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By Hondo, March 9, 2007 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment
3. Eric says that if we follow the logic of the Christian conservative about Christian education in the public classroom, then it would be constitutionally mandatory to also provide education on all other religions. Wrong. The Constitution doesn’t say that. The Founding Fathers didn’t say that. The very first American schools, after ratification of the Constitution, and then the Bill of Rights, all provided Christian, Bible-based education and ignored other religions. Look it up. This is a verifiable historical fact and it can’t be disputed. Again—what does today’s liberal know about the Constitution that our Founders didn’t know?
4. Eric cited Matthew 6:5-7 as proof that Christians are commanded by Jesus to keep our faith private. Please allow me to quote the first 8 verses of that chapter:
1 “Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.”
Jesus is most certainly NOT telling Christians to hide their faith. In fact, Jesus spoke to that very topic earlier in His Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:13-16 when He said,
13 “Let me tell you why you are here. You’re here to be salt-seasoning that brings out the God-flavors of this earth. If you lose your saltiness, how will people taste godliness? You’ve lost your usefulness and will end up in the garbage.
14-16 “Here’s another way to put it: You’re here to be light, bringing out the God-colors in the world. God is not a secret to be kept. We’re going public with this, as public as a city on a hill. If I make you light-bearers, you don’t think I’m going to hide you under a bucket, do you? I’m putting you on a light stand. Now that I’ve put you there on a hilltop, on a light standshine! Keep open house; be generous with your lives. By opening up to others, you’ll prompt people to open up with God, this generous Father in heaven.” (The Message)
The verses you quote from Chapter 6 were only meant as a command to not be arrogant or prideful. We are not to publically pray for the purpose of making other people think we are wonderful people. We are to humbly express our faith publically and privately in our every word and deed. That’s what Jesus wants us to do. By the way, when I watch some of these “professional Christians,” as I call them, get all golden-tongued and weave a lyrical prayer suitable for “The Medal of Honor for Speechifying,” it flat wears me out! Why? Because their attitude is arrogant. Check out my blog for a good story about a Methodist minister friend of mine who had a pretty healthy perspective on the state of “clergy ego.”
By Hondo, March 9, 2007 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment
2. Eric says that Christian expression by schools faculty members is prohibited by the 1st Amendment. That is patently false. Benjamin Rush, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, was one of the most repected men of his era. He has been called the “Father of Public Schools Under the Constituion” because he was the first to advance the idea of free public schools, and also because he was a pioneer in the opportunity for women’s education. Look at http://www.biblebelievers.com/Bible_in_schools.html to see his thoughts on school teachers using the Bible in the classroom. If anything on that site is historically inaccurate, please educate me with verifiable proof.
How about Noah Webster? Webster has been called the “Father of American Scholorship and Education.” Webster revolutionized school textbooks in America and believed that the Bible was the most important textbook a student could have. He believed in the teacher teaching the Biblical principles of Christianity to the student. This is historical fact. My question—what do we “know” about the Constitution that these pioneers of the American republic did not know? For liberals to say that Christian expression is prohibited by the 1st Amendment is to be ignorant of the recorded history of this great nation.
By Hondo, March 9, 2007 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment
Eric, I don’t know about you, but I’m enjoying this debate. You have, for the most part, treated me with respect so I will lose the sarcasm and play this debate straight. I can even tell you that I wholeheartedly agree with you on one of your points. The tax-exempt status of the modern Christian church is flat-out wrong. In my opinion, the Church has sold its soul to the state for a few pieces of silver. In return, the Church has given up its traditional role of speaking out about public policy and, yes, politics. The American Revolution happened largely as the result of colonial preachers stirring up sentiment against British rule. The modern Christian preacher seves up pablum to their congregations so as not to offend, and that is tragic.
That’s the only point of yours that I agree with. I read through your comments and broke them down into 4 main points (the tax exempt thing was #5). I’ll take them in no particular order.
1. You insinuated that I was a racist for even daring to point out the unconstitutional double standard between white conservative churches and black liberal churches stumping for candidates. That is such a tired liberal strategy used only for the purpose of intimidating a conservative into silence. You’re better than that, Eric! Intellectually, that is such a lame argument because it seeks to divert attention away from the truth. As an educator, you must be aware of that. How about just responding to the constitutional question and leaving the B.S. at home?
By Eric, March 9, 2007 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment
As far as Franklins quote History [the subject] will also afford frequent Opportunities of showing the Necessity of a Publick Religion, from its Usefulness to the Publick; the Advantage of a Religious Character among private Persons; the Mischiefs of Superstition, &c. and the Excellency of the Christian religion above all others ancient or modern (*19). (http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/volumes/v52/n19/proposals.html) - Franklin did say that, but it is important to note that his beliefs changed later in his life [see the website below for Franklin in his own words on the subject]. Also, he is here recognizing that in the societal sphere he had known up to this point in his life that the Christian religion (the only one represented in the colonies in any substantial numbers [just talking Europeans here]) had served to instill values that Franklin saw as useful. He also saw many Christian teachings as outright silly. It is well known that Franklin, who believed in a providential God, strongly doubted the divinity of Jesus, but he approved of his moral teachings. Franklin believed that all religion tends to promote morality, hence he was tolerant of a wide variety of religious beliefs, and donated money to all denominations which asked for contributions. (http://www.geocities.com/peterroberts.geo/Relig-Politics/BFranklin.html#rlg)
Franklins Deistic acceptance of Christian morality is part in parcel with Deistic philosophy, which is tolerant of all religions. His support of the Bill of Rights and writings in his latter years argue that what he said in 1749 may not have been how he viewed the world in 1789. I submit once more that actions speak louder than words. I will also note that, as I have said before, the Founding Fathers thought religion great for the masses, but not so much for themselves. They recognized its positive and negative aspects and designed the Bill of Rights accordingly.
Lastly, on the issue of Founding Fathers and their beliefs, I have to say that the world they lived in was very different from the one we live in now. How would Franklins, or Jeffersons views been affected by Darwins discoveries, or other subsequent leaps in our understanding of the natural world? Their world is not ours. The paradigm has shifted. That they produced our constitution and the Bill of Rights over 200 years ago is an amazing accomplishment. They were light-years ahead of many of their peers in the worlds of government and philosophy, but they did not have the advantage and access to knowledge that we have now due to advances in sciences, technology, and social philosophy that we have made in the intervening two centuries. I admire many of our Founding Fathers and I have conscripted many of their teachings in constructing my personal world view, but I also recognize them as fallible men. What they said is not cannon. It is not immutable. In fact, what no man says should be viewed as such. That is why I have always admonished those incapable of taking that next leap in logic or reason, those who refuse to think for themselves, and rely on the argument of faith. Faith is not an answer to a question; it is an intellectual cop out. So
argue with me Hondo. Argue using your words and your ideas. Make the leap from sheep to goat, my man.
By Eric, March 9, 2007 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment
More arguments made by the secular progressive fascists on this thread:
1. The Northwest Ordinance doesnt support the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation. Well, yes it does. It specifically says that religion, morality and knowledge are necessary for good government, and it mandates public education as the means to teach religion, morality and knowledge to our kids. What part of that dont you understand? Oh, and by the way. Did you know that Benjamin Franklin, in his 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, insisted that schools teach the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern?
Ahhhhhhhhhh! You know Hondo, it really is like smacking ones head against a wall. I briefly covered this in a previous post, but for the record will repeat myself. Maybe itll sink in this time, if I can pierce the cloud of faith engulfing your intellect. So, without reiterating my entire illumination concerning the NOW, Ill briefly touch on the chief roadblock that is preventing Hondo from getting it:
Quoting myself: Part of the problem is that Hondo and other Conservative Christians interchange the term religion with Christianity, as if there exists ONLY one religion and they have dibs on it and their truth is better than all others. The men who wrote the Bill of Rights used the term religion for a reason inclusiveness.
Once you come to terms with the fact that the word religion is not synonymous with Christianity, the NOW reads quite differently and conforms, as it should, to my previous suppositions in this thread.
By the by, Hondo, why dont you ever attempt to refute what Ive said with some logical argument? Its always a reiteration. It is apparent that the one who doesnt understand is you.
To be continued…
By Eric, March 9, 2007 at 12:41 pm Link to this comment
The modern liberal wants an America where all public forms of Christian expression are outlawed. Why do they want this? Because they know that a religious and moral America would never follow along with the secular progressive agenda. Therefore, it is necessary for the secular progressive fascists to undermine Americas Christian heritage, so that they can enforce their radical agenda on an unsuspecting people.
