See my take on evangelicals in the military in Lori Bogle, The Pentagon’s Battle for the American Mind: The Early Cold War (Texas A&M Press, 2004).

When I was a Lieutenant in the U.S. Army in the early 1970’s, we sang “Jodie” songs as we marched.  Apparently soldiers are currently encouraged to sing such songs as “Jesus loves me this I know, because the Pentagon tells me so…” or that favorite, “Onward Christian Soldier, going as to “meeting hall”; watch out all you Quakers, for you will see “the fall”...or another favorite, “I don’t want elation, I just want to understand the book of Revelation”...; obviously this is not the Military of years ago.  Also, a video that features former Congressman Tom DeLay must be “A-OK (as we used to say on the radio).’”

Lefty:
Don’t crow yet. Check out the latest issue of the Weekly Standard. It seems Christianity is making a comeback in, of all places, Holland, that bastion of secularism. You had better act fast or the Christians may Christianize the entire European continent, and then who knows where they may spread. Yes, get on your high horse and vanquish those windmills before they blow you and your ilk to hell and gone. See you in the funny papers, Don Quixote de la wackjob.

Poor widdle Wefty.
Did him get him’s feelings hurt?
Get mommy to teach you to play nice, then those mean old christo fascists won’t call you names.
Now go play with yourself. Now one else gives a crap.

Lefty:
You are way to easy a target, like shooting a hippo in a bathtub. BORING. BORING. BORING.
Signing off now.

Hey bskiller, renee and cathrine,

As I expected, christians faced with the fact that their belief system is pure myth and fable ultimately have no substantive arguments and predictably resort to name calling and hostility - the Christian thing to do, no doubt. Yet another reason why you should be barred from military service. 

Your religious brainwashing has left you dependent on a “faith” that has no basis in reality, is utterly unsupported by empirical evidence, and has crippled your abilities to think critically.  Yet another reason you are not fit for military service. 

Your kind were anachronisms in the 18th century.  In the 21st century you are little more than pitiful curiosities.

Hey, crap for brains (lefty)
Cite your sources or shut your yap. Millions did this or that. If so, you should be able to provide references. It didn’t happen and you can’t. What a moron.

Lefty, idiot child:
Are Muslims Christians too? You forgot that they also proselytize, did you?

Mormons and J.W.‘s do not hold to the classical doctrines of Christianity, notably the doctrine of the Trinity. Sorry to spoil your latest ignorant rant with the facts. But you can easily make up whatever you want to suit your psychotic world view, so don’t go away mad, just go away.

Lefty:
What is axiomatic is that you are a certifiable psychotic. Make a new year’s resolution to see a shrink.

Lefty:
Yeah, Hitler was a Christian - just like you.
Get a clue, fathead.

You’re welcome, John C!  But, I could never qualify for the Adolph Hitler award.  Hitler was a Christian.  [Scroll down].

[Hey Truthdig, why is it that by the time my messages appear in a thread, there are already responses to them?].

It’s a Christian conspiracy, Lefty. Velma reads your “mind” (yeech) and transmits its silly contents to a comedy site on the Web, where it is displayed for all to see. Thanks for the laughs. You are among our favorite comedians. We also enjoy Bozo the Clown as philosopher and Rosey O’Donald as moral compass. Keep up the good work. You may soon qualify for the Adolf Hitler Chair of religious freedom. But practice that snappy salute and click your heels, and don’t forget the moustache. You’ll make a cute l’il fascist.

Hey Richard,

Adolph Hitler was the epitome of a Christian.  In fact, he was suffering from end stage Christianity.  Catholics ARE “real Christians” right, Dick?

Hey Rene,

Where’ve you been, I’ve been waiting for you.  Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t Christians? Bahahahahahaha!  How about Catholics?  Not “real” Christians either, huh?  Mary worshippers?  Pope worshippers? They’re eternal souls are all doomed to spend eternity in hell with heathens, pagans, Jews and Moslems?  Only real Christians - like you - are going to heaven, right?  Bahahahahahaha!!!

Rene, your ilk are the reason that “real Christians” should be disqualified from serving in the military or any other governmental capacity.

Catherine,

Your convoluted diatribe begs my question.  How can Christians be trusted to put loyalty of country ahead of loyalty to their God in a time of war?  Your implied premise that only Christianity stood between the Nazis and the orders of their commanders is sophistry.  It is yet another example of boundless Christian arrogance.  Any atheist is just as likely to know the difference between right and wrong as well or better than any Christian. 

It is axiomatic that many more Christians have spent time in jail for lying, cheating, stealing and killing than ever fought bravely in war.  The Christians that murdered and tortured millions of Moslems in the dozen or so crusades over 1,000 years, they were just following orders, or were they doing what their Christian bible commanded of them?  The Christian explorers and missionaries that murdered millions of indigenous Americans, they were just following orders or doing what their Christian bible commanded of them?  The Christian inquisitionists who murdered and tortured millions of Jews and others for refusing to convert they were just following orders or were they following the command of their Christian bible.  (Wait, Catholics are Christians, right?).  The Christians who tortured and murdered tens of thousands of other Christians, for over 1,000 years, for not being the right kind of Christians, they were just following orders or following the command of their Christian bible. The Christians that murdered millions of Jews and gentiles in the holocaust, they were following orders or following their Christian sense of write and wrong?

