Comment #33716 by helorat on 10/26 at 5:19 am

TRANSLATION:  Four year old with fingers in ears, yelling blah, blah, blah….

Tick tock, tick tock. Fortunately, even though you will cry and whine that the dems have lost another one of your ignorant wars, sanity will be restored eventually to our govt. with at least one house going dem. Eventually even the most nationalistic idiots come to the realization that neocons can’t govern.

RE: Comment #33076 by glad yer irrelevant on 10/24 at 3:09 pm

gyi: “Ha, our asses are getting kicked. Deal with it.”

If this is “getting our asses kicked” what do you call the loss of the Philippines in 1941, followed by the Bataan death march, or 1000 dead in 76 hours of combat in one battle on an island far smaller then Manhattan, or a half million dead in less then 4 years and leaving more people under murdering dictators when we were done then when we started? Are you terminally ignorant, brainless, or just brain dead?

gyi: “Who has control of all branches of our government?”

If this is true I guess I am not quite that irrelevant am I. Perhaps it is you who are irrelevant?

ghi: “Who won’t leave? Who won’t quit?”

Yup, thatÂ’s me.  You got one right anyway. Interesting you take such great pride in running away and quitting it must be sad and embarrassing being you. I just cannot even imagine it.

ghi: “Who won’t change?”

You could not ID change thru that smoke filled haze of your sixties defeatist mentality if you were covered in 200 pounds of pennies.

ghi: “Who calls the majority of Americans traitors for disagreeing?”

Not the majority, the loudest whiners and the historically and militarily ignorant; and I do not call them traitors for disagreeing, I call them traitors for giving aid and comfort to the enemy that is kinda the definition of traitor after all
.
ghi: “Who owns it? YOU”

Does that mean that I can tell you it is none of your business then?
ghi: “Who lost it? YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU…..”

Gee, not only a defeatist, but an emphatic one, who is severely premature too.  I suspect that this is not an uncommon problem with you. Do you ejaculate like this often? Is the problem physiological or psychological, or both? Next I suppose you are going to tell me Clinton had found it right?
Well ghi, the high pitched whining, crying and squealing seems to be originating at your end. And it is not my party, the only truly good reason to vote for Republicans, is democrats. Your party practically demands I vote Republican, with its advocacy for disarming law abiding Americans and its ardent support for their new religion of Secular Socialism, (plus that is the form of government we are Constitutionally guaranteed, so they have a much more palatable label). Knock yourself out with the name calling. It is good that you are easily amused. I fought for your right to be to be loud mouthed and ignorant. I have no concerns about my physical or moral courage, or my IQ.

Damned straight my but is tight, and if you think that is bad, you must be one of those aficionados of bone dancing with mister sphincter. HmmmÂ… might explain those other problems you have. Anybody ever accused you of being a bundle of sticks?

Helorat:  “Their only hope is to have the American left give them a victory as they gave the communists in 1975.”

Ha, our asses are getting kicked. Deal with it.

Who has control of all branches of our government? YOU

Who won’t leave? YOU

Who won’t change? YOU

Who calls the majority of Americans traitors for disagreeing? YOU

Who owns it? YOU

Who lost it? YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU…..

Bitch and cry all you want, pussbag. You’ve put your party above the country. Gee what’s that make YOU? And your party has pissed it down their leg. It’s overflowing with liars and incompetents. And you can’t change it cuz THAT’S A FACT. You can’t deal with it cuz YOU’RE A GUTLESS IDIOT. Yeah, name calling is fun, especially when it’s about you and it’s ALL TRUE.

Stick that up your incredibly tight ass and shhhhmoke it.

Leona, either we kill enough radicals so they do not cow and control the moderates or we are doomed. Their stated goal (like Hitler, like the communists) is world domination; in their case, by their brand of radical Islam. We must eventually learn to listen to what these people say. They wish to annihilate us. I prefer to keep them in the meat grinder of Iraq. By any historical measure of combat we are winning and the human cost to us has been relatively light. They are losing there, they know it, and they say it to each other. Their only hope is to have the American left give them a victory as they gave the communists in 1975. We must let the military do this while it is still “relatively cheap,” but people like you will forever keep us from the easy victories with your hopes of diplomacy working until we have to fight the hard bloody battles from a position of inferiority. WWII cost us a half million and the stakes are just as high now. It is the old pay now or pay much higher later. The only way we can lose is to beat ourselves. Even the darling of the left, Thomas Friedman, acknowledges they are playing you like a fiddle.

Diplomacy? I don’t think so. But sending soldiers into a situation where they are simply terrorist targets trying to hold down undefendable positions is pointless. Their lives have to mean more than simply providing time for us to come up with another plan. They’re fighting an ideology we don’t understand. The Iraqis hate the terrorists until they see us shoot one and then they switch sides. That’s incomprehensible but true.

The Judeo-Christian world has caused this. There were two sides of the family of Abraham. We support the “chosen” and not the red-headed step child. The Jews shunned their own historical brothers and now we support the Jews. The Islamic faith is based on getting their share of the “family inheritence.” The Jews have historically been shunned and then they shunned their own. The Jews tried to keep everyone else out of their biblical inheritence. That’s why there are any Christians at all. God envy and that’s what we’re fighting against. That’s a lot different than WWII and fighting men who wanted to “be God.”

I don’t believe you can kill enough Muslims to end their opposition and change them into moderates.

RE: Comment #29817 by Leona S on 10/19 at 2:48 pm All officers are “selected by the President”, on the recommendation of other officers. Zinni has always been a “politician (& diplomat)” that is what was perceived to be “needed” there at the time, not a strategist. What is problematic is Carter, Clinton and GoreÂ’s comments on foreign soil. Previous PresidentÂ’s have had the class to shut up when they left office. Carter has become a dictator loving traitor, and Clinton is dead set on reoccupying the White House as kingmaker. (And Gore is just a plain old real live crackpot.)  You have missed something. Active and retired military officers voiced their opinion with their feet during the Clinton administration, and did comment in a public forum. The media did not report it well (surprise) and it was done in a manner as to not impugn our country on the world stage. I have no fear of a Bush “dictatorship” as you seem to. I fear the government that fears my gunsÂ… as the Clinton administration did.

RE: Comment #29759 by Hemi on 10/19 at 11:33 am Neville, you used the ridiculous line “a leader for peace in our time”, you asked to be associated with the political ideology of spineless appeasement.

I do not have to “research” Zinni,  he does have knowledge in this region, but that does not make his ideas the right way to do things. What is going on there is a process in work. You want it done NOW with small cost, like most “30 minute ‘americans’”. You seek to fulfill “his prophesy”. That makes no sense. Your saying “What does make sense is that if we are still at war in Iraq in 2007, the president will seek to stay on for a third term to Â’complete the mission,’” makes even less sense!

I do not infer that the strategies we use today should be based on what was necessary in WWII. You have no knowledge of strategies. I point out you your lack of perspective in understanding reality and the true costs of war and its progress. And I point out the cost of placing your “hope” in diplomacy with EVIL. You have no backbone, you have no willingness for sacrifice. You expect freedom to be maintained cheaply and easily. You fail to understand we are in a battle for our civilization and are unwilling to fight. Learn about Islam, then quote Santayana.

No I do not hold “this same hope” because people like you will forever keep us from the easy victories with your hopes of diplomacy working until people like me, and your great uncles, have to fight the hard bloody battles from a position of inferiority.

DonÂ’t rest on your great unclesÂ’ laurels, and feign insult based on their service, tell me what you are doing, besides undermining the efforts of our military, to defend your freedom to blather.

Out of as you say “5000-7000 active and retired flag officers” this dissenting voice was from the retired officer selected by the president. YOU are in a fantasy world if you don’t see this as problematic. Unless I’ve missed something, active and retired military officers voicing any opinion in a public forum is rare. So, if a few dare to speak up after seeing the country on the wrong course it says volumes. Our country has dealt with dictators as far back as anyone can remember and nothing short of the US becoming “dictator to the world” will change that in the near future. That’s the real danger. We becoming them or something worse.

Glad to hear you have researched and found General Zinni to be a credible authority on the conflict in this region. Having found what Zinni envisioned was “true” we continue down the “road to perdition.” This makes no sense. What does make sense is that if we are still at war in Iraq in 2007, the president will seek to stay on for a third term to “complete the mission.” But inferring that the strategies we use today should be based on what was necessary in WWII is naive to say the least. Our struggles in the jungles of Vietnam are example enough. I donÂ’t think itÂ’s necessary to remind you of individual battles or quotes, youÂ’ll find examples to the contrary and weÂ’ll be back at square one. I am reminded of the quote from philosopher George Santayana: “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” One would hope that the bloodbaths endured by our service men and women in wars past were not simply foreshadowing and contracting of bloodbaths ad infinitum. Do you hold this same hope?

I had three great uncles who survived combat in the Philippines, The Battle of the Bulge and fighting RommelÂ’s Panzers in North Africa respectively. To infer that I, by your having casually associated me with any existent or imaginary political ideology, have denigrated anyone’s service in the armed forces of the United States of America by simply stating my personal opinion on this topic, is an insult and I leave you to your “bully” pulpit.

Neville (Comment #29571 by Hemi on 10/18 at 4:03 pm), with a pool of roughly 5000-7000 active and retired flag officers, a dozen disagreeing is a blip. And just like intel predictions, and horoscopes you can always find “true” ones after the fact. If you want to read a balanced account try INSIDE CENTCOM by Mike Delong, it cuts both ways and Delong is one of the straightest shooters around. While you are at it see what Zinni says about him in the forward. But I am sure you are too narrow minded and rooted in your fantasy world to bother. Too bad you SS (Secular Socialist) Dems don’t actually respect the military you selectively quote when you want. You root for America’s defeat and denigrate the military except when you want to use us to bash someone else.

I have a prediction for you. I predict October will be one of the bloodiest months of the Iraq War. Al Qaeda will be putting max effort into influencing the US election to get their allies (SS Dems) elected.

Your historical perspective is non-existent. What would you call the Japanese conquest of the Philippines, the Bataan Death March, Guadalcanal, Tarawa (1000 dead Marines in 76 hours), Iwo Jima, Okinawa, The Battle of the Bulge. WWII, half a million dead, and when we are done, more of the world under brutal murdering socialist dictators then when we started. Oh but thatÂ’s right, you guys are on the side of those socialist dictators, they are your heroes.

Try doing something besides watching 30 minute cartoons with 30 minute solutions.

Boy does this site have a lot of references to comedians.Colbert, Stewart, all the dimlibs pundits are well,comedians.You stupid DIMlibs,realize youre being lied to,brainwashed, and DUMBED DOWN.All of this sites’rhetoric is not to be taken seriously,as even apparently the owners of this site can attest to.What MORONS!Helorat quoted about 900 pages of facts,NONE of you libs did anything but call names and insult and as usual blow the big liberal megaphone.DEATH TO THE TRAITOROUS LIBERALS!Id like to treat you all like a bunch of frikkin “fetuses"as you morally devoid and sick people do to them!What MORONS!communists!

“‘This is in fact the wrong war at the wrong time,’” said Retired Marine General (four-star) Anthony Zinni formerly President BushÂ’s special envoy to the Middle East peace talks.

This general served as the President’s peace envoy to the Middle East through May of 2003. He expressed his reservations about the war at that time and he was relieved of his position.  One example of how anyone with experience, brains and conscience is long gone from the process.

Back in 2003 Zinni said: “‘If we think there is a fast solution to changing the government of Iraq, then we don’t understand history, the nature of the country, the divisions, or the underneath suppressed passions that could rise up. God help us if we think this transition will occur easily.

‘The attempts I’ve seen to install democracy in short periods of time where there is no history and no roots have failed. Take it back to Somalia and other places where we’ve tried. It’s not an easy form of governance to put in place and to be understood.’”

No shit general! Prophetic to say the least.

The spineless State Department couldn’t separate themselves from the sense this man was making fast enough. They denigrated this manÂ’s service. Three years ago General Zinni had a clear picture of what would happen and he was belittled and orphaned by this administration. He was hand picked for his insight and made the right call. It just wasnÂ’t what they were selling. What a shame. I’ll stand with the former general over the drunken Yale graduate any time. Alcohol must have pickled BushÂ’s brain.

“He” enlisted, trusting that “his” life wouldnÂ’t be spent in vane. “He” was confident that men with insight, like Zinni, would be calling the life and death shots. The current commanders are afraid to speak up. They donÂ’t want to be removed too and lose all control to the Washington whacko. Sure “he” volunteered; “he” didn’t know the fiasco “heÂ’d” be chaperoning.  IF “he” goes back, “God bless him.”  That would be redundant though!

Mothers can deal with their wombs and their conscience.  IÂ’ll side with Laura Bush and her Today Show quote on Roe vs. Wade: “No, I don’t think it should be overturned.”  She should be careful or they will “Zinni” her!

Q: What do you call a NEOCON abortion?

A: Iraq!

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha!

Neville, sorry, Hemi, wake up! If “he” was sent to Iraq, “he” was a volunteer. And those who have been to Iraq, often ask to go back, because they know they are doing good and what is right. Everyone “wants peace” particularly those who have seen war. The prospective mother is the only one with the choice in the abortion, not the “abortee”. Go talk peace with the Islamic Fascists or Dictator “Mentally Ill”. You display the logic, and laugh the laugh, of the delusional.

Boy you are whacked!

“CHRISTIAN NEOCON” (praying): God, why donÂ’t you send us a leader for peace in our time?!

GOD (answering): I did. You sent him to die in Iraq!

Bwaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

A NEOCON praying, that’s a good one!
I’m surprised that spell check let me type CHRISTIAN and NEOCON in the same sentence without finding fault!
Bwaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Hey Al, I missed ya.

Looks like you missed the lesson on projection.

Al says:  “i left this burg of traitorous fools long ago,you should too.what incredible liars!liars/liberals-they actually lie to themselves!amazing…but scary,too.”

“psychological projection” is a defense mechanism in which one attributes (or “projects”) to others, oneÂ’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them.

I embrace your hate, Al, but by reading this maybe just a bit will sink in and thus, in my own way I’m making the world better a better place for those who have to talk to you in the future. NAW, who am I kidding?

Helorat,

Interesting how you avoided any reference to Bush and Cheney’s lies. You say, “Try presenting one just one (example of Bush Co. lying), with a verifiable source.”

But, when presented with not one but two, suddenly we hear more of your diatribes about guns, Clinton and now even Reid, AIDS and Stalin. You actively avoid facing facts because to face them your entire “belief” structure will come crubbling down. Bummer, LOL.

All you are doing is talking in circles and whacking your strawmen. Please tell me you have something more than the circular ravings of a right wing lemming to challenge the indisputable evidence of just one of Bush and Cheney’s lies.

“CHRISTIAN LIBERAL” (praying): God, why don’t you send us a cure for AIDS?!

GOD (answering): I did. You aborted it!

Are YOU listening?

Just who is it that decides who lives and who dies?

Who dehumanizes a helpless group and expects no fallout to society.

