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Arts and Culture

June Gloom With Lewis Lapham

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Posted on Sep 2, 2011
Illustration by Mr. Fish

By Mr. Fish

(Page 2)

Lapham: And you lose democracy that way because democracy is face to face and it’s argument with people unlike yourself. Television keeps you inside your own set of circumstances where there’s no risk, and dissent is a habit of mind that withers unless you use it.

Fish: I often wonder, though, if the problem of how we deal with democracy and human interaction isn’t so much about what we think, but how we think. Ultimately, it becomes a question of how viable a tool human consciousness itself is when it comes to both perceiving and comprehending reality. If human consciousness is only able to use objective reality as corroboration for its subjective notions about reality—which I believe is the function of consciousness—then we are doomed as a species because it means that there is no perception of reality, there is only opinion and how do you get everybody to have the same opinion?

Lapham: You can’t.

Fish: Right—so what happens when opinion becomes our only concept of reality?

Lapham: It’s an epistemological question: How do we know what we think we know?

Fish: And that’s how we wind up using something like capital as a unifying principle instead of some human element that cannot be manipulated.

Lapham: You see a very clear demonstration of that in what’s now happening in Wall Street. Here you have these guys who have been pretending that they know what they’re doing, or that they’re not stealing, or that there is somehow some substance in these entirely fictional debt instruments. They wish to preserve the facade. Our money is only worth anything as long as we believe it is. Money is the great abstraction. Schopenhauer said that, “Money is human happiness in the abstract; he, then, who is no longer capable of enjoying human happiness in the concrete devotes himself utterly to money.” Again, it’s nothing.

Fish: And yet we’re convinced that we can’t afford to engage in self-preservation as a species, as if self-preservation had anything to do with capitalism. I mean, why is it necessary for us to fundraise before we can even attempt saving those most in need of humanitarian assistance, for instance, or to prevent some environmental catastrophe from happening? How has it become logical for us to refrain from doing all that we can to prevent self-annihilation without first squaring our attempt with an economic philosophy? When did peace, love and understanding become incorporated? Again, it may be a problem of human evolution and the fact that consciousness, itself, is flawed, particularly if our consciousness is blinding us from suicide.

Lapham: Right.

Fish: And, getting back to what you were saying about McLuhan and the electronic media: As long as technology remains sexy to people it will justify the mechanism of industry that seeks to present itself as an addiction to a society that can never be satiated. So then the question becomes how can we make agrarian society more sexy to people? How do we make wooden carts and dirt roads and no air conditioning preferable? Wasn’t that part of the ’60s mentality, figuring out how to get back to the garden?

Lapham: And that concept is now what they mean when they talk about sustainable growth. The world’s population is now 6 billion people and the estimates show 9 billion people by 2050. Now the thing that saves Europe in the 14th century is the Black Death. It kills one-third of the population and what you find, if you measure the curve, is that Europe can’t feed itself before the plague arrives. It’s starving. Take away a third of the people and suddenly there’s more work, wages go up, land gets cleared, things improve. It’s like democracy—democracy only really works in a relatively small circumference.

Fish: Which is mirrored by the anarchist ideal—the idea that given a small enough society where people’s natural desires are allowed to flourish and nobody is forced into doing anything that they don’t want to do, the tribe will be able to sustain itself. It’s really just an extension of the family model, where your natural tendencies are not to take food out of your own child’s hand, or your mother’s hand, or your wife’s hand. It’s when the community is allowed to bloat to a ridiculous degree, where the tribe is suddenly populated more by strangers than by those who you actually have some intimate knowledge of, that you run into problems.

Lapham: We need some new big idea. The Enlightenment ideas are played out. Think of all the ideas that are dead and gone. What has to come along in the 21st century is a new uber myth/assumption/idea. There’s a parallel, although no parallels are exact, as you know, between the death of Alexander, roughly 300 B.C., and the birth of Christ. And the birth of Christ rises at the same time as the Roman Empire—the old Roman Republic, after 100 years of civil war, gives way to the empyreal idea, in more or less the same few years that Christ is alive and well and walking the roads of Palestine. But in the 300 years between the end of the death of Alexander and the birth of Christ, there’s no guiding idea and the only thing that counts is money. There’s no other value. You don’t get that much civilization coming out of that setup. I expect some idea to come out into the consciousness of the 21st century that will allow for some notion of sustained balance as opposed to unlimited growth.

