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Arts and Culture

Oliver Stone Responds to New York Times Attack

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Posted on Jun 28, 2010
Jose Ibanez / "South of the Border"

Editor’s note: For more from Oliver Stone about his new documentary and clips from “South of the Border,” click here.

The following letter was sent to The New York Times:

Larry Rohter attacks our film, “South of the Border,” for “mistakes, misstatements and missing details.” But a close examination of the details reveals that the mistakes, misstatements, and missing details are his own, and that the film is factually accurate. We will document this for each one of his attacks. We then show that there is evidence of animus and conflict of interest, in his attempt to discredit the film. Finally, we ask that you consider the many factual errors in Rohter’s attacks, outlined below, and the pervasive evidence of animus and conflict of interest in his attempt to discredit the film; and we ask that The New York Times publish a full correction for these numerous mistakes.

1) Accusing the film of “misinformation,” Rohter writes that “A flight from Caracas to La Paz, Bolivia, flies mostly over the Amazon, not the Andes….” But the narration does not say that the flight is “mostly” over the Andes, just that it flies over the Andes, which is true. (Source: Google Earth)

2) Also in the category of “misinformation,” Rohter writes “the United States does not ‘import more oil from Venezuela than any other OPEC nation,’ a distinction that has belonged to Saudi Arabia during the period 2004-10.”

The quote cited by Rohter here was spoken in the film by an oil industry analyst, Phil Flynn, who appears for about 30 seconds in a clip from U.S. broadcast TV. It turns out that Rohter is mistaken, and Flynn is correct.  Flynn is speaking in April 2002 (which is clear in the film), so it is wrong for Rohter to cite data from 2004-2010. If we look at data from 1997-2001, which is the relevant data for Flynn’s comment, Flynn is correct. Venezuela leads all OPEC countries, including Saudi Arabia, for oil imports in the U.S. over this period. (Source: US Energy Information Agency for Venezuela, http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MTTIMUSVE2&f=A, and Saudi Arabia,  http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MTTIMUSSA2&f=A)

3) Rohter tries to discredit the film’s very brief description of the 1998 Venezuelan presidential race:

“As ‘South of the Border’ portrays it, Mr. Chávez’s main opponent in his initial run for president in 1998 was “a 6-foot-1-inch blond former Miss Universe” named Irene Sáez, and thus “the contest becomes known as the Beauty and the Beast” election.

“But Mr. Chávez’s main opponent then was not Ms. Sáez, who finished third, with less than 3 percent of the vote. It was Henrique Salas Romer, a bland former state governor who won 40 percent of the vote.”

Rohter’s criticism is misleading. The description of the presidential race in the film, cited by Rohter, is from Bart Jones, who was covering Venezuela for the Associated Press from Caracas at the time. The description is accurate, despite the final results. For most of the race, which began in 1997, Irene Sáez was indeed Chavez’s main opponent, and the contest was reported as “Beauty and the Beast.” In the six months before the election, she began to fade and Salas Romer picked up support; his 40 percent showing was largely the result of a late decision of both COPEI and AD (the two biggest political parties in Venezuela at the time, who had ruled the country for four decades) to throw their support behind him. (See, for example, this 2008 article from BBC, which describes the race as in the film, and does not even mention Salas Romer: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7767417.stm.)

Rohter’s description makes it seem like Saéz was a minor candidate, which is absurd.

4) Rohter tries to frame the film’s treatment of the 2002 coup in Venezuela as a “conspiracy theory.”  He writes:

“Like Mr. Stone’s take on the Kennedy assassination, this section of ‘South of the Border’ hinges on the identity of a sniper or snipers who may or may not have been part of a larger conspiracy.”

This description of the film is completely false. The film makes no statement on the identity of the snipers nor does it present any theory of a “larger conspiracy” with any snipers. Rather, the film makes two points about the coup: (1) That the Venezuelan media (and this was repeated by U.S. and other international media) manipulated film footage to make it look as if a group of Chavez supporters with guns had shot the 19 people killed on the day of the coup. This manipulation of the film footage is demonstrated very clearly in the film, and therefore does not “[rely] heavily on the account of Gregory Wilpert” as Rohter also falsely alleges. The footage speaks for itself. (2) The United States government was involved in the coup (see http://southoftheborderdoc.com/2002-venezuela-coup/ and below).

Ironically, it is Rohter that relies on conspiracy theories, citing one dubious account in particular that he argues we should have included in the film.

5) Rohter accuses us of “bend[ing] facts and omit[ting] information” on Argentina, for allowing “Mr. Kirchner and his successor — and wife — Cristina Fernández de Kirchner to claim that “we began a different policy than before.”

“In reality, Mr. Kirchner’s presidential predecessor, Eduardo Duhalde, and Mr. Duhalde’s finance minister, Roberto Lavagna, were the architects of that policy shift and the subsequent economic recovery, which began while Mr. Kirchner was still the obscure governor of a small province in Patagonia.”

This criticism is somewhat obscure and perhaps ridiculous. The Kirchners were in the presidency for five out of the six years of Argentina’s remarkable economic recovery, in which the economy grew by 63 percent. Some of the policies that allowed for that recovery began in 2002, and others began in 2003, and even later. What exactly are the “bent facts” and “omitted information” here?