The very existence of America owes to the hate and bigotry of Christians against each other.

Christianity is doomed to the scrapheap of mythology where it belongs, sooner or later.  The sooner, the better for mankind.

Hey Windbag (LEFTY)
Use some facts in your posts (diatribes) or get the hell of the air. You sound like Adolph Hitler.

Lefty:
Your “arguments” are going from bad to worse. Get some fresh talking points or quit while your behind.

1. The Uniform Code of Military Justice requires only obedience to LAWFUL orders. An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders—if the order was illegal.

2. Nazi soldiers claimed they were only following orders in murdering millions of civilians. The German government was complicit in these atrocities at the very top. By your logic, Lefty, the soldiers were gulty of no crime in “just following orders.” Obviously, the Nurnburg Court thought otherwise.

3. Would you go to Iraq if you were drafted (disregarding the fact that you are physically unfit)? No, I think not. You would cite some putative principle higher than loyalty to your country. That is, YOU are the judge as to what is legal, etc.

4. Christians have fought, and bravely, in every battle in which this country has been engaged. Go to any National cemetery and count the religious icons on the monuments. You will find they are overwhelmingly Christian. You dishonor them and disgrace yourself with your hateful prejudice. You have met the enemy and he is you.

Lefty:

Only Christians evangelize? That’s like saying only women give birth - not terribly insightful. One wonders, however, if you ever noticed that some Muslims also proselytize, and in a most offensive manner, e.g., convert to Islam or die. Also, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses proselytize, but I wouldn’t expect you to recognize that they are not Christians. Or is that that you do and therefore do not rant against them?

Your ignorance is truly breathtaking.

[Hey Truthdig, why is it that by the time my messages appear in a thread, there are already responses to them?].

Mary Sunshine and Roxy,

You elected to respond to my posts with the arrogant condiscension so typical of blissfully ignorant Christians, and what can only be characterized as some of the most unfounded presumptive stupidity imaginable, if it wasn’t so predictable. 

Your cold wet noses have been rubbed in the truth - you and your primative Christian ilk place vestigial, superstitious myths and fables above logic, reason and empiric evidence.  Christianity, like all dogmatic faith based religions have proven to be the scourge of mankind.  America was founded on the premise - which has proven to be true - that when religion and government become entangled, religious freedom suffers.  Your primative, vestigial survival instincts for tribalism overwhelms your capacity for reason.  There is no place for your anachronistic kind in a society that respects religious freedom including the freedom to reject faith as stupidity, much less, in an age of reason.

You both opened the door with your personal attacks!  Don’t complain that I walked through it!  Lets see if you were genuine when you promised not to further respond to me.

Now, go worship a tree, you . . . Christians.

Lefty:
I’ll not write to you again. Your cover is blown. You are merely a propagandist spouting talking points that even you can not believe. I prefer to have my dialogue with honest truth diggers. Sadly, you are not one of them.

Have a merry…whatever

Lefty:
You are a fool and a liar. Your own words convict you.

“Further, more people have been tortured and murdered by Christians for refusing to convert to Christianity, or to a particular sect of Christianity, than for any other cause in the history of the world.”

I’m certain you weren’t there to see the torture and murders in person. So cite your sources, windbag. You hypocritically scold others for inadequately sourcing their arguments. Then you make the above outrageous statement without any sources other than your overheated imagination. You are disgraceful, not to mention discredited. I will have no more dialog with the likes of you. And I hope no one else wastes time on you and your stupid “ideas.” Go to blazes you phoney sack of manure.

Billy,

Your back!  Your cheep shots are unmistakable. 

Let me ask you this.  Soldiers have a duty of loyalty first to their country.  Christians’ loyalty is first to their invisible God, Jesus.  How can a Christian be trusted to resolve any conflicts between these two loyalties in favor of his country in a time of war?  How can a putative Christian soldier be trusted follow orders if such orders were agianst his religion in his own mind?  Notwithstanding the multitude of irreconcilable conflicts in the Christian bible, there is a risk of a conflict of interest for putative Christian soldiers that, arguably, disqualifies them from military service in America.

Putting that aside for the moment, Christianity is the only religion in the world that practices evangelism - attempting to convert all others to Christianity, as mandated in the Christian bible.  Evangelism is a highly offensive and despicable practice to non-Christians.  Christians are basically saying, your religion is wrong, you worship a false God, and if you don’t accept my God as your lord and savior, you will spend eternity in hell with Satan.  (Imagine how offended you would be if someone looked you in the eye and said that about you and Jesus).  Imagine the adverse effect that such conduct has on the cohesiveness of a combat unit in a time of war.  Clearly, it weighs against allowing such conduct. Therefore, Christians are less qualified to be soldiers than members of other religions.

As for proctologists, yours would sooner find my foot.

