@redteddy: You should, I think, take the time to read Scotty Mack’s excellent link. It seems you chose to attack him without doing so - an attack that makes you seem rather foolish, in my opinion. From your posts, it appears as though you’re taking pains to defend the indefensible, and I wonder why this is, particularly since you claim not to be a fan of men like Russell and Jay-Z. In any case, here’s what I consider the most salient statement from Scotty Mack’s link:

“...Simmons rose to prominence by promoting the worst forms of what he narrowly defined as hip-hop. From bling-bling to anti-human images of women and of Black and Brown people Simmons slung his wares in the streets and has been paid well for it. But he and his executive buddies used hip-hop and, as Clemente noted, “closed ranks” against the more radical and honest elements of the hip-hop community. He cut them off, refused support and used his position to reassure his sponsors and pacify his unwitting but frustrated supporters. And now his desire to bring Kanye West and Al Sharpton into the occupation mix had to be exposed for what it was and is; an attempt by the soft liberal Left to co-opt anything that has any degree of revolutionary potential.

“The sister stepped in to say loud and clear to Simmons that, ‘you are part of the problem Russell!’”

And it is obvious in this case that the occupiers’ fear of liberal co-optation is fully justified. Simmons’ presence and his bringing the likes of West and Sharpton serves as a people’s testimony against themselves and stands in direct opposition to the involvement in the occupying movements of those like Rebel Diaz, Immortal Technique and Jasiri X. Simmons is there to be the hip-hop representation that negates today’s representatives of those he previously “closed ranks” against. And those who caught this travesty were right, from multiple angles, to challenge that. CNN would have to give him camera time as they would certainly want to convey his brand of hip-hop activism. He would have to be there to position himself, or be positioned, as an appropriate spokesperson for hip-hop, young people and, of course, all of the world’s colorful people. Simmons is no better than, and is indeed only a browner version of, the White liberals who are often criticized for their mostly White middle-class “occupations.” And this anonymous sister represents precisely why more Black and Brown people should be involved in these kinds of events but also why they need to be ardent supporters of their own more “indigenous” struggles and organizers.”

If nothing else, I hope you’ll respond to this insight, penned by a Black academic who seems to understand that the co-optation of rap and hip-hop was aided and abetted by Blacks who bought into capitalism and its value system. Chuck D famously admonished: “Don’t believe the hype!” I suggest his words ring the bell of truth louder now than ever before. Are you guilty, redteddy, of believing the hype of Simmons and his like?

@Robespierre115

Jay-Z’s project in Africa focuses on bringing drinking water to villages where
there are none.  Yes, that’s right, accessible pumps, clean drinking water. I
guess its difficult to concentrate on becoming a ‘mogul’ if you have to walk five
miles for water. He’s been internationally awarded for what he’s done in small
African villages. You seem to think that because Jay-Z tells young people that
they can rise out of their circumstances he’s advancing a generation of would-
be moguls, this isn’t even close to being the problem the world is facing.  The
problem isn’t the number of moguls but the disenfranchisement of the middle
and working class, the increase in poverty caused by an unregulated financial
sector NOT Jay-z and whatever ‘Water for Life’ project he has going or telling
children they too can achieve what he has. 

And what is it your arrogance is attempting to project on me?  I think OWS is a
positive movement but I do believe they need to identify with specific goals and
formulate ideas that can go beyond sit-in, camp outs and protesting everything
willy-nilly.  They need to strike more decisively and strategically.  As for you I
cannot glean anything of your ‘political thought’ since you’ve spent the last few
posts pointing fingers at celebrities as if they promote all the worlds ills and
pass judgement on their character based on something you saw on the Bill
Maher show no less.  Am I supposed to glean that you ingest your political and
cultural knowledge from the Bill Maher Show?  Ad homs are the retreat of those
who lack intellectual ammunition, surely you know that.

Jay-Z wasn’t even the main target of what was being discussed but to clarify, I based my criticism on his appearance on the Bill Maher show where he discussed programs he promotes in Africa where young people are taught to be moguls, if that’s progress for you then, well, that just says a lot about you.

As for no style being the best style, that sort of postmodern idiocy is fine if you’re purpose to achieve nothing except getting some attention for protesting and nothing more. Consider the recent elections in Spain, the “indignados” movement stuck to your philosophy and refused to identify with anything or formulate any ideas, so the result was that the government simply ignored them, passed the austerity measures while the rest of the populace voted into power the ultra right-wing PP party. I would discuss it in more detail with you, but apparently you’re a better scholar of Gwen Stefani than of any serious political thought.

