Top Leaderboard, Site wide
July 25, 2014
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
Help us grow by sharing
and liking Truthdig:
Sign up for Truthdig's Email NewsletterLike Truthdig on FacebookFollow Truthdig on TwitterSubscribe to Truthdig's RSS Feed

Newsletter

sign up to get updates


Climate Data Shows Clear Signs of Warming
Dead Is Dead: Drone-Killing the Fifth Amendment




War of the Whales


Truthdig Bazaar
I Don’t Believe in Atheists

I Don’t Believe in Atheists

By Chris Hedges
$20.75

more items

 
Arts and Culture

‘Family Guy’ Creator Draws Parallels Between Arizona, Nazi Germany

Email this item Email    Print this item Print    Share this item... Share

Posted on May 3, 2010
MacFarlane
Flickr/Gage Skidmore

There, he said it: Seth MacFarlane, the mind behind the hit man-’toon “Family Guy,” courted controversy once again during a recent interview by comparing Arizona’s already infamous new immigration law to the Nazis’ notorious practice of demanding to see people’s “papers.”  —KA

Reuters via “Today”:

“It’s too much. It’s kind of a slap in the face, it’s not the way to handle it ... Nobody but the Nazis ever asked anybody for their papers,” MacFarlane told Reuters Television in an interview on Thursday.

“Walking down the street, a cop can come up to you and say ‘May I see your papers?’—I think they should be required to ask that question in German if the law sticks around,” he added.

Read more


New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 14, 2010 at 4:44 pm Link to this comment

I wish you would go into a little more detail concerning Ms Maddow‘s “misleading” comments and analysis. I just don’t see it.

I am sorry that the Republicans have purged so many of the moderates from their ranks leaving just autocrats and theocrats. Democrats are only slightly better because some of them still remain but not for much longer.

However I also disagree concerning http://www.talk2action.com because it shows that there is a definite authoritarian theocratic slant to many of these groups and organizations. Some of them are heavily bankrolled by some really heavy hitters. What do you think of Chip Berlet‘s brief analysis of the Dominionists in their variations and overlapping traits?

Can you point to one or more where you commented and they didn’t like it? did they warn you and delete you? If so I am disappointed and would like to see what you wrote. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)/ if you still have a copy.

However it is myself who see this as a more organized pattern to bring down the Republic and replace it with an American style theocratic corporate dominated nation-state. [They tried in 1934 and were just barely foiled but not punished at all.] That is what I see—so blame me for that. Not them.

Thank you for your compliment. One can’t learn and stretch if everyone agrees on everything. What a bore that would be.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, May 14, 2010 at 4:12 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt, if you will accept a compliment from me i give it to you: Your writing and logic are much sharper these days. Combine that with your persistance and it is a winning combination.

So I will concede that you were right. On the face of the information available, Arizona Republican State Sen. Russell Pearce is not someone I would vote for.

Besides, i dont like the concept of one state trying to fix illegal immigration. The only problem is I have not read the Arizona law and think we should know what we are talking about before branding it ‘fascist’. Of course Eric Holder is exempt from this rule. He can call it whatever he wants and threaten to send the feds in to sue the state of Arizona… without having a clue what he is talking about… because he is our Attorney General.

Labeling things as ‘fascist’ without a full hearing is a bad habit. Websites that promote bad habits, especially when they do not allow any diagreement or even any questions, is a website you ought not to visit. You know what i am talking about, Night-Gaunt? Its “Talk2action” or something like that.

Truthdig on the other hand allows all sorts of comment. That is why they are extremely cool.

As for Rachel Maddow, she is smirky and smug and misleading. Defend her if you like. Being a female has nothing to do with it, unless you think that her femininity provides her with a defense?

dissentispatriotic said: You call the Obama health care reform “Stalinist”. How is that factual or accurate?

You are right. It was neither. What you dont understand is that I did it on purpose. I was showing how foolish it is to attribute the fascism of one man to the Arizona legislation that was passed and signed. My counter example with the same type of illogical conclusion was meant to show how stupid it is to do that.

My remarks about Eric Holder today are in the vein. If i am not making it clear, ask me and I will explain it better.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 14, 2010 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

*The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA), also Simpson-Mazzoli Act
(Pub.L. 99-603, 100 Stat. 3359, signed by President Ronald Reagan on November
6, 1986) is an Act of Congress which reformed United States immigration law.
The Act made it illegal to knowingly hire or recruit illegal immigrants
(immigrants who do not possess lawful work authorization), required employers
to attest to their employees’ immigration status, and granted amnesty to
certain illegal immigrants who entered the United States before January 1,
1982 and had resided there continuously. The Act also granted a path towards
legalization to certain agricultural seasonal workers and immigrants who had
been continuously and illegally present in the United States since January 1,
1982.

All of these ideas are always hashed out during mid-term election years. The
reason IRCA did not solve the problem is because it was never enforced fully.
The idea was actually designed to convince Americans that brown people were
flooding across the border to steal their jobs and social services (sound
familiar?). Our government does not really WANT to solve this problem because
they are complicit in the exploitation of said workers.

Undocumented workers are not the enemy of the American people. Let’s all say
it together. Undocumented workers are not the enemy of the American people.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 14, 2010 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

PART I

There is so much misrepresentation surrounding this debate. In one of the
posts I read, “Arizona could have survived the relentless surge of illegal
immigrants”. While there always may be people trying to cross our southern
border, this clearly gives the impression that the number of undocumented
workers in the US is always on the incline, and that one day we will be
totally overrun. According to the Department of Homeland Security web-
site, under the INS immigration statistics tab, the number of undocumented
workers in this country has stayed fairly consistent since 2005(10.5
million in 2005). In fact, the overall number has declined by about one
million, since late 2007, in response to the economic downturn in the
US(10.8 million now). There is a point of maximum saturation consistent
with the number of jobs available. In addition, the US and Mexican border
is not the primary entry point for most of the undocumented workers
here(the #1 would be staying after a visa expired). Does this mean that
there is no public safety issue or debate to be had about border safety?
Of course not. It simply demonstrates that we are only arguing the most
controversial part of the debate, during this important mid-term election
year, and that fear is powerful.

The next most common misrepresentation would be that having the police ask
for an I.D. is no big deal or inconvenience if it is in the name of
national security(i.e. airport security). But imagine that you had to go
through airport security just to leave your house every single day of your
life. For many Latino American citizens this is a real and legitimate
fear. They are indistinguishable in appearance from targeted undocumented
populations so their civil rights will most certainly be put in jeopardy
should we implement gestapo style mass deportation. Just put yourself in
their shoes. “Detained” on the way to the store. Fingerprinted heading to
the gym. Arrested because you left your wallet at home and you LOOK and
sound like one of those damn “illegals”. The terms reasonable suspicion
and probable cause are already stretched for racial profiling. The Arizona
law simply gives carte blanche to law enforcement to interpret even more
loosely these already subjective definitions.