Well, Hondo thats where youre wrong. We want Christian expression via government agencies outlawed. I am more than happy for Christian shop owners, families, or churches to express themselves until their hearts are content. I just dont want individuals in my schools, courts, government offices, etc. expressing their Christian beliefs. There is a time and place for everything. Jesus has my back here see Matthew 6: 5-7 again! In fact, Im sure Jesus would not condone the gaudy displays in his name, either. After all, a man who believes worship and prayer should be in private, would certainly not endeavor to fire up a 50 foot electric cross, hold Christian concerts, or light up school buildings with tinseled, electric nativity scenes. Just to be sure, lets look at how Jesus approaches prayer (since we looked at worship, already):
23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
36. Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
35 And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.
46 And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.
16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.
18. And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, whom say the people that I am?
45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
(Jesus prayed alone, as he said people should—not in public)
So, it is clear to me that ones religion and spirituality should be a private affair. When in doubt, just ask, WWJD?
Would Jesus lead a stadium in prayer before a game? No
Would Jesus lead a school in prayer? No
Would Jesus teach Christianity in a public school? No
Hondo, I know you may be tempted to run to your Bible to contradict me, but I already know I can be contradicted because the Bible is full of contradictions. However, I think it is pretty clear how Jesus stands on this issue. Paul on the other disagrees with the man he thinks of as God (???) and thinks we should pray unceasingly.
Hondo, if you truly believe that the J-Man is God, then Id listen to him and not Paul, the Old Testament, or your preacher, and start acting in a manner consistent with his teachings.
By Eric, March 9, 2007 at 11:20 am Link to this comment
“The Christian conservative wants an America where churches are no longer exempt from freedom of speech protection”
How do you figure this is the case? I’ve gone to church for 24 of my 32 years and I’ve never seen their speech restricted. If you are talking about tax exemptions and political speech, then there are some issues. But these are EASILY skirted by talking about issues. “By not taxing churches, the government is prevented from directly interfering with how churches operate. By the same token, those churches are also prevented from directly interfering with how the government operates in that they cannot endorse any political candidates, they cannot campaign on behalf of any candidates, and they cannot attack any political candidate.” - so this is a good thing.
“(by the way—why is it OK for black churches to hold political rallies for Democrat politicians, but its not OK for conservative white churches to hold rallies for GOP candidates? Are there two separate Constitutions for conservatives and liberals? For blacks and whites? Just wondering).”
On this issue, there should be no difference on this rule based on color. But, I also think churches should not be tax exempt to begin with. If churches were required to pay taxes like every other business (and they are a business), not only would it go along way to helping pay for this great country we live in, it would free them from the strictures “preventing” them from backing individual candidates. But then government would have some say so in their business and accounting practices; many might be exposed for the money making frauds they are (and we know they don’t want that).
That you bring up race speaks for itself.
By Eric, March 9, 2007 at 10:34 am Link to this comment
The Christian conservative wants an America where the courts dont overstep their constitutional boundaries by placing time and place restrictions on Christian expression.
Im sure the CCs wants the above, but any practical person realizes the insanity inherent in this desire. If Hondo were to have his way, schools would be completely disrupted because lessons might interfere with prayer time or chapel time. We could have the excitable Christians running around and speaking tongues in the middle of class or before tests, and wed have to allow it, because to prohibit it would infringe upon their religion. Hondo, what you suggest is insanity. Step back, man step back, and look from a slight distance and youll see what you want is simply not doable
unless, of course, all other religions were outlawed, all other forms of Christianity.
By Eric, March 9, 2007 at 10:12 am Link to this comment
Continued from below:
However, the truth of the matter is that there existed in three of the four a very obvious, albeit tacit, promotion of Christianity by staff and faculty as well. All functions in which students were not in attendance were led off by prayer, etc. Something I was never comfortable with. If you didnt pray, it put you in an awkward position. In many cases, teachers transmitted lessons in Christianity in their classrooms that were certainly unconstitutional. In fact, although a Christian at the time, I was disturbed because the form of Christianity being transmitted did not jive with my own and my kids were coming home thinking they were going to Hell because I drank an occasional beer. Thats why Christianity has no place in school. Even among Christians there exists a vast degree of differences.
Part of the problem is that Hondo and other CCs interchange the term religion with Christianity, as if there exists ONLY one religion and they have dibs on it and their truth is better than all others. The men who wrote the Bill of Rights used the term religion for a reason inclusiveness.
Speaking of inclusiveness, if we follow the logic Hondo uses to submit that Christianity being taught in schools is constitutional, and we take into account my last paragraph it would become necessary to accommodate ALL religions or belief systems represented in the school. Not only is this just as wrong as teaching one religion in school, it is completely impractical. In the district I teach in now, there are no less than five major religions represented in the student body, not including us secularists. To be fair, wed have to have five separate prayers at any given event. Thats why religion should be a private affair. Religion is spiritual and should be personal, not public.
Many Christians ask WWJD? So, lets see what Jesus has to say on the issue:
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth; they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Matthew 6: 5-7.
If conservative Christians would just listen to Jesus, wed not even be having this debate.
By Eric, March 9, 2007 at 10:07 am Link to this comment
The Christian conservative wants an America where schools are not unconstitutionally prohibited from allowing Christian expression by students and faculty. The Christian conservative wants an America where students are not unconstitutionally prohibited from praying at graduation ceremonies. The Christian conservative wants an America where the courts dont overstep their constitutional boundaries by placing time and place restrictions on Christian expression.
Here is Amendment I of the Bill of Rights:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Now, looking at the above, it becomes reasonably certain that there is no misinterpreting what is being said. The Founders had just broken away from a European system in which religion and government were intertwined. No REASONABLE person could read the above and then think Christian expression by faculty is acceptable and not in contrast to Amendment I. Schools are designed to transmit knowledge from one generation to the next and play no small part in transmitting values (thats why the Christian conservative wants religion in school, because they know it is a powerful tool for creating future Christians and a Christian-theocracy). Regimes from the Nazis to those in power in theocracies like Iran have (had) systems in place to transmit their beliefs and promulgate the creed of the state religion. Christian conservatives dont see this as a problem because they see their religion as the right religion. Well, guess what? The Nazis thought they were right and the Islamic-fascists in Iran see their religion as right, too. Therein, lies the problem.
I dont know where you teach, but in all four of the school districts I have taught in during my career religious expression was permitted if organized by students. They had clubs, they had a moment of silence, they led prayers at football games and graduation, they met at the pole, and they were able to post flyers and invite other students to religious activities. Faculty, rightfully so, were not permitted to do any of the above.
By Hee-Haw (as in- the GOP Christian Mule Rapist), March 8, 2007 at 11:43 am Link to this comment
For comment 57341, what’s #3? “You ignorant sluts!”
By Hondo, March 8, 2007 at 8:23 am Link to this comment
I will close off my part in this discussion with a summary of what the Christian conservative wants for America, and what the modern liberal—the secular progressive—wants.
The Christian conservative wants an America where schools are not unconstitutionally prohibited from allowing Christian expression by students and faculty. The Christian conservative wants an America where students are not unconstitutionally prohibited from praying at graduation ceremonies. The Christian conservative wants an America where the courts don’t overstep their constitutional boundaries by placing time and place restrictions on Christian expression. The Christian conservative wants an America where churches are no longer exempt from freedom of speech protection (by the way—why is it OK for black churches to hold political rallies for Democrat politicians, but it’s not OK for conservative white churches to hold rallies for GOP candidates? Are there two separate Constitutions for conservatives and liberals? For blacks and whites? Just wondering).
The modern liberal wants an America where all public forms of Christian expression are outlawed. Why do they want this? Because they know that a religious and moral America would never follow along with the secular progressive agenda. Therefore, it is necessary for the secular progressive fascists to undermine America’s Christian heritage, so that they can enforce their radical agenda on an unsuspecting people.
Anyone who has verifiable, historical documentation to refute what I have said, please feel free to respond. All others, stay at home.
By Hondo, March 8, 2007 at 8:11 am Link to this comment
More arguments made by the secular progressive fascists on this thread:
1. The Northwest Ordinance doesn’t support the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation. Well, yes it does. It specifically says that religion, morality and knowledge are necessary for good government, and it mandates public education as the means to teach religion, morality and knowledge to our kids. What part of that don’t you understand? Oh, and by the way. Did you know that Benjamin Franklin, in his 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, insisted that schools teach “the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern”?
2. The quotes of the Founders don’t support the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation. John Adams clearly and distinctly disagrees. So does John Quincey Adams. So do John Jay and Patrick Henry. So does the Supreme Court (see HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. U.S.). But of course, those direct quotes from the men who founded America, or an actual Supreme Court case, don’t matter to you. Liberals don’t give two hoots about truth. Liberals only care about the secular fantasy world they have created in their minds.