@ Robespierre115   “The issue here isn’t attacking the rich for the sake of
attacking the rich, the issue is rich people like Simmons who are part of the
corporate, financial world (as I pointed out again so you can understand,
Simmons OWNS A CREDIT CARD COMPANY) trying to pretend they can guide
OWS and tell the people what kind of change they need.”
And so what if he does?  It wouldn’t matter if he owned a bank for that matter. 
Banks used to be useful to the general public until it stopped doing what a bank
is supposed to do and engaged in speculation. Deregulation allowed for that. 
Credit cards are useful if there are laws that keep companies from fleecing the
users. Its not that there are banks or bankers, credit card companies or credit
cards, its the lack of regulation that is the culprit.  Unless you want to roll
things back to early 15th century you are going to have to deal with a financial
sector and a corporate world, these sectors are not inherently bad, they become
so when they are not properly regulated. Even egalitarian societies with highly
regulated financial sectors like those in Denmark, Norway or Sweden for
example have a financial sector and corporate world. 
Anyway where is there evidence that Simmons is trying to ‘guide’ OWS?  I
thought the movement was ‘all inclusive’?  Open to anyone who wanted a better
society?  Simmons wasn’t born owning a credit card company, he comes from a
working class background so unless you have special insight into the man’s
soul your rant against his intentions simply comes off as impulsive & without
insight.

RP:  “So that excuses his philosophy that minorities should strive to advance by
becoming corporaste moguls? You didn’t bother to analyze anything that was
discussed, you’re simply speaking out of instinct from being a fan of Jay-Z or
Simmons. I didn’t attack Jay-Z for being wealthy, I attacked him for what he
promotes. Tom Morello is another musician with a good bank account, but he
isn’t telling young people to be greedy assholes to get ahead, quite the
opposite.”
Where did I say I was a fan of Jay-Z?  I said Simmons and JZ are highly regarded
within the African-american community because of their success considering
their backgrounds, kind of like Oprah.  But you seem to be an expert on Jay-Z
so tell me exactly what he promotes? Funny how all of a sudden you sound like
one of those conservatives whining about the values promoted and having a fit
over Ice-T and Insane Clown Posse.  If anything Jay-Z and OWS seem to have
the same approach to success or as he puts it “Be fluid. Treat each project
differently. Be water, man. The best style is no style. Because styles can be
figured out. And when you have no style they can’t figure you out.”
You speak of Jay-Z as being ‘greedy’ when he worked his ass off, earning his lot
and then suddenly you form a forked tongue and say you are not attacking him
because he is wealthy.  So what it is it exactly?  What is it that Jay-z promotes
that irks you so much?  Last I heard the only thing he promoted with Rihanna’s
career.  Meanwhile the guys who get away with fleecing billions of dollars
through no other effort other than trading and losing other people’s money
suddenly go off the radar.  Is it because they are faceless and Jay-Z and or
Simmons are out in the open? Maybe you should add Gwen Stefani to your list
for singing

“Champagne kisses hold me in your lap of luxury
I only want to fly first class desires, you’re my limousine
So elegant the way we ride, our passion it just multiplies
There’s platinum lightning in the sky
Look I’m livin’ like a queen” From Luxurious

All you are doing is trying to blame contemporary figures for the values
inherent within the culture when they are only a product of it, not its creators.
Kind of like blaming Margaret Mitchell for southern racism.

@ Robespierre115   “The issue here isn’t attacking the rich for the sake of
attacking the rich, the issue is rich people like Simmons who are part of the
corporate, financial world (as I pointed out again so you can understand,
Simmons OWNS A CREDIT CARD COMPANY) trying to pretend they can guide
OWS and tell the people what kind of change they need.”

And so what if he does?  It wouldn’t matter if he owned a bank for that matter. 
Banks used to be useful to the general public until it stopped doing what a bank
is supposed to do and engaged in speculation. Deregulation allowed for that. 
Credit cards are useful if there are laws that keep companies from fleecing the
users. Its not that there are banks or bankers, credit card companies or credit
cards, its the lack of regulation that is the culprit.  Unless you want to roll
things back to early 15th century you are going to have to deal with a financial
sector and a corporate world, these sectors are not inherently bad, they become
so when they are not properly regulated. Even egalitarian societies with highly
regulated financial sectors like those in Denmark, Norway or Sweden for
example have a financial sector and corporate world. 

Anyway where is there evidence that Simmons is trying to ‘guide’ OWS?  I
thought the movement was ‘all inclusive’?  Open to anyone who wanted a better
society?  Simmons wasn’t born owning a credit card company, he comes from a
working class background so unless you have special insight into the man’s
soul your rant against his intentions simply comes off as impulsive & without
insight.

RP:  “So that excuses his philosophy that minorities should strive to advance by
becoming corporaste moguls? You didn’t bother to analyze anything that was
discussed, you’re simply speaking out of instinct from being a fan of Jay-Z or
Simmons. I didn’t attack Jay-Z for being wealthy, I attacked him for what he
promotes. Tom Morello is another musician with a good bank account, but he
isn’t telling young people to be greedy assholes to get ahead, quite the
opposite.”