Who guards their money with guns then advertises “GUN FREE ZONE” in front of their children’s schools and expects the crazies not to show up. And then when they do, they are given even free advertising to ensure their notoriety, their place in history and set an example for other crazies. What more could they ask for?

Who would hang that same sign in their front yards, and then expect the burglars to show up?

In this country Progressive Liberal = Hypocrisy not by personal choice, but by avowed public policy.

helorat,
i left this burg of traitorous fools long ago,you should too.what incredible liars!liars/liberals-they actually lie to themselves!amazing…but scary,too.

RE: Comment #28902 by glad not to be ANYTHING like you. How many people listened to Bill ClintonÂ’s interview with Chris Wallace during which he repeatedly stated he ordered the assassination of UBL. IsnÂ’t that illegal? OK for him, right? No Geneva Convention or moral high ground requirements for him, right? ThatÂ’s what I thought. Oil companies make 10% profit! Evil! Evil! Bad! Bad! Harry Reid makes 300% and does not follow ethics rules, and no one bats an eyelash. It is selfish to want people to have the right to defend themselves? Virtually school shooting deaths were not caused by too many guns, but by one too few in the right place at the right time. I have all I want and far more then I need, when it comes to guns. Ok, well maybe not really all I want, but I am not concerned about buying them or anybody trying to take them away. Get off your high horses of hypocrisy. Right and wrong and what is good for the country is irrelevant to SS Libs. Power is what you want and power is all you care about. You proved that when Senate Dems gave Clinton as good a vote as Stalin ever got from the Politburo during his trial in the Senate. Not one man with a conscience among them, or you. And I am damned glad not to be like you.

Hmmm, sorry, Bush and Cheney both lied to the American people. Your 10,000 word ramblings doesn’t change that FACT one little bit. And your position on guns is selfish, ignorant and dangerous. We’ll see who are the traitors soon enough. Just don’t hurt any children when you snap and go on your rampage against the evil liberals.

gladrob,
Since you have been such a cooperative foil, I will accede to your request Comment #28635 by gladrob on 10/13 at 11:31 am (to a limited extent), temporarily at least, I will address your other BS later. I will address the issues of your alleged Cheney/Bush “lies”. I will do this because you have made it easy, as I expected you would. I have already addressed the issues and I can merely cut and paste most of it, I have a lot of material and experience, and I am interested to see if the post will occur on Sunday.

First, we are a republic not a democracy (the more democratic we get, the less American we become), and it is the Constitution that is the foundation of the American Republic! Would that you gave so much weight to that Creator part of the DoI; but as usual it is the SS who are the selective readers.

Second, were you lying when you said the Constitution said “all men are created equal”, no I donÂ’t think so (showing yourself as a near terminally ignorant pissant typical SS (Secular Socialist) American college student maybe, but a liar, not that time [other times, but not that time]); was Roosevelt a liar when he told reporters the Doolittle raiders (remember that one way near suicide mission conducted for propaganda purposes; I can only imagine what you and your buds would have said if Bush had done something similar)  came from Shangri-La? I think not.

As an aside, I notice with interest how you rely on a comedy site for your factual information, very typical of a sycophant of the unserious party.

First, Clinton is not just a proven liar, he is guilty of perjury. If I remember correctly, he has been disbarred. No body is perfect, but he was not just hiding something from his wife and family, he was committing perjury in the course of a Civil Suit. I also seem to recall he had recently signed an order modifying the UCMJ defining a sex act for prosecution of military members that said what he did was sex while he was saying publicly it was not. If you think that is purely personal then I guarantee you were not in the military when it happened. When that worthless sleazeball (I had professional acquaintances with access to his Whitehouse, and he and the former first slut “loathed” the military) was reelected, that was the day I decided I would not stay in the military longer then what was required to collect a retirement, because although I do not feel I have the right to pick my CinC, I sure as hell was not going to risk my life, or even a hangnail, for the idiot dirtbags that reelected him. As I said before, 911 occurred in 1993, Clinton had means and authority to act for years and did nothing worthwhile for years. Clinton lied about that and people died. And the left wing media covered for him. Remember all the split polls after the Monica affair… How do you rate Clinton personally v job performance? Nah, you’re probably to young.

Second, there was a link between Iraq and al Qaeda found by the 911 commission. They said they could not find a certain operational link between Iraq and al Qaeda or a link between the 911 attacks and Iraq. The headline on the NYT is a lie, and a malicious one.  ClintonÂ’s own state department released this: “In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the Government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq,” the indictment said. http://usinfo.state.gov/is/Archive_Index/Bin_Laden_Atef_Indicted_in_U.S._Federal_Court_for_African_Bombings.html “This passage led Clarke, who for years had read intelligence reports on Iraqi Sudanese cooperation on chemical weapons, to speculate to Berger that a large Iraqi presence at chemical facilities in Khartoum was “probably a direct result of the Iraq­Al Qida agreement.” Clarke added that VX precursor traces found near al Shifa were the “exact formula used by Iraq.”” Page 128; 911 commission report. All the members of the Clinton administration have refused to repudiate this information as it remains their justification for the al Shifa attack. In 2001, with Bin Ladin’s help they re formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy Page 61; 911 commission report. Numerous documents captured after the fall of Iraq and after the publishing of the 911 commission report confirm this. Perhaps you have the training records from Salman Pak, or maybe you were there for years and can certify no al Qaeda were trained there, but some Clinonistas still believe there was a connection (http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock040303.asp ).

When Bozo the clown flashes “we do not believe such a meeting occurred” - I do not believe the 911 commission report said that. Pending a reference, it appears the evidence indicates Bozo is the liar, and a more egregious one, in as much as he was not speaking extemporaneously, as Cheney was. The closest thing I can find the report saying is “The available evidence does not support the original Czech report of an Atta-Ani meeting” on Page 229. Can you point out where in the report I can find Bozo’s quote?

My family began recording the news when I was deployed for the war in Iraq (Part I [90-91]) and I found looking at the old news interesting, and began randomly recording it myself. I do so much more regularly now with the advent of DVD recorders, and I could find “lies” like those for half Dems in the congress.  Numerous mainstream media acknowledged the link prior to the 2000 elections, when massive amnesia suddenly struck. But I can still lay my hands easily on an MP3 of an ABC report from 1999 that is quite certain there was an operational linkage and alliance.

Saddam was an ally of Islamic terrorists, and financed Islamic terrorists, he gave aid and comfort to terrorists including al Qaeda; there is no doubt a connection between them.

Regarding your second clip from Bozo, wiretapping without a warrant, as I pointed out already on this site, for intelligence gathering, as the primary purpose, may be used to convict enemy agents. It is not possible to determine what question is being asked, and what he is referring to. I have not heard any accusations of purely internal “wiretaps” without a court order, but if there have been, the supreme court has already ruled them legal (US vs Truong [I think]) under those circumstances. If you are trying to say the NSA intercept of cross border calls makes this a lie, they are not “wiretaps” per say, and regardless in either circumstance it is ludicrous to expect the President to reveal how we are fighting a war during a time of war. In addition to mirandizing terrorists, do you want us to include them in the NSA, NSC, and JCS meetings?

Your trying to Plame Cheney, and Bush I guess, just like Libby was Plamed, because he canÂ’t remember exactly what he said during an interview and answers extemporaneously. ItÂ’s a gotcha. Having been in the circumstances of hosting a radio call in show (as a fill in)  and arguing with another host (SS) of the same show we both agreed that an extemporaneous incorrect answer, misstatement, or failure to recollect something is only a lie when evidence is presented and the person does not recant. Particularly when there was no base crime.  If this is a lie, then you are a more egregious liar.

With regard to the torture BS, there were plenty of SS Libs seriously advocating real torture following 911. By the facts as they stand, the “enemy prisoners” we have captured do not deserve GC protections. They deserve to be executed. If you do need to torture them to save American lives I see no problem; if they are about to set off any NBC weapons on our soil, I hope they start cutting of the extremities of everyone we hold until someone talks. The only way the GC will hold weight with people who do not obey it, is not to allow them to hide behind it. And waterboarding is not torture. I have been waterboarded in training, and it has caused no permanent harm. You SS do not want to hold the Islamofascists accountable. No one even thinks about war crimes trials against them AND those who support them.

Pardon me if I go to “Kiplinger style” (short phrase, incomplete sentences for brevity) to answer your implication Iraq war was illegal and Bush “lied” us into it. First Gulf war ended (1991) in ceasefire, Iraq violated conditions within three months, automatic criteria under international law for resumption of hostilities; not less then 160 plus subsequent violations, over the next 12 years, would each have been adequate justification for resumption of hostilities; UN weapons inspectors stonewalled to the point of inconclusiveness for 10+ years, how long do they need???; Iraq had terrorist camps (Salman Pak, & more), al Qaeda connection, Tenet (Clinton’s appointee CIA chief held over by Bush) told Bush intel on Iraq was “slam dunk”; over 500 chemical artillery rounds (blister and nerve agent) found in Iraq, strong hard intel remainder moved to Syria or hidden or disposed of secretly (see Inside CentCom by Mike Delong [a true man of integrity, his book cuts both ways] and Saddam’s Secrets by Georges Sada). What was justification and rush for war in Yugoslavia? Genocide? Ethnic cleansing? None of that going on in Iraq right? Half the stuff in Bosnia was proven to be staged by the media. Out by Christmas ’96 right? Oh, that’s right you’re too young to remember.

“Focus on me not clearly saying the phrase came from the DOI” Not clearly, my ass, how about not at all. You clearly associate with the document that contains the Bill of Rights. Now that was a bold faced lie on your part.

Dodge my ignorant gun position? What do I need to buy a carÂ…money! How long must I waitÂ… as long as it takes for the dealerto count the money. Which causes more deathsÂ… neither! The tool user cause the action not the tool. It is ignorant to feel that as an American the burden of proof is on you to show a reason to restrict my rights and not the opposite?  Again I ask “Do you see a real Fascist in that mirror youÂ’re looking into; or is it a communist or can you even tell the difference.” They are both socialist, and statist (big government), but there is an OR in there so I am not accusing you of being both!  So your comment “So now IÂ’m a communist AND a fascist. More crazy talk.” Shows either you are crazy one or donÂ’t read wellÂ… yep a typical pissant American college student.

You and your ilk are more worried about the rights of the barbarians then you are about protecting this country; and would rather have us lose in Iraq if it will hurt Bush, and help get socialists back in power. At best you are un-American, at worst you are traitorous. Free Darfur, but leave Saddam alone; bomb the hell out of Yugoslavia without UN or Congressional approval and it AOK; attack someone legally with Congressional approval, and the war is illegal and you pillory Bush.  Scream why didnÂ’t you connect the dots?! But each time they try find some dots to connect, you try to call them criminals and stop the collection of dots and tell the enemy how we were trying to do it. Which war had PWs released before the end of the war? Which war did the PWs have lawyers in? Which war did our President sustain more attacks from his own countryÂ’s politicians, academics, lawyers and media, then from the enemyÂ’s propaganda machine? Then again maybe they are the enemyÂ’s propaganda machine. How do you define a traitor?

Helorat,

How about we boil this down to what I consider is a very important point and one we clearly disagree on. President Bush is a liar and he isn’t lying about, some irrelevant to his job, personal matter (like Clinton). He is lying about things that directly hurt our country and get our bravest men and women killed.

So you asked: “Try presenting one just one, with a verifiable source.” I did that. A link to him clearly lying to America about getting court orders while he was illegally not getting them. I also provided a link of Cheney lying about what he and the admin. presented as a major reason to take our country to war.

Are these not good enough for you? Are you going to make excuses? Are you going to ignore them by focusing on a distraction, like the Declaration of Independence statement? My bad, it’s only the idea generally considered to be the foundation of American democracy. Of course, you focus on me not clearly saying the phrase came from the DOI, which conveniently allows you to dodge your ignorant gun position.

But let’s leave that out for now. I want to hear how Bush Co. has never lied to the American people.

Gladrob you are incredible; but you are also just plain too much fun. You go well beyond crimes against logic and circular logic to capital murder of logic. Unfortunately I had a late military semi-obligation, and I must be into work before 0630 so I am certain I will not have time to address your “Comment #28354 by gladrob on 10/11 at 3:56 pm” fully before I must leave for work, but I intend to try this weekend. Pending that, how about clearly and concisely (that would be clear and short) answering some simple questions/requests, and the one I posed at the end of my last post to you that you ignored.
1.  Where does the Constitution say “all men are created equal”?  According to you “It says that”.
2.  You say “Nice threat.” If you are able, can you please quote the threat I supposedly made against you that I did not realize I had made?
3.  What do you propose to be an acceptable standard for proof of honorable military service?
4.  How do you specifically characterize President BushÂ’s Discharge IAW with the accepted official terminology of military discharges?

I am unfamiliar with the longevity or off topic censorship rules of places like this, as I am rather inexperienced with posting at places like this. And, as I said you are fun to toy with. If you will post your email address (you should be willing to do this, it is your friendly ground) I will email you mine so that we can continue this directly. Also, if you will keep it to yourself, I will provide you my snail address; I would enjoy bursting your swami bubble, although I do find it interesting that you seem perfectly willing to accept a child can debate you into the dirt. Over.

“Broiler, sunburn is a problem, slippery shower floors are a problem,
Teflon is a problem. We are beset with problems.” - helorat

We are? I know of solutions to all of those problems.
Silly me I should know better, youÂ’ll tough it out.
I was thinking bigger problems but whatever
problems you want to address is OK with me.

“I choose rationally to expose myself to the sun, take showers
on a slick surface and use Teflon cookware.” - helorat

Congratulations on using Teflon coated cookware.
I’ve heard that Teflon is safe if taken as directed.
Do you enjoy drinking Teflon by-products?
I look to you on these issues.

Thanks for the education, I’m sorry we
never touched on that McCain smear campaign
or my being out of touch with social security.
I know, your time is money and I’m just a ..........
Go ahead, you fill it in, it’s like Mad Libs!
Get it? Mad LIBS! C’mon helorat, you gotta love that!

To get back on topic…

I heard on the radio news that the Amish have decided to demolish
the school house.  That seems prudent in order to eliminate the
likeliness of the site becoming a ghoulish roadside curiosity.

Mr. Rohrbough had his say and we can argue over whether he was
selected by CBS for his views.  We can argue over whether CBS was
blindsided by his statements.  We canÂ’t argue that his sentiments are
not shared by everyone.  There were hundreds of families impacted by
the Columbine tragedy and I dare say that they donÂ’t all share the same opinion of what should be done to prevent this from happening again.

“We each owe a death, there are no exceptions, I know that,
but sometimes, oh God, the Green mile is so long.”
- From the Stephen King novel The Green Mile

I find this life thing very risky.
Is life the leading cause of death?
Just a thought, not a good one, just a thought.