The third most common misrepresentation is that undocumented workers are
draining our economy by using social services and taking our jobs. The
terrible irony here is that it is we who are exploiting them as cheap
labor. By definition, an exploited population cannot be taking advantage
of the population exploiting them. Do the math for yourself. If there are
10.8 million undocumented workers here, that means that for every billion
dollars spent it breaks down to about $100 per person. For every 10
billion it would be about $1,000 per person and so on. The Center for
Immigration Studies reported in 2004: “Households headed by illegal aliens
imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002
and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of
almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household. Spread that $2,700
per year per household over all of the paychecks in each household and we
are still paying them less than we would a US citizen for the same job.
Making us the exploiters and them the exploited. Notice too that many
undocumented workers, visas expired or border crossers, are still paying
taxes. In 2004 about $16 billion worth. So amnesty and a CLEAR path to
citizenship for most of the people already here as well as serious
revision and lock down of our visa system may be the only way to bring
this problem under control. That would force employers to pay a
competitive American wage to all and we would be able to eliminate the tax
deficit.

CONTINUED…..

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 14, 2010 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

CONTINUED…PART II

Another big misrepresentation is that Latino immigrant communities are
characterized by drugs and violence. The Central American drug cartels
are a bi-product of our own failed drug policies. South American drugs
manufactured for the US market have put countries like Mexico and El
Salvador in the crossfire. While this does not excuse anyone who chooses
to commit violence against another, it is important cultural context. It
helps to dispel the xenophobic myth that drugs and crime are somehow
intrinsic to the Central American people or culture. People of all
ethnicities and cultures are equally capable of committing atrocities and
we are not without complicity in the Central American drug and gang
epidemic.

In conclusion, undocumented workers did break the law whether upon entry
or by staying after a visa expired. But that does not mean that it would
be healthy for our country to treat them like criminals through mass
deportation. They are human beings simply looking for a better life for
their families. They are hard workers, with valuable skills, who are
already contributing to this society in many positive ways. The debate
needs to be about our visa system and about what is a dignified and
humane way to address the population already here. In my opinion
indiscriminate mass deportation does not successfully address either in a
reasonable way. It will only cause us to cut off our own noses to spite
our face. It will violate the rights of many American citizens. It will
further exploit the exploited and split up families. It will increase
cultural and racial animosity and violence while driving a further wedge
between our two great cultures. It does not embody the spirit of the
constitution or liberty. Most importantly it will not solve the problem.

In addition, if we rebuild the Great Wall of China along our border
people will still find a way in(mostly through the cracks in our visa
system) and probably at the same rate that we can deport them. So let’s
forget this politically motivated attempt to scare Americans and address
this crucial issue with common sense and compassion.

Report this

By sesli sohbet, May 14, 2010 at 12:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Whether we’re on the road to Mussolini-type fascism or not, as practiced the Arizona law turns a basic premise underlying our entire judicial system on its head because in Arizona now one is assumed guilty (that’s why I stopped you) and then must prove his innocence (show me your papers.)

Should this anomalous practice ever find its way, granted insidiously, into our justice system eroding our innocent-until-proven-guilty principle, there lies the danger.

Report this

By JT Ready, May 10, 2010 at 1:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The secular state of Israel asks for papers down the barrel of machine guns of Palestinians every single day. Are the jews there “Nazis” too? The Hart-Cellar Act, which is clearly genocidal legislation agaist White Americans, is based upon race. Are the two jews who crafted it “Nazis” also? Before calling someone a name, perhaps you should first learn what the word even means.

Sad.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 7, 2010 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

William Thuther:

I just noticed your post and it was an excellent point from an
historical perspective. If we are drawing a direct correlation
between the Arizona controversy and the Nazi’s rise to power,
the Mexican’s would be the invading force. Only in this case the
“invaders” are not bent on genocidal murder. But instead they
are a skilled work force who will end up being exploited for the
financial gain of the invaded population.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 7, 2010 at 12:06 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt:

Thank you for clarifying that. That makes a little more sense. But is none
the less unsettling. Mostly I’m glad because this conversation has promoted
research that I would not have done otherwise.


OzarkMichael:

A blog post does not create history. None of this will be included in little
liberal textbooks. It is merely a conversation, and one that needs to
happen. Night-Gaunt clearly has his own political leanings, as do we all,
but the inaccuracies which you portray are also politically biased and
motivated. P.S. BLOG POSTS ARE USUALLY OPINION AND MOST PEOPLE UNDERSTAND
THAT!

You call the Obama health care reform “Stalinist”. How is that factual or
accurate? A communist or socialist health care system would denote that the
doctors and nurses were government employees. That every hospital is bought,
paid for and owned by the federal government. I don’t see any of that here.
In fact, it is not even a universal single payer system. There is not even a
voluntary public option. I don’t even see nationalization. We all still pay
for private insurance and going to private doctors and hospitals. The only
real difference is increased regulation of the private health insurance
industry. People in the socialist and communist movements are not out there
celebrating in the streets because “their” style of health care was passed
because IT WASN’T.

The bottom line is that we are one of the few nations in the world where a
citizen’s home can be foreclosed upon because of medical debt. We pay on
average $6000 per year per person in health care costs. Doubling the rate of
the country second in annual per person expenditures which is Sweden. At the
same time in the last few years we have fallen to 37th for quality of care
according to the World Health Organization. Even infant mortality has
actually been on the rise.

All of this is true because of our exclusionary privatized (it still is by
the way) health care system. It is actually the most expensive and often
inhumane way of doing business because the primary motivation is not a
healthier populace, but happier stock holders. This creates incentive to
deny care. And we all end up sharing each other’s financial burden anyway.

So we can continue to let 50 million people go without PREVENTATIVE care and
pay a much higher price for it in emergency rooms. Or we can do what the
Obama administration should have done and did not. Use the hundreds of
Billions of dollars that insurance companies and hospitals overcharge to
compensate for their losses from treating the uninsured and turn it into
cheaper preventative care for anyone who wants it. That does not mean
turning over hospitals to federal ownership. It simply means a lower cost
non-profit insurance pool into which anyone can PAY on a sliding scale. By
the way “free” healthcare does not exist. Everyone in the world who has
access pays for it through governmental or private entities.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 7, 2010 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/04/27/4210613-racist-roots-of-arizonas-immigration-law

I was in error it wasn’t the neo-Nazi J.T.Ready of the NSM (National Socialist Movement) it was another group “FAIR” (Federation For Immigration Reform)was behind Republican State Sen. Russell Pearce, a politician who was caught on tape hugging a neo-Nazi, J.T.Ready. It was Kansas lawyer Kris Kobach who was instrumental in writing it for FAIR through their legal arm, Immigration Reform Law Institute. (He is boasting about it on his web site and one of the hooks in his campaign.) FAIR has had close ties and was supported financially by the long time (70 years old) white supremacist Pioneer Fund. Not Nazis per se but they have much in common, too much for my taste. Are you aware of this Ozark Michael?

One of FAIR’s founders is John Tanton who is of the old school of fertility and race. For him he is of a separate race from those of darker complexion and doesn’t want them to come here multiplying & “stealing jobs” and “defecating and spreading garbage” when they come here to live. Even so he is still on their board of directors to this day.

So in essence I was correct just wrong in to whom to assign blame for this white supremacist, nativist, racist based legislation cum law. Only we see they can apply it to everyone in AZ! If you go there and don’t have proof of citizenship you can be arrested and fined. How does that sit with you? Who is smeared here? Arizona or the people? Then we can be more like Mexico.

As for Rachel Maddow is it her way of doing her show that bothers you more or just what its content is? Or its veracity? Or her gender? Or just that she is so cocksure?

Last that I recall Van Jones said he became a green Capitalist and never was a “Stalinist” ever.

