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Arts and Culture

Zachary Karabell on ‘Capitalism and the Jews’

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Posted on Jun 10, 2010
capitalism and the jews

By Zachary Karabell

It’s hard to imagine a more provocative title than “Capitalism and the Jews.” In fact, as I was reading the book, it was striking how many people glanced at the title and gave an ever-so slight but discernible double take. But Jerry Z. Muller’s recent book is neither a polemic nor a setup for a bad lounge joke but is instead a compelling, sober essay about an elephant that has been sitting in the middle of Western history for the past two centuries at least: Jews have been inextricably woven into the history and evolution of capitalism.

The title of Muller’s provocative series of essays comes from Milton Friedman, the apostle of free markets who for decades ruled over the economics profession from his perch at the University of Chicago. But Muller—himself a professor of history at the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.—has a wider range by far. Friedman was interested mostly in the conundrum of why Jews, who had profited so much from the rise of free-market capitalism, were so often the leading critics of it. Muller is compelled by the multiple facets of Jewish influences on and attitudes toward capitalism. Jews were central to the formation of capitalism before the 19th century. They have been central to its defense, and they have been central to movements that have rejected it, communism in particular. They have embraced it, and rejected it, nurtured it and fled from it. It is anything but a simple relationship.

There’s no question that Jews have excelled in free-market societies over the past two centuries. Their places of prominence in the Western world reads like a conspiracy manual composed by zealous anti-Semites: In German on the eve of World War I, Jews composed upward of 40 percent of the corporate elite. In Hungary in the 1920s, Jews accounted for 54 percent of the owners of commercial establishments and 85 percent of bank directors. Jews for the entire 20th century were massively overrepresented proportional to their numbers in academia, medicine and finance and as lawyers, architects and engineers. In the 1980s, according to Forbes’ annual survey of the richest Americans, Jews made up a quarter of the list even though they accounted for only 3 percent of the population. They constituted one-fifth of the faculty of elite universities, and of the 38 Nobel winners for economics between 1970 and 2008, 22 were Jews.

 

book cover

 

Capitalism and the Jews

 

By Jerry Z. Muller

 

Princeton University Press, 272 pages

 

Buy the book

But Muller is intrigued that with such unequivocal success came not triumphalism but ambivalence. Jews in Western society have attracted unwanted attention because of that success, and many Jews responded either by rejecting capitalism or rejecting Judaism and attempting to assimilate. Before the rise of capitalism, Jews were often the moneylenders and the money-changers in Europe, because of the long-standing prohibitions against usury among Christians. They often occupied similar positions in the Muslim world. They also excelled as merchants, both because their outsider status led to strong familial networks that were essential to trade in an era before modern banking and because Western aristocrats disdained making money from trade. As the Western world became more secular and more capitalist in the 19th century, Jews had an edge, but that in turn was often turned against them.

Many of the formative thinkers of the 18th and 19th centuries—ranging from Voltaire to Marx to Max Weber—pointed to the Jews as central to the character of capitalism, and not in a good way. Marx assailed the Jews for having one god: “Money.” Others were more complimentary, especially Friedrich Hayek, who lauded the dynamism of both capitalism and the Jews. He dismissed the traditional animus toward the Jews as the result of ruling elites who were seeing their position in society undermined by modernity resenting the success of the Jews in taking advantage of the Industrial Age. But Hayek’s views were hardly representative, and were overwhelmed in the first half of the 20th century by the waves of anti-Semitism that reached an apex with Nazi Germany.

Muller makes a compelling case that the embrace of communism by some European Jews was a catastrophe. On the one hand, that link supported all sorts of conspiratorial anti-Semitism; on the other, it backfired as Communist regimes in Eastern Europe and Russia turned against the Jews. In Hungary, Jews were at the vanguard of the Communist movement, led by Matyas Rakosi both after World War I and then again after World War II. While most Jews were lukewarm about communism and in fact more focused on Zionism and creating a new Jewish state culminating with Israel in 1948, there were enough who turned to communism to create the perception of a strong bond between Jews and the international Communist movement. Because Jews suffered from a backlash against their success at the practice of capitalism, many Jews sought alternatives that would allow them to live more securely, either in their own state, or by assimilating, or by the pursuit of a post-capitalist system of equality promised in theory by communism. But in Eastern Europe, anti-Semitism proved a deeper force, and all that the embrace of communism ultimately accomplished was to give majority populations one more excuse to blame the Jews for societal ills and punish them accordingly. Jewish Communist leaders were everywhere purged by the early 1950s.

Muller offers no neat or satisfying conclusion, other than to briefly synopsize the work of Ernest Gellner, who wrote insightfully about the dilemma of Jews as a “Diaspora community” that found great success in a manner that in turn produced great peril. The success of the Jews was not much different than other Diaspora groups, such as ethnic Chinese throughout Asia, but unlike the Chinese, the Jews had no homeland. That was seen as a critical weakness, and one reason for the creation and avid defense of Israel. As Israel became a beacon of international Judaism, it also absorbed much of the criticism that Diaspora Jews used to receive—though it is also true that Europe Jews were decimated by the Holocaust and hence no longer as prominent in European society.

But the Jewish question lives on in different ways in the United States, a subject beyond the scope of Muller’s work.  Jewish support of Israel evolved in the 1960s and 1970s into a core aspect of American grand strategy, with evangelical Christians in the United States just as adamant about that policy as any Jewish group and with the U.S. foreign policy establishment turning Israel into a key pillar of American strategy in the Middle East. It’s unlikely that the currents of conflict that these policies have created will have the same consequences for American Jews that the endorsement of either capitalism or communism did in Europe a century ago. That may be the fear, but there’s scant evidence that the present is about to recapitulate that past—the emotional tenor of any discussion about Jews and Israel notwithstanding. Muller’s essays are compelling primarily as a work of history, a look at the links between the formative ideas of the modern world and the role of a small but disproportionately important minority in determining that trajectory. It’s a fascinating history, but its message for our present is modest at best.

Zachary Karabell is president of River Twice Research and a commentator on CNBC. He is the author of several books, including, most recently, “Superfusion: How China and America Became One Economy and Why the World’s Prosperity Depends on It” (2009).


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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, June 28, 2010 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

rosross, June 19 at 12:00 am,

I agree that the United States is a young and immature nation.  It is time that the United States move past the hollow tropes of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all, and that the American people leave all such hollow tropes behind and start adopting objective standards of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all that are based upon “causal education and understanding” fostered as a standard of objective reality that provides the American Populace objective benefit, rather that the illusion that is the American Dream.

It is time to put down the “hierarchical pyramid” of the American Dream and get on with creating an objective American reality that benefits the American Populace, rather than a few capitalists and their “middle class toadies” at the top of the pyramid in a Ponzi Scheme that is sold to the American Populace as the “American Dream”.

It is time for America and the people of America to grow up, both as a people and as a nation, and the first step is to wake up from the American Dream and start to deal with the American Reality.

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By rosross, June 18, 2010 at 8:00 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG,
I’m not sure it helps to be ‘repulsed’ by things. Understanding why something is the way it is rather than judging it in concrete terms takes one further.
A part of America’s problem is quite simply ‘too much too soon.’ The insularity and arrogance of power also played a part in the British time of Empire but the English had spent more than a thousand years becoming who they are and then their rise to power was gradually accomplished over centuries. By the time they found themselves with all that power they were pretty grown up and yet still failed on a number of counts.
American power if you like came quickly and easily… massive natural wealth, the energy you find in all historically recent nations and ‘fortune’. Well, there is always a curse in the gift of course. But the world is changing. The days of empire are over. They don’t work in a mdoern world. America’s failure to occupy Iraq and Afghanistan make that clear. You actually can’t control the world no matter how big your military footprint may be and you cannot make yourself safe in a nuclear armed world. The survival of all of us is dependent upon mature negotiation. It took the Brits a long time .... and it still hasn’t finished… to get over not being ‘top dog’ and it will hit Americans hard as well. But American power is waning and no matter how big you might be compared to say Australia or Canada, the US is small compared to a united Europe and tiny compared to the fast growing economies of the future: India and China. The world is entering upon a time when no-one will lead the world and in fact, no-one ever should. In a grownup world nations work together in the best interests of this sometimes fragile planet.
It is war which has crippled the US and which cripples Israel. There’s a lot to be said for a country being a great place to live rather than ‘great’ in any other sense.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, June 18, 2010 at 6:02 am Link to this comment

rosross, June 17 at 11:49 pm,

For the most part I agree with your post.  I think that the broad agreement between our perspectives is that you have not been raised with the subjective tropes of sophism, propaganda, and rhetoric of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all, and as a result you can see past the indoctrination and inculcation, and I made a choice when I was a toddler from being told about monsters in the dark to check things out for myself and have been doing so ever since.

I have always felt repulsed by having to live with a population of lemmings that seemingly play their part in a dumb show where others pull their strings, and as a result try to encourage “causal understanding” in the hope that society as a whole will cut all individual strings and emerge with independent thought and action.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment

Before this oil finishes spewing out there will
probably be a bunch of Americans gazing at the stars!!

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By rosross, June 17, 2010 at 7:49 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG.
Yes, I agree. I do know that there is one conspiracy theory which holds that the poor quality of education (highest semi-illiteracy rates in the developed world)for the averable American is part of a ‘plot’ to dumb down America. But that doesn’t make sense. I think there are a whole variety of factors which have created this situation of ignorance but that is another debate. It’s odd in a way that the US which sees itself as a ‘leader’ of the modern world, should, in so many ways, be the most old-fashioned in approach. The American ‘system’ is more like the old English class system, except it is about wealth and power, not birth. With the tip of the American iceberg being innovative and modern, beneath it lies an enormous ‘iceberg’ containing a system and set of beliefs which would fit more easily into the 18th or 19th century than today’s world. And within the bulk of the iceberg is the same sort of fear and distrust of government; a belief that one needs to defend one’s self with arms; a tendency to swallow propaganda; a deep religiosity; a belief that poverty is self inflicted; a belief in the superitority of those with wealth; a belief that the nation is an ‘instrument of God and blessed by God and therefore a force for good no matter the evidence to the contrary; an ignorance about the greater world combined with a belief that the greater world is inferior physically and morally and a deep belief in one’s destiny as being the ‘best that exists’ despite evidence to the contrary, which echoes the mindset of the founders of the nation. The more things change the more they stay the same may be French in origin but is more true of the US than anywhere else.
What fascinates me is why. Then again I am an amateur astrologer so no doubt that could explain it. I also believe that energy influences the ‘nature’ of a society or nation and would be curious to find out if such ‘beliefs’ were in any way a part of indigenous culture.
Understanding something is often more important than changing it.

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By ThomasG, June 17, 2010 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment

rosross, June 17 at 10:41 pm,

I agree with your post. Causal education, rather than the prevailing standard of savant education is the solution.

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By rosross, June 17, 2010 at 6:41 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG.
yes it does. I guess the reason why we are discussing the ‘nature’ of the American culture on this forum is because Israel could not be what it is nor do what it does without the US allowing it to do it. Does the resolution lie then, not in changing things in Israel, which I actually think is impossible, but in changing American opinion in regard to Israel? And to do that one needs to understand just why Americans are so uninformed and biased in regard to Israel. Why is it that a nation which produces so much excellence can have so many citizens who are either unable or unwilling to take a reasoned, balanced, common sense view of this conflict? It is one thing for the US government to maintain unquestioned support for its Israeli nuclear arms base but quite another for the majority of the population to do so. The irony is that Americans don’t trust their Government and yet they trust American government propaganda about Israel.

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By ThomasG, June 17, 2010 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

rosross, June 17 at 8:39 pm & rosross, June 17 at 9:21 pm,

From your post, it sounds like we are both pretty much on the same page.

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By rosross, June 17, 2010 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

p.s. I should have said most others with whom I have discussed it, rather than simply most others who have spent time in the US.

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By rosross, June 17, 2010 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG.
I agree with what you say. It is interesting, I think, to study cultures and particularly cultural myths. There has always seemed to me, and most others who spend time in the US that there is an adolescent quality to the culture and a naivete. This could be charming except it is sourced in a deep fear and that tends to manifest in underlying aggression, masked by an almost Asian ‘courtesy.’ I actually find… and this is a general impression… that Americans are a very private people but they present as the opposite.
Perhaps, unlike Canada and Australia they did break away from ‘mum’ too soon. But whatever the reason, there are aspects of American attitudes which are quite 18th century… as if they have been caught in a time warp. The attitude to poverty being one of them.
I have also wondered if the adolescent, about 13, element of the society and culture is why people eat so much; each so much junk food; so many sweets and sweet drinks and why food servings are so big; cups are so big…. to a child everything in the world is big. You don’t find this ‘taste’ or ‘need’ in other countries. It is peculiarly American. Even to being served cookies and milk after dinner on US flights when in the rest of the grownup world you are offered port and coffee.
None of this would be anything more than curiosity except that the ‘kids’ if you like have been set loose in the ‘military shop’ with lots of dangerous’toys’ in their hands.
I realise of course there are many, many grown-up Americans and this is a generalisation but that immature or adolescent quality is part and parcel of American culture and perhaps that is also what makes you angry with your government and fearful of it… as kids rebel against and yet fear and often hate ‘mum and dad.’ It’s an interesting psychological study as to how the adolescent quality in American culture influences how you think, what you think and what you do.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 17, 2010 at 10:12 am Link to this comment

omi saide, how about Scientology? Choose your poison old or new is it any better? Buddhism is better and it isn’t even a religion! Any one can join if that is what you want. Atheists are a mixed group too like Buddhism, we don’t have a god(s) and do things together.

It is important John Ellis but it is off topic concerning Iraq and US occupation. Go to a forum where it belongs. Thank you.

Maybe it is a general passion for them. That and learning are important to them. Shouldn’t it be for everyone? Why isn’t it?

The main problem I see with using the identifier “Jew” is that it is a slippery thing. Sometimes as a “race” other times as a religion but generally both. Semites live all throughout what was Mesopotamia and into the Levant. Palestinians, Israelis and some others are of the same racial groups. Others like from Ethiopia, Spain and Mexico are different.

So many who aren’t religious at all are lumped in with those who are. Imagine if the Buddhists or Christians or Laplanders did that?

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By Inherit The Wind, June 17, 2010 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

A-S:
You have NO idea about me.  To you, ANYONE who doesn’t want Israel destroyed is a “rabid Zionist” and your 2-dimensionality sees nothing more.  I’ve been a HARSH critic of the current government and the recent piracy at sea.

But you also make the absurd assumption that disagreeing with your anti-semitic and factually false views of Jews in America ALSO makes one a rabid Zionist, when your views are no different than the Ku Klux Klan’s. (A home-grown American terrorist organization).

The only VALID question here (and kudos to Ed Harges) is whether or not Israel supporters in Congress and in the lobbies exert an undue influence on US foreign policy.  All this crap about Jews not being subjected to the same pressures as other immigrants is CRAP!

I’m sure I have far, FAR more sympathy and empathy for the Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza who are stuck in the awful position of being pawns than you have for any Jew anywhere, since you think we are all devils and demons.

“There are no friends, there are no enemies. There are only interests.”—My kid’s HS history teacher.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, June 17, 2010 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

rosross, June 16 at 10:52 pm,

Americans are held back because they have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all as a subjective trope.  When Americans start to awaken from the American Dream and demand life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all that, as mass and volume has objective reality, then Americans will change their lot in life and America will after 234 years start to grow up as a nation.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all, as a subjective trope is based upon the American Concept that the Middle Class, as a Class and Culture exists as a singularity without being a class and culture that is in the middle of other classes and cultures; this is where the DREAM comes in.

In the American Dream, as a subjective trope, we can imagine that the 20% minority population of the American Middle Class exists as a singularity but, in the harsh world of objective reality we are forced to acknowledge that there is a 10% minority population of the American Aristocracy on one side of the Middle Class and that there is a 70% MAJORITY Population of the American populace, the 70% Majority Common Population of the United States on the other side of the Middle Class; and that when the class and cultural structure of American Reality is modeled in vertical and horizontal planes, that American Reality is shaped like a pyramid, the same as a Ponzi Scheme.

The American Aristocracy are at the top of the pyramid, the Middle Class are in the middle, and the majority of the pyramid is the American populace.

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By rosross, June 16, 2010 at 6:52 pm Link to this comment

ofersince,

Well, I think the net allows the dissemination of information more easily than ever before. More people, including Americans know the truth of Israel; suspect the truth of 9/11 and are held back from knowing the truth of their country’s bloody rampage across the world for a number of reasons:
1. Americans are desperate to believe they are different, better, greater than anyone else and a force for good in the world. They are fed this pap through religion and education and they have been fed it since the country was founded.
2. Americans are held back because they have the highest levels of semi-illiteracy in the developed world. Literacy helps us to not just question but to find answers.
3. Americans are held back because your information (and I use the word lightly) services are truly appalling. One only has to spend time in the US to see what propaganda and lies are constantly fed to Americans on your news services and how easily Americans believe it in a way that people in other countries would not.
4. Americans are held back because as the strongest power in the world, for the moment, although it has begun to wane, they lack interest in the rest of the world and so remain largely ignorant about the rest of the world. They therefore lack perspective on the nature of their country and its place in the world.
5. Americans are held back because they live with such fear, that despite being the most heavily armed populace, probably in the world, not just the developed world, they are terrified of rocking the boat and express their anger and concern individually more than collectively.
However, Americans are as intelligent and as capable as anyone else and times are changing with forums just like this.
More Americans do know just what their country is and how it is seen by the rest of the world… as the greatest threat to world peace… and more will learn so that they can actually do something about it.

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By ofersince72, June 16, 2010 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

Trouble is rosross nobody here wants to admit that their
government is a demon and will wreck havoc anywhere in
the world they can extract resources.

If they accept this, then they have accept responsibility,
and that is something Americans don’t do easily.

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By ofersince72, June 16, 2010 at 6:21 pm Link to this comment

If the U.S. and Isreal decide to attack Iran, they may
win all the battles, but nobody is going to win the war.
I always thought that it would be before the Augest
deadline that they struck so they would have free airspace
over Iraq, but I have rethought that, it could be later
ever after they turn the airspace over Iraq back to Iraq.

The United States isn’t concerned about violating
Iraqi aeorspace.  They have their puppets in power,
their bases, there not the least concerned about
violating Iraqi aerospace.

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By ofersince72, June 16, 2010 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

I believe you to be right about Iraq also.
If the U.S. thumbs their nose at full withdrawal,which
I expect them to do, aid for Isreal will drop
drastically within a few years after the public accepts
permanent presense. They haven’t stopped construction
on the permanent military bases in Iraq, still building
even though they are supposed to be out of their soon.

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By ofersince72, June 16, 2010 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

rosross….I am glad someone besides the Digger and I
get it. You are exactly right.

While I will concede Jewish interests influence Cap Hill,
for anyone to believe that this is the main reason that
the U.S. keeps Isreal afloat is laughable.

It is always self-interest.

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By rosross, June 16, 2010 at 5:52 pm Link to this comment

There is actually a very real threat to American jews… not Jews elsewhere… because of the US policy toward Israel. Ironically, Israel’s greatest threat, beyond itself, is the US. They actually need those nukes not against Arabs but against the Americans. Israelis like to think they make use of the christian nutters who fund their illegal settlements in Palestine but those nutters are powerful in US government and their ‘end game’ is an Israel which burns so the second coming can come about. Israelis may well find that the nutters and the US military/arms industrial complex, which really runs America, are ‘calling the shots’ and not all the ‘clever Jews.’ There are so many things about US policy which simply do not make sense unless seen in the perspective of Israel, not as a nation the US gives a toss about, nor as a ‘needed’ Jewish homeland, but as yet one more vital nuclear arms base as part of the US plan for its hegemonic military footprint.

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By rosross, June 16, 2010 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment

Surely the main reason why the US acts so often against its own interests and the interests of its people in regard to Israel is the fact that Israel is a US nuclear military base. The US needs this base, for the moment anyway, as part of its hegemonic military footprint but would sacrifice Israel in an instant if its plans for continual military occupation of Iraq can work. They won’t of course but I am sure that is the plan for the 12 or so military bases strung across Iraq. Israelis may like to think they ‘run’ America but there has to be something bigger at work. Nations don’t have friends they have interests.

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Arabian Sinbad's avatar

By Arabian Sinbad, June 16, 2010 at 5:14 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, June 16 at 12:36 pm #

“ThomasG:
You’ll never be able to convince Arabian Sinbad or TD3 that Jews did not uniquely receive favoritism in America throughout history, and up to this day.”
===============================================
You know ITW that in the posts from me that you characteristically have a knee-jerk reaction, I was just being the messenger. I know that it’s characteristic of blinded fanatic Zionists like you to condemn the message that does not fit your crooked mentality, however, I do expect that even the most screwed up fanatics would not attack the messenger.

The point is not about convincing a minor college professor like myself that evil is evil even when it’s camouflaged with “false democracy,”  but about convincing President Harry Truman and lately President Jimmy Carter, whom your type will never be able to convince, but are readilly quick to label with the worn out blackmailing label of ant-Semitic! 

What neither Harry Truman nor Jimmy Carter have said, I am going to say now to give you a good reason to rabidly attack me; my message is, “If there is one group that keeps biting the hands that feed them, it’s Zionists. They did that to the British who gave them the illegal and immoral Balfour Declaration, and they have doing that repeatedly to misguided America whose Congress and White House is an Israeli-occupied territory!

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By ofersince72, June 16, 2010 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

because we are dependent to Isreal a State, we have to.
(until the oil runs out)

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 16, 2010 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment

re:By PatrickHenry, June 16 at 6:55 pm:

The usual story with outsourcing is that the US jobs go to some poor country with
lower living standards, lower wages, lower taxes, fewer public benefits like
national health care, etc.

So how did these jobs get outsourced to wealthy, high-wage, high-tax Israel,
which is a socialist state by US standards, with stronger labor unions and
generous public benefits, including a national single-payer health care system?

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By PatrickHenry, June 16, 2010 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, I want to know why U.S. domestic phone billing is outsourced to Israel.

http://counterpunch.org/ketcham09272008.html

Outsourcing has been the death of this country and slowly continues.  Free trade and fair trade are 2 different concepts.

Environmental, workplace safety and hiring standards have made U.S. products far more expensive than those not requiring the same scrutiny.  Outsourcing allowed monied interests a way to bypass domestic levies on workers.

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 16, 2010 at 9:34 am Link to this comment

re: By Inherit The Wind, June 16 at 12:36 pm:

I never said that ethnic favoritism explains all or even most
of the discrepancy.

It may in fact explain none of the discrepancy. But
the discrepancy is still a problem, because of Israel.

The disproportionate power of Jews in America has mostly had benign results,
with the exception of US foreign policy. I certainly would not prefer to living in
a society with an Aryan supremacist elite!

No; it’s only the extreme and destructive skewing of US foreign policy in favor
of Israel that really bothers me about this state of affairs.

Conservative Republican Christians are hawkish on Israel, yes, but they are
hawkish on everything, so they don’t really count. If the right wing Republicans
wanted to invade Grenada again, they’d get plenty of opposition from
Democrats.

It’s only where Israel is concerned that there are no brakes. The right wing
hawks are joined by the liberal-on-everything-but-Israel Democrats, and we
get, for example, a very real possibility of war against Iran in the near future.

This is what is so destructive, and in turn, this results from the disproportionate
political power of the ethnic group which passionately identifies with Israel.

That is where this disproportionate power is a problem, even if that
disproportionate power is due entirely to merit
.

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By truedigger3, June 16, 2010 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, June 16 at 12:36 pm #


ThomasG:
You’ll never be able to convince Arabian Sinbad or TD3 that Jews did not uniquely receive favoritism in America throughout history, and up to this day. 
____________________________________________________


ITW,

DID YOU READ MY POST OF:
By truedigger3, June 16 at 10:07 am #

You insist on seeing what you are looking for instead of what is actually there.
Please read the post!!!!?????

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By Inherit The Wind, June 16, 2010 at 8:36 am Link to this comment

ThomasG:
You’ll never be able to convince Arabian Sinbad or TD3 that Jews did not uniquely receive favoritism in America throughout history, and up to this day. 

It is a fundamental premise of their belief structure, and no contradicting fact can convince them.

Others ADMIRE Jews for busting their asses so hard to make it in America in so many ways.  The whiners and complainers cannot IMAGINE it’s actually due to hard work and solid discipline.

Yet it’s repeating itself with the advances of the kids of Chinese, Indian and other East Asian areas just like it was the Jewish kids in the 20th Century.

Yet the bigots persist that there must be favoritism or “magic” surrounding the Jews—and nobody else.

Then they scream and weep and holler when called bigots.

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By ThomasG, June 16, 2010 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Arabian Sinbad, June 16 at 11:16 am,

There are many types of minorities—ethnic, economic, and political:  Are the Jewish ethnic minorities any better or worse than the Christian laissez-nous-faire economic and political minority of Privatized Capitalism in the United States?

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By Arabian Sinbad, June 16, 2010 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

To add my four cents worth of contribution to the ongoing discussion about minority versus majority, I maintain that the true test of a real democracy is how the minorities are treated within that democracy. Taking that criterion into consideration, I believe that most bragged about democracies of the world have really failed the test of real democracy.

However, there is one tiny minority that receives political, economic and legal favoritism within the American system, and I bet everyone knows that it’s the Jewish minority.

It perplexes me to think about how the Jews have achieved this favoritism and domination to the point that nowadays and of late the Congress is practically an Israeli-occupied territory. This is despite the fact that only sixty years ago, the Jews were portrayed in a very negative light. Listen to what President Harry Truman wrote about this group in his Diary on July 21, 1947:

” Had ten minutes conversation with Henry Morgenthau about Jewish ship in Palistine [sic]. Told him I would talk to Gen[eral] Marshall about it.

He’d no business, whatever to call me. The Jews have no sense of proportion nor do they have any judgement on world affairs.

Henry brought a thousand Jews to New York on a supposedly temporary basis and they stayed. When the country went backward-and Republican in the election of 1946, this incident loomed large on the D[isplaced] P[ersons] program.

The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I’ve found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.

Look at the Congress[ional] attitude on D[isplaced] P[ersons]-and they all come from D[isplaced] P[erson]s.”

Yet, despite all this negativism at the highest levels, the United States was among the first countries to recognize the illegitimate birth of Israel!!!

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By Ed Harges, June 16, 2010 at 6:34 am Link to this comment

re:By PatrickHenry, June 16 at 7:52 am:

PatrickHenry writes: ”...come to think of it many Chinese restaurants
hire predominately Chinese workers, though I have seen a few latinos
in them.

It is obvious that if:

(a) minority group A maintains habits of favoritism toward its own,

(b) and habitually discriminates against the resented majority group B, even
after achieving a demographically proportionate presence in society’s elite,

(c) while the majority group B is simultaneously reforming itself in order to
eliminate this kind of favoritism towards its own members,

(d) that the proportion in society’s elite of members of the minority group A will
continue to increase beyond its proportion in the general population.

Now you consider that—not without justification—group A has a cultural
habit of believing itself constantly embattled and in danger, an ancient habit of
holding the rest of society in hostile suspicion, so much so that suffering at the
hands of the majority “Other” group is central to its identity. Power reserves of
wealth and influence must be relentlessly accumulated, in preparation for the
day when the seemingly innocuous majority group should reveal once again its
true malevolence.

It’s not surprising that under such circumstances, minority group A would
maintain an immigrant group’s habit of ethnic favoritism toward its own, even
long after achieving demographic par in the elite. And of course, eventually this
discrimination may become rather noticeable and resented by those against
whom it is directed.

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By ThomasG, June 16, 2010 at 6:34 am Link to this comment

rosross, June 16 at 12:40 am,

What is not to understand?

The fault lies within the American Populace, the 70% majority population of the United States, that the American Populace freely accept and will fight and die for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all as a subjective trope, and that the American Populace does not have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all as an objective reality, only the American Aristocracy and the Professional Middle Class has objective life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all.

The American Populace are living in a dream world, the American Dream, and expecting objective benefit; it is time to wake up— it is not going to happen.  Objective benefit does not exist in a dream world.

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By truedigger3, June 16, 2010 at 6:07 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, June 16 at 8:16 am #


ITW wrote:

“I’ve worked with tech companies that were American, but trying to find someone who spoke passable English was tough.

Then there’s the equivalent:

An Indian company bought a service company in the pharma industry where some former colleagues worked.  Ran it for a while to get to know the business, then “moved” the bulk of the operation to India, throwing virtually all the Americans and resident aliens out of work.  Instead they hired Indians in India to do that same work.

How is that different?  How is it different that ALL the telephone support services are now in Asia, so the voice YOU hear when you call Belkin or HP or many other companies is an Indian, reading from a script? “
___________________________________________________


ITW,

Initially you are right. First and second generation immigrants congregated together and felt comfortable living and working with their ilks. So, that phenomenon was not exclusively Jewish.
We had Irish, Italian, Jewish, WASPS , ete ... neighbourhoods.
But then you start comparing apples to cucumbers.
When bunch of Indians bought a US company, and after a while moved the operation to India, they didn’t do that because they loved Indians but because it is much cheaper to hire Indians employees in India and work almost free from labor and environmental laws which are hardly enforced there due to endemic corruption.
Neither the Indians owns or have any influence in running Belkin or HP.
These two companies with many other computer and Electronics companies and all kind of companies, big and small, including IBM, Dell, Apple, MicroSoft ..etc have moved many of their call centers and software operations to India, not because they adore Indians but because it is much cheaper to hire Indian employees, engineers and programmer there, while many of US engineers and programmers hit the unemployment lines.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 16, 2010 at 4:16 am Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, June 16 at 7:52 am #

Inherit, come to think of it many chinese restaurants hire predominately chinese workers though I have seen a few latinos in them.
****************************************

I’ve worked with tech companies that were American, but trying to find someone who spoke passable English was tough.

Then there’s the equivalent:

An Indian company bought a service company in the pharma industry where some former colleagues worked.  Ran it for a while to get to know the business, then “moved” the bulk of the operation to India, throwing virtually all the Americans and resident aliens out of work.  Instead they hired Indians in India to do that same work.

How is that different?  How is it different that ALL the telephone support services are now in Asia, so the voice YOU hear when you call Belkin or HP or many other companies is an Indian, reading from a script?

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By PatrickHenry, June 16, 2010 at 3:52 am Link to this comment

Inherit, come to think of it many chinese restaurants hire predominately chinese workers though I have seen a few latinos in them.

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By rosross, June 15, 2010 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG,

I am not sure I understand the points you are trying to make.

I was simply trying to say in the discussion with Marshall that the US has failed its citizens in the main. With all of the wealth, power and gifts at its disposal the US has more negative firsts than any other developed nation and its average citizens have the poorest quality of life when compared to the best of the developed world. If any nation should have been able to provide its citizens with the best quality of life it is the US.

Understanding what it is about the American system which creates this failure is the only way that the average American is going to attain the same quality of life as the average citizens in other developed nations.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 15, 2010 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, June 15 at 7:33 pm #

Inherit, I have yet to see an Indian or Chinese company of which you speak of.
***************************

Really? You must not be looking very hard.

As for TD3, I have NO idea what the hell you mean by “Long time ago”.  Please don’t invent “history”.  It gets tiresome to have to constantly correct fictional history.

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By PatrickHenry, June 15, 2010 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, I have yet to see an Indian or Chinese company of which you speak of.

“As for Jews, many, MANY Jews were involved in the labor movement and the Civil Rights movement, seeking to BROADEN the path, not narrow it.”

I tend to think some of the many of people involved in those movements happened to be Jewish as well of those many other faiths, ethnic groups and religions who were engaged in these struggles.

Good people who made a difference.

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By truedigger3, June 15, 2010 at 3:15 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, June 15 at 6:09 pm #


TD3:
What’s “a long time ago” to you? Last week?  So now the ‘60s are so long ago that they just don’t count anymore?  The ‘70’s too?  How about the ‘80’s? The ‘90’s? Anything before Jan 1, 2010 is “a long time ago”?

You are so hung up in your stereotypes you can’t even understand the topic of the thread.
—————————————————————————

ITW,

You know exactly what I meant by long time ago. I specified it in my post. So please stop playing dumb.
I am sure you know a good deal of US history in the twentieth century.
What stereoptypes I am hung up about?. You doing it again, trying to distract from the point at hand by throwing accusations.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 15, 2010 at 2:09 pm Link to this comment

TD3:
What’s “a long time ago” to you? Last week?  So now the ‘60s are so long ago that they just don’t count anymore?  The ‘70’s too?  How about the ‘80’s? The ‘90’s? Anything before Jan 1, 2010 is “a long time ago”?

You are so hung up in your stereotypes you can’t even understand the topic of the thread.

EH: Nice metaphor but can you give a concrete example of it working?  I think that Hispanics have put up a VERY different paradigm, using their numbers and their combined influence to start FORCING their way (legally, that is) into the halls of power.  Sure there are many, many poor Hispanics, but the numbers of middle class are rising surprisingly fast.

Of course, the BEST solution is to hire the best person for the job IN THE LONG TERM (which may mean today’s “best” isn’t next year’s “best”).

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By truedigger3, June 15, 2010 at 1:41 pm Link to this comment

ITW wrote:
“As for Jews, many, MANY Jews were involved in the labor movement and the Civil Rights movement, seeking to BROADEN the path, not narrow it.”
_____________________________________________________

ITW,

That was a long time ago, when the Jews were mostly workers or small stores owners and were powerless minority against the so powerful and dominant WASPS.
But that is no more. The Jews have “crossed over” and are now part of the ruling elite and doing its bidding.
I am not sure, if this is a real participation in real power or this is just a modern day version of the Europian “Court Jews”, and the Jews could be used again as scape goats. Time will tell!.

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By Ed Harges, June 15, 2010 at 11:43 am Link to this comment

to Inherit the Wind:

I mistyped in my previous post. I wrote:

Say you are a green person, in a country with purple minority.

I meant:

Say you are a green person, in a country with purple majority.

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By Ed Harges, June 15, 2010 at 11:40 am Link to this comment

re:By Inherit The Wind, June 15 at 3:07 pm:

“As for Jews, many, MANY Jews were involved in the labor movement and the
Civil Rights movement, seeking to BROADEN the path, not narrow it.”

There’s no contradiction here.

Say you live in a society in which you resent the power of a perceived privileged
majority, and you seek to dilute the power of that dominant group. You can
accomplish that end by seeking greater advantage not only for your own group,
but also for other groups who are outside the dominant group.

Say you are a green person, in a country with purple minority. You run a
business, and you have three job openings. There’s a green applicant, four
purple applicants, and two applicants who are ethnically of the underprivileged
orange minority. You hire the green applicant, giving advantage to your own
group, but what about the remaining two jobs?

From the point of view of diluting the power of the purple majority, you’d be
smart to hire the two orange applicants—and as bonus, you’d be praised for
selflessly helping to advance the interests of the disadvantaged orange
minority.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 15, 2010 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

EH, Both you and PH are wrong about the levels of ethnic nepotism.  PH says the Chinese and Indian companies that hire their own are in China and India. Some are, but many are here in the USA.  I’ve had to deal with custom software vendors, where every emp from the CEO on down lived and worked in the USA and NONE of them spoke English well.  Call it the “Restaurant Syndrome” for those are usually the first businesses and usually hire their own.

As for Jews, many, MANY Jews were involved in the labor movement and the Civil Rights movement, seeking to BROADEN the path, not narrow it.

J-E is getting mad because people are sick of the bull-hockey he’s constantly promoting.

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By MarthaA, June 15, 2010 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

The issue isn’t the Jews, the issue is the system of laissez-nous-faire private capitalism that needs to be changed from private to social capitalism for all, which will be better for all, as the wealthy already use socialism and have for years in the United States, which makes it difficult for the American populace, as the populace is restricted to capitalism.

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By Ed Harges, June 15, 2010 at 7:33 am Link to this comment

Libertarians and other laissez-faire capitalists claim to be
opposed to government tyranny; but laissez-faire capitalism
leads inevitably to government tyranny.

Why?

Because under laissez-faire capitalism, the very rich get to do whatever they want
with their money.

And the first thing they will do is buy the government—turning it into an
instrument of rule for themselves.

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By ThomasG, June 15, 2010 at 7:08 am Link to this comment

rosross, June 15 at 8:12 am, kalpal, June 15 at 7:37 am, Marshall, June 15 at 7:21 am,

Here in the United States we have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all as tropes; so we all know that it is patriotic to accept socialism for the rich and laissez-nous-faire capitalism for the populace; it is alright for the rich to be on the dole of socialism, right?—it is only a moral hazard for those who do not receive capital from commercial activity to be on the dole of socialism—the American populace—right?

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By rosross, June 15, 2010 at 4:12 am Link to this comment

Marshall: I couldn’t help but ponder some more, this comment of yours:

You said: ’ I believe it ultimately proves unworkable and certainly is in the US.’

What you call unworkable has been working (and increasing gradually and justly) in Australia for more than 200 years; in the United Kingdom for 300 years and in European countries, to varying degrees, for the same sorts of periods.

Not only does social responsibility ‘work’ it works well enough to stablise political systems while gauranteeing a good quality of life for ALL citizens.

It is the mark of a civilized society to take responsibility for the greater good and the communal good. You consider such responsibility to be ‘unworkable’ for the US so that suggests Americans are prepared to sacrifice the common good; the rights of human beings; basic decency and a whole raft of civilized principles for .... what? Money, power, the few who would have less to make it workable?

So much for all the fine words in your constitution. Not worth the paper on which they are written.

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By rosross, June 15, 2010 at 3:53 am Link to this comment

Marshall, to continue.

You said: It’s all about what role people want government to play in their lives.

It should be about what is best for the society as a whole. Americans have never really gotten over breaking away from ‘mum’ and live with this fear that anyone who governs you can’t be trusted. There’s an adolescent quality to it all. Ironic that your political system means you elect a king every four years.

You said:  And many believe that, in addition to being economically unsustainable in the long run, increased use of social welfare encourages dependency.

Welfare to excess can encourage dependency but too little welfare creates terrible poverty, social dysfunction and a divided society. And is an abuse of human rights.

You said: Smaller countries with homogeneous populations and fewer international obligations can sustain greater socialization for a time, but I believe it ultimately proves unworkable and certainly is in the US.

But the American attitude to all of this hasn’t changed for more than 300 years. When you were small enough you didn’t do it and now you say you are too big. How can the wealthiest, most powerful, and by the count of many Americans, the cleverest of countries not solve this? Then again, hurricanes and oil leaks are indicative of the limits of efficiency so perhaps along with simply not caring about ordinary people you simply cannot do it.

Look, I don’t care at the end of the day and it is your country and there is a lot of valuable innovation which comes out of the US, just as it does in every other country. I just think that it is sad that the US should offer the average citizen such a poor quality of life. If more than 20percent of Americans had passports they would know what they are missing. Then again, most of them are probably too poor to travel.

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By rosross, June 15, 2010 at 3:45 am Link to this comment

Marshall:
You said:.  Are you aware that there is quite a bit of social welfare in this country, though much of that moved from federal to state level in ‘96?

Yes. My point remains that the US as the wealthiest of the developed nations should not have so many ‘firsts’ representing a poor quality of life for the average citizen.

Of course there are negatives to the ‘dole.’ but the evidence so far is that there are worse negatives in your system.

You said: there is no global “quality of life” standard.

Well, actually there is. And it is sourced in civilized society and the ability of a nation to pay for it.The US refuses to pay for it.

You said: I’d argue for example that the poor in the US live better than the middle and even upper classes in many other countries

Do you mean many other developed countries? If you do you are wrong. And if you don’t then you can’t compare first world with third world. And in fact the worst poverty in the US equals poverty I have seen in India and Africa. And that is to America’s shame.

You said:  You state that you don’t support illegal immigration yet much of your post defends them, their “rights”, and the fiction of their net benefit to the economy.

I am not talking about the rights of illegals; I am talking about the rights of American citizens. Illegal workers should either be accepted as citizens or sent home. There’s a different criteria for refugees.

You admitted that lower wages aid economic development; ergo, that is exploitation.

You said: Many of these countries are just now hitting the brick wall of economic reality as the gravy train comes to an end, Greece being the obvious example as it’s downgraded to junk status.

No they are not. Greece has always been a basket case. Australia with its social responsibility has still managed to outperform all other developed nations in the meltdown. The Scandinavian countries are not hitting the wall and neither are Germany, France or some others.

You said:  The global economic crisis is just ramping up to full force in Europe, which may well drag the US back down again.

The global economic crisis came out of America and your lack of regulation and ‘greed is good’ financial approach. It hit the US harder than anyone because of this and because some of the worst of the financial excesses were an egregious exploitation of the poor in terms of the morgage market. Money loaned to people who could never pay. And the interest on that loan sold on to others…. ad infinitum.

You said: Black culture of poverty can be traced in part to African origins.

What, in the same way that all negatives in Australia can be traced to our convict ubringing? Poverty in black culture comes out of the applalling racism with which they lived and with which they still live to some degree. How do you explain white poverty? There is plenty of that in some states.

You said: It’s all about what role people want government to play in their lives.  The US is a social democracy with its roots in a belief in smaller government and free market principles, though both parties have strayed from this.

I understand all that, but it doesn’t work. Otherwise you would not have so many negative firsts.

You said:  With increased socialization comes larger government and higher taxes - usually in a self-perpetuating fashion.

That’s not what you see in other developed nations who employ social responsibility. That’s just what Americans believe. It has nothing to do with reality.

You said: Americans by and large don’t want the US to look like heavily socialized European countries.  It’s part of our national identity.

And I think therein lies an important truth. Most European countries are not heavily socialized and neither are Canada or Australia. They just have some social qualities for the benefit of their people. Americans want so much to ‘not be European’ they cut off their noses to spite their face.

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By kalpal, June 15, 2010 at 3:37 am Link to this comment

Marshall writes: “I’d argue for example that the poor in the US live better than the middle and even upper classes in many other countries, but are still poor by US standards.”

That is so ignorant and untrue that it defies logic but is distinctly American in form. Americans like to believe much but defy and deny obtaining knowledge.

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By Marshall, June 15, 2010 at 3:21 am Link to this comment

“Surely the point is not how generous Americans are but to whom they choose to be generous.”

My point is that Americans give in copious amounts (both privately and through corporations) to charities, which in turn give to the poor.  It’s voluntary welfare as opposed to state mandated, though that exists as well.  Are you aware that there is quite a bit of social welfare in this country, though much of that moved from federal to state level in ‘96?

“And what you call welfare in the US, other nations call ‘rights’ and the responsibility of a wealthy developed nation.”

I agree - health care being an obvious example.  Though I don’t speak for Americans in general (many diverse views I’d point out), my experience with “the dole” as its called in many socialized countries is that it often perpetuates itself.  For example, unemployment checks often substitute for job seeking (I’ve seen this in my own behavior as well as others).

“the richest of the developed nations gives its average citizens the poorest quality of life. I don’t see how you can’t question that.”

Because it’s a subjective statement since there is no global “quality of life” standard.  I’d argue for example that the poor in the US live better than the middle and even upper classes in many other countries, but are still poor by US standards.

“The illegals and poorly paid ‘fund’ the ability to make money in the US which then funds developments.”

On the contrary, many studies show illegals are a net drain, not a net gain to the economy.  Illegals provide one thing: cheap labor.  But their costs in medical care, unpaid income taxes, exported earnings, crime, displacement of citizen workers, and numerous other social programs they consume exceeds the benefits of their labor savings.  You state that you don’t support illegal immigration yet much of your post defends them, their “rights”, and the fiction of their net benefit to the economy.

“And you admit that exploitation funds low tax rates in the US?”

Don’t know where you think I said that.

“Those nations you dismiss as ‘nanny states’ manage to function very efficiently in the main… not allof them”

Many of these countries are just now hitting the brick wall of economic reality as the gravy train comes to an end, Greece being the obvious example as it’s downgraded to junk status.  The global economic crisis is just ramping up to full force in Europe, which may well drag the US back down again.

“The blacks are not from third world countries they are from the US.”

Black culture of poverty can be traced in part to African origins.

“even with such things so many still have a paranoia about moderate welfare support.”

It’s all about what role people want government to play in their lives.  The US is a social democracy with its roots in a belief in smaller government and free market principles, though both parties have strayed from this.  With increased socialization comes larger government and higher taxes - usually in a self-perpetuating fashion.  Americans by and large don’t want the US to look like heavily socialized European countries.  It’s part of our national identity.  And many believe that, in addition to being economically unsustainable in the long run, increased use of social welfare encourages dependency.  This is why the US passed welfare reform (under a democratic president no less) in 1996 and saw poverty rates decline in the years following.  Smaller countries with homogeneous populations and fewer international obligations can sustain greater socialization for a time, but I believe it ultimately proves unworkable and certainly is in the US.

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By rosross, June 15, 2010 at 1:21 am Link to this comment

Marshall,

Surely the point is not how generous Americans are but to whom they choose to be generous. What you call nanny states gives citizens in other countries greater opportunities and a decent quality of life, which is why your poverty levels are so much higher on a percentage basis. Your self-reliant approach doesn’t work. The welfare safety net approach in other nations does.

And what you call welfare in the US, other nations call ‘rights’ and the responsibility of a wealthy developed nation.

Whatever the reasons or excuses it doesn’t get away from the fact that the richest of the developed nations gives its average citizens the poorest quality of life. I don’t see how you can’t question that.

I meant it holds the US back from providing on average the best quality of life, commensurate with its wealth, in the developed world.

America has some excellent academic institutions as do many other countries. The US has the wealth to ‘buy the best’. However, you still have the highest levels of semi-illiteracy in the developed world which jars somewhat with universities for the rich and talented.

Are you sure about home ownership? Given how many empty homes in empty suburbs there are now.

The illegals and poorly paid ‘fund’ the ability to make money in the US which then funds developments.
If you paid proper wages you would have less money to fund developments but you would have a fairer and more humane system.

You said: But more importantly, why exactly is it our obligation support illegal workers as you
seem to believe?

It isn’t and I don’t. But the US fails to end the exploitation of illegals either because it is incompetent or it does not want to. Either way, any economy is going to do better if it can exploit cheap labour.

So for all American excellence and skill you are incapable of clamping down on illegal labour in the way that other nations manage to do?

You said:I think you’re arguing opposing points here: that the US doing well, and that it’s
not.

Doing well in making money. Doing poorly in terms of offering all Americans a decent way of life.

And you admit that exploitation funds low tax rates in the US? That hardly seems civilized or democratic. Those nations you dismiss as ‘nanny states’ manage to function very efficiently in the main… not allof them ... but most and still do the right thing by their citizens.

You said: The answer is the former, which is why entrepreneurism is higher here than
anywhere. 

There’s no evidence for that. And even if there were you are still riding on the backs of the poorly paid.

You said: Correct - the primary asian feeder countries are not third world.

They would not be there if they did not need to be. Like Australia, the US has taken a lot of people from third world Asian countries. Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Burma are all third world.

You said: Mainly the last two, and those are from third world countries.  You’re making
my point here.

The blacks are not from third world countries they are from the US. They may live in third world communities… and having lived in India I can say there is third world poverty in the US ... and your whites… are also from the US. Which leaves Hispanics. Hardly making your point.

And my point about migration, legal or illegal, is that all developed nations are a focus and a target… the US is only one of them, not the one. And developed nations have always been a focus for refugees and immigrants… read about any time in history whether the ‘developed world’ was Roman, Arab, English or First as we call it today.

At the end of the day it is only the US which will suffer from its inability to bring the best quality of modern life to its average citizens.

You are clearly an intelligent, aware person and I guess this is what I find so odd about the US, that even with such things so many still have a paranoia about moderate welfare support.

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By Marshall, June 15, 2010 at 12:46 am Link to this comment

By rosross, June 14 at 10:51 pm #

“so many Americans believe poverty is self inflicted”

America has the highest rate of domestic charitable giving (not to mention
foreign aid) of any country.  What many American’s don’t support is a nanny
state solution to poverty, instead preferring a robust economy/jobs as a better
and more self-reliant approach.  We tried the welfare route and gave that up in
1996.

“Perhaps it holds the country back”

Back from what?  US economic success is unrivaled, and military spending is not
the engine.  Our secondary education institutions attract students from around
the world.  The US still has the highest home ownership rate and it’s difficult to
argue that our success in numerous industries from entertainment to
technology to agriculture to medicine to aircraft to space exploration was
earned on the backs of third world immigrants or the result of military control.

“millions of illegals working for $1 a day; a basic wage which is the lowest in
the developed world”

None of the illegals i’ve encountered is earning $1 a day; if this were indeed
their wage I think they’d be in their own country earning more.  But more
importantly, why exactly is it our obligation support illegal workers as you
seem to believe?  What the US needs is immigration reform which would
discourage companies from hiring illegals and shore up the borders.  This
would in turn increase our ability to accept more skilled, legal immigrants.

“You should be doing well. You have a labour base which is exploited.”

I think you’re arguing opposing points here: that the US doing well, and that it’s
not.  Either way, low-wage unskilled labor is not the engine of our economy.

“would your taxes be so low if Americans had the same levels of education,
healthcare and social welfare facilities which you find in other nations?”

Clearly not.  Nanny states by nature demand heavy taxation, one of the very
issues that drove our founding fathers to form this nation to begin with.  And
most of the more dysfunctional institutions in the US have been the publicly
funded ones like public education and welfare; hardly a good argument for
their expansion.  Socialized systems are effectively monopolies with no
accountability and a coerced income base.

“Is it so hard to start a business in other developed nations or do we just have
better regulation to protect our workers”

The answer is the former, which is why entrepreneurism is higher here than
anywhere.  The real engine of our economy is small/medium sized businesses;
hardly the low wage sweatshop firetrap relics from which unionization sprang. 
And it’s no coincidence that the most successful businesses in the US are the
non-union shops, and that their work forces are not clamoring for
unionization.

And oil is cheap in the US not because of military control (we buy it like
everyone else), but because it’s not heavily taxed.

“You said: Literacy rates are tied mainly to poor minorities that have deluged
the country from third world countries This is not true. Your Asian immigrants
are your best performers.”

Correct - the primary asian feeder countries are not third world.

“Your poor have often been poor for generations and they include white, black
and hispanic.”

Mainly the last two, and those are from third world countries.  You’re making
my point here.

“Immigrants ...want to go to Australia, Canada. the UK or NZ far more than they
want to go to the US.”

I only wish you were right.  We’d have a much smaller immigration problem
instead of 12 million illegals to contend with.

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By rosross, June 14, 2010 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

Marshall,

You are right, generalisations are problematic and all that I can say is mine are based in very long periods spent in the US and travelling through a great deal of it.

It was a German professor teaching in the US who said Americans are unique in the developed world as “the only people who both hate and fear” their government and it struck a chord with me because my impression was that it was true in a way it was not of other places like Canada, UK, Europe and Australia where I had lived.

As to my high appraisal of Oz well I actually think the Scandinavian countries also do extremely well in terms of quality of life and so does Germany but Oz has the sun. It is easier to compare Australia to English speaking countries like the US, Canada and the UK because one has more access to information.

I would make the point however that I am talking about the average. And that is one of the problems with the US; you have such high levels of poor and working poor that your ‘average’ is so much lower than other developed nations.

And trust me, I don’t take these forums as reflective of the US. I read widely about the US; have read its history; spent months living in Mass. where my sister lived for 14 years; long periods in New York and New York State where my son has been for ten years; have driven across a lot of the US, north/south and east/west and drawn my impressions from there.

What shocked me more than some of the comments found here was the number of intellligent, educated, christian, decent, good people in Massachusetts, who, like so many Americans believe poverty is self inflicted and who have little or no compassion or care for the poor. Now, that is a belief much more common in the US than anywhere else and a very 18th and 19th century view. Perhaps it holds the country back.

Of course the US has positives but would it have them if it did not have a ‘slave labour component’ millions of illegals working for $1 a day; a basic wage which is the lowest in the developed world and a system which impedes the improvement of conditions for workers because it has stamped down union activity more so than other developed nations?

You should be doing well. You have a labour base which is exploited.

And would your taxes be so low if Americans had the same levels of education, healthcare and social welfare facilities which you find in other nations? Of course not. America’s positives ride on the back of its underpaid labour force.

Is it so hard to start a business in other developed nations or do we just have better regulation to protect our workers?

And would the US have the largest economy in the world if it were not founded on an arms/military complex and able to provide subsidised fuel because it works hard to control oil supplies?

You said: Literacy rates are tied mainly to poor minorities that have deluged the country from third world countries

This is not true. Your Asian immigrants are your best performers. Your poor have often been poor for generations and they include white, black and hispanic.

You said: a problem most other countries don’t have because they aren’t the global magnet the US is.

Also not true. All other developed nations are exactly the same magnet as the US and all have refugee boats arriving on their borders and all take large numbers of immigrants. Particularly Canada, Australia and NZ which would have immigrant percentages similar to the US.

Because Americans know so little about the rest of the world they think that everyone wants to go to America. They don’t. Immigrants want to escape war, poverty, repression and often they want to go to Australia, Canada. the UK or NZ far more than they want to go to the US. You get a lot of people from South America which makes sense and the Poms get a lot from Europe.

Don’t get me wrong. There are some great positives in the US… but few for your average citizens.

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By Marshall, June 14, 2010 at 4:40 pm Link to this comment

By rosross, June 12 at 7:00 am #

Ross - while I appreciate that you have a different perspective from outside the US, I would differ from you on a number of important points:

Highly subjective generalizations about the US population as “the only people who both hate and fear” their government are meaningless.

I’ve traveled through Europe, Canada, Central and South America and Japan and I beg to differ with your quality of life assessments.  I’m usually glad to return to the US myself, and given the number of happy European ex-patriots I know here in LA, I’m not the only one.  I’ve never met an Aussie who didn’t double as an ambassador of tourism too, so your high appraisal of your own country isn’t surprising.  Of course if you hang out on these liberal websites, you’ll find a sympathetic collective of american mal-contents to reinforce your low opinion of the US.

Statistically, the US has many positives including high worker productivity, low debt per GDP, high GDP per capita, low taxes, and the largest economy in the world.  It’s also far easier to start a business in the US than just about anywhere.  We’re not without problems of course.  But Healthcare delivery isn’t one of them - it’s the availability/cost that’s the problem.  Literacy rates are tied mainly to poor minorities that have deluged the country from third world countries - a problem most other countries don’t have because they aren’t the global magnet the US is.  Also a big part of the wealth disparity problem.

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By batesdon1, June 14, 2010 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

When you consider what capitalism means to political and social freedom, we ought to have an annual parade to recognize everyone, regardless of their ethnic or religious background, for their contributions to its development and expansion.  There are reasons for the Jewish ascendency in business and money; e.g., it was a way to survive against all the forces in the world that wanted to destroy Jews, primarily for religious reasons. Not being able to own property in many countries or having it taken away from them in others virtually on a whim, the Jews learned that money could be another form of property they could take with them from nation to nation as they escaped from pograms and “racial” discrimination.  Ditto for their academic achievements. They discovered that education was another property that they could take with them wherever they went.  They learned to live with their brains, not brawn.  Yes, the Jews have been influential in capitalism, but so have the Irish who have had a disproportionate involvement in Wall Street and banking for generations.  Only difference is that there are no books that talk about this history.  Singling out the Jews is OK where true but we ought to balance the picture with books on other ethnic groups that had and have unusual influence on capitalism’s enormous power, both good and bad, in the world.

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By kalpal, June 14, 2010 at 6:54 am Link to this comment

John Ellis, I never said you were truant. I said that your education ended at the 6th grade and you never proceeded beyond that point. You may well have stuck around in a school for many years beyond that point but you made no progress other than picking up the canard that Europeans are endowed with brains more so than anyone else.

Europeans were so smart that every place on this planet they came and stayed they polluted and harmed the locals. Now there is a true sign of being brainy. To wreak havoc everywhere you ever go demonstrates absolute intelligence.

Why do you find it so hard to understand what I am trying to explain to you? Oh well, you can join Ed Harges and some others in the hate the Jews crowd and mark time till it comes time to hate someone else. Have a wonderful life and try to think before you start typing.

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By Ed Harges, June 13, 2010 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment

re:By Inherit The Wind, June 13 at 4:08 pm:

Inherit the wind: please calm down about Jay Ee (I’m spelling it funny cause I don’t
want to wake the baby, so to speak). I think this is a very marginal, um,
phenomenon. Look, I used to live in a part of the country where there was not
infrequently some Jay Ee stationed on a corner here or there, and the locals just
walked right through the background noise, vaguely noting the timbre as one
might of a chittering squirrel. If you thought about it at all, you might think it was
nice he was getting some fresh air, instead having to sit on a fetid cot in some
alleged asylum.

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By Arabian Sinbad, June 13, 2010 at 6:30 pm Link to this comment

By Ed Harges, June 13 at 5:50 pm #

“Furthermore, since Jews successfully (as of the mid-20th century) lobbied to have themselves removed as a demographic category for official, legal
purposes (like those check-boxes on census forms or job apps for “White, Hispanic, Black, Native American, male, female, etc.) , there’s not even any way to come up with hard, legally actionable numbers as to how much of this favoritism may be really going on. Now we’re supposed to believe that their
extremely high over-representation in America’s elite is entirely due to superior merit.”
=========================================
Thank you Ed Harges for bringing attention to the fact the the Jews managed to remove themselves as a separate race in official census forms. In fact, this has been an issue that perplexed me since I arrived in America in 1978. When I was given such forms to fill in the past, I would either leave them blank or add “Semitic-Arab.”

What perplexed me all these years is the absence of “Semitic” from these census categories. Yet when someone says something against Israel, they are quickly labeled as “Anti-Semitic,” which the Zionists use as a blackmailing strategy against their opponents.

So at one point Jews, or rather their racist leaders, didn’t want to associate themselves with the Semitic race, yet they use “Anti-Semitic” as a sharp sword against those who criticize Israel and its Zionist racists!

What an irony that they selectively want not to be labeled “Semitic” when it suits them and at the same time they use their Semitic identity as a weapon against those who criticize them. This obvious double-standard is only aloud for Zionists to be used conveniently as a privilege and as a weapon of blackmailing!

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

John Ellis , you get loonier every day…

and glider libel be awful to be confused for me.

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By Ed Harges, June 13, 2010 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

Pat writes:

“Jewish kinship networks have been happening in most
civilized countries of the world for thousands of years, in
todays race sensitive society it could be deemed as
discrimination just like whites (non jew) hiring no one but whites,
blacks hiring just blacks, catholics hiring none but catholics and so on. “

Yes, but in America we have collectively (and I think correctly) been educated
that this kind of discrimination is bad. This means that Jews, who apparently
think there’s nothing wrong with it when they do it on behalf of each other, go
on practicing it, while the rest of are studiously policing ourselves to avoid even
the suggestion of doing it. So their presence in the elite keeps growing and
growing, very far out of proportion.

Furthermore, since Jews successfully (as of the mid-20th century) lobbied to
have themselves removed as a demographic category for official, legal
purposes (like those check-boxes on census forms or job apps for “white,
hispanic, black, native American, male, female, etc.) , there’s not even any way
to come up with hard, legally actionable numbers as to how much of this
favoritism may be really going on. Now we’re supposed to believe that their
extremely high overrepresentation in America’s elite is entirely due to superior
merit.

Well, maybe, but how do we know that?

And meanwhile, they’re using this power to keep our government’s foreign
policy subservient to Israel, while they warn us that even to talk about Jewish
power in America is anti-Semitic—and they have enough clout to hit you
where your job is in revenge, especially if you’re a high-profile journalist or
politician.

Just sayin’.

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By kalpal, June 13, 2010 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment

WOW! A white supremacist imagines that Europeans are the brainiest humans. Talk about ignoring evidence in front of one’s face? I retract my assessment that you are of high school freshman level. I see no evidence now that you made even a single A in your academic career and I believe that you left school before you managed to successfully complete the 6th grade. You may well have been in your mid teens by that time but your intellectual development end before you left school.

The only innovation white European created was the notion that you could sail somewhere and as soon as you landed plant a flag and declare that the place you just arrived in was now the property of your employer or country or even yours. I don’t recall any other people being so stupid or vicious or murderous as those wonderful white Europeans who filled the world with misery every place they visited stayed in.

So far as I can recall only white Europeans feel that they are the epitome of creation and that whatever force created the universe just adores them above all. As click and clack the tappet brothers say, “unencumbered by the thought process.”

Sweet dreams, booby. That is all you will ever have.

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By Palindromedary, June 13, 2010 at 1:03 pm Link to this comment

“An Eye for an Eye: The Story of Jews Who Sought Revenge for the Holocaust”—by John Sack
Get it for free at: http://www.archive.org/details/AnEyeForAnEye

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By PatrickHenry, June 13, 2010 at 12:38 pm Link to this comment

Indian run companies are typically in India and Chinese run companies are in China.  Their lines for employment are long and conditions apply.

Jewish kinship networks have been happening in most civilized countries of the world for thousands of years, in todays race sensitive society it could be deemed as discrimmination just like whites (non jew) hiring no one but whites, blacks hiring just blacks, catholics hiring none but catholics and so on. 

Nepotism is nothing new as many trades were home taught before public or paid education was availible to the masses.  Family members can be held accountable easier.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 13, 2010 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

P-H, E-H:

I don’t defend the religious nepotism.  Sorry if I gave that impression. I’m simply saying it’s a fact of life (Look how many Indian-run companies hire Indians, or Chinese-run companies hire Chinese). And I’m saying that favoritism, regardless of whether it’s right or wrong (and I agree it’s wrong) does not in any way sufficiently explain the past over-representation of Jews in business, professions or the intellectual pursuits.  But much more troubling is the following….

John Ellis, June 13 at 2:25 pm #

...
LIGHT
God created the Hebrew race to be most intelligent, second only to white Europeans, so that they would have the greatest ability to do good.  For they were God’s chosen people and given every advantage and blessing needed, blessed far beyond any other race, and could have been a light that forced all the darkness on earth to give way.  And surely God did this knowing full well that his chosen people would use their highest of intelligence to do the lowest of evil.

*********************************************

Now J-E shows us what he’s really about: White supremacy.  To him Jews are brilliant, but White Europeans are more brilliant.  News flash, J-E:  All Ashkanazi Jews who trace their roots to Europe are White and European.  Many Sephardic Jews are the same, especially if their families came from Italy Spain.

To him, the obvious next step is the ol’ racist one: White Europeans, for the good of the world, should dominate everyone else….

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

And I learned from my mother, and probably still some
scars to prove it,,,not to point my fingers

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By glider, June 13, 2010 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

Ed Harges
>>Glider, listen up. We Americans do have a special right to get extra angry about Israel’s viciously bad behavior. Why? Because since our government slavishly serves Israel and funds it to the gills, Israel’s bad behavior generates more
hatred and terrorism against us<<

Ed, I agree 100% with your statement and would not be sending any support to Israel and would be doing much more to force them into a 2 state settlement, which they are desparately seeking to avoid IMO.  That is not inconsistent with my point regarding this issue, “if you are not even handed in your criticism of bad behavior then you are by definition an Anti-Semite”, which pertains to be equally critical of our own bad behaviour throughout the world.

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By Ed Harges, June 13, 2010 at 10:02 am Link to this comment

re:By Inherit The Wind, June 13 at 10:55 am:

I didn’t say that Jewish nepotism entirely explains the disproportion.

I said that it’s reasonable to suspect that Jewish discrimination
in favor of Jews (including but not limited to nepotism, which refers
only to favoritism toward one’s family members) may explain part of the
phenomenon.

You misrepresented what I said, and then you refuted the falsified version.

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

I am from the alternative Howard Zinn
history school.

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 9:01 am Link to this comment

And present history speaks for itself.!!!!

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Other history books prove that before Western
Colonization of Middle East for oil at the end of the
19th century , that jews got along better in the
Middle East than they did anywhere else in the world.

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

And my own common sense taught me that if it
weren’t for oil , that nobody would care about
  AN ARAB OR A JEW

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

My learning taught me that Western Powers have been
drawing lines in the sand over in the Middle East
since the turn of the twentyth century to secure oil
rights.

What did yours teach you???

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 8:42 am Link to this comment

I want to know then, what did they teach you about
origins of the problems in the Middle East?

Is it a religious divide, or an economic fewd?.

my textbooks teach that it is an economic fewd turned into
a religious divide and that the U.S. is as responsible
as Isreal for all the criminal acts, as matter of fact
Isreal is just acting as a proxy for the international
investors in the Middle East.

What did your learning teach you.????

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By kalpal, June 13, 2010 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Ofersince, where did you attend school?

I studied in the USA, Israel, Canada and Germany.

I realize that none of those nations have adequate educational systems that meet with your approval but I am sure you’ll reveal to the world where one should get a truly first rate education. I’m sure your schooling is typified by a system that fosters most of the worlds brightest, award winning scholars who are not so ignorant as those Americans who believe anything they read in reactionary publications. 

Please enlighten us all about your rigorous and exacting education?

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By balkas, June 13, 2010 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

There appear only two available governances to us: at their end of development, a private governance, and a collective governance.

In US, private governance appears near the end of its development. Privately-owned governance wld not only own or have control of all resources-laws-constitution-schooling-information, but also people.

This is why so many people in US protest big govt. What they fear is collective governance. They are crying out for more personal ownership of governance.

Recall, tho, that resources-laws-governance-information-schooling is a one whole; no part of this whole can be separated from one another nor from the whole.

Thus, when ideally completed, many americans wld be owned much more than ever before!

Fortunato, koreans in the north, china, cuba, vietnam are or appear to be going for a collective governance; i.e, collective ownership of their respective lands.

Thus, sanctions, punishment, and demonization of such lands which are showing the way to, i expect, a better life for all! Also spricht bozhidarevski!

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 7:31 am Link to this comment

Jimmy Carter is the best ex-president of my lifetime

and if it wern’t for his Central African policy for the
oil companies, would have been a decent, not great, but
a better than average president…
He really got a bad rap on many things as president.
However the covert operations carried out in Central
Africa under his watch (he probably couldn’t have stopped
any more than Obama can) was unexcusable.  It led to
many genocides over over several decades that are still
happening today….
And to all those that still want to pretend that
the U.S isn’t behind all of Isreal’s criminal acts, where
did you attend school?

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By PatrickHenry, June 13, 2010 at 7:11 am Link to this comment

Inherit,  alot of truth in the educational disipline you mention, however I disagree with your statement.

“For every Jew that was shown favoritism by another Jew, 10 were shown the door by Gentiles”.

To me it somehow condones discrimmination no matter who is doing it.

Two wrongs don’t make right.

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By ofersince72, June 13, 2010 at 7:04 am Link to this comment

How many packs a day do you believe Obama is up to now???

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By Inherit The Wind, June 13, 2010 at 6:55 am Link to this comment

EH:

Yes and no.  But I think you agree with me (and not John Ellis) that getting kids educated and WELL-educated should be a top priority of a society.

It wasn’t just rich Jews—it was a tradition that goes back to the shtetl where every dumb Tevye dreamt of being a scholar—that image from “Fiddler” is an accurate one.  Scholars were always more prized than wealth—but education is the path to both.

My grandfather came here with nothing but his brain but built a small business that lasted 50 years. 

For every Jew that was shown favoritism by another Jew, 10 were shown the door by Gentiles.  Marx’s great line “I would never join any club that would have me as member” was sent to a country club that denied him membership as a Jew, but when he was a superstar, invited him to join.

There is this impression that Wall Street is run by Jews.  This is a crock.  Anyone in the business knows that most of the heads of most of the houses are NOT Jewish.  In fact, if there’s any predominant ethnic group in leadership, it’s Irish Catholics.  The former Co-Heads of Goldman were Paulsen and Corzine—one Northern European, the other Southern.  Neither are Jews.

You know this, yet you hammer on the stereotype.  The achievements in sciences, art, law etc by Jews are NOT due to nepotism—not enough Jews to counter the nepotism of the White Christian Euro Males who run most of it.

No, it comes back to being the first ethnic group to hit America where EVERYONE, from richest to poorest, valued education and learning as a cultural value.  It created the stereotype of the “smart Jew”.

Now we are seeing other groups, mainly Asian, with EXACTLY the same standard, getting the same results.

But rather than blame it on cultures that VALUE education for everyone (as anti-Western an idea that ever lived), YOU choose to blame it on…nepotism.

Ed, it’s simple: Not enough Jews for nepotism to work like that.  Do the numbers.

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By kalpal, June 13, 2010 at 6:33 am Link to this comment

It appears that if Asians keep making great strides in the sciences and business, the anti-semites will be forced to barnd them Jews, since Israel is in Asia or they will become an object of hatred just as balcks and Jews were and are. Of course, for quite some time in America in the 19th century Catholocs and Irish were lumped in with African Americans as being undesireable.

Those who hate don’t really care who it is they hate just so long as the object of hatred is defined as being other. Actually hatred of African Americans was mostly based on fear die to the obvious and egregious mistreatment of people solely based on skin color. The hatred arose out fear that someday vengence will rear its ugly head and cause many bigots to be lynched in the same fashion they so enjoyed doing to others. 

BTW John Ellis is at best a 95 IQ mentality. His thinking rests at about the level of a freshman in high school. I find it astonishing he knows how to operate a computer. Must have a little child around who helps him turn it on each day. His bigotry and his inability to think clearly indicates a strong desire to become a televangelist and get rich fleecing a flock in that fashion. I wish him all the best of luck.

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By Ed Harges, June 13, 2010 at 6:14 am Link to this comment

Re:By Inherit The Wind, June 13 at 12:15 am:

I think there is some degree of truth in what you say,
but I would note that it reads an awful lot like what privileged groups
have always said about themselves, that you can just look around you
and see that the people like us who predominate in elite positions of wealth and
rank are obviously the most cultured and civilized, while the clownish lower
classes are obviously—whether by upbringing or by inborn limitations—
devoted to lower pursuits, coarser, lazier, less devoted to education and
spiritual improvement, etc.

And furthermore (they always say), if we tend in hiring or promotion or
commercial dealings to favor those like ourselves, it’s only rational, since long
experience has only tended to confirm our expectation that people like us will
have the finer minds, the gentler manners, and be generally superior in
invention, industry, and punctuality. And if we congregate, nurture business
connections, and even close deals privately at our male WASPs-only country
club (read synagogue), well that’s just networking.

Inherit The Wind, given some of the statistics cited in this article and in other
studies of Jewish proportional overrepresentation in America’s elites, showing
such very heavy disproportion favoring Jews, it certainly is reasonable to
suppose that some degree of pro-Jewish discrimination by Jews might explain
a significant part of this pronounced discrepancy.

It just might show that in the latter decades of the 20th century, after the civil
rights movement (in which Jews played a very vocal part) legally forced open
the doors of many of those notoriously exclusive country clubs to Jews, blacks,
and women, American Jews have been hypocritically pursuing, with quite
literally a vengeance, the same sort of tribal favoritism which they so readily
denounce in others, and which is enshrined as the law of the land in Israel.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 13, 2010 at 5:13 am Link to this comment

John Ellis, June 13 at 8:43 am #

If no one of the white European or Hebrew race
were allowed to own more the $1 million, what in
the world would we do with all that excessive
wealth?  Because it would be 90% of all the
capital, gold and wealth in the world.

*****************************************

“Hebrew Race”??  Where DO you get this garbage?

I may not be the smartest guy in the world but I take cold comfort in the fact that I’m clearly and obviously far smarter than you.

I celebrate education and intelligence.
You celebrate ignorance and faith.

no contest.

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By Tinkie, June 13, 2010 at 2:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I am a Jewish socialist.. It seems people are still “stuck” in the racist swamp. This group is like this and that group is like that. Sure some Jews are capitalists, just like some protastants, and like some Muslims. Others are not.
In times of trouble, the finger is always pointed at the Jews, the perfect scapegoat.
The current Israeli government is horrendous, I completely agree, but this book is just plain racist. The global Elite will always use this book, so when the sh%$#t hits the fan, the Jews can be blamed again.
Very disappointed about this. Lenin was absolutely right when he told the people (after the progroms, because the Tsar and his gang also used the Jews, for the crowds to vent their frusterations on) the following:

“The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants, who were tortured by want, against the Jews. . . . Only the most ignorant and down-trodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. . . . It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. Among the Jews there are kulaks, exploiters, and capitalists, just as there are among the Russians, and among people of all nations . . . Rich Jews, like rich Russians, and the rich in all countries, are in alliance to oppress, crush, rob, and disunite the workers . . . Shame on accursed Tsarism, which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations”

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin#Combating_anti-Semitism

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By eso, June 13, 2010 at 12:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Not that anyone here cares about the real past of Europe and areas there about, but here is a list of sects related to the Jews, and which were once active in the same areas as they were.

The Bogomils http://1911encyclopedia.org/Bogomils
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism

The Cathars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

The Waldensians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

The Lollards http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lollardy

And of course “more”.

The reason for learning to know more about all of the above is that these are not “heretics” but the “originals” of what later became secular (Catholic) Christianity and Judaism, the latter one of the sects to survive the “religious cleansing” that began nearly a thousand years ago in Europe and carried the day—mostly for ill.

The history of the Jews arises from among the above, but has by now been “clarified” to have originated in Palestine.

The trouble with Christianity and Judaism today is that both have become religions completely out of touch with things Earthly as a result of having become practitioners of extreme virtualism; and of course the infinately ancient heretical Christianity has been consigned to hereticism.

You all have a nice Sun Day!
http://melnaysjanis.blogspot.com/

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By Palindromedary, June 12, 2010 at 11:06 pm Link to this comment

MarthA:
Palindromedary has nothing to do with that idiot, Sarah Palin. Of course, you are right, it is a one humped camel with no ass and two heads. I coined the word many years in Saudi Arabia, where they have real dromedaries, before I ever knew about her. If the term existed before about 1982 then I didn’t know about it. I do see a resemblance to a camel, though, when I look at her. And she’s just about as intelligent as a camel. No offense to camels. I dislike Palin and the right-wing twits who follow her and her idiotic ideology….even though I understand they are ticked off like the rest of us but they are largely derailed in the head as to why and who has caused our economic woes. They listen to too much Fox snooze and those right-wing bimbo air heads that have been largely disinformation artists in presenting ultra right wing propaganda. Of course now we, on the opposing side, listened to Obama and now look what he is doing. Now, who is whose bitch?  Or is there a “whom” in there somewhere. Fool me once…..no…you had your chance,UT…Where’s Malcolm X when you really need him!

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By MarthaA, June 12, 2010 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

Palindromedary, June 12 at 11:41 pm,

Wondering why you chose your name.  Are you Palin’s One Hump Camel, or what?  Because dromedary means one hump on a camel.  It appears by your name that you are a Republican humping for Sarah Palin a leader of the Republican Tea Party Movement.  Is that correct?

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By r.ross, June 12, 2010 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

mindful
“Why do Jews drift to the top of society, especially in
academia and finance? Surely 3 percent of the
population, and their hold 50-60 percent of CEO
investment bank positions begs some explanation?”

Well, just remember this is in the US where the Jewish ‘tribe’ has greater clout. You do not find this in other developed nations which have large Jewish communities. If Jews really were smarter you would, but you don’t. It happens in America for other reasons and Americans need to know what those reasons are.

The Jewish myth of superiority, intellectually and financially, is dangerous for Jews. It smacks too much of the ‘chosen people’ fantasy.

Then again, Israelis believe their God means them to be a ‘light unto nations’ and Americans believe their God means them to be a
light unto nations’ and they are the ones spilling the most blood around the world and offering their people the worst quality of life.

Luckily, out there in the rest of the world, there are heaps of nice places to live who don’t want or need to be a light unto anyone and where the average citizen has a far, far better quality of life.

It is ironic really, that Jews (and gypsies, and homosexuals and the Poles and a lot of others)suffered under Hitler because he and the Germans came to believe they were ‘chosen’; that they were superior, the elite race and yet this belief is a part of Judaism.

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By Child of the Universe, June 12, 2010 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’m Jewish.  I’m Jewish through my mother’s side of the family, which also makes
me half-Jewish and half-gentile.  It all depends on your point of view, but I can
assure you, I live with myself side-by-side quite contentedly.

May the rest of you on this planet do as well.

I’m not a religious person - I was raised in a cultural - and not religious way -
with traditions from both sides of my family.  Meaning things like Passover and
Hannukah, Christmas and New Years—and .. Thanksgiving which is (for once)
about everyone.

Let me also share this with you.  I’m an American, I’m struggling with
unemployment, a lack of healthcare, what’s happening to social security, why
our government is endlessly at war, where and how my son is going to college
.. and so on.  I’m a single parent whose son is Jewish because his mother is
Jewish, but who is also .. 1/4 Jewish and 1/2 Jewish.  Depending on how you
look at it.  He too lives with himself side-by-side quite contentedly.

What do I think?  When I read titles like “Capitalism and the Jews,” or “the Jews
have succeeded TOO MUCH proportionate to their group,” it sounds absurd to
me.  Not only because I am not a rich and materially successful lady, but
because ... well, some of you know.

Look, human beings are human beings.  We are ALL human beings.  ALL
“children of God.”  Thank “God” I studied evolutionary biology to save my
insanity among these theorists.  Thank “God” I don’t go to anything on Friday,
Saturday, or Sunday.  Thank GOD I SLEEP IN.

PEACE.  To all my brothers and sisters.  Among the Jews, the gentiles, the
Christians, the Palestinians, the Muslims, the atheists, the pagans, the
agnostics, the Buddhists, the Hindus, the wikkans, the spiritualists, whoever I’m
leaving out, and, the unclassifieds.

And NO, I will not shut my mouth, to those of you out there thinking what
you’re thinking.

May there be peace on earth, and love and kindness among us all.  May
Congress get their shit together, along with the Palestinians and the Israelis.

I love you all.  (Whether or not I vote for you.)

It is very sad to me watching the rise of anti-semitism among so-called
intellectuals.  But that’s the way it was, I guess, in the Europe I didn’t live in,
not so long ago.

To me, the question of Israel as a nation is finished, as a matter of common
sense.  You “Europeans” sent the Jews there, who couldn’t go back and couldn’t
go back and couldn’t go to America.  After you massacred them.  Now you’re
talking about reshuffling everyone again.  Well, it just doesn’t work that way. 
And too bad if you don’t like it that a number of Jews have become quite
powerful!  I wish I could run into some of them while I’m job-hunting!  Since ..
as you put it .. they’re EVERYWHERE.  It’s a conspiracy!

The Israelis and the Palestinians will just have to learn to live together, in peace. 
Maybe this is a task that God has given to everyone.  And even if a god hasn’t,
who cares?  It’s what commonsense and reason and understanding about who
we are on this planet, dictates.

Salaam.
Shalom.
Peace.

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By r.ross, June 12, 2010 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

john ellis

Actually the premise of communism is not government ownership but everything belonging to the people to be shared. The government is instrumental in overseeing the system but does not own everything and people do still have free will within their realm of interest but remaining cognizant of the needs of everyone in the community and not just themselves.

It is an idealist system and gauranteed to fail because it does not take into account the fearful and self-serving nature of human beings.

I have spent time in Russia and many people will tell you that they had a better quality of life as an average citizen under communism than they do now. Which is try. One could also argue that the millions of poor, working poore and illegal workers in the US don’t have any freedom either. When you can’t afford health care or a decent education and have to work three jobs to feed your family you are hardly free.

But I still think capitalism with its flaws is better than communism.

At this point in time regulated capitalism is the best we have.

As to religion, well, I have a lot of time for God and no time for religion but I don’t see the point in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


For all of the extremes that you cite there are people in the middle who can draw upon the wisdom, spirituality and compassion which the best of religions offer. Or rather, which religions offer at their best.

Then again, if you are American you are confronted with more of the worst of it more of the time so I understand why you reject it.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 12, 2010 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

I guess all the idiots claiming Jews are “naturally” smarter than others haven’t been paying attention to what’s going on in the schools up and down the East Coast, probably on the West Coast and many places in between.

The vast majority of the TOP students are of Asian descent.  They are disproportionally represented in all the “brainy” disciplines from the sciences to the orchestra. Asians are beginning to take their share of Nobel prizes, too. There is even a burgeoning resentment of them. It’s no longer the “smart Jews” it’s now the “smart Chinese” and “smart Indians”.

You don’t have to be an Einstein or a Roger Chen to figure out why: They are bringing a culture of better discipline with them to school, a discipline of study, tutoring, summer school for subjects you need help with, not just failed, and a sense that 2nd place is 1st loser, just like athletes.

And you hear the talk, both from parents and (2nd hand) from the kids.  The answer is, of course, to teach your kids to take school just as seriously, and to actively be involved. 

So when a “biology” teacher in some Bible-thumping Red state public school teaches “Creation Science” and “Intelligent Design” in accordance with their local skul bored (sic) you’re there to straighten your kid out.  And when a history teacher in Texas teaches your kid that the Declaration of Independence was drafted by “The Continental Congress” and that we went from John Adams to James Madison directly, you’ll be there to tell them that somebody named Thomas Jefferson had some small hand in it, that he wrote the Declaration, was the 3rd President, purchased Louisiana and defeated the Barberry Pirates.

I see it in my kid’s school and HE keeps up with the Asian kids because we taught him how to study and keep up.

Oh? Is that because I’m a “smart Jew”?
Or just one of a pair of thoughtful parents?

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By r.ross, June 12, 2010 at 7:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The Jewish ‘connection’ with the financial sector is irrelevant. You find similar behaviour in other groups which establish themselves just outside the host society; the Chinese and Indians as immigrants and expatriates; the Jain religion of India both in India and as expatriates. Any group which sees a need to remain separate… usually because of a belief in the inferiority of others, will work to maintain the power of the ‘tribe’ and a financial power base in the host community. Whether the source of superiority is religious or racial the end result is the same; the goal is gaining power to protect the ‘group’ from assimilation.

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By r.ross, June 12, 2010 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

spooky,

I didn’t miss the point. My point was that if something is written down 2,000 years ago… well, it wasn’t written actually, it was oral, and we read it today how much of the interpretation is what is actually said or our interpretation in light of what we know?

Exactly the same thing happens with the Nostradamus prophecies. Yes, their ‘appear’ to be accuracies but they are accurate in hindsight and all of the inaccuracies are overlooked.

You need to remember that all religious books, once they were written down, have been translated, edited, re-written, censored and embellished. This is a fact. The only way your position could hold is if the translation comes from the original aramaic and apart from a few shreds here and there, such a translation does not exist.

And in every translation there is interpretation. For instance, the word virgin in aramaic, on which the miraculous birth of Jesus is based, has nothing to do with any physical hymen but is accurately translated as: ’ an independent woman who is not financially dependent on a man.’

So, no, the translations of which you speak are not likely to be truly accurate and the interpretations will all be coloured by hindsight.

You can’t compare Jews and Arabs… you have to compare Muslims and Jews or Arabs and Hebrews or Israelis. Judaism is a religion not a race. And, Jews and Muslims and Christians and Hindus for that matter have often lived in harmony. Again, history is selective…the stories of harmony are rarely told as opposed to the stories of disharmony.

There is no battle between Arabs and Jews but there is a battle between Arabs and Israelis because of the behaviour of Israel and the forced colonisation of Palestine to create the Israeli state. The Arab/Jewish divide is propaganda. Jewish propaganda. Iran’s Jewish community refuses, time and again, offers from israel to move there. Jews live in harmony in many nations around the world, including Muslim nations. If life is harder for jews in muslim nations it is because of what Israel does.

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By Palindromedary, June 12, 2010 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment

I would prefer no religions or myths at all. That is the only course that will lead to sanity. If you still believe in the tooth fairy, santa clause, or god then you have never really grown up mentally. You still believe in magic. Unfortunately, many people just cannot separate fantasy from reality. “Nothing fails like prayer”. You can pray to the easter bunny and you will have the exact same chances of any desired positive outcome as if you prayed to whatever mythical god you’ve chosen to believe in. If, after praying to the easter bunny, you find that your “prayers are answered” then you say “see there it proves that the easter bunny is god and answers prayers”. If you finally expire at the end of your life term and your prayers have never really shown a positive outcome, then you, during your last breath before dying, say “well, the easter bunny works in mysterious ways” or some other inane utterance of stupidity and fealty to the fantasy you’ve wasted your life believing in.  “Beware of dogma” it’ll kill ya…or someone else!  Now there are those who darn well know there is no god but use the myth to control others. I believe there are a lot of those types about. Step into the “light” now…no, no not yet…ok, now step into the light, now before it is too late. Speaking of which, that reminds me of the story of “The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross” by John Allegro…a scholar and philologist who, in 1953 was working on the Dead Sea Scroll project. He was pretty much kicked off the team when his interpretations did not fit in with the Catholic run program of finding anything of a historical nature that would neatly fit in with the lies they have been handing down for 2000 years. It is not easy to go against the Catholic Church and John’s career took a dive until recently when he has gotten support from more modern day scholars who tend to back up a lot of what John said. Since the Dead Sea Scrolls didn’t even mention Jesus and, for that matter has any other written material from that era (The Dead Sea Scrolls were written between 200 B.C.E. and 68 C.E.) and they make such cryptic references it is hard to imagine that they weren’t all doing shrooms when they wrote the scrolls. If Jesus even existed he may very well have been a Sicari…assassins with big curved knives that would sneak up behind the victim in crowds and sneak away after doing the deed. Not saying I even believe that.
I don’t know…was Jesus gay or what?  Hope you didn’t just take a sip of coffee just then.  Aside from the very obvious forgery that Christians love to tout as a historical record there is nothing except “belief” or “faith” that, largely, the King James Version has given you. And that has been mangled by liars and scripture manipulators who have had a very anti-woman agenda. I just cannot understand why women would even put up with such crap or why conquered people eventually take up the conquering army’s belief system as their own. It certainly is not the “superiority” or it…except to say that it is simpler to believe in one god rather than many. If that was an improvement then there is yet one final improvement to be made….to have zero gods. 

Of course, I am anxious to watch the new movie Agora, Hypatia from Alexandria which will open soon (has opened in some select theaters already). It is a 2009 movie that has been playing all over the world except in the ignorant and theocratic/plutocratic United States. Move over Allah, we’ve got our own brand of religious zealots in the US. Makes me wonder why it took so long. I think it is pretty obvious why.

That was a really good joke about the beggars beside the road. And that says it pretty much why the Jews have created their religion…for the rich to control the people by manipulating their tendency to believe in superstition and magic. And, of course, all these religions heavily borrowed, stole, plagiarized from more ancient religions.. Egyptian, astrology

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By mindful, June 12, 2010 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

This it seems to me is a question that even if it had any conclusions, would probably go no where.
Perhaps it just an academic question. Why do Jews drift to the top of society, especially in academia and finance? Surely 3 percent of the poulation, and their hold 50-60 percent of CEO investment bank positions begs some explanation?

Recall Hitler accused the Jews of greed and banking oligarchy.

On one side one could say Jews are smart, talented and have the strength to see it through to the top.

On the other side one might posit a kind of conspiracy similar to Italians and the MOFIA.
Banking and wealth are a Jewish thing.

Maybe their fingers are honored by Mitus because as Izack Pearlman quipped, they’re circmcised.

We can also point to Jewish scholars and liberals who have introduced economic theory favoring socialism and thereby, everyone.

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By Ed Harges, June 12, 2010 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment

Concerning By glider, June 12 at 2:20 pm:

Glider writes:

“If you are not even handed in your criticism of bad behavior
then you are by definition an Anti-Semite.

Glider, listen up. We Americans do have a special right to get extra angry about
Israel’s viciously bad behavior. Why? Because since our government slavishly
serves Israel and funds it to the gills, Israel’s bad behavior generates more
hatred and terrorism against us.

So no, Israel, it’s not just your private business, and it’s not something we can
be expected to deplore no less and no more than any other injustice.

We don’t have to be at all even-handed about this.

It’s our business, you self-righteous bunch of greedy, parasitic ingrates.

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By omi saide, June 12, 2010 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Once again I prefer my own myths and illusions. Christianity, Judaism, muslism-all this stuff is out dated. Its time people make up a new religion that includes all people. And it will work.Look how long people truly believe in the characters in these fictionized stories. “There is no chosen people” in this world. The holocoust included homosexuals, retards,the disable and other people besides the Jews. Alot of people is tired of these three groups dominating the news, the economy, the problems….PEOPLE get over yourselves. Something truly has to be wrong in people that continue to talk about religions or groups associated as some sacred thing. The Eqyptian society left relics behind letting you know their authenicity in history. Everybody else just has word of mouth and fictional poems and dreamy metaphors-all is bogus.

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By kalpal, June 12, 2010 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

Spelling had nothing to do with it. Misuse of a term did. Perhaps one can err by writing dialect and trip into dialectic but I fail to see how. Excuse my limitations.

I’m glad that you are a legend in your own lunchtime and are the foremost Greek linguistic scholar alive. I hope your exhaustive Greek dictionary will make Johnson and Webster green with envy at their puny efforts in English.

Good luck to you!

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By PatrickHenry, June 12, 2010 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

glider, heres a clue.

The subject thread is “Capitalism and the Jews”, and yes some posts do not embellish the Jews.

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By glider, June 12, 2010 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

Average Joe (and others),
Take your Jew narrative and instead think of the equivalent narratives for yourself.  Think about the genocide of the American Indian, USA policies of Manifest Destiny and American Exceptionalism, nepotism amongst Christians, etc.  Then ask why you focus so much on the Jews.  If you are not even handed in your criticism of bad behavior then you are by definition an Anti-Semite.

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