By Hondo, March 8, 2007 at 7:54 am Link to this comment
Eric, your knowledge of Constitutional history and law is woefully lacking. Please allow me to educate you on a few points.
1. You say that the quotes from our Founders are not an accurate reflection of their beliefs, and that they were just “pandering” to the mobs. Where is your proof? I don’t believe that. I believe that the words of the Founders are truthful. To support my belief, I have offered historical documentation from a reputable source—the Library of Congress. You don’t like that source because you are a liberal, and liberals are diametrically opposed to anything connected with truth or reality. Unless you can provide historical proof of your statement, I will simply consider it to be more liberal drivel.
2. You said that the Bill of Rights is more important than the Constitution. Many of the Founders did not think so. The Federalists didn’t want a Bill of Rights because they thought that a listing of rights would be dangerous. If the national government were to protect specific listed rights, what would stop it from violating rights other than the listed ones? Since we can’t list all the rights, the Federalists argued that it’s better to list none at all. The Federalist argument was that the Constitution outlined the expressed powers of the federal government, and that it was already a self-limiting document. I’m a little confused, though, as to what significance that argument holds today? No Christian that I know of is in support of violating the Bill of Rights. As a Christian conservative, I don’t want Congress to establish a national religion. I also don’t want Congress (or the courts) to restrict religious expression. The modern liberal, however, DOES want to do away with the Bill of Rights. The liberal wants secular humanism to be the official state religion. The liberal wants time and place restrictions on Christian expression. Don’t lecture me about the Bill of Rights, Eric. It is the liberal fascist that wants to destroy it!
By Hee-Haw (as in Neil Horsely-GOP's Christian Mule R, March 7, 2007 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment
Me thinks that Hondo has cut and run from this conversation.
Nice arguments guys…
By The Schmidtchen, March 7, 2007 at 11:07 am Link to this comment
Hondo, before you attmept to cease upon my error let me correct myself. When I said that Madison was a federalist…that was in correct…I appologize, Hamilton is who i menat to put…Madison was an anti-federalist. Also, I am sorry to cut this so short but I have a micro-biology course to attend. Don’t worry though I’ll be back, and ill give you more Jesus points if you can come up with a decently constructed argument.
By Eric, March 6, 2007 at 9:52 pm Link to this comment
You said: “Oh, and by the way—Eric, my guess is that you arent much of a teacher. You cant tell the difference between a term paper and a responce posted on a blog.”
Well, Hondo touche. I’m glad you guys on the right don’t do personal attacks, like we do. But, I’m confused. I know what a term paper is, and I know what a RESPONSE on a blog is. But, I don’t know what a RESPONCE is. So, that must be where I made my error. Because I’m sure I was right on about quotes in blog responses needing to be tied together, and about how quotes don’t necessarily stand on their own - but I may be wrong about blog RESPONCES. Maybe for blog RESPONCES, you can just slap anything down and call it an argument. Yeah, that must be it. Thanks, Hondo, for teaching me about blog RESPONCES. Now, I can be a great teacher like you.
By Eric, March 6, 2007 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment
Kudos, my man! Kudos! Although, I’m sure Hondo’s response won’t be nearly what you hoped for. Ol’ Hondo is clearly incapable of giving us HIS arguments. Instead we must settle for lists of quotes and the party line. I guess we’ll just have to be satisfied with debating a Limbaugh proxy as opposed to a REAL man of letters - a true student and teacher of government.
Man, I sure wish a true, die-hard Christian conservative with his OWN ideas would enter the debate.
By Eric, March 6, 2007 at 12:26 pm Link to this comment
Your quotes did not stand on their own in relation to Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance. You did not address the fact that I completely decimated your fabrication concerning the NWO as a document supporting your supposition that America was founded as a Christian nation. I’ve noticed your tactic is to ignore what has actually been said, focus in on trivialities, speak the party line (your comments are right out of the mouths of Limbaugh/ Hannity), and then point to a bunch of quotes, or a Library of Congress website. Where are YOUR ideas, Hondo? Your spoutings about what “SP’s” want to do are drivel.
I spent the years from 1993 to 2002 as a Christian conservative. I loved me some Limbaugh and Hannity, and watched Fox News regularly. That all changed when I actually began researching questions I had about my faith, which led to questions about my political views, and questions about my take on the state of the nation. It is a humbling experience to realize all you thought was BS. Not many people can make that journey. It is far easier to insulate yourself from the “mainstream” and bury your head in the sand that is Fox News and conservative radio. That you come onto a site like Truthdig is impressive to me because it exposes you to new ideas; but, you have to take the next step - take that journey down the rabbit hole and find the truth.
Secular progressives are liberal in the classical sense that defined our Founding Father’s world view. They desire liberty and equality for all - not a few, not just the Christians, not just the whites - but all. A nation that wears the trappings of a given religion (in our case, Christianity) cannot guarantee those certain unalienable rights because those rights are anathema to the Christian religion (if you are a true Christian and the Bible is the word of god to you, not a book of philosophy, as your Jefferson quote illustrates).
You say that you are government teacher, but are unable to see the tell-tale signs of fascism in your own backyard. You’d rather deflect and point your finger at a group that by its definition would find a fascist state anathema to their beliefs. Your rantings are just that - rantings - like the gibberish of a madman. What the Christian Right fears from the left is not a liberal fascist state (that is some silly sounding stuff, right there), but what it considers an anarchic state, where everything goes - the opposite of a fascist state, in fact. Either option is ridiculous.
There are some aspects to my Christian upbringing that I hold onto - some philosophical elements. Of course the sentiment predates the Bible, but Sunday school is where I learned it: “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.” This is an edict that I think all can live by - and one, that I do live by. Other SPs, like myself, simply argue that Christian conservatives simply live by the code mouthed by their savior. We do.
By The Schmidtchen, March 6, 2007 at 10:37 am Link to this comment
Hondo, I regretfully voted for that war monger of a president we elected (so the idea that this is some democratic scheme to “get the Christian minority” is not applicable…oh wait your 80% of the country…so that means your the majority…and what do we know about the majority from government 1301?that they are the ones in power…if you got that than very good Hondo…you get two Jesus points, you can trade them in when you commit sin so you dont have to face the things you have done in your life) the point is, I was sold lies…as to “Fascism grows on the left side of the political spectrum.” how is that sir, when historically it was the Christian right that used the bible to defend the rights of slavery, to subjugate women, suppressing their rights, and again to fight the civil rights movement? Look even today, they use their beliefs to treat homosexuals as second, no third rate citizens. To people like that they are just below black Americans, Wow that sounds like equality. Basically, because Gay Americans want to get married thats an assault on your religion? Once again more ethnocentric garbage from the right…for one marriage is not an idea that is associated with only Christianity…secondly it lost any protection form your religion the day the government started using marriage in law (such as taxes etc.)
I guess what really bothers people about Christians in general is that they are more concerned with those that refuse to believe in their God while they themselves ignore everything that is decent about the Christian faith
also let it be known that not all Christians are like that, they just dont speak out and distinguish a difference between themselves and fanatics, they are they silent
at least I hope for the sake of the world they are the majority
this same problem is seen in the Islamic world
funny that two groups that hate each other so much are so very much alike
By The Schmidtchen, March 6, 2007 at 10:08 am Link to this comment
In the name of liberty and reason, reason being the greatest gift ever given to man by God, I implore you to reconsider your career path. For someone who so clearly has as little understanding of government and history as you to be teaching (perhaps blindly lecturing, as I’m sure that is the type of “teaching” to which you prescribe, is a better word) is illogical and is a disservice to our youth. To be frank sir, I find it appalling that someone is paying you (at a public or college level) to teach a personally modified version of history and politics. I am sure you are the type of American that would say a Christian state is not and would not be a bad thing. But tell me Sir, what good is freedom of religion if the laws of one religion (a religion that cannot get along amongst themselves, I am referring to the different Christian cults
no its denominations
yes, I believe thats the term you use) govern all?
Perhaps it would be more tactful if I were to lay out before you a small history lesson so that you can better prepare your arguments for any further communication we may have. You openly quote several of the founding fathers (many of which were Christian in faith, however secular in their governing perspective) as though things they said to appease the mobs (as all politicians pander to the crowd
for approval ratings, votes and other forms of support
thats what politicians do
check it out sometime) were the same as the secular actions that they actually took part in (see such documents as the Bill of Rights). The Bill of Rights while a boring old historical document to many (such as yourself) is far more important than the Constitution (in the fact the constitution can be stripped of powers the Bill of Rights cannot) The American Constitution and Bill of Rights are if you will a two-way receipt. The Constitution is a document that states the powers and rights the government has to carry out. The Bill of Rights is a document, which gives the terms, and conditions to which the people agree to let the government operate without over throwing it.
