Manning is going through the trials and tribulations of fame.

He is too much of a household name to ‘disappear’, too many Americans are aware of his plight and sympathize with with his disclosures.

Why is Mannings courts martial taking so long?  Were’s the military efficiency of this railroading.

gerard,
concur.
My intention is to present the idea that types such as Mrs. Napolitano, via their disinformative manner of massageing the info, turn our children-grandchildren veterans into “nobodies”.
Regardless of why they enlisted and served in the U.S. Military, they non-the-less served, thinking they were behaving patriotically and supporting the best interests of the USofA.

My point is to empasize that they receive abusive treatment by Department of Homeland Security Secretary-types, which, via psychological methodology, reduces them to PTSD-psychologically-maladapted, which tends to preempt the genuine value of their speaking out against the atrocities inflicted on the Arab & Moslem world citizenry by the U.S.Military. Devaluing their opinions is the goal of Napolitano-types, pawns of the GHWBushSr entourage.

My apology for not expressing my idea more clearly.

@ drbhelthi - I take exception to labeling foreign wars, torture, and war crimes “un-American”, although I think I understand that you intend this as a counterfactual assertion, in the sense that we used to believe that “American” represented “...  a never-ending battle for truth, justice, [and the American way]!”
And again, drbhelthi, one branch denies atrocities, defends killing peasants with drone delivered bombs from the sky while another branch labels those who carry out these policies (the foot soldiers) as incompetent or liars and criminals (when they speak the truth), but also refuses to take the best care of them after destroying their lives also.

@ gerard - “Meantime, we who permit this system to operate…”
I agree. If I had children [and they would now be of an age to die in foreign imperialist wars] I would never stop shouting and protesting (even at the risk of imprisonment myself) to stop the killing maiming torturing and destruction. What perturbs (understated by far) me the most, what I find completely incomprehensible, is that this populace is so unaware, so pre-occupied, so undereducated, so ignorant as to ALLOW their children to die to preserve corporate wealth.

drbhelthi:  That phrase “veteran nobodies” I have to protest.  Soldiers and ex-soldiers are fully human beings and if they aren’t killed, they bear the wounds to prove it—mental and physical wounds.
The fact that “they should have known bettere than to get into the military ranks” is beside the point, since enormous pressures push them in, whether ignorance, lack of jobs, foolish idealism or line of least resistance at the time.  Probably only a tiny minority joined up with a conscious desire to kill people.  Most of them are lied into it, and are too
naive to recognize the lies.  Meantime, we who permit this system to operate are the ones who should confess our own sins as being “political nobodies” for tolerating wars, and then start working to organize “Jobs for Peace” as the slogan goes.

“If this kid is guilty than every soldier that has confessed to family members of the atrocities going on during deployment is guilty too.” ignorance_perhaps

Which is the basic motive for Mrs. Janet Napolitano, 3rd Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, classifying returning veterans as threats to national security.

Take American youth to a foreign land, maim their psyches with un-American behavior and their bodies with inoculations and exposure to depleted-uranium-radiation, upon return to the U.S. classify them as PTSD cases. Label anything they say publicly as incompetent. What do we have? U.S. American veteran nobodies.

I feel sorry for this kid. If anyone knows how
ranking works in the military, they’d know as a Pfc.
you don’t have the authorization for information like
that to just fall on your lap.  He can account for
things he has physically witnessed but all else came
from someone else’s hand(s) and this poor kid is
having to suffer for letting the rest of us know
information that mainstream media failed to give us.
When I hear others saying this kid is a traitor to
America it hurts my ears.  The only thing this kid is
guilty of is choosing people over a war, and laying
honesty over the lies.  But hey don’t be surprised
there are actually thousands of innocent men who have
been found innocent by a jury of fellow Americans
that are still locked up.  America, where you are
guilty locked up even after being proven innocent
over a period of 9 years and 100 eye-witnesses to
back you up.  Oh but lets not point the finger at our
country…oh heavens no, why should we, when we can criticize other countries for the same inhumane
practices. If this kid is guilty than every soldier
that has confessed to family members of the
atrocities going on during deployment is guilty too.

In the early nineties (nineteen nineties) a very good friend secured asylum in the US. I am familiar with his story of torture in Moscow by the local police, the very story that lead the Court to grant asylum in the US. The torture consisted in twice, for one-night periods, having restrained him to a chair in the middle of the police station NAKED. This was ad hoc punishment for his being gay, nothing else. I see NO difference (except for duration) between his torture in Moscow (USSR) and the current torture of Manning.  Incidentally, both are gay. But in one case a branch of the US government uses methods of torture that in another case was emphatically and loudly called “torture” by the US government.
The US is slipping inexorably into the quicksand of failed statehood. There is no rationale or justification possible.

“I am also a retired military officer who has long believed that our civilian power must balance our military power.” (gerard - some “diplomatic creep"appearing in today’s (27th) London Guardian)

Right.
Begin with disinformation, attempting to sway the interpretation of the body of the message. If this thought were genuine, the hypocritical tripe would not have followed.

Which of the NAZI-types in Junior´s (GHWBushSr entourage) cabinet have been punished for the treason committed, when Mrs. Valerie Plame-Wilson was publicly identified?  Who has been punished for the treason that resulted in the deaths of several operatives imbedded in foreign governments? Comrade Gordon Liddy was conveniently misused as scapegoat for several USGov botches.

