Otherwise why would some of the richest countries in the world, Saudi Arabia for example, practice some horrible offences against their women?  Moderate Muslims are performing atrocious acts on their own in the name of Allah.  These are not necessarily poor or uneducated people by any means. 

end of part one

A Cup Of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served Tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”

“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”

If only 1% of Iraqis murdering hundreds of Iraqis each week, sometimes each day, and the 99% can’t stop it, the Iraq must be full of the weakest minded wimps on the planet.

I’VE HAD IT WITH ALL OF THE ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS.  AT LEAST WITH ODINISM YOU KNEW WHERE YOU STOOD.  Be a Warrior.  Kill your enemies.  Don’t whine.  Maybe I’ll be on your side.

Instead we have this simpering mess of humans claiming to be ‘good’ in the name of a god while they wage war against women and children, instead of man to man and army to army.

I’m sick of the whole lying, tribal, racist, hypocritcal mess.  We should pull out and let you kill each other, and arm the Kurds and let them finish you off.  If we did pull out of the region entirely, and you managed to get your wish of the destruction of Israel, you’d all just turn on yourselves before the bodies were cold, and start wiping each other out.