President Obama has closer ties to Wall Street than to the likes of Van Jones, he received almost a million dollars from them during the last election. More than any one previously!

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, May 7, 2010 at 5:11 am Link to this comment

Regarding J.T. Ready and the smear of Arizona which the Truthdiggers here swallowed hook, line and sinker… how exactly was J.T. Ready ‘involved’ with crafting the legislation? He wasnt involved at all. But the smear is now firmly pasted into the sticky brains of the Left and now becomes ‘history’. Thank you Rachel Maddow and MSNBC.

Using the same logic, we now know for sure that the Obama administration is thoroughly Communist. After all, Van Jones was hired by Obama, and Van Jones “has a political agenda that is completely consistent with” the President. So we can say that The Health care legislation is Stalinist!

I dont expect much from Truthdiggers, but you are better than this, Night Gaunt. Whenever a sound bite appeals to your prejudice, take a minute to investigate it instead of accepting it as a ‘fact’. Especially from Rachel Maddow, Queen of Smug.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 7, 2010 at 3:43 am Link to this comment

maani:

I think our last interaction could have been more positive. I was not
responding to melpol in that manner simply because of a misspelled
word. I know that my grammar is not perfect. I responded to melpol that
way because of some bigoted remarks that were made. I was pointing out
the irony of people complaining about non-English speakers coming here
to work and then using the term “illegals” to describe them. The term
itself is improper and poor grammar creating an hypocrisy.

Report this

By William Thuther, May 6, 2010 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I thought the Nazis invaded other countries, not the other way around.

In this case it is Arizona that is being invaded so the Mexicans would actually be the Nazis invading a foreign country.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 6, 2010 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

Hulk2008:

Hilarious! In fact if we used the Arizona “logic” for our national
immigration laws we have to deport anyone who failed an English test.
I’m going to go ahead and venture a guess that that would be at least
two thirds of the nation. In fact there may be INS agents forced to
deport themselves.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 6, 2010 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

mel-pol:

I did not label you a racist. You identified yourself as one when
you expressed racist opinions. And I quote.

“Home owners are the main source of employment for wetbacks”.

“the illegals will continue to dance the cha cha”.

“There is a painter in town whom we call Speedy Gonzales. He spray
paints a house for only 150 bucks including the paint.”


Whether you want to admit it or not these statements promote racist
thought and behavior, which is the very definition of racism.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 6, 2010 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment

melpol:

I want to make a few observations about the following statement which you
posted earlier today on this thread.

“It is not objectionable to have a cop ask for an ID if they a searching
for a known individual. Totalitarianism rears its ugly head when that cop
is asking to find out if the suspect belongs to a certain class of people.
The border problem must be solved by the US and Mexican governments not by
thousands of racially profiling police.”

It is objectionable to have a cop ask for I.D. without probable cause. It’s
one of those constitutional things that are supposed to set our government
apart from a despotic dictatorship. The reason it doesn’t bother you is
because you are not regularly harassed to prove that you are a citizen. The
reason for that is because you are part of the privileged ruling class. It
is the poor class, as well as our brown and black brothers and sisters, who
are forced to suffer that indignity almost every day of their lives.
Besides a cop doesn’t have to probe to find out if you belong to a certain
class. They often just make that assumption based on your dress and skin
color.

The US and Mexican governments do not really want to solve what you call
“the border problem” (the Mexican US border is not the main entry point for
undocumented people. people staying on an expired work visa is) The US is
implicit because we get a lot of cheap labor. While Mexican nationals
working here send money home. So, don’t expect the Mexican government to be
the champions of this issue. It is US immigration policy at the heart of
this whole issue, but because it is so controversial and partisan there is
not likely a good solution in sight.

Report this
Hulk2008's avatar

By Hulk2008, May 6, 2010 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment

If the Arizona law were passed in Indiana, the police would have to check papers on most of the yahoos they stop on the roadways. 
    Rednecks obviously don’t read or understand English signage ..... especially speed limits, stop signs etc.
   
(Using the Arizona “logic”, wouldn’t the inability to read English be evidence of UN-American-ism ?)

Report this

By melpol, May 6, 2010 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

dissentispatriotic

Labeling me a racist is not fair. It leads me to believe that you misunderstood
what the word Misanthrope means. I am a Misanthrope, but not a racist, I have a
dislike for all people not only of one race. The expression “Illegals” was used by
me only as a shortcut for the bland and long words: Illegal Immigrants.  Illegals is
often used in news headlines as a space shortener, but I do agree that the word
“wetback” should not be used carelessly, because it dehumanizes an unfortunate
person. It is not my intention to be a politically correct writer but only a
stimulating one. Some have called me a TROLL.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 6, 2010 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt:

Thank you very much for reminding me that the Nazis committed many
atrocities under the guise of “National Socialism”. At first I was
baffled when I saw Tea Party signs that depicted Obama with a Hitler
mustache and the brand of “socialist”. I couldn’t figure out how they
got the idea that Nazis were socialist and that liberal capitalist
Democrats were Nazis.

Funny though that out here on the west coast there is a particularly flamboyant Libertarian cult who follow a guy named Larouche. They
table all over the city and readily display that same picture of Obama
with the mustache. One day out in front of a local grocer they were
physically attacked by a very old man. Turns out he was a holocaust
survivor and took great offense to their political propaganda.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 6, 2010 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Americans are anti-immigrant because the “rugged individualism” and “us
against them” ideologies are ingrained deeply into the American experience.
We have always been taught to hate one group of people or another.
Separating us from any real cultural identity, other than that of the
capitalist culture, creates a system which allows us all to contribute to
the exploitation of people in our families countries of origin and all
over the world without protest. It allows us to say things like,
“developing nation” rather than admitting that we are exploiting
people and hording resources.

Natural resources, and therefore monetary wealth, are finite.
That’s why the “developing” nations never graduate to “first world”
status. And it is definitely why we are all taught to hate and
mistrust “foreigners”.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 6, 2010 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

melpol:

I understand that you are frustrated by the deluge of political
correctness that plagues our media. But in previous posts you used
words like “wetback” and you said that Mexican immigrants would spray
paint a house really cheap. There is a difference between pushing the boundaries of political correctness and being a flaming racist. And
your posts have clearly indicated that you fall into the later category.

It is interesting though that so many people complain about non-
English speakers working here. Particularly when they say things like
Those “illegals” don’t even speak good English. I just want to say
this one more time. The word “illegals” does not appear in the English
dictionary. There is no plural for illegal because it is generally
used as a verb, adverb or adjective.

Report this

By melpol, May 6, 2010 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment

Website advertisers demand that all words must be politically correct and not offensive to a person that is over sensitive. Most websites have moderators that blackball malcontents and heretics, but their content is like food without a taste of spice.  I often search the Internet for websites used by angry writers and enjoy their blogs. It takes free speech to stimulate a Misanthrope and Libertarian such as myself.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 6, 2010 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

But then “National Socialism” was a convenient & misrepresentative name just as “Democratic-Republic of North Korea” is and just as valid. but then the right wingers like Glenn Beck make a big deal of it and use it to further their attacks on socialists and any kind of socialism for their propaganda purposes. [For them they say totalitarianism is only on the Left, not right. Another variant is that European infection of ideas that lead away from “American Values” to either extremes of Nazism or Communism.]

The hidden implication in the current law is that they can stop anybody for any reason including to see if you are an American citizen. Even natural born must have their papers—-driver’s license isn’t enough for this. You can be arrested, jailed and fined for not having it. A nice way to accrue money too. Hay, another new tax that isn’t called a tax! Where are the Tea Partiers on this topic?

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 6, 2010 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt:

I can’t figure out how a nut-hole like J.T. Ready got could be let near
any legislation, let alone legislation with constitutional ramifications.
Historically Nazis and Socialists were bitter enemies. Their fundamental
politics were in opposition. In the 1930s the Nazis killed thousands of
people associated with the Socialist Party. Although, after researching
J.T. Ready and the National Socialist Movement I can see why many
Americans have gotten the impression that the two are one in the same.
One of the unfortunate side-effects is that now when “teabaggers” put a
Hitler mustache on Obama and call him a socialist the historical
inaccuracy is lost

Socialism is a type of economic system that is based off of the common
need rather than the individual. And I doubt that J.T. Ready and the
National Socialist Movement would share their resources with naturalized
Mexican Americans, most minorities or any of us. In fact, from what I can
tell they think of Socialism as it’s own form of government as opposed to
an economic system.

I have to agree with most of your opinions on this thread. Calling
Arizonans Nazis is extreme, reactionary and historically inaccurate. But,
I think we can safely say that the law which they are supporting reflects
“Nazi style fascism”.

I am glad though that you expressed your dislike of the word “alien”
being used to refer to an immigrant. But I’m sure you know the score
there. We could not detain and violate the basic human rights of people
if they were called “visiting human beings”. I would also like to see
Americans stop using the word “illegals” as a noun. It is not a word that
appears in our dictionary. There is no plural for the word illegal
because it is usually used as a verb, adjective or adverb.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 6, 2010 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

Don’t forget that some of the more heinous things done in Guantanamo and Abu Gharib* were from Americans but from our prison system and gov’t/corporate spooks and torturers. Where did they get their training and experience? Notice that the corporate goons weren’t even mentioned in the news reports or in any legal proceedings? Somehow they are immune from all laws. How could that be?

*Even if Guantanamo should ever be closed we still have many military bases that are also part of the dark constellation of secret prisons like Baghram AFB where human rights and the Bill of Rights don’t exist.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 6, 2010 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

Dihey:

It is no surprise that Joe “turncoat” Lieberman is putting his own paranoid
sense of self preservation ahead of our civil liberties. He slashed and
burned his friends and his own party for political gain. After 26 years of
holding national office as a Democrat he lost a primary fair and square.
Suddenly, he was endorsing John McCain for president and running as a
republican and was reelected.

I am not the biggest fan of purely partisan politics but I am astute enough
to know that the people who strongly identify as Democrats or Republicans
embody very different general ideologies. So how could he suddenly endorse
the candidates and policies of the party that he had been slanting for
years. Simple, because it profited him. He got to keep his position as a
career politician. Moreover, I think what all of this demonstrates is that
the core of our federal government is a fraternal club with their own overt
and covert agendas that almost always come before the will and well-being
of the average American. Damn. These monkey biters have got a people loving
far left socialist like me sounding like a Libertarian!

But yes I think that Lieberman’s little circus of a mind is spewing ideas
that are closer to Nazi style fascism then anything since the McCarthy
days. Although, the Patriot Act and Arizona immigration law sb1070 are a
close second and third. I mean, to strip an American’s citizenship because
of “suspicions”. We might as well be shooting at bald eagles while pissing
on the constitution. I think that most people don’t realize and very often
take for granted ALL of the liberties and protections that would be in jeopardy if they were stripped of citizenship. ANY American (did you hear
that white people? ANY) could be treated like a prisoner at Abu Ghraib and
worse. Sorry, you’re in this cell for the next five years and no you can’t
ever use the phone and no you will never see an attorney and no your family
can’t visit you because your location is a secret and they will just go on
believing you’ve vanished.

I know that a lot of Americans think that all of this couldn’t happen here
on American soil but THAT’S WHY GUANTANAMO IS IN CUBA!

The bigger point here is that the time square bomber and all of the 9/11
hijackers were here LEGALLY! Visas in hand. So why are we not looking at
our own immigration POLICY and how visas are distributed and enforced? I’ll
tell you why. Because in 2010 there are a lot hot races for congressional
seats and Republicans know that the idea of hordes of brown people
streaming across the Arizona border scares the hell out of people. I feel
like I need to keep beating this drum so I will say this one more time.
MOST UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE IN THE US DID NOT CROSS THE MEXICAN BORDER
ILLEGALLY. MOST STAYED AFTER A VISA EXPIRED! Let’s actually reform our
immigration policies and stop vilifying undocumented Mexican nationals who
largely live and work peacefully in this country.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 6, 2010 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

On MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow  I recently saw that a real Nazi, J.T.Ready of the NSM (National Socialist Movement) was involved in writing the language for SB1070 which does give it an even more sinister cast. Now it doesn’t in any way mitigate violence in the streets. I am all for business owners being allowed to protect their property up to and including use of deadly force. Peaceful protest is one thing and legal. No matter how afraid and angry they’re there is no proper use or reason for such criminal mayhem. Any support of it is also not right. It should be reported on as anything else. It was that I saw and heard. (MSNBC & PACIFICA radio)

Report this

By melpol, May 6, 2010 at 7:02 am Link to this comment

It is not objectionable to have a cop ask for an ID if they a searching for a known individual. Totalitarianism rears its ugly head when that cop is asking to find out if the suspect belongs to a certain class of people. The border problem must be solved by the US and Mexican governments not by thousands of racially profiling police.

Report this

By dihey, May 6, 2010 at 5:52 am Link to this comment

Here is one for you Hitler/Nazi buffs. Senator Liebermann has proposed that an American citizen can be robbed of his/her citizenship if he/she is suspected to be in league with a “terrorist organization” and that without due process so that he/she can be sent to Guantanamo and tried by a military tribunal.
This proposed legislation comes infinitely closer to a feature of Nazi Germany than the Arizona law for the following reason. Germans who were political opponents of Hitler, notably communists, were declared stateless upon incarceration in concentration camps. We should also tell the Jewish Liebermann that the same was done for German Jews when they were sent to camps. I know because my mom received a notice to that effect when my dad was sent to Dachau in 1936 and my sister and I became stateless under Dutch law (we lived at the time in the Netherlands).

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 5, 2010 at 6:58 pm Link to this comment

Ozark Michael:
I’m not sure why you think that I’m name calling. I believe that you just
added the “you are” at the beginning of several things that I wrote.
Several of which were not even in response to anything you wrote. In fact
everything of mine that you quoted was all clearly directed toward screen
names melpol and maani.

Let me just reiterate that the entire immigration issue that’s being
tossed about like so much wet tapioca is a smoke screen and politically
motivated. It is a rallying cry. It is no accident that this issue which
so divisively tears at us is being championed now when both parties have
their sights set on controlling Congress and it’s close on both sides. The point has been made several times but it is important enough to say
again. The supporters of Arizona’s newest law are touting that it does
not promote racial profiling and that the police will only have the right
to ask about immigration status if you are already committing a crime.
That was already the case! It is called probable cause. What exactly then
is the purpose of this legislation. Are they admitting to us that this
law only allows them to search the people that they could already legally
search under probable cause? And let me just that in many cases,
especially those involving “not white” people the definition of probable
cause was already being stretched passed the normal thresholds.

The controversy surrounding all of this is just a flash in the pan and I
have still not heard a single peep about what we are going to do with
ten’s of millions of people even if we could find and detain them all. I
also have not heard anything about how we are going to reform immigration
law at the point of the greatest sustained influx. That is not the
Mexican border! It is the people who are staying after a visa has
expired. But again the real debate is non-existent because no one really
plans to do anything tangible. In fact, I would wager that the next real
move toward federal immigration reform will happen in early 2013. That is
of course contingent upon Obama being reelected and Nostradamus being
wrong.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, May 5, 2010 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment

I did not know that there were violent clashes between supporters and non-supporters of the Arizona law.

In SanFrancisco a few people were hurt.

In Santa Cruz the “non supporters” of the Arizona Law did $100,000 worth of damage to local businesses. 

I would like to ask you guys a question: If this had been done by Tea Party people, would you have heard about it? Would the President have spoken up against extreme talk and the violence it leads to?

You know it.

Would we be seeing the Tea party violence on television and listening to talking heads discuss how dangerous “Teabaggers” are? Reading two or three Truthdig articles about it? With generous commentary by the Truthdiggers? Pictures of all the damage? Video?

Absolutely.

As it is, the violence was done by Leftists. So instead of coverage and discussion and blame we get quiet serenity.  Its practically a media black-out.

Furthermore, just for mentioning the facts I will have to brave the usual insults. Lets just get it over with: I will yell at myself, and insult myself so you dont have to…

“You are a racist expressing racism!”
“You are ignoring desperate acts of love!”
“You are a clueless American!”

and lets not forget dissentispatriotic’s favorite riff…

“You are not good with punctuation!”

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 5, 2010 at 4:05 pm Link to this comment

The bottom line here is that negative stereotyping of all immigrants is
rampant, diversionary and not relevant to the larger immigration debate.
An overwhelming majority of the tens of millions of undocumented workers
in the US are peaceful and hard working. They are not the enemy! In fact
the violent drug wars in Mexico are caused by our drugs. We are the
buyers of virtually every gram of narcotics that has ever passed through
Mexico. But somehow in the immigration debate they are bringing their
drugs into our country. The theme is recurring. We don’t look hard at our
own drug laws. Instead we say if only they would stop bringing it in. We
aren’t actually addressing immigration comprehensively as a nation now.
Because deep down we know that America will never turn down an
exploitable resource. We just need someone to hate in an election year. 

I also wanted to address a point about undocumented Mexican immigrants
demanding rights here that a legal immigrant would not have in Mexico. In
many cases people do not sneak hushed across a border. Often people stay
here illegally after their work visa has expired. Whole families that
have built a life here. They know that deportation means economic
uncertainty, fear of a partially naturalized family being split up, and
concerns for the well-being and safety of their families. This is at the
heart of the immigration issue. People protest because their families
best chance for a secure future rests on outdated and often unfair
immigration policy that brought them here and now want’s them out. I have
heard people in this debate equivocate being here illegally with robbing
a bank. I mean in both cases the law is broken. There is a difference!
One is a desperate act of violence. The other is a desperate act of love
for one’s family and their well being. The other difference is that the
laws prohibiting bank robbery are just and well defined while our
immigration laws are not.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 5, 2010 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment

No, but really, the word Arizona is most likely derived
from the Aztec Indian word “arizuma” meaning “silver-
bearing”. Although, it may also be derived from the
Tohono O’odham Indian word “aleh-zone” meaning “small
spring”. In any event it is unfortunate and ironic that
the descendants of the Aztecs living in Mexico are now
barred from entering a state which derives it’s name
from their own culture.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 5, 2010 at 3:53 pm Link to this comment

Is the goal here to actually find a viable resolution at all? Do we have
ICE round everyone up into detainment camps for deportation? Is it cost
effective or good for the economy to find, arrest and deport ten’s of
millions of skilled workers? If the Arizona law does not use profiling
and allows police the right to stop someone for immigration papers only
if they are committing a crime, then what exactly changed? Couldn’t they
already do that? Do Americas powerful special interests really want to
lose a massive cheap work force? Democrats are not eager to approach
another heated issue, Republicans are forcing the debate and it’s a mid-
term election year. So I’m not holding my breath for anything meaningful.
I’m sorry to bring bad news, but it’s just election scuddlebutt. This law
is so unconstitutional it will die on it’s own anyway.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 5, 2010 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

maani:
I do apologize for misspelling a word on a blog post which is hollowed and immaculate. I hope that this doesn’t follow me on my permanent record as I have just
applied to become an astronaut. So if you could promise not to tell anyone else in
cyberspace that would be grand.


I was shocked to read all the statistics in one random post. They claim that 95% of
all murder warrants in Los Angeles are for “illegal aliens”. That is a lot of scape-
goating! I do however agree with an earlier post stating that 51% of all Americans
are clueless. Lets talk about the just and honorable things that never would have
happened in this country if it had been left up to the popular vote.
1. Independence
2. Abolition of Slavery
3. Voting Rights for Women
4. Civil Rights
5. Desegregation

The fact is that even if we could identify and deport every undocumented worker in
the US, the economy would collapse. We are so opulently racist that we can’t even
appreciate that these 50 million people are doing our dirty work every day. I mean
if you saw a white person with a German accent buying groceries you wouldn’t even
think twice about their immigration status. Lastly, most undocumented people in this
country did not cross a border illegally. According to the INS, most simply stayed
after a visa expired. So building walls and putting the military at the border
addresses a minuscule part of this issue.

If you live in the United States overwhelming chances are you are in the top 5% of
income earners in the world. We are wealthy enough to eat appetizers; you know the
food that makes us hungry for more food. We have this wealth because our stolen
lands are bountiful and our economy, in it’s infancy, was made one of the strongest
in the world by cotton, tobacco and slavery. So just enjoy the plunder. Stay
comfortable and well entertained and stop projecting your insecurities onto people
who are trying to do the same thing for their families that your immigrant fore-
bearers did for yours.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 5, 2010 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

Is there anybody out there? Nope. Just melpol the one
dimensional hologram of a memory of a shadow of
humanity. I don’t think he can read though. He doesn’t
seem to respond to stimuli. I think he is just cutting
and pasting racist comments from racist home repair we-
sites. I wonder what kind of dirty prison underwear he
has been sniffing. Any legitimate comments or or
observations about melpol would be welcome.

Report this

By dihey, May 5, 2010 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

I did not know that there were violent clashes between supporters and non-supporters of the Arizona law. However, those of you who for some weird reason believe that Arizona is already on its way to a Nazi-state it would be well to remember that there were daily fights in the streets of Germany’s cities, often involving firearms, between Nazis, Communists, and Socialists. Especially the first two had their organized gangs of semi-trained fighters, often soldiers from WW1. These deadly fights also began long before Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany. I see nothing of the sort happening in Arizona.

Report this

By Maani, May 5, 2010 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Dissentispatriotic:

“Where did you learn to speak English. I mean, you don’t even know how to finish a complete sentence. Why don’t you go back to…Oh I’m sorry you speak English? You are just too feeble and racist to understand that ‘illegals’ is not a word in our language. That didn’t stop you from using
it as a noun though. Good for you. Your making steps toward speaking the language properly.”

“Your?”  Don’t you mean “You’re?”  Maybe you better take the log out of your own eye before you take the splinter out of anothers’...

Report this

By melpol, May 5, 2010 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment

There is a painter in town whom we call Speedy Gonzales. He spray paints a
house for only 150 bucks including the paint. Every house in the area was done
by him including the home of a civil judge. According to some unemployed
rednecks, the home owners should be arrested, imprisoned and Speedy deported.
If that happened the cost of spray painting a house would be 800 bucks, the paint
not included. Budget minded homeowners love speedy more than the unemployed
rednecks, and hope he will bring in his 5 brothers.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 5, 2010 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment

melpol:
Where did you learn to speak English. I mean, you don’t even know how to
finish a complete sentence. Why don’t you go back to ...Oh I’m sorry you
speak English? You are just too feeble and racist to understand that
“illegals” is not a word in our language. That didn’t stop you from using
it as a noun though. Good for you. Your making steps toward speaking the
language properly. Maybe we’ll keep you around after all. Perhaps as a
goofy mascot. I wanted to include a picture of my fuzzy bean bag to
reflect my feelings about your rampant racism but I decided on 12
definitions of the words racist and racism. Think of it as your own
little twelve step program. This is the first step. 1)keep reading these
definitions until you can admit that when you are “paling around” it is
OFFENSIVE and RACIST! I know there are some big words but you can do it!
I mean, you could be a boot licker or an errand boy. You have that
potential.

the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to
members of other races

discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and
capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of
a particular race.

The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes; The
belief that one race is superior to all others; Prejudice or
discrimination based upon race

based on racial intolerance

a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others

discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion

An advocate of racism; Of, relating to, or advocating racism

Any attitude, action or institutional structure which systematically
treats an individual or group of individuals differently because of their
race.

An ideology based on the idea that humans can be separated into distinct
racial groups and that these groups can be ranked on a hierarchy of
intelligence, ability, morality etc.

the use of race to establish and justify a social hierarchy and system of
power that privileges, preferences or advances certain individuals or
groups of people usually at the expense of others. Racism is perpetuated
through both interpersonal and institutional practices.

A set of incorrect assumptions, opinions and acts resulting from the
belief that one race is inherently/genetically superior to another. It
occurs when people are not treated fairly because of their cultural or
ethnic differences. Racism may be systemic (part of institutions,
organizations, and programs) or part of the attitudes and behaviour of
individuals.

Report this
dissentispatriotic's avatar

By dissentispatriotic, May 5, 2010 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

Bolten and Felicity:
Thank you both for your voices of reason. Democrats won’t touch it
with a ten foot pole after health care, but a Republican state just
keeps shoving it further and further up our collective asses. You’d
think it was a mid-term election year.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, May 5, 2010 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt said: Yes calling them “Nazis” is extreme and unnecessary. Though I dare say it wasn’t calling them that which caused those protesters to use violence.

I agree. Calling Arizona the name “Nazi” didnt cause the people who marched against Arizona to resort to violence. I never really thought it did. But its the logic of Truthdig and I wanted to throw it right back at them.

BTW, your posts have been very good for a long time Night-Gaunt. Not just because we agree sometimes. Even when we disagree your meaning is clear and your logic is good. kudos…

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 5, 2010 at 10:49 am Link to this comment

Yes calling them “Nazis” is extreme and unnecessary. Though I dare say it wasn’t calling them that which caused those protesters to use violence. It was the fact that those people feared being targeted. However right or wrong on that point the use of violence where none was to be had made them criminals anyway and should be roundly condemned by all. I do. Such uses of the term “Nazi” has been over used and poorly used since people only think of them during their most extreme actions with the death camps and extermination projects. Not early on when they were doing a steady clamp down, where they shortened the leashes and stripped away rights a layer at a time. Maybe they could have called them Bolsheviks or Black Shirts and that would have been slightly better, or not. Just point out the facts and let others draw their conclusions without hyperbole. Not hysterical histrionics.

Report this

By melpol, May 5, 2010 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

Home owners are the main source of employment for wetbacks and are never
spoken about in the comments, only executives take the blame. The raw truth is
that 90% of illegals work for budget minded home owners and most likely the
sheriff. Unless the small guy is willing to pay higher prices for repairs, the illegals
will continue to dance the cha cha.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, May 5, 2010 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

There, Seth MacFarlane said it, But in facthe wasnt the first one to say it, and it has been said repeatedly on the Left.

The charge is a serious one. Calling people Nazi makes them legitimate targets for violence. It can incite people to violence.

In fact, that is what happened. During the marches against the Arizona law, windows were smashed and violence broke out. Since the extreme talk of the Left wing encouraged the violence, they are responsible.

Truthdig and the posters here should pay for the clean-up, at least if you really believe their rhetoric about ‘extreme language on talk radio encourages tea party violence’ and such.

So put up or shut up.

Report this

By dihey, May 5, 2010 at 5:33 am Link to this comment

melpol
Many years ago my family was camping on a private campground in West Texas. We noticed that repairs were being made on several cabins by men who would not talk to us. The owner of the campground told us that these were “Mexicans” suggesting that they were “illegals”. We said: “do you not get into troubles with the sheriff”? He: “no, they work for the sheriff too”.

Report this

By melpol, May 5, 2010 at 5:16 am Link to this comment

The largest employer of illegals is not agribusiness but home owners. They want repairs done at a discount. A leak can be fixed by an illegal for 50 bucks instead of 100.  A home can be rewired for less than 400 dollars. The only way to stop home owners from employing illegals is to arrest one and put the home owner on the front page wearing handcuffs.

Report this

By Maani, May 4, 2010 at 9:33 pm Link to this comment

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.  Then they came for the Socialists and Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.  Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.  And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”  Pastor Martin Niemoeller, Nazi Germany

Report this

By race card, May 4, 2010 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Seth MacFarlen is a Nazi. Ha! there i win this argument automatically because i called you a *Nazi*—I’m so funny I should write scripts for the Family Guy

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 4, 2010 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment

I also means that everyone in Arizona must have the kind of ID that will pass the tests of citizenship at that stop. It could be used on citizens too as an extra means of policing power. Since everyone is under this then anyone can find themselves arrested if they don’t have all the paper work they demand. A little item not mentioned buried in all this. The 4th Amendment is dead again it seems. The continuation of the Bush/Obama Administration lives on ever since Reagan unbroken to now and beyond. As Naomi Wolf pointed out in case, after case. the freedoms were gradually whittled down and slowly suppressed before they were living in police states. Even Hitler, Stalin & Mussolini didn’t do it all at once, it happened gradually. And it was supported by the bulk of the populace like in AZ. So it goes here.

Report this
OverMyCoffeeCup's avatar

By OverMyCoffeeCup, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

The people who have not looked at the law but reply only on another’s interpretation are facilitating the fear-mongering.

No cop is going to say, “Hey, look, there’s a Mexican…let’s check their papers…” Not if he wants to keep his job. If cops are called to a domestic fight, a rape, a drunken brawl in a bar, a murder, an auto accident..in other words, some initiating crime in place,IF they suspect the person/people involved are not legal immigrants,(because maybe they can’t speak English)then they can ask to see their Immigration status.

In order to be a Legal Immigrant, one has to speak English to take their Citizenship oath.

Because State ID’s have been forged, the police can’t just ask for a drivers license.

