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Arts and Culture

June Gloom With Lewis Lapham

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Posted on Sep 2, 2011
Illustration by Mr. Fish

By Mr. Fish

There is always smoke around Lewis Lapham, as if he’d just been conjured by some sorcerer suddenly enraged by the placation of the status quo and alarmed by the myopia of contemporary culture and the rabid asininity of 21st century political discourse. The smoke, of course, is not supernatural, but rather comes from the Parliament Lights that Lapham has been smoking for decades. Like the man himself, who is never outside of the pressman’s dark suit and tie, they hark back to a time when professionalism was decidedly masculine-chic and personal freedoms, even unhealthy ones, trumped the bullying demands, even the healthy ones, of the dominant culture.

I began reading him as a teenager in 1984, while working at a drugstore after school in southern New Jersey. Harper’s Magazine, with Lapham as the newly reinstated editor, had just undergone a redesign and his monthly “Notebook” column, always constructed with the care and meticulous attention to detail usually associated with those working with either scalpels or explosives, was one of the things that made me want to grow up to become an insufferable and excessively well-read know-it-all. Contrary to his academic lineage, Lapham impressed me, and still does, as the most plainspoken public intellectual ever produced by the blue-blooded coupling of Yale and Cambridge, a feat deserving of real praise if only because similar Ivy League inbreeding has been known to produce great litters of erudite ninnies and putrid snobs.

Anyway, I recently came across an interview that I’d conducted with Lapham in 2008, just as the economic crisis was beginning to unfold its magnificent class-conscious talons and just before Barack Obama was swept triumphantly into the Oval Orifice. It was only months after the launch of his post-Harper’s publication, Lapham’s Quarterly, a themed literary journal that relies on the rigorous mining of world history, both ancient and present-day and everything in between, for its content. The conversation was supposed to be about the death of the mid-20th century counterculture and whether it had been homicide or suicide that’d killed it, and it was, or at least it started out that way, but the cacophony of current events eventually had the better of us and our talk quickly became early 21st century prophesying. We spoke for an hour and a half at Lapham’s then-new offices in lower Manhattan, the two of us sequestered inside a tiny glass room in the corner of a much larger office populated by editors and their editorial assistants. As if he were representative of a rare and nearly extinct bird, his office felt like an aquarium that had been designed to allow the Lewis-icus laphamogatus to live out its final years in an environment best suited to its comfort and joy, meaning that the great tar and nicotine aroma that hung in the air like silt was being churned continuously by a refrigerator-sized air conditioner that roared like a riding mower and cooled the room with all the efficiency of a half-eaten popsicle that is waved through the air.

That said, what follows is a sampling of what we talked about that June afternoon, his voice as clear as a bell on the recording, mine compromised somewhat by General Electric and the helicopter gunship that the good general rode through my entire transcription. Luckily, the notes that I took during my discussion with Lapham, plus the questions that I prepared before our meeting, were able to fill in where necessary.

Fish: Assuming that you recognize the same shift in the American culture that I do, namely that members of the artistic community—specifically those writers and philosophers and painters and poets most committed to exploring the perplexing and fascinating vagaries of our human identity—are no longer encouraged to participate in the national debate about who we are as a nation and what our responsibilities might be to our own moral and humanitarian ideals, all political avocations be damned. In other words, where are the modern day Picassos and Voltaires and Mailers and Twains?

Lapham: I think that what’s happened is that we have a new language. My answer comes out of Marshall McLuhan—McLuhan publishes “Understanding Media” in 1964 and makes the point that we shape our tools and our tools shape us and he sees the shift from print to the electronic media as a revolution in the settled political aesthetic order. Now his observations from 1964 have simply become more and more apparent and seemingly more prescient as time has gone by. He recognized that television is not a medium that lends itself to philosophy, literature or even straightforward narrative.

Fish: Nor does it provide a stopping point for contemplation, which is the only way [that people have] of deepening their understanding of things.