Where did I say I was a fan of Jay-Z?  I said Simmons and JZ are highly regarded
within the African-american community because of their success considering
their backgrounds, kind of like Oprah.  But you seem to be an expert on Jay-Z
so tell me exactly what he promotes? Funny how all of a sudden you sound like
one of those conservatives whining about the values promoted and having a fit
over Ice-T and Insane Clown Posse.  If anything Jay-Z and OWS seem to have
the same approach to success or as he puts it “Be fluid. Treat each project
differently. Be water, man. The best style is no style. Because styles can be
figured out. And when you have no style they can’t figure you out.”

You speak of Jay-Z as being ‘greedy’ when he worked his ass off, earning his lot
and then suddenly you form a forked tongue and say you are not attacking him
because he is wealthy.  So what it is it exactly?  What is it that Jay-z promotes
that irks you so much?  Last I heard the only thing he promoted with Rihanna’s
career.  Meanwhile the guys who get away with fleecing billions of dollars
through no other effort other than trading and losing other people’s money
suddenly go off the radar.  Is it because they are faceless and Jay-Z and or
Simmons are out in the open? Maybe you should add Gwen Stefani to your list
for singing

“Champagne kisses hold me in your lap of luxury
I only want to fly first class desires, you’re my limousine
So elegant the way we ride, our passion it just multiplies
There’s platinum lightning in the sky
Look I’m livin’ like a queen” From Luxurious

All you are doing is trying to blame contemporary figures for the values
inherent within the culture when they are only a product of it, not its creators.
Kind of like blaming Margaret Mitchell for southern racism.

@redteddy, Apparently you love to believe in corporate slogans and projected public images. First off, Simmons doesn’t want to throw his credit card because HE OWNS A CREDIT CARD COMPANY, go back and actually read what I wrote. As for Jay-Z, so he gets a pass because he happened to be poor and became wealthy with his rap music? So that excuses his philosophy that minorities should strive to advance by becoming corporaste moguls? You didn’t bother to analyze anything that was discussed, you’re simply speaking out of instinct from being a fan of Jay-Z or Simmons. I didn’t attack Jay-Z for being wealthy, I attacked him for what he promotes. Tom Morello is another musician with a good bank account, but he isn’t telling young people to be greedy assholes to get ahead, quite the opposite.

The issue here isn’t attacking the rich for the sake of attacking the rich, the issue is rich people like Simmons who are part of the corporate, financial world (as I pointed out again so you can understand, Simmons OWNS A CREDIT CARD COMPANY) trying to pretend they can guide OWS and tell the people what kind of change they need.

@Robespierre115 who wrote:

“Simmons is probably the typical, wealthy “liberal” who likes to do his good
deed by supporting certain causes while making sure to keep anything truly
radical or system-changing at bay.”

And

“Simmons is just some opportunist. If he were a serious “fighter for the cause”
he would dump his credit card company. If a real revolution broke out this
clown would jump on a private jet with bags full of cash and leave for some
island. Simmons and his pal Jay-Z believe that the African American community,
if not everyone basically, should aspire to be greed-driven moguls in order to
“progress.” What a joke these people are.”

On your first comments I can only tell you that the majority of the 99%  are not
supportive of radical system change.  All they want is the rule of law,
reinstalling regulation and a transparent less corrupt political system.  The
majority of americans would like an end of unnecessary wars, a leash on
corporations and the financial sector.  The majority of americans want fairness
but not through anarchy, they want more equity but not collectivism.

Why would the wealthy throw out their credit cards?  Credit cards hate the
wealthy because they always pay on time and so the credit card companies
cannot profit from them.  Its the middle class who should throw away their
credit cards because the deregualtion directly affects those who are likely to
miss a payment.

As for your second comment I am curious if you have a window into men’s
souls.  Simmons comes from a working class background so I could understand
wholeheartedly if he understands the concerns of the working class and
chooses to support them in their effort towards change.  Why isn’t Moore and
opportunist?  Or Hedges?  I’m sure Hedges book sales have gone up greatly. 
You make the assumption that Jay-Z and Simmons make money out of greed
and not because they made wise choices such as owning their own labels and
promoting other artists.  I can tell you are not african-american, you wouldn’t
speak in these terms if you were, you would understand that the majority if not
all takes a great deal of pride in the success of these two artist/entrepreneurs.
African-americans are proud of blacks who do well, they are not jealous of
them nor do they want it taken away from them under the notion of ‘spreading
the wealth around’.  Some african-americans would like a life modeled after
them but most just want the opportunity to do well.  Attacking Simmons and
Jay-Z isn’t the same as attacking Goldman Sachs for a deregulated system, or
Washington for being in cahoots with the financial sector.  There are wealthy
people who became wealthy because of their artistry or because they’ve
produced something that was worth something to someone.  What we should
be focused on are those who made their wealth off of other people’s wealth. 
Those who made money by trading debt or money that didn’t belong to them. If
we focus on anyone who has more money in their pocket than you do you risk
targeting the wrong individuals.