Lefty:
Don’t be too hard on whosit. I believe the passage he stated is an unpublished opinion. I find nothing at all about those who assented or dissented nor any individual opinions at all in the account that I read. It is, after all a decision of 1892. But, as you said, you would be unmoved anyway. For the record, however, you WILL find the following in the text of the decision

“And in the famous case of Vidal v. Girard’s Ex’rs, 2 How. 127, 198, this court, while sustaining the will of Mr. Girard, with its provision for the creation of a college into which no minister should be permitted to enter, observed: ‘It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania.’ If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find every where a clear recognition of the same truth.”

The argument I would make is that upwards of 75% of all Americans TODAY identify themselves as Christians. Yes, I have references to choke a horse if you need them. I would hazard a guess that the Christian population in the military is even higher. Given your preferences, we should discharge all Christians as unfit. What about Mormons, Jews, Unitarians, Moslems, Buddhists, Taoists and Rosecruceans? Can they stay in, If not, I think we are down to about five percent of the population. With that to pick from, even France could lick us.

I look forward to your usual brilliant rebuttal just as soon as your proctologist finds your head.

Mary Sunshine,

What a lovely name . . . Ehem, “my Bird Wilson?”  Bird Wilson was an 18th Century Episcopal Reverend, a superstitious Christian who believed that myths and fables - invisible Gods and demons - were real.  How does that make him mine?  He also happened to be a contemporary of George Washington who, according to modern religious scholars, characterized Washington as a Deist.  As for whether Washington was or was not in fact a Deist, scholarly articles have more credibility than your naked assertions. 

Further, assuming arguendo, that your quote is genuine, conspicuously missing is the word “Christian” “Christianity” or “Christ.”  He could have meant Deism.  Moreover, just because Washington made a public statement doesn’t mean that it is right, or true, or a genuine reflection of his true beliefs. 

When you say “in this context” you ask me to assume that Washington’s position is right.  I don’t know what Washington means by “political prosperity.”  I would agree that Christianity has been an “indispensable support” in the service of the political prosperity of many politicians like Strom Thurmond, George Smathers, Jesse Helms, Duke Cunningham, Tom Delay, Bill Frist, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.  I don’t agree that they did much good with it other than get votes.

Having said that, in my opinion, religion is a manifestation of a combination of factors including the fear of the unknown, and the primitive, vestigial, survival instinct for tribalism.  I don’t think that fear, ignorance or primitive, vestigial, instincts make very indispensable support for anything important.

Mama,

Try to make a substantive argument, please. 

As for being a “little twerp,” in light of the present state of my girth, I’ll take that as a compliment.  Then again, anyone who calls herself “Mama” (I can just see you waddling around K-Mart in your muu-muu) probably doesn’t qualify for little or twerp either.

Roxy,

Whether or not Islamofascism is a threat is not germane to the discussion.  The issue is whether ignorant, superstitious, tribalistic Christofascists should be permitted proselytize in the U.S. military. Further, more people have been tortured and murdered by Christians for refusing to convert to Christianity, or to a particular sect of Christianity, than for any other cause in the history of the world.  In any event, both Islam and Christianity are equally mental disorders. 

As for Bush, your implied premise - that some people thinks he is the source of all of the evil in the world - is false.  No one thinks that.  It’s another strawman that you construct in order to have an easy opponent to argue with.  However, many think that he knowingly lied in order to make a case for war as a subterfuge for the financial benefit of himself, his friends and family - the biggest breach of public trust in the history of America, that he is a torturer, a mass murderer, and an utterly incompetent administrator who deserves to be impeached, convicted, removed from office and incarcerated, or worse.

Velma,

I nominate you for superstitious fool of the millennium.  In the age of reason, Christianity is a mental disorder.  THERE IS NO REDEEMER.  The story of Jesus is no less a myth than any of Greek and Roman mythology.  CHRISTIANS ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE CURRENTLY ENGAGING IN A SEASONAL TREE WORSHIPING RITUAL for crying out loud. 

Furthermore, your quote cannot be found in the opinion of Holy Trinity Church v. U.S., 143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511 (U.S. 1892), which leads to the inescapable conclusion that you are not only a superstitious ignoramus, but a fraud as well.

However, even if your quoted passage was there, it would only support the argument that Justice Brewer was a superstitious dolt.  It wouldn’t change the fact that the story of Jesus is a myth with no basis in reality, and that anyone who believes in myths and fables is unfit for military service.

Lefty: I thought of you when I read this post on Dr. Sanity’s blog:

One of the most amusing aspects of the denial of the Islamofascist threat, is how eager those who deny its reality are ready to embrace the fantasy that somehow Christianity is the real threat. Witness all those who claim that Bush is imminently going to impose a Christian theocracy here; the complete hysteria over Christian “symbols” and the denial of a Judeo-Christian heritage. This is the same kind of psychological displacement that can be seen in the phenomenon of Bush Derangement Syndrome. If Bush is the cause of all the evil in the world, these same people see Christianity (or Judaism—any religion but Islam) as the greatest threat to the utopia in their mind.

Check her out. Maybe she can help you with mental disorder.