New and Improved Comments

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By Inherit The Wind, August 23, 2010 at 3:25 am Link to this comment

All the defenders and apologists for Chavez pretend he’s not failing at the two things governments are supposed to do:
Help people’s lives get better.
Help keep them safe.

While most of Latin America is doing well, with growing economies, Venezuela’s is shrinking rapidly, with runaway inflation.

The murder rate has skyrocketed, dating to Mr.Chavez’s taking office.  When Washington, DC hit its worst murder rate, and nearly 500 people were killed in a single year in the early 90’s it still doesn’t Caracas murder rate of 200/100,000—it was less than half that.

The following explains what and why:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/world/americas/23venez.html?_r=1&hp;

Report this

By diamond, July 21, 2010 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

Of course AlvaroHEnrique, Chavez is not compassionate when he tries to educate the poor and help them to climb out of poverty and give their children a chance in life, but the fascists who gunned down their own supporters so they could blame it on Chavez are fine, upstanding, compassionate and Christan gentlemen, aren’t they? Here’s a clue: ranting is not using facts to explain your argument. A good point badly made becomes a bad point, not that you had a good point to start with because you’re defending the fascists and they are simply indefensible.

Report this

By AlvaroHEnrique, July 18, 2010 at 10:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This movie is ridiculously one-sided and apologized.

Compassionate? Chavez? Give me a break. The guy goes on
TV to attack his opponents, big and small, with venom
and anger. He points fingers at a building and has it
“expropiated” instantly. He rejects the presence of
Chilean observers during the upcoming elections.

Yes….truly, this is the work of a great and
compassionate man. Oh brother…

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 12, 2010 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment

ofersince72, July 12 at 8:49 am #

Inherit_The_Wind….

You can blame your friend Ardee,  for everytime I
try to leave with a hand extended…..he slanders me
again….and as long as he does that ,  I will keep
hitting you Democrat Party Supporters with multible
fists of truth that none of you seem to care for.

Later, gotta go ITW, I have busy day today, If you can
keep the Liar reference off of me…
I will keep to my word and be gone , long gone,
and you may make anything you want about Stone or anyone.

*********************************

No, Ofer, it’s not Ardee’s fault. You and you alone are to blame for your abusive serial posting.  You and you alone bear the responsibility for deliberately destroying threads.

Go back and read what I wrote—I NEVER said or intended it to be inferred that Stone supports Polansky the child molester.  Rather I was referring to a POSTER, HERE whose views and behavior are as unpleasant as yours.

Had you actually read what I wrote you would have observed that.

And you persist in your lie that Ardee is a Democratic Party supporter.  Since I AM one (albeit reluctantly) I can assure you positively that he is no more a Dem supporter than Rush Limbaugh is! (Although Ardee’s distaste for Dems is NOT based on the same premises as the fascist big-mouth).

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

Now Ardee, I am supposed to take a 78 year old disabled
woman to the doctor today, but first I have to put the
head back on the engine of my truck…

so toddle lee doo…...have fun calling me names while
I am gone

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 6:24 am Link to this comment

You haven’t shown me to be anything Ardee, especially
a liar….............

  I have shown myself to be a multible poster

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 5:58 am Link to this comment

Ardee, if you took the time to write some of the
questions that I posed,  why didn’t you include the rest

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 5:48 am Link to this comment

I am not going to get into the name calling with you
anymore though Ardee,  I will leave all garbage to you
as it originally started.

  I don’t need that weapon !!!!!!

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 5:43 am Link to this comment

I told you Ardee,  your Norman Solomon tricks won’t
work anymore….........................................

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 5:37 am Link to this comment

Those questions weren’t presented to you Ardee, but
to the ones that always have their fingers pointed
elsewhere but home,

I told you two days ago, that I understand some of your
politics, although you are a fence straddler
POSTED BY ARDEE, MAY 26

“As to the bile poured upon Grayson by commune115, well
you keep looking for the perfect hero, I wish you much
luck in you search.  Meanwhile would you mind very much
getting the heck out of the way while the rest of us
try to make progress.”

There wasn’t a damn thing wrong with commune115 post to
warrent that responce by you.
As for all the questions that I posed , they were for
rfidler and Itw, who both point their fingers everywhere
but back at home…...................................
Why you feel guilty?

Report this

By ardee, July 12, 2010 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

ofersince72, July 11 at 9:36 pm #


rfidler, ItW, Ardee,

Do you dismiss the U.S. role in the coup attempt
against Chavez as most major media did?
Do you dismiss the 20th century domination , hegmemony, installation of dictators and genocide that U.S. policy
inflicted on Latin America?
Do you dismiss the role of the U.S. in the overthrow
of the Allende government in Chile? or its role in
the dictatorship of Argentina?
What is considered an intelligent debate concerning
Latin America?  any conversation that supports
Latin Ameria’s reactionary governments , is that what
poisons the thread and debate?

Do you have a reading comprehension disorder? That would certainly dovetail with both yoru obvious megalomania and your childish multiple posting behavior…a score of posts in which nothing whatever is said, nice work!

I have never, ever taken any of the positions you prattle about, but, of course, truth is far from your long suit.

Report this

By ardee, July 12, 2010 at 4:57 am Link to this comment

ofersince72, July 12 at 8:49 am

Some folks believe words have meaning, you use words to prove your instability and lack of respect for truth. Slander, I think, means speaking untruth, thus my words are certainly defaming but not slanderous as you are exactly what I show you to be.