Lapham: Right—with the electronic media there is no memory, it’s always the eternal present, which is constantly dissolving and contributing to a great social anxiety.

Fish: The electronic media has also forced people to become much more private and much less engaged in the community and, therefore, much less politically active. For example, consider the difference between Jon Stewart and somebody like Mort Sahl. Back in the early ’60s, if you wanted to see Mort Sahl you had to congregate with other people in a public space and that takes a certain amount of bravery because you’re visibly aligning yourself with a specific point of view. Not only that, whenever you congregate in a public space you’re making a statement—a political statement, even, given the stuff that Sahl was talking about—with your body and because there are other bodies then the statement is substantial because it is amassed. Conversely, when you watch Jon Stewart you are not in public, you’re in your house—you don’t even need to be wearing pants!—and your dissent is not amassed. You pose no threat to the dominant culture because all you’re doing is watching television. It’s the same thing as wearing a T-shirt from the Gap that has a peace sign on it and thinking that you’re part of the peace movement, even though you’ve done absolutely nothing of any real significance for the cause. In fact, you’ve just gone shopping and given money to a corporation that your peace sign speaks contrary to.

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By Peter Menkin, September 8, 2011 at 11:20 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mr. Lapham is always interesting when interviewed, and certainly to read. It isn’t surprising to me that I again enjoyed another piece interviewing the man. In fact, as a Religion Writer, I wrote an article about Mr. Lapham and his new quarterly, “Lapham’s Quarterly,” and this is the link:

http://www.religiousintelligence.org/churchnewspaper/blogs/laphams-quarterly-a-look-at-lewis-h-laphams-new-magazine-usa/

A friend sent me an email with this interview, and I thought to subscribe to the newsletter, too, after reading it. I did want to read more of what he had to say about the new internet writing work, even the social media. Nonetheless, I can’t go too far wrong hearing again about Marshall McLuhan, a favorite of my youth (I turn 65 in October, 2011). When I met Mr. Lapham, who visited me in my home around 1982 or so to talk some writing business about his Harper’s column, I was delighted with the handsome and so gracious Mr. Lapham. This was north of San Francisco, and at the time I did hold the title, Contributing Editor. I did not think of him as an alternative journalist, a dissenter, but mostly as a fine writer and even great editor of his generation. I found him though a plutocrat, genuinely able to relate to others not of his class, of course. What else to expect of a man who listens so well.

Probably, for me, what was in its way a kind of spellbinding attraction to his regular Harper’s magazine column and that he always had something to say, and said it well, was that he continued the tradition of Harper’s as a first rate literary magazine. No small feat, itself. I also had the acquaintance, this time in my 20s and youth, of William Whitworth who left The New Yorker for The Atlantic. The two magazines in those years of the 80s ceased being sister magazines. An event I personally mourned, but Mr. Lapham sought. Mr. Whitworth, as most will agree, is another of his generation’s great editors (and in case you didn’t know, he is a fine writer, too. Something of a loss for us all when he chose not to write, but be solely an editor).

I want to add that I learned a lot from William Whitworth, who was willing to talk about being a writer and writing. Even so, I was kind of desirous to learn from Mr. Lapham of such things, too, and think it was an important opportunity in my life for which I am grateful. His acquaintanceship and even loyalty of friendship is more than admirable, it is an esteemed characteristic.

So I dash off these personal notes to say that Mr.Lapham’s willingness to help writers, allow himself to be interviewed (when I think he, too, finds a learning and broadening experience in the act) is always something I’ve looked forward to. Thanks Mr. Fish. Good job. I only wish it went on longer and wonder how much time you both had together in the interview work itself.

Peter Menkin
Mill Valley, CA USA
(north of San Francisco)

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miroslav's avatar

By miroslav, September 6, 2011 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment

Gaseous b.s. from both Lapham and his
interviewer.