Lefty:
I nominate your last post as the most inane of the millenium. “People so afflicted [with Christianity] are mentally unfit for military service . . . in America, anyway.” Read the U.S Supreme Court case” The Church of the Holy Trinity vs. the United States.”

“Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian.”

By your “logic,” no Christian is qualified to defend our Christian civilization and our institutions. What utter stupidity. You are truly an ignoramus.

Lefty:
No one, including you and your Bird Wilson, knows whether Washington was a Christian. It is in the final analysis a matter of the heart. What is known is that he attended Anglican/Episcopal services and performed official functions in the church. He did make many references to God and religion in his official pronouncements. In his farewell address, He said the following:

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensible supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens.”

In this context, I ask you. Which religion(s) do find unworthy as “indispensible supports” of political prosperity? Is it just Christianity or do you also find Judaism unqualified? What about Islam, Buddhism, and Confucianism? Which religions are sufficiently free from superstition, irrationality and mythology that you can recommend them, or at least tolerate them? I ask because, although you seem to single out Christianity as an egregious violator of your conscience, I suspect you have little use for any religion. In that you are most unlike Mr. Washington, and so much the worse for you.

BTW, don’t bother to argue Washington was a Deist. He called for God’s blessing too many times to support that old canard. The Deist God didn’t intervene in Human affairs.

Lefty:
You are an amazingly opinionated little twerp. Learn to spell before you take on the task of ridding the world of Christianity.

Mama,

Who on Earth could possibly be more irrational than someone who actually believes all that Christian hooy?  Christianity is a pathological state, a mental dissorder.  People so afflicted are mentally unfit for military service . . . in America, anyway.

“Jesus Camp”

Looks like Christian Embassy for children to me.  Brainwashing is brainwashing no matter who the victim is.  In fact, it seems that Christianists have taken a play out of the Islamist play book.  What’s the difference between Jesus Camp and the Muslim Madrasas in Pakistan, other than the name of their respective Gods?  If there is such a thing as sin, could there be a more egregious sin than purposely brainwashing children?  Isn’t brainwashing the purpose of school prayer?

http://www.buzzflash.com/store/items/443

Grasshopper and Velma,

If you are going to try to impose your personal religious beliefs on someone, you should be prepared to be rejected by any means necessary.  This should come as no surprise to you.  Christians have a long history and tradition of torturing and murdering people who refuse to convert and worship their God.

Amos,

No, Anne Coulter could not be me.  But, based on your defensive, illogical and hateful diatribe, it seems much more likely that she could be you.  As for doing the christian thing, don’t look at me. I think that the world has too many Christians doing those things already.

For some reason it took about 24 hours for my previous posts to appear in the thread. By then all of these kind Christian responses were already posted.  So here are my replies.

Roxy,

Please note that my quote concerning Washington’s religious beliefs is supported by citation to an academic authority on that subject.  Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15.  Your characterization of Rev. Bird Wilson, (quoted by Paul F. Boller), as “Bird (brain) Wilson” is hilarious.  You knew him well enough to call him a bird brain, did you?  You must be at least 250 years old.  What could be funnier than watching Christians eat their own when they don’t agree! 

Choke down Mr. Madison’s words one more time Roxy: “Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?”  Do you get it yet?

On the other hand, your quotation is suspect because: 1) it is a bare quotation without any reference supporting it’s genuineness, 2) Washington was historically well known to be extremely secretive about his religious beliefs having rarely ever discussed the subject in public or written about it, and 3) christian zealots are notorious for lying and re-writing history in support of their false, primitive, superstitious belief system.  Where did you find this quote, Roxy, The 700 Club?  No wait, you’re and member of Christian Embassy and you got it from them!  Fess up, Rox.

Finally, you called me ignorant.  Let’s examine ignorance, Roxy.  You believe that there is an invisible God in the sky and an invisible demon under the ground; this God in the sky came to Earth, had sex with a woman who gave birth to a son, but remained a virgin; the resulting son is both the son of God and God at the same time; this son of God/God became a human who was murdered and then came back to life; the son of God/God did this because it somehow accomplished the task of taking for himself the sins of all human kind; but there’s a catch; in order for any human to benefit from this generous gesture, all that the son of God/God asks in return for taking your sins for himself is that you believe that all of this is true, and that you worship him, or her, or it; and if you only do these things, and nothing more, you will be forgiven of all of your sins and your soul will live forever, in paradise; but if you don’t, your soul is doomed to spend eternity under the ground with the bad demon. 

Roxy, I change my mind.  You’re not ignorant.  YOUR A PSYCHOPATH.  (Personally, I find it illogical that a good and omnipotent God would be so petty as to require that he/she/it be worshipped, or would care what humans believe as long as they are good).

Billy,

Really? Your comment about my mother was just pointing out the obvious?  You knew her well did you?  You’ve got it backwards, Bill.  Rather, I am the one who merely points out the obvious - you’re a hypocrite and you cannot make an argument without the aid of false premises and strawmen.  The proof is in this thread for anyone to read it.  I’m not going to repeat it.