Still waiting, oh motormouth, for proof of my “loyalty to the democrats”.......Oh and I dont care how long you stay here and pollute every thread you enter, your every post proves your lack of worth.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 4:49 am Link to this comment

Inherit_The_Wind….

You can blame your friend Ardee,  for everytime I
try to leave with a hand extended…..he slanders me
again….and as long as he does that ,  I will keep
hitting you Democrat Party Supporters with multible
fists of truth that none of you seem to care for.

Later, gotta go ITW, I have busy day today, If you can
keep the Liar reference off of me…
I will keep to my word and be gone , long gone,
and you may make anything you want about Stone or anyone.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 4:26 am Link to this comment

I didn’t want to be the one that challenged

Inherit_The_Wind on the post that refered to

Oliver Stone being just a pot-boiling Hack that

was OK with child molestation,  I even let Ardee

go all day long with referenceing me a liar again

  But no one was concerned about what
Inherit_The_Wind called Oliver Stone…so i responded

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 12, 2010 at 4:10 am Link to this comment

Diamond:  You are entitled to your opinions of Stone just like I am.  You choose to believe his crap: That’s your biz.  If you are entertained by his movies, all power to you.  I am not, and NO movie means anything to me unless it first entertains me.  And I am entertained by everything from “Duck Soup” and “Animal House” to “Kagamusha” and “Citizen Kane”, to John Sayles and Stanley Kubrick.

Ofer multi-posts as a form of abuse against other posters.  He thinks it’s his business but it’s not. I forgot who said that the freedom to swing your fist as you like stops before it hits my nose.  Ofer has no respect for that.  He doesn’t care what you think, Diamond, or you, Patrick Henry, or you, Moon<whatever>. He’s like Rush Limbaugh: he believes in one-way communication and in trying to kill all debate.  This is why he serial posts until a thread is dead. 20 posts in a row isn’t a debate and isn’t intended as a debate.

It’s intended to shut up anyone disagreeing with him.  It’s a technique long employed by the Religious Right.  I do not know why TD allows him to persist in this frankly abusive behavior.

He can’t even get his facts straight—I never said STONE defended Polansky, nor probably defended Polansky (He may have, he may not have—I don’t know).  In his jump to conclusions, Ofer ASSUMED I meant Stone. I did not.  That should be blatantly obvious.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 4:00 am Link to this comment

The Term Limits law that most everyone would like to
see passed, is that going to be enacted through state
legislation or federal?

  If it is done through state legislation, won’t that
put the states that pass this progressive legislation
at a disadvantage if other states don’t pass it ??

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 3:38 am Link to this comment

That post by Inherit_The_Wind that refered to
Oliver Stone as a Hack and suggested that Stone was OK
with child molestation, stood all day long without a
comment until I challenged ITW on it.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, July 12, 2010 at 3:36 am Link to this comment

I agree diamond, I like Oliver Stone as a director.

I also like Chavez, however as in American politics, I don’t like the same people elected into office over and over, hence I support term limits.  I believe they should be universal if a country is to call itself a democracy.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 3:31 am Link to this comment

Isn’t that exactly just what I said Diamond???

Report this

By diamond, July 12, 2010 at 2:09 am Link to this comment

This thread has gone to hell. You’re all now arguing about yourselves and not the facts. Oliver Stone is not a hack, not a child molester and is telling the truth about Chavez and, more impressively, about his own county’s treatment of the third world which continues to this moment in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 12:42 am Link to this comment

There are many Truth Dig posters that can eat my lunch
in a debate, but it isn’t of you that have been on this
thread the past week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 12:36 am Link to this comment

And Moonraven, you also have a lot of nerve saying that
I took this thread to the toilet after showing off
your Spanish vulgarities.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 12:24 am Link to this comment

And furthermore Inherit_The_Wind, at this point in the
decline of civilization, I am not worried about the
inconvenience that I may pose to you at the end of a
thread with multible postings.
  because the eco-system that I also fought to protect
for forty years is now beyond the point of repair, it
probably was forty years ago, I remember in the sixties
my father telling me that the oceans were polluted and
the phtoplankton required to maintain oxygen levels for
civiliziation will soon be dead…He was ahead of his
time, wasn’t he???????

Report this

By ofersince72, July 12, 2010 at 12:15 am Link to this comment

I have more respect for the ex-rfidler, alias
Rico the Suave than I do for you Democrat Supporters.
At least he admits he is of a privilaged class and is
going to vote to protect that status , others be damned,
not do a bunch of “feel good” rhetoric and vote your
specific interests which are the same as Rico’s only you
hide them behind a mask.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 11:54 pm Link to this comment

You see Inherit_The_Wind…..

If my wife of the eighties and ninties decades could
have a penny for everytime she heard me say “The
American Public is going to wake up when the money is
all gone and wonder where all their rights went”, she
could retire right now and not be wondering why she can’t
afford to go to the doctors office and have the tests that
all women of her age require.
  And that is what happened, and everyone wants to blame
it all on G. Bush, while I was for decades trying to get
progressive Democrats as yourself to quit supporting
the Democrats until they started representing us..
The Obama Admin and the 111th congress is typical of
of Democrat representation, not something new.  There has
been a collusion by both parties since the start of the
Cold War, I care not the history before this time because
it is meaningless in getting us out of the position we
find ourselves in now.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 10:20 pm Link to this comment

The fact is Inherit_The_Wind, it is postings like yours
that suggests that a person like Oliver Stone supports
child molestation, and posters like Ardee that call me
a liar , but won’t say why,

  That brings out the pesky, annoying, multible postings
of OFERSINCE72….