CONVERSELY, Bradley Manning is being scapegoated for serving the best interests of the United States of America, for revealing violations of the initial concept, excerpted above, “civilian power must balance our military power”. THERE IS NO BALANCE !

The statement of the former, alleged officer, reflects the trend of the last several USGov administrations, and their money-prostituted-pawns in the USMilitary, who wear stars on their shoulders. Some of whom participated in the attack on the hired-MOSSAD attack on the U.S. Citizenry on 9-11.  (Murder of a few thousand Americans and foreign visitors, in order for one of their good ole boys to receive a huge insurance payout.) All of which general officers seem to have traded their patriotism for military status and retirement income. However, increasing evidence suggests that they will receive NO retirement income, and many will not live to enjoy it.  Similarly, all of us current retirees.

To the ill-informed person who challenged me on a Tomahawk-Cruise missile having made the initial hole in the Pentagon.  Sorting thru my paper-work yesterday, I dug up a copy of a notification to a foreign intelligence agency, in which the FBI notified that no airplane, but rather, a Cruise missile made the hole in the Pentagon.  The subsequent explosion was required to take out one, specific General Officer.

Consistent refutation of accurate information is the standard behavior for pawns of the USGOV. Regardless of whether they use homey aliases from the CIA list, or not. They are obliged to refute all information that accurately describes the status quo of the USGOV, and U.S. Military activities. Especially, info about U.S. possession of UFOs, and the one “race” of extra-earthers who appear to be humans - or vice-versa. They were tagged by Adolf Hitler as “Aryans,” but were present prior to his prominence.

Taken from former State Dept. Crowleys revised statement about why he said Manning’s treatment is “ridiculous and stupid,” you can see some “diplomatic creep"appearing in today’s (27th) London Guardian:

“I am also a retired military officer who has long believed that our civilian power must balance our military power. Part of our strength comes from international recognition that the United States practises what we preach. Most of the time, we do. This strategic narrative has made us, broadly speaking, the most admired country in the world.

“To be clear, Private Manning is rightly facing prosecution and, if convicted, should spend a long, long time in prison. Having been deeply engaged in the WikiLeaks issue for many months, I know that the 251,000 diplomatic cables included properly classified information directly connected to our national interest. The release placed the lives of activists around the world at risk.

“Julian Assange and others have suggested that the release of the cables was to expose wrongdoing. Nonsense.

“While everyone can point to an isolated cable, taken as a whole, the cables tell a compelling story of “rightdoing” – of US diplomats engaged in 189 countries around the world, working on behalf of the American people, and serving broader interests as well. As a nation, we are proud of the story the cables tell, even as we decry their release.

Some questions logically arise:
1.Should a “retired military officer” make any difference in one’s views of just and unjust? What’s the relevance other than self-exoneration?
2.  “The United States practices what it preaches”?—and that as “a strategic narrative” only???? The “most admired country in the world??”
3.  ...“Is rightly facing prosecution and if convicted should spend a long, long time in prison ..”??
4.  The Leaks “placed the lives of activists (how come that strange word here?) around the world at risk.”  People killing people are “activists”?  So then how manytens of thousands of lives of “activists"have been put at risk by U.S. empire-building wars in the Middle East not only at risk, but made them extinct?
5. If we are “proud” of the release of the cable materials, why is Manning stripped not only of his clothes but of his civil rights?

gerard: “In all the argument, don’t forget—Manning has not been tried and proven guilty, and so any punishment at all is unjustified according to U.S.law.

Precisely. The US government no longer answers to the law of the land, or the people of the US. It is completely self-governing and does what it wants without even notifying the people of its intentions.

I think this is due, legally, to their having secretly declared a state of war and thus they are functioning under the War Act rules, rather than peace time rules.

It remains to be seen exactly who they have declared war against, but I assume it is the people of the USA and perhaps the rest of the world as well.

In all the argument, don’t forget—Manning has not been tried and proven guilty, and so any punishment at all is unjustified according to U.S.law.

How any individual or group FEELS about what he did or did not do is no justification for punishment.

He is being punished not because he “released State secrets” but because he exposed the hypocrisy and mendacity of what passes for “diplomacy”, whch embarrassed some haughty officials who have power over us to the degree that they can throw any of us in solitary without doing any more than accusing us of something that embarrasses them or threatens their authority.  In that sense WE ARE ALL BRADLEY MANNING, and to do nothing to prevent his abuse is to assent to it.

drbhelthi: “While I recognize the overall concept to be valid, I would like to respectfully disagree with the statement as presented.”

—-

You are of course entirely correct. I should have stated that it was the final culmination of the overthrow of the USA, for the process of conquest has been ongoing for decades.

The US ceased to exist the day GWBush was inaugurated as POTUS. Gary Mont

While I recognize the overall concept to be valid, I would like to respectfully disagree with the
statement as presented.

Prior to the end of WWII, when the NAZI-types in Germany and the NAZI-types in the USGOV planned the
first iteration of Operation Paper Clip, the end was initiated.  Perhaps the election of GHWBushJr
in 2000 was the consummation. However, the creation of the C.I.A., after the dissolution of the OSS,
was one of several increments.  That GHWBushSr was secretive “chairman of the board” of the C.I.A.
during its initial years of world-wide destruction, and the acquisition of its black-budget, is
basic.

The violating of the directive of U.S. President, Harry Truman, falsifying the histories of the
initial 200 German (NAZI) scientists, and issuing falsified U.S. Passports to them, constitutes
treason.  Establishing Werner von Braun as head scientist of NASA, and Hubertus Strughold as chief
of space medicine was criminal. 

Responsible for the deaths of 2,000 Polish-prisoner, slave-laborers at the rocket works in
Peenemuende, von Braun deserved to be tried with colleagues at the Nuremburg Trials.  Hubertus
Strughold (MD) murdered many prisoners in the Dachau Stalag with his experiments.  The goal of his
experiments was the death of the victim.  Strughold´s valuable, statistical measure was the length
of time a victim could “hold out” until death.  This criminal was elevated to “Chief of Space
Medicine,” NASA, by the criminals who overtook control of the U.S.ofA.  Strughold deserved to be
tried with colleagues in the Nuremburg Trials, for his inhuman murder of Jewish and other folk in
the Dachau Stalag.

Elevating Strughold to “American hero” status in NASA reflects the degeneration of the leadership of
NASA and the un-American “shadow” personages who pull their strings.

In Brownsville, Texas in 1985, seventeen members of an alleged hippie-family were murdered and
skinned.  During this three day period, GHWBushJr disappeared.  Upon returning, he could remember
nothing about the three days. Texas authority investigated his possible involvement, until GHWBushSr
smothered Texas authority. 
Right. Texas authority permitted itself to be smothered, by GHWBushSr.

What happened to the skins of these seventeen (17) persons? Using human skin to make lamp-shades was
a favorite of some NAZI-types in the 1940s.  Should you see a thicker, pieced lamp-shade with two
darker spots about four inches apart, you are looking at the nipples of a former person. 

When JFKSr began to implement plans to extinguish the C.I.A. and translate the Federal Reserve into
the property of the U.S. Citizenry, the shadow government of the U.S.A. showed its hand.  One mafia-
triangulator confessed in detail to his role in the JFKSr assassination. The degeneration of the
U.S.ofA. plots inversely with the rise in power of the GHWBushSr entourage, among other factors.

‘Innocent until proven guilty’ seems to have gone out of the window with the treatment of this individual.
Lets say that he is found innocent; he will have spent time in a jail for no good reason - this cannot be classed as fair and humane treatment of someone who has not be tried in a Court of Law, military or civilian.
It’s about time America made a real effort to bring their legal system into the 21st.Century.

GM: You are of course assuming that votes have an effect on who is selected for POTUS.

PatrickHenry: “You have a point.  The illusion of a democracy can be confusing, consider the lack of a paper trail in our voting system.”

Removing the vote as a means of publicly choosing candidates for public office was done in broad daylight and was as simple as installing machines to tally the votes which could be controlled via remote input.

Both Bush terms used this method to fix the numbers.

The theft of the office of POTUS was obvious to anyone who was not in denial and was bald-faced proof that the “free press” and televised media was completely under corporate military control.

The US ceased to exist the day GWBush was inaugurated as POTUS.

JohnM: “Yes you are half right - they do use waterboarding to train our troops - it’s a close as they can get to torture without torturing them.

—-

When Waterboarding is used to teach troops how to bear up under torture by an enemy, the troops are reasonably certain that their trainers will insure that no real damage is done to them during the training exercise.

The process of Waterboarding is still classified as a method of “torture” however, because it still causes the fear and anxiety it was designed to induce, even in those who know they are not life-threatened.

This is why the procedure is used - because even when you know the torturers are good friends, the process itself causes the human body to react in the predictable manner.

To claim that the procedure is not torture merely because its used as a training tool is silly. When the enemy uses the exact same procedure on captured soldiers it is absolutely considered to be torture.

If the procedure was not torture, it would be useless as a tool for a training exercise to prepare troops for the use of the same method of torture by enemy captors.

However, as I’m certain you will go to your grave repeating this fable to any who will listen, I’ll drop the topic at this point.

==========================

JohnM: “But I’ll give you this much - IF you can find ONE person that was incarcerated at the Hanoi Hilton to say that waterboarding is torture I’ll call it
torture. The one I know says it’s not and he’s the
most qualified person I know to determine what is and
isn’t torture.”

—-

I’m not positive, but it appears you want me to find someone who was Waterboard-tortured in Hanoi, who will state here in this blog that he considers the waterboarding used on him to have induced fear and anxiety, and then you will admit that waterboarding is torture. Otherwise you will continue to claim it is not torture because you know a person who was indeed waterboarded, and he claims that the procedure was not torture - that it was indeed, a not unpleasant experience causing him no anxiety or fear… and you believe this person is an absolute expert on what is and what is not torture.

Never mind. My mistake.
I thought I was communicating with an adult.
This sort of silliness is beyond my comprehension and an obvious waste of everyone’s time.

If you’re a republican, you may/will use this post as proof of my capitulation on this subject.

John M,

Don’t confuse voluntary waterboarding at a SERE school for class instruction as opposed to involuntary waterboarding.

waterboarding clearly fulfills the three additional definition criteria stated in the Convention for a deed to be labeled torture, since it is 1) done intentionally, 2) for a specific purpose and 3) by a representative of a state– in this case the US.

SERE school waterboarding is vastly different than that practiced on suspected terrorists.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/sere_training_and_torture/

(and furthermore…

military misbehavior that kills civilians has already taken hundreds of lives…

whereas exposing the truth of that misbehavior hasn’t killed any civilians…

nor anyone else either for that matter)...

“Waterboarding, is not torture, sorry, we have been
doing it as part of the training of our military for
years. As for what we got from doing it. There are
several people who were located and are in Guantanamo
because of information obtained by using it. A good
thing btw. If it took dropping water in Khalid Sheikh
Mohammeds mouth 200 times I’m all for it Christopher
Hitchens aside.”

Ask yourself a simple question John M: if it wasn’t torture why would they bother doing it? Wouldn’t it be simpler just to give the poor bastard they’re holding down a shower instead? Obviously it is torture and that’s why they do it. If it wasn’t torture they wouldn’t bother. They do it to get a person to tell them what they want to hear and to do that they have to inflict pain and suffering on that person. Therefore, obviously, it is in fact torture. As for it being used as part of training, you know as well as I do that that training is about teaching people who might be captured and yes, TORTURED, not to reveal any damaging information. In other words it is about teaching them to resist TORTURE. How this makes waterboarding not torture is beyond me.

Your comparison with Robert Hanssen is a false equivalence. Hanssen sold secrets to the Russians for $1.4 million in cash and diamonds. Manning, if indeed he even did what is alleged, did it for idealistic reasons and revealed war crimes to the American public: war crimes they have a right to know about. And in fact any soldier who witnesses war crimes is required by law to report them. Manning, we’re told, did report them and was told to forget it and shut up. He then allegedly reported them to the American people and a global audience via Wikileaks. There is therefore no comparison between Manning and Hanssen whatsoever. Hanssen was not driven by his conscience to do what he did, he was driven by greed and revealed secrets to a foreign power. Manning revealed war crimes committed by Americans to Americans because he felt duty bound to do so.

Nice try but no cigar.

PatrickHenry

from your link

While the technique has been used in various forms
for centuries, the term water board appeared in
public in a 1976 UPI report: “A Navy spokesman
admitted use of the ‘water board’ torture . . . to
‘convince each trainee that he won’t be able to
physically resist what an enemy would do to him.’”

In April 2009, the U.S. Department of Defense refused
to say whether waterboarding is still used for
training (e.g., SERE) purposes.[12][20]

RayLan

If your quoting political science theseus from
someone that intends to go to law school that’s nice

I’ll quote the aclu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=Acd4BnOhaFA&feature=fvwrel

just shows he should get an F - cause he’s wrong

John M,

Waterboarding, is not torture, sorry, we have been
doing it as part of the training of our military for
years.

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Manning didn’t give up any sources as most of this info was diplomatic chatter, not technical intel.

He most likely did embarass the hell out of Hillary and her crew and for that I would like to buy him a drink.

The second amendment protects me and my neighborhood, state and country and the jingoistic phrases like “freedom is not free” and “we have to be over there so they don’t come over here” is a pile of steaming crap.

The only phrase I believe in and has held true for me over the years is “The more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in war”

Gary Mont

You are of course assuming that votes have an effect on who is selected for POTUS.

You have a point.  The illusion of a democracy can be confusing, consider the lack of a paper trail in our voting system.

hiya again john m… article 1 section 8… of our u.s. constitution…

training the militia according to the disciplines prescribed by congress…

... (and not ineptly training the militia in misbehavior…

... according to the whims of self-serving military cronies)...

soldiers also swear to defend the u.s. constitution by following lawful orders…

... which includes reporting unlawful war activities…

... that by law must be made known…

... and that by law must be fully investigated and not be ignored…

(military procedures must also adhere to certain rules and regulations concerning deployments and re-deployments…

... and not create ways to bypass those rules and regulations)...

and the basis of our intelligence agencies are indeed rooted in…

... rich powerful wall street lawyers…

... military cronies…

... and corporate big shots including oil’s…

and one of the first oil companies involved in the roots of u.s. intelligence was standard oil…

... whose top personnel was deeply involved in u.s. intelligence groups in the 1940’s…

... standard oil had split into 34 companies…

... one being standard oil of california (socal)...

... which changed its name to chevron…

... which acquired unocal (union oil company of california)...

... whose top advisor was also a top contact for the cia and on the cia payroll in the 2000’s…

(even full circle you can’t take oil companies out of the picture)...

so why are you trying to make these facts look like some kinda joke ?...

aren’t you aware of the truth ?...

RayLan

Oh yeah here is another guy that took a bunch of
classified information and gave it to someone and is
spending time in solitary at ADX Everybody’s favorite
FBI traitor, Robert Hannsen.

http://www.westword.com/slideshow/supermax-a-look-at-
colorados-most-infamous-residents-12551/5/

“Solitary confinement as used in the American
penitentiary system is a violation of several major
international human rights treaties.”

As for all the supposed violations of international
law regarding solitary confinement. what was the
result of the hearing saying it was? Again just
authoritative expert’s” and their opinion no facts..

Gary Mont

Yes you are half right - they do use waterboarding
to train our troops - it’s a close as they can get to
torture without torturing them.

But I’ll give you this much - IF you can find ONE
person that was incarcerated at the Hanoi Hilton to
say that waterboarding is torture I’ll call it
torture. The one I know says it’s not and he’s the
most qualified person I know to determine what is and
isn’t torture.

@John M
“So IF and I again say IF manning is guilty, he’s just
as much a psychotic as McVeigh and Kaczynski. “
“So recheck your source. As for manning -
Releasing the names of US informants probably put
more people in danger “

This what you call facts? I provided the source for the paper I quoted.

http://students.washington.edu/wulr/Winter_2010/Hansen-King_Human_Rights_and_Solitary_Confinement.pdf
University of Washington Undergraduate Law Review
by
* Josh Hansen is a senior pursuing dual degrees in Political Science and Law, Societies, and Justice and plans to attend law school in the fall. This paper was his Political Science Honors thesis and was advised by Professor Jamie Mayerfeld. Josh is actively involved in the community through internships at the Defender’s Association and Senator Maria Cantwell’s office.

These are good credentials. What are yours?
The paper says,
“This monitoring is primarily administrative and done by prison administrators. “
This implies they have already been admitted into solitary -  due process is up to the administrators. Check your reading—- and your logic.

And here is a quote from a professional psychiatrist

Harmful Effects of Prolonged Isolated Confinement

By Stephen Lendman

April 19, 2010

http://www.opednews.com/populum/print_friendly.php?p=Harmful-Effects-of-Prolong-by-Stephen-Lendman-100419-213.html

Terry Kupers is a practicing psychiatrist, an expert on long-term isolated prison confinement, author of numerous articles on the subject as well as his book titled, “Prison Madness: The Mental Health Crisis Behind Bars and What We Must Do About It.” He’s also a frequent expert witness in related cases, serves as a consultant, and is currently Institute Professor in the Graduate School of Psychology at Wright Institute, Berkeley, CA. More on his work below.

Social scientists have studied the effects for years, social psychologist Hans Toch coining the term “isolation panic” to describe symptoms he observed in men he interviewed, including panic, rage, a sense of total loss of control, emotional breakdown, regressive behavior, and self-mutiliation. He distinguished between difficult but tolerable incarceration and intolerable long-term isolation.

RayLan recheck your facts: “They decide which
prisoners get transferred to solitary confinement and
when they can leave. In effect the administrators
serve as judge, jury, and executioner; they answer to
no higher authority in regards to their decisions to
place prisoners in or release them from solitary
confinement.”

Don’t know where you got it but the FACT is EVERY
cell in the supermax where psychotic criminals like
McVeigh or Kaczynski are is a solitary confinement
cell. So the administrators have no say as to which
prisoners are placed in or released from solitary
confinment - The ENTIRE prison is solitary
confinement. So recheck your source. As for manning -
Releasing the names of US informants probably put
more people in danger than McVeigh and Kaczynski
killed together.

So IF and I again say IF manning is guilty, he’s just
as much a psychotic as McVeigh and Kaczynski.

“By drbhelthi, March 28 at 8:18 pm Link to this
comment
And no - I don’t work for the CIA. There are bad
people out there that want to harm you I am thankful
every day for people that put their lives on the line
to protect this country. = John M.

Well, John M., that reads real good. Do you really
think that “there are bad people out there” ?

Can you provide the name of one person, one single
person, who is putting ones life on the line to
“protect” this country?  Unless one reads in,
“protect from honesty and truthfulness and generally,
altruism.””

Yes I really think there are bad people out there.
just like Mohamed Atta. And I won’t name one. I’ll
include everyone that has volunteered to put a US
military uniform every day and taken an oath to go
into harms way when called. I’ll also include the
people in city uniform that walk into places like the
world trade center trying to help only to have a
building fall on them. Wouldn’t you?

John M
“You need to check your facts “
Facts about what? The article isn’t about Terry Nichols.

Comparing Manning to violent psychotic criminals like McVeigh or Kaczynski is not only off topic it proves nothing since it based on an invalid comparison.

Nor does it prove the legitimacy of his treatment.

Please study

The conditions in the American supermax and solitary confinement systems require extensive monitoring and yet
are currently devoid of effective or comprehensive oversight. This monitoring is primarily administrative and done by prison administrators. They decide which prisoners get transferred to solitary confinement and when they can leave. In effect the administrators serve as judge, jury, and executioner; they answer to no higher authority in regards to their decisions to place prisoners in or release them from solitary confinement. The administrators aren’t required to hold hearings to determine whether a prisoner should be in solitary confinement. Without these hearings there are no judicial protections such as due process, lawyers, and witnesses. The Supreme Court has tolerated this process as it continues to defer to the administrators of prisons and legislators. The Court has generally refused to oversee or regulate intra-penitentiary rules and processes. It has preferred to hear only the most grievous cases of prisoner rights abuse. The Court has ruled narrowly in these cases in order to maintain a hands-off approach that protects prison independence and self-oversight. This is seen through the Court’s ruling that there is no requirement for full due process protections because the “the constitution itself does not give rise to a liberty interest (mechanism needed to activate due process protection) in avoiding transfer to more adverse conditions of confinement.”39 This removes the courts and empowers the administrators in the process for deciding the imprisonment and release of prisoners from solitary confinement. The Court was further removed through the Prison Litigation Reform Act in 1996, which “permits injunctive relief related to prison conditions but erects substantial hurdles that must be negotiated before such relief can be given.”40 These hurdles include hard- to-acquire documentation of malicious intent and prolonged abuses. The Court has continued to raise the bar with regards to what constitutes satisfactory evidence and, as a result, has empowered the administrators. The monitoring is becoming strictly administrative as the legislators restrict access to the courts and the courts continue to defer to the administrators.

So this treatment is by definition unusual, reserved for the worst criminals and it is also considered a form of punishment, which you justify as protection.

@John M
“As for your “authoritative expert’s” and their
opinions - which one of them examined Bradley
exactly?”

Solitary confinement as used in the American penitentiary system is a violation of several major international human rights treaties. This includes treaties ratified by the United States, as well as other international treaties that form a body of international human rights law that is accorded normative authority even without American ratification. The types of violations can be grouped into five main categories: health, cruel or inhumane treatment, torture, rehabilitation, and dignity. While many of the violations overlap, they maintain a substantial degree of autonomy and constitute
his clothing, and constantly bang[ed] his head against the concrete walls of his cell and cut it open on the edge of the tray slot in the solid steel cell door.”86 He also bit, hit, kicked, spit at, and threw urine and feces on his guards. Despite these behaviors, he failed to receive any adequate mental attention.
http://students.washington.edu/wulr/Winter_2010/HansenKing_Human_Rights_and_Solitary_Confinement.pdf

I am truly ashamed to be an American and have been such for many years, each moreso than the previous as I witness the ever increasing degradation of what this nation is supposed to represent. Mr. Manning sits in a hell of torture while bush, cheney, et. al., and even obama are guilty of heinous crimes in the world. I wonder who leaked those candid “family” pix from Afghan. obtained by “der Spiegel”? Think they’ll try to blame those on Brad too? Seems to me, if we’re prosecuting soldiers for exposing criminality in the ranks, shouldn’t we be looking at the military leadership that has allowed these atrocities to occur? Remember, Yamashita and Kesselring were hanged for war crimes after WWII for the actions of their underlings. Hasn’t the glorious Petraeus also overseen such behavior? Perhaps eventually this imperialist cesspool will succomb to another form of coalition which will conduct it’s own Nuermberg and bring our noble and exalted leaders to justice not only for their crimes but also for their brazen hypocrisy! FREE BRADLEY MANNING!!!!!

John M: “And although you think it is cavalier I’ll say it again since it has not seemed to sink in.
Waterboarding is and has been used for years in
training our military. And although I found it extremely unpleasant, the 20 mile march and obstacle
Course weren’t torture either.

——

Methinks yer being just a tad facetious here John.
(Not a personal attack - merely an observation)

The reason that Waterboarding is and has been used for years in training our military, is to prepare the soldiers to survive similar methods of TORTURE without breaking, should they be captured by the enemy of the day.

If the enemy uses Waterboarding on captured US soldiers as a means of extracting information and confessions, I’d think it would be considered as toture by those captured soldiers.

And no - I don’t work for the CIA. There are bad people out there that want to harm you I am thankful every day for people that put their lives on the line to protect this country. = John M.

Well, John M., that reads real good. Do you really think that “there are bad people out there” ?

Can you provide the name of one person, one single person, who is putting ones life on the line to “protect” this country?  Unless one reads in, “protect from honesty and truthfulness and generally, altruism.”

“By RayLan, March 28 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment
John M
” I don’t see
you crying for any of them.
” You’re dodging the critical facts.
They aren’t the topic of discussion here. If they
have been given due process without the months of
solitary and psychological abuse Bradley is being
subjected to, it is not an issue.  Protection?
Protection from what? And who exactly is being
protected? The corrupt administration no doubt.
You’re very cavalier about what constitutes torture
in the face of all authoritative expert opinion.”

RayLan   You need to check your facts -  Terry
Nichols was held FOR YEARS before he came to trial.
The bombing occurred April 19, 1995 Timothy McVeigh
was tried first and put to death June 11, 2001.
Nichols trial ended December 24, 1997 he was held for
over 2 years.

Ted Kaczynski was arrested on April 3, 1996 On
January 7, 1998, Kaczynski attempted to hang himself.
Kaczynski was able to avoid the death penalty by
pleading guilty to all the government’s charges, on
January 22, 1998.

This is not unusual at all

As for protection, protection from other inmates for
one, pedophiles don’t do well in general prison
populations they become targets. People thought to be
traitors don’t do well in military general
populations they also tend to become targets. He’s
also on a suicide watch which is why he was issued
special sleeping gear.

As for your “authoritative expert’s” and their
opinions - which one of them examined Bradley
exactly? I’m not “dodging the “critical facts” as you
say, I’m addressing them. You seem to be either
making them up or confusing OPINION for facts.

btw if you feel the administration is corrupt you lay
that one at the feet of Eric Holder and Obama since
they ARE the administration.

And although you think it is cavalier I’ll say it
again since it has not seemed to sink in.
Waterboarding is and has been used for years in
training our military. And although I found it extremely unpleasant, the 20 mile march and obstacle
Course weren’t torture either.

By PatrickHenry: “If Obama doesn’t show some leadership soon and continues to allow this torture against Manning it will lose him votes next election.”

You are of course assuming that votes have an effect on who is selected for POTUS.

Do you really believe that a corporate controlled government, capable of the sort of atrocities the US has perpetrated in the last ten years alone, would allow a simple thing like the Vote to interfere with their plans of global profiteering??

The only reason Obama was selected for the office was the fact that the Billionaires Club knew that nobody was going to vote Republican after Bush. Obama is simply a republcian in democrats pants. He will follow the orders he receives from wall street just as diligently as Bush did.

Do you actually believe that such an organization as the US Incorporated Federal Government would allow anyone uncontrolled and honest to exist in their ranks and threaten their master’s plans of global conquest??

Pfc. Bradley Manning’s treatment is specifically designed to send a message to anyone else on the inside who has considered speaking out or disclosing corporate secrets.

When the facists tire of torturing Pfc. Bradley Manning, they will “suicide” him. They will not allow him to walk free ever again. This is the reason for his current designation as suicide-prone.

John M
” I don’t see
you crying for any of them.
“
You’re dodging the critical facts.
They aren’t the topic of discussion here. If they have been given due process without the months of solitary and psychological abuse Bradley is being subjected to, it is not an issue.  Protection? Protection from what? And who exactly is being protected? The corrupt administration no doubt.
You’re very cavalier about what constitutes torture in the face of all authoritative expert opinion.

diamond - So the fascist gang took over after the
civil war? Interesting. But you are right that
neither Obama or Holder were alive at this time. But
they are “alive” and “in charge” now so take it up
with them.

Waterboarding, is not torture, sorry, we have been
doing it as part of the training of our military for
years. As for what we got from doing it. There are
several people who were located and are in Guantanamo
because of information obtained by using it. A good
thing btw. If it took dropping water in Khalid Sheikh
Mohammeds mouth 200 times I’m all for it Christopher
Hitchens aside.

Torture is not lawful true. I have a friend that
spent time in the Hanoi Hilton he can explain torture
to a t Christopher Hitchens could try any of those methods and would probably change his miind about
being waterboarded. 3 hots and a cot is not on the
list.

Again why do people like you resort to personal
attacks when you disagree with someone’s point of
view? The name calling on this forum is almost as
entertaining as it is childish.

And no - I don’t work for the CIA. There are bad
people out there that want to harm you I am thankful
every day for people that put their lives on the line
to protect this country.

RayLan   - Solitary confinement is NOT torture -
sorry it’s not. It has been used for centuries for various purposes. Examples include Protection from
other prisoners and control of the prison population
among others. What you may want to look at is the
super max where Terry Nichols, Unabomber Ted
Kaczynski, shoe bomber Richard Reid are all held in
solitary confinement, let out of their cells 1 hour
out of every 24 with no contact with other prisoners.
It’s the way EVERY prisoner in the place is held so
no it’s not unusual, not at all. & btw I don’t see
you crying for any of them.

sallysense - makes no sense. Manning is no
whistleblower. IF he is found guilty he should hang
just as the Rosenbergs did.

“pfc bradley manning is brave enough to stand up
against unconstitutional criminal activities being
carried out in the middle east!...”

Which unconstitutional activities do you refer to?

And I would love for you to point out the big oil ceo
that is part of the “basis” of US intelligence..

“and saddening is the basis of our u.s. intelligence
agencies…

... that are rooted in rich powerful wall street
lawyers!...

... and military cronies!...

... and top personnel of big corporations such as
oil’s!...”

What a laugh

hiya john m’n'all… it saddens me to see folks who don’t know any better call for harm to be done to whistleblowers who are exposing the truth!...

and saddening is the basis of our u.s. intelligence agencies…

... that are rooted in rich powerful wall street lawyers!...

... and military cronies!...

... and top personnel of big corporations such as oil’s!...

... whose best interests and ulterior motives are self-serving business deals…

....... and not truth and human decency!...

....... nor our country’s and people’s well-being!...

....... (just look around our country and overseas and see the facts yourself)...

pfc bradley manning is brave enough to stand up against unconstitutional criminal activities being carried out in the middle east!...

... unconstitutional criminal activities done under the name of our government…

... unconstitutional criminal activities under the eyes of intelligence agencies…

(after unconstitutional criminal activities were reported and ignored by some u.s. higher-ups)...

pfc bradley manning is more of an american patriot than all those higher-ups put together!...

so where do the loyalties lie for those who call for harm to be done to pfc manning?...

... (where is this lynch mob mentality coming from ?)...

....... the cover-up manipulators who pass it on from brain to brain among the masses ?...

....... or those who don’t know any better and just believe what the cover-up manipulators say ?...

....... or somewhere else ?...

best wishes’n'ways for today to dawn on!...

http://www.bradleymanning.org

More facts for John M

Solitary confinement IS torture. You might get a better grip on that reality if you were locked up alone for months.

Please study the following:

Let’s review Manning’s detention over the last nine straight months: 23-hour/day solitary confinement; barred even from exercising in his cell; one hour total outside his cell per day where he’s allowed to walk around in circles in a room alone while shackled, and is returned to his cell the minute he stops walking; forced to respond to guards’ inquiries literally every 5 minutes, all day, everyday; and awakened at night each time he is curled up in the corner of his bed or otherwise outside the guards’ full view.  Is there anyone who doubts that these measures — and especially this prolonged forced nudity — are punitive and designed to further erode his mental health, physical health and will?  As The Guardian reported last year, forced nudity is almost certainly a breach of the Geneva Conventions; the Conventions do not technically apply to Manning, as he is not a prisoner of war, but they certainly establish the minimal protections to which all detainees — let alone citizens convicted of nothing — are entitled
http://www.civilianism.com/futurism/2011/03/bradley-manning-still-treated-badly-in-prison/

@John M
Well your version of the facts needs some improvement.

“Wikileaks has demonstrated that our rulers are rotten to the core and the war is a joke and the dead are not statistics but have been murdered by us and the blood is on all our hands.
We are complicit and Bradley Manning is the only one who stood up for what is right, what is necessary.
We should not desert him, if he must be incarcerated then they shouldn’t be torturing him (and torture it is - no excercise and ‘enforced’ chemicalisation).
http://www.boingboing.net/2010/12/15/report-wikileaks-lea.html

diamond   Again I apologize for the spelling feature on
my ipod - at times I type one thing and it replaces
words and I can see it sends you into a snit. My bad.
Solitary confinement is not unusual look it up. As
for America being taken over by a fascist gang take
that up with Obama and Eric Holder. Is it lawful YES.
is it just YES. And I don’t have to change places
with him to justify being let out to exercise 1 hour
a day sleeping for 8 more and spending 15 in a cell
while still being in contact with his defense team.
As for waterboarding well I don’t agree. We’ve been
doing it to our own pilots for years they call it
training.  Also if you think Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
is a so-called ‘terrorists’ he tried to plead guilty
to the military tribunal but Holder wanted a show
trial. He IS a terrorist.”

1. The fascist gang took America over after the Civil War when Northern and Southern capitalists decided to patch up their differences and enslave both black AND white workers and make an America that suited their needs and their insatiable appetite for war and profit. I don’t believe either Obama or Holder were alive at this time.

2. I don’t give a shit what they call waterboarding, it’s torture. Christopher Hitchens, chief apologist for the Iraq war and any amount of torture soon changed his mind after he volunteered to be waterboarded. After, he declared it was torture, as any sensible person would have known without actually having to have it done to them.

3. Torture is not lawful. Ronald Reagan signed the Convention Against Torture in the eighties and America is bound by it. Solitary confinement and forced nudity were used in Abu Ghraib precisely because they were and are torture so your argument that they are not torture is idiotic. These are known techniques for breaking and dehumanizing people so that you can get them to say and do whatever you want.

4. The only thing I need to know about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is that he was waterboarded 200 times or more. If, at the end of that, he was prepared to admit he was a terrorist, Mickey Mouse, the man in the moon, Marcel Marceau or Johhny Depp could anyone really be surprised? The point is that any confessions he made and any information he gave were obtained by torture and are therefore tortured evidence and inadmissible, which is why none of the CIA/Pentagon psychos want to have any of the people they have in Guantanamo put on trial in a normal court. Most if not all of their evidence is tortured evidence. Having perfected their techniques on Muslims they assure us are terrorists, with no evidence to back it up, they are now only too happy to use them on their own soldiers.

5. You say all of this is just: I say you’re one sandwich short of a picnic and totally lack empathy. You don’t happen to work for the CIA, do you?

PatrickHenry not forgetting at all - I keep referencing
the fact that he has not yet been found guilty meaning
there is a presumption of innocence. The trial will
settle matters.

California Ray:  Thanks for the well-written suggested sample letter to Bradley Manning.

John M,

Lets not forget Manning has not been to trial yet.

All this ‘punishment’ is presumptive.

Fortunately we all have had a glimpse of what was released and none of it rose to the level of grave damage.  Much of it should not have been classified at all.

Manning was a PFC, his officer in charge should be sharing the cell next to him.

gerard.  Sorry my ipod didn’t meet your spelling
demands my bad. Sorry no I don’t consider it un-American
to think about the safety of a prisoner.  Solitary means
he doesn’t have a room mate or free time with other
prisoners. He is not cut off from human contact. As
for the constitution the term is Cruel and unusual
not Cruel or unusual.

RayLan   You may see it as glib but please get your
facts straight. He is allowed out daily to exercise.
And you KNOW what type of bed he has and you are sure
it’s not proper? Right. Btw familiarize yourself with
the trial process this is not a long time and if it
were his lawyers can argue in court that his right to
a speedy trial is being denied - no such motion has
been filed that I know of. Or are you saying his
representation is incompetent?

PatrickHenry   I hope he is found not guilty also as
long as he is not guilty. If he is guilty I still
hope for the death sentence - he can join the
Rosenbergs.

diamond   Again I apologize for the spelling feature on
my ipod - at times I type one thing and it replaces
words and I can see it sends you into a snit. My bad.
Solitary confinement is not unusual look it up. As
for America being taken over by a fascist gang take
that up with Obama and Eric Holder. Is it lawful YES.
is it just YES. And I don’t have to change places
with him to justify being let out to exercise 1 hour
a day sleeping for 8 more and spending 15 in a cell
while still being in contact with his defense team.
As for waterboarding well I don’t agree. We’ve been
doing it to our own pilots for years they call it
training.  Also if you think Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
is a so-called ‘terrorists’ he tried to plead guilty
to the military tribunal but Holder wanted a show
trial. He IS a terrorist.

To RayLan and diamond I’ve found throughout my life
that people with limited intelligence and myopic
views always resort to using words like moron and
simple-minded to personally attack people they
disagree with.

Thank you, Marjorie, for representing your profession’s responsibility to stand up to institutional illegalities.

My Senator Wyden says he is going to “look into” the Manning case—but that because he is on the intelligence committee he can’t say anything substantive about his position on it.

Readers, what do your Senators have to say about it?

John M: FYI, “Crewel” is a kