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Arts and Culture

Zombie Politics: Dangerous Authoritarianism or Shrinking Democracy - Part II

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Posted on May 4, 2012
Peter Lang Publishing

By Henry A. Giroux, Truthout

This is the second of a two-part series taken from Henry Giroux’s “Zombie Politics and Culture in the Age of Casino Capitalism” (Peter Lang Publishing 2010), which first appeared online at Truthout. Read the first part here.

Needless to say, many would disagree with Wolin’s view that the United States is in the grip of a new and dangerous authoritarianism that makes a mockery of the country’s moral claim to being a model of democracy at home and for the rest of the world. For instance, liberal critic Robert Reich, the former Secretary of Labor under President Bill Clinton, refers to America’s changing political landscape as a “shrinking democracy.”[39] For Reich, democracy necessitates three things: “(1) Important decisions are made in the open. (2) The public and its representatives have an opportunity to debate them, so the decisions can be revised in light of what the public discovers and wants. And (3) those who make the big decisions are accountable to voters.”[40] If we apply Reich’s notion of democracy, then it becomes evident that the use of the term democracy is neither theoretically apt nor politically feasible at the current historical moment as a description of the United States. All of the conditions he claims are crucial for a democracy are now undermined by financial and economic interests that control elections, buy off political representatives, and eliminate those public spheres where real dialogue and debate can take place. It is difficult to imagine that anyone looking at a society in which an ultra-rich financial elite and megacorporations have the power to control almost every aspect of politics—from who gets elected to how laws are enacted—could possibly mistake this social order and system of government for a democracy. A more appropriate understanding of democracy comes from Wolin in his claim that:

[D]emocracy is about the conditions that make it possible for ordinary people to better their lives by becoming political beings and by making power responsive to their hopes and needs. What is at stake in democratic politics is whether ordinary men and women can recognize that their concerns are best protected and cultivated under a regime whose actions are governed by principles of commonality, equality, and fairness, a regime in which taking part in politics becomes a way of staking out and sharing in a common life and its forms of self-fulfillment. Democracy is not about bowling together but about managing together those powers that immediately and significantly affect the lives and circumstances of others and one’s self. Exercising power can be humbling when the consequences are palpable rather than statistical—and rather different from wielding power at a distance, at, say, an “undisclosed bunker somewhere in northern Virginia.”[41]

Wolin ties democracy not merely to participation and accountability but to the importance of the formative culture necessary for critical citizens and the need for a redistribution of power and wealth, that is, a democracy in which power is exercised not just for the people by elites but by the people in their own collective interests. But more importantly, Wolin and others recognize that the rituals of voting and accountability have become empty in a country that has been reduced to a lock-down universe in which torture, abuse, and the suspension of civil liberties have become so normalized that more than half of all Americans now support the use of torture under some circumstances.[42] Torture, kidnapping, indefinite detention, murder, and disappeared “enemy combatants” are typical practices carried out in dictatorships, not in democracies, especially in a democracy that allegedly has a liberal president whose election campaign ran on the promise of change and hope. Maybe it’s time to use a different language to name and resist the registers of power and ideology that now dominate American society.

While precise accounts of the meaning of authoritarianism, especially fascism, abound, I have no desire, given its shifting nature, to impose a rigid or universal definition. What is to be noted is that many scholars, such as Kevin Passmore and Robert O. Paxton, agree that authoritarianism is a mass movement that emerges out of a failed democracy, and its ideology is extremely anti-liberal, anti-democratic, and anti-socialistic.[43] As a social order, it is generally characterized by a system of terror directed against perceived enemies of the state; a monopolistic control of the mass media; an expanding prison system; a state monopoly of weapons; political rule by privileged groups and classes; control of the economy by a limited number of people; unbridled corporatism; “the appeal to emotion and myth rather than reason; the glorification of violence on behalf of a national cause; the mobilization and militarization of civil society; [and] an expansionist foreign policy intended to promote national greatness.”[44] All of these tendencies were highly visible during the former Bush administration. With the election of Barack Obama to the presidency, there was a widespread feeling among large sections of the American public and its intellectuals that the threat of authoritarianism had passed. And yet there are many troubling signs that in spite of the election of Obama, authoritarian policies not only continue to unfold unabated within his administration but continue outside of his power to control them. In this case, antidemocratic forces seem to align with many of the conditions that make up what Wolin calls the politics of inverted totalitarianism.

I think it is fair to say that authoritarianism can permeate the lived relations of a political culture and social order and can be seen in the ways in which such relations exacerbate the material conditions of inequality, undercut a sense of individual and social agency, hijack democratic values, and promote a deep sense of hopelessness, cynicism, and eventually unbridled anger. This deep sense of cynicism and despair on the part of the polity in the face of unaccountable corporate and political power lends credence to Hannah Arendt’s notion that at the heart of totalitarianism is the disappearance of the thinking, dialogue, and speaking citizens who make politics possible. Authoritarianism as both an ideology and a set of social practices emerges within the lives of those marked by such relations, as its proponents scorn the present while calling for a revolution that rescues a deeply anti-modernist past in order to revolutionize the future.


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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, May 23, 2012 at 6:58 pm Link to this comment

I didnt try to post anything after May 20th at 1:32, so nothing was censored. Read my last post(although since you never did why bother) and you will see I cleared out of writing on this thread, and signalled that you all would have the last word.

How my logging in to read posts on this thread could possibly trigger a notification to you I dont know. Actually i dont think that is possible, so i will follow the lead of our local intelligentsia. I too must concentrate on motive rather than dealing with supposed concerns. Now I take the moral high ground and expose something sinister in your motives thus: You claimed that i was writing posts when I wasnt, so I must conclude that you are merely playing a game just to force me to respond, and your sinister motive was that you wanted to make sure that i am reading your insults.

Thats all. Reduction complete and reduction final. You shouldnt have worried. When I stop writing on a thread I usually read everything you write, including the insults, criticisms and jokes. Your accusation that i wrote some sort of hyper-explicative that was intercepted or preempted by Truthdig was a new low.  No, I am not here to defend myself from the usual cascade of accusations in case you were hoping. Lets just figure out how to proceed.

Please recall that my posts here were deemed a negation which prevented the intellectual ascent you wanted to make concerning the so-called characteristics of fascism. Supposedly my posts distract from achieving your most lofty intellectual goals.

That is why I simply granted you the quiet space that you claimed you wanted. I stopped writing here so you could talk about fascism, but incredibly, unbelievably, my absence brings as many distractions for you and and as many insults towards me as when i was writing.

We need to fix this. Here is my solution. Not only will i stop interfering with your witchhunt for fascism by not writing on this thread, i am not going to read your posts on this thread anymore.

Now you must stop playing games. If you want to claim that you get notifications whenever i log in to read this thread, well, that wont be happening because i wont be logging in to this thread at all. I am knocking that childish excuse out of your hands.

If you are really serious about your quest to define conservatism as fascism then you shouldnt be distracting eachother from it. You may never get another chance like this again. In future on another thread i might never leave and then you wont be able to get anywhere. In the past you claimed to have never had a chance to attain the heights. Now is your chance. You have what you desire. Use it.

This is your once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Ascend to the mountains of glorious insight by defining conservatism as fascism, or whatever it is you were trying to do. I will not mock your failure, nor marvel at your success… because I wont be reading it.

Report this

By Peter Z. Scheer, May 23, 2012 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

Regarding missing comments—we’re looking into it. We are not intentionally
censoring anyone. We are launching a new comments system within the hour. I
don’t see how it can be related, though the timing is conspicuous. We’ll post more
about that when we launch it. Existing comments will remain, but you’re probably
better off re-posting the missing comments using the new system.

Thanks for your patience,

Peter

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 23, 2012 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

For the record, I find Ozark Michal annoying, though as She said annoying can be good, I prefer to see OM more as noise, just like the sound of all those cicadas keeping me up on a warm summer evening, to use Ozark Michael s own words ‘all you liberals’ are a problem because of ‘all you liberals’. 

Far as I can tell, OM has seldom if never offered a constructive comment nor a constructive disagreement, but he has become a fixture like that annoying pimple on me butt which servers little purpose but to annoy.

Damn, I really hope Om is not gone, I mean here posting in a physical posting sense, though I believe he has been gone in a mental sense for some time now.

I hear cicadas and slugs singing in me garden!

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, May 22, 2012 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, I received two Truthdig notifications of posts by Ozark
Michael but not one new post showed up. That was at least an hour
ago, way over the time when registered members’ posts usually show
up within minutes. I was concerned as it appeared a censure occurred
even before the post showed up!  That would be over the edge in my
opinion.  While there is often opposition on these threads, it is healthy
to use the comments on the forums as a sounding board to see if one-
self is just passing gas.  Also it is a good way to put one’s mind to the
test of other minds.  Let’s hope there was just some technical delay and
the posts actually show up in due time.  If the post or posts do not show
up in a reasonable time, I plan to write to inquire Truthdig or to express
my .  I know that they may not give a reason.  Your suggestion for OM to
rewrite a more succinct form seems a good one.

Report this

By elisalouisa, May 22, 2012 at 7:34 pm Link to this comment

From my mail I gather that Michael’s post did not make it to the thread.

How about a diluted version of what you had to say Michael?

Report this

By elisalouisa, May 21, 2012 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Shen. Your links do take one to the destination intended. Click on Shen’s link. The whole web page is quite informative.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, May 21, 2012 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

The Arnett link no longer works from your post, and the message
“HTTP Error 404.0 - Not Found - The resource you are looking for has
been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable” is
received when clicking the link.  But, it is not the case that it does not
exist, elisalouisa.  If one knows how to travel around the Internet, most
everything that still exists can be found, which I did by finding South
Asian Analysis Group (SAAG).  As a long time scholarly researcher, I
have a talent for finding stuff.  You have to copy and paste the follow-
ing webaddress in your browser address line:
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/paperindex.asp?currentpage=164
then scroll to Item #949, not #948 which is listed but with a
different title.  It is a diversion, wujabaleev?  Well I think it is a diversion
since the number 948 in the webaddress does not link from TD, at least
using a Safari Browser. The cutting pasting tactic works, yeowie kazowie! 
And if when you get there, you click on 949’s title “IRAQ WARS-WESTERN
MEDIA PROPAGANDA ARMS OF GOVERNMENTS AND CORPORATE
INTERESTS by K. Gajendra Singh (12/3/2004),” it is the very one you
posted!  If you click on that title, guess what?  Look at the browser
webaddress.  The webaddress in the browser line that comes up is yours!
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers10/paper948.html but
try to link to it from here, naw, it won’t work!  Aw, come on!  What the
F?  Yeah, something odd is ahappenin’.  Once at the article, scrolling
halfway down the article takes you to the discussion on Arnett!  It is
flabberghasting!  But, since I found it, I also downloaded it as a pdf, as
it is not under the control of copyright.  That’s a 5 Yups!  If anyone has
any interest I wish you luck that the link works as I’ve described.  They
did when I tested them.  Keeping information of articles like this from
the public makes me very angry.  It is a fascistic tactic and only adds to
the dossier against those who are accused of manipulating the truth of
news and other journalistic revelations.  Need an example, well here is
one!

Perhaps the reality of what is ebbing and flowing might be found, using
a Buddhist watching-the-breath technique try to see it at that precise
point where the change from ebbing to flowing or flowing to ebbing
occurs?

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By Maani, May 21, 2012 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller:

If they are actually “incinerating” protesters, then we are BEYOND fascism into Final Solutions!  LOL (sort of…)  I think you mean incarcerated or indicted or ?

Re ebb and flow, I can think of no better phrase, since the “balance” shifts in both small and, sometimes, large ways over time.  Still, if you have a better phrase, I’m not wedded to mine.

Peace.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 21, 2012 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

You know Mannie and all, I do not know which I prefer, the ebb or the flow? 

You may find this interesting; ties in with several of Britts COFs; http://tinyurl.com/7fjuunq

TD has an article telling about OWS protestors being incinerated as terrorists by the FBI, have I not read the article yet, the prison system seems to be doing quite well so may be a buy as a worthy investment like Facebook.

Ebb and flow sounds a bit passive to me, maybe we should call it something else? After a few tequilas and playing me bag pipes, I may come up with an option.

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By Maani, May 20, 2012 at 11:11 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller:

I had actually forgotten to thank you for your comment a few posts ago in which you suggested that various elements of fascism (even some of the specific 14 COFs) could be applied to any number of forms of government, depending on circumstances.  That is a very important point, and one with which I whole-heartedly agree.  Thank you.

Re “ebb and flow,” the following, from Monday’s NYT, is a perfect example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/opinion/the-right-to-record.html?ref=opinion

Peace.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 20, 2012 at 10:20 pm Link to this comment

Ebb and Flow appreciated Mannie, we may disagree on the effectiveness of backlash it seems I may be someplace between Troys pessimism and your optimism, so I hope for the best, you are right and Troy is wrong, but me paranoa and skepticism keeps me busy staving off those Red State negatives with a big question mark.

I am beginning to feel Fascism can be seen in just about any government, depending on where one happens to be standing as a liberal or conservative?

Again from the article above;

“Passmore and Robert O. Paxton, agree that authoritarianism is a mass movement that emerges out of a failed democracy, and its ideology is extremely anti-liberal, anti-democratic, and anti-socialistic.[43] As a social order, it is generally characterized by a system of terror directed against perceived enemies of the state; a monopolistic control of the mass media; an expanding prison system; a state monopoly of weapons; political rule by privileged groups and classes; control of the economy by a limited number of people; unbridled corporatism; “the appeal to emotion and myth rather than reason; the glorification of violence on behalf of a national cause; the mobilization and militarization of civil society; [and] an expansionist foreign policy intended to promote national greatness”

Actually the above text on authoritarianism while it dovetails with Britts 14 points, it still keeps me from being optimistic, so Mannie for you the glass appears half full for me the glass is like my pocket book.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, May 20, 2012 at 10:15 pm Link to this comment

Criticism of using published lists delineating the facets of fascism
is a sign of narrow mindedness. Assuming those who are using them
as reference do not reflect on either the authors’ ulterior motives or
their own is also reactionary for conspicuous defenders of athoritar-
ians.  Reading the authors’ rationale for each of their fourteen signs
of fascism gives one pause to think about what it has meant through
history to be under a fascist tyrant or a fascist political party or fascist
government. 

Where Eco’s #2 lists a rejection of modernism as a sign of fascism
segues from his #1 which shows fascism as being attentive to a cult
of tradition and renouncing the value of education, it might be seen
as a logical next step, but Britt’s #2 that gives disdain for recognizing
human rights as the next big symptom of fascism just might eclipse
education.  While he has been hesitant and is not a paragon of virtue
when it comes to championing human rights, and his delayed action
may even earn him some disdain, Obama’s public attention to women’s
rights, a position on gay rights, and his defense of the Chinese activist
Chen Guangcheng does not support utter disdain.  I would say there are
millions of people in America who would defend rights as we know them. 
What is contemptible is the ruthlessness of the Republican politicians to
decimate every single social program that would confirm the well-being
of the people whose human rights are “listed” in the Bill of Rights of the
US Constitution.

You say civilian police forces are being trained to engage in illegal
monitoring of the people and to use violent tactics to undermine all
protests.  Except from extrapolating from various news events, how do
you know this is true?  The Chicago Police did use harmful procedures
against peaceful protestors today, but that does not prove there is a
conspiracy between law enforcement agencies to attack civil protestors. 
There is a lot of speculation going on that needs to have confirming
evidence before belief is assigined!  This goes for the “secret” units, and
the agent provocateurs.  I’ve read about a couple of cases but, again,
that does not suggest a secret plan or fascist collaboration of various law
enforcement bureaus.

I agree there are many people discouraged a result of the corporate
media’s bias. And you claim many are dissuaded to participate in the
democratic process of protest and assembly, but I would argue that OWS
and all the Occupy organizations across America and the public protest
in Wisconsin defy that claim.  For as many who may not participate, a
great many do.  How can we calculate those who do or don’t?

It seems to me that if we want to promote and act to change the political
dynamics of this country, it is of paramount importance that the facts are
got straight so that no arguments are possible that can subvert any
legitimate protest or stop fascistic tendencies or actions. 

Human rights in the US are regularly attacked.  And an attack on human
rights must always demand an inspection for fascist action.  Amnesty
International’s website gives reports on what human rights activities are
current. 
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/americas/usa
Open any newspaper and there will be a story on the front page and
several others throughout about some infraction of human rights.  E.g.,
The LATimes today, frontpage, “Gays may have the fastest of all civil
rights movements.”  The Chicago Tribune, frontpage, “Protest clashes
result in injuries, arrests,” the NYTimes has an entire section on Human
Rights and Human Rights Violations, a search of the San Francisco
Chronicle lists 39 articles on human rights violations.  All this is
outrageous to be sure, but not enough to support the accusation that
fascism defines America.  Well if it did, none of these articles would be
allowed. JAAR (Just as a reminder)

Report this

By Maani, May 20, 2012 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

[Part II]

9.  Corporate Power is Protected. The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

This one is, sadly, a foregone conclusion.  And yet, it has been increasingly the case for decades; we are simply seeing the continuation.

10.  Labor Power is Suppressed. Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

Another one that is, sadly, a foregone conclusion.  Labor will continue to “fight the good fight” against Wisconsin- and Ohio-style anti-labor laws, but we aer unlikely ever to see the same power in Labor as it had until a decade or so ago.

11.  Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts. Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Yeah, but…the right has been mostly unsuccessful in its attempts to defund the arts, or to change the nature of or support for colleges and universities.  Still, this is one that has definitely increased in recent years, and bears watching (and fighting!).

12.  Obsession with Crime and Punishment. Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

This one is a mixed bag. On the one hand, there is certainly an increase in the militarization of law enforcemwent, and more “use” of them to suppress dissent.  On the other hand, as a result of the OWS movement, “people are watching” - including people who may not support the movement - and there is significant backlash.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption. Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

“Same as it ever was.”  And again, I see no remarkable change either way; for every step “toward” such cronyism and corruption, there seems to be a concommitant step toward investigating or controlling it.

14. Fraudulent Elections. Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Well…no argument here.  There certainly have been increased shenanigans since 2000.  I do not entirely agree that the system is hopelessly broken or corrupt, but it certainly is tainted.

I accept that I am being somewhat overly optimistic in my list here.  And yet I could list even more things in favor of “my” side, but do not have the time right now.

Suffice to say that this is a basic notion of the ebb and flow I am talking about.

Peace.

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By Maani, May 20, 2012 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

All:

Sorry I’ve been MIA; busy weekend.  But I want to elaborate on my previous post - about “ebb and flow” - which will also “speak” to Troy’s thoughtful and extensive punch-list per Britt.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism. Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

In the aftermath of 9/11, this was clearly over the top.  BUT…it has largely subsided, or at least been greatly reduced.

2.  Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights.
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Again, certainly existent, but not to the degree seen in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.  Indeed, the successful pressing of the lawsuit by Hedges et al shows that real, “public eye” backlash is occurring to some degree.

3.  Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause. The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Muslims, immigrants, et al.  Yes, it has been occurring, but this also has mostly subsided, particularly compared to where it was in the very recent past.

4. Supremacy of the Military. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Yes, this is certainly existent.  However, given that public opposition to the Afghan war - not just by the left anymopre, but by a majority of the U.S. - shows, again, that there is “backlash” here.

5. Rampant Sexism. The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

The “war on women” and the anti-gay legislation is, to a much greater degree than recently, being balanced by the backlash to the first, and the legislation FOR gay marriage, etc. to the second.

6.  Controlled Mass Media. Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

This, of course, still exists, with the only “balance” being alternative news sources like TD, AlterNet, truthout, etc.

7. Obsession with National Security. Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Not NEARLY to the degree in recent years, at least by the general public, who have grown weary of color-coded threat warnings, etc.  The only people really still “thinking” this way are right-wing politicos.

8.  Religion and Government are Intertwined.
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

“Same as it ever was.”  This has always existed to some degree, and probably always will.  But I don’t see any remarkable change at all in either direction.

[To be continued]

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By elisalouisa, May 20, 2012 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

The link I provided re Peter Arnett no longer connects to the intended website.
What a loss.

To misjudge as Michael has done is not difficult. With hindsight there is wisdom.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 20, 2012 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment

Evidently if some people believe in something, which someone else does not, this is a supposed slight, insult and indignity of such outstanding reproach, seemingly as if one has been forced to bear ones buttocks in public?

I am tired of people wearing their egos, feelers and their head up their arsed mental maraschinos, Om you are nothing but a cry baby. I remember clearly when Passing the wind said Walker was acting like a Fascist and you in your huff and puffy cry baby baby same crap all over agin said we called you “Ozark Michael” a Fascist. We both did not call you a Fascist and still we both apologized, fact, this is not going to ever happen again OM, the apology I mean!

Far as I can tell, Troy said he believed or felt the Tea buggers where racists against Obama, not you, I suppose this is the way you live your life looking for insults, when none exists.

Ignore the ineptness, inequalities and disfranchisement as much as you like and place it were the sun don’t shine,  right next to your head, Insult your prosthetic life away for you seem to enjoy it only your way!

See, Om I can speak for you like you speak for others, obviously your comprehension lever is on tilt.

I do not prefer authoritarianism, it seems you roll in authority like my dog rolls in shit and I see the OM cosmogonist smile too!

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, May 20, 2012 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

Yeah, I believe it was by mutual consent that the name-calling ended
thanks to the very enlightened Maani. But you are right, if I am name-
called I usually strike back, and usually a degree or two of worse name-
calling.  But it is always a provoked response.  I have never initiated
calling anyone in all my years and thousands of comments made on
this website a nasty name, nor on any other blogsite in which I’ve
participated.  However, calling Troy Davis a nut-job was unprovoked. 
So think what you want, it was uncalled for and crass.  Flawness is a
matter of personal opinion and not worth more comment than that. 
M’thinks a lot of bull shit is coming from the one who has to, sigh, 
endure the rest of us.  If one feels he must endure anything one must
question the need to.  There are no assigned places and no “earned
right” to criticize.  But it is a reasonable question to as why one would
bother with a group who has no appreciation for the one who assumes
the worst of them?

#2. Distain for the recognition of human rights.  – responding to Troy
Davis, May 20 at 5:25 a.m. aftah dinnah.  And thank you elisalouisa for
your comments about the efforts of Peter Arnett and the link.  Troy
Davis, your perception and examples of Controlled Mass Media are
exceptionally sound.  Many thanks to you too.  Might as well make the
circuit, thanks to Leefeller for the many insights into military life he gives
to the forums.  Yes, I think if we persist we might come up with a decent
forum discussion ignoring the taunts and jabs from a disaffected.

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By elisalouisa, May 20, 2012 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

Excellent posts. Troy Davis in particular, with whom I disagree that our discussions are of no consequence. The time to really be concerned Troy is when there no longer are discussions about such controversial matters, this is a true sign of despair in the people.  As to #6 Troy Davis “controlled mass media,” the attacks on that great journalist Peter Arnett were witnessed by many, myself included. Peter Arnett stood out as one who told it the way he saw it reporting from Iraq and was severely punished for not following the propaganda line required to continue in his work. Regrettably, the Peter Arnetts are gone, leaving us with the Zombie Puppets of Fox News.

 

Scroll down to hounding of honest media man Peter Arnett on link below.

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers10paper948.html

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By OzarkMichael, May 20, 2012 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment

I thought name-calling other posters was over?

Sorry to disturb what you felt was so peaceful and polite. Interesting that as long as you werent the one being called a racist, i guess for you its true that the name-calling was over.

My assigned place here is to just endure it, but i learned from someone that is is important to stand up and not allow such things to pass.

At this point you explain that what i am doing is futile. True. So I will allow you folks to enjoy your talk of fascism on this thread without my interuptions after this post.

A critique of process operates as a canard obviously calculated to unhinge any positive discussion of the topic.

Ah. Leftists often explain my motive for speaking as something sinister. Which is fine if thats how Leftists see human nature. In that case, Leftists must be on guard for their own sinister motives. Are they on guard?

That is the real canard. That is a real problem. That is part of my critique of the process.

E.g., to imply that the process is “flawed from the start” is IMO an attempt to derail the conversation and the reason why is to deflect criticism away from the partisan conservative fascistic agenda.

Yes the process is flawed from the start. After a few years of accepting and answering the flawed accusations of fascism I have earned the right to comment about the process, even if my motives are mixed. I am a human being after all. Little bad motives creep in and grow, but a little self awareness mitigates it.

Knowing human nature to be what it is, and being a human being myself, if i was trying to truly understand fascism I would attempt to be precise. I would examine my own motives and the motives of the people who claim to make lists of fascist characteristics. I would spend some time trying to wring any bias out of myself, especially when dealing with an emotion-evoking topic such as fascism. Working against Bias would need to be repeated now and then, like weeding a garden. Bias is natural, you know.

Ask yourself: Have you ever seen the fascism discussions on Truthdig check the motives/bias of either themselves or the writers they are referencing?  Nope? You should wonder why that is.

Have you ever dug into yourself to discuss the canard of what your real motivations are with these talks of fascism? Ever had a chat on Truthdig about those internal (possibly ‘sinister’) motives? Is there any evidence of such a struggle to reduce bias?

Go on and look back. If there is a trace on Truthdig of reflection its because I supplied it. Oh maybe Maani(kudos) did it once or twice. Thats all you will find.

Many people, some of them pretty smart, have combined to spend thousands of hours on this topic of fascism. Enough has been written on Truthdig to fill volumes.

All of it without hesitation. All of it without any struggle against Bias.

You will have the last word. Better yet just keep talking about “fascism”.

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By Leefeller, May 20, 2012 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

Respect is earned, except in the military and I was told to respect the rank and was not necessary required to respect the person.

It may be life is like the military, where we respect people in how they treat us and in return return respect is given, though I see no apparent rank above mine in any poster here, except in Shes case, where my Neanderthal meanderings find her academic focus so damn enlightening.

Name calling will not earn respect, instead it earns contempt. So I am trying to give it up! 

Great post She mucho food for thought, I feel the same way about the military as you stated, one country I did not see among your list was the British, who where not Fascist, but preformed many of Troys Fascist programs and agendas with gusto.

Troy, I appreciate your post and I believe we have a great forum to discuss differences and agreements. I know from your previous posts talk and discussion is something you do not prefer, but enlightenment comes from learning not by grabbing ideals from ones emotions and running with them. (My opinion)

Please all, keep it civil and respectful, I am elated to be learning in agreement or disagreement, how else is one to learn differences and new things? This may be a vangurad for the beginning of respect.

Differences do not need to be conformational or do they?

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By Shenonymous, May 20, 2012 at 11:53 am Link to this comment

Looking at your post May 20 5:05 am, Troy, and your observations
of the first characteristic of fascism, you chose to deal with Britt ‘s #1,
ignoring Eco’s critique of traditionalism.  Any reason why?  I shall be
bold and say at the risk of your ire that not all are in agreement with
your vision.  I.e., you accuse that the government has exulted the
Military.  The objection is that it is not a matter of fascism that the
military in every country that maintains a military, but a calculated
pride to promote a platform of action that calls on individuals to contri-
bute their very lives to the protection of their country.  Convincing men…
and women to do this is not as feasible or achievable an undertaking as
might be thought, particularly in this day and age of humans evolving to
ask the questions of why they should put their lives in harms way in an
atmosphere of uncertain national morals. 

Furthermore, the military is not strictly for, although it has been, used
to promote empire.  It has been used as aspects of self-protection. 
Imperialism has been the motivation for some countries, and I don’t
deny that has driven too much of America’s employment of the military. 
Again, imperialism has been a national motivation historically for nearly
all countries including the conquering tribes in Africa against other
African tribes, Atilla the Hun in Asia, the Vikings and other Germanic
clans (as the 20th century has seen), Napoleon of France, the Spanish in
South America, it has been a rampant practice including the United
States who decimated the Native Americans for primacy over territory,
and in their quest for black gold as well as yellow.  Imperialism has also
been an intention of the Arab nations for millennia that includes their
long history of attempting to displace Israel, an Israel that has not used
its military power to annex more territory in the same number of years. 
But that is a separate story and not pertinent to this one.

The notion of American exceptionalism is really a vainglorious
Republican idea, not one that belongs to the liberals.  Pride in one’s
country does not have to attain to the level of hubris. You chronically
speak in the collective “we” and I submit not all Americans are
Republicans.  Are you one?  Unless you answer in the negative, you
will have to take responsibility for the partisan sentiment.

Your complaint about the Military Complex may be justified but you
have not justified it.  Your anarchic comments do not give any evidential
force that supporting the troops is a fascist activity.  Furthermore, you
will have to answer the question if you would leave your country
unprotected?

How is the fact that there is an ex-military leader, a general, in charge
of the CIA fascist?  Why is it fascist to amalgamate the military with the
Central Intelligence Agency?  What do you know about the CIA and its
purposes?  You have not provided any reasonable rationale for your
complaint.

You claim the American military hegemony is a hypocrisy, but you have
not given justification for your criticism.  Do not assume others can see
inside your mind and can see your reasoning. 

Again, what are your “valid” reasons for criticizing the use of corporate
contractors to take over aspects of conducting war on terrorism?  In light
of the fact that fewer and fewer file applications to join the American
military it seems most logical to use private agencies.  Also not putting
new and green inductee armed forces in harms way seems good so that
our war inexperienced young men’s and women’s lives are preserved. 
Private military are mercenaries, work for money, that is exactly what
they are, and exactly why they exist: To earn money to be put in harms
way.  How is that a fascist application?

It seems this forum has taken an intelligent turn.

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By Shenonymous, May 20, 2012 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

I thought name-calling other posters was over? 

Not meaning to be too quippy, “How” to see Fascism is to open the
eyes and look for evidence.  HOWever, to find evidence, one has
to “know” what one is looking for.  It is not true the contributors
on this forum “accept” the lists of the characteristics or features of
fascism on faith!  Nothing is farther from the truth as vetting them
is proof they are not accepted on faith!  Nor has anyone made any
statements to that effect.  It is quite the lie to declare that they have.
We have to wonder why lying is the path taken?  Faith in itself has
meaning, just as do the lists on fascism, only when applied to real life
experience.  Otherwise it is a matter of idle pomposity to place them
on the table of discussion and will not further understanding of the
topic whatsoever.  It was noticing the vanity of self-righteousness not
obstructionism that legitimates my observation.  The best process is
the rational one.  Troy Davis’s insistence was to provide solutions, it
was not a call to action. 

A critique of process operates as a canard obviously calculated to
unhinge any positive discussion of the topic.  E.g., to imply that the
process is “flawed from the start” is IMO an attempt to derail the
conversation and the reason why is to deflect criticism away from the
partisan conservative fascistic agenda.  Plainly, that tactic will not do
the job.  It is also clear nothing will.

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By OzarkMichael, May 20, 2012 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

There is no such instance in any of comments, I consistently sought to have people offer up solutions to the phenomenon of fascism in America.

I have NEVER, not one single time ever urged anyone on this thread towards any action whatsoever.

Oh yeah thats right. It turned out you were just a talk-talk-talk guy, just like the rest. But I still think you are nearly a Nut-Job, and i wouldnt trust you with anything sharp. When i was using the ‘knife metaphor i hesitated because i didnt want to give you any ideas. 

Okay, but now you are talking more civilly. As I said, thats not a bad thing. The rest of the gang is pleased with you now. Its actually very good. So keep talking with them and maybe you will prove that i was wrong when i pegged you for a Nut-Job.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 10:22 am Link to this comment

OM states:

“Troy’s initial insistance that you all plunge into some action on the basis of an uneven application derived from an imprecise definition of Fascism is most unwise. Let me agree with you about something. It is the height of wisdom for you not to act. Yes, i made fun of your inaction, but in fact it is very wise of all of you.”

Well, OM, I want you to cite specific quotes from me wherein I call for people to “to plunge into some action”.

There is no such instance in any of comments, I consistently sought to have people offer up solutions to the phenomenon of fascism in America.

I have NEVER, not one single time ever urged anyone on this thread towards any action whatsoever. I observed that no solutions to fascism in America have been offered on this thread and I have stated that if anyone has solutions to the growing [institutional] fascism in America, to offer them up here on this thread for discussion.

Your characterization of my expressions for a “call to action” reside singularly in your own mind. If you have any such examples of my asserting a call to action I will gladly acknowledge them.

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By OzarkMichael, May 20, 2012 at 10:05 am Link to this comment

How does anyone else see Fascism? Mannie, She and I have expressed our opinions, does anyone else have comments on the subject. How about contributing instead of obstructing?

Leefeller asks the right question. “How does anyone else see Fascism?” I would place the accent on the word How and i would also make your question universal, by removing the word else.

The question applies to you and to me equally, because it inquires about the process of understanding for everyone:

How does anyone “see”(percieve, approach, define) Fascism correctly?

My thoughts are always drawn back to the process, and for good reason. The best process gets the best results. If you really wanted to make some progress on understanding Fascism, you would check your process. No one here has ever done that. For four years there hasnt been time for it, even though there is a constant clamour to get to the answer, with constant references to lists and now comparing this list to that list with the same fervor as a fundamentalist theologian who compares this Gospel to that Gospel, but the most basic question is never asked and the articles are all accepted on faith.

Faith is not a bad thing, but I have been told that scientific and historical study do not operate on such. So i expected better. Silly me.

I think it was Ben Franklin who said, “There never was a good knife made from bad steel.” So my question about “seeing Fascism” is about checking the ingredients and the process, which are the most basic things. I am always asking the fundamental question “is this knife(definition of Fascism) made of good steel(intellectual Precision)?”

Troy’s initial insistance that you all plunge into some action on the basis of an uneven application derived from an imprecise definition of Fascism is most unwise. Let me agree with you about something. It is the height of wisdom for you not to act. Yes, i made fun of your inaction, but in fact it is very wise of all of you.

My “obstructions”(as you call them) are merely critiques of process. Actually most of my posts on Truthdig are questions about process, although they are expressed in a dramatic way. For example, when i rant about ‘double standards’, what I am doing is criticizing the uneven edge on that knife of yours, and tracing that knife’s flaw right back to the steel(your definitions).

You are not pleased when i “obstruct” because you want to enjoy your definition of fascism. I am always pushing you back to the starting line of process, and you also struggle with Troy who was pushing you forward to the finish line of action. Now that Troy is contributing instead of berating you, you are cool with him. I am not, but that is not important.

I am not contributing support for this or that side of your application(for or against a ‘bully machine’ for or against a ‘fascism’) It is nice of you to politely ask me to do so. And now i politely refuse.

Why? Its actually simple. If the definition process is flawed from the start, then the higher level question “How does the definition apply? becomes meaningless. It was a mistake for me to defend the Tea Party because my defense against your application legitimizes your faulty definitions of fascism. That is why I dont “contribute”. It might please you if i did, but I dont want to be your co-dependent.

You have invested much in building a tower called “This is surely Fascism”. You have been building it for years. Leefeller is way up there now on the 22nd floor. Others may not be so high, but Troy is upon the uppermost pinnacle. Dont let him fall off. Keep an eye on him. He is your responsibility.

I can barely see any of you from down here at the bottom level, the foundation level, the beginner’s level of asking, “How do we see Fascism correctly?” and also this question:

“Wouldnt your project have turned out better if you used good steel?”

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By Shenonymous, May 20, 2012 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

Troy Davis, May 20 5:05 am – an excellent set of posts. I’m genuinely
impressed.  I’ill read them with much interest.  However, a correction,
it is not my thesis that there are 14 points that describes fascism,
they are Britt’s and Eco’s essays that delineates the 14.  I have no
emotional attachment to them but intellectually they seem a good way
to start rational reflection and I’ve no idea why 14.  If combined, they
could number 28. 

You have given a banquet for thought. I need to dwell on each point. 
It might take more than a sound bite to examine the facts of the matter
and write about them.  I do think you’ve jumped right in before I think its
essence has adequately been decked out.

As I’ve said a number of times, if you don’t know what a thing is, you
can’t recognize it when you are confronted by it.  You’d be blind to its
real existence and shoot at what is thought to be the target but miss its
heart thereby pissing in the wind and not be able to destroy it.

Using Eco’s and Britt’s lists to describe the phenomenon of fascism is
useful. It’s a pragmatic way to go about seeing if it exists as a signifi-
cant social construction without infusing one’s own eccentric personal
conclusions.  For why should they be believed by anyone else?  That
approach look kind of like a theological strategy.  The lists act like a
lighthouse that sheds light on what fascism is as an abstract concept. 
They direct attention as a beacon to real aspects that need to be
examined if preventing it from taking over our lives or eradicate it if
it has taken any serious formation.

Obviously there is no lack of sentiments on the topic believed to exist in
America. If it’s important to see whether or not there really is even a
trace of the condition, or if there’s only a degree more than is barely
observable in American life, then it is crucially important to know what it
is. To dismiss understanding the very term being hammered about
shows only shocking and oblivious ignorance.  It is apparent you have
spent much time thinking about it.  We should now take you seriously to
see if they have any merit.  You don’t mind if we do that do you Troy?

I don’t believe America is on the brink of being a fascist nation. I think
there are aspects, “particles,” elements of fascism that defines the mood
of certain individuals, but that defines a small in comparison to the total
population of 313,579,571, even if the membership of all of the radical
groups were totaled such as the American Nazi Party, the National
Alliance, the Ku Klux Klan, a definitive list of such rightist groups in the
United States may be found at the Wikipedia site
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fascist_movements_by_country_U–Z
that show definite fascistic principles of belief whose beliefs move them
to fanatical action, even so, this represents little evidence there is a
“wave” of popular acceptance.

As one who promotes orderly thinking just to be sure everything is
covered, I’ll use your posts as the gate to meaningful discussion.  I’ll
print them out and my next post will start taking some regard for the
time you spent.

Leefeller reads Giroux with much circumspection too!  Giroux is just
as good a resource as Britt and Eco.  Valuable point made about
authoritarianism.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 8:32 am Link to this comment

Since no one else has pointed this out, I guess I will have to be the adult in the room, and take it upon myself to clarify the history of the Tea Party.

The Tea Party was founded and funded by the multi-billionaire, corporatist Koch brothers.

It was never a “grass roots” movement that sprang up spontaneously from a genuine grassroots recognition of the corruption of the two major politica parties.

It sprang up as a reactionary, racist movement peopled by those in America so extremely upset over the election of a BLACK man to the Office of Presidency that they could be manipulated into support for candidates in the GOP who would obstruct everything President Obama offered up to overcome the economic debacle created by Bush II, the war criminal, his predecessor.

The thought that a Black man would inhabit the WHITE house was such anathema to racist Americans that they would follow anyone anywhere, even into hell, if the promise of finding full and unfettered expression of their racist ideations could be achieved.

Now, this was NOT the goal of the Koch brothers but they were astute enough to realiz the racist reaction to the historic election of Americas first [and hopefully, in their minds, last] Afro-American President could be used to their advantage and furthere the goals of the MIC which they are most certainly a part.

So, we had the Tea Party Movement. A quintessentially fascist, racist, and elitist party that achieved the goal of ousting the democrats from the US House of Representatives.  The GOP obstructionism in the US Senate is directly traceable back to the election of our first afro-American president.

The GOP is exemplary of the precivil war racists who were determined to maintain slavery as a viable economic model codified under the force of law in the US Constitution.

They made a strategic decision to obstruct Obama believing they would pay no political price for it, and assuming that the American electorate, recognizing that the opposition to President Obama brought economic detriment to themselves,  would vote for anyone, even the corporate vulture capitalist Mitt Romney, the etch-a-sketch candidate if the promise of economic revival were presented to them as a product of such support for a charter member of the 1%.

Fully entrenche in the MIC, Romney promises to pursue the same economic policies implemented by Bush II, the war criminal, thus ensuring the economic collapse of the American economy ensuring the implementation of the fascist state.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

OM Says:


“However, as long as we have our young men and women deployed in foreign lands, i assure you that 100% of us firmly support our troops and 100% support that they can accomplish some aspect of the impossible mission that our nation requests from them. So you will never see “anti-war” protests from us Tea Party folks. Never.”

OM, how utter precise of you,how utterly patriotic of you and how completely fascistic of you, too.


Unmitigate, blind support for war based upon allegiancce to the “troops” is absurd beyond description.


Wars are started by corporations to increase their profit through the mechanism of war profiteering. The “troops” to which you are so loyal and dedicate so much allegiance to, are nothing more than fodder for the corporate greed to promotes warfare.

The troops are there to be exploited just like any other commodity be it cattle, corn, cotton or tabacco.

The corporate elite, MIC, could care less about the troops. They are interested in maximizing profit no matter what the cost in human terms.

There is nothing honorable or “glorious” about. Any heroism exhibite during war is manifested by quite common, ordinary people [soldiers] who under the duress and inhumanity of war occassionally behave in quite heroic manner.

The MIC takes these people, who are “exceptions to the rule” and presents them to the population as the rule. They go out of there way to bestow inordinate honors upon them acknowledging their “heroism” and bravery while completely ignoring the brutal nature of war.

It is pure, unadulterated hyperbole designed to maintain the MIC in power and promote the militarization of society.

If you blindly follow the dictates of the MIC glorifying war with a determination to “support the troops” no matter what, YOU have been duped by the MIC and are participating in the conversion of America into a fascist state wherein a militarized police force oppresses the people.

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By Leefeller, May 20, 2012 at 8:01 am Link to this comment

Damn, I suspect we have a real discussion going on,  is it not solving anything?  Actually Troy it may solve something for me, which appreciates hearing a point of view on the subject even if it is not mine and may be enlightening to other people who have no or little idea of what Fascism really is.

Troy, one thing I may not agree with off the top of me head, is Regain was not quite a Hitler, though he had some of the earmarks of an imbecile and for some reason I doubt Regain was as smart and fanatical as Hitler.

Militarization of all aspects in society seems a stretch, though I can see why you mention it, my trouble with some of your comments is the all encompassing word ‘all’ making a premise absolute, for I have trouble with absolutism’s. 

One other thing I find slightly difficult to swollow Troy, is all four of your COf’s collude into one probably tainted by preconceived belief or premise of the MIC, which is real but may not be accurate?

I believe we have solved something and have much more to ferrite out.

Henry A. Giroux states;

“I think it is fair to say that authoritarianism can permeate the lived relations of a political culture and social order and can be seen in the ways in which such relations exacerbate the material conditions of inequality”

It may be safe to say not all authoritarianism is Fascist, but all Fascists are authoritarian.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

14. Fraudulent elections

This is something that has occurred in America in 2000, and 2004 on the Federal level with election fraud perpetrated upon the American people with the illegal appointment of George W. Bush, Bush II [the war criminal], to the office of the POTUS by the US Supreme Court acting illegally by interference in the Florida State Supreme Court decision authorizing a recount of the ballots in the Florida election.

Furthermore, the election fraud that occurred in Florida that manifested as the disenfranchisement of minority voters throughout Florida, although documented was never addressed by either the GOP or the democrats.

Similar election fraud occurred in Ohio in 2004 when GOP operatives in control of the Ohio ballot count used electronic voting machines to tabulate the vote in Ohio. Exiting polling clearly indicated John Kerry the winner in Ohio but the electronic tabulation [sans a verifiable paper trail] declared Bush II, the winner in Ohio.

This went unchallenged by the Democratic challenger, John Kerry, in the full realization that any challenge to the US Supreme Court would have been futile given the interference in the 2000 election by that same SCOTUS. 


After the election fraud of 2000, what was required was a national strike/protest by the American people against the illegal appointment of George W. Bush to office. Such a strike, similar to the one that occurred in the Philippines under the fascist dictator Ferdinand Marcos that ended his dictatorship when the military refused to slaughter the people sitting peacefully in the streets in passive protest to his regime, should have occurred in America and George W. Bush should never have been allowed to assume office.

When this did not occur, in the collective minds of those who compromise the MIC, it was deemed a capitulation by the people to fascist domination and control and firmly established MIC domination and control over the country. It was the death knell of democracy and emboldened the MIC to pursue its fascist takeover of America.

The terrorist attack of September 11, 2001, which was allowed to happen, was the icing on the fascist cake, so to speak, and as Cheney said afterward, when demands were being made to undermine the fascist takeover of America.. “We will not turn back; we will not be deterred from achieving our goal [the fascist takeover of America].”

The only thing remaining is a discussion of the strategies and tactics to be employed to resist the fascist takeover of America.

Thus far, no such discussion has occurred on this thread here on TD. That is not too surprising since the “fascist enablers” who post here have no interest in undermining fascism. The pooh, pooh every assertion that fascism is underway in America.

They never offer solutions to fascism. They belong to the MIC, support the goals of the MIC, or financially benefit from the MIC and therefore will continue to “enable” the devolution of America into a fascist state.

Uppermost in the minds of true supporters of democracy and those with democratic aspirations is the old biblical adage, “Ye reap what ye sow”. 

Fascist enablers will reap the bitter harvest of their continued support for fascism, and when they partake of the fruit of fascism, they will realize the folly of their efforts to be fascist enablers.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption

I have already addressed this aspect of the alleged fascist agenda with the prostitution of the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government. It permeates every level of government, be it federal, state, county or municipal authorities.  The waste, fraud, and abuse on every level of government in every bureaucracy are well established under the auspices of the MIC and no more need be said about it.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

12. Obsession with crime and punishment

Certainly, with the privatization of the US prison system, the unrestrained “profiling” of American citizens, particularly minorities [with the emphasis on illegal immigration] the divide and conquer tactic used so effectively by the MIC to distract America from the goals of the MIC are in full force.

The American “criminal justice” system has always been racist and elitist. We have always endured a two-tiered “justice” system in which the rules applied to common, ordinary Americans do not apply to the wealthy elite/politically connected. This has been an egregious error but it has accelerated under the MIC and the determination to criminalize the masses is in full force with efforts to use criminalization to justify the monitoring of the populace as the primary crime prevention tool used by law enforcement. Those not in prison, on parole and/or probation, [monitored by the police apparatus] wearing ankle monitors, or ultimately having some type of computer chip implanted in them to monitor them is growing exponentially.  Everyone else lives in fear of arrest and/or imprisonment for some new invented crime established under the auspices of the War on Terror.  Community is destroyed as suspicion amongst and between individuals is increased and fear of being accused of “aiding and abetting” terrorism through some innocent albeit esoteric act prevents meaningful interaction to address the growing fascist hierarchy.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:40 am Link to this comment

11. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts

I think it obvious that the corporate [fascist] political arm of the MIC, the GOP [Greed Overwhelming Principle], openly expresses such disdain. The defunding of the National Endowment of the Arts has long been a goal of the MIC.  President Obama is portrayed as an intellectual elitist who supports communistic/socialistic goals at odds with the MIC. This is hyperbole, of course, designed to deceive naïve voters into believing elections are still important manifestations of democracy wherein the electorate has a real say in the political process.  However, since President Obama represents the MIC and works very cooperatively with it to promote the establishment of the fascist state this utter nonsense.

Generally speaking, any and all “art” that enlightens the American people and awakens them to the growing fascist threat is treated disdainfully by the MIC. Only that “theatre” that works as a propaganda tool for the MIC is deemed acceptable and funded by the government.

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By OzarkMichael, May 20, 2012 at 7:39 am Link to this comment

There is disagreement in the Tea Party about the wars so i cant write a definitive position statement.

I think the majority of Tea Partiers want to dump the Wilsonian idea of “war can spread democracy”.

Maybe 1/3 of us want to take it a step further, harking back to George Washington’s foreign policy of “minding our own business”. That means no foreign intervention at all! What you dont understand is that the Tea Party is a type of fundamentalism, which means we want to understand and apply first principles. We tend to examine the founding fathers in order to figure out where went wrong today. We practically make gods out of them.

However, as long as we have our young men and women deployed in foreign lands, i assure you that 100% of us firmly support our troops and 100% support that they can accomplish some aspect of the impossible mission that our nation requests from them. So you will never see “anti-war” protests from us Tea Party folks. Never.

Getting out of such wars is not as easy as Obama thought it would be. There are moral responsibilites that he wasnt aware of before he took office. He   became aware of the tremendous responsibility and he changed his tune pretty quick, didnt he? I think overall the Tea Party folks are aligned with our current President on this difficult question, even though we like to berate him. Thats not racism, its just politics.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:39 am Link to this comment

10. Labor power suppressed

Returning to the year, 1980, the election of Ronald Wilson Reagan evidenced the beginning of the assault on unionism in America with his invocation of Taft Hartley to decertify the Air Traffic Controllers Union.  In 1981, American unionized workers represented nearly 30 % of the workforce. It is now down to barely 7%.  I think the actions of GOP Governors Scott Walker working with his GOP controlled state legislature, clearly indicates the determination to crush unionism in America. Scott Walker is merely the poster boy for this effort. GOP Governors throughout America, working with corporations, are determined to eliminate unionism in America. The idea is to transform workers into wage slaves wherein their singular focus is “economic survival” with the concomitant elimination of the American middle class to reestablish a two classed “feudalistic society” in which the wealthy elite recreate the plutocracy that flourished prior to the FDR New Deal reforms that helped spur unionism creating, for the first time in America, a middle class, educated and with sufficient income security to actively engage in the political life of the country.

The outsourcing that began in earnest under the fascist Reagan Regime has continued unabated and with the financial fraud the economy is perched precariously on the precipice of complete collapse wherein workers will be forced to scramble for the crumbs [low wage subsistence level jobs] that the plutocracy casts to them from the banquet table of corporate [fascist] greed.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

9. Corporate power protected

Corporate power is not only protected but also promoted as the new form of governance. The prostitution of the politicians in both major parties is virtually a fait accompli, and the judiciary is fully corrupted, too, with the establishment of corporations as “people” with the same rights as individual citizens to free speech, etc. under the infamous Citizens United decision. 

Corporate power is not only protected in America, it is promoted and enabled by the combined corruption of the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government in our faltering constitutional republic.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:34 am Link to this comment

8. Religion and government intertwined

In America, this has not yet occurred. Currently, religion is effectively used by the blossoming fascist state to diffuse genuine political resistance to the establishment of the fascist state. Whether or not there will be a merging of government and fundamentalist “Christian’ ideology remains to be seen. There are certainly efforts being made to create such a merger but ultimately it remains to be seen which, if any, religion will be merged with government to achieve this alleged goal.

It is not necessary that religion be established conjointly with government to achieve the fascist state. Religion can remain as “opiate for the masses” to encourage their acceptance of the establishment of the fascist state. Most religions [fascistic in their orientation and practice] are comfortable working in cooperation with the governmental entity that is in power so long as the religious leaders are free to exploit the religious desire of the masses in cooperation with the fascist state while simultaneously promoting the fascist state.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:33 am Link to this comment

7. Obsession with national security

The “war on terror” has taken center stage in America. Nothing is done in America without giving precedence to the national security interests of America as expressed by the “war on terror”. Every action taken by the US government is justified by the need to prevent another “terrorist attack” on American soil.  Bush II, the war criminal, claimed that America must “engage terrorism anywhere and everywhere in a preemptive effort to prevent another attack on American soil.”

Why Bush II, the war criminal, along with Cheney, et al, are not in jail awaiting trial at the Hague for war crimes is a mystery to everyone who respects the Geneva Conventions.

Thus, we have everything and everyone deemed subservient to the desired goal of achieving absolute “national security” no matter what the cost, including but not limited to the destruction of our constitutional democracy in the name of “national security”.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:31 am Link to this comment

6. Controlled mass media

The so-called American Main Stream Media [MSM] is no such thing. We are now living under the auspices of corporately owned and operated media. The only information allowed to be presented to the American people on corporate [fascist] media is information filtered through the lens of corporate media. The talking heads on every major network are clearly fascist enablers who talk, talk, talk, issues to death while offering no solutions to the growing fascism in America.

Everyone recalls that at the beginning of the illegal and immoral Iraq and Afghanistan wars, reporters from the corporate mass media were “embedded” [in bed with] troops overseas. Only those reporters from corporately owned and operated entities were allowed to embed with the military.

Furthermore, expectations that truthful reporting would come from these embedded reporters was unrealistic to say the least. Any reporter embedded with the military who witnessed atrocities perpetrated upon civilian populations by US troops were unlikely to report any of it since their safety relied upon the protection of those self same troops in a war zone.

This is what happens under fascism. Truth is irrelevant and the military creates a circumstance in which it can fully and completely control the flow of information.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 7:28 am Link to this comment

5. Rampant sexism

Recently, we heard a great deal about the “war on women” in America. I think it fair to state that such a war does exist and is being implemented to distract the American people away from the reality that the MIC is determined to establish itself as the new ruling authority in America under the auspices of corporate [fascist] governance.

Women are indeed deemed inferior. Their rights are regularly abrogated and the infamous “glass ceiling” is very much alive and well in America.  Only those opinions that agree with the MIC are tolerated from women and only those women who express unrestrained support for the MIC are allowed any voice in the “halls of power” that constitute the MIC.

The “war” on women’s reproductive rights and the ability to have control over their own bodies is under assault.

We have DOMA [Defense of Marriage Act] enacted by a homophobic GOP dominated congress and we see the battle waqing in America over who and who cannot be deemed sexually legitimate in our society. This is a hallmark of fascism, too.


The treatment of women in the military is renowned for the assaults, including rape, endured by female recruits and the lack of accountability [punishment] for their male counterparts who perpetrate such crimes upon them.


The US Military is still a “Good Ole’Boy” network in which cronyism is very much alive and well, as it is in the US congress, too.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 6:36 am Link to this comment

4. Supremacy of the military

This is, as the saying goes, is a no brainer. The Military is firmly in control of America. The Office of Homeland Security works synergistically with the Military to implement policies and procedures that ensure the domination and control of the military over every aspect of American life.

The infrastructure is not fully in place to implement the complete militarization of society, but the mechanisms are being established to create this reality. The effort is being put forth to establish “military tribunals” to adjudicate any and all instances of alleged “terrorism” wherein American citizens will be denied due process of law guaranteed to them under the US Constitution in deference to military tribunals equivalent in effect to the former judiciaries in the now defunct USSR.

Indefinite detention of alleged terrorists in military prisons is becoming the rule with efforts to impose those same penalties upon American citizens accused of aiding and abetting terrorism. Not to mention the indefinite detention of American citizens in American gulags run by the military.

Now, here is a simple exercise for everyone to participate in to help determine whether or not the fascist state is being implemented in America.

First contact your City government and ask to speak the “Officer of Homeland Security” assigned to your municipality under a federal grant.

Next, contact your county supervisor and ask to speak with the County Officer of Homeland Security paid for with a grant from the federal government.

Then, contact your state government and ask to speak with the Officer of Homeland Security assigned to your state paid for by a grant from the federal government.

If this does not convince you that the tentacles of the MIC are extending into every aspect of government and that the infrastructure is being put in place to effectuate the establishment of a fascist state nothing else will. Be forewarned, however, that upon contacting these entities you most likely be monitored for potential “terrorist” activity and and be put on a watch list, too.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

3. Identification of an enemy or scapegoat as a unifying cause

Herein we have the identifiable “war on terror” with the nebulous and nondescript “enemy of the state” who can readily be identified as virtually anyone who opposes the imperial hegemony of the MIC.

In New York City, elite police units were formed to monitor any and all activities within and amongst the muslim American community with squads assigned to infiltrate and monitor every activity in the community with the assertion being, much like what happened to the Japanese in WWII, that being a Muslim trumped being an American and anyone in America who is muslim is automatically suspected of engaging in or aiding and abetting terrorist activities. This blanket condemnation of entire groups of people based upon a suspicion is characteristic of fascism.

Anyone can easily be converted from a patriotic protestor engaging in constitutionally guaranteed rights of assembly and protest into the “enemy” whose actions in support of democracy [expressed as constitutional assembly and protest] can immediately be deemed to be “aiding and abetting the enemy”.

Anything that interferes with the war on terror is deemed to be subversive and anyone engaging in such activity is asserted to be a subversive acting against the national security interest of the United States [MIC] and therefore worthy of condemnation and eradication.

Communities are destroyed as suspicion is heightened and everyone lives in fear of being mistakenly labeled as a terrorist or aiding and abetting terrorism.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 6:25 am Link to this comment

2. Disdain for the recognition of human rights

Obviously, the current government [MIC] is utterly disdainful of human rights. We have the Office of Homeland Security engaging in the consolidation of power working hand in glove with federal, state, county, and municipal entities to expand the power of the homeland security into every aspect of American life including the illegal monitoring of citizens etc., etc., etc.

Civilian police forces are being trained to engage in illegal monitoring of the people and to use violent tactics to undermine all protest.

Secret units within the civilian police forces are formed into elite units whose sole purpose is to profile, monitor, infiltrate and disrupt every group that seeks to resist the fascist state by expression of constitutionally guaranteed rights of assembly and protest.

Agent provocateurs are the rule rather than the exception now and police infiltration of all political entities is commonplace as people are labeled as “enemies of the state” who “aid and abet terrorism” in an effort to eliminate all efforts of the people to engage in their constitutional rights of assembly and protest. Merely the fear of being labeled dissuades many from actively engaging in constitutionally guaranteed assembly and protest.

People are discouraged from participation in the democratic process of protest and assembly when the corporate media uses its power to selectively report incidents of violence portraying them as the rule rather than the exception during protests. Once again, many of these characteristics overlap and are relevant to different and coordinate with various other aspects of fascism.

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By elisalouisa, May 20, 2012 at 6:13 am Link to this comment

Maani: “Because although some of their* ideas are clearly wrong-headed (and some may even seem to support some of the COFs), they are anti-government in many respects, and, as such - because they are actively involved in “watching” the government (again, even if for questionable socio-political
reasons) - they are less likely to accept a fascist or even proto fascist government.”

*Tea Party movement

Although it is tempting to give the Tea Party some support strongly I disagree with you Maani. Anti-government? Which part of government? Does the Tea Party protest our military budget? Does the Tea Party protest our many military bases the world over? Does the Tea Party protest our Iraq war, our war in Afghanistan, our involvement in overturning legitimate governments in the Middle East, South America and other parts of the world? Does the Tea Party protest the murder of innocents with our drones, drones now flying over our very cities and towns? Did the Tea Party protest the hurling of billions of dollars of tax payer money at Wall Street? I could go on and on.

The Tea Party only protests government social programs. The Tea Party is accepting the dangerous laws that our government has advocated and put into motion for “security” reasons, steps that take away the very freedoms that our Constitution tells us is our right. The Tea Party is aiding and abetting the likes of the Koch brothers and supports the very actions that promote Fascism, not realizing their vision is clouded.

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By Troy Davis, May 20, 2012 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

According to Shenonymous, there are fourteen [not even the enablers can agree on this] aspects of fascism.

So, let us accept the fourteen characteristics offered up to us by “SHE” and see if we can associate any of them to events in America that have taken place over the previous 32 years to the present day.

I begin this analysis with the election of Ronald Wilson Reagan [whom we can all agree was at heart a fascist] in 1980, and the now infamous and disgraced fascist Reagan Revolution with its emphasis upon supply side, trickle down, [faux] free market economic “theories” [that his own VP, Bush I,  correctly characterized and identified as   “voodoo” economics]. In the vernacular of common America it was called BS.

Therefore, let us begin:

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism

Clearly, we can see the glorification of war and “warriors” in America. We have seen the exultation of the Military by the government to establishing the heroic stature of war and warriors and the expression of overt nationalism in which the interest of America are portrayed as the ultimate goal with alleged moral authority behind every military action taken to promote empire. 

The ascendancy of the military as the primary expression of American “exceptionalism“ ironically expressed as an all voluntary military peopled with illegal immigrants that face deportation at the end of their military service.

The Military Industrial Complex [MIC] is firmly in control of America and dedicated to the establishment of itself under the guise of “national security interests” as the predominant governing entity. The flag waving is everywhere. You can barely see the forest [of patriotism] for all of the trees [flags] constantly waving in the face of the American people. “Support Our Troops” stickers abound and can be seen on millions of vehicles in America.


For the first time in nearly 50+ years, we have an ex-military leader, a general no less, in charge of the CIA. Now this may seem minor to most but it is fairly significant since it allows the tentacles of the MIC to intertwine with the police state to effectuate its goals.

American military hegemony is proclaimed as the greatest moral value inherent within our constitutional democracy because it is the beloved military that promotes the moral values of America around the glob establishing the validity of our constitutional democracy.  The utter hypocrisy inherent in such a claim is to be ignored as irrelevant to the goals of the MIC.

Let us not forget the privatization of the Defense Department [originally called the “department of war]with corporate contractors taking over the major aspects of conducting the war on terror in conjunction with the US Military.

I would be remiss if I did not also point out the privatization of the military, too, under the title of “private contractors” [paid mercenary soldiers].

Perhaps much of this rightly belongs under #4, Supremacy of the Military but under fascism, as in real life, these things tend to overlap.

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By Leefeller, May 20, 2012 at 4:53 am Link to this comment

“examples of all or almost all of the COFs” could well be substituted for most any other kind of government depending on interpretation and degree as one sees them.

It appears the word Fascist has the same meaning to some as socialist, communist even could include democracy to Muslim, so definitions are important as their bastardizations form new meanings, so like the word ‘gay’ the word Fascist can change meaning by application and acceptance in society’s?

When Wisconsin Walker attacked unions with precision by the other red states, I did see jack booted ‘Fascism’  through jaundiced eyes after all Walker was connected at the Hip to the Koch Brothers? Now Corporations are people too, women have become like second class citizens, the list does seem to be flowing?

So it is I to see Fascism flowing, (and ebbing) but I suspect this is how the tide changes Mannie.

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By Maani, May 19, 2012 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment

She, OM et al:

As She noted (and I thank her for her kind words), I was among the first, if not the first, to post Britt’s 14 COFs at TD.  And at the time, I provided examples of almost all of those COFs, and made some statements that would put me closer to Troy’s camp then to most of those here, including the statement She attributes to me, to whit:

“The reason why the masses don’t stop this process is because at each step the government uses fear and propaganda to both keep people from seeing what is happening, and to reinforce the people’s ‘comfort’ with these changes in the name of ‘safety and security.’  The ‘paternalism’ of government, especially when re-inforced by propaganda, is an enormously powerful palliative for the masses.  Not only do they not FIGHT it, they come to both accept and WANT it.  [‘There was nothing left in them except sorrow for what they had done, and love of Big Brother.  It was touching to see how they loved Big Brother.’ George Orwell, 1984.]  How do you wake up the masses when they happily accept the idea of a national ID card, leading to a ‘Your papers, please’ society, and gleefully accept the implantation of
trackable RFID chips in their arms?”