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 10:02 pm Link to this comment

Inherit_The_Wind

All those postings were designed to have citizens as
yourself to examine your own government that you have
allowed to act in a criminal manner…....

  Before you go pointing your finger at other
governments all around the world, especially Latin
American governments that are finally throwing off
the shackles of U.S. hegomeny.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

Inherit_The_Wind

Maybe so, that is my business, however, I didn’t expect
an answer to any of the questions I posed, especially
from you,,,,,,

and, what I did isn’t any sillier than calling
Oliver Stone a hack, and someone that supports
child molestation.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

Ardee , you didn’t really believe I would leave with
label liar on my heels, did you?
I can only take from this that you don’t wany be to
leave, cuz you know I will respond every time you call
be a liar ...............................................

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 11, 2010 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

Ofer:

You have a problem. You need help. 20 or 21 posts in a row without an answer, all short, is sign of a mental problem.  Get help.  You need it.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment

In ending for the night,  I encourage the few
to go to youtube and listen to the Carnegie Hall
version of Harry Belefonte singing
“CU CU RU CU CU PALOMA”

and you will hear the beauty that I once thought of and
saw in America.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

Why is the media, including TD, giving more
credence to a Sara Palin candidacy than to a Paul one for
the Republican nomination?

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

If the presidential elections were help tomorrow
which candidate most represents you beliefs..

Cynthia McKinney
Ron Paul
Barrack Obama
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

After the 2006 & 2008 elections, the American public
was only about one election cycle away from completly
destroying the Republican Party,  do you feel that the
Democrats deserve your vote after spending the the
political power we gave them to rebuild the
republican party??

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

Do you not agree that the U.S. and Israel’s
fingerpointing at Iran is the classic
“pot calling the kettle black”?

And that it is imperitive that Americans find some way
to stop the U.S. and Israel from attacking Iran?

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

Would such a law not also address some of the
immigration problems?
  If the Democrats, while they were in power ,
could have addressed the War on Drugs honestly, would
that not have also addressed some of the immigration
problems…

  The real truth is,  neither the Dems or the Pubs want
  to honestly address the immigration problem, because
  there is much political power to keep in having the
  public constantly, out of ignorance , debating immigration.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment

Does anyone believe that it would be a bad idea to
rip up the NAFTA Act,  and implement a law that would
require imports to show fair wages, health care, and
a safe product.???????????

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment

Ardee , all you are doing is perpetuating the Norman
Solomen trick.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 6:41 pm Link to this comment

I will answer that one for you too , since I know that
none of you will,

  It is because you don’t want an honest debate, you want
a one sided, tunnel vision view from the duplistic
duopoly to dominate this debate… Sorry Charlie…....

that I “poisoned” that for you !!!!!!!!!!!

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

Just as you don’t like all the ills of our society
strapped on the back of Obama, why is it you feel
obligated to do just that to Hugo Chavez?

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

That is just why I understand all the name calling
that is thrown on me…

Defending the Duopoly puts you at an exteme disadvantage
so you are reduced to name calling

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

Does it not bother you as much as it does me that
our Secretary of State is a member in good standings of
the

  INTERNATIONAL LIARS CLUB

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

Do you not agree that when our government reports that
there has been a slight drop in the trade imbalance, that
it usually means we have had another big arms sale?

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment

Since everybit of U.S.  military involvment in our
lifetime has been based on lies,  do you support the
recent bi-partisian vote
99 — 0   Senate
408 — 8   House….signed into law with much media
fanfare by Obama.

  Do you not agree that the war on Iraq was based on
a WMD lie in collusion with the media,

  and that the same lie with the same media collusion
is being done all over again with another oil rich nation
of the Middle East?

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment

I will answer for you,,,no, it is not poisoning the
debate, it is taking the debate away from where you want
the debate focused.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

When I point out that the U.S. is nothing but a
corporate dictatorship backed by a trillion dollar a
year military, and that we should be focused on our
own business straighening this mess out , rather than
on the shortcomings of struggling Latin American goverenments , is that poisoning the debate????????

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

After rfidler or rico , whatever, calls Cuba a shithole,
and I ask for reasons and causes for such a description,
does that poison the debate?

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

rfidler, ItW, Ardee,

Do you dismiss the U.S. role in the coup attempt
against Chavez as most major media did?
Do you dismiss the 20th century domination , hegmemony, installation of dictators and genocide that U.S. policy
inflicted on Latin America?
Do you dismiss the role of the U.S. in the overthrow
of the Allende government in Chile? or its role in
the dictatorship of Argentina?
What is considered an intelligent debate concerning
Latin America?  any conversation that supports
Latin Ameria’s reactionary governments , is that what
poisons the thread and debate?

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

“A pot-boiling hack…...

  I bet a certains someone was a vehement defender….”


Is that the intelligent debate you speak of rfidler??

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment

Why do you insist on calling me a liar Ardee, produce
it or shut mouth.