No, you are the one who is full of . . . invective, Bill.  You are the one who is angry and full of hate - primitive, tribalistic, hate for those who are not part of your christian tribe.  Now, if you don’t like having your nose rubbed in the truth Bill, then I invite you to take your own advice and pedal your christian hate and ignorance somewhere else.

Louise:
Your “logic” is lost on me. What does the “Christian Embassy” have to do with kids? The American military clearly has no interest in harming children and does all that is possible to avoid it. Perhaps you should focus your concern on the terorists that deliberately target civilians with their devilish devices. Did you complain to Sadam Hussein when he was committing every atrocity in the book against innocents in Iraq? Try using common sense in place of your brainless sentimentality. By your actions you define yourself as a member of the Sheehan brigade, all emotion and no rationality

Lefty:
You evidence an amazing insight into Anne Coulter’s character. “She is a hateful, grotesque beast, a hyprocrite of the highest order and an inveterate liar.” Some psychiatrists (I think Dr. Freud was one) subscribe to the notion of “projection.” Some disturbed individuals get rid of unacceptable aspects of their personalities by unconsciously ascribing those aspects to others. Now, since I doubt you know Ann intimately, I suspect you may be doing a wee bit of projection. At any rate, it is consistent with your previous raving. Then there’s the other possibility. You are Ann Coulter. You yourself suggested, I think, that she is not necessarily as she appears, so she could be you, whatever your gender preference. But do the Christian thing and forgive me if I am mistaken.

Let me leave you with this reference. If you dare to link it, you may recognize someone you know.

townhall.com/columnists/.../2003/12/05/bush_derangement_syndrome

Lefty:
I agree you couldn’t have said it better than Rollins. His x-rated diatribe and your typical rants have much in common: personal attack, inflammatory rhetoric, unsubstantiated allegations, and paranoia. Your style works better in the back alley. Thoughtful people aren’t persuaded by it. So hit the road and take your baseball bat with you. You’ll need it in your next street brawl.

Lefty:
You have a remarkable obsession with the corruption of religion and the religious. Please enlighten me. Which human institutions do you find to be unsullied, in principle and practice? I ask because I, a sinful human being, do not wish to join them. I’m sure I would never live up to your exalted expectations and would quickly become the object of your righteous indignation. I look forward to your answer.
Sincerely,
Grasshopper

Lefty:
Thanks for the quotes, but I hardly think Bird (brain) Wilson is a better authority than Washington himself as to Washington’s Christianity. You apparently prefer to deny the truth rather than learn it, so have a happy (and ignorant) life.

Lefty:
What arguments did I make based on “myth’s fables and lies?” As for my ad hominem against you, look again. I simply pointed out the obvious, that you employ no rationality or argument. Your diatribes are full of invective and personal attack, which prove only that you are mean and full of hate. Peddle it somewhere else.

Some truth from Henry Rollins - I couldn’t have said it better myself: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7259b3d907

Louise,

You asked, “what is Christian Embassy?”

Maybe you missed my previous post:

“Did you see Tom Delay talk about how Christian Embassy has helped him “mature in his walk.” What walk is that, Tom, the walk of shame to and from your mug shot after being indicted for being the corrupt, crook that you are.  I guess that says everything we need to know about Christian Embassy - they helped Tom Delay get to where he is now, a disgraced, indicted, crook.”

Doesn’t that pretty much answer your question? In my mind there’s a consistency between the corruption of religion and the self righteousness of those who hold themselves out as religious.  The self righteousness is disingenuous cover for the corruption.

Roxy,

Since you like to post quotes, here are some quotes for you:

Letter from Pres. Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut, in response to their letter concerning their freedom to practice their religion:

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.”

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

Quotes of James Madison, primary author of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights (with the counsel of T. Jefferson):

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect.” (James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774).

“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?” (James Madison, “A Memorial and Remonstrance,” addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785).

“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.” (James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822).

“Bird Wilson, Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, was one of the first openly to challenge in public the pietistic picture of Washington that was being built up by [Mason Locke] Weems and his followers. In a sermon delivered in October, 1831, which attracted wide attention when it was reported in the Albany Daily Advertiser, Wilson stated flatly that “among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than unitarianism.” Washington, he went on to say, was a great and good man, but he was not a professor of religion; he was really a typical eighteenth-century Deist, not a Christian, in his religious outlook.” (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15.)

Billy,

You sound like a fine, conservative, republican christian.  First, you are a hypocrite - you chastise me for ad hominem attacks and then proceed to do the same.  Further, like the typical conservative, republican, christian that you are, you cannot seem to make an argument without the use of false premises and strawmen.  (I’m not going to re-type my words and yours here.  Anyone can go back and re-read our respective posts to confirm that you basically re-wrote my argument for me and then proceeded to respond to the arguement that you manufactured for me).  My arguments are based on reality, Billy.  Your arguments are, like your religion, based on myths, fables and lies.  I’ve yet to met a christian that I didn’t think was a superstitious fool, and you are no exception.

As for my momma, she taught me the truth.  Clearly, your mamma lied to you, and you seem quite happy to continue the family tradition.