Federalists such as Madison argued that a Bill of Rights was not necessary in the fact that all things not stated by the Constitution were assumed to be the right of the people. The Anti-Federalists, an opposing LIBERAL (liberal means open-minded
the very idea that far right fanatics have been able to put a double meaning on the word is disturbing in the least) movement felt that in the past governments had said this or that but in the end did as they pleased with little or no concern for civil rights particularly of the minority. With this in mind the purpose of the Bill of Rights was to state clearly to the people of the world that these things (those listed in the Bill of rights
perhaps I should list them for you? let me know if you cant find it on your own) would never be encroached upon by any group (the majority) that has power.
From an early time in our countries history there were some who sought a Christian state, and early on, as a whole, the Founding Fathers dealt with it in a secular fashion. In September of 1789 the First Federal Congress adopted the First Amendment to the Constitution, which, when ratified by the required number of states in December 1791, forbade Congress to make any law “respecting an establishment of religion.”
I hope you have found this small bit of history useful; perhaps you can work it into your syllabus some time. I plan to write more as there are many inconsistencies in your poorly constructed argument but at this time must digress as I have things that must be done
next time if you like Hondo, we can talk about more history and politics or better yet the disturbing ideology of religions that breed hatred and bigotry through archaic and cryptic text.
By Hondo, March 6, 2007 at 8:48 am Link to this comment
“There are none so blind as those who will not see.” I have provided the actual words of our Founding Fathers, showing their beliefs about what kind of America they created. I showed you a Library of Congress online exhibit that shows the Christian heritage of America. I showed you a law, passed by Congress, that stated that, before a territory could be granted statehood, they had to provide for Bible-based education in their schools. In response, I have gotten personal attacks. I have gotten hysterical rantings from the secular progressives that they will not, by golly, pay attention to any of the evidence I have provided because, by golly, it contradicts the faux liberal reality that they have created for themselves. Oh, and by the way—Eric, my guess is that you aren’t much of a teacher. You can’t tell the difference between a term paper and a responce posted on a blog. The quotes I provided stand on their own. They don’t require my interpretation. Of course, that kind of thinking is antithetical to the secular progressive doctrine. The secular progressive believes that American history is OK, but would be perfect after liberal revision.
Let’s tie all of this together. The Christian conservative has no desire to force you to believe as we do. You have free will and can believe as you wish. You can also live as you wish, so long as you don’t interfere with the peaceful living of our lives. The secular progressive is a little bit different, though. The S.P. has an agenda that they want to force, by law, all Americans to live under. The S.P. seeks to confiscate our hard-earned money/property, under penalty of law, to support their agenda. The S.P. seeks to circumvent our republican system by going to the courts to enforce their agenda.
Folks, you have nothing to worry about from the right. Fascism grows on the left side of the political spectrum.
By Eric, March 5, 2007 at 4:50 pm Link to this comment
What sport do you coach? Are you a position coach, or do you just work with the kicker? Government teacher? Bwahahahahahahaha!
By Eric, March 5, 2007 at 12:28 pm Link to this comment
As one teacher to another - since when is it acceptable in an argument to list quotations without in some way tying them together and offering your take on what the quotes say?
I am an English and History teacher. If I were given a list of quotes like you provided in response to a question posed, or in answer to an opposing position, I would have to give you an F. You would fail that particular assignment. Furthermore, with answers like that you couldn’t even pass a state mandated test of minimum skills, such as TAKS in Texas.
It is very clear that some Founding Fathers were Christian; I never denied that fact. I only denied that the majority of the most influential figures were Christian (They were Deists.), as evidenced by the documents they produced and the personal writings they left behind. Listing quotes from John, Sam, and John Quincy - Adams all - does not make article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance a proclamation to go and teach the masses Christianity. In fact, all those quotes do is show that the Adams boys had in common the fact that their intellect was clouded by the smoke of religion. As I said, the Northwest Ordinance is no more proof of America being founded as a Christian nation than are the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. Try, again!
There exists no intellectual bankruptcy on the liberal side of this argument. These are facts, tied together with Reason. That you ignore them and barf up some quotes in place of argument, shows where the intellectual deficit lies. Use your brain as the Deity intended and you will find truth in Reason.
By Hee-Haw (as in Neil Horsely-Christian Conservative, March 5, 2007 at 11:35 am Link to this comment
What the hell is an “Activist judge”? If you mean judges who overrule legistlation, then conservatives Scalia, Thomas, and Rehnquist are your “activist judges.” C’mon you Govt Teacher..you should know this stuff!
Regarding God in the Constitution (or rather the absence of God), our military is not sworn to protect and defend the PERSONAL WRITTINGS OF OUR FOUNDERS against all enemies foriegn and domestic. So you can shove your Reagenesque beliefs up your ass. They are irrelevent.
And even Thomas Jefferson, by your own provided quote said the bible is a “book” that contains “philosophy.” He didn’t refer to it as the word of God. And he certainly didn’t put it in your and my Constitution. That is because…oh never mind…you can’t even comprehend it, so I will save you the embarrassment.
As for a God-favored America, I won’t engage your nationalistic tendancies. I saw your comments to that poor Canadian woman about the US “saving your bacon daily” or something like that. Do you remember? Just before you set a good Christian example and called her an “ignorant slut”? Here is the link: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060718_robert_scheer_bush_open_mike/#16753
And I think you also said “If the republicans loose either house of Congress in November, I will quit bothering you, AND I will affix “Hillary 2008” bumper sticker to my Chevy…” (comment 15038)
So Honko, you got that bumper sticker affixed yet?
By Hondo, March 4, 2007 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment
To Hee Haw—Let’s try a few facts, shall we?
1. You mentioned the three-fifths compromise, and other slave-related parts of the original Constitution, and you act like that proves we have a “living constitution.” Wow! It’s a good thing I’m a government teacher. I’m able to educate you on this issue.
All of those parts of the Constitution were changed via the official, constitutionally mandated amendment process. They were NOT changed by unelected, liberal activist judges who just decided one day to legislate from the bench. In other words, to change the Constitution, we must follow the process that the Constitution mandates, not the willy-nilly method preferred by the modern liberal.
2. The Constitution doesn’t mention God, but all of the Founders did in their personal writings, and in their official writings, and in their speeches. Look at http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html
3. Has God blessed and favored America over other nations? Yes He has. America is the wealthiest and the healthiest nation in the history of the world. That didn’t happen because we are perfect people. It happened because, historically, Americans have followed and worshipped God. As Alexis de Tocqueville said, “America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”
By Hondo, March 4, 2007 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment
ART. 3. “Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.”—Northwest Ordinance
The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity
I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.
John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”—October 11, 1798
“I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.” December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
“Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.” [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all
Our forefathers opened the Bible to all. [ “American Independence,” August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]
Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity
and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system. [October 4, 1790]
John Quincy Adams:
Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?” Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity”?—1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
“The belief in God all powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities to be impressed with it.”
By rikules, March 4, 2007 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment
“4. Should ateists, wiccans, feminists, and homosexuals be outlawed, jailed, or executed?”—No. Thats a typically insane question from the lunatic left. No Christian would answer yes to that question. “
actually, you lunatic….
your response is insane!
using YOUR logic;
1. if America is a christian nation
2. bound by the laws of your god and your bible
3. then atheists, wiccans, feminists, and homosexuals
would be OUTLAWED!
and then they WOULD BE jailed or executed…
you are either deranged (which is most likely the case)
or a liar….
you know perfectly well (regradless of how willing to lie about it you are (breaking those preciosu 10 commandments!))
that you would HAPPILY SUPPORT a christian America that criminalized anti-christians (atheists, wiccans, homosexuals, liberals…)
The fact that you continue to lie and deny this shows to what depths you would stoop in your crusade to create a fascist christian theocracy in America
In fact…we all know “it is your christian duty to enforce gods law!”
if you did NOT support criminalization of atheists, wiccans, homosexuals, etc then you would be going against your own god!
THAT would put YOU in danger of going to hell!
(something I hope happens anyway….you deserve it)
By Hee-Haw, March 4, 2007 at 2:02 am Link to this comment
No Honko, we are not tragically misinformed about what it means to be a Christian conservative. We are just trying to get our heads around your sick twisted version of Christian conservatism, probably better called by its real name: fascism.