Report this

By ofersince72, July 11, 2010 at 2:12 pm Link to this comment

I see the similarities between Ardee, ITW, and rfidler.
and also understand why they have to label those that
don’t agree with perception of Latin America.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 11, 2010 at 5:42 am Link to this comment

So nobody knows anything about Oliver Stone but a moonbeam!

Hah! What is there to know about ANY director but the movies he or she makes? Oliver Stone is nothing but a pot-boiling hack who is so busy with his “message” he forgets it’s still JUST A MOVIE.  Plus he portrays fiction and fantasy as fact.

I’ll bet a certain someone was a vehement defender of child-molesting Roman Polansky against his being incarcerated after he became a fugitive.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 11, 2010 at 5:37 am Link to this comment

OK, not friends, how about amiable opponents? Two guys disagreeing with good intent and high spirits? I find you to be honest, and there are those here who are not. That supersedes all the misplace trust you have ( OK that was a bit of a whimsical note)...maybe friendship will grow?
****************************

That’s cool! I’m always amiable, except when I’m not… smile

I just wanted it clear to a moonbeam that I defend more than JUST my friends when they are wronged.

Report this

By ardee, July 11, 2010 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, July 10 at 1:30 pm #

Hey Rico!
How odd to find myself agreeing with you, Ardee and Patrick Henry all at the same time.

Just goes to show you that anything is possible! Even that improbable lineup….

ofer and Moon have ruined this thread, but so what?

I confess to being culpable in that respect as well. The very best way to combat trolls like those two is through silence; and I have, so far, been incapable of following my own advice. I do intend to try harder though.

BTW, ofer, Ardee has NEVER supported the Democratic Party on TruthDig and your contention that he has or that he’s a shill for them is a lie.  He’s telling the truth.  And, no, Ardee and I are NOT friends.

As a democratic partisan you would be in a position to know that truth, and I thank you for the mention thereof ( though I know it is not a favorable position to you).

OK, not friends, how about amiable opponents? Two guys disagreeing with good intent and high spirits? I find you to be honest, and there are those here who are not. That supersedes all the misplace trust you have ( OK that was a bit of a whimsical note)...maybe friendship will grow?

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By ofersince72, July 10, 2010 at 8:31 pm Link to this comment

Patrick, nope…....Please don’t vote
Democrat…..............................................

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By PatrickHenry, July 10, 2010 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

Well moonraver, your apparent la raza racism and know-it-all communist ideology don’t wash for those of us who have seen history unfold.

You know nothing of my South American travels, incarcerations and first hand knowledge of the class warefare which has existed prior to any “gringo” or green coat arriving.

Its all apocalyto to you.

Ofer, do you get paid by the posting?

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By moonraven, July 10, 2010 at 9:57 am Link to this comment

I find it reprehensible that this thread has become nothing but a toilet to jerk off in.

Nobody appears to know who Oliver Stone is, or Chavez.

I suppose I should not be surprised….

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By Inherit The Wind, July 10, 2010 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

Hey Rico!
How odd to find myself agreeing with you, Ardee and Patrick Henry all at the same time.

ofer and Moon have ruined this thread, but so what?

BTW, ofer, Ardee has NEVER supported the Democratic Party on TruthDig and your contention that he has or that he’s a shill for them is a lie.  He’s telling the truth.  And, no, Ardee and I are NOT friends.

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By ofersince72, July 10, 2010 at 7:03 am Link to this comment

The waters were poisoned a long time ago , and it
sure wasn’t by me…................
nor the Gulf…...
You wantin to do a finger pointin thing this mornin rico?

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By ofersince72, July 10, 2010 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

Rico, you’re another one that likes to point fingers
all around the world, while you are sitting at the
table of the World’s largest debtor nation that hasn’t
produced a trade surplus ,,,,,,,, since whey Rico??

  Sure like like lay fire to struggling Latin American
nations though…..Just like good ole boy American,
and we don’t even have elections that aren’t bought and
sold by Wall Street…...keep pointing Ricoo

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By ofersince72, July 10, 2010 at 6:27 am Link to this comment

Good, You made my day !!!!

Now I must protect Truth_Seek_Wand, you wouldn’t believe
it rico,

  It is the Amazon with the huge, huge, rack that is after
it now.  You wouldn’t believe what she wants if for !!!!
It is disgusting for Truth_Seek_Wand,
It used to be a BATON !!!!  She wants to turn it back !!
  I will NEVER, NEVER , make WIZARD if that happens !!!

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By rico, suave, July 10, 2010 at 5:48 am Link to this comment

Good luck with this thread ardee, Inherit the Wind and PatrickHenry. moonraven and ofer have really poisoned the well.

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By ofersince72, July 10, 2010 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

This will be my last post Ardee,

It is not a personal attack on you, you write some
very thoughtful posts at times, I can come up with
your support for the Party, but nevermind that.

  There isn’t a bone sweet enough that the Democrats
have to offer to get my support again.
  Any American that votes for either party anymore is
part of the problem.  I , and I am sure many others can
go back at least forty years of hope with the Democrats
only to be crapped on time after time, so we don’t have
any more time, it is over…....and so is comment time..
Leave me alone ,,,and I will leave you alone….
I hate so much when I get drawn into name calling, I
avoided for six months…...
You can’t and you won’t find one lie on TD by me..
So long Ardee,  I will repeat, good luck and good health
be with you and may all the Greek and Native American
Gods be with you.