Broiler, sunburn is a problem, slippery shower floors are a problem, Teflon is a problem. We are beset with problems. Sun exposure has benefits, slick surfaces and showers have benefits, Teflon has benefits. Cost/benefit choices are continuous. I choose rationally to expose myself to the sun, take showers on a slick surface and use Teflon cookware. The information is available for rational people to make decisions. You make your decision I will make mine.  You are turning minutia into planetary sized masses, and display an incredibly limited perspective of historical realities on the topics you present (and it appears this is nothing new for you).

You admit being overzealous. (Comment #28236 by Broiler on 10/11 at 7:28 am) BS! You told an intentional lie (you knew without a doubt it was a lie), with the intent to misrepresent and deceive in the hope it would sway the lazy, stupid or misinformed to your way of thinking (Just like the eco-Nazis try to do with global warming, which just like global cooling, happens regularly with or without human intervention, if any science is to believed; and just like the Secular Socialists try to do with most their issues including the original topic of violence.). You are guilty of the same thing you accuse President Bush, except to a greater and more egregious extent. You picked your topic, had time to research it yourself, chose to talk about it, and had unlimited time to choose your words and present them, and without a doubt intentionally lied; most likely for the reasons I mentioned. The President must deal with innumerable topics with others doing the research, has limited time to make his point, and hit the high points.  Did you place an equal number of links to sites that disagree with your position? I doubt it. But that is what you expected from the President, who has far less time to make his point, and has virtually all the mainstream media, who are eager to find every negative point of view on his topics, to hammer the negatives home. Look at what you say and what you expect of others. Check the mirror Broiler.

It would be best if you limited your posts to a list of web links (equally divided pro and con on your issue). You are a liar and have no credibility anymore with any thinking person who has read what you have chosen to write.

Helorat,

A. Alive, but unable to live on it’s own. You used “settled law” as your ONLY hard fact to support your argument before going on a tirade. My answer? I could simply say a woman’s right to choose is also settled law, so deal with it. Nobody says they want women to get abortions. But outlawing it is wrong.

B. Sorry, you can cherry pick all you want, but overall both parties have moved right, that’s my opinion and your little cherrys don’t PROVE anything. I see the consolidation of media and the attempts to consolidate more and more power in the executive branch, for instance, as moving right. You may see it differently. No child is a socialist program? News to me. It’s bush’s lame idea anyways. And btw, talk about cherry picking. Your entire party is so far right that we are actually debating whether or not evolution should be taught in schools. Pretending like evolution vs. creationism is an open question. “Oh, but you and your ignorant scientists refuse to look at the bible as hard evidence.”

C. Unemployment is historically low. And this is a fact, right?? Well, just by scanning this link http://www.bls.gov/web/lauhsthl.htm tells me you are full of shit again. There you go “believing” fuzzy math again?

D. Your stats look accurate as far as i can see here. Congrats! But what is your solution? Outlawing all abortions? I’d say that would be a facist, authoritarian answer and would not stop them. My choice is education and assistance, but we know how you feel about govt. helping anyone.

E. I ask you to show me how the positive outweighs the negative regarding instant gun buying and your “factual” answer is ... because I want it now. Sorry that is a stupid fucking answer. Face it, you fake. You conveniently ignore all the evidence regarding criminals and nuts getting guns just cuz you “believe” you deserve to get one instantly. You fall back on the constitution where it says “right to bear arms”, correct? Well how about all men are created equal. It says that, but I bet I know your stand on Gay marriage. Nice cherry picking the constitution and putting people at risk for your own selfish beliefs. You also state “Do you see a real Fascist in that mirror youÂ’re looking into; or is it a communist or can you even tell the difference.” So now I’m a communist AND a fascist. More crazy talk.

F. Nope, Bush did NOT serve honorably and Cheney and the rest i mentioned flatout dodged the war. Now they are all chickenhawks, never having the balls to face it themselves. Just a fact, so you deal with it.

G. Your claim is that Clinton said he abhors the military. Clinton never said, “I abhor the military.” Here’s what he did write in a December 3, 1969, letter to Holmes:

“I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you to understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give.”

So, here we have once again, you “believing” something other than reality.

G. Murder rate. Geez, this was debunked a long time ago. Here’s a taste: IRAQ SAFER THAN D.C. My roommate got mugged last night right in front of our house and someone was shot and killed across the street about a month ago. So is Peter King right that Iraq is less violent than Washington, D.C.? I doubt it. King says he calculates the annualized Iraqi civilian death rate of 27.51 per 100,000 as opposed to 45 per 100,000 in D.C. King’s number for Iraq is about what I get if you add up the past 12 months worth of Iraq Index data on Iraqi civilians killed as a result of acts of war, using their lower bound estimate. If I use their upper bound estimate, I get something more like 52 per 100,000.

This way of looking at it, however, ignores the 2,559 or so Iraqi military and police casualties during the same period. We would, naturally, regard it as a truly disturbing sign of disorder if cops were regularly getting gunned down in the line of duty – normally, even in very high-crime American cities, it’s quite rare to see this happen.

Clearly, you will “believe” things the govt. spoon feeds you. I call that a sucker. You see it differently. I kind of think the govt. in this instance has a lot to lose if it gives the American people the real statistics.

H. Sure I make fun of you about you’re living at home with mommy. I still think you do. I just didn’t point out that you also run up mommy’s credit card too. You are correct and I should have made that clear. Nice threat. Of course you are violent, you’re a right wing fascist. But make no mistake, I don’t need any weapon to choke you out of existence while you frantically reach for one of your precious weapons.

Don’t think Bush Co. has lied to the American people? Amazing. You say: “Try presenting one just one, with a verifiable source.”
Okay, how bout Cheney in his own words?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry7zKPsT1zM

Or maybe Bush in his own words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfbRcedmqvY

Gee, that took me about 5 seconds.

Can’t wait to hear your weak ass, fear-driven, Anti-American, fascist excuses. Helorat twists this fact this way and that fact that way just like Bush and the Repubs. No wonder they call people like you twisted.

“If this country is in such ecological bad shape why are we living longer and getting fatter? When we die it is from overindulgence. I see virtually zero skinny underfed kids getting free breakfasts in one of the poorest schools in one of the poorest counties in my state. I see “poor” kids buying buck a bottle water in an area with some of the best tap water in the country.” - helorat

From July 18, 2001
Teflon Pollution Sticks Around
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/18/tech/main302136.shtml

From April 8, 2005
Teflon Ingredient Found in North Carolina Groundwater
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/teflon_nc.html

From July 8, 2005
“CBS) Tens of thousands of Ohio and West Virginia residents could be tested over the next year to determine if their health has been affected by drinking water containing a chemical used to make the nonstick substance Teflon.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/08/health/main707581.shtml

From January 29, 2006
DuPont Agrees To Teflon Pollution Curbs
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/01/dupont_teflon.html

From February 7, 2006
“A chemical used in manufacturing Teflon is found in the bloodstreams of nearly everyone in the U.S., and now a new study suggests the potential carcinogen is present in many people at birth.”
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/02/teflon_umbilical.html

From October 10, 2006
DuPont sees extra 6 bln usd in sales by 2015 from sustainability commitments
http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/10/10/afx3079791.html

IÂ’ll admit to being over zealous in my initial ground water statement:
“Our entire country has already given in to buying bottled water
because the ground water in most areas isn’t fit to drink.”

Do a little research on this single contaminant, view the inventory of
the current superfund sites and then tell me thereÂ’s no problem.

Oh gladrob (Comment #28079 by gladrob on 10/10 at 1:17 pm) I feel so hurt and sorry for you that your brain damage does not allow you to cut and paste my name or spell it correctly. It is displays such logic and so much command of the facts, it intimidates me almost as much as calling me sport.  I am crushed. Would that you could actually present a few facts yourself. You just live in a fantasy world of feelings, and demand facts and logic from others with no perceived need to display any yourself. Just throw a few insults, vulgarities and idiotic questions and demands around and hope for the best.

A.  Unborn babies are alive, irrefutable fact. The only thing that determines their viability outside the womb after conception is the state of advancement of medical science; fact again. If I murder your pregnant wife, I have committed two murders; settled law. Tell me you would have it different for your first born, sport! A human accident or disease victim may be incapable of living without more life support then many fetuses. Are these victims thus less alive and possessing of less of a right to life because of the need for care? The fetusÂ’ need was “created” by the parents, they have the same responsibility to fulfill the need they created as a perpetrator has to make restitution to a crime victim they place in similar “medical need.” Secular Socialists (SS) declare, with full authority, all living things have the right to live, hence unborn babies must therefore have it also. SS tell us animal rights trump medical research for humans. You believe an unborn baby does not even rate with inconvenience for a woman. I just bet that makes you feel so “progressive and enlightened.” It leads me to the logical fact based conclusion you are mentally ill.
B.  Are you deaf, dumb, blind, and /or just plain stupid. Moveon.org advocates almost pure socialism. This country was founded on individual responsibility and self reliance. That is the antithesis of socialism. The republican party has been dragged left by unending attacks by SS “democrats” in politics, academia media and law. Even President Bush has teamed with Senator “Pickled” Kennedy for the unconstitutional and leftist socialist no child gets ahead legislation. Your party has pulled so far left that the man who was your vice presidential standard bearer six years ago and has a 90%+ “liberal” rating (by “liberal” organizations) is excoriated and loses his primary to “Moveon” Lamont. Talk about belief without facts. How many facts do you want? Where are yours? Non-existent once again.
C.  Worked for Kennedy, Reagan, Bush2; Fact! Economic growth is fast and steady, inflation is low, unemployment historically low, interest rates reasonable, and real wages (after inflation) up 7.5%. What more do you want? Jimmy Carter Economics? You mistake economic growth with government spending. Tax revenues have increased massively with tax cuts; Fact! Deficit is caused by massive entitlement spending, look at percentage of budget spent on social welfare programs in 1965 (pre-Vietnam Build-up) vs. Defense then and now, and tell me different; and while you are at it tell me how we have not moved massively leftist/socialist in our government spending. Where are your facts, sport!
D.  The Alan Guttmacher Institute is the research arm of Planned Parenthood and openly supports abortion and widespread access to contraceptives. Their stats: Twenty-one percent of women said inadequate finances were the chief reason for their abortion; 21 percent said they were not ready for the responsibility; 16 percent said life would change too much; 12 percent said either they had problems with their relationship or were unmarried; 11 percent said they were too young; and eight percent said they already had all the children they wanted. Only four percent (4%) of abortions are obtained as a result of rape, incest or for the health of the mother.  Guttmacher Inst. Report: Abortion Statistics, 2001 & 2002 (AGI, 2005) Enough proof for you?!
E.  Just who the hell (oh I forgot you SS and donÂ’t believe in that) do you think you are to tell me I have to justify why it is my right to buy something that is for sale and I have the money for. I am an American. Just where the hell are you from, the UK; the PRC? Do you see a real Fascist in that mirror youÂ’re looking into; or is it a communist or can you even tell the difference.
F.  Fact GWB did serve honorably in the military. But that is not relevant, you are dodging, but it wonÂ’t work. Service in the military is not mandatory to be elected to any office I am aware of, but electing someone who has written he “abhors the military” and protests his own country on foreign soil to the position of CinC is disgusting.
G.  Murder rate/annualized Iraqi civilian death rate of 27.5 per 100,000 based on U.S. military and independent statistical sources. Washington, D.C., it is 45.9 violent deaths per 100,000. Detroit: 41.8 per 100,000; Baltimore: 37.7 per 100,000; Atlanta: 34.9 per 100,000; St. Louis: 31.4 per 100,000; The American city with the highest civilian death rate was New Orleans before Katrina—with a staggering 53.1 deaths per 100,000—almost twice the death rate in Iraq. With no sense of irony, corrupt Louisiana Democrats blame Bush for the Katrina disaster too. Source: Congressional Record. Amazing facts to refute your emotional rants!
H.  Interesting that you try to insult me with foolish statements about credit cards in your paragraph C, then challenge my age, my capacity to have a real job, and live on my own. You cannot even stay consistent in your illogical, emotional, non-factual rants. Have you always had the magical powers to divine knowledge about the people you communicate with over the web. Did your great debating skills come with the internet version of your mail order, back of the comic book, Swami Carnak turbin. Cost one SASE and three cereal box tops right? Yes, I do indeed have a real job and a military retirement too. And you are a pitiful fool. And my Mother lives 700+ miles from me in her own paid off home, as is mine. And I have two grown children (not living with me), one of whom is in med school, and the other is a delivery driver for an auto parts store. DonÂ’t I wish you would come and get me you crude hypocrite. Choose your weapon, I am waiting.
I.  In this country poor is a choice. My MotherÂ’s parents were penniless immigrants who left their oldest son a paid off 5 bedroom home and a significant amount of money and other assets. My Father came to this country in his teens, died when I was 4 and the youngest of 4 and left my Mother in debt. She raised us all without welfare, or her parents help, and I earned a full scholarship to college, and worked for 3.5 of my four years in college. My oldest brother was a GS13 when he retired, my sister owns her own home and 200+ acres and has no need to work off her property, my other brother owns his own home and is prepared to go into full retirement from a state government teaching position. One more time: In this country poor is a choice. Fact!

You know gladrob, debating with you is like having a fine 16th century Spanish rapier, and fencing with an opponent armed with a spoon who thinks he is in a steel eating contest. You could not debate your way out of middle school. Was there a single fact backed by anything resembling logic in any of your 12 paragraphs? NO! And you call me a “believer”, which I am, but not the way you mean.  It does not appear that you are able to recognize facts and logic when you are presented with them. If you could, logic dictates you might actually try to present at least one yourself in the course of a rant that long, unless you think presenting only one would highlight the weakness of your pitifully emotional and illogical arguments.  You say “You really believe that there is no hard evidence that bush co. has lied to america. How could i possibly do justice to the monumentalness or hugeness or gimongousness of the sheer stupidity and ignorance of that belief?“ Try presenting one just one, with a verifiable source. Too tough for you I suppose. (Oh BTW, you may want to work on using real words spelled correctly. Between the previous quote and your fondness for vulgarity, it might lead someone to question your vocabulary).

I read very widely. You on the other hand appear to have spent too much time in these little inbred SS websites circle jerking with SS just like you. You have tried to cherry pick my arguments and gotten choked on the hard core of the pits. You have no clue how to present a logical argument, or debate an issue rationally.  This what is not going real well?

“oh,and broiler you cant “choose” facts.a fact is a fact not an opinion.”
- big Al

What about the smear campaign was not a fact?

I used the word choose because I had a choice of
what turned me off to the current administration.

And I repeat my question to you:

Is McCain illogical, hypocritical, un-American, cowardly and communist?

From John McCain to John Kerry: The Vicious Smear Tactics of the Bush Campaign
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/31/148237

Bush Admin. Launched Secret Smear Campaign Against Murtha…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/01/12/bush-admin-launched-secr_n_13713.html

Smear campaign has McCain on the warpath
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/06/1091732094036.html?oneclick=true

John McCain 2000: The Swiftboaters’ First Mission
http://www.patriotproject.com/2006/09/john_mccain_200.php

“McCain appears to be concerned about sentiments like this.
His falling-out with social conservatives, particularly in the South,
was considered key to his losing the 2000 nomination, though many
have blamed Bush’s campaign operatives for engaging in a smear
campaign against McCain ahead of the critical South Carolina primary.”
- excerpted from the report:
“National Security Credentials Key for 2008 GOP White House Hopefuls”
by Kelley Beaucar Vlahos on FoxNews.com
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,210365,00.html?sPage=fnc.politics/youdecide2006

A Fox News report drops a reminder in passing six years later.
I get it; weÂ’re supposed to forget the smear campaigns ever happened.
Even Senator McCain was forced to swallow his pride or lose his political life.
A national hero, what a crime.