I see your last post was just a partial cut/past from your blog. Lets look at a little more of what you wrote:
- Todays liberal believes that thier political beliefs are a natural extension of thier beliefs concerning religion.
- Todays liberal believes there is no such thing as “right and wrong.”
- It is our duty as Christians to fight for the soul of America.
-It will take us becoming “Christian conservative warriors” to head off the disaster that will come as a result of these evils.
Okay Hondo McVeigh, you want to be a Christian warrior? That happened once already; it was called the crusades.
What you call this rubbish about a Living Constitution is what changed the Constitutions three-fifths comprimise, the slave trade clause, and the fugitive-slave law. You want to return to slavery and un-equality?
You say the Constitution is grounded in the belief that God made us all equal in His perfect sight. Where does the Constitution say anything about God?
And just for clarification, when you speak of a God-blessed nation, are you saying that God favors America over all other nations? I would really like to know your view on this.
By Eric, March 3, 2007 at 7:50 am Link to this comment
Continued (ran out of space):
“I mean that our Founders believed that the only way that the republic would survive would be if we the people continued to worship God. I mean that the Founders required Christian education be provided through the schools in a colony as a prerequisite for statehood (see Northwest Ordinance). I mean that the most fervent hope of our Founders was that the American people stay true to God, as a means of securing the blessings of liberty for themselves and their posterity.”
I don’t know which Northwest Ordinance Hondo is reading, but if it is the actual one, then he is reading more into the articles provided than they allow, or the writers intended. Their desire for a specific-religion nuetral country is made clear in the very first article:
ART. 1. No person, demeaning himself in a peaceable and orderly manner, shall ever be molested on account of his mode of worship or religious sentiments, in the said territory.
THE 1ST ARTICLE specifically provides for a protection of different modes of worship and those of different religion. It was so paramount to their belief in a SECULAR nation that it is number one with a bullet on the list of articles! I imagine that if they wanted everyone to be Christians, article one wouldn’t exist or would have called for an edict to suppress others forms of religion. Well, it doesn’t. It is instead very much in keeping with the intentions of the Founding Fathers.
ART. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged… (Indian BS platitudes left out).
I don’t see the word Christian above, nor the naming of any specific religion, nor the mention of using the Bible in classrooms. I’m happy to see Hondo doesn’t want to see Bibles in classrooms either (but he’s all to happy to have Creationism taught and by default (connect the dots) - Christianity - taught in science classes as a competing theory with Evolution. The science involved in Intelligent Design is merely faith clothed in the trappings of psuedo-science. But I digress, since I only have limited time here…the Founding Fathers saw that the structure and morality taught via religion (whatever religion that may be) had positive consequences for the general populace. We might come back to this later, but it should be noted that the Founding Fathers definitely made a distinction between themselves and the masses. And religion - religion was good for the masses as a force for control. They also saw the danger in this controlling element and feared what the masses could be brought to do. Thus, this educated elite (they were intellectual elitists! The Bane of the Right!) constructed a Bill of Rights to protect the country against such forces.
I will stop for now and revisit his other points later when I have more time.
By Eric, March 3, 2007 at 7:49 am Link to this comment
Hondo provided the following, and I shall address each point he makes (He’s in quotes”):
“First, I will respond to the specific questions that have been asked of me.
1. What do I mean when I say that America is a Christian nation?”—-I mean that the Founding Fathers were Christians who looked to the Bible and to God for guidance as they created our constitutional republic.”
All were familiar with the Bible and it was an important document in many of their lives - once again, however, the chief voices/ creators of the Declaration of Independence (Jefferson) and the Constitution were not bible-thumping evangelical Christians. That is the tricky part - the lack of distiction between Christian groups. The reality is that Christian sects number in the thousands and that there does not exist the level of unification and like-mindedness that those on the Christian right would like us to believe when they hold up the banner of ‘Christianity’. A Unitarian, a Quaker, a Presbyterian - the Christianity of these sects is much different (and far more palatable to the world) than the Christianity of Southern Baptists and other Evangelicals. Many looked to “God for guidance,” but the God they looked to was a far more inclusive God and did not preclude God by other names (i.e. Allah, Yahweh, Buddha).
“I mean that the people who inhabited this land during that time period were almost all Christians.”
Here are some population numbers (the 1st number is immigrants, the 2nd is total poulation derived from the area to the left):
U.S. Historical Populations
Country Immigrants Before 1790 Population 1790
Africa -2 360,000 757,000
England* 230,000 2,100,000
Ulster Scot-Irish* 135,000 300,000
Germany -3 103,000 270,000
Scotland* 48,500 150,000
Ireland* 8,000 (Incl. in Scot-Irish)
Netherlands 6,000 100,000
Wales* 4,000 10,000
France 3,000 15,000
Jews -4 1,000 2,000
Sweden 500 2,000
Other -5 50,000 200,000
Total -6 950,000 3,900,000
As you can see, 20% of the population was African-American, which at the time were often discouraged from being Christian and refused baptism since to do so might make them ‘brothers in Christ’ and negate them for use as slaves. However, Southern Baptist groups used the Bible to justify slavery to the slaves and eventually let them in the fold. So, if you add that 20% (of which we’ll knock off five as brain-washed black Christians happily toiling the fields of their white masters - God-fearing men and true Christians all) we’re left with 15% that are not Christian at all (it’s hard to get exact numbers here, because great records weren’t kept as to the preferences (religious or otherwise) of African-Americans because they weren’t considered people by their Christian masters). Then, if we add in the remnants of the Aboriginal population of the Americas (est. 1,100,000), which are always conveniently ignored and for which records are sketchy, since these natives were also not necessarily considered people, since they weren’t Christian or European - we get an additional 28%. Then, since we know the numbers of colonist/ early Americans estimated to be Christain as roughly 80% of the EUROPEAN population - that leaves an additional 20% who were not Christians. 20 + 28 + 15 = 63% of Americans not being Christian circa 1790. And, since all Christians are not equal and are actually quite diverse, we can really look to the group that acted as the genisis for the Christian right today - Baptists in all incarntions - consisted of 10.1% of the European population of the United States.
***Clearly, the majority of PEOPLE (and I include ALL people), was not chiefly Christian at the time of the founding of our great nation.***
By Hondo, March 2, 2007 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment
Most of you are tragically misinformed about what it means to be a Christian conservative. Please allow me to share our beliefs:
Christian Conservatives—people who have given their lives to their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and who, politically, believe in the foundational principles of the American Republic. Those foundational principles were first put into place, with a firm reliance on God, by our Founding Fathers and were later revived by The Great Communicator and The Great Conservative, Pres. Ronald Wilson Reagan.
As Christians, we believe that…
1. God is our Heavenly Father, the Author of life, and the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. He created all people in His image.
2. Jesus Christ is God’s one and only Son, and one with God.
3. Jesus was born of a virgin, lived as fully human and fully divine on this earth, was crucified on the cross, died, was buried, and on the third day was raised from the dead. He did all of this as the Perfect Sacrifice for our sins, so that all who believe in Him could have eternal life in paradise.
4. Jesus gave us the perfect bluprint for living our lives. Specifically, He said that we were to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, and that we were to love and serve our fellow man just as much as we love and serve ourselves.
5. God sent His Holy Spirit to convict us of sin, righteousness and judgement of sin, to transform our hearts in God’s sight, to help us remember the Word of God, to help us lead godly lives, to give us spiritual gifts for the edification of believers, to guarantee our eternal life with God, and to empower us to be witnesses for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
6. we are commanded by our Lord and Savior to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. We cannot force anyone to believe, and, in fact, we are prohibited from trying to force belief. All people have free will, and they will either believe, or they won’t. We are to let God sort that out.
As Reagan Conservatives, we believe that…
1. the Constitution says what it means and means what it says. In other words, let’s have none of this rubbish about a “Living Constitution.”
2. our Constitution and our entire system of government is grounded in the belief that God made us all equal in His perfect sight and that He endowed us with certain natural rights which no man can take away from us. Those rights are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
3. the Constitution was written to protect us from the possibility of government taking those rights away from us.
4. the principles of federalism, separation of powers, checks and balances, popular sovereignty, majority rules, protection of the minority, and the rule of law are all woven into the very fabric of our Constitution and must be followed to the letter with no deviation.
5. the judicial branch was always intended to be the weakest of the three branches.
6. the republic cannot survive without a religious and moral citizenry who in turn elect virtuous leaders. We are not legally required, of course, to elect only Christians. We are better off as a society, though, if our leaders worship and follow God.
7. life and liberty are only secure so long as our property rights are secure.
8. prosperity is highest in a free-market economy with minimal government regulation and low taxes.
9. government, for the most part, should leave us alone and stay out of our lives.
10. America is a “tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teemimg with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here (legally).——quote comes from Pres. Reagan’s Farewell Address, except for the word legally at the end. I inserted that because I think that’s what Pres. Reagan meant.
By Hondo, March 2, 2007 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment
First, I will respond to the specific questions that have been asked of me.
1. “What do I mean when I say that America is a Christian nation?”—-I mean that the Founding Fathers were Christians who looked to the Bible and to God for guidance as they created our constitutional republic. I mean that the people who inhabited this land during that time period were almost all Christians. I mean that our Founders believed that the only way that the republic would survive would be if we the people continued to worship God. I mean that the Founders required Christian education be provided through the schools in a colony as a prerequisite for statehood (see Northwest Ordinance). I mean that the most fervent hope of our Founders was that the American people stay true to God, as a means of securing the blessings of liberty for themselves and their posterity.
2. “Should the Bible be taught in school?”—No. On this point, I disagree with our Founders. They believed that the Bible should be taught in schools (see Northwest Ordinance). I disagree. 99% of America’s public schools today are absolutely awful, due to the destructive effects of liberalism. Our public schools screw up reading, writing and arithmatic—-why would I want them screwing up Bible education?
3. “Should evolution education be banned in the schools?”—-No. Evolution absolutely should be taught in the schools. It should be taught as a theory that some people believe, that some people don’t believe, and that science hasn’t yet proved. Our schools ahould also teach that creationism and ID are other theories that some people believe, some people don’t believe, and that science hasn’t proved. Of course, liberals would never go for a balanced approach like that. Who’s the fascist again?
4. “Should ateists, wiccans, feminists, and homosexuals be outlawed, jailed, or executed?”—No. That’s a typically insane question from the lunatic left. No Christian would answer “yes” to that question.
5. Should America only allow Christians to be citizens or to have rights?—No, for all the same reasons as question #4.
By Eric, March 2, 2007 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment
Sorry Rikules for not realizing it was you who had so deftly used satire to point out what the Christian fascists really want to do. The terms “brilliant” and “genius” were used by me to describe your approach - and they remain accurate descriptors. Kudos, Rikules! Kudos!
By Eric, March 2, 2007 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment
“Rikules” and “Jesus was a Hippie” make some great points. It’s not the speech of the leader that matters, it is their actions. Even early politicians/ public figures like Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson understood political expediency (no surprise here). Sometimes it is necessary to pander to one group (Christians) to get the support needed for, or at the very least head off an assault, on reasonable policy. As Rikule points out, the documents forming the basis for our republic serve as the proof in the proverbial pudding in this regard. Actions truly speak louder than words; and, the actions of the Founding Fathers say, “America is a secular nation.”
If we are going to look at the statements of our Founding Fathers, logically, it would prove that personal letters and published works would form the basis for a far more accurate summation of their “actual” views. The public arena by its very nature leads to the use of euphamisms and crowd-pleasing words.
I can’t recall his/ her handle - and, I know he/ she was being hyperbolic and facetious (At least I hope he was) - but the BRILLIANT person who explained what the Christian Fascists wanted to do upon assuming power was very accurate in his/ her summation. The Extremist Evangelicals on the Right of the Christian spectrum surely want to impose their doctrine LEGALLY. LOL! Good point, GENIUS!
It’s amazing that so many of these self-identified “god-fearing” Christian neocons long for a return to the good ol’ days. Because, you know, there’s nothing more wholesome or satisfying than burning a heretic, lynching a man of a different color or belief system, committing torture via an Inquisition, stoning a femal adulterer to death, or wiping out the population of an entire land mass in the name of god. Man, that’s what family values are all about. If we could only get back to the way things were…
Well, if we close are eyes, stuff our ears, and silence our tongues, the good ol’ days may be just around the corner; ready to resurrect and bring rapture for the few and hell for the many.
Thinking isn’t a crime…yet. So keep speaking out against propaganda, lies, and the insanity presented as a way of life by the Christian Fascists. Chris Hedges deserves much praise for his efforts to shine the light of truth on so touchy a subject.
Hondo and Mr./Mrs. Hyperbolic, we - the members of the so-called “Eric Brigade” (LOL) - await your responses.
By rikules, March 2, 2007 at 10:56 am Link to this comment
a challenge to hondo;
just what do you mean by “America is a christian nation”?
do you mean that the bible should be taught in schools?
that evolution (the big lie) should be banned?
that atheists, wiccans, feminists, homosexuals should all be outlawed? jailed? executed?
that only christians are citizens?
that only christians have rights?
I’d be very interested to hear your lies on this subject.
By rikules, March 2, 2007 at 10:34 am Link to this comment
lies from hondo;
“Our founders were Christians, and they founded this great republic of ours as a Christian nation. “
truth from rikules;
our founders were christians who founded a SECULAR nation.
more lies from hondo (odd that a christian would keep breaking those precious 10 commandments)
“The United States was founded as a Christian nation—”
the United States was founded as a SECULAR nation.
more idiocies from hondo;
Also, take a look at this quote from Americas first Supreme Court Chief justice, John Jay:
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. (Oct. 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., Vol. IV, pg. 393).
It couldnt be more clear. America was founded as a Christian nation, and continues to be a Christian nation, as 80% of Americans self identify as Christian.
more sanity from rikules;
quoting 1 lunatic doesn’t prove anything.
listing hundreds of quotes from 100s of long dead white male christians doesn’t prove anything.
all you are doing is giving THEIR opinions.
THEIR opinions are NOT facts, NOT laws….
tell me, hondo, are you sane enough to realize that;
1. EVERY American has a right to NOT believe in YOUR god?
2. that EVERY American has a right to believe in ANY Religion, ANY god or NO GOD at all?
3. that MOST (or all) of the laws of America have NOTHING TO DO WITH your god or your bible?
4. that even most of the blue laws that were biblically based have been overturned or, at the very least, no longer enforced?
5. that NO citizen can be forced to obey your bible or the laws of your bible?
6. that the first 4 of the 10 commandments are UNCONSTITUTIONAL?
7. that MOST of the 10 commandments are UNCONSTITUTIONAL?
8. that, in direct defiance of your bible;
a. gays are out and about and NOT discrimnated against
b. most people have sex outside of marriage
c. most people get divorced (even wackjob con christians (limbaugh is working on his 4th divorce even as I put you in your place)
d. that evolution is being taught in schools, NOT creation
e. that god-ordained slavery has been outlawed (was god wrong about slavery?)
you can quote all the dead foudning fathers you want to but the truth remains;
the declaration of independence
and our rights
are all secular!
and owe NOTHING to your god, your religion or your bible.
By rikules, March 2, 2007 at 10:09 am Link to this comment
“You compare Christian conservatives like myself to Nazis. Thats a reprehensible statement,”
is it any more reprehensible than when conservatives/conservative christians refer to hillary as HITLARY?
or when they accuse liberals of being nazis?
are you familiar with the terms libernazi or feminazi?
“Explain to me how, over the first 200 or so years of our nations history, when it was culturally accepted that America was a Christian nation, that we didnt have Christian fascism in this country.”
I will do that.
but first, i’d like to ask….how did you ever get to be so stupid?
to some degree christian fascism DID exist; only white male property owners could vote or hold public office. Slavery (as endorsed and promoted by god in your bible) was common throughout much of America. Gays were not allowed to come out; discrimination against gays was accepted. unwed mothers, divorced women etc were all treated as pariahs. These are all examples of christian conservative facism.
since MOST Americans (prior to the 1960s) were christians, other than gays and people who believed in evolution there were few Americans whom you fascists could exert your facism against.
now that more and more people are refusing to mindlessly accept the idiocies of your fascist religion your fascist tendencies are becoming more evident.
“And explain to me how, with the liberal, judicial jihad currently being waged against Christian conservatives,”
ha ha ha…
typical paranoid con wackjob…
there is no jihad against christian conservatives.
we are merely standing up to you and your fascist religion.
we are merely telling you that you will NOT be allowed to create a christan fascist theocracy in America.
posted by the lunatic hondo;
“Well, so far the Eric Brigade hasnt responded to my challenge (see comment #55345). I exercised self discipline and DIDN’T personally attack any of those who expressed opposing viewpoints. I very calmly asked some very simple question (I even typed slowly so that everyone could understand)and I asked for the Eric Brigade to refute my comments. I also adked that they provide documentation if they wished to call anything I said false. What was their response? Personal attacks and liberal hatred. How tragic that the average liberal has nothing to bring to a battle of ideas! “
could you please explain to me how this statement;
“How tragic that the average liberal has nothing to bring to a battle of ideas! “
is NOT an example of personal attacks and conservative hatred?
By Jesus Christ was a hippie, March 1, 2007 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment
I would first like to point out that nobody from the ‘Eric Brigade’ever said that they were liberals. It’s not only liberals that recognize the threat of christian fascism. I’m on the right of the line, but I can certainly see extremism on both sides. If you can’t you are blind.
“Christians arent fascists, and Christian conservatives are certainly not dangerous people.”
You’re right. Christians aren’t fascists. Conservatives aren’t dangerous. The same way Muslims aren’t fascists or dangerous. BUT Extremist Muslims, like Extremist Christians, when given the right social setting will push their views on others with so much force that everyone becomes what they are or want them to be.
We are a nation of people free to choose to live their lives the way they want to, christian or not. That’s what being American is all about, not religion. The founding fathers knew this and held it very dear, obviously. The constitution grants Americans freedom OF religion as well as freedom FROM religion.
The Islamic republic of Iran is a good example of what happens when government and religion meet. You usually end up with a religious nutjob for a president (one that will probably claim to be speaking to God on behalf of his country). Oh wait…we already have one of those.
And Hondo, Jesus wasn’t a christian. He was a jew. God wasn’t a christian either. The scriptures describe him as a buddhist.
By Hondo, February 28, 2007 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment
Well, so far the “Eric Brigade” hasn’t responded to my challenge (see comment #55345). I exercised self discipline and didn’t personally attack any of those who expressed opposing viewpoints. I very calmly asked some very simple question (I even typed slowly so that everyone could understand)and I asked for the “Eric Brigade” to refute my comments. I also adked that they provide documentation if they wished to call anything I said false. What was their response? Personal attacks and liberal hatred. How tragic that the average liberal has nothing to bring to a battle of ideas!
I stand by everything I said in my post, and I would encourage any of the more clear thinking readers of this blog to investigate the facts I laid out. It was the truth.
By the way, compare my responses with the responses of the “Eric Brigade” and then think about what foot the “fascist shoe” more easily fits.
By rikules, February 28, 2007 at 8:52 am Link to this comment
I’m truly offended that so many liberals keep referring to us God-fearing christians as “fascists” and “nazis”, as though we would gather in white shirted mobs and start ILLEGALLY tossing liberals, homosexuals, wiccans, atheists, feminists and democrats into ovens.
Nothing cold be further from the truth.
We merely intend to use our votes to take over the government, establish gods law as the law of the land, make wicca, homosexuality, atheism, liberalism and feminism crimes and then have you all LEGALLY rounded up, sent to reeducation camps and, for the most severe cases of liberalism, deportation or execution.
after that, god will reward us with candy and ice cream.
Remember, we can’t be truely free until we are free of everything that offends us!
By Eric, February 26, 2007 at 7:22 pm Link to this comment
I hope you didn’t read a personal attack in my response, as that was not intended. On the subject of your recent post…to do what you ask would require more space than a post provides. In fact, I’m sure I could write a book in my attempt to refute you. Although, I’m sure I could (refute you that is). But, I’ll just give kuddos to ARMED Henry! If what he quotes from your blog is true, then anything a “Jihadist” like me could say will only fall on deaf ears.
Like Henry, I grew up going to Southern Baptist Church and know the brain-washing he speaks of…it’s a form of Christian-militism. I shudder to think of the joy I experienced when we sang “I’m in the Lord’s Army.” The “us” and “them” distinctions were clear, and questions were always met with “that’s what the Bible says,” so it had to be true. Thinking was discouraged to say the least.
I’m ashamed to say, even as an adult, I at one point in my life considered myself proudly among the Christian Right. I’m just glad that the disgust I experienced upon a Sunday School service on “mixing tribes” woke me from my stupor.
It feels great to have a clear head and be a Free Thinker…like the Founding Fathers.
By ARMED Henry, February 26, 2007 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment
I just finished Chris Hedges book, and I found it is pretty spot on to the attitudes in the Southern Baptist church that I gew up in. Even in my adult life I am still trying to come to terms with the brain-washing that occurred in those early years. I like the way that Hedges organizes the chapters and I recommend the book.
As for Hondo, the guy is detached from reality and should be committed. Here are a couple of gems from his blog:
“Liberalism equals secularism, and it has no place in the the Christian church.”
“...most reputable scientists don’t buy into evolution. They consider it to be voodoo political doctrine.”
“[President Bush] then needs to grow a backbone and have Pelosi and Murtha arrested and prosecuted for treason.”
The problem with Christian conservatives like Hondo, as Hedges so effectively points out in his book, is that they have moved away from the perosnal transformation of traditional evangelism and are now obsessivly focused on seaizing political power.
To Hondo, Hee-Haw baby…
By Hondo, February 25, 2007 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment
Eric, I noticed that you completely (conveniently?) ignored my reference to the Library of Congress website. Was that intentional on your part? Were you deliberately trying to distort my comments so that it appeared that I was only referencing Christian sites?
I also noticed that you didn’t even attempt to refute any of the quotes on the Christian site I referenced. You are right when you say that there is a possibility that a Christian site could be biased. You didn’t provide any documentation of anything specifically on that site that was inaccurate. Why?
You compare Christian conservatives like myself to Nazis. That’s a reprehensible statement, but you are entitled to your opinion. Please, though, do me a favor. Explain to me how, over the first 200 or so years of our nation’s history, when it was culturally accepted that America was a Christian nation, that we didn’t have “Christian fascism” in this country. And explain to me how, with the liberal, judicial jihad currently being waged against Christian conservatives, we will ever have the power to “Nazi-fy” America. Please document your answers to all of these questions with historical, verifiable facts.
Please notice that I have not used any type of personal attack against you in my comment. Please do me the same courtesy.
By Eric, February 25, 2007 at 9:52 am Link to this comment
You have done quite a bit of research, but the site you are using with “ministries” in the title clearly denotes that the information will be slanted toward your predetermined belief (i.e. the Founding Fathers were Christian, etc.). Have you read Thomas Paine’s The Age of Reason or Ben Franklin’s Autobiography? These men were in their own words clearly not Christian. The author of the site you provided a link for went so far as to say he wasn’t sure about Paine; that he expressed some non-Christian views but maybe he changed his mind before he died. He didn’t. Paine believed in God, as did Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and the rest of the Founding Fathers, but they were Deists. Deism can be accepting of Christianity or any faith, as it professes belief in a supreme being. However, they also hold that anything written about about God is undoubtedly false. The ONLY Word of God in the minds of Deist is found in the creation, not in a bible, Quran, or any other book claiming to be “God’s Word,” so to use that as a basis for American government would go against their belief systems. Some believed in prayer, some believed God was not involved in the affairs of men - they had very complicated views on religion, but all agreed that Reason was the way to enlightment, not faith. They all supported Christians’ (and any other group’s) right to worship freely, but assuredly did not want Christianity or ANY established religion intertwined with government. God is one thing - God was inclusive of ALL religions in their minds, according Deist (Masonic) principles - but the God they mention is not exclusively the God of Christianity. God is mentioned as the Creator, or Providence, etc., but rarley as “God” in their documents for that very reason. If their intention was to create a Christian nation, they would have mentioned Jesus is those most important of documents and we wouldn’t have protection against the establishment of religion, since Christianity would BE the established religion.
Henges is right. The Christian Fascists are banging at the door. They’ve learned the power of propaganda and they use it daily. I imagine we’ll being hearing the equivalent of “Heil, Hitler!” before to long. The parallels to the fascist movements of the early to mid 20th century are frightening.
By Hondo, February 24, 2007 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment
I did do the research Eric. The majority of the founding fathers were Christians. God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. Go to the Library of Congress website I referenced and read it. Also, go to http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm
and look at actual quotes of the Founding Fathers. The evidence is irrefutable. Our founders were Christians, and they founded this great republic of ours as a Christian nation.
By Eric, February 22, 2007 at 2:03 pm Link to this comment
America - a christian nation?
So, based on Jays say so and the fact that many of the more (in)famous immigrants to the colonies came from christian stock, the claim is made that America is a christian nation and founded as such?
What religion was George Washington?
The majority of the major Founding Fathers?
Why isn’t Jesus, the Christian religion, or, for that matter, God mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, or the Constitution?
Why reference a creator and not name it (him/her)?
Do your research and educate yourself.
By Hondo, February 15, 2007 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment
Alejandro, with all due respect, you are completely wrong with your comment (#52962) about America’s Christian heritage. The United States was founded as a Christian nation—look at http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/
This is an online exhibit about religion and the founding of America on the Library of Congress website. If you study the info on that site I think it would be educational for you.