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By ofersince72, July 10, 2010 at 3:56 am Link to this comment

Ardee,  there are several women on TD,
      and   several others…....

      That will totally agree with you
      how stupid I am…........

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By ofersince72, July 9, 2010 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

Ardee,

  I could have been a star in the movie “THE JERK”

  or in the movie “DUMB AND DUMBER”
  (i would have been the dumber)

  But I have never been a liar !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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By G.I.Moe, July 9, 2010 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oliver Stone? That’s the genius who claims It was the cookie monster who ate all of JFK’s cookies before killing him, right?
*****************************************************
I wouldn’t trust this Hollywood nut-job to tell me the time!

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By ofersince72, July 9, 2010 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment

??????????

  from me to you.

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By ofersince72, July 9, 2010 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

I am still not going to make any political comments
though Ardee, just respond to your accusations.
and some #s for you.
99—0   Senate
408-8   House

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By ofersince72, July 9, 2010 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

I just think you missed me Ardee,  lets kiss and
make up

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By ofersince72, July 9, 2010 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

I don’t believe “others” need you to point out anything
about me…..they are mature Ardee, about all of them
pretty damn smart.

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By ofersince72, July 9, 2010 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

Name the political lie hotshot !!!!!

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By ardee, July 9, 2010 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

ofersince72, July 9 at 4:22 pm

You have never, not once, been truthful here, thus I never for one moment believed that lying bit of garbage. I only posted that countdown to make others aware of your bull.

Further, while you think I am bothered by your continual reference to my “shilling” for the Democratic Party, it is simply further proof of your worthlessness and disrespect for honest debate and truth in posting. I have asked in the past and do so once again..find me one such post in which I supported the Democratic Party, just one…P.S. dont scratch your head, splinters hurt.

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By ofersince72, July 9, 2010 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment

P.S. Smartee Ardee,  I will keep to my promise not to
make anymore political comment on TD for a good while,
however I did change my mind and kept my ISP, for I found
many more Democrat Supporters that needed an education.
They need to be made aware that the party does not stand
for the ideals that they believe, but is nothing more
than a racist, fascist, nazi organization and that they
can’t reform this organization to the ideals that they
believe it should represent by voting for them….
(I will give you my server Phone # and you can ask them)
so for you, I wrote a very intellectual poem….

There once was a man named Smartee Ardee
Who was but a shill for the Democrat Pardee
It became such a trap
to try to sell their crap
That now is breathe is like a fartee

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By moonraven, July 9, 2010 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

It happens that I was runner-up in the Washington State Spelling Bee in 1962, so I suppose I can spell a lot of words.

Since I became bilingual in Spanish as well about 20 years ago, I can also spell C-U-L-E-R-O, L-A-M-B-I-S-C-O-N, D-E-R-E-C-H-I-S-T-A, F-A-S-C-I-S-T-A and a host of exciting forms taken from the verb C-H-I-N-G-A-R.

And of course, the standard: tu M-A-D-R-E.

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By ofersince72, July 9, 2010 at 10:17 am Link to this comment

Dear Smartee Ardee,

  I kept my end,  why do you continue to make an ass
out of yourself?
  by the way Mr Democrat suckass,

  Senate 99—0
  House 408 - 8

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By ardee, July 9, 2010 at 3:04 am Link to this comment

ofersince72, July 4 at 2:10 am

July 4th…But didnt you specifically note that you had canceled your ISP effective as of July 1st? You don’t mean to show that your words are worthless do you?

If its any consolation I never once thought you were truthful, in this or anything else!

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By Inherit The Wind, July 8, 2010 at 9:27 pm Link to this comment

moonraven, July 8 at 4:48 pm #

(sic) for should be “meanspirited”, like its author, inherit the windbag.
*******************************

I’m so glad you are such a fine person that you never engage in personal attacks.

(can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E? Sure you can!)

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By moonraven, July 8, 2010 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment

(sic) for should be “meanspirited”, like its author, inherit the windbag.

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By moonraven, July 8, 2010 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment

Sorry, pal:

Your post is nothing but a personal attack.

Although mean-spiritedness, at base it is just frivolous and envious.

I did not say Spain was a dictatorship, but that of course is not for lack of trying on the part of the PP falangists.

Why not go there to look for work?  Maybe your buddy the crackpot king can find something for you to do.

I hear footmen wearing livery are his preference—only young ones, of course….

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By Inherit The Wind, July 8, 2010 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment

What an amazing world you live in!  I’m sure glad don’t have to live in it.  To you, Spain is a dictatorship and Chavez’s Venezuela is a bastion of freedom and openness.

Wow! I’m speechless in the face of your geniusness (self-proclaimed as I remember)!

I forgot: Are you also a concert violinist and a Kung Fu 10th degree Black Belt?  Which Nobel Peace Prize was yours?

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By moonraven, July 8, 2010 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

You have obviously spent very little time in Spain—nor do you keep up with the situation there.

The fascist party still controls almost everything—including the capital city—despite being apparently chucked out after lying about the bombazo in the metro, trying to blame it in the ETA.