Be careful how you respond, McCain might well
be the Republican candidate in 2008!

To Jay,

You sure hit the nail on the head.

r

Comment #27697 by jay on 10/08 at 12:26 pm

hey people, “Big AlÂ’s” an idiot so blow him off…answering him is a waste of time because people like him will NEVER, EVER get it! that why weÂ’re in the shape weÂ’re in now, because people give credence to what this numbnuts and his ilk have to say. heÂ’s the true minority in an enlightened society. The man is stunted.

Al the believer rants.

Al the believer raves.

Al the believer projects.

—-Al’s lesson for the day:  “psychological projection” is a defense mechanism in which one attributes (or “projects”) to others, oneÂ’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them. (see also, Al’s comments regarding facts.)

Al the believer doesn’t have to back up his claims.

Why? Cause he’s Al the believer.

Al the believer is impenetrable.

Al the believer won’t look.

Al the believer won’t listen.

Al the believer makes his own reality.

Al the believer is a BELIEVER.

Al the believer is right.

Al the believer is a black conservative (cuz it’s important we know) who, btw, had a really wise father (who is probably turning over in his grave).

Al the believer is black…. and white…..he’s black and white.

Al the believer is scared.

Al the believer is angry.

Al the believer hates Clinton.

Al the believer hates Muslims.

Al the believer hates libs.

Al the believer is dangerous.

Al the believer snaps :(  I just hope there are no kids around.

oh,and broiler you cant “choose” facts.a fact is a fact not an opinion.But I think you may be learning.is it possible-a lib with a brain?(who is fast-becoming conservative?)broiler if you want ss dismantled,youre right.it was a bad,liberal idea all along.so how can you agree with ANYTHING else these people(libs)have to say?they are communists nothing more.I believe you are starting to think and realize how much more sense conservatism makes.Conservative govt. is like a good parent.not abusive,but firm when needed.not poking their nose in their kids business but not lettin them do anything seriously self-destructive,and protecting them.liberal govt is like most of the parents of the kids in the neighborhood i grew up in,who as a child could stay out later than me,and basically have more fun than me.I go to that old neighborhood rarely,but sometimes just drive through and see whats up.those kids with the “lib"parents i was so jealous of as a kid,are now crackheads,gangbangers,in and out of jail,etc.etc.and this is most,not all,but most.Liberalism is an alcoholic,drug-addicted,sex addicted,abusive parent who doesnt protect its children but advocates laws to kill them and it must be killed.and helorat,your posts are brief when condemning liberalism.we could both write 20 volumes on the hypocrisies and problems of the comlibs.and not even touch the surface of its evils.

helorat,

its funny how the only person who so far has made any sense on this thread is another conservative.I think youre right about wasting my time with those who would rather believe, i dont know,ANYTHING except what their eyes show them.Check those last three posts by broiler and madrob and you almost start to think that maybe there should be an intelligence test given before you can vote.These guys are truly funny but things’ll get serious real quick if they ever get in power.You guys really remind me of the time when the pope said the muslims were violent.they said"we are not violent!and just because you said that, we are going to killyou and burn your churches!” Hilarious how anyone sane could ever see these two as intelligent or well-informed after reading these posts.What is scary is that jokers like these are very much mainstream. All those words written and still NOT ONE FACT,or even credible idea.Lib’s basic goal seems to be “dismantle evry American institution,the economy,all moral responsibility,and after were done well replace it all with-o yea,thats the part they havent figured out yet.what pathetic, brainwashed people you are.You guys obviously dont know much about communism.go read about and its history and tell me the difference between what you believe and communism.If you are as smart as you think you are,you will join me and helorat and the rest of the American patriots afterwards and recant your commlibism.But you are not as smart as you think you are,thats the only problem.And without the odious,morally bankrupt act of abortion you people would have no platform at all.that FACT alone makes libs disgusting people.as helorat said “replacing one act of irresponsibility with another.what libs dont recognize is that with rights come responsibilty.MORAL responsibility.The only good thing about you libs is that eventually youll abort and birth control yourselves out of existence.

“social security reform-a paltry 19&#xof; money put into the system would have the option of going to an investment fund OF THE BEARERS CHOICE” - big Al

I stated earlier, I’m not a liberal.
I disagree with social security entirely.
Don’t reform it, do away with it.
You earn it, you keep it.
You’re offering me the option of investing a
paltry 19% of these deducted earnings when I
should be entitled to 100% of the earnings outright.

Wow, what a deal! Repeat, I’m not a liberal.

Let’s explore a few of Hellrat’s “belief-o-facts”:

A. You believe “fetuses have a right to live”
REALLY? MAYBE YOU CAN BACK THAT UP, SPORT.

B. You believe “moveon.org types have taken a great leap left”
HOW BOUT SOME PROOF OF THAT? I’D SAY BOTH PARTIES HAVE GONE RIGHT AND REPUBS ARE SO FAR RIGHT NOW THAT THEY ARE RADICAL.

C. You believe “supply side economics worked for Reagan”
STILL BASKING IN THAT POST REAGAN GLOW HUH? MAYBE IT WAS HIS HISTORICALLY HIGH DEFICIT HE RAN UP. KINDA LIKE THE HISTORICALLY HIGH DEFICIT BUSH IS RUNNING UP. TELL US HOW YOUR CREDIT CARD ARE PAYMENTS GOING THERE RATBOY?

D. You believe “virtually all abortions are for birth control purposes”
YOUR KEY WORD HERE IS VIRTUALLY, RIGHT? SHOW US YOUR PROOF OR STFU.

E. You believe people should be able to aquire guns “instantly”
WTF? WHY? SHOW US HOW THE POSITIVE OF THIS OUTWEIGHS THE NEGATIVE.

F. You probably believe GWB, Cheney, Rummy, Wolfowitz, Rove… served honorably in the military.
LOL, NEXT.

G. You believe “murder rate is lower in Iraq”
WHAT A NUMB SKULL. REALLY?? CARE TO PROVE IT? WHO WAS IT THAT SAID STUPID PEOPLE BELIEVE THE BIGGEST LIE EASIER?

H. You believe you have a real job.
OBVIOUSLY, YOU DON’T AND YOU ARE ALONE IN MOM’S HOUSE FEVERISHLY TYPING OUT YOUR MANIFESTO-LIKE RANTS AGAINST THE GREAT EVIL IN THE WORLD. THE LIBERALS. wwwwwhoooooooooooo. we’re coming to geeeetttt you. I got an “SS” patch on my jacket ooooooolol.

I. You believe poor is a choice.
THAT’S JUST CRAZY TALK AGAIN. DAMN THOSE LAZY BASTARDS.

Oh well, I’m actually at MY real job and I shouldn’t waste any more time making fun of your ignorance. You believe alot of crazy shit there hellrat. You really believe that there is no hard evidence that bush co. has lied to america. How could i possibly do justice to the monumentalness or hugeness or gimongousness of the sheer stupidity and ignorance of that belief?

You are a “believer” and that’s the bottom line. Nothing will ever penetrate your granite-like skull that isn’t in line with your beliefs. So, innocent (living people) will die, poor will suffer, corruption will flourish, you will get fatter, the environment will become more toxic, the deficit will grow, terrorist population will grow also, more kids will die of guns, we’ll go to war with more countries, kill kill kill, hate hate hate, fear fear fear, steal steal steal, pollute kill steal greed and on and on until somebody WINS. Yeah, you must WIN. It’s all so simple, we are evil and you are good.

I feel sorry for you Al and I don’t say that as a slam at all. You are deathly afraid of those NOT in power. My hope is that you allow some tidbits of what is REALLY going on seep into you thinking. Visit mediamatters or any of the so called evil side sites and read with a truly open mind. Try to see the big picture. Who REALLY is benefiting from decisions? Are there patterns here? We are all attacking each other (me included) but your arguments are not persuading me and maybe mine aren’t either. All i know is that it’s very easy to see the right lying and deceiving now. You don’t see ANY OF IT. And that is the part that really scares me. Dems aren’t perfect, they may not be the answer, but geez buddy, this is not going well right now.

“broiler-i really hope youre being facetious. i hope you are not
that paranoid delusional.that is dangerous.a plant!you gotta be
kiddin me! state just ONE FACT about our administration that
makes you liberal” - big Al

I choose this fact Al. (By the way, I donÂ’t consider myself liberal
but if it makes you happy, so be it.)

During the 2000 presidential primary the Bush camp used
a racial smear campaign in order to beat John McCain in
South Carolina.

That should have been alarming to every Republican.

Is McCain illogical, hypocritical, un-American, cowardly and communist?

Care to chime in specifically on this helorat?

“Today n korea launched a nuclear missile.” - big Al

Al, I believe you are referring to the North Korean
claim of a successful “underground” test. I don’t
believe an actual missile was launched.

“The U.S. may need days or weeks to confirm whether
the blast detected deep inside a mountain near North
Korea’s northeast coast was caused by a nuclear device.”
- Janine Zacharia, Bloomberg.com

Stop the presses, big Al says it was nuclear.

Is it possible this was simply a ploy using conventional
explosives to get our attention? Boy, would that be
embarrassing. But let’s forget about that confirmation,
big Al says it was nuclear and he should know.
We’ll continue on his premise.

The entire Bloomberg report:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=awtQfPF_omh8&refer=us

According to this report a number of prominent
Republicans are not in line with the current
administration’s handling of North Korea.
They include former secretary of state James Baker
and Republican Representative Curt Weldon of Pennsylvania.

What would you have us do Al? Should I rant what
idiots Baker and Weldon are for not backing the
current policy? They must be libs! What do you
call them Al? Oh yeah, I remember! They are
illogical, hypocritical, un-American, cowardly and
communist for having an opposing view.

There were big issues during the Clinton scandal
too. You can’t have it both ways. Clinton was
dealing with a subordinate but an adult. Foley
was dealing with subordinates and apparently
minors.

This pedophilia thing hits a nerve on most of us Al,
why not you? Look, politicians on both sides play
“politics” at times. Senate Commerce Committee
Chairman John McCain spent how many precious months
trying to free baseball from the grip of steroids?
Most Americans could give a flying “you know” about
over paid entertainers. It’s just politics Al.
Nobody’s forgotten North Korea.

FACT:  President Bush and Vice President Cheney have told audiences that Social Security faces an $11 trillion shortfall if nothing is done to fix the current system. But they fail to mention that this is over the course of the “infinite future.” Over the next 75 years—still practically a lifetime—the shortfall is projected to be $3.7 trillion.

The “infinite” projection is one that the American Academy of Actuaries says is likely to mislead the public into thinking the system “is in far worse financial condition than is actually indicated,” and therefore should not be used to explain the long-term outlook.

In his State of the Union Address, President Bush said again that the Social Security system is headed for “bankruptcy,” a term that could give the wrong idea. Actually, even if it goes “bankrupt” a few decades from now, the system would still be able to pay about three-quarters of the benefits now promised.

Bush also made his proposed private Social Security accounts sound like a sure thing, which they are not. He said they “will” grow fast enough to provide a better return than the present system. History suggests that will be so, but nobody can predict what stock and bond markets will do in the future.

Bush left out any mention of what workers would have to give up to get those private acounts—a proportional reduction or offset in guaranteed Social Security retirement benefits.

He also glossed over the fact that money in private accounts would be “owned” by workers only in a very limited sense—under strict conditions which the President referred to as “guidelines.” Many retirees, and possibly the vast majority, wouldn’t be able to touch their Social Security nest egg directly, even after retirement, because the government would take some or all of it back and convert it to a stream of payments guaranteed for life.

RIIIIIIIIIIININNNNNNNNNG. Oh, it’s recess time, Al. See you next period.

FACT:  North Korea DID NOT launch a nuclear missle. The had an underground test. Hey Al, do you know what a FACT is??? Idiot. Here’s and idea for ya, why don’t YOU respond to the FACT that you don’t know what a fact is? You see, and I will spell it out for you like you’re a child… in your little multiple post diatrabe you whine that we don’t know what facts are, and yet here is a clear example of YOU being confused regarding what a fact is. What should we make of this? Hmmm. I got it. Al doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. There, now that should be of some help to you as you move along through the world, Al. Just remember that little phrase right before you open you mouth.

FACT:  BigAl states that part of Bush/Repub’s plan is to “stop the terrorists.” Well, and i’m positive you can’t fact this fact…it’s not working. We are not stopping them, we are making more of them and making them stronger. Al you have to do is listen to the dozens of US Generals who are saying this. Or http://youtube.com/watch?v=l4C6ffNp734

FACT:  You whole childish rant about racism is a strawman. “A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “set up a straw man” or “set up a straw-man argument” is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact misleading, because the opponent’s actual argument has not been refuted.”

FACT:  You responded with 5 posts (why? is anyone’s guess). In 3 of your five you stated zero Alfacts (I call them that cuz Alfacts are not based on reality but come from a little talking medallion hanging from the rearview mirror of Al’s cab). In the remaining 2 posts you whined about your racism strawman and regurgitated misinformation about the social security scam.

SUMMARY:  Al is fully committed to the right wing talking points. Any information that goes against or refutes these “beliefs” will be rejected by whatever means he has (which are pretty weak btw). He “believes” we are stopping terrorism. He “believes” we are racist. He “believes” social security needs to be dismantled. He “believes”  He “believes”  He “believes”  He “believes.”

Wow, I can’t believe you guys are still at it. I thought I would check back just to see how this “conversation” ended. I am not sure why I am bothering to post again. I guess I am just looking for a little distraction before I have to do some real work.

Al, whoever you are, you really should take your time and post with the same care that your ideas deserve. You give the SS (Secular Socialists) a way to divert your arguments to the irrelevant, but then again they would do that anyway. 

Your detractors deal in massive fantasy, propaganda and sheer crimes against logic. It is humorous to see someone say that each of your posts was met with intellectual replies: 

“All of your rants have been met with intellectual replies.” Comment #27789 by Broiler on 10/09 at 6:59 am Right in the middle of a four paragraph emotional rant with zero facts.

Or even better:
“Here’s a fact for you, I have been a conservative
my entire life.” Comment #27710 by Broiler on 10/08 at 2:53 pm

Conservative what? Conservative fiscally, socially (macro or micro), etc. etc… And how do I confirm that it is a fact? That is the kind of “facts” the SS like to deal with the opinion kind, that aren’t verifiable. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Broiler, you rant like a dyed in the wool life long SS. At least nine paragraphs, not one true “fact”, and a weak attempt to slam that favorite SS corporate boogeyman (the only corporate entity more evil then Walmart to the SS) Haliburton (who was given their first “no bid contract” by President Clinton in Bosnia [ you know that place we were going to be out of by Christmas in 1996 where the Moslems burn Christian Churches while the NATO “peacekeepers” roast marshmallows BTW]) .