Also, take a look at this quote from America’s first Supreme Court Chief justice, John Jay:
“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” (Oct. 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., Vol. IV, pg. 393).
It couldn’t be more clear. America was founded as a Christian nation, and continues to be a Christian nation, as 80% of Americans self identify as Christian.
As to the rest of what you said—God isn’t a Christian, Jesus isn’t a Christian—I’ll just chalk that up to temporary insanity on your part.
By Lefty, February 14, 2007 at 8:36 am Link to this comment
Re: Comment #53359 by Big Al on 2/13 at 11:06 am
Big Ali wrote:
“Lefty: Scott Ritter is not an idiot. James Bamford is not an idiot. Jimmy Carter is not an idiot. Brent Scowcroft is not an idiot.”
Your premise, that these people think that Israel controls the U.S., is false. And. anyone who believes that these people actually think that Israel controls U.S. policy in the middle ease, despite what they may say, is an idiot as well. First, Jew-haters have been known to lie to advance their political agendas. Second, oil controls U.S. policy in the middle east, not Israel, nor any Jewish-American, pyschopathic, neocon, fools.
By Big Al, February 13, 2007 at 11:06 am Link to this comment
“Bottom line, anyone who thinks that Israel is the tail that wags the dog - the U.S., rather than Israel doing pretty much whatever the U.S. tells them to do, is just an idiot.”
Lefty: Scott Ritter is not an idiot. James Bamford is not an idiot. Jimmy Carter is not an idiot. Brent Scowcroft is not an idiot.
By xargaw, February 11, 2007 at 10:48 pm Link to this comment
Hedges has the education, experience and expertise to back up his claims which appear frighteningly on target. However, he is not so controversial nor radical. You can find similar comments, though not as barbed from Jim Wallis, Michael Lerner, Joan Chitsiter, Wm Sloane Coffin, James Forbes, Bill Moyers and progressive cleryman from all over this country. Mainline Christians have awaken to the corporate fundamentists. These people have almost nothing to do with Christianity. They are a corporate cult seeeking empire.
By Alejandro, February 11, 2007 at 8:21 am Link to this comment
When are people going to realize that the United States Of America is not a Christian nation? And never will be as long as the majority of its citizens trust in the Constitution of the United States of America to be our binding contract with ourselves period… God is not a Christian, Jesus was not a Christian, and you that claim to know what the founding fathers envisioned for our nation, who for the most part, were Deist by the way, need to really examine your motives and don’t be afraid to love your neighbor. The claim of superior knowledge, of the unknowable was not the message of Jesus.
By Lefty, February 10, 2007 at 8:27 pm Link to this comment
Hondo, you’re not even a convincing liar!
By angel, February 10, 2007 at 6:26 am Link to this comment
Maybe clowns such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Haggerty are not seen to be dangerous, but the people who they stir up can very well be. If we did not have such a highly developed police force and legal system in this country, I think that we would see more acting out of the religious right - bombings, shootings, assaults. These folks are true believers and true believers think that the end definately justifys whatever means one needs to to get the job done. So in that regard, “The War” that the evangelists are currenly waging on the rest of us, is no different than the war that the radical Muslims are fighting for their “God”. We just have to watch our backs and support your local police! And, of course, vote Rational.
By Hondo, February 9, 2007 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment
Christians aren’t fascists, and Christian conservatives are certainly not dangerous people. Christian conservatives are people who celebrate God’s love for us, the Good News of Jesus Christ, the foundational principles of the American republic, the wisdom of America’s Founding Fathers, the clear thinking common sense of Reagan conservatism, and the relationship between all of the above.
Christian conservatives like myself are not interested in foisting our beliefs on you. We all have free will, and you are free to believe as you wish. However, if you make the choice to work towards the destruction of our Founder’s vision for this republic, and to work towards a secular progressive, socialist society, we will fight you tooth and nail.
By Kennadav, February 9, 2007 at 4:50 pm Link to this comment
When Chris Hedges mentioned that currently the US is not ripe for a rapid fascist growth due to a still predominately robust economy I believe he has unveiled the true aim of the religious right. They will if at all possible create circumstances which will force more and more Americans into abject poverty (corporate sourcing out) which will accomplish the main two goals; a fearfull population willing to sacrifice freedom for economic security, and greatly increased corporate profits. I suggest Iran will be the target before the Bush administration is finished it’s intermediary advancement stage to fascism. They may even create a siuation for a “setup” failure of a one term Democratic President.
By Lefty, February 9, 2007 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment
I must say, as much as I agree with almost all of the positions taken by the writers of Truthdig, that the number of readers/posters on Truthdig who are overt, bitter, vitriolic, Jew haters, the degree of vicious hatred that they have for Jews, the outrageous, preposterous, comments that they make about Jews, and the corruption and powers over the U.S. and U.S. policy that they attribute to Jews, is truly shocking.
Is it that liberals have become the new Jew-haters of the world. It sure looks that way. I consider myself to be a socialist, liberal, and I don’t have the hate for Jews, or Israel that so many readers on Truthig have. In fact, most of the Jews I know are also socialist, liberals. Sure there are exceptions, and they all seem to a be part of, or connected to, the Bush administration - Kristol, Libby, Wolfowitz. These Jews I consider to be assholes, fools of the highest order, and despite what they say, more of a threat than an ally of Israel. But they are the vast, vast minority!
Or, is it that these readers/posters are Arab or Muslims bigots, or just right-wing-Christian-psychopathic-nutbag-wacko, bigots, masquerading as liberals, spreading filthy propaganda?
Bottom line, anyone who thinks that Israel is the tail that wags the dog - the U.S., rather than Israel doing pretty much whatever the U.S. tells them to do, is just an idiot.
By Anthony Bono, February 9, 2007 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment
“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”—
Beware of the Zionism rag, fellas. The Israeli government is an ugly reflection of its master, at best. Know your history. Maybe truthdig can do a piece on GEORGE SELDES, to remind us how this and other cons work. Gotta be a couple of J-school outsiders that remember George and the infamous “Paul Von Hindenburg” interview, right?
By James V, February 9, 2007 at 12:25 pm Link to this comment
We in this country tend to only see the bright side of things that are a part of us and our history. I suppose most humans do this it’s just that as Americans we have the unique power to influence and effect many more people with that jaded perspective. And while there is certainly a powerful Israeli lobby in this country, there is no need to target that and blindly ignore the much more integral element to our national/western identity: Christianity.
We intentionally ignore the fundamentally puritanical aspects of Christianity in our history and in the history of western culture. This denial is dangerous and I believe it is an important component in the rise of the fascism that Chris Hedges talks about. Christianity (most religions really) is a political creature. It is like a nation without borders. And like many nations, the people are generally good but the leadership can and does become corrupt and the “spirit” of the people becomes lost over time. If the people are adequately fanatical or living in adequate despair, that leadership can quickly and effectively rally the masses to the new twisted cause. In this, religion is often much more effective than any particular form of government.
Chris Hedges is quite correct in stating that there is an attack on truth. The war is against reality. It is an assault on humanity and reason. If a person looks back at the darkest moments in human history one will find ignorance and intolerance. It is shocking to me that there could be any group of people that would embrace those things as desirable. Yet here we are in the “civilized west” doing just that. Mankind has had many rises and falls over time going from darkness to enlightenment back to darkness. There is a part of me that’s fearful that we may be on the brink of another fall.
By DSmith, February 9, 2007 at 3:26 am Link to this comment
I don’t know…Hedges sounds an awful lot like “Liberal New York Times reporter finds Christians stupid and DANGEROUS!” Details at eleven.
I still contend the bigger problem, one which is being kept hush hush, in this country is the Israeli lobby. I don’t think Christians, with their concerns about abortion and having their children bombarded by “bad influences” hold a light to fanatical Zionist who lobbied for this country to invade Iraq and are now pushing for war with Iran. That’s scary!
By RAE, February 8, 2007 at 6:25 pm Link to this comment
I wonder how long it will be before Chris Hedges gets “disappeared?” Or is he SO correct that the steamroller of Christian fundamentalism (dominionism as he terms it) cannot now be stopped. Another “dark age” is inevitable.
What I think is “funny” is that American’s are fighting (and losing) a war elsewhere on the planet against those who Bush says “hate freedom.”
NO ONE HATES FREEDOM MORE THAN THE RIGHT WINGNUT CHRISTIANS who are poised to take the reins of power and make EVERYONE slaves to their ideology.
This is going to be fun!
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