Chema Rebuznar—cut from the physical and ideological pattern of Franco—not only actively sabotages any progress Eodriguez Zapatero has tried to make using a center-right version of socialism (sic) which doesn’t differ a whole lot from the falangist fascism of Rebuznar, but he bounces around Latin America braying his hatespeech for anything left of Franco and Pinochet policies here.

With unemployment right around 25% Spain will be back in the PPP fold in the next elections—and then will REALLY be fucked.

When there is democracy in Spain I will be the first to celebrate it. 

I will also celebrate when the half-wit JC passes on to prepare for his next lifetime of karmic payback.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 7, 2010 at 7:55 pm Link to this comment

Moonraven:
You continue to combine your arrogance with your ignorance and it makes you look like a pompous idiot:

“As for the King of Spain helping the poor—you have gotta be kidding!!!!!!!!!  The halfwit was installed by the dictator Franco to continue the political policies of the fascists.  “

Half-wit?  Juan Carlos pulled off the biggest con of the century and he did it for his people! Franco handed J-C ABSOLUTE power and what did J-C do with it? Used it to convert Spain into a modern, European democracy—exactly the OPPOSITE of what Franco intended!  He boded his time for decades, waiting and planning.  Then, in November of 1975, he could start implementing his plan.

Less than 5 years after F-F croaked, his former officers were SO upset by J-C’s reversal of “everything Franco” they staged a coup and demanded Juan Carlos stand with them.

He refused, saying Spain was now a democracy. The coup collapsed and Juan Carlos reigns as constitutional monarch, having ceded HIS power to the people.

How many men are handed absolute power and either reject it or use it to build a democracy?  I can think of three:  George Washington, Nelson Mandela and King Juan Carlos.

Yeah, there’s a half-wit around here….and he just posts stupider and stupider stuff.  Stuff so stupid I find myself in rare agreement with Patrick Henry!

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By moonraven, July 6, 2010 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

PH:

You make me laugh!

The Catholic Church helped poor Venezuelans!!!????  Sure the hell is news to me.  The Catholic Church all over Latin America made SLAVES of the indigenous folks and became the largest landowners in the region.  Here in Mexico, in the middle of the 19th century an heroic indigneous president, Benito Juarez, promulgated the Reform Laws which confiscated the properties of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church itself has done nothing for the poor.  Liberation Theology priests in Latin America were defrocked and excommunicated because they tried to prioritize helping the poor instead of bleeding them dry.

As for the King of Spain helping the poor—you have gotta be kidding!!!!!!!!!  The halfwit was installed by the dictator Franco to continue the political policies of the fascists. 

I don’t know where you get these crazy ideas, PH.  Maybe you need to spend some time in Latin America and read something about its history.  You could start be reading Galeano’s THE OPEN VEINS OF LATIN AMERICA—the book Chávez gave to Obomba which I am sure he promptly tossed into the nearest trash can.

Meanwhile, since you are so gullible, you can start making payments on one of my two remaining oceanfront lots in Nebraska!

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By PatrickHenry, July 6, 2010 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

MR, thanks for the spelling correction but you obviously knew what I meant.

I think what Chavez has done for his people is significant, however as his terms of office have been extended I have noticed his rhetoric has increased against the Catholic church and foreign leaders like Juan Carlos of Spain.  Both of which helped Venezuelan poor long before Chavez came around.

He will inevitably hurt the people, “your” people and you will cheer him on.

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By moonraven, July 6, 2010 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

PH:

1.  Reins of power.  Not reigns.

2.  I see absolutely no connection between your comment or the link you posted with “divisive rhetoric” or with how it has jeopardized venezolanos.  My comment referenced Millennium Goals, primarily.

3.  You love “your” country—that rogue state founded on the cornerstones of genocide against my people and slavery?  Term limits or the lack of them are the least of the problems—loving evil is a big one.

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By PatrickHenry, July 6, 2010 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment

Moonraven, I love my country but hate our government especially those in it who refuse to pass the reigns of power.  No matter how good their intentions are, power ultimately corrupts.

The seniority system in our congress allows the senile legislators from other states to impact laws beneficial to mine and vice versa.

But I digress,

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/
item/20090215_no_more_term_limits_
for_venezuelas_chavez/

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By moonraven, July 6, 2010 at 4:13 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry—geez I hate patriots—patriotism is the refuge of scoundrels, after all.

Please give a shot at explaining just HOW Chavez’s “devisive (sic) rhetoric” undoes poverty reduced by 50%, illiteracy erradicated and the Millennium Goals met.

Maybe you should start a fight with the UN?

¡Viva Chávez!

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By PatrickHenry, July 6, 2010 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

Aaron, reminds me of the old saying about how power corrupts.  Look at our own congress.

I wish term limits were universal.

I still see Chavez as having made a positive impact on the Venezuelan people but with all the devisive rhetoric by him, he is undoing that progress.

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By Aaron Ortiz, July 6, 2010 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment

When you attack me by putting words in my mouth, you are actually proving
yourself wrong. I am not promoting mindless acceptance of both sides of an
issue…that is simply not possible. It is illogical.

What I am promoting is that everyone humbly accept that no one has a
monopoly on truth, and those who do not challenge their beliefs are in greatest
danger of error.

You mention Fox News with such hatred that you would have very great trouble
listening to or understanding their points of view. You take it for granted that
they are lying, because they have a different perspective than yours. It seems
that you consider trying to think like them would be torture.

But it is exactly what needs to be done if we are to become enlightened. When
we know our enemy profoundly, and also ourselves, when we know the
weaknesses in our own arguments and the strengths in those of our
opponents, then we can say we are impartial. Then we can look for truth.

Now I turn to Mr. Chavez. Unfortunately, he has lowered the level of intellectual
discourse to simple “mindless” loyalty. He has turned against people who were
once his staunchest supporters like Raul Baduel, for instance, who is in jail now,
after being the man who put Chavez in power again after the 2002 coup.

He doesn’t care more about truth, than about loyalty. I literally mean what I say,
I am not saying this as an insult. He is a megalomaniac. Again this is not meant
as an insult. I mean the word in all its meaning, I dislike using words only for
their connotation. This means that those near him are now a crowd of yes-men
only. This is extremely dangerous for leaders. “Remember thou art mortal”.

As many Latin Americans, I first admired Chavez, but when I began to hear his
words and see the disrespect he had for his own integrity, changing his stance
blatantly and without apology, I saw that this man for what he is: an extremely
intelligent, ambitious and egotistical leader. He is a very warm person, with an
electrifying personality. But he is as morally flawed as any human being. Please,
no hagiographies!

I am now extremely disgusted with the left-right-democrat-republican, cold
war mentality that is the source of much bile and wasted words. It is not about
communism, Marx, Engels, Adam Smith, FDR, Reagan, Obama, Bush, Lenin, or
Bolivar, it’s about greed, lies, hubris, power and human suffering.

We need justice, not politics. We waste our time with hatred and fighting. We
are fighting the wrong enemy. A house divided cannot stand.

Thus, a documentary that does not challenge both sides, is not a documentary,
it is propaganda. A demonization of Chavez would also be propaganda. A true
documentary would examine both sides of the issue, present evidence, and
leave judgement for each person.

Unfortunately, neither Chavez nor his critics would like to see such a film. It
would force them to challenge themselves.

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By moonraven, July 5, 2010 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

rico,

I am too bored by your silly questions and comments.

You are just here to do yourself, and you can keep doing that without trying to cover it by engaging me.

I am off to get some fine Mexican food.

Have fun.

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By rico, suave, July 5, 2010 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

moon:

No, I don’t post opinions by opponents as if they are fact. I posted a quote by the Mayor of Caracas. Period. I don’t know whether he’s lying or not. But he IS the mayor, and has at least some standing to know what he’s talking about.

I was last in Venezuela in 2005. We used dollars, of course, and they were gladly accepted. Of course.

Why the exchange controls? Is Chavez hiding something?

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By moonraven, July 5, 2010 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment

rico,

You post opinions by Chavez opponents as if they were fact.

They are not.

The Bolivar is anything but worthless—but you do not have access to any because they are not traded where you are—there is, and has been, control de cambio since early 2003.

I think I can see from here what you have in your….wheelbarrow. 

A big load of propaganda.

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By rico, suave, July 5, 2010 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment

“By establishing the exchange rate at 4.3 [from 2.15]bolivars per dollar, the quality of life for Venezuelans is automatically devalued since we now have half the money we had before,” said Caracas Mayor Antonio Ledezma, a Chavez opponent.

Opposition parties, emboldened by public dissatisfaction at frequent blackouts and water shortages and a 2.9 percent economic contraction in 2009, hope to strip Chavez of his legislative majority in September.

The devaluation is embarrassing for Chavez…”
(from WSJ, Jan 9, 2010)

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By rico, suave, July 5, 2010 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment

moon:

At least you recognize the worthlessness of the bolivar.

And my “Rubik’s Cube probability” calculation tells me it will be worth even less next year as Chavez’s revolution chugs along.

I can swing by the local airport with my wheelbarrow and pick some up at the currency exchange.

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By moonraven, July 5, 2010 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

Nope, gringo:  dollars—your currency.  I want you to suffer.  Remember that you correctly surmised that I do not take prisoners….

You have no access to Bolivares anyway, kid.

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By rico, suave, July 5, 2010 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

moon:

Can I pay you in Bolivars? Maybe at next year’s exchange rate?

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By rico, suave, July 5, 2010 at 11:47 am Link to this comment

moon:

Of course I remember Rubik’s Cube. But what is “Rubik’s Cube probability”?

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By moonraven, July 5, 2010 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

rico doesn’t remember the Rubik’s Cube?

You must be 12 years old and posted your dad’s mug shot here.

That’s 150 bucks, BTW, that you owe me.

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By rico, suave, July 5, 2010 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

moonraven:

I never said you claimed that an SA team would WIN the cup, just that you thought the “Rubik’s cube probability” whatever the hell that is, was a proxy for SAs ascendancy. Of course Europe once again kicked their ass, which fact, by your logic, exposes Europe’s neo-colonialist tendencies.

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By moonraven, July 5, 2010 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

rico:

You lie again—guess you just cannot help yourself.

I have never posted anything about South America winning the World Cup—I simply mentioned that out of all the HOW MANY ARE THERE NOW? nations on the planet, 50% of the 8 teams in the quarter finals were from South America.

Not Rubik’s Cube probabilities, but still very statistically significant.

Actually, my bets are on Germany to win—not much money though as futbol really doesn’t interest me.

I will send you a bill for the Spanish class.

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