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By Mike789, September 5, 2011 at 4:07 am Link to this comment

A Lapham fan myself, since 1984, I’ll echo the commentators who were looking forward to an article featuring his trenchant wit and were met with Fish rap.

One redeeming notion dealt with “self-preservation”. Too bad Fish had not mentioned, in context, the Jungian notion that there be two major archetypes driving human behavior; Presevation of the Self and Preservation of the Species. They are not necessarily contervailing though I’m inclined to see a pernicious polarity in the emphasis of one over and above the other.

The idea of a “big idea” may have weight, but it has to be made convincing. Language does make a difference but the communicator is more important. TVA, InterState Hwy and Space were brought to the fore by unique communicators.

What is blatantly obvious is the contemporary penchant for communicating a systematic debunking of science and people believe it. The notion that the the media isolates the individual to my thinking ignores the source. Media, at it’s inception, was touted as an educational tool. We all know that notion has, for the most part, been usurped. It is not the forum, with the exception of C-SPAN, it could be. It’s not the arrow, it’s the indian.

Century-scaled projects will not be hailed by the Republicans who will not aknowledge the place of government. Private sectors will not converge to make them happen. Texas is burning, East coast flooding, and not a word of H2O has a fundamental resource to be managed on a grand scale. A pipe-line from the tar sands will get right of way legislation while the back-bone to a modern electical grid is back-burnered.

We’ve bought into the idea of a service-based economy where everybody has an idolated cozy cubicle with an e-mail address and a Twitter account when out on the street. These devices are nice and trendy but do not build barricades on K-Street, the actual source of over-spending. To a certain, we’re following the path of least resistance and it’s our own doing. We could organized product boycotts but we do time coordinatied choreographed dance routines en masse at Grand Central Station.

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By zonth_zonth, September 4, 2011 at 11:51 pm Link to this comment

good discussion/interview.  Much better than the usual stream of consciousness fictional nonsense.

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By RobtOakley, September 4, 2011 at 5:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mr. Lapham hopes for some new big idea…? To some extent why isn’t “Do Unto
Others as you would have them do unto you” a big enough idea? Why re-invent
the wheel? Do we need to reinvent the wheel?

The maxim really does simplify things, and deepens them as well.

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By Queenie, September 3, 2011 at 5:31 pm Link to this comment

When my Harpers used to be delivered I couldn’t wait to get to a quiet place to read Lewis Lapham. Although we are worlds apart in class and education, I could always understand what he was saying. He seemed to speak in a universal voice that encompassed all human understanding. He probably still does although I haven’t read him since he left Harpers. My loss. I would love to ask him about his thoughts about the environment, post Fukshima Daiichi, and if the half life of the radiation spilling from those meltdowns doesn’t rate as the catastrophe he speaks about.

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By Robert LaRue, September 3, 2011 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Too much Fish, not enough Lapham.

How is it interviewers think that their readers want to hear from them instead of
their subjects?

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By Gordy, September 3, 2011 at 4:40 am Link to this comment

A new big idea will enable a further act in the drama
that is unenlightened civilisation, but we will then
need something even bigger and more sophisticated
still when the next crisis arises, like a
dysfunctional person moving onto stronger and
stronger drugs, more and more persuasive illusions,
and ever crueller hypocrasies, each time he hits
rock-bottom. Myths are evasions of cold reality, but
reality isn’t really cold - it just is. A life lived
without illusion, in contact with that unvarnished
reality, is not an attitude, aesthetic or philosophy,
is not, in external manifestation, the same for
everyone, and cannot be a banner for the masses to
unite under, because it can’t be reduced to a slogan,
idea or marketing message.

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By Beth, September 3, 2011 at 1:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I had hoped that the ever-increasing impacts of radical climate change(a.k.a. Global Warming)would be an irresistible big new idea embraced by humankind.

As the impacts are global, impersonal, and do not discriminate in any fashion, is the effort to prevent potential global calamity worthy of jumping to Topic of the Year? Implementing needed changes creates millions of jobs! Kismet!

We will all be affected. We are all able to participate in the attempts to decrease and prevent further and greater destruction. Perhaps it will take a few billion dollars more and forced relocation for millions more before reality truly has our undivided attention.

Call it misplaced faith in humankind, or an indulgence in optimism, but I think humans are up to this challenge. I see the incredible opportunities offered by international communication. Live satellite feeds and broadcasting, and the myriad methods used by almost all segments of Human Society for creating working and social relationships worldwide are putting the lie to the old fears of “foreigners”. Witnessing of official government and despotic behaviors, global discernment of acceptability or unacceptability as a Whole- a United Nations at Large- is a gamechanger. The fact that We COULD, If We CHOOSE institute global warming offset projects in a coordinated world-wide effort IS the “new big idea” referred to by Mr.Lapham in my opinion.

The fact that we are still indulging in wasting money, lives, and finite resources such as oil in an agony of misdirected human energy makes my skin crawl. We humans have a global energy transition to make. The developed countries are by definition those responsible for consciously altering the course of human development in this matter. We’ve created the problem.

In America we watch the impacts of Hurricane Irene and Tropical Storm Lee play out. We’ll see re-building in flood plains, not joint efforts to begin moving cities and towns inland and upland.

The Haboob dust storms of the Southwest may become the new “normal” as we steadfastly squander our water resources in order to live in regions never suited for human habitation. In the same breath we will develop nuclear waste sites over sensitive aquifers with no thought to the impacts on the health and lives of others, or we’ll poison the water with the impacts of mining or industry. We will not think preemptively in protecting or conserving our natural infrastructure and resources even now.

The super-cell storms, tornadoes, and hurricanes predicted by scientists decades ago are becoming our reality, and still we tolerate the for-profit Denialists and bow to the preferences of those so entrenched in their own habits of thinking that they refuse to make changes in their business processes. The abandonment, reform, or selective and limited use of toxic industries is needed.

We are now seeing the stumbling and financially neglected growth of smaller scale, environmentally sound manufacturing and services in some nations. Those peoples not beset nor advantaged by the overwhelming use of modern technology, whose impacts are irrelevant in the grand scheme, are suffering exponentially as myriad islands face the loss of their beaches, trees, and fish.

Progress will be too slow as the young people attempt that which the powerfully positioned in our society could easily initiate and support were they of a mind to participate constructively.

In this new century, Time, not money has the greater value. Collective human wisdom and creative endeavor are required. It is horrifying that thousands are flooded out, millions flee war, hundreds of thousands suffer the horrors of starvation, vast regions of lands burn during drought. 

We need a global conscious effort. We need to coordinate, cooperate, use money to progress, and technology to assist us in living sustainably on this planet. Quickly.

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By cpb, September 2, 2011 at 10:29 pm Link to this comment

I neglected to credit the quote that opened my last post - my bad - it was the entirety of recemt post by ‘still trying’.

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By News Nag, September 2, 2011 at 10:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

We may need ideas and activists or whatever, but here we need Mr. Fish to just shut up and let his interviewees talk.  Sheesh, his every interview is an elocution of his fears and recasting of his introspectory insights.  It’s not that I disagree with Mr. Fish.  It’s just that he needs to open up his own interviews for dissent and other streams of consciousness than his own.  Mr. Fish dominates where he should be recessive and entirely misses what could be fascinating tours des force from his interviewees.  It’s a nice trick he pulls, and pulls it well, but it’s a one-trick punting on the art of the interview.

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By cpb, September 2, 2011 at 10:19 pm Link to this comment

“We need something more than a new idea; we need people who are capable of thinking, sharing, feeling compassion, and taking responsibiliy for saving their world.”

Isn’t that sweet.

An honest examination of the global human condition would conclude that what we are lacking isn’t thought, sharing, feeling or compassion.  There is no ‘lack of compassion’ in this world, only the ugly truth that power diminishes compassion, holds it at arms length if forced to acknowledge it at all, and denies it at every opportunity.