As for Anne Coulter, yes, she looks like a man.  And yes, she “espouses conservatism [sic]principles.”  (Your grammar complements my spelling).  She is a hateful, grotesque, beast, a hypocrite of the highest order and an inveterate liar.  Agreed!  These are indeed conservative principals all.  No one of any good judgment or decency could possibly take anything she says seriously, except in self defense, any more than the blatherings of other conservative clowns like Rush Lymbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael “Savage” Weiner, or Bill O’Reilly, each equally hateful, monumental hypocrites and inveterate liars.

Joe S.
Jesus wouldn’t nuke anyone. That’s why we have governments, to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. Jesus didn’t shoot Hitler or arrest Sadam Hussein or execute Jeffrey Dahmer. Does that mean they didn’t deserve what they got? God is a God of justice as well as of love and mercy. For the time being, He administers justice through human institutions, imperfect though they may be. Otherwise, civilization would be impossible. As the time came for Japan, it may come again for any state that threatens this great nation. Get over it.

Who would Jesus nuke?

Lefty:
Your “reason, rationality and logic” are, like your spelling, seriously deficient. You have offered nothing remotely resembling reason or logic in your posts. What you have offered is invective of the sort one finds in ample supply on any playground. You would do us all a favor if you restricted your name calling to that venue. Meantime, get some anger management therapy. You are a discredit to your religion of liberalism.

The Christian Embassy.
Is that where we find the self-appointed ambassadors for Christ? Is that where these mere mortals decide what Christ really meant when he said,

“But whosoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
Matthew 18:6

“Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.”
Matthew 18:14

Do they send a team of ambassadors about examining the dead children in Iraq and Afghanistan (not to mention Palestine and Israel) to see if they believed in the “right” God? Who among them is so righteous they can look on the face of a dead or damaged child and say they did not believe? Seems to me a truly righteous man would look on these children and weep, then beg forgiveness.

What is the Christian Embassy?

If we pay attention we can see very clearly ...
By their actions they define themselves.

The great untold story on the Iraq War is where are Bush’s Christian Crusaders. Their absence in Iraq is a continuing black mark on neo-con service to the country, an Evangelistas nightmare. More Evangelicals are in the closet than uniform. It’s is a story best left in the closet, untold.

The Christian Right is an apocalyptic death cult which is in control of the government.  Bush thinks he is the guy in Revelations, God’s right hand man, who is getting his orders straight from God. That is why Bush is so rigid in his thinking.  He is being commanded by God.

He just happens to have control of 10,000 hydrogen bombs. 

Sleep well.

Lefty and FatSean:
Even if your mamas didn’t teach you manners, you should try learning some logic. There are many kinds of logical fallacies. One of the most common is the ad hominem fallacy. It goes like this. Lefty agrees with FatSean. FatSean is illogical. Therefore, Lefty is discredited. Now, the fact that Ann Coulter looks like a man and espouses conservatism principles does not discredit conservative principles. Rather, the one that makes that argument is discredited. So, please, knock if off.

Lefty:
I’m glad you asked:
1. When did Washington convert? I presume before his death.  Here is an excerpt from his prayer book in his own handwriting: “I beseech thee, my sins, remove them…and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ…to the saving of my soul in the day of the Lord Jesus.” If you need more proof of his Christian faith, I have it.

2. Why would [ranting] want a [ranting] Christian [ranting] to be in the military, much less hold a position of authority? Gen. Washington in his first general order to his troops called on “Every officer and man…to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.” Maybe the General knew something you don’t about fighting a war.

3. Your rant about Jones, et al merely provides evidence for the Judeo-Christian notion of the fallen nature of man [kind]. Yes, every single Christian on earth is flawed, sinful, if you will. The interesting thing I notice about leftists is that they are quite capable of overlooking flaws in their own character, so long as their thinking is PC. Bill Clinton is the perfect example. Christ requires that we follow his example. You spout your liberal pap, but you are clay, my friend, as much in need of redemption as any of the people you include in your list of shame. Your overheated rhetoric betrays you.

Saul:
I am truly discomfited by your intimate knowledge of “great Christians.” You are quite right. “They” are a sorry lot. I’m sure you will find a much nobler sort in other parts of the world. In many places, neither men nor women are smart enough to vote (apparently); hence, no discrimination. There are places where (it is rumored) that some blacks think whites are devils and should be exterminated. That is surely an improvement over the sort of racial discrimination to which you alluded. It is true that Washington was a slave owner, so it follows logically that all Christians continue to advocate slavery, even 200 years later. I suspect William Wilberforce is unjustly credited with being both a Christian and an anti-slavery campaigner of the nineteenth century. As for civil rights, we know all nations (except for those of the “Christian” sort) provide the ultimate environment for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To suggest that it is otherwise in North Korea, Russia, or Cuba (as some dare to do) is simply outrageous. I am surprised that you yourself have not emigrated to one of those enlightened countries, so as to avoid contamination by exposure to us Christians. As for Mr. Lee, please excuse me for mentioning him. I am sure you are superior in every respect. Although Lee was one of the first 29 individuals selected in 1900 for the Hall of Fame of Great Americans, it is undoubtedly nothing more than a “racist/christo/fascist” front group. I could go on but you have effectively demolished Christendom with your examples of its imperfections. Suffice it to say that the trouble with Christianity is Christians. I look forward to the Brave New World that you envision where human (Christian) foibles are forever banished. Please write when you get there.
Yours truly,
Roxy

Lefty:
‘Tis a novel idea that you have of the intent of the First Amendment. Have you thought of submitting your name to the Senate Judiciary Committee? We need free thinkers such as your self on the federal bench. Yes, we need minds unspoiled by logic or common sense, minds like those that found a right to privacy and abortion by reference to penumbras of Blackmum’s entrails and other assorted mumbo jumbo.

When the First Amendment says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, it surely had its own prerogatives in mind. All our previous history shows that our founders were attempting to protect the King from being corrupted by such notions as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In fact, the signers of the Declaration of Independence pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor just to guarantee the continuation of the King’s privileges. There is surely no reason to think that the Constitution would protect the citizenry against abuse by the government. Why, in all previous history, there is hardly any instance of governmental abuse of individual freedom.

Yes, I’m sure you’re right. The government must be protected from the citizenry by all means, especially from the religious nuts, like Washington, those deluded Adams brothers, and their ilk. It was that rascal John who is quoted as having said that “it is religion and morality alone, which establish the principles upon which freedom can surely stand.” He even had the gall to say, “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion…Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”  I for one am truly happy that, as you so aptly put it, Lefty, “we have the government to protect us from the corrupting force of religion.”  Thank you for your keen analysis, and I hope to see you in court soon.

Better yet, Saudi Arabia!

If I want religion in my politics, I’ll move to Iran, I suggest they do they same.

Roxy

You forget some other things about great Christians:

1. They didn’t think women were smart enough to vote
2. They thought blacks were only a tenth of a white man
3. They had no problem with slavery
4. They had a problem with Civil Rights Legislation and stood in doorways waving their Bibles to protest
integration.
5. Lee is only a great man to racist/christo/fascists
6. They hung people without a trial.
7. They wrote restrictive covenant deeds which precluded non whites and Non Christians from owning property

For why Christians don’t know that they have been lied to go to http://www.religionquestioned.com

Hey Roxy,

When did Washington convert?  After he died!  As for men of character, can I include fine Christians like Jim Jones, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker (lotsa Jim’s in this bunch, no), Ernest Angely, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton, Peter Popoff, Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, Tom Delay, Ted Haggard, and about a half million Catholic preists who fornicate with teenage boys?  Uh, Catholics are Christians, right Roxy!

Why the hell would any rational human being want an irrational, primative, ignorant, superstitious, tribalistic, Christian who worships a false God, to be in the military, much less hold a position of authority.

Step away from the Cool-Aide, Roxy!

Yes Fatsean,

Manne . . . er, Anne Coulter does look like a product of gender reassignment, doesn’t . . . er, she.  My God, she’s got the biggest Adams apple I’ve seen since Paul Robeson!

Yes Amos, the comparison of liberalism to Islamic fundimentalism does strike me as odd.  What I find completely normal is the comparison Christian fundimentalism and Islamic fundimentalism.  They are one and the same.  They deserve each other. 

Liberals, unlike conservatives, Christian and Muslim fundimentalists, and other weak, scared, superstitious, ignorant, hypocritical cowards, are capable of reason, rationality and logic.

Too bad Ann Coulter exposed her radical Chister leanings when she advocated conqouring Iraq and converting them to Christianity.

Also, she’s a man.

Mad as Hell:
I agree. Let’s get rid of all Christians in the military. And let’s get rid of George Washington too. He was a Christian, you know, and made a shambles of the Revolutionary War. Why, without his prayers and Bible thumping, we might have licked those lousy British interlopers. We definitely don’t want a loser like him being used an example of a real fighting man. Same goes for Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson and Theodore Roosevelt, Christians all. No, sir, we don’t want a man of principle and character in the military. What we really need is someone like Bill Clinton, someone who doesn’t take this religion stuff seriously, someone who can thump his Bible on Sunday and bang Jennifer Flowers on Monday, someone who can fight terrorists on Tuesday and cut and run on Wednesday. Yes, by all means, get rid of those Christians. They’ll eventually stand for some silly moral principle and we all know how retro that is. How quaint that anyone still believes in morality. It’s all relative, you know.

Gandersen:
Does it strike you as odd the similarities between radical Islam and radical liberalism? Check out “Godless: The Church of Liberalism” by Ann Coulter. Naaah, you wouldn’t do that, would you?

Witkacy:
Assume for the sake of argument that these horrid “evangelical crusades” actually are effective in treating drug addiction or in prisoner rehabilitation. Would you still object to them? Or would you prefer to pay the other way, that is, for the social consequences of addiction and crime? What if your evangelical crusades are the only intervention that is effective? I suspect you would whine in any case, but correct me if I am wrong.
Yours truly,
Amos

But has anyone been reading the NYTimes series on federally-funded faith-based social & law-enforcement initiatives? Hundreds of millions of taxpayers’ $$$ are lavished on evangelical crusades disguised as drug treatment programs, prisoner outreach, education, etc…They’ve been plugged into these contracts, in a sort of Holy Halliburton kind of way…

BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Did you see Tom Delay talk about how Christian Embassy has helped him “mature in his walk.” What walk is that, Tom, the walk of shame to and from your mug shot after being indicted for being the corrupt, crook that you are.  I guess that says everything we need to know about Christian Embassy - they helped Tom Delay get to where he is now, a disgraced, indicted, crook.

Bert,

Religion has ALWAYS been big business. The 1st Amendment wasn’t intended to protect religion from government, but rather, to protect government from the corrpting force of religion.

it only means that nuke world war 3 is coming sooner than expected.religions especially judeo christianity islam is a disease and truth is the only cure.

http://www.evilbible.com

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com

http://www.godisimaginary.com

http://www.landoverbaptist.com

http://www.infidels.com

“Oh me, oh my, the sky is falling,” said Chicken Little.

Sadly, anyone who’s been paying attention knows that this is nothing new. There have been stories in the news for more than a year now concerning claims of an evangelical Christian bias at the Air Force Academy. Curtis Weinstein, a cadet at the academy, claims to have been the target of anti-Semitic slurs from his fellow cadets—and cadets who decline to attend chapel after dinner are reportedly marched back to their dorms in what is referred to as the “heathen flight”. Sadly, however, the Christian bias apparently isn’t limited to the student body—there are members of the staff who, instead of checking it, appear to be encouraging it. According to Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, it has been alleged that evangelical Christian cadets receive preferential treatment such as receiving permission to go off-campus to attend religious meetings while cadets of other or no faith are denied the same privilege. Capt. Melinda Morton, a former chaplain of the school, alleges that the reason why she was dismissed from her post as chaplain in 2005 (although she remained on staff at the school) was because she chose to speak out publicly against what she perceived as strident proselytizing by members of both the staff and the student body at the academy.

Cashier these christo-fascist bastards OUT OF OUR MILITARY!  And toss the neo-nazis with them!

THEY CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO UPHOLD THEIR OATH TO DEFEND THE US CONSTITUTION!

I get the feeling that these people are sincere, and oh it scares me.  If they believe what they say they must be mad.  They would have to compromise those beliefs every hour of every day.  Christians can’t murder and loot. just like fish can’t fly.  Some of them, certainly DeLay, are simply frauds who found a sucker voting base.  Others appear to have drunk the Kool-Aid.

his absolutely should be investigated, explored and held up in the light of day to be the exact example of what our ‘apparent’ enemies are doing to us.

One of the (many) most dreadful things this present Administration has done, is to apparently disallow them to realise the ‘other’ are EXACTLY the same as US (or what the Bush Admin is doing in our name)

NOT IN MY NAME.

This is very, very scary.  Do these people use logic in their decision making?  Or do they just at times “turn it over to God?”

Will

The administration and various other government organizaitons including the Green Zone in Iraq are functioning as a faith based government. I can’t say how they’re doing in the faith department, but they know nothing about running our government. I sometimes think we’re all part of a huge political experiment and it’s not working.

Wow!
That is some scary video.

Does it not strike anyone as odd the similarities between radical Islam and radical Christianity?

Both sides see blending politics and war with god to justify what they are doing.  “If god is on our side we must be right”

And who are these people that meet regularly to influence our leaders(what is their political agenda, what is their background, who do they really represent???)  To me they it appears they are using god to get close to powerful and influential people in our government(sounds like they are just lobbyists)

The abuse of Religion will be the “undoing” of this fine nation. 

Sincerely,

Proud to be an American, but lately, sad and embarrassed.

Speaking as a godless heathen nonbeliever, and a former servicemember, I hold the view that the more our services invest their time in doing what they do, training to kill people and break things, and less time on bended knee reading adult fairy tales, the better they’ll be at their job. I’m a full-fledged skeptic of the capacity of organized religion of any faith, sect, branch, denomination, whathaveyou, to act in a way that is counter to their economic and political interests. Yes, economic interests. Religion has become Big Business. McJesus, Salvation, Inc., call it what you will, Heebs R Us, Allah, International, pick the flavor of your choosing, it all boils down to one thing, gain political power by recruiting more followers, gain more money by picking their pockets artfully, and then tell the Mother Of All B.S. stories once a week in front of a packed house. Reference Jim Bakker, Robert Tilton, Oral Roberts, James Dobson, and of course all the warring that’s been going on in the middle east for decades, and even today. Religion is just a sophisticated way of messing with peoples’ heads, these people need to back away from the liquefied, sanctified cherry beverage base powder, there, and come up with better ways of addressing the spiritual needs of servicemembers, inluding keeping the prosyletization off post, maybe over next to the used car dealers, the payday check lenders, massage parlors, and the rest of their spiritual ilk…

I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns… BABYLON THE GREAT… drunken with the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus… kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies… come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Revelation 17,18

Religion in bed with the government to plunder nations in God’s name?