If this country is in such ecological bad shape why are we living longer and getting fatter? When we die it is from overindulgence. I see virtually zero skinny underfed kids getting free breakfasts in one of the poorest schools in one of the poorest counties in my state. I see “poor” kids buying buck a bottle water in an area with some of the best tap water in the country. Even our poor have more money then they “need”. Necessities are paid by the government and a “right” (NOT!) Do any of you SS know how we determine if someone is “poor”?

Yes “Okay Al”, Reagan’s policies led to the Clinton “balanced budget” and FDR’s policies did take 40-50 years to kick in. Comment #27642 by Okay Al on 10/07 at 10:48 pm Reagan’s tax rate cuts and strong leadership led to the unleashing of American productivity, and the fall of the Soviet Union. In spite of the democrat congress’ out spending the increased government revenues caused by tax rate cuts, the economy prospered. Clinton balanced the budget on the back of the military (peace dividend taken while we were at war 911 occurred in 1993 at the WTC and Clinton treated like an LE problem), and that increase in productivity. Look at the federal budget of the Clinton years, and the size and expense of that federal budget, and the DOD. Without the DOD cuts the Government grew and the deficit would have increased even more massively without the welfare reform (later, slowly but inexorably all but completely replaced by other forms of welfare entitlements like the earned income tax credit) forced on Clinton by the republican house.

Social security was a Ponzi Scheme from the start that if sold by a federally regulated broker would result in prison time. FDR’s programs coupled with LBJ’s “Great Society” programs gave us the utterly government dependant class of N.O. Katrina infamy, (and their democrat masters left them to die) and our crushing budget deficits are a result of their endless entitlement program; not republican or democrat pork as obnoxious as it is. Look at the budget, and show me where I am wrong.

The democrat state and local governments have the responsibility of first response and they delayed, obfuscated and then denied. The Federal government has no constitutional authority to give welfare or evacuate people, and when they try they are inefficient and ineffective. Had individuals involved and the democrats (state and local) carried out their responsibilities and/or done their jobs, their would have been no need to perform 40,000+ life saving rescues, which substantial delayed what turned out to be the largest, and ONE OF THE FASTEST relief efforts in US history. This dependant class took 40-60 years to develop and mature from the policies of government, media, academic and legal SS.

“Ok Al” you are right: “THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS NOT CONSERVATIVE ANYMORE.” But the democratic party IS NO LONGER AMERICAN! And I will gladly hold my nose and vote republican before I would bend over, grab my ankles, and vote democrat or worse yet not vote and let them win by default.

At Columbia University student SS use assaults, threats, and violence to suppress free speechÂ… in the name of free speech?? The SS university leadership refuses to prosecute criminal behavior because they no doubt secretly agree and applaud it and are unwilling to risk the perks of insulated academia to actual do something controversial.  Typical anti-American SS.

Democrats have no problem with precedent of Carter getting Vietnamese spies convicted using warrantless wiretaps but heaven forbid (oops sorry you donÂ’t believe in heaven do you), President Bush use them against enemies that actually pose a threat to us an is excoriated as a Fascist. What a sick joke you people are.

Logic? Facts? Where?!

Gladrob is another felonious assaulter of logic (Comment #27404 by gladrob on 10/06 at 12:39 pm) with no clue as to what a “fact” is. Just because you choose to place the label of progressive and liberal in front of someone, or if they choose to do so themselves, does not make them that progressive or liberal, or even SS which is far more likely. And radical must be attached to another term to have political significance. Ignoring your sophomoric construction and word usage, let me address your “facts of life”:
1.  Just because the SS moveon.org types have taken a great leap left, does not drag the bar of American politics in that direction. How do you come to this conclusion? Where are the facts on which you base this OPINION I strongly disagree with?
2.  Irrelevant! Who kept them poor, who made them dependent on the government, who told them to live in a place like that if they canÂ’t respond. They chose to live there, it is a free country. But they are free to die too. Freedom goes both ways, as does dependence. The circumstances of N.O. were no surprise a century ago. Chosen ignorance and poor decision making cannot be overcome by government programs, they are just enablers for it.
3.  A living breathing woman should have the responsibility not to create the fetus, with the help of a man, unless they have the desire to keep it and the means to provide for it. Women have a choice not to get pregnant, fetuses have a right to live. To ignore the FACT that virtually all abortions are for birth control purposes is to truly live in a fantasyland. “Safe legal and rare”… a truly sick joke. A true right is something you can exercise without having cost or harm fall on another. The only thing that hurts is the dying human embryo.
4.  Conservatives believe change must have a positive purpose. Change for changesÂ’ sake is something you choose for yourself, not impose on other.
5.  And little smiley smirks belong on your face, not at the end of fact based, logical and relevant arguments, something startlingly absent from your posts; which probably explains the little smiley smirk.
6.  Tax rate cuts and supply side economics worked for Reagan, is working now, worked for the last American Democrat President (Kennedy) and every other time it has been used.
7.  Obviously lying to stay in power?!  Thy name is Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton is a malicious, self serving, pathological liar in a complete state of denial, and his apologists (Democrats) are willing to accept or ignore it if it will help them gain, maintain, or regain power, or further their socialist agenda. Clinton lies, and knows he does it, and continues to do so for malicious reasons. Such people cannot be ignored or forgiven. His interview with Chris Wallace provided hard evidence of this. There is zero hard evidence President Bush, or the Republicans as a group or party, have done anything remotely equivalent. Show me the FACTS!

The SS marginalize the facts and the truth and magnify the trivial to further their aims.

Or they just plain lie like Gladrob, and when he is shown to be a liar by me in a previous post, he just ignores Comment #27224 by gladrob on 10/05 I would blame the Republican Congress that has taken 1000,000 police officers off the streets in communities throughout our nation You lie to to spread your propaganda. We donÂ’t, and never had, 1,000,000 police to lose http://www.iacp.org/faq.htm.

They lie to further their agenda, then when what they say is proven to be false they say I was only joking or the try to twist and marginalized the truth.

Cquil for instance. Comment #27398 by C Quil on 10/06 at 12:27 pm My mistake. The ACLU doesnÂ’t defend the absolute right for any citizen to bear unlimited arms of any type. It is neutral on this issue. The Supreme court backs the original intent of citizens to bear arms to form militias. Since then, it has mostly left it up to individual jurisdictions (i.e. cities, towns, schools, etc.) to ban firearms within their own confines. I guess the right NOT to be shot by someone also has as much weight as the right to carry a gun. own confines. I guess the right NOT to be shot by someone also has as much weight as the right to carry a gun.

First he marginalized the fact that he lied, second he lies again The ACLU does not defend the right to bear arms or the 2d Amdt period! And he lies again, when he states the original intent dealt only with “militias” when the Founders freely state the militia was “the whole body of the people” and title 10 section 311 of current US codes specifically state all males between the ages of 18-45 are in the militia. Then he and others utterly ignore that INFRINGED part. And then goes on to say it is perfectly ok for localities to remove a fundamental human right of self defense of life and liberty. He no doubt forgets why Lexington and Concord occurred. Then he proceeds to another typical SS assault on logic with “I guess the right NOT to be shot by someone also has as much weight as the right to carry a gun.” How do you assume that a law abiding person carrying a gun wants to shoot you. Criminals don’t care about gun control laws. And in every “shall issue” ccw state there has been no “wild west” out break, and most have experienced significant drops in violent crime. You hang the “GUN FREE” sign on your house. Incredible! Check the looting in N.O. v Mississippi; or in FL and AL after Ivan. MS, FL, AL have lots of guns, less control and little looting. Your SS welfare state of N.O. has lots of “sane gun control” true corrupt cowardly Democrat government, and chaos and rampant murder, heck the murder rate is lower in Iraq before Katrina.

Oh and C Quil, no. No relief, I was hoping for another good one so I would have a chance to pop a few looters. They just never seem to come near me.

Oh an “AlÂ’s Alarm Clock” (Comment #27232 by Al’s Alarm Clock on 10/05 at 3:49 pm):
1.  What part of infringed donÂ’t you understand? I donÂ’t have a problem with background checks on retail sales, as long as they are instant.
2.  Probably because you are a candyass and choose to completely ignore draft dodger “I abhor the military” Clinton.
3.  You can label me what ever you want, but I fear the government that fears my guns. Clinton did, Bush does not. Free people are armed, and must be disarmed before totalitarianism can succeed. Simple, provable, historical, logical and factual. Heck you SS donÂ’t see totalitarianism (NAZI=socialism=the modern American left [heck look at the Columbia university Brown Shirts and their response to free speech they donÂ’t like; and University aswell]) when you preach it, live it and promote it.
4.  Tax RATE cuts equally to everyone who actually pays taxes has boosted the economy massively and the revenues from taxes. Yes lower tax rates resulted in more taxes taken in and strangely enough an increasing burden on the wealthy. Go ahead check the facts show me where I am wrong. And yeah, you need a strong economy to fight a war.
5.  MR. Clock you are the one doing the conning and your clock has been cleaned.

They are like Jay (Comment #27376 by jay on 10/06 at 10:28 am) who hides SS beliefs behind the more palatable term of progressive. The most fundamental “human right”, which he supposedly advocates, is the right to life; which he no doubt opposes for “the most vulnerable in this society”, namely the unborn. FACTS! Again, a true right is something you can exercise without having cost or harm fall on another. Abortion is not a right, at the very least and in the most positive light even SS logic should allow, it is the choice of an act of irresponsibility with an attempt to cover it up with another.

No Jay, (please pardon the ad hominem but your apparent historical ignorance and unbelievable hubris merit it) you ignorant fool, all my rights were given to me by God, guaranteed to me by our Founders through the Constitution and were preserved by those who fought for them. What an incredible TWIT you are! Tax cuts that benefit the rich, tax cuts that benefit the rich, tax cuts that benefit the rich, like a brain dead myna bird. The tax cuts were across the board for everybody who paid taxes! Fact! You can’t cut taxes for people who don’t pay them. Say what you mean, you want to cut FICA taxes for the “poor” so you can turn social security into pure welfare. Admit you are a socialist, you coward, don’t hide behind your little “I prefer to be called a progressive”. Us gun totin’ right wing radical boogeymen can’t shoot you thru the net. Go home you ignorant little worm… sir my rosey red butt!

Talk about mental capacity how many SS read the PopesÂ’ lecture which engendered so much IslamoFascist (IF) violence and SS sympathy for the injured IFs. I sincerely doubt the SS who post here could deal with the irrefutable logic and reason contained in his speech, and the telling proof of barbarism shown by the IF response, and the amorality of the SS sympathy for those barbarians.

Al, I would not bother with these fools. They are way too programmed. It is not worth the effort, but then again, it is kinda fun and relaxinÂ’ like plinking at tin cans, not much challenge, but relaxing.  Have a great day. And pardon the occasional Kiplinger style writing.

“I understand full well the value of private property and its importance not only in our state but in capitalism in general, and I will do everything I can
to defend the power of private property and private property rights when I
am the governor of this state.” - George Bush while running against Ann Richards for Governor of Texas

To read how the president benefited from the power of
eminent domain to build the “Ballpark at Arlington” go here:
http://www.bushfiles.com/bushfiles/SweetheartDeal.html

On a related note, following the landmark Supreme Court decision of
Kelo v. City of New London, Justice Anthony Kennedy (a moderate
conservative appointed by Ronald Reagan) stated in his concurring opinion:

“A court confronted with a plausible accusation of impermissible favoritism
to private parties should [conduct]Â….a careful and extensive inquiry into
‘whether, in fact, the development plan [chronology]

[1.] is of primary benefit to . . . the developerÂ…, and private businesses
which may eventually locate in the plan areaÂ…,

[2.] and in that regard, only of incidental benefit to the cityÂ…[.]Â’”

It would appear that the president and his former partners benefited
from a sweetheart deal that seized property belonging to the Mathes
family of Arlington, Texas. It was reported that the president made
over $10 million having invested $605,000 on the sale of the Rangers
baseball team. Nothing wrong with smart business, lots wrong with
running roughshod over the constitutional rights of others.

Will the presidentÂ’s family benefit from his working both sides of this issue?

I see my “estate” dwindling as I spend more of my retirement savings
on medical emergencies. Property values have soared and despite working
longer and harder, attending night school to improve my employment value,
IÂ’m no closer to owning a home now, then I was when I joined the workforce
27 years ago. I’m not alone. I’m a laboratory manager. I’m a “tweener”,
Neither blue nor white collar. The company I work for has had to lay off blue
collar workers to compete with cheaply made competitive products. Competitive
is a misnomer in that the technical equipment we make can not be produced cheaply.
Many manufacturers in the US, some our former customers, are lowering their
product quality to compete with cheaply made foreign imports. Simply put, you
canÂ’t compete with manufacturers that have no human ethics, environmental
restraints or production standards.

Imagine for a moment Al that you had to compete against cab companies that
didnÂ’t have to pay competitive wages, insurance premiums and their fleets did
not have to meet safety or emission standards. Would you have much of an “estate”
left to be taxed after that scenario?

In a short time, only the super rich would benefit from repealing the “estate tax”.
Personally, I would like to see the tax go despite the underlying “class” benefits.

Broiler,heres another FACT(do you know what a fact is?)while were making “contributions to the forum”(of which youve made none)lets talk about the liberal agenda…specifically,WHAT IS IT?
The conservative agenda as it stands now is “stop the terrorists,reform social security,lower taxes for ALL Americans,(repeal of the death tax anyone?conservative idea and the libs tried as hard as they could but they lost that one)As for progress,one of the biggest pieces of legislation ever written was from the Bush administration(social security reform-a paltry 19&#xof; money put into the system would have the option of going to an investment fund OF THE BEARERS CHOICE,ensuring future earnings and TRUE social security.the libs mobilized on that one and tricked Americans by playing on their fear of losing WHAT THEY DONT HAVE ANYWAY.This one piece of legislation would have been hugely beneficial and now I bet youre gonna tell me somethin very stupid now,because all of these FACTS surely have your head spinning and thinking is obviously foreign to you so youll lash out next post,call me a redneck,insult my grammar, and basically make a fool of yourself again.because you have no FACTS.you should not be allowed to vote because youre uninformed-you LIBERAL

o yea and to both of you morons.you imply that Because I “all of a sudden I can type and capitalize
letters that Im n not from the hood and that I must be a “plant”(LMFAO again).This is racism at its ugliest.you are basically saying “no way hes black and from the hood writing that well"as if blacks from the hood could never communicate effectively.it is inconcievable to you that a Black man could get anywhere w/o the governments help,therefore, i must be a “plant"you both are stupid racist communist fools AND YOU DONT EVEN KNOW IT.you LIBERALS!

Today n korea launched a nuclear missile.our president had a press conference announcing the steps needed.meanwhile the dems were rousing the Foley thing again and are considering “an investigation”.this is the problem with you people youre not focused on the big issues,probably too busy proofreading my posts.liberals lie to the world,but I believe whats worse is you lie to yourself.im betting i wont get A SINGLE FACT out of you guys next posts,but likely more third grade insults about my punctuation.what lost souls you are

broiler-i really hope youre being facetious. i hope you are not that paranoid delusional.that is dangerous.a plant!you gotta be kiddin me! state just ONE FACT about our administration that makes you liberal…JUST ONE!youve had three post now and all youve managed to do is notice my typos…Im sorry I didnt proofread my post but I was busy saying something that makes sense-something you have no experience with.give me ONE SINGLE GOOD IDEA that the liberals have…what is their agenda besides hate-mongering,race-baiting,and basically standing in the way of GOOD ideas,like social security reform,repeal of the estate tax,etc.Give me ONE GOOD LIBERAL IDEAL.rack your brain.

Broiler and Gladrob-please see my previous post.
LMFAO…you guys remind me of the muslims when the pope said thet were violent.I think they said WE ARE NOT VIOLENT AND IF YOUCALL US VIOLENT AGAIN WE WILL BURN YOUR CHURCHES! you two are really funny…LMFAOLMFAO!!!!
Did you read it?if you did and,you have a little brain left you will see what I mean!not one fact!what a bunch of loooooosers!

Snap!

Well, done Broiler. I wish I had noticed it.

“i relly could write a book” - big Al

The spelling of “really” eludes you and yet “islamofascists”
is right in your wheel house. You could write a book but
who could read it? I guess the “No child left behind act”
left you behind.

“and btw Im no “plant” LMFAO” - big Al

On the contrary Al, you are vegetation.
Those abbreviations tell me you’ve spent too much
time in the teenage chat rooms. Run into any Republican
congressmen Al? Come back when you’re ready to contribute
at the grown up table.

You’ve done nothing but bad mouth and lambaste.
Problem is you’ve run into the “lambastard”.
All of your rants have been met with intellectual replies.
You have no effectual counterpunch so you leave topic
and bad mouth. I’ll cut to the chase with you.
Drop the intellectual premise and “let’s get it on”!

That’s not what you want is it? You wanted to blow
in here and bully your thoughtless opinions into
revered status and walk away gloating. That didn’t
happen. I believe thereÂ’s room in the Sean Hannity
forums where you’ll be labeled a “great American”.
YouÂ’ll find comfort in the fold of the brainwashed.

I knew it..you libs are all the same.when hit with facts,you resort to name-calling and ranting. and btw Im no “plant” LMFAO that shows how illogically paranoid you libs are-Im just a regular old guy,and I am most definitely black. Incidentally, I quoted many a REAL FACT there that you were reluctant to refute.anyway im done playing w/the kids for now.Gee whiz you guyz are lost. I actually feel pity for you misguided souls. most libs arent evil,just feel slighted for whatever reason and the Democrats feed on your fears and brainwash you to accept lies as truth.Look at yourselves and realize you are slowly becoming communists even without your knowledge.(anyone hear ever heard about the Jacobin movement?)i doubt it.Instead of hurling insults,please try to remain objective and look at FACTS only and you will realize youre being duped….you LIBERALS!

“liberalism:
n.  1. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be able to help himself or herself.
2. The state of being in which someoneÂ’s mind is so open their brains have fallen out.

see also: illogical, hypocritical, unAmerican, cowardly, communist” - big Al

ThatÂ’s some definition Al. YouÂ’ve given me all the ammunition I need.

“I ain’t for abortin’ no babies Miss Scarlet,
Ize just for abortin’ big Al’s nuclear proliferatin’ ass!”

Oh, I’m sorry Al. That “nuclear” word is what you phony,
down home, uneducated, conservative, Republican folks call “nucular”.

Come out of your taxi big Al. I’ll waste your neo-con man time 24/7!
You’re a plant and you’re a phony! There are no taxis are there Al?
Make sure you keep your lies straight Al. How’s the “hood” big Al?
YouÂ’re the un-American big Al! Go back to your handlers and ask them
what you should say next. You know, those people youÂ’re sitting next to.
I called you out phony and youÂ’ve slipped up. Look at your quote up top.
You actually capitalized correctly and left spaces after commas. You dropped
the ball fellas. Vigilance and attention to details, thatÂ’s the ticket. But not
the conservative ticket.

There is no “big Al”, just a few college kids screwing around.
Or maybe a few RNC goons. WhatÂ’s the difference?

Gotcha! Move on morons!

Wash your faces, lay off the sugar, close your flies, comb your hair,
mind your manners and maybe one day youÂ’ll get a date with (heaven
help her) a woman or a Republican Congressman.

“FACT?if we truly want to make friends in the middle east,we should do like WW2 and nuke a few cities,tell their citizens,see look what will happen if you dont get rid of your fascist leaders.it worked w/the Japanese!” - big AL

Here’s a fact for you, I have been a conservative
my entire life. Voted that way, opinions that way,
right up until they did the demolition job on the
Twin Towers. I guess they were telling us “that’s
what will happen to you if you don’t let us plow
the field for Haliburton and the oil companies”.
They had me fooled but it’s not too late to learn.
Why shouldn’t the rest of the world be afraid of
us? I’m afraid of us! How ‘bout we nuke your ass
big Al?

I live just outside NYC, I saw the smoldering hole the
day after. I had a friend in NY emergency services who
retired after the clean up because of what he saw and
what he didn’t want to be party to. He got the hell out
of here and advised me to do the same. He said if “we”
did this once, we’ll do it again.

And “big al” if we nuke a few Middle Eastern cities
where will the rest of us live? Our entire country has
already given in to buying bottled water because
the ground water in most areas isn’t fit to drink.
WeÂ’ve got cities with polluted air advisories on
the nighlty news. Done any fishing in Chicago Al?
What friggin’ planet would you have us live on next
after you “nuke a few cities”? But that’s the conservative
way, we use it until we’ve used it all up. The atmosphere,
ocean, land, oil, food, lives, it’s all ours for the taking
as long as we have the nuclear football.

Just for fun Al, do a little research on “Old Abe Lincoln”
and you’ll find he would have put you on a reservation.
Yep, free but segregated. You wonÂ’t learn that in “the hood”
you phony! Yeah phony, you’re not black and not from
Chicago!

You’re a plant and I’m calling you out! You act like you
don’t know the rules of grammar or where the space bar
or caps key are located but then you miraculously find
the caps key to capitalize entire phrases for emphasis.
Nice try but you’ve been found out you lying phony!

“please people wake up!” - big Al

I did wake up Al and saw that there’s a wolf in
Republican’s clothing. Now go register under another
blogging name so we can all find “big Al” again.
It’s a lot like where’s Waldo. Instead of looking
for the geek we’ll be looking for the creep.

Have a “beautiful day in the neighbor"hood” Al!

hey people, “Big Al’s” an idiot so blow him off…answering him is a waste of time because people like him will NEBER, EVER get it! that why we’re in the shape we’re in now, because people give credence to what this numbnuts and his ilk have to say. he’s the true minority in an enlightened society. The man is stunted.

liberalism:
n.  1. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be able to help himself or herself.
    2. The state of being in which someone’s mind is so open their brains have fallen out.

see also: illogical, hypocritical, unAmerican, cowardly, communist

Whew, I’d hate to be around when YOU start ranting and raving. Hey Al, thanks for your little family history. IMO your dad is smarter than you, but maybe that’s just the way it is. We all know GW doesn’t have all his oars in the water. See now you’ve got it all wrong, FDR’s economic system clearly stated it would take 40 to 50 years to really kick in. So Reagan doesn’t get the credit. LOL. You sure got everything figured out and ironically most everyone else is lost. Maybe you’re right and I should just ignore all the boldfaced lies i hear the repubs spew on a daily basis. Gee wiz, then life would be oh so rosy. Hate to break it to you Al, but PARTIES CHANGE and since you obviously haven’t had both eyes open for the last decade I’ll help you along. THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS NOT CONSERVATIVE ANYMORE. Man, I have to go back to this for a sec… So let me get this straight, you are giving the credit from Clinton’s balance budget and his surplus to Reagan???? You’re joking right? And one more thing. Your obvious hatred of liberals is clouding your critical thinking. Oh and I’m 44 years old, self made, WELL into 6 figures with a beautiful wife, 2 kids and a house on the beach in so. cal., so you can take your “youngster” remark and stick it up your incredibly tight ass.

helorat
very well said.

helorob-
very well said.

FACT?lost count:the islamofascists have already declared war on us.and we really have nothing to fear except a liberal getting control of our country,much like the Romans who really were so arrogant as to believe that they could make friends of their attackers(check your history)as they feared   the great Roman empire(whatever)so much.
FACT?if we truly want to make friends in the middle east,we should do like WW2 and nuke a few cities,tell their citizens,see look what will happen if you dont get rid of your fascist leaders.it worked w/the Japanese!
i relly could write a book but most of you libs dont bother to read anything but fiction. i truly believe minds like yours are becoming more and more of a threat to national security,simply because in America people decide what happens and if enough people dont know the FACTS,then well,were all in big trouble.please people wake up!

FACT 3-the Bush administration wrote a bill for social security saying that a measly 19 percent of your social security payments could go to investment portfolios of YOUR CHOICE and the demslibs voted it down.this bill would have single-handedly made our social security solvent,and advantageous to the people who contributed into it,not freeloaders who think theyr entitled to free shit.
FAct 4-the Reagan administration said that trickle down economics would take 10-15 years to work and it did,then Clinton took all the credit as if to say a hugely debtridden economy could be fixed as quickly as his administration came to power.

i can see that most of the people on who are either white and out of touch with reality or black and “well-educated” which is pretty much the same thing.
so before i start with FACTS,let me say:
I am a Black MAN from chicago,il,the south side,the ‘hood’. I am a small business owner,(taxis)a single father,and a card-carrying Bush supporter.yes,i do make over 100g a year and yes i do take my fair share of tax cuts.my father was a very conservative man in his ideals and outlook on life, yet he consistently voted democratic.i asked him why one day and he said “cuz were black and blacks vote democratic.“but when i began to study old newspapers and the like at my small,predominantly black catholic school library,i found out that democrats had overwhelmingly voted in opposition to the civil rights bill,and moreover that old Abe lincoln was a REPUBLICAN! hmmm i wondered what other facts have the democrats distorted…the list i found is too numerous to contain here,all of the lies under the guise of doing good for society.

anyway a little of my history but now here are the facts:
FACT 1- the Bush administration has more Blacks and minorities in it than any previous presidency in history.

FACT 2-the Bush/“neocons"have attempted to assist the poor in much more prudent ways than dem/libs-the only organisation in my southside ‘hood’that ever helped people out was the church,and this administration pledged federal dollars-over 6 bil-into church programs nationwide.

“IÂ’d say we are FOR getting rid of an ultra corrupt administration.“AND REPLACING IT WITH WHAT?
“ThatÂ’s right, because itÂ’s already been PROVEN that “trickle down enconomics” freaking doesnÂ’t work. How bout a new idea for a change, genius?” o yea dismantle the worlds most powerful economy,and then where would all those poor people who we do novthing for be?. “Progressive/liberals actually outnumber conservative/radicals”-well fools have always outnumbered the wise.gladrob,since you are resorting to ranting and namecalling ill just let your own word condemn you.gawddam u stupid!

oh and gladrob didnt the feds send 300bil to NO? what about the buses that couldnt get through because of nagin and that dem/lib governor down there that did nothing for two days?i could go on with the lib/dems mistakes down there but youre probly busy checking my spelling and pronunciations while i will check facts.fact is the stupid and corrupt dem/libs down there stole the money,left those people to die,then blamed it all on bush cause they knew they could get away with it.black people love to bash bush and NO is almost all black.im black btw,from 37th and Indiana st in chicago,the hood,i scratched my way up and yes im very conservative.and im tired of constant naysayers like you who do nothing.so go learn some facts,youngster.

BigAl says:  “just like your liberal friends you are unwilling to accept facts and you just stand in the way of progress with your complaining of what must exist in afree society without offering alternatives.Libs are the supporters of communist doctrine,and most of their conatituents are just like you-unable to accept the facts of life.”

Funny, it seems to me people like you are the ones unwilling to accept the facts and whining about progress. Progress moves forward. Aren’t you advocating going backwards. Oh, that’s right we aren’t learning anything through science we already KNEW things back in the good old days.

Facts of life, Al (and helorat) can’t accept:

1. Progressive/liberals actually outnumber conservative/radicals

2. The poor and elderly people in N.O. couldn’t just hop in their SUV’s and cruise over to their summer homes to avoid the hurricane. (Maybe the govt. could help? Hmmmm. Naw, fuck ‘em if they can’t do it themselves, right Al?)

3. A living, breathing woman has more rights than an unborn fetus. (Ouch, that one hurts, but progress is progress, you probably whined about that whole indoor toilet thing too.)

4. Conservatives traditionally stand in the way of progress.

5. Capital letters start sentences and you put spaces between sentences, oh and spelling. (Probably home schooled, eh?)

6. Trickle down theory is a really, really old and really, really bad idea. (But hey, suckers like you are still buying it and rich folks are digging that.)

7. It’s obvious today’s conservatives are lying to gain and hold on to power. (Unless, you are a slave you a conservative/libertarian dogma. Which would help you to be….how should I put this? ..... ignorant of the FACTS.

cheers

Re: Comment #27319 by helorat on 10/06 at 3:17 am
——————-
RE: #27189 by C Quil on 10/05

“Your belief is wrong. Ask them, if you find a member who is as misinformed as you, ask them to show you one case of that happening. Their leadership admits they specifically donÂ’t defend the 2d Amdt.”

My mistake. The ACLU doesn’t defend the absolute right for any citizen to bear unlimited arms of any type. It is neutral on this issue. The Supreme court backs the original intent of citizens to bear arms to form militias. Since then, it has mostly left it up to individual jurisdictions (i.e. cities, towns, schools, etc.) to ban firearms within their own confines. I guess the right NOT to be shot by someone also has as much weight as the right to carry a gun.
—————-
“Where have you seen Foley support NMBLA?”

My remark about Foley’s support of NAMBLA was meant to be sarcastic, but perhaps I didn’t make that clear enough. I have no idea what NAMBLA has on its website. If all they are doing is talking about it, sicko to sicko, I guess you can’t really do too much about it. If they actually DO something, then the laws are there to prosecute them.

Foley was harassing young pages for many years, though, so it appears that although he may not have been a card-carrying member of NAMBLA, he was engaged in illegal, and certainly unethical, activities. Other members of congress were aware of his activities but never did anything about it.

———
“(I live in FL (BTW) have been thru 3 Cat 3 plus hurricanes 4 more Cat 2 plus, and never taken a dime of un-Constitutional government hurricane relief or FEMA money.)”

This year must have been a great relief for you. The storm season has been pretty quiet in the Atlantic basin. If you do run into problems in the future, your fellow citizens will probably be there to help.
————-

“If our rights are not from God, then they must be from the only other higher authority (your logic not mine) the government.”

Our “rights” come from each other. The government delivers them for us. If it doesn’t, then elect one that will.
—————-

More to Al,

(“also im coming to this website just to see if i can find a liberal who stands FOR anything. theyre AGAINST Bush”)

I’d say we are FOR getting rid of an ultra corrupt administration.

(“AGAINST tax cuts for the rich”)

That’s right, because it’s already been PROVEN that “trickle down enconomics” freaking doesn’t work. How bout a new idea for a change, genius?

(“AGAINST the right to bear arms”)

Sorry, wrong again, we are FOR, FOR, FOR restrictions and tracking.

(“AGAINST a babys right to live”

No, we are FOR a woman’s right over her own body. It’s not a baby, it’s a fetus. Why don’t you think about how things would be if it was outlawed? Are you gonna tattle to the govt. if you suspect you neighbor seemed “fat like she was pregnant and now she’s not?” Nice world you got there.

(“and seemingly AGAINST the war on islamofascists”)

No Al, against our govt. lying us into a illegal preemptive war, against another country that was not a threat. And BTW, why don’t you define what exactly is “islamofacism”? We are getting closer to facism than they are. Try reading the definition of fascism.

(how can anyone support a group thats only FOR something as morally devoid as abortion.)

No, sorry, that is YOUR strawman Al, nobody is for abortion. What reasonable people are FOR is giving a woman control over her own body. Who the fuck are you to judge them? You act like you know something about how they feel.

“wake up and realize your actually being duped by communists in disguise. a free society will never be perfect, because like I said,“freedom aint free”)

Maybe you should freshen up on your current events there Al, because WE are the ones losing our hard fought freedoms. You really think it’s good that we consolidate more and more power into the executive branch (the president)? That we’re getting closer to have just a small handful of people/corp. that control all media? Govt. free to call you an enemy combatant and lock you away without any due process? Govt. free to go thru you financial records and even you house without ANY oversight.

People like you don’t just get this uninformed. It’s a choice you have made, clearly. You choose not to allow alternate views in. I’ve weighed the pros and cons of abortion. Outlawing would be horrible, restrictions are reasonable. Too bad you probably think the invisible man in the sky tells you it’s wrong. If so, I wonder why it didn’t even make his top ten list.

Please snap out of it Al. But I’m not counting on it.

to Al: Just so you understand, “liberals” (I prefer to be called a progressive), stand for human and social rights for ALL people and that includes you and the right for a parent to verbally express their grief as they see fit. Most of the most precious rights you enjoy today were put forth by eithr Reublican or Democratic “Liberals”.

“Liberals” do not stand for tax cuts that benefit only the rich, corporations that exploit their workers or a government that leaves the most vunerable in this society unprotected. That is what they stand for and it’s been no secret, you just refused to acknowledge it because you are so empty.I doubt that you or those like you have the mental capacity to understand anything not wrapped in an American flag or a dollar so you resort to name calling and yelling.

Al, why don’t you go home, put on a pointy hat and do whatever people like you do for fun.

Enough said to you sir.

To (big?) Al,

You seem pretty arrogant considering you say:

“if halliburton,inc ... in taxes libs say that is unfair. but it is only prudent. while the corporation supplies jobs and engages in research or whatever,you would probably just spend your 25g on frivoltie (cars, boats, suvs). tax cuts for the wealthy are not only,prudent but necessary.”

Geez, what a stupid statement. So, Al, since we (people with functioning brains) are talking about WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS, how do you suppose THEY are spending their savings? On really necessary things like rent or food or shoes for their kids? Or maybe boats, bitches and golf trips?

Please, oh please Al, tell me you aren’t that stupid.

I think it’s time to put the blame on God.
The Judeo/Christian one to be specific.
If he hadn’t created humans there would
be no violence. At least none perceivable
by humans.

We never would have had that Cain and Abel
crap if God was in the school system! And isn’t
that where this all started? At least that’s where
we could infer Mr. Rohrbough thinks this all started.

Mr. Rohrbough was SO incensed by evolution being
taught in the Columbine schools that he decided
to home-school his son. NOT!!! His statements are
an attempt to make sense of the unthinkable. According
to the Bible, the unthinkable has been going on
throughout history with and without the looming
specter of God’s punishment.

The Bible is not the answer to moral problems
although it seems a partial history of humans
developing a universally acceptable moral code.
(There were obviously other parallel books and histories.)
Most of the billions alive on the planet know
how to play nice with others while a few, for
whatever reasons, have not evolved morally or
have been excluded from the “playground” and
will extract their revenge for such.

edgarfield-so what should be done?stop complaining or go live somewhere else.

ALs alarm clock,just like your liberal friends you are unwilling to accept facts and you just stand in the way of progress with your complaining of what must exist in afree society without offering alternatives.Libs are the supporters of communist doctrine,and most of their conatituents are just like you-unable to accept the facts of life.

also im coming to this website just to see if i can find a liberal who stands FOR anything.theyre AGAINST Bush,AGAINST tax cuts for the rich,AGAINST the right to bear arms,AGAINST a babys right to live,and seemingly AGAINST the war on islamofascists,it seems to me.how can anyone support a group thats only FOR something as morally devoid as abortion.wake up and realize your actually being duped by communists in disguise.a free society will never be perfect,because like I said,“freedom aint free”

als alarm clock:read all of the posts advocating gun control.then check your lib pols opinions on it.there has been a liberal movement going on in america for years pushing gun control.this is totally unAmerican.as for tax cuts for the rich-they only make sense;if halliburton,inc [pays 30 bil in taxes but it only amounts to 5 percent of its total revenue,and you who make 100,000 pay 25,000 in taxes libs say that is unfair.but it is only prudent.while the corporation supplies jobs and engages in research or whatever,you would probably just spend your 25g on frivolties(cars,boats,suvs).tax cuts for the wealthy are not only,prudent but necessary.thats why the libs do it too.they just lie about it to appease idiots like you.wake up dude the people at the top of the liberalist movement lie about everything necessary because,well the truth is sometimes painful and Americans wont vote for the truth.thats the bottom line.

This Amish shooting was one of many tragedies
that have occurred since the beginning of this
republic. Were there killings, depravity and
such in the 1800’s? Yes but the media of the time
did not report or promote such events. I recall
a Texas tower shooting in the 1960’s and the moral
fiber of the entire country was not called into
question. You didn’t hear: “There’s too much God
speak in our school systems. That’s the cause of
this. All of that “eye for an eye” and stoning
people in the Bible.”

This man is obviously distraught and we can sympathize.
We can’t make blanket changes to the freedoms of
the population based on a few wackos. Enlightened
thinking did not kill those Amish children although
the conservative factions of this country would
have us believe that. What’s next? Perhaps evolution
caused Foley to IM pages and inquire as to what
they were wearing. Maybe evolution caused Abu Graib.
Not!!!

All evolution did was to show us what limb on the tree
of mankind the psychos and sickos are perched.

RE: #27189 by C Quil on 10/05

Your belief is wrong. Ask them, if you find a member who is as misinformed as you, ask them to show you one case of that happening. Their leadership admits they specifically don’t defend the 2d Amdt. Do you show such blind faith in God? Or only socialist groups bent on destroying America, (Check the history of Roger Baldwin if you do not “believe” it is their goal)

The ACLU is currently defending NBLAÂ’s right to maintain websites detailing how and where to find underage children to abuse and how to avoid prosecution. Where have you seen Foley support NMBLA? Show me. I think you are a typical leftist liar who ignores reality to fit your twisted view of the world.

You are like gladrob in Comment #27224 by gladrob on 10/05 you lie to to spread your propaganda. We donÂ’t have 1,000,000 police to lose http://www.iacp.org/faq.htm. You think the government is the solution to everyoneÂ’s problems. People have no responsibility for choosing to live 10 feet below sea level and not evacuate with the most monstrous hurricane ever seen headed for them, and I must pay for it??!! How stupid! 40,000 life saving rescues of fools after Katrina delay responding to others and you blame Bush. Your right we should have let the 40K die. (I live in FL (BTW) have been thru 3 Cat 3 plus hurricanes 4 more Cat 2 plus, and never taken a dime of un-Constitutional government hurricane relief or FEMA money.)

You say “I thought the law and good government were truly effective in preventing police power of the state.” No more telling words were ever spoken. WOW! Thank you! I could not have made my point better. The mantra of the Socialist Left “The Government is the solution to our problems.” “People have no responsibility for themselves.”

I noticed no poster took issue with the fact that the people in the 2d Amdt are the same people as in the others. You want “settled law” when it is settled your way; until then the Constitution is an outdated document black robed dictators can discover anything you want in, that was never there. It is a living document but only by the legal process built into it, amendment. SS (Secular Socialists) do not care about the law, they care about their own power. A phrase in a letter Jefferson wrote is more powerful then the words he carefully crafted in our founding document. If you do not believe in God so be it, but it is a necessary legal concept in our society. If our rights are not from God, then they must be from the only other higher authority (your logic not mine) the government. What the government gives the government can take away. Not for me.

The net has allowed every weirdo to find a kindred spirit. Whether it is button collectors who are harmless, or SS wackos. That is why left wing blogs have proliferated, and Air America has died; because most Americans, as stupid and ill-informed as they are, won’t even buy their socialist drivel. Stay in your little inbred blogs, abort your babies, marry members of your own sex, and see if you can import your next voting block with illegal immigration. You guys are sick. As Bugs Bunny said “Gee Mac, these guys are way too smart for us. We better get outta here!”

Below is an editorial about this wacko’s irrational views and the stupidity CBS exhibited in their zeal to be “politically correct” by airing the piece.

CBS Evening News hands religious lunatic a mic

No grief-stricken parent should be given carte blanche to promote whatever agenda he or she wants. Not Cindy Sheehan and definitely not the nutbag in question. All people and all views are subject to criticism.

Response to Comment #27131 by big Al

Where do i start?

1. Don’t think i heard anyone say all guns should be rounded up and no more right to bear arms. How about some backchecks? Is that too much for you to deal with Al?

2. How come everytime I heard “dumb candyasses” I think of AWOL Bush and five deferment Cheney.

3. Hitlers first move was to identify all gun owners?? I’m thinking his first move was to LABEL THE OPPOSITION PARTY TRAITORS. Sound familiar?

4. You say, wake up libs cause freedom aint free. And now I’m thinking about TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY DURING WARTIME. Maybe you’re right it aint free, it’s a great money making opportunity.

5. You said: “realize you’re being conned.”  And I say EXACTLY Al, exactly.

To R A Earl:
    You are exactly right, oh my God I have never been so convinced by such a rambling, brainwashed and incoherent mess in my life…

Well, not really.  You completely missed my point, No one of a different political belief was allowed to refute Cindy Sheehan on the basis of her grief, no matter how insnae she sounded, anyone remember her cry to withdraw from occupied New Orleans?  All that I was trying to say is that this Rohrbough guy deserves the same treatment on the same basis that Cindy Sheehan was given.  On that basis I called you all a bunch of F’ing hypocrites.  It still stands.

Oh and for the record, I don’t agrre with Rohrbough.

Another well said post from mediamatters:

To blame the moral collapse (if there is one) of this country on evolution is blaming Nature for crimes made by Man. Blaming abortion for actions taken by individuals, who have never been affected or touched by abortion, is ignornance but not arrogance.

I would blame the Federal government that under the Bush Administration which has cut and severely reduced funding to schools to stop intruders and terrorist attacks like this from occuring. I would blame the Republican congress for cutting care for mentally handicapped and indivuals in need from cheap and cost effective treatments for the mentally ill (DidnÂ’t another menatlly ill individual just neter the Capitol building the other week). I would blame the Republican Congress that has taken 1000,000 police officers off the streets in communities throughout our nation and replaced them with gangs and thugs. I would blame a Republican Administration and Congress that fails to respond to the needs of citizens in need after a major hurricane. And an Administration and its officers that continually lie in the face of the truth and perpetuate a state of lawlessness not only in Iraq but here at home as well. A Republican Administration that prides itself on being cozy with the gun lobby and supporting laws that loosen regulations on purchasing and using guns in this country. While we have an Administration more concerned with prayer in schools, gay marriage bans and ill conceived foreign wars based on lies you wonder where the moral failure comes from.

- edgarfield

But he was brought on to the segment to talk about the loss of family, and loved ones, and instead, railed against what he perceives is the downfall of America, abortion and evolution (I could name a whole bunch of other stuff, but will digress for right now).
Here’s a post I thought was good from mediamatters:

Nobody said he couldn’t say what he said. And everyone on here railing about how his “free speech” was impinged should look again possibly. It wasn’t. He wasn’t. And as long as we adhere to the Constitution of the United States (which because of the current administration, we’re more and more not adhering to it), we’ll all have free speech to say what we want.

But remember, if you say something bad about W, you’re for the terrorists and could disappear to Gitmo.

- magnolialover

To Sabotai #27145…

I don’t think anyone here has ignored or discounted this parent’s right to grieve his son’s murder.

But look at what he’s reported to have said. There’s NOTHING there that even refers to his feelings about his loss. It’s all a lambasting, on religious grounds, of a society that dares to point out that the Emperor Has No Clothes… that God, while the concept may be of importance to some, is NOT in charge of creating the rules of American society. Nor should he be. It’s bad enough to have a country that has twice elected a fool who thinks he’s a king… do you really want us to now appoint as Head of State, an IMAGINARY God?

Mr. Rohrbough’s grief is not denied in this forum. His beliefs are his to own and the consequences of believing as he does are his to deal with. If he chooses to blame society’s rejection of God for the death of his son, that’s his choice. It’s not a rational choice, in my opinion, but it’s his! No one else is under any obligation to agree with his views… just as you are not obliged to agree with mine.

Re:27084 V. Rodriguez

I didn’t see anyone advocating that Mr. Rohrbough does not have the right to speak his mind, however narrow and uninformed he may be. I am a lawyer and a member of the ACLU, and although I disagree with what Rohrbough says and the way he thinks, I would gladly represent him against any attempt by the government to suppress him saying what he wants. Whether or not CBS should allow him to use their airtime is another matter. Based on your comments, I’m not sure that you understand the difference.
I also enjoy the right to debate his ideas in a public forum, in whatever way I see fit. In fact, I welcome the airing of such specious ideas in public. As long as people are willing to listen to reason, then reason will change their mind. However, as Thomas Paines said :“To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead.”

Comment #27111 by helorat:

    “BTW isnÂ’t it your secular leftist secular     humanist ACLU types that are always defending NMBLA. I thought you guys were tolerant, and loved pedophiles, or is it only homosexual pedophiles?”

——-
I believe that the ACLU defends the 2nd amendment right to bear arms. It’s an old amendment to an even older constitution and they’re behind it, as far as I know. The only official support I’ve seen recently for NAMBLA are Republican Congressman like Foley, although there are probably more. Time will tell.
—————-
    “The 2d Amendment and individual firearms ownership is the only truly effective counterbalance to the police powers of the state.”

I thought the law and good government were truly effective in preventing police power of the state.
—————-
Comment #27084 by Victoria Rodriguez:

    “Liberals make me sick…[Liberals] just canÂ’t handle opposition after controlling the media (and still controlling it) for decades.”

They have? I wonder why there’s been a huge rise in the left-wing blogosphere, then, if the “liberal” viewpoint, whatever that may be, is adequately covered by regular newspapers and television stations?

The poor deranged man who lost his son in Columbine DID speak freely. He’s an expert on how terrible it is to lose a son. His reasons for why it happened, however, just don’t add up.

Comment #27084 By Victoria Rodriguez.

We are afraid of extreme conservatives like you!  It is the extreme conservatives in our society like you who are “my way or the highway”
type people.  Anyone who does not agree with you is a liberal.

“You want free speech FOR LIBERALS ONLY! No opposing view can ever be heard, ever”  that is bullshit and you know it. 

How about or current situation:
*If you are against the war you are un-American
*If you disagree with bush you are a traitor.
If you disagree with bush (on any subject) you are soft on terror.
*If you want to know the truth about republican internet sex scandal you are a liberal conspiracy nut.
*If you are a democrat you must not be a Christian??
*If you ask questions about policy or events you are a “playing politics”

These are the conservative rules we currently live under you ignorant mindless glob.

“The whole point of this “Free Speech” segment is to air opinions that may be controversial, that some may disagree with. Liberals just canÂ’t handle opposition after controlling the media (and still controlling it) for decades.”

Yes, free speech goes both ways.  But, by the very act of “ripping” liberals for responding with their opinion (which is free speech) you are guilty of the very thing you are condemning.  Think before you open your mouth.

And if you ask 50 republicans who control the media you will get 50 who say democrats.  If you ask 50 democrats who control the media you will get 50 who say Republicans.  This argument never holds water and you now it.  We all blame the media when we need to. 

While I do feel sorry for this guy who lost his son and hope it never happens to anyone, you seem to be missing the boat on the responses.  No one doubts his loss or grief, no one is trying to take his freedom of speech away, but one would logically expect him to get up and talk about the loss, his son, school safety, what we can do to prevent….  Instead, he gives a political/religous right wing speech that implies if god is punishing us for abortion and the theory of evolution.

I am neither a Democrat nor republican.  I have voted for both.  If the most “qualififed” candidate is republican so be it.  If he most qualified is a democrat so be it.

But nut jobs like you have found sanctuary in your conservative label and feel anyone who is not in your group is a bunch of liberals.  This is the root of all evil in American politics.

To answer your final question again, we are afraid of extremists like you. 

Sincerely,

Proud to be an American, but lately Embarrassed.

This clip is pretty fascinating, not because of what he says, but because of the assumptions and ideas his words are based on.

He seems to be suggesting that evolution is sort of a competing religion with its own implicit morality.  Could this be a compounded result of religious metaphor being broadly mistaken for literal truth?  That science itself is an alternative belief system?  That would explain a lot of the denial of facts we hear today, from evolution to global warming. 

Creepy.

I’m sorry for this parent but’s it’s obvious he was chosen to boost Couric’s sinking ratings. I stopped watching her aged schoolgirl act years ago, sickened by her “cuteness” and softball interviews. She really needs to go back to any morning show that will have her. She’s the Rachel Ray of news.

Why in the hell does anyone think that Couric is credible as a journalistic rather than the corprate “fluffer” she is. God she’s lame!

My advice to all of you: don’t waste your time watching here. There are better news programs airing in her timeslot.

This guy on CBS (While I feel sorry he lost his son) is a crack pot.

TO THOSE ON THE RIGHT who are so apalled that we didn’t like what Mr. Rohrbough said, I have this to say. No one here challenges his right to his opinion or his freedom to express it. Bravo for him.

What we lament is that CBS is responsible for helping to focus the public’s attention. However, instead of using that responsibility to focus on the complex nature of violence in America they chose to focus on one man’s willingness to blame that horrible tradegy on things in our society that he doesn’t like. As others have pointed out, all the other civilized societies have given up on legislating morality and they don’t have anything like our problems with violence.

That is not to say that we would want America to look to other countries to solve this problem. It is a uniquely American problem and will need an American solution. But to link it to red herrings like abortion and teaching evolution is shameless pandering to a superstitious uninformed audience.

I am sorry for his loss.  I cannot imagine the level of pain he and the other families have been forced to suffer. I shudder to think of such a thing happening to my children.

That doesn’t change the fact that he is an ignorant and irrational idiot looking for an easy and clear answer to such a difficult, horrible question: How could this happen?

Mencken once commented that for every problem there is a clear and obvious solution.  Clear, obvious and WRONG!

i hate liberals…all of u dumb candyasses who really believe gun control will curb violence are as usual on the road to hell w/your “good intentions"the founding fathers gave us the right to bear arms as defense against the state,just in case they decided to oppress the people.hitlers first move as chancellor was to identify all gun owners so he could eventually take them and with them,the freedom of the germans.you dumb ass libs need to wake up to the fact that frredom aint free,and the cost is your 100&#xsa;fety.free or safe?what idiots wake up libs…realize youre being conned.

Geez what happened to Maureen Dowd’s “Unassailable grief of a parent who has lost a child.”?  I guess this guy doesn’t get the same respect because his views on religion differ from yours…  You are all a pack of F’ing hypocrites.

Re: #27045 by Shawn Kilmer & #27002 by Darrel Rowledge

Pardon my rudeness Shawn, but are you deaf and blind? The other 99% of the mainstream media goes beyond counterbalance to overwhelm in this area. The reactions on this page show how unused to a true counterbalance you and your fellow secular socialists are. 

Re: #27021 by C Quil

The 2d Amendment and individual firearms ownership is the only truly effective counterbalance to the police powers of the state. The blatant fact that it is the Democrats who are the continual threat to individual ownership of firearms (and stoop so low as to use the heinous crimes of evil people like this to advance their anti-American agendas) is irrefutable proof of their totalitarian socialist goals.

Oh go ahead and tell me how the people in the 2d Amendment are different people then the people in the other parts of the Bill of Rights, and how it is perfectly obvious the people in the 2d Amendment really means the states and that infringed really means completely and utterly destroyed. Go ahead… make my day!

BTW isnÂ’t it your secular leftist secular humanist ACLU types that are always defending NMBLA. I thought you guys were tolerant, and loved pedophiles, or is it only homosexual pedophiles?

Liberals make me sick.

You want free speech FOR LIBERALS ONLY! No opposing view can ever be heard, ever.

The whole point of this “Free Speech” segment is to air opinions that may be controversial, that some may disagree with. Liberals just can’t handle opposition after controlling the media (and still controlling it) for decades.

Mr. Rohrbough, under the Constitution, has the right to freedom of speech. Why are liberals so against the Constitution and freedom of speech for all - or are you only interested in terrorists’ and criminals’ freedom of speech?

What are you liberals so afraid of?

Sherry Macon, I disagree with your analysis. You may be a liberal and good for you. How should we temper our criticism to not offend you? The man is saying asinine things. Hateful and inflammatory things. Things that have nothing to do with the topic, or at least he made no attempt to link the two.

To Sherry,

No one has denied his speech, athough some have commented on his being broadcast over “public” airwaves.  There are also comments supporting and recognizing his views and pain without endorsing them.  Maybe you were thinking of something else?

Is it any wonder that we have the level of violence in the U.S. that we do?  Most of which is based on diffrences of opinion.  The way some of you blasted Mr. Rourbough for his “beliefs” because they are alien to you and don’t fit into your grand scheme of God, you sound like one of the religous right.  Your all just a bunch of pots calling the kettle black. Remember freedom of speech?  Or does that right only belong to the liberals..of which, I am one.

Interestingly, Charles Roberts was a religious man, apparently embittered by the incongruity of his belief in a benevolent god and the meaningless death of his newborn daughter. Mr. Rorhbough chooses to ignore this glaring fact, and is simply parroting the old and hollow argument that belief in god makes people moral. It is more likely that his belief in a magical afterlife actually enabled him to execute those children, and his self-loathing, ostensibly the result of his inability to placate this vindictive god, caused him to condemn himself.
Mr. Rorhbough himself admits that he has entertained the idea that this god of his sure has some strange ways of showing that he is just, loving and merciful to his devotees. Clearly, he set that idea aside and decided the blame fell on science, as millions of ignorant Americans do every day. He obviously knows nothing of history if he thinks that before the 1980’s this country was in some sort of glorified moral position vis a vis his god, and that all this mayhem stems from the Roe decision. Only a white supremacist would even contemplate the idea. He will find, sadly, no solace in the perhaps imminent elimination of a womans’s rignt to choose, nor in his unanswered prayers to an absent god.

wow, I am literally aghast at this man’s statements, and as the other commenter mentioned, it is too bad that a big network like cbs is not going to counter it with alternate viewpoints which are more grounded in reality.

Let’s teach kids all about the god of Abraham, and of Jesus, that he is the ONLY way to salvation. forget what this might do to the Jewish, hindu, and muslim students that go to the same school… might they also be driven to bring weapons to school by such opposition?

And we all know that it is possible to have any moral fabric whatsoever as an atheist. We have to have the bible in order to learn such morales as women being impure and inferior, homosexuals being evil and burning in hell, beating your wife, etc etc

How irresponsible to air this guys statement without a counter following it up

This country is self absorbed in using what it doesn’t like to blame for what bad things happen.

Europe has an extremely low rate of churchgoers, and is often referred to as a post-Christian society. By the evangelical analysis their society should have lost all their moral compass. But they haven’t and we don’t bother wanting to know why? We just keep to our prejudices.

Whether or not one participates in religious practices is probably less important than the relationships that one has.

Europe is much more family oriented. Families stay close geographically. They stay within the moral practices of their uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. They develop and show their character, and stay within their “tribe”. Three of four of my grandparents immigrated from europe.

Here we strive to have ambition in careers, so we need to move many times, with only our atomic families for company, and the loneliness and insecurity grows. We have only occasional contact with our relatives. Feeling extended family peer pressure of living the moral life is much less. Here we want to impress with what we have, not what we are.

And in the end, some of those that live in small worlds try to compensate their self image by revenge on a world which is ignoring them. A weakness of a minority who do not have the support of their extended family.

Maybe I am wrong in this analysis, but other industrialized countries do not have our problems of violence and moral crises but for the answers we only look within, not without.

To cynner,

You’ve got to be kidding? CBS News has become the top enabling agent for the Bushies since Perky Couric took over. I’m sure that are more than a few Columbine parents who would contributed heartfelt and germaine commentary on the Amish school shooting. But instead, they put on a guy with an extreme and largely irrelavent axe to grind.

The segment of the electorate that embrace Mr. Rohrbough’s view are the very same folks who watch TV as there sole news source, mortgage their homes so they can spend more money on comsumer goods, buy oversized trucks and SUVs, vote republican, etc. Promoting their little world view fills the coffers of CBS and its advertisers. Journalism and democracy be damned.

“This country is in a moral freefall.”

People have been claiming this as “fact” since history has been recorded. But just a cursory glance at more “moral” times in the past, when GOD was literally pounded into everyone’s life 24/7, we were visited by every kind of human evil as it’s possible to envision. GOD, as far as I can see, is a completely INEFFECTIVE control on human behavior for the simple reason that GOD is a virtual construct… IMAGINARY!

“Morality” is that lovely, loaded perjorative that lights up the emotions of the unsophisticated like a neon sign. Mr. Rohrbough’s conception of virtue is HIS to own and abide by, and as with all other items of a “personal” nature, really valid for his use only.

He also offered: “And life has no inherent value.”

As much as I’d like to think otherwise, I see no valid evidence that this is NOT the case. HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of humans have come and gone on the face of this planet. Each, while here, was likely of some importance to a few loved ones. A HANDFUL, of rare brilliance, left behind literature or views of lasting value. Other than that, the reality as I see it is… 99.99% of us could disappear tomorrow and almost NO ONE WOULD EITHER MISS US OR GIVE A DAMN. The individual is almost irrelevant to society and completely irrelevant to biology.

But this doesn’t mean that I agree “there are no absolutes of right and wrong.” Of course there are… to live and participate in civilized society one needs to have a civilized attitude and set of behavioral self-limitations. I suppose some of this can be taught, perhaps even by some religions, but it’s my opinion that, short of locking individuals up for life in little boxes, the CRAZIES will materialize in every strata of organized societies to sometimes create mayhem and murder.

It’s also my opinion that it’s our society’s idiotic value system that emphasizes, equates and rewards the aquisition of wealth and power with “success” that CREATES unachievable (for most) competitive conditions that CAUSE certain people to “lose it.” When you realize you cannot compete, for whatever reason, according to society’s rules, you make up your own. That’s what being human seems to be all about.

It’s pathetic the number of people whose lives are completely absorbed in the daily battle to achieve and acquire… they don’t even know they aren’t LIVING… they’re just existing until they die! They’re not even aware they’re just being used as “grist for the mill” by an indifferent society - considered useful and worth the space, heat, oxygen and food only so long as they’re producing and consuming.

So to answer your question of “Why?”, Mr. Rohrbough, it’s my view your son and now the Amish children were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. A human who could not compete by the rules OUR SOCIETY SETS took it upon himself to “make his mark” according to rules of his own making. He was reacting to being treated with indifference and intolerance and abuse beyond his ability to tolerate such treatment. These folk WILL NOT BE IGNORED even if it’s the last thing they ever do.

Perhaps we should be teaching people that it’s wiser (and safer) to INCLUDE EVERYONE rather than to set up hurdles and barriers to exclude those considered undesirable. Perhaps we should consider taking a page from the Special Olympics handbook… EVERYONE GETS A MEDAL and RECOGNITION even if it’s only for being there and giving it a try. What do you think?

I’m sorry the man lost his son in a horrible shooting, but because he’s grieving, and probably slightly unhinged by the whole thing, I don’t see why he should be thought to be an expert on the reasons for the recent school shootings.

One thing that would decrease this type of incident is banning the sale of high-powered, multiple shot firearms to civilians. This would be a blow to the gun folks and armed-to-the-teeth crowd, but you simply can’t commit mass murder in a short time with an ordinary rifle or shotgun.

As for the sicko in Amish country, I wonder if the police are checking to see if he’s been spending a good deal of his time on child-porn sites. I simply refuse to believe that these are as difficult to close down as they keep saying. Since the intelligence community has time to spare checking ordinary people’s library records and phone calls, perhaps it could be put to better use chasing after these guys.

The guy obviously had pedophilic tendencies since he was a child. He probably never did anything about it after the incidents in his youth (even if they are true) until the child-porn stirred it all up again for him. He wasn’t intent on mass murder. He wanted to rape all the little girls first and then kill them, one last present to himself before he blew himself away. He just hadn’t banked on the police storming the place as they did.

Although I feel sorry for anyone who has committed suicide due to depression, I think these people are doing society a favor by killing themselves. What makes me loathe them even more (if that’s possible) is that they kill others before themselves.