Paraphrase:  We need people willing to take responsibility for saving their world..

Yes, we certainly do.  And there are peeps all over this beach ball struggling to do just that.  We just don’t hear much about them via the conventional channels. 

The same power that restricts the latter restricts the former.  Concluding that ‘nobody cares’ is just defeatist denial.  Understandable, but denial nontheless.

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By cpb, September 2, 2011 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment

“God save us from the fluous people.”

- Cripes

Fluous?  Really?  From urban dictionary:  fluous   n. the required or sufficient amount; without excess. (from fluere: to flow, in Indo-European roots)

eg.  I will do only the fluous amount of work neccessary to acheive a passing grade for this class.

Again I call troll.

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By cripes, September 2, 2011 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

God save us from the fluous people.

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By still trying, September 2, 2011 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

We need something more than a new idea; we need people who are capable of thinking, sharing, feeling compassion, and taking responsibiliy for saving their world.

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By abikecommuter, September 2, 2011 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

Any solution needs to answer how. Do we suspend habeous corpus and rules against
torture to spill blood for our oil under their sand? To say that tribal solutions are anarchist
presupposes the violence of the present methodology as a means to acquire energy for
how we will feed ourselves and boxes in the concept of community. Food niches
coevolve with language and the articulated worldview.

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By kerryrose, September 2, 2011 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

A good interview is when the ideas of the person being interviewed are brought to light by insightful questions and good listening.  To acheive this, an interviewer must be more interested in the person he is interviewing, his ideas and motivations, than in his own ideas.

Mr Fish should watch some of the pros if he is truly interested in conducting interviews.  He may be more interested in using another person for masturbation, however.

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By gerard, September 2, 2011 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

Seriously, (IMO) Mr. Fish contributes more to this “interview” than the great Lapham (whose essays I always found both thought-provoking and very well-written).

Here, Mr. Fish seems to take leadership in a way that causes me to suggest that he delete Mr. Lapham in this instance and re-cast this piece as his own essay.  Then do another more “authentic” and gracious interview where he doesn’t upstage the person he is interviewing.

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By felicity, September 2, 2011 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

It was a black day when I read of the ‘retirement’ of
Lapham.  However, and Lapham would probably agree,
Harpers continues to publish thought-provoking
articles.  The August issue has an article, “The Age
of Enron,” - “grotesque bonuses for insiders;” “a
fawning press;” “bought politicians;” “average people
fleeced by scheming predators.”  Enron may be out of
business but the ‘business’ of Enron continues, in
fact seems to be gaining in clout should Republicans
have their way.

And, if McLuhan thought television was a vast
wasteland way back when, what would he think now that
it is no longer even fit for human consumption.

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By john Poole, September 2, 2011 at 10:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Even if a scenario evolves where one inherits the earth as an educated humble
person (one of the meek) one is still going to ponder the idea of a transcended
existence.  The Scrolls of Thoth won’t help much now nor will the Bible. We’ll create
another transcendent fiction to get us through out of an instinct for self
preservation.

Thanks to Fish and Lapham. They are doing good things. That is the best
contribution I can hope for.

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By Anarcissie, September 2, 2011 at 6:39 am Link to this comment

I don’t know if Jesus taught that all human beings had value.  The meek were to inherit the earth, yes, but only the good meek.  The bad meek were to be cast into the Lake of Fire.  In any case, after many centuries of Christianity, it turned out (as recounted in The Cunning of History, the most important book you never read) that a lot of human beings are superfluous, indeed, a burdensom excess to be shrugged off.  As Mr. L notes, it’s not a new thing—the Black Death and, later, world-wide imperialism and the colonization of the Americas saved Western Civ.

So should we just get on with it, or count on our little friends, the ever-mutating bacteria?  I’m sure they’ll come up with something impressive if we keep throwing Lysol on them.

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