To say they are profiling Mexicans is stupid. If a tall, slim white guy with curly black hair robs a liquor store, are the police going to look at short, fat bald headed Mexicans for fear they are profiling someone?

There is already in place a lawful path for Legal Immigration. Use it.

I have to show ID if a cop asks. It is against the law to NOT have a State issued ID on your person when you are away from your home. 

http://overmycoffeecup.blogspot.com/2010/05/solidarity-for-arizona.html

Report this

By felicity, May 4, 2010 at 11:08 am Link to this comment

Whether we’re on the road to Mussolini-type fascism or not, as practiced the Arizona law turns a basic premise underlying our entire judicial system on its head because in Arizona now one is assumed guilty (that’s why I stopped you) and then must prove his innocence (show me your papers.)

Should this anomalous practice ever find its way, granted insidiously, into our justice system eroding our innocent-until-proven-guilty principle, there lies the danger.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 4, 2010 at 8:48 am Link to this comment

So Peter Knopfler you are suggesting then that Mexico is an example the USA must copy? You think it is a better idea coming from a better country? That is the implication of you statements.

We wouldn’t be having these problems in the first place if we didn’t have NAFTA which destroyed Mexico’s economy and promoted the exodus of 12 million here in the first place! Also the fact that the law mostly turns away when the business want to under pay workers to do hard labor to keep the prices artificially low either. Also the fact we are in a depression (17%-20% un/under employed on a full count) makes it that much worse. Any way the business can low ball employees they do. They are hiring people to do jobs that pay $10 hour are more and they are taking jobs away from people who are desperate for work.

Early on Germany like other authoritarian states of then and now many times slowly developed into more ruthless actions over time. Between 1933-1939 Germany didn’t behave or look very different to most of the people living there and visiting. The death camps and mass deportations increased as the war started and things got so much worse. Though the Jews and Romany and the mentally and physically ill got to feel it first and the longest.

Actually this new law just gives the police more latitude, they already have so much, to stop on “suspicion” and be able to ask more detailed questions. If you can’t prove you are a resident or resident ‘alien’ (I despise that term) they can arrest you and fine you for it there. Now the police in some cases don’t want this because to them it is a burden for others it is an opportunity. We may not have death camps but we do have prisons filled with those who have done nothing else but be here to work illegally. Prison then deportation without any recourse or protections. That isn’t good.

Canada is in far better shape than Mexico so they would be idiots to move here.

Report this

By dihey, May 4, 2010 at 6:56 am Link to this comment

The truly pernicious and vile aspect of the Nazi regime was not the requirement that all citizens had to carry identification papers which the police could ask to see (that was true in the Weimar Republic too) but that Jews and Gypsies had to register as such with the city government hence the police. Because the overwhelming majority of Jews did register their rounding up began by the “official” command to come to a railroad station of the city the next morning with a few extra clothes and food for a few days for “work in the East”. This was followed up by house rounding up known as “razzia” of Jews that had registered but had not appeared at the railroad station.
Although Americans have to register to vote we do not have to register with the police when we take up residence in another city or move within a city. That is not true for “green carders”. They must re-register even when they move within a city/county/state. In the Netherlands and Germany such registration is mandatory for all citizens and foreigners.
If the practices of Nazi Germany are a true and believable guideline for what might be in store for illegal residents, the real nastiness could begin when they come out in the open to register. I hope that this will not be the case.

Report this

By Bolton, May 4, 2010 at 6:45 am Link to this comment

People i think u need to wake up. These laws in arizona don’t change a thing really. Cops could always pull ANYONE over anytime they want in reality. Sure u have rights. But when u are on the road and its just u and mr policeman he/she can make up any reason to stop u if he really wants to. He could say u were driving erractically, or changed lanes without a signal or thought u looked suspicious, etc. If a cop has no ethics (and many do), or needs to meet his quotas, you are getting stopped and harrassed. LAPD has rolled up on me numerous times while i was JUST WALKING DOWN THE STREET minding my own business and asked me if i was on parole or probation , put me in handcuffs while they ran my ID through their squadcar computer, did a complete body search, and interrogated me wanting to know why i had money on me, trying to force me into admitting i was either using or selling drugs. They profiled me because of my clothes, and tattoos. Blacks that dress a certain way (the so called gangsta look) in Hermosa Beach get stopped,checked out and interrogated by police every time they go in that town. So profiling in many forms have existed and will continue to exist in this country. If a citizen gets questioned by any police anywhere he had better have ID or that citizen will be going to jail until the cops can figure out who that person is and that he doesn’t have any warrants or other violations pending. WAKE UP PEOPLE! You only have rights in theory, reality is a soft police state.

Report this

By dihey, May 4, 2010 at 5:58 am Link to this comment

By kerryrose, May 4 at 7:07 am #

dihey has his facts absolutely wrong.  It was standard practice in Nazi Germany for police to ask for papers.  It is absolutely NOT required to carry papers in the Netherlands.

Don’t twist facts to support a personal agenda.

1. In 1933 we lived in Germany. Where were you then?
2. In March of this year I was in Amsterdam (where I grew up) where I stayed with friends. I assure you that in IS required in the Netherlands to carry identification papers in public at all times. You are misinformed.
3. Your last sentence is the statement of a biased person who cannot “win” an argument without vilifying his opponent. What do you know about my “personal agenda”? Nothing, absolutely nothing and you are just guessing.

Report this

By diman, May 4, 2010 at 5:56 am Link to this comment

The police ask for your papers in Moscow and everybody is O.K. with it, shit even in Israel - the symbol of the Middle Eastern democracy, guess what, they ask for them too.What can you expect from the “creator” of “The family guy”

Report this

By diman, May 4, 2010 at 5:28 am Link to this comment

“Family Guy creator” - sounds as if he has truly created something culturally significant and important.

Report this
kerryrose's avatar

By kerryrose, May 4, 2010 at 3:07 am Link to this comment

dihey has his facts absolutely wrong.  It was standard practice in Nazi Germany for police to ask for papers.  It is absolutely NOT required to carry papers in the Netherlands.

Don’t twist facts to support a personal agenda.

Report this

By rose, May 4, 2010 at 2:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dihey is always so cocky sure about his facts, and everyone else is just so stupid.  Guess what?  Your wrong. The Nazi’s routinely asked for ‘papers’ and rarely ‘ignored’ a potential jew.  Your ‘facts’ about the Netherlands is completely wrong, too.  There is absolutely no requirement to carry papers.

Stop defending a personal agenda with lies.

Report this

By IchliebeSie, May 4, 2010 at 12:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The Nazis did ask for papers during their rule.  This does not matter as their reign finished several decades ago.  In that time, there was a very strong desire to have as little diversity as possible.  There was standards of what the best person looks like and best actions and beliefs.

I can understand some similarities between Arizona and Nazi Germany in treating non-citizens and guests in both scenarios.  In Nazi Germany, if a person did not look a particular way or did not believe what they were supposed to and could not adapt to the standards of living and behavior - they were not welcome.  Of course foreigners were not welcome there either and, like Arizona, adopted such a policy.  So again very similar.

Some people say something like “The United States did not ordered killing of hispanics like the Nazis ordered killing of Jews.”  To which I reply, “Well…not now.”  If some is able to “read their history books” and some people here suggest, they would discover that, yes, the United States ordered the murder of hispanics in the past and had dictators who were genocidal maniacs throughout South and Central America paid by the United States(Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Cuba, Chile, and other nations that I can not think of now - and that is just in the Americas).

I wonder how many people will police request for proof of citizenship in the next year.  My guess is that most will be hispanic.  Arizona has said that people carry identification at all times - including United States ctizens.  It appears that is the absence of proof of citizenship that is the crime.

Someone here mentioned that most of Europe order people to have identification at all times.  This is just understood.  It is like carrying a license.  The difference is that I believe some USA citizens will object to having to carry more proof of being a citizen.  We will discover soon.  I have not seen many police bother foreign people.

Report this

By Lily Maskew, May 3, 2010 at 11:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The group of people that I am concerned with right now is legal immigrants.  Why should legal citizens be harassed?  And, of course, they will be because they are indistinguisable from illegals in appearance.  People that aren’t concerned about this have no compassion.  After all, most of us don’t look latino so why should we worry about other people?  The road to hell is paved with people who don’t care about anyone but themselves.

Report this

By dihey, May 3, 2010 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

Mr. McFarlane knows absolutely zilch about the Nazi SA goons. They did not ask for papers. When they saw a person that “looked Jewish” they either ignored that person or beat him/her up. On occasion they asked a cornered male to show his penis to find out whether he had been circumcised.
Carrying identifying papers was required in most if not all states of the Weimar Republic prior to Hitler becoming Germany’s chancellor. The Weimar republic was not a strong democracy but did not murder Jews in concentration camps.
Carrying identifying papers in public at all times is today required in The Netherlands and Germany and probably in even more European countries. Are you trying to argue that the Netherlands is a fascist country in which gays are allowed to marry and openly serve in the armed forces? LOL. Apparently there is no direct causal relation between the demand for carrying identification papers and Nazi-style behavior other than in Mr. McFarlane’s fantasy world of what Nazi-Germany looked like.

Report this

By AlexPM, May 3, 2010 at 7:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I love all the spelling mistakes from the people criticizing Seth McFarlane’s reported views. Well done in graduating high school English guys.

To say that race has nothing to do with this law is somewhat naive to say the least. Does Mr. Gorak really believe that the Arizona police are going to randomly ask every European, Canadian and American person they see for their “papers”? Of course not.

As Peter Knopfler and Canyon Critter point out, in their own rambling way, this law is directed at Mexicans - “unless you have lived on the border you dont know what its like down there” and the very telling “Remember Germany-Hitler was not attacked by 12 million people from a southern border”. Lovely sentiments from both of them - but at least they are not pretending, as Dave Gorak does, that this law is aimed at anyone except the “12 million people from a southern border”.

I, for one, am glad that Seth McFarlane is using his position to question the direction of these laws. Unfortunately our lawmakers are too preoccupied with re-election to focus on citizens’ and general human rights.

Report this

By tatata, May 3, 2010 at 5:16 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Why the fuck does this racist asshole care? he makes fun of mexicans on his show i would think he’d be on full support of this law. why doesn’t he go draw while the politicians handle everything else

Report this

By lichen, May 3, 2010 at 4:52 pm Link to this comment

Yes, the arizona law is racial profiling and no, it won’t survive.

Report this

By Wren, May 3, 2010 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Apparently the fact this Arizona SB 1070 2010 law will force CITIZENS to carry their “Papiere” hasn’t quite sunk in yet. Has it, Dave Gorak? Peter Knopfler? Oh right, you two are not brown skinned. No need to worry that you will be asked for your proof of citizenship.

Either of you ever ask why we do not need to worry about the 3000 plus mile border with Canada? Other than they are just as white as you are, Canada wasn’t a major agricultural based economy like Mexico was. NAFTA was set up to destroy local farmers outside the U.S. and ship your jobs to whoever would work for the least pay. Want less immigration from Mexico? Tell your government to end NAFTA and help restore Mexico’s agricultural sector. Otherwise shut your racist pie holes! People are people and not a race.

Report this

By canyon critter, May 3, 2010 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

i shouldnt even comment on this article its so stupid. we should adopt mexico’s immigrations laws. unless you have lived on the border you dont know what its like down there. i lived on the border for 16 yrs now i live on the canadian border. up here except for at the border crossing there really is no enforcement. dont need it because canada respects are laws. for these illegals and their minion this is about taking over. that congressman from chicago who was arrested at the capitol.. whats his game he is a long way from representing his people in his district. im sure there are blacks and whites in his distric. why is he in arizona? who paid for his trip? on his official website he will only accept e-mail from people in his district you have to enter your zipcode and if your not in his district you cant get through. is he representing mexico? he took an oath to uphold the laws of this country. as far as im concerned he’s guilty of treason and should be in jail. this is not about some law passed in arizona. who are the real racists and america haters. this is not the immigration that built this country. these poeple are not immigrants at all. i suggest people read there history books

Report this
Peter Knopfler's avatar

By Peter Knopfler, May 3, 2010 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

To add a post script to my cooment above. Remember Germany-Hitler was not attacked by 12 million people from a southern border, NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WOULD HAVE TOLERATED MEXICO`S agressive immigration policy supporting their own citizens to violate another countries borders,laws, and then expect to be greeted with open arms. These past demonstrations prove that they are violent and soon the NRA Americans will arm and defend themselves, They-Mexicans attack with machette, farm tools, Americans blow them away with 44 caliber 357 calib, Shot Guns and Military issues weapons—-left overs from desert storm.Violence gegets violence laws of attraction, If you have to demonstrate, non-violence is the only way, don`t give them an excuse to gun you down. This week end was very bad for Mexicans, they looked stupid and uneducated, high on drugs, drunk and harrassing the police, way the go Mexico blew it again 20,ooo murders, along the border since 2006. Thgank you ARIZONA.

Report this
Peter Knopfler's avatar

By Peter Knopfler, May 3, 2010 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

Obviously Seth is not well informed and his age has something to do with his stupid Nazi example, but I am old enough and Jewish enough to know better. In the USA of A at one time everyone elligable for draft-military had to carry a draft card. In Mexico where I live now all nationals are required to carry their IF National ID card. Police profile tourists all the time. Here foreighners like myself have no rights, even if married or working, NO RIGHTS, so only in Seth`s uneducated lack of eperience, possible mind, compares Arizona Immigration bill to the Third Reich probably doesn`t even what and when was the first and second Reich, Seth only knows combate TV shows, weird stuff from a no body.

Report this

By Dave Gorak, May 3, 2010 at 12:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Seth MacFarlane apparently has never traveled outside of this country.  Other nations require that foreigners carry their “papers” with them as well.  As for this country, well, foreigners here legally have been required to have with them their papers SINCE 1940.

MacFarlane should stop shooting from the lip about “racial profiling” when race played no part in Arizona’s decision to do only what our lame federal government has failed to do for decades:  enforce existing immigration laws that were created for the main purpose of protecting American workers.  MacFarlane does care about U.S. citizens being able to hold jobs, doesn’t he?

Dave Gorak
Executive director
Midwest Coalition to Reduce Immigration
La Valle, Wis

Report this
 
Right 1, Site wide - BlogAds Premium
 
Right 2, Site wide - Blogads
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 
 
 
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 

A Progressive Journal of News and Opinion   Publisher, Zuade Kaufman   Editor, Robert Scheer
© 2014 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.