@Scotty_Mack who wrote:

“Russell Simmons is there to co-opt this movement, not empower it.”

You know this how?  I hate to inform you but there are people who come out of
the working class or poor (Jay-Z) who managed to reach fame and fortune doing
what the love.  Simmons didn’t rob anyone, he isn’t a bank, he isn’t a deregulator,
he neither inherited his wealth nor did he accumulate it through selling off
someone’s debt to some unsuspecting person or institution or nation such as what
happened in the financial sector through bundling.  Be careful who you attack and
whom you malign, you may just be distracted into hating and mistrusting the
wrong party.

Russell Simmons is there to co-opt this movement, not empower it.  How many Haitians and Hondurans and Vietnamese does he enslave just to make his t-shirts?

http://blackagendareport.com/content/russell-simmons-still-ain’t-hip-hop-and-he-ain’t-no-occupier-either

@EmileZ, you got it.

@ Robespierre115

I think I might understand.

Postmodernism is some meaningless sort of mental fog brought about by our meaningless culture and meaningless academia and meaningless journalism, etc. and general lack of integrity reaching towards practically metaphysical proportions.

Have I got it wrong???

Postmodernism is basically this current way of thinking where there’s no left or right, capitalist or socialist, red or white etc. In the case of OWS and other movements like in Spain, it means people protest, but nobody is willing to take a definitive stand or form a specific idea aside from general, vague slogans everyone can shout but never debate.

Anyhow (thanks for the excellent response Robespierre115, best comment I have read in quite a little long while, though I still don’t know what postmodern means).

Here is one of my favorite Public Enemy videos…

Shut Em Down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB4D-GbQ9A4

@EmileZ, When it comes to Jay-Z I based my comment on an appearance he made on Bill Maher’s show where he promoted “programs” he supports in Africa which teach impoverished, rural youth to basically aspire to be corporate moguls, and he used those exact words.

Simmons is probably the typical, wealthy “liberal” who likes to do his good deed by supporting certain causes while making sure to keep anything truly radical or system-changing at bay. The upper classes of liberalism have always been experts at throwing bones at the masses, feeling good about themselves but making sure to protect their interests.

I read Michael Moore’s set of proposals and they made some sense, what the OWS movement should take out of it is the need to start forming a coherent alternative to replace the current order. Postmodern kids seem to get confused when it comes to their philosophy of a “leaderless” movement. As classic anarchism, council communism and Luxemburguist left Marxism show, it’s not just about being leaderless, but HOW you are leaderless.

@ Robespierre115

I give you the benefit of the doubt about Jay-Z and such(I dunno, maybe I shouldn’t, but I will as I have read many of your comments and you seem like a pretty intelligent guy). I haven’t listened to Jay-Z (I kind of like Public Enemy though).

Anyhow…

What do you think of his proposal??? It is quite specific, a constitutional amendment to ban private contributions to public elections (national elections I believe).

I like it, but I don’t think it goes far enough considering the recent Citizens United ruling.

I must admit, however, when I see this kind of video, which appears somewhat staged, I wonder how serious he really is.

Perhaps he has been inspired by OWS, and is making his little rich man baby steps in order to further his spiritual practice (it sounds like a good spiritual practice).

Perhaps that is better than nothing and he might be applauded for it.

Perhaps it is a grave threat emanating from a group of power-players who hope to co-opt OWS.

I dunno.

I just dunno.

Simmons is just some opportunist. If he were a serious “fighter for the cause” he would dump his credit card company. If a real revolution broke out this clown would jump on a private jet with bags full of cash and leave for some island. Simmons and his pal Jay-Z believe that the African American community, if not everyone basically, should aspire to be greed-driven moguls in order to “progress.” What a joke these people are.

Please see Occupy Wall Street.org for information about nationwide plans for December 6 regarding mortgage foreclosures,  and plans for Thanksgiving Dinner at Zucatti Park, supervised by famous chef.
Enough with the “Secretive Affinity Group” bit!

Meanwhile down in DC…

RAW VIDEO: NY Occupy Marchers Reach DC
Occupy marchers from New York arrive in Washington,
D.C., after the group walked 240 miles in the past two
weeks.
http://www.newslook.com/videos/374223-raw-video-ny-
occupy-marchers-reach-dc?autoplay=true

You gotta be kiddin’ me.  This guy is just looking for another paycheck and you’re calling him a “crusader”?  WTF???