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By Peter Menkin, September 8, 2011 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mr. Lapham is always interesting when interviewed, and certainly to read. It isn’t surprising to me that I again enjoyed another piece interviewing the man. In fact, as a Religion Writer, I wrote an article about Mr. Lapham and his new quarterly, “Lapham’s Quarterly,” and this is the link:

http://www.religiousintelligence.org/churchnewspaper/blogs/laphams-quarterly-a-look-at-lewis-h-laphams-new-magazine-usa/

A friend sent me an email with this interview, and I thought to subscribe to the newsletter, too, after reading it. I did want to read more of what he had to say about the new internet writing work, even the social media. Nonetheless, I can’t go too far wrong hearing again about Marshall McLuhan, a favorite of my youth (I turn 65 in October, 2011). When I met Mr. Lapham, who visited me in my home around 1982 or so to talk some writing business about his Harper’s column, I was delighted with the handsome and so gracious Mr. Lapham. This was north of San Francisco, and at the time I did hold the title, Contributing Editor. I did not think of him as an alternative journalist, a dissenter, but mostly as a fine writer and even great editor of his generation. I found him though a plutocrat, genuinely able to relate to others not of his class, of course. What else to expect of a man who listens so well.

Probably, for me, what was in its way a kind of spellbinding attraction to his regular Harper’s magazine column and that he always had something to say, and said it well, was that he continued the tradition of Harper’s as a first rate literary magazine. No small feat, itself. I also had the acquaintance, this time in my 20s and youth, of William Whitworth who left The New Yorker for The Atlantic. The two magazines in those years of the 80s ceased being sister magazines. An event I personally mourned, but Mr. Lapham sought. Mr. Whitworth, as most will agree, is another of his generation’s great editors (and in case you didn’t know, he is a fine writer, too. Something of a loss for us all when he chose not to write, but be solely an editor).

I want to add that I learned a lot from William Whitworth, who was willing to talk about being a writer and writing. Even so, I was kind of desirous to learn from Mr. Lapham of such things, too, and think it was an important opportunity in my life for which I am grateful. His acquaintanceship and even loyalty of friendship is more than admirable, it is an esteemed characteristic.

So I dash off these personal notes to say that Mr.Lapham’s willingness to help writers, allow himself to be interviewed (when I think he, too, finds a learning and broadening experience in the act) is always something I’ve looked forward to. Thanks Mr. Fish. Good job. I only wish it went on longer and wonder how much time you both had together in the interview work itself.

Peter Menkin
Mill Valley, CA USA
(north of San Francisco)

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By miroslav, September 6, 2011 at 8:06 pm Link to this comment

Gaseous b.s. from both Lapham and his
interviewer.

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By Mike789, September 5, 2011 at 5:07 am Link to this comment

A Lapham fan myself, since 1984, I’ll echo the commentators who were looking forward to an article featuring his trenchant wit and were met with Fish rap.

One redeeming notion dealt with “self-preservation”. Too bad Fish had not mentioned, in context, the Jungian notion that there be two major archetypes driving human behavior; Presevation of the Self and Preservation of the Species. They are not necessarily contervailing though I’m inclined to see a pernicious polarity in the emphasis of one over and above the other.

The idea of a “big idea” may have weight, but it has to be made convincing. Language does make a difference but the communicator is more important. TVA, InterState Hwy and Space were brought to the fore by unique communicators.

What is blatantly obvious is the contemporary penchant for communicating a systematic debunking of science and people believe it. The notion that the the media isolates the individual to my thinking ignores the source. Media, at it’s inception, was touted as an educational tool. We all know that notion has, for the most part, been usurped. It is not the forum, with the exception of C-SPAN, it could be. It’s not the arrow, it’s the indian.

Century-scaled projects will not be hailed by the Republicans who will not aknowledge the place of government. Private sectors will not converge to make them happen. Texas is burning, East coast flooding, and not a word of H2O has a fundamental resource to be managed on a grand scale. A pipe-line from the tar sands will get right of way legislation while the back-bone to a modern electical grid is back-burnered.

We’ve bought into the idea of a service-based economy where everybody has an idolated cozy cubicle with an e-mail address and a Twitter account when out on the street. These devices are nice and trendy but do not build barricades on K-Street, the actual source of over-spending. To a certain, we’re following the path of least resistance and it’s our own doing. We could organized product boycotts but we do time coordinatied choreographed dance routines en masse at Grand Central Station.

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By zonth_zonth, September 5, 2011 at 12:51 am Link to this comment

good discussion/interview.  Much better than the usual stream of consciousness fictional nonsense.

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By RobtOakley, September 4, 2011 at 6:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mr. Lapham hopes for some new big idea…? To some extent why isn’t “Do Unto
Others as you would have them do unto you” a big enough idea? Why re-invent
the wheel? Do we need to reinvent the wheel?

The maxim really does simplify things, and deepens them as well.

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By Queenie, September 3, 2011 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment

When my Harpers used to be delivered I couldn’t wait to get to a quiet place to read Lewis Lapham. Although we are worlds apart in class and education, I could always understand what he was saying. He seemed to speak in a universal voice that encompassed all human understanding. He probably still does although I haven’t read him since he left Harpers. My loss. I would love to ask him about his thoughts about the environment, post Fukshima Daiichi, and if the half life of the radiation spilling from those meltdowns doesn’t rate as the catastrophe he speaks about.

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By Robert LaRue, September 3, 2011 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Too much Fish, not enough Lapham.

How is it interviewers think that their readers want to hear from them instead of
their subjects?

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By Gordy, September 3, 2011 at 5:40 am Link to this comment

A new big idea will enable a further act in the drama
that is unenlightened civilisation, but we will then
need something even bigger and more sophisticated
still when the next crisis arises, like a
dysfunctional person moving onto stronger and
stronger drugs, more and more persuasive illusions,
and ever crueller hypocrasies, each time he hits
rock-bottom. Myths are evasions of cold reality, but
reality isn’t really cold - it just is. A life lived
without illusion, in contact with that unvarnished
reality, is not an attitude, aesthetic or philosophy,
is not, in external manifestation, the same for
everyone, and cannot be a banner for the masses to
unite under, because it can’t be reduced to a slogan,
idea or marketing message.

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By Beth, September 3, 2011 at 2:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I had hoped that the ever-increasing impacts of radical climate change(a.k.a. Global Warming)would be an irresistible big new idea embraced by humankind.

As the impacts are global, impersonal, and do not discriminate in any fashion, is the effort to prevent potential global calamity worthy of jumping to Topic of the Year? Implementing needed changes creates millions of jobs! Kismet!

We will all be affected. We are all able to participate in the attempts to decrease and prevent further and greater destruction. Perhaps it will take a few billion dollars more and forced relocation for millions more before reality truly has our undivided attention.

Call it misplaced faith in humankind, or an indulgence in optimism, but I think humans are up to this challenge. I see the incredible opportunities offered by international communication. Live satellite feeds and broadcasting, and the myriad methods used by almost all segments of Human Society for creating working and social relationships worldwide are putting the lie to the old fears of “foreigners”. Witnessing of official government and despotic behaviors, global discernment of acceptability or unacceptability as a Whole- a United Nations at Large- is a gamechanger. The fact that We COULD, If We CHOOSE institute global warming offset projects in a coordinated world-wide effort IS the “new big idea” referred to by Mr.Lapham in my opinion.

The fact that we are still indulging in wasting money, lives, and finite resources such as oil in an agony of misdirected human energy makes my skin crawl. We humans have a global energy transition to make. The developed countries are by definition those responsible for consciously altering the course of human development in this matter. We’ve created the problem.

In America we watch the impacts of Hurricane Irene and Tropical Storm Lee play out. We’ll see re-building in flood plains, not joint efforts to begin moving cities and towns inland and upland.

The Haboob dust storms of the Southwest may become the new “normal” as we steadfastly squander our water resources in order to live in regions never suited for human habitation. In the same breath we will develop nuclear waste sites over sensitive aquifers with no thought to the impacts on the health and lives of others, or we’ll poison the water with the impacts of mining or industry. We will not think preemptively in protecting or conserving our natural infrastructure and resources even now.

The super-cell storms, tornadoes, and hurricanes predicted by scientists decades ago are becoming our reality, and still we tolerate the for-profit Denialists and bow to the preferences of those so entrenched in their own habits of thinking that they refuse to make changes in their business processes. The abandonment, reform, or selective and limited use of toxic industries is needed.

We are now seeing the stumbling and financially neglected growth of smaller scale, environmentally sound manufacturing and services in some nations. Those peoples not beset nor advantaged by the overwhelming use of modern technology, whose impacts are irrelevant in the grand scheme, are suffering exponentially as myriad islands face the loss of their beaches, trees, and fish.

Progress will be too slow as the young people attempt that which the powerfully positioned in our society could easily initiate and support were they of a mind to participate constructively.

In this new century, Time, not money has the greater value. Collective human wisdom and creative endeavor are required. It is horrifying that thousands are flooded out, millions flee war, hundreds of thousands suffer the horrors of starvation, vast regions of lands burn during drought. 

We need a global conscious effort. We need to coordinate, cooperate, use money to progress, and technology to assist us in living sustainably on this planet. Quickly.

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By cpb, September 2, 2011 at 11:29 pm Link to this comment

I neglected to credit the quote that opened my last post - my bad - it was the entirety of recemt post by ‘still trying’.

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By News Nag, September 2, 2011 at 11:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

We may need ideas and activists or whatever, but here we need Mr. Fish to just shut up and let his interviewees talk.  Sheesh, his every interview is an elocution of his fears and recasting of his introspectory insights.  It’s not that I disagree with Mr. Fish.  It’s just that he needs to open up his own interviews for dissent and other streams of consciousness than his own.  Mr. Fish dominates where he should be recessive and entirely misses what could be fascinating tours des force from his interviewees.  It’s a nice trick he pulls, and pulls it well, but it’s a one-trick punting on the art of the interview.

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By cpb, September 2, 2011 at 11:19 pm Link to this comment

“We need something more than a new idea; we need people who are capable of thinking, sharing, feeling compassion, and taking responsibiliy for saving their world.”

Isn’t that sweet.

An honest examination of the global human condition would conclude that what we are lacking isn’t thought, sharing, feeling or compassion.  There is no ‘lack of compassion’ in this world, only the ugly truth that power diminishes compassion, holds it at arms length if forced to acknowledge it at all, and denies it at every opportunity.

Paraphrase:  We need people willing to take responsibility for saving their world..

Yes, we certainly do.  And there are peeps all over this beach ball struggling to do just that.  We just don’t hear much about them via the conventional channels. 

The same power that restricts the latter restricts the former.  Concluding that ‘nobody cares’ is just defeatist denial.  Understandable, but denial nontheless.

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By cpb, September 2, 2011 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment

“God save us from the fluous people.”

- Cripes

Fluous?  Really?  From urban dictionary:  fluous   n. the required or sufficient amount; without excess. (from fluere: to flow, in Indo-European roots)

eg.  I will do only the fluous amount of work neccessary to acheive a passing grade for this class.

Again I call troll.

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By cripes, September 2, 2011 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

God save us from the fluous people.

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By still trying, September 2, 2011 at 2:28 pm Link to this comment

We need something more than a new idea; we need people who are capable of thinking, sharing, feeling compassion, and taking responsibiliy for saving their world.

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By abikecommuter, September 2, 2011 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

Any solution needs to answer how. Do we suspend habeous corpus and rules against
torture to spill blood for our oil under their sand? To say that tribal solutions are anarchist
presupposes the violence of the present methodology as a means to acquire energy for
how we will feed ourselves and boxes in the concept of community. Food niches
coevolve with language and the articulated worldview.

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By kerryrose, September 2, 2011 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

A good interview is when the ideas of the person being interviewed are brought to light by insightful questions and good listening.  To acheive this, an interviewer must be more interested in the person he is interviewing, his ideas and motivations, than in his own ideas.

Mr Fish should watch some of the pros if he is truly interested in conducting interviews.  He may be more interested in using another person for masturbation, however.

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By gerard, September 2, 2011 at 11:45 am Link to this comment

Seriously, (IMO) Mr. Fish contributes more to this “interview” than the great Lapham (whose essays I always found both thought-provoking and very well-written).

Here, Mr. Fish seems to take leadership in a way that causes me to suggest that he delete Mr. Lapham in this instance and re-cast this piece as his own essay.  Then do another more “authentic” and gracious interview where he doesn’t upstage the person he is interviewing.

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By felicity, September 2, 2011 at 11:11 am Link to this comment

It was a black day when I read of the ‘retirement’ of
Lapham.  However, and Lapham would probably agree,
Harpers continues to publish thought-provoking
articles.  The August issue has an article, “The Age
of Enron,” - “grotesque bonuses for insiders;” “a
fawning press;” “bought politicians;” “average people
fleeced by scheming predators.”  Enron may be out of
business but the ‘business’ of Enron continues, in
fact seems to be gaining in clout should Republicans
have their way.

And, if McLuhan thought television was a vast
wasteland way back when, what would he think now that
it is no longer even fit for human consumption.

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By john Poole, September 2, 2011 at 11:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Even if a scenario evolves where one inherits the earth as an educated humble
person (one of the meek) one is still going to ponder the idea of a transcended
existence.  The Scrolls of Thoth won’t help much now nor will the Bible. We’ll create
another transcendent fiction to get us through out of an instinct for self
preservation.

Thanks to Fish and Lapham. They are doing good things. That is the best
contribution I can hope for.

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By Anarcissie, September 2, 2011 at 7:39 am Link to this comment

I don’t know if Jesus taught that all human beings had value.  The meek were to inherit the earth, yes, but only the good meek.  The bad meek were to be cast into the Lake of Fire.  In any case, after many centuries of Christianity, it turned out (as recounted in The Cunning of History, the most important book you never read) that a lot of human beings are superfluous, indeed, a burdensom excess to be shrugged off.  As Mr. L notes, it’s not a new thing—the Black Death and, later, world-wide imperialism and the colonization of the Americas saved Western Civ.

So should we just get on with it, or count on our little friends, the ever-mutating bacteria?  I’m sure they’ll come up with something impressive if we keep throwing Lysol on them.

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