I still agree with that particular statement, since there is still a significant element of what I mention.

However, my opinion has changed somewhat for a very important reason, one that I expressed in a prior post.  That is, what I have actually been seeing over the past few years since I posted that is an “ebb and flow” of the degree to which the COFs are applicable to the U.S.  I had felt at the time that once we started down the path of each of the COFs, that was it: there was no “modifying,” much less “going back.”

I was wrong in that regard.  And oddly, although not the first example of that ebb and flow, it was the Tea Party that really started me re-thinking my position.  Because although some of their ideas are clearly wrong-headed (and some may even seem to support some of the COFs), they are anti-government in many respects, and, as such - because they are actively involved in “watching” the government (again, even if for questionable socio-political reasons) - they are less likely to accept a fascist or even proto-fascist government.  Similarly, though (seemingly) from the opposite end of the political spectrum, the OWS movement is also anti-government in many respects and, because they are also “watching” the government, they are less likely to accept a fascist or proto-fascist one.  [N.B.  Despite the media propaganda, the TP and OWS have a few very significant things in common.  Yes, they disagree strongly on certain economic factors, etc., but if they ever set aside their differences and find their “common ground” - which would include (perhaps tacitly and unwittingly) preventing a fascist or proto-fascist government from being created - they would be a force to be seriously reckoned with re any attempt to foist a proto-fascist government on the U.S.]

So…I still agree that one can find examples of all or almost all of the COFs, which is basically what Troy is harping on.  But the REALITY of the situation “on the ground” is one of ebb and flow, and at the moment, one that includes at least two (but actually more) movements that exist (again, perhaps unwittingly) as bulwarks against the implementation of a fascist government.

Peace.

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment

Leef says:

“She addressed the topic of Fascism with a clear honest intent, only to be talked or written over by phony outrage. This is like a never ending story and those of us who see it for what it really appears to be, need to call it out and should ignore it.”


I search for precision in my response to the above assertion. A single word that full characterizes the breadth and depth of the statement.

A precise word that properly and with precision describes the above statement. What word is most apropos to fully desribe the assertion that SHE manifested a “clear and honest intent”.

There is a word, it is there lurking in the back of my mind. Slowly, irrevocably, like fascism, working its way into my consciousness so that I can express precisely with the use of a single word my heartfelt reaction to the assertion set forth in the quote.

Wait! It feel it entering into my consciousness. I can see the word forming in my mind seeking expression. Aha! I have it, the word is fully formed in my frontal lobe now and I capable of using it to express my interpretation of the quote.

The word is: POPPYCOCK!

NOTE: By way of explanation, SHE has done everything possible to avoid a discussion of “solutions” to growing, blossoming fascism in a democratic nation. SHE has NEVER, not once offered any solutions. SHE has none. Period.

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By Leefeller, May 19, 2012 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

Actually there does seem to be a disconnect where people refuse to discuss the topic, seemingly by a choreographed deviation from any topic discussion usually including considerable side bickering.

As for solving someones problem, I would recommend the problem is not even solvable unless we agree on the problem. In the case of the resident detonator I suspect the goal is to keep any topic from ever being discussed for then facts would be required which are never allowed in the same room with fanatics.

Constant interruptions of potential topic disscussions has been an ongoing problem here on TD and it is my premise some posters are not sincere in their approaching anything toward the resolution and exchange of ideas, except to cause disruptions.

For instance Troy has attacked everyone here as OM has since the French Revolution, supposedly on difference sides of the fence. Both achieving the same result, something similar to what is going on in Congress deadlock, obstructionism pure and simple, a constant division creating distractions attempting to devide sides by distractions which have little merit in anything but what they seem, pure BS!

My attempts of promoting discussion on the topic of Fascism has constantly been disrupted always by the same thing a side saddle straw man, so it is, instead of people telling me or saying they do not want to discuss the topic, it is always the same thing OM bringing up some blathering nonsense and now we have Troy doing the same thing, with a slight variation of the alleged right to left?

She addressed the topic of Fascism with a clear honest intent, only to be talked or written over by phony outrage. This is like a never ending story and those of us who see it for what it really appears to be, need to call it out and should ignore it.

After reading all or most of the posts here on this thread, I feel Fascism has some fingers in the pie,  though as I stated before many other types of government do the same thing against peoples rights, Just look at the Middle East for instance, even Israel seems to have some problems in the people rights department.  How do they compare to the points of Fascism? I question if some people reading and posting here are even capable of cognitive thought?  Actually, I am beginning to have little hope the nation as a whole, for opportunism, manipulation and power coupled with money leaves little for the huddled masses to enjoy as we watch peoples rights deteriorate.

How does anyone else see Fascism? Mannie, She and I have expressed our opinions, does anyone else have comments on the subject. How about contributing instead of obstructing? I still would like to discuss religion and Eloweasea’s link on Christian Fundamentalism and how does this all apply to the Apocalypse fundiy wishers?

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By OzarkMichael, May 19, 2012 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

For the past day or two I posted some heated emotional rhetoric to flush out Troy Davis, and then used some detective talent to trace out for you exactly what Troy Davis is: namely, a big “talker” and nothing more.

Setting aside my role as emotional provocateur of nut-jobs like Martha/Thomas and Troy Davis, I now turn my attention to the task at hand. This will be my evaluation of chats about fascism.

Let me first admit that what i am about to say is completely ‘made up’. That means I just thought about this while i was outside until it seemed to me that i got to the bottom of it. So i am not quoting Britt, or Mitt, or any authority.

Yes, I would like to discuss fascism, for I have no quarrel with anyone who wants to understand what fascism is. That would be an important discussion. Over the years on Truthdig such a conversation hasnt happened yet. I would like to explain why I think that is the case. 

When one wishes to understand what something is, one must comprehend its characteristics. To do so, one would employ careful logic and a certain strictness that i will call Precision.

The more dangerous something is, the more we must force ourselves to be precise. To understand fascism, one must employ both logic and Precision to the highest degree. People dont seem to realize that Precision is not something that happens just because they are are emotionally charged for or against fascism. 

What is Precision? It is an accuracy of thought which strives to strike only the target(to use archery as a metaphor). Precision means there is no collateral damage(to use a military metaphor). Precision does its task, no more and no less. It doesnt leave anything out, it doesnt add other things in.

Unfortunately, Precision has many enemies since there are many human faults which degrade our accuracy of thought. The main enemy of human precision is Bias, which adds a strange new motive to our process of defining and understanding something. Bias wants to accomplish something rather different from Precision.

Remember that Precision doesnt want anything except to hit the target, but in contrast Bias has one eye on the target and unfortunately the other eye is on something else.

Discussions and definitions of fascism that employ Bias will suffer for lack of Precision. Dont get me wrong, Bias has advantages… it is more suitable to the changing tastes of the day so it can cater to certain people. Bias also has a highly social function: it brings like-minded people together in an emotional moment. Now we realize why emotion does not aid Precision. Its because emotion aids the enemy of Precision, Bias.

I propose this definition: Bias is emotional enthusiasm hiding under the pretense of Precision and intellectuality. That is why Bias will initially embrace a nut-job if that nut-job evidences the same bias. Bias emotionally links up with the nut-job’s bias before a dose of rational thought can warn of the folly. One could say that Bias is in a hurry to get to the party, the more the merrier, and also that Bias likes to cue up the dance(an emotional moment) over and over again, and not with careful regard for who it is dancing with.

Precision can be(but doesnt have to be) a solitary endeavor, for it seeks only the perfect understanding. Precision has no extraneous function. It neither seeks to please nor seeks to offend, neither to cause dancing nor to cause mourning, neither to accuse nor to excuse, because Precision seeks only one thing: to understand and define as perfectly as possible. Precision is the work of an intellectual, not an emotional enthusiast.

Anyone who truly wishes to understand fascism would be very concerned about Bias, would avoid it like the plague, since Bias is the enemy of Precision.

Obviously this isnt finished.  Its time to go plant sweet potatoes, but i often think while i plant, so I might develop this line of thought further tonight.

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By elisalouisa, May 19, 2012 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment

Thank you for calling our attention to the execution of Troy Davis.  (Follow provided links.) Please tell us more about yourself.

http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml


http://current.com/shows/countdown/videos/michael-moore-support-of-occupy-wall-street-decries-execution-of-troy-davis

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael has spoken, he avers,

“Personally, I dont believe in the current fascist demonology game that you guys are playing. Phony lists of so-called “fascist characteristics” serve to demonize your political opponents. Thats what it is for and thats all it does.”

Clearly, OM is a devotee of SHE and the other enablers on this site. He has fully “drank the cool aid” so to speak, and is now thoroughly convinced that fascism is merely a political ploy proferred up to unsuspecting people to perpetuate the pathetic concept that fascism is putting America on the precarious precipice of political disaster by people who prefer totalitarianism to democratic principles.

So, there you have it. SHE and her fellow enablers have proven the effectiveness of their perpetual and perennial disavowal of fascism as a genuine threat to democracy.

The effectiveness of SHE’s determination to diffuse an deflect opposition to fascism has been so effective that OM wholeheartedly embraces the belief that fascism is at best a myth and at worst a deliberate tool of those determined to undermine confidence in American democracy.

If there is a problem, OM believes the problem to be something other than fascism. OM has never clearly stated on this threas the specific threat to American democracy that concerns him so I would have to theorize about his belief.

Rather than do that, OM, I encourage you to tell me yourself what the problem facing American democracy truly is in your mind.

BTW, thank you for your hyperbolic albeit humorous post that while completely detached from reality was very humorous none the less. I can always use a good laugh. They say, “laughter is the best medicine”.

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

Apparently, SHE is no longer interested in polite, civilized discourse if the person disgrees with HER,and reveals her true purpose on this thread.

Obviuosly, based upon her post relating to the characteristics of fascism, SHE is offering NO solutions which confirms what I have been asserting about the real purpose of “enablers” on this thread.

Providing solutions would put SHE in the untenable position of encouraging opposition to the creation of a fascist state. That is something SHE just cannnot afford to do. It undermines the goal of diffusing and deflecting genuine solutions to the reality of the devolution of America into a fascist state.

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2012 at 1:35 pm Link to this comment

Post by Troy Davis, May 19 at 11:11 am – is an absolutely inane
comment.

The delusional never knows when the shoe fits.  The usual incoherent
answers are given.  An inference is an inference is an inference. 

Conclusions from inferences are not conclusions from truth, therefore,
one who concludes from inferences self-enables one’s own delusions.

Demonstrating not knowing anything of merit and unable to contribute
to the discussion, it looks like no one cares what you blathered at any
time
on this forum.  It is fraudulent not to answer elisalouisa, but then
that is a personal opinion and I have no care in the least whether or not
any answer is given.

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By OzarkMichael, May 19, 2012 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

Troy, you claim to be different from the “enablers of fascism.” So far you point out that Shenonymous, Leefeller, Maani, Leefeller arent doing anything. Obviously something must be done because you feel that fascism is already here in full force and there is no sense just talking about it. Not that i agree with you at all. i think its all just make believe. But I am able to pretend that you are right. To put myself in your shoes. I know it confuses people, but I can explore your world, i can think and write this post based on your beliefs. Its my talent, an almost detective talent for delving into your truth.

Ready?
 
You accuse the ‘talkers’ of enabling fascism at a level that by definition is Hitlerian level fascism. It is as if they are German citizens and Hitler is in power. Just talking and talking makes them the equivalent of enabling fascism, because it enables Hitler to continue unimpeded.

OK, it sounds good. Very rightious. You are really good at berating ‘talkers’ for only talking about fascism.

They just talk about what fascism is, while you want to talk about solutions. You shame them for mere talk. But here is a little problem, a little quirk that we can all see in you Troy… that you are just talking! You berate others for being “fascist enablers”, but how are you different from them? 

Have you actually done anything? You proclaim with certainty that our government is “fascist”... you are absolutely sure of it… no discussion needed… but what have you done about it, besides wanting to talk about doing something? Talk is just talk and it isnt action. Please tell me something you have done that shows us how serious you are about fighting fascism. 

What have you done to overthrow the fascist regime? 

Please dont say something trivial. This is Hitlerian “fascism” so you surely have done something significant to try to stop it. You ought to place your life on the line to take the government down ASAP!

So please dont tell me that you have done something insignificant like maybe you boycotted a consumer product (lets say Mennen hair spray) because they advertise on Rush Limbaugh. Dont tell me that is the extent of your sacrifice! Is that what the French Resistance to Fascism consisted of, not using hair spray?

Please dont tell us that you have acted in some sort of street theatre. Really? Our Hitlerian fascist government is going to collapse because you are an accomplished thespian?

Please dont tell us that you abstain from eating meat. Really? Would Hitler have quaked in his boots at your dietary habits?

Please dont tell us that you refuse to vote. I ask you, would that give Hitler nightmares? Really?

Real conviction that our government is fascist demands real action from the person that believes it.

Please dont tell us that you are waiting for other people to tell you want to do. You are the one who doesnt need discussion to arrive at the right answer.

Please dont tell us that you need other people to agree with you before you can do anything. Arent you free to act alone? Arent you free to act now?

Ok, that enough. It should be obvious to everyone, even to Troy, that he is no different from the rest of you. 

I have shown that none of you really believe in all this “omg, our government is getting fascist” “Oh no its more fascist than ever!” “Oh dear we must do something!” crap. Perhaps Troy talks more excitely than the others. All he has to do is calm down just a little and he fits right in.  That should make you wonder at the intellectual level of your talks, give pause to the rationality of the topic, but it wont.

Personally, I dont believe in the current fascist demonology game that you guys are playing. Phony lists of so-called “fascist characteristics” serve to demonize your political opponents. Thats what it is for and thats all it does.

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment

If anyone can recall at this point after so much obfuscation from those who claim to be interested in a qualitative discussion of fascism in America, in my original post I made an observation.

I observed that although there is much talk on this thread about fascism, no one who was discussing fascism offered any solutions to the phenomenom of growing fascism in America.

I further noted that the goal seemed to be to “talk the issue to death” rather than engage in a meaningful discussion about real life solutions to the devolution of America into a fascist state.

For making such observations, I was viciously and ruthlessly attacked by those whom I can truthly characterize as “fascist enablers” whose goal it is to prevent meaningful discussion that offer real life solutions to the growing problem of fascism in America.

And, sadly, here I am posting once again to this thread waiting patiently for anyone of these “enablers” to offer up solutions.

Of course, as far as I know, hell has not frozen over yet, and until then no such solutions will be forthcoming from those who claim to be interested in a discussion of fascism.

Apparently, so long as the issue remains merely a discussion of fascism without any solutions being proposed in a polite, dignified and civilized discussion no one is interested in providing any solutions.

In fact, as I predicted, the enablers on this thread are indeed, asserting that fascism is not a problem in America and fascism is not a growing threat to American democracy.

Now, if you choose to believe these enablers, so be it.  However, forewarned is forearmed so posters and readers of this thread are fully aware of the true purpose of the fascist enablers who talk, talk, talk, talk the issue to death ad nauseam, while the real fascists work tirelessly 24/7, mostly in secret, to establish the fascist state that will replace our American constitutional democracy.

So, if the goal is to prevent meaningful discussion of solutions to fascism in America, the enablers have been very effective in achieving their collective goal.

However, I reiterate, “ye reap what ye sow” so when these enablers discover themselved engulfed in the fascist state with nowhere else to turn but their fascist overlords, then and only then will these enablers realize the folly of the efforts.

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 12:11 pm Link to this comment

Elisalouisa says:

What “solution” does Troy have that he won’t come out and say. What do many anarchists advocate that OWS won’t go along with?  Just follow my link.”


This is clearly an unjustified personal attack against me with the clear inference that I must be an “anarchist”.

There is absolutely nothing in any of my posts to justify such an accusation, and once again we have the “enablers” engaging in personal attacks instead of offering solutions to the fascism in America.

This is the hallmark of such enablers. Deflect attention away from the issue by engaging in personal attacks to distract from the fact that such enablers offer no solutions because they support the devolution of America in a fascist state and they never intend to offer any solutions.

The goal is to deflect actions to prevent the establishment of a fascist state until it is too little, too late to do anything effective to prevent the fascist state from becoming a reality.

And so it goes, on and on on, obfuscation, deflection and even denial that fascism is taking hold in America. Such is the goal of enablers.

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By elisalouisa, May 19, 2012 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

“Oh, well, so be it. Such is the true nature of enablers. Talk, talk, talk. Endless useless talk without any proposed actions [solution], the hallmark of the enabler.”

What “solution” does Troy have that he won’t come out and say. What do many anarchists advocate that OWS won’t go along with?  Just follow my link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5GhNEULrls&feature=related

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2012 at 11:45 am Link to this comment

The absurdity of expecting others to solve what only oneself perceives
as a problem shows a paucity of intellect.  Suggestion, go to sleep as
no such solution will be forthcoming from me as I do not perform,
even if I had solutions, or thought I did, to anyone’s pathetically weak
tune.  Far as I am concerned, it will come only through discussion to
which, obviously, nothing can be contributed from the inarticulate and
illiterate constant blogwhiner.

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

She has begun “her?” disertation on the characteristics of fascism for the enlightenment of us all.

Take note,please, dear posters that thus far havin addressed 2 of the alleged 14 characteristics, SHE has offered no solution(s, not one. How surprising!

We can reiterate over and over and over again the characteristics of fascism but unfortunately no one has any “solutions”. Is this surprising. No! Not at all, I predicted no such solutions would be offered and that SHE, being the enabler she most certainly demonstrates, will not offer any because that would undermine her role on this thread as an enabler.

Oh, well, so be it. Such is the true nature of enablers. Talk, talk, talk. Endless useless talk without any proposed actions [solution], the hallmark of the enabler. Take note everyone. Take note.

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2012 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

Oops.  I received the message Page not Found and thought my
second post had been denied!  But I now see there are two copies
on the forum!  My apologies.  It is difficult to calculate this stuff
sometimes.

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2012 at 10:32 am Link to this comment

The site Truthdig webcensor won’t allow the post of the #2s as they
were published by the authors so I had to modify it just a bit.  The
word prpgnda is the culprit as I tested it.  How shall we judge that
censorship?

The #2s:
Britt’s
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a
hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever
use of prpgnda, the population was brought to accept these human
rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted.
When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and
disinformation.

Eco’s
2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism.
Both Fascists and Nazis worshipped technology, while traditionalist
thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values.
However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements,
its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon
blood and earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was
disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life. The Enlightenment,
the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this
sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

Do we have examples of the #1s and #2s?

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2012 at 10:23 am Link to this comment

The #2s:
Britt’s
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a
hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever
use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human
rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted.
When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and
disinformation.

Eco’s
2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism.
Both Fascists and Nazis worshipped technology, while traditionalist
thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values.
However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements,
its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon
blood and earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was
disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life. The Enlightenment,
the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this
sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

Do we have examples in the United Staes of the #1s and #2s that
qualifies it as fascistic?  There would have to be enough exmaples, mind
you!

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2012 at 10:21 am Link to this comment

I wasn’t referring to OM.  He know that.  Take a look in the mirror,
TD, at the egotist who thinks it is someone else.  What a fool you are.

Surely you noticed Maani I didn’t specify to whom I was referring.
Are you extrapolating from your own observations? Also I wasn’t
advocating silencing the perpetrator of the ugly accusations, as I’ve
defended even the most egregious Right-Wing Conservatives’ right
to free speech as I hold that right as sacred if I hold anything sacred.
I was only recommending silencing ourselves to respond to ugly
accusations.  Ignorance can exist in many corners.

Leefeller, it’s a fair challenge to compare Ur-Fascism’s 14-points with
Britt’s, which I hope you noticed I was not holding either higher in
estimation.  But if we are to be complete and the two do exist, it might
be to our own credit to see what can be wrested from both.  To Britt’s let
us compare and contrast, meaning seeing the sameness and differences,
it with Eco’s.  Starting with the #1s:

Britt’s
1. 1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel
pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the
regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious.
Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were
common themes in expressing this nationalism.

It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often
bordered on xenophobia.

Eco’s
1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition.
Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it
typical of counterrevolutionary Catholic thought after the French
revolution, but is was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to
classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of
different religions (most of the faiths indulgently accepted by the Roman
pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of
human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique,
had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten
languages—in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls
of the little-known religions of Asia.
This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the
dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice;”
such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original
messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and although they seem to say
different or incompatible things, they all are nevertheless alluding,
allegorically, to the same primeval truth.
As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth
already has been spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep
interpreting its obscure message.

If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled
New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine, who, as far as I know,
was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge—that
is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

She stated:

Well, the true fascist has spoken dismissing all who truly understand whilst he is completely ignorant and delusion is the driving force. 

Supreme contemptuousness is concluded to be the motivation of the interloper who shows an unconscious of the true source of his slimy accusations and who would subvert constitutionally guaranteed individual freedoms thereby showing the hypocrisy of his nationalistic comments. 

He is the epitome of the authoritarian and intolerant type that this forum is about and demonstrates the exact kind of dangerous individual who must be deactivated, meaning we, who recognize this as
the current case, need to be united in opposition to this kind of assault and completely brush him off as we would a piece of dandruff.  I would admonish this to be recognized to prevent tainting our own integrity in giving any legitimacy to the abusive comments while we continue “our” discussion.”

While it is not my responsibility to be a defender of anyone on this thread. I can and do take exception to your vile, vitriolic and venomous attack upon OzarkMichael.

I acknowledge is alleged “patriotism” smacks of fascist attitudes and inclinations but I think your condemnation of him was over the line. It most certainly is a veiled personal attack against him/her and completely unnecessary.

This coming from YOU, who insist upon a “polite” and “civilized” discussion of the issue.

First you encourage OzarkMichael, then you “enable” him, and now you condemn him.

Utterly shameful of you, but then again, “enablers” such as yourself know no shame and have no shame so I should not be surprised by your hateful condemnation of OzarkMichael.

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

Tick, tock, tick, tock. I am waiting for this alleged discussion of “solutions”. The clock is ticking,time is slip, sliding away. Let us partake of the proferred discussion, engaging in a dialogue that offe up solutions.

Or was that mere rhetoric from a fascist enabler whose bark is so much more than their bite?

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By Maani, May 19, 2012 at 8:31 am Link to this comment

She:

“He is the epitome of the authoritarian and intolerant type that this forum is about and demonstrates the exact kind of dangerous individual who must be deactivated, meaning we, who recognize this as the current case, need to be united in opposition to this kind of assault and completely brush him off as we would a piece of dandruff.  I would admonish this to be recognized to prevent tainting our own integrity in giving any legitimacy to the abusive comments while we continue “our”
discussion.”

I’m not sure whether your tongue is at least partially in your cheek (LOL), but isn’t this sort of what you yourself called “subvert[ing] constitutionally guaranteed individual freedoms?”

We may all agree that Troy has myopic, even dangerous tendencies.  But he, too, is entitled to his opinion, and we, as defenders of the First Amendment, should continue to engage him, even if we are unlikely to change his mind even one iota.  Certainly, we should ignore the unnecessary and irrelevant name-calling and other unproductive aspects of his posts.  But whatever his viewpoint, he is entitled to it, and “shunning” would not seem to be the answer.

To the famous comment that “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,” I would add, “and I will engage you on your viewpoint, both in the hope that I might persuade you otherwise, and to sharpen my own forensic teeth.”  LOL.

Peace.

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By Leefeller, May 19, 2012 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

A thought, one of few!

She, I would love to discuss the 14 points of Fascism as it relates to our great nation and others for comparison. Comparing 14 points seems a task for gluttony, but after my whining about Fascism over the last several years it would be nice to address the topic with reasoned depth.  Over the past years I have felt thwarted and made to feel like ‘John the Baptist’, only being fortunate to be loosing my head metaphorically.

I do not know Ecos Fascist points, but if you would post the companion characteristics to Britts maybe we all can discuss them,... well as expert ‘fascist enablers’? (did you link them below?)

I was getting ready to throw in Brtts next Fascist characteristic, but lets see if we can do this slower, also I would like when we get to the one on relgion, to include some discussion on Eloweasa’s “Christian Fascist”.

What say you Liberal, pinko Fascist Enablers?

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 8:24 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous states:

“To further “our” conversation, I suggest that we take each of the 14 points of Eco and Britt, perhaps comparing them first, then find factual examples as they appear to exist today in our culture to see if indeed the menace of fascism is on the brink of seizing our government.  That way instead of witless reactive personal opinion, there will be a rational
basis for formulated conclusions. “

Well, well, well, finally stimulated by my proactive demand that solutions be offered up as part of the discussion, SHE urges such a qualitative discussion offering potential solutions take place.

Let us see is such a thing occurs, or if as I suspect, such a discussion on this thread will ultimately lead to the conclusion that fascism is not real and poses no real threat to American democracy.

We shall see. Who,pray tell me, will begin such a discussion?

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2012 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

Well, the true fascist has spoken dismissing all who truly understand
whilst he is completely ignorant and delusion is the driving force. 
Supreme contemptuousness is concluded to be the motivation of the
interloper who shows an unconscious of the true source of his slimy
accusations and who would subvert constitutionally guaranteed
individual freedoms thereby showing the hypocrisy of his nationalistic
comments.  He is the epitome of the authoritarian and intolerant type
that this forum is about and demonstrates the exact kind of dangerous
individual who must be deactivated, meaning we, who recognize this as
the current case, need to be united in opposition to this kind of assault
and completely brush him off as we would a piece of dandruff.  I would
admonish this to be recognized to prevent tainting our own integrity in
giving any legitimacy to the abusive comments while we continue “our”
discussion.

A fascist is defined as “oppressive”, “intolerant”, “chauvinist”, “genocidal”,
“dictatorial”, “racist”, or “aggressive,” inspired by the ideology of actual
fascism.  The fascist type prioritizes the maintenance of idiosyncratically
perceived social relations over various personal rights and the truth of
actuality, privileging their own conception of order over freedom in the
discourse of those who disagree with the fascist, manufacturing a neo-
racism of Him vs. Them. 

George Orwell, the extraordinary observer of human societies, wrote,
“Fascism – unlike communism, socialism, capitalism, or conservatism – is
a smear word more often used to brand one’s foes than it is a descriptor
used to shed light on them.” 

In a definitive book, “The Anatomy of Fascism,” Robert O. Paxton retired
professor of political science and history, quotes George W. Bush’s 20th
century definition,

“The terrorists are the heirs to fascism,...They have the
same will to power, the same disdain for the individual,
the same mad global ambitions. And they will be dealt
with in just the same way. Like all fascists, the terrorists
cannot be appeased: they must be defeated.’‘

Terrorists come in many forms, not the least of which are not only far
over the mental edge of the right but comparatively the same extremism
is found in those on the left of the political spectrum.

To further “our” conversation, I suggest that we take each of the 14
points of Eco and Britt, perhaps comparing them first, then find factual
examples as they appear to exist today in our culture to see if indeed
the menace of fascism is on the brink of seizing our government.  That
way instead of witless reactive personal opinion, there will be a rational
basis for formulated conclusions.

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By Leefeller, May 19, 2012 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

Fascist enabler Leefeller here!

Britts indicator 2 of Fascism seems more evolved in the Fascist grand scheme of things, using fear appears to be a common practice by fascism opportunists but in this case just one more important part of the political happenings. 

“2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights—Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that
human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need”. The people tend to ‘look the other way’ or even approve of torture, summary executions,
assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.”

This seems one of the strong Fascist indicators as human rights are trampled while we watch,  but this could also be said of China who has a proclivity to trample peoples human rights and look the other way. Or how about North Korea or even Saudi Arabia for Human rights abuses, a long list of different forms of governments trample human rights, so it appears Fascisim is not alone in in this?

Lets not ignore fear used by religion to deny basic human rights either, actually another discussion, what of the Christian Fascists brought to our attention?

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By Maani, May 19, 2012 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

Troy:

“Folks, those of you who are now aware of what a “fascist enabler"is and how they operate, Maani has self-identified as an enabler and therefore no more time need be wasted paying any attention to posts from Maani. Period. End of story.”

Your continuing identification of me in this way would be amusing were it not so sad.  Others here know who I am much better than you do.

And by the way…“Divide and conquer” - which is what your comment about me amounts to - is one aspect of fascism.

Peace.

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 6:17 am Link to this comment

Folks, those of you who are now aware of what a “fascist enabler"is and how they operate, Maani has self-identified as an enabler and therefore no more time need be wasted paying any attention to posts from Maani. Period. End of story.

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By Troy Davis, May 19, 2012 at 5:44 am Link to this comment

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnn, Sigh, it would be ever so much more beneficial to identify all of the alleged characteristics of fascism, associate them with identifiable qualities in America and then discuss how to overcome the slow, irrevocable march towards fascism in America and global.

If you want to enable fascism just keep posting criteria that establishes the characteristics [in your minds] of fascism but never, ever offer any solutions to it.

See, that is what fascist enablers do, they identify, and then they talk, talk, talk, the issue to death without ever offering any solutions. Such is the nature of the beast [fascism] that enablers only talk, talk, talk, ad nauseam until it is too late to do anything about the fascism they enable.

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By Leefeller, May 19, 2012 at 2:47 am Link to this comment

“Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism”

“Laurence Britt, a political scientist, wrote an article about fascism which appeared in Free Inquiry magazine—a journal of humanist thought.  Mr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile). He found the regimes all had 14 things in common, and he calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The article is titled ‘Fascism Anyone?’, by Laurence Britt, and appears in Free
Inquiry’s Spring 2003 issue on page 20.”

Link: http://www.anotheramerica.org/fascism.htm

Of the 14 characteristics of Britts 14 points, why not start with one?


“1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism—Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia.
Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.”

By the way She, it is nice to see other people are aware and find the cautionary note of Britts points having some substance as not to find myself alone on them.

Yes the patriotic mottos, like the Patrizio act and of course our homeland security come to mind, politicians wrapping themselves in flags and talking up the nations as the great nation of ours. 

I find Britts number one point amusing, when one considers the new world order for what it seems to be and now and how this only dove tails with the propaganda it provides for the fear induced huddled masses.

Fascist characteristic number one seems to have some merit, we see right here in River City how some people love to fawn over patriotic platitudes and symobols and stress how they would die for them. Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism

Laurence Britt, a political scientist, wrote an article about fascism which appeared in Free Inquiry magazine—a journal of humanist thought.  Mr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile). He found the regimes all had 14 things in common, and he calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The article is titled ‘Fascism Anyone?’, by Laurence Britt, and appears in Free
Inquiry’s Spring 2003 issue on page 20.

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism—Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia.
Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

It should be known my comments are not set in stone, nor or they expected to be anyone else s opinion or the opinion of management, nor do my opinions serve to have any answers, solutions but only awareness of a problem I see reserved requiring some merit.

Onward next for Fascist enablers and fanatics of Britts Characteristic number 2.

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By Shenonymous, May 18, 2012 at 11:29 pm Link to this comment

It won’t hurt to have it repeated anyway, let me try that list again
without, hopefully, the pesky question marks that happen when copy
pasting from posts on TD that have used hard returns, if anyone else
knows what I mean:

        Laurence Britt’s 14-Characteristics of Fascism

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism
2. Disdain for the recognition of human rights
3. Identification of an enemy or scapegoat as a unifying cause
4. Supremacy of the military
5. Rampant sexism
6. Controlled mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and government intertwined
9. Corporate power protected
10. Labor power suppressed
11. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent elections

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By Shenonymous, May 18, 2012 at 11:14 pm Link to this comment

How utterly coincidental, elisalouisa! (And by the way, thank you so
much for remembering the lady among the fellows, and I certainly
include you in that category as well), but my exclamation was because
I have my copy of Eco’s “Five Moral Pieces” here on my computer table
and was re-reading Ur-Fascism the fourth essay of the very small
but powerful book.  An amazing piece.  The Liverpool Way that you
linked is from what Eco himself published in the NYTimes New York
Review of Books, 22 June 1995, at
http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html 
I only refer you there because there are links to Eco’s other works that
might be read in one’s leisure and might be found to be of incredible
wisdom, which is something I think we cannot get enough of, wisdom
from wherever it comes.  Some of us truthdippers, including OM,
Sodium Na (using another ID name then), and myself have had much
conversation about this topic these many years ago on TD.  It is not a
topic that goes to sleep for very long. 

There is another 14-points also amazing that shows up now and then
that Maani introduced to truthdippers in February 2008 in another
Eugene Robinson article, Tortured Semantics, 14 Characteristics of
Fascism written in 2003 by Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist. This
can be found in their expanded form here but succinctly put, they are:
1. Powerful and continuing nationalism?
2. Disdain for the recognition of human rights?
3. Identification of an enemy or scapegoat as a unifying cause?
4. Supremacy of the military?
5. Rampant sexism?
6. Controlled mass media?
7. Obsession with national security?
8. Religion and government intertwined?
9. Corporate power protected?
10. Labor power suppressed?
11. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts?
12. Obsession with crime and punishment?
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption?
14. Fraudulent elections

In his amazing and prescient post, Maani also writes,

“The reason why the masses don’t stop this process
is because at each step the government uses fear
and propaganda to both keep people from seeing
what is happening, and to reinforce the people’s
“comfort” with these changes in the name of “safety
and security.”  The “paternalism” of government,
especially when re-inforced by propaganda, is an
enormously powerful palliative for the masses.  Not
only do they not FIGHT it, they come to both accept
and WANT it.  [“There was nothing left in them except
sorrow for what they had done, and love of Big Brother. 
It was touching to see how they loved Big Brother.”
George Orwell, 1984.]

How do you wake up the masses when they happily accept
the idea of a national ID card, leading to a “Your papers,
please” society, and gleefully accept the implantation of
trackable RFID chips in their arms?”

Leefeller has been a frequent reminder of Britts 14-points.

The Eco piece is mind-stunning and I recommend reading the essay in
its entirety.

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By Maani, May 18, 2012 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment

Troy:

I said, “But if you maintain an aggressive and insulting attitude toward those who disagree with you, you are far LESS likely to change minds, much less create allies.  Because despite the myopia of your extremism - and the fact that you are allowing your passions to cloud your judgment - we are actually all on the same side.”

You responded:

“Notice that is amounts to a personal attack upon my person. Also note the use of the use of the word ‘extremism’ [although nothing I have said is ‘extreme’] in the desire to mischaracterize my post as being oustside the ‘normal boundaries’ of the ‘polite’ and civilized discussion that is used here to diffuse opposition to fascism.”

Not “personal attack,” Troy, but observation.  That you are myopic and extreme is, I believe, not in doubt by most (if anyone) here.  That is quite different from a “personal attack.”  If you don’t know the difference, that just proves how yopic you really are.

You then add, “I reiterate that those who disagree with fascist enablers are inevitably portrayed using terms like ‘extremism,’ ‘myopic,’ ‘emotional’ [unstable], etc., ad nauseam.”

Firstly, it is YOU who is equating “emotional” with “unstable.”  I never suggested any such thing, nor would I.  More importantly, your attempt to suggest that my (or others’) use of particular terms is itself an attempt to “portray” you in some way is either highly paranoid, or a way to deflect the fact that you may well be extreme, myopic and emotional - regardless of what your position is.

Peace.

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By OzarkMichael, May 18, 2012 at 9:33 pm Link to this comment

If you ever succeeded in overthrowing our current government, Troy, I would realize it would be my turn to act and overthrow whatever you and your Leftist buddies would extablish, because it would be hell. It always is. Read some history.

I would choose to participate in what you Leftists call “reaction” and “counterrevolution” . i wouldnt hesitate or talk-talk-talk. I would act. 

Its not a threat. Its a promise.

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By Troy Davis, May 18, 2012 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment

Ozark says:

“Instead, I side with the people you might call outright “fascists”. Not that i am one, but thats what your opinion of me would be.”

Well, how refreshing. Herein we have a self-avowed fascist. But wait, an avowal followed by a denial? What is to be made of this seeming contradiction. Is Ozark a fascist or not?

Why, pray tell me, would I hold such an opinion of you?

Ozark then says: ” But me, I know what people like Troy are capable of if they have power over others. I would pledge my life and my honor to return this nation to a representative government. I participate in what you call a “reaction” or “counterrevolution”.

Well, well, well!  So, if I am to understand Ozark, he believes America is in need of the need for America to “return to representative government”. So, Ozark, is a counterrevolutionary. He seems himself as the ultimate patriot seeking a reestablishment of the democratic principles that underpin or constitutional republic. Am I to believe he is out there promoting revolution? Can he rightly be characterized as a “terrorist” by the current “regime” under the Patriot Act. It certainly sounds like he is advocating violence? Is he, in fact dedicated to the violent overthrow of the American government?

Well, now if he is a fascist as he initially asserts what is his goal. To establish fascism as the new government? But, no that cannot be because he avows his determination to “return” America to a representative government.

So, it must be that America represents something other, in his mind, than democracy? He must see the current democracy as a “communist? or socialist? one that undermines democracy? What, is this what he is asserting? Who knows.

Ozark then says:

“So be aware, Troy. When push comes to shove, your real opposition is me. The rest are talkers and bystanders”

A dire warning indeed, perhaps even recognizable as a threat. How he intends to follow through on this specious threat from the relative safety of his cowardly anonymity is unclear. However, it is evident that his “patriotic fervor” has been riled up and he is determined to defend the republic to the death, perhaps even my death if I intrepret the meaning of his words correctly.

Well, let us understand that “extremism in defense of liberty is no vice”—-Barry S. Goldwater

So, patriots like Ozark are out there lurking in the shadows waiting for their opportunity, much I imagine like Timothy McVeigh, to do their patriotic duty to God and country to destroy anything and anybody perceived by him in his delusional state as a threat to the republic. How very, very reassuring.

So, while he offers no solutions to fascism and may well embrace it in the misguided belief it will avail him of the opportunity to defend the republic, we are at least making some progress in addressing those core beliefs that lead one to a submission to fascist ideation.

If only, someone, anyone would offer up a solution to the devolution into fascism in America that threatens the very fabric of our constitutional democracy.

Alas, such is not the case and the talk, even the violent, tough talk, goes on and on and on and on ad nauseam!

How utterly sad. Sad indeed.

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By elisalouisa, May 18, 2012 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment

Correction:

Lady and Fellow Posters:

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By elisalouisa, May 18, 2012 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment

Fellow posters:

Perhaps after all is said and done, many are completely unaware that they are attracted to a fascistic way of governing whether in religion or government. Humans may be so wired that various forms of fascism are attractive and even sought after. Thus efforts to revamp/reprogram man is a lost cause for the attraction to fascism is too deeply imbedded and the need for a leader, wise and benevolent, is too great. If such a leader were to turn to a form of fascism as a way to rule, his followers, capturing the spirit of zeitgeist, would eagerly follow. “The People” might see this as being under one who is wise and benevolent, even considering themselves fortunate to have such a leader. Their slavish condition would be denied. Such qualities would allow fascism to return again and again under various disguises.

There are 14 qualities to Umberto Eco’s Eternal Fascism

Check it out:
http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/gf-general-forum/93279-eternal-fascism-fourteen-ways-looking-blackshirt-umberto-eco.html

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By OzarkMichael, May 18, 2012 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment

Dear Troy:

I am not a “fascist enabler”. Dont include me in that group, I dont have anything to do with talk-talk-talk about how “far we are into fascism”, because to me its all lies. Do not include me in the group with them, I find it embarrassing. Instead, I side with the people you might call outright “fascists”. Not that i am one, but thats what your opinion of me would be.

The talkers here would be glad if folks like Troy overthrew our so-called “fascist” government. “What could be worse than fascism?” they would say, and “Surely this will be better!”

But me, I know what people like Troy are capable of if they have power over others. I would pledge my life and my honor to return this nation to a representative government. I participate in what you call a “reaction” or “counterrevolution”.

So be aware, Troy. When push comes to shove, your real opposition is me. The rest are talkers and bystanders.

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By OzarkMichael, May 18, 2012 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment

Yes, caution is always a good thing, and despite your continued use of the term “fascist enablers,” I think I speak for all of us (She, EL, OM and myself) when I say that we are all cognizant of recent history (as well a less recent history), and are as concerned as you are about any potentiality for true proto-fascism or outright fascism in the U.S.

Thank you for your inclusive approach, Maani, that was kind of you. Unfortunately I cant honestly accept inclusion in your group that is “cognizant” of ‘fascism’ whether of the proto-, neo-, hypo-, or full-frontal variety. In fact i am not cognizant of any such thing. I think these “fascism” cognitions are emotional and not rational at all. They are self-serving rants for the “cognizant” crowd and have little to do with reality.

Actually, i agree with Eugene Robinson. I think that accusations of fascism provide evidence of extremism in the folks who MAKE the accusation, not the people being accused. 

Accusations of fascism damage our political communication, which is a “poison that cant be safely ignored”, just like Eugene said. If only Eugene was also correct when he proclaimed that such crazy poisonous accusations are never made by the Left.

If only.

However, if I really believed in those accusations of fascism, I wouldnt just talk about it. If i really believed it, I would do something. I certainly wouldnt keep talking about how bad it is, and next year exxlaim at how much worse its getting, and then two years later its “oh no! fascism is worse now!” and four years later:“oh no! another one of the characteristics of fascism is now firmly in place!”

I wouldnt wring my hands every month as “fascism” got stronger and stronger and worse and worse for 4 years here on Truthdig.

No. I would realize that I should have done something yesterday to prevent the progression of “fascism”, and would be ashamed that i hadnt done it already. It will be even harder to fix it every year. Why wait any longer? It would be time to act but real action perishes, it drowns, in a sea of talk-talk-talk.

Fortunately, I think the whole “fascism” talk is a crock. I dont believe it is true at all. I dont think we have fascism here. I have proven many times, right here on Truthdig, how the talk-talk-talk accusers of fascism use lies, double standards, and massive hypocrisy. Not just once in awhile, but regularly.

Nevertheless the “Oh no! its fascism!” game goes on. Well, Maani, I am not one of them. Thank you for the polite inclusion, but in fairness I do not belong in the group. Even if i did believe it, i wouldnt be in the talk-talk-talk group.

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By Leefeller, May 18, 2012 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

Well Mannie thank you, it took a couple of tequilas but I managed to wade through all the posts. Some I found very enlightening and the others by OM. 

I actually appreciate a more cautionary approach to mounting the Fascist label on what is going on around us, so for now I am riding the Fascism Label side saddle. I do find the red states appear to be leaning more and more in tune with the Fascist label then the Feds do.  For now I find myself someplace in the middle, a flip flopper if you will on the state of Fascism. 

After reading Troy Davis’s posts I find myself moving and backing away from my previous feeling on Fascism, probably placing me more in the “fascist enabler” section then an ‘extremist’ peanut gallery?

Opportunism has many fascists and I suppose most of them well hidden in the choreographed closet of manipulations, taking advantage of programed ignorance, abject apathy and providing a good old buggering called enabling?

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By Leefeller, May 18, 2012 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Mannie, appreciate and I will take your advice, the reason I did not read all the posts before my web use is limited so I must wear my kilt and take time out to play me bagpipes for frugality’s sake.

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By Troy Davis, May 18, 2012 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

In my three part post about “fascist enablers” I omitted a very important aspect of the behavior of “fascist enablers”.  There is a very distinct and deliberate effort to express rhetorical opposition to fascism without the subsequent expression of real life, genuine “solutions” ever being proffered by such “enablers”.

In other words, fascist enablers, whomever they may be, understand the terminology of dissent, they comprehend the rhetoric necessary to portray themselves as genuine adherents of democratic principles without the requisite “deeds” necessary to demonstrate genuine commitment to democracy.

I reiterate that those who disagree with fascist enablers are inevitably portrayed using terms like “extremism”, “myopic”, “emotional” [unstable], etc., ad nauseam. This is a tactic employed, as I have asserted in my earlier posting, to deflect attention away from the lack of solutions being provided by a “fascist enabler” in the hope of neutralizing the comments of any poster who reveals such people to be such fascist enablers.

It is a very juvenile, immature, facetious and superficial effort that is clearly identifiable to anyone aware of the strategies and tactics employed by such enablers.


The dimunuation of others who disagree with them, or who reveal them to be such enablers permeates such posts and always characterizes such enablers.

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By Troy Davis, May 18, 2012 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

Manni states:

“But if you maintain an aggressive and insulting attitude toward those who disagree with you, you are far LESS likely to change minds, much less create allies.  Because despite the myopia of your extremism - and the fact that you are allowing your passions to cloud your judgment - we are actually all on the same side.”

Notice that is amounts to a personal attack upon my person. Also note the use of the use of the word “extremism” [although nothing I have said is “extreme”] in the desire to mischaracterize my post as being oustside the “normal boundaries” of the “polite” and civilized discussion that is used here to diffuse opposition to fascism.

Notice also the absence of any solutions. There are none for a reason. I leave it to the judgment of those who understanding the meaning of “fascist enabler” to judge for themselves the purpose of the post by Maani.

Obviously, false characterizations of posters who disgree with them or challenge them to provide genuine solutions combined with the absence of any solutions is the hallmark of a “fascist enabler”. Decide for yourself, keeping in mind my admonitions about fascist enablers and the methodologies they employ to diffuse genuine resistance to fascism.

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By Maani, May 18, 2012 at 11:00 am Link to this comment

Troy:

I admire and respect your very thoughtful, reasoned three-part post, and your calmer approach to the issue. However, I still disagree with you.

My position, as stated earlier, is that, even given everything on your “punch-list” of authoritarian and even anti-democratic items, their mere existence, even at the same time, does not automatically lead to the conclusion that the U.S., as a whole, is proto-fascist, or even leading inexorably thereto.  As I and others have mentioned, there is more to “fascism” - in any meaningful definition of that word - than the aggregation of seemingly (or even actually) authoritarian acts on the part of a govermment.

Yes, caution is always a good thing, and despite your continued use of the term “fascist enablers,” I think I speak for all of us (She, EL, OM and myself) when I say that we are all cognizant of recent history (as well a less recent history), and are as concerned as you are about any potentiality for true proto-fascism or outright fascism in the U.S.

But if you maintain an aggressive and insulting attitude toward those who disagree with you, you are far LESS likely to change minds, much less create allies.  Because despite the myopia of your extremism - and the fact that you are allowing your passions to cloud your judgment - we are actually all on the same side.

Peace.

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By Troy Davis, May 18, 2012 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

Fascist Enablers, Part III:


participation as part of the plutocratic class dominating the society or in service to the plutocracy directly in the police state that oppresses the great masses of the population held in subservience to the MIC.

This dynamic was evidenced in the fascist former USSR. A society that , while claiming adherence to Marxist communist doctrine, in fact established itself as a military dictatorship in which only 16% of the populace belonged to and benefited from membership in the Communist Party. It was a distinctly fascist state that destroyed itself by internal corruption equivalent to the machinations currently occurring in America under MIC domination and control.

Now, that such “fascist enablers” are misguided and delusional goes without saying. That their efforts are utterly detrimental to democracy is valid. That they are sinister, morally bankrupt, and thoroughly corrupt people devoid of all human understanding, compassion and common sense is also self-evident. Their emotional, psychological, and spiritual instability is manifestly obvious to anyone who recognizes them as “fascist enablers”,

So, whenever you encounter one of these “fascist enablers” who proclaim themselves to be intellectually aware of the political reality and who pooh, pooh, genuine concerns about the demise of democracy or who promote the “divide and conquer” mentality, be aware that you are reading the comments from a “fascist enabler” whose genuine interest is motivated by GREED [Get Rich Eviscerating Everything Democratic] and who are acting solely in their own self-interest to diffuse genuine political activism in support of democracy in the hope that the MIC will have the infrastructure fully in place to eradicate democratic opposition of the conversion of America into a fascist state before the American people can do anything meaningful about it.

In short they will “talk the issue to death” becoming so tiresome in the effort that all interest in the issue is immobilized. They hope to be the “last man standing” in the discussion thereby winning by default what they cannot achieve by corrupt ideological adherence to fascist ideation.

When the truth is revealed to them, fascist enablers, immediately engage in psychological “projection” in an effort to divert attention away from themselves by accusing others of holding the very views to which they adhere. They will accuse others of being “anarchists, terrorists, etc., in the hope of frightening everyone away from a genuine discussion of solutions to the fascism.

Whenever you encounter such posters on TD or anywhere else for that matter, [keeping in mind that in America there are nearly 60 million such enablers “at large” in the society], read their comments looking for ‘answers”, and “solutions” to the growing global and American fascism and determine for yourselves whether such posters offer any.

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By Troy Davis, May 18, 2012 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

Fascist Enablers, Part II:

The Military Industrial Complex [MIC] is firmly established in America and globally and every decision made is based upon achieving the goals of the multinational global MIC. The goal of the MIC is the establishment of a global fascist state in which the general masses are oppressed by a militarized global police state that serves the interests of the wealthy elite expressed as corporate [fascist] government.

The goal is the elimination of the middle class thus reestablishing a two classed society with the wealthy elite forming a plutocracy with the rest of society being relegated to a “feudal” state in which the masses are kept in abject poverty with a militarized police force that serves the plutocracy by oppression of the populace.

This model has been in existence for thousands of years. It has never been achieved on a global basis because of cultural, racial and religious differences. However, all of those things have been neutralized by the MIC and everything is in place in implement the global fascist state. Allegiance to the MIC is the ultimate goal in a completely secularized world devoted solely to the establishment of corporate [fascist] government.

‘Fascist enablers’ who post on this website on various threads are fully aware of the implementation of the fascist state. They fear that an aware and alert populace will resist the fascist state and prevent the destruction of democracy.

Therefore, one of the most obvious strategies employed by such “fascist enablers” [who either belong to the MIC, support the goals of the MIC, or benefit financial from the MIC] is to pooh, pooh, any and all claims that America and the world are living under the power and influence of the MIC.

They offer no solutions. They provide no remedies. They attack everyone and anyone who challenges their deliberately “pollyannic” refutations that fascism is not only growing in America but that the MIC is secretly [and not so secretly] establishing the infrastructure to implement its fascist goals.  They assert that any such claims are exaggerated, despite ample evidence to the contrary, and that America in particular is years, [perhaps even a generation away], down the line and there is no need to address such concerns because it is all just an “overblown” claim made by [of course] fanatics on both the “radical left” and “radical right”.

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By Troy Davis, May 18, 2012 at 9:24 am Link to this comment

Fascist Enablers, Part I:

Apparently, there are many who post on this thread lacking in sufficient common sense to be able to comprehend the meaning of “fascist enabler”.

There are many people who demonstrate a level of intelligence by their use of words that should render them capable of understanding the meaning of “fascist enabler”. They demonstrate an educational background completely bereft of common experience.

However, intelligence and common sense are not necessarily harmonious or analogous to each other. Many people, although intelligent, have been so corrupted by greed that they are incapable of expressions of human compassion.

Now, though it is a complete waste of valuable time and energy and only serves to identify such “fascist enabler” to those unwary posters who fail to recognize them, it is clear that the effort to talk the issue of whether or not fascism is a reality in America and throughout the world to death while simultaneously providing no genuine, meaningful solutions to the issue of growing fascism, is in and of itself, a definition of “fascist enabler”.

Another tactic demonstrable by the “divide and conquer” strategy so endemic to fascism is the effort by “fascist enablers” who post on this and other threads to allege that the “rift” between the fanatic right and the fanatic left is essential to understanding fascism.

Nothing could be further from the truth, and in fact by focusing upon the “rift” between right and left, fascist enablers engage in the very behavior that immobilizes genuine solutions and leaves everyone in eternal conflict fighting amongst themselves while the real fascists create the infrastructure necessary to accomplish the establishment of a fascist state.

Fascism is not illusory. It is a reality. Constitutional democracy is the illusion. The idea that democracy is alive and well is an illusion.  We have witnessed, beginning in 1980 with the election of Ronald Wilson Reagan, the implementation of the fascist Reagan Revolution.  It culminated in 2000 with the illegal appointment of George W. Bush, Bush II, [the war criminal], followed by the terrorism of September 11, 2001, two illegal and unfunded [immoral] wars, egregious tax breaks for the wealthy elite, and massive financial fraud, perpetrated by Wall Street, [after William Jefferson Clinton signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall in law in 1999].

Fascism is an equal opportunity ideology. It will employ corrupt politicians from both political parties whose elected officials have prostituted themselves to the MIC in the form of loyalty to corporate [fascist] multinational entities.

The two major political parties, [actually one party acting synergistically together to undermine and destroy constitutional democracy], working for the wealthy elite, prostituted by the wealthy elite, act together to destroy American democracy.

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By Shenonymous, May 18, 2012 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

Looks like truthdippers are gleefully reduced to sandbox brawliing,
engaged in a skirmish not really about interpreting the abstract con-
cept fascism, but over who said what.  My goodness, all while the
world is falling into hell!  Way…ell, hell as a metaphor for the abyss
of affliction, agony, the bottomless pit of brimstone and misery. 
How nice of those who sit comfortably in a cozy and protected
American home.  But getting to the nitty gritty of what fascism
really is and whether or not it really exists in the United States let
alone in the world might be a bit too much of an exertion.  It is the
kind of conversation that looks like it is about something of conse-
quence but is in reality signifies… nothing. This remarkably reminds
one familiar of that line in Macbeth (Act 5 Scene 5)... and I admit to
taking conceited license to modifying it slightly, we have here poor
players who strut and fret their space on Truthdig, then is heard
evermore: Here we have a tale told by idiots full of sound and fury…
signifying (as I said) nothing.”  I guess those involved have nothing
better to contribute except special effects of a simulated battle? 
Whatever happened to nobility, you know, that kind in the sense of
dignity?  But much applause to Leefeller who keeps trying to drag the
topic of fascism back to the forum.

Reading the referenced TD April article, Robinson’s outrage at Nugent’s
“foaming mouth” remarks to the NRA convention was IMO properly
placed.  I certainly hope the secret service that now has a tarnished
reputation in its diligence at protecting the President of the United
States keeps an impeccable eye on the President as well as on Nugent,
and every other mouth foaming radical.  At least Alinsky’s radicals did
not foam at the mouth and never made threatening remarks against
anyone.  Robinson: “Nugent compared the Obama administration to
a bunch of “coyotes in your living room” who deserve to be shot.”  If
that is not malevolently and seditiously incendiary then nothing is. 
This is without a doubt a case of encouraging mass murder!  And to a
group who carries guns as much as they wear pants!  Nugent: ““We are
Braveheart. We need to ride into that battlefield and chop their heads
off in November.”  So they carry machetes too!  Yeowie Kazowie! 
Metaphor?  Like shit! 

I have a disagreement with Robinson who took a defensive stance
about the Allen West affair who claimed, lyingly, that there is a plethora
of Democrats in Congress who are Communists.  West names an entire
Committee, so West is an imbecilic asshole to begin with.  That’s just
my opinion.  What I’d like to know is what is the hullabaloo about
communists anyway?  Stalinist, Maoist, Ho Chi Minists, et al, type
communism failed and is so exposed that it does not have any real
viability in this day and age.  And Cuba and the South American
countries’ experiment with it are not doing so well either.  We can see
China change from communism to capitalism right before our very eyes. 
Yes, of course, things can change, especially with fascist tyrants always
waiting in the wings, but so do those who critique and keenly watch
world affairs and eventually the world catches up with the tyrants, albeit
after many human deaths as the cost.  Would it be too crass to say, such
is human history?

Also, when Robinson said, “The far left may hurl insults at the right, but
doesn’t scream “fascism” whenever a Republican proposes privatizing
Medicare,”  I have to disagree as there have been many accusations of
the Republican Party’s fascistic intentions, and I would be one of the
accusers.  But then I do not count.

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By Maani, May 18, 2012 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

Leefeller:

Hi.  Simply as an observation, you have sort of come into the “middle” of a discussion, and should probably take a few minutes to review what was said prior.  I would start right at the bottom here with gerard’s post, and read upward, as John Poole, Shenonymous, elisalouisa, OM and Troy Davis (some of whose posts were removed for over-the-top vulgarity and personal attack) have addressed what seems to be your basic premise.  Once you have done this, you will see clearly where each of us stands on this, and will be able to focus your responses.

Again, that is simply observation.  I have no issue with anything you have posted thus far.

Peace.

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By Leefeller, May 18, 2012 at 7:18 am Link to this comment

This will be my last comment to you OM on side comments, are you even capable of you addressing the topic of Bully politicos from a tainted right wing point of view or can you comment on, what I find as such obvious seeds of Fascism so damn apparent gathering steam as we play games obscuring real issues?

Anyone interested in learning and connecting the dots to what this article addresses and many others have also been cautioning on threats from despotism or fascism, which seems to be hovering over the huddled masses like a pox.
Elisalouisa’s link is interesting on ‘Christian Fascism’ and at the same time questionably amusing as to its credibility as a whole? There does seem to be an Apocalypse bent by a vocal group of our society, the so called squeaky wheel working with the well lubricated money wheel, appearing to be strange bed fellows, for some reason makes me think of the movie; ‘Virgina Wolf’?

Authoritarian politics does not support liberal views in any way shape or form, Fascism (working from memory here on Britts 14 points) and to simplify, controls and manipulates aspects of the government to the benifit of a few. 

Britts religious point on Fascism may be further along in its Fascist direction, especially after reading Elisalouisa’s link, I need to review Britt once more. 

Anyone interested can find Britts 14 points on Fascism on the web. Connecting the 14 dots seems so damn easy, except for those who would obscure them while implementing them until it is too late, again Apocalypse supporters may be part of it?

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By OzarkMichael, May 18, 2012 at 5:28 am Link to this comment

Om, I only brought up the previous thread because it was interesting to me how you went on (its coming back to me now) about Robertson’s comment on Fascism, I suppose in your attempt to make one of your poiints?

Briefly, Eugene Robinson’s Truthdig article was called Right Wing Bully Machine. The premise of his article was that the American Right calls names such as “Communist”, which proves that the Right is evil. The American Left, even the far Left, is good because it never calls names, would never scream that the Right is “Fascist”.

With good humor I objected to that central premise of Robinson’s article: “LOL! oh Eugene… you dont read Truthdig! They scream “fascism” every day.”

Leefeller disputed this. So I provided proof by quoting a “fascist” accusation from that very day on Truthdig.

Leefeller replied that he didnt think one example proves anything. So i quoted one of Leefeller’s own posts where he accuses the Right of fascism.

Leefeller was not convinced. So i found TWO Leefeller posts from ONE day that accused the Right of fascism and quoted those.

Then Leefeller asked why I was putting so much “ozerk on the wall”, did I think “any of it would stick?” So I found TWO more Leefeller posts from another SINGLE day where he made the fascism accusation.

I also made it clear that Leefeller had the freedom and he had every right to make all the accusations of Fascism that he wants. He might have the possiblility of being correct to make the accusation. That is not the point.

Eugene Robinson thought that accusations of fascism are “dangerous poison that cannot be safely ignored”. Robinson thinks that the Left, “even the far Left” does not make accusations of fascism.

I found that it highly ironic that Truthdig of all places would put up that article, and that Leefeller of all people would defend the article.

Leefeller said that i was distracting from the point of the article. He wanted to discuss the Right Wing and its Bully Machine. He wanted to support Robinson’s article. Which also might be true. He has every right to say that the Left is good because it never accuses the Right of Fascism.

But what Leefeller cannot do is make the fascism accusation and then in the same breath claim that he isnt doing it. So i kept quoting more of his other fascism accusations. He found that perplexing.

Right here on this thread for example:

All the earmarks seem to fit as Fascism seems to be falling into place around us.  This article discusses and address Fascism with an inclination just as I see it, Fascism bobbing to the surface in many aspects affecting our nation, all being done in the name of fear. I can list many of them for posteriors sake!

Again, Leefeller, you cant have it both ways.  You employ a double standard. It is logically impossible and it deserves to be laughed at.

Well, I misspoke. You are able to have it both ways. You really can. You and your friends prove that every day here on Truthdig. It is something like an addiction. It involves a high of pleasure mixed with denial.

How common these fascism discussions are, where the accusations flow freely! Poor Eugene. Truthdig made him look like an idiot by putting up his article. Here is the Robinson article:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_right-wing_bully_machine_20120420/

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By elisalouisa, May 17, 2012 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, you are doing a hit and run job on me, except its in slow motion and you will keep doing it over and over.

You are taking this personally Michael and you shouldn’t. We disagree. My olive branch is that perhaps in future time our views will not be as far apart.

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By OzarkMichael, May 17, 2012 at 8:59 pm Link to this comment

I have never felt and hopefully not given the impression that I thought of you as Mr Nut-Job-Minus-One-Almond.

heh good. I was referring to Troy. read that popst again, I reference him twice.

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By elisalouisa, May 17, 2012 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment

Michael, this is about what fascism is and whether the phrase Christian Fascist is appropriate, no? Yes, and I do feel the phrase “Christian Fascist is accurate. However, I have never felt and hopefully not given the impression that I thought of you as Mr Nut-Job-Minus-One-Almond. (Too funny if it weren’t so serious). Just try to stand back as a spectator rather than a participant, is that possible? 

I refer to link below, just one for tonight.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/02/evangelical-christians-want-to-start-wwiii-to-speed-the-second-coming-and-atheist-neocons-are-using-religion-to-rile-them-up-to-justify-war-against-iran.html

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By Leefeller, May 17, 2012 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment

No OM, why not bring it up here?

“While precise accounts of the meaning of authoritarianism, especially fascism, abound, I have no desire, given its shifting nature, to impose a rigid or universal definition. What is to be noted is that many scholars, such as Kevin Passmore and Robert O. Paxton, agree that authoritarianism is a mass movement that emerges out of a failed democracy, and its ideology is extremely anti-liberal, anti-democratic, and anti-socialistic.”

All the earmarks seem to fit as Fascism seems to be falling into place around us.  This article discusses and address Fascism with an inclination just as I see it, Fascism bobbing to the surface in many aspects affecting our nation, all being done in the name of fear. I can list many of them for posteriors sake!

Om, I only brought up the previous thread because it was interesting to me how you went on (its coming back to me now) about Robertson’s comment on Fascism, I suppose in your attempt to make one of your poiints? No apology is necessary, wanted or required, I still see a potential of Fascism before us, Britts 14 points of Fascism seems very close to connecting all the dots of what this article is saying also!

Authoritarian Fascism seems a form of hybrid choreographed opportunism to me, another one to levy the load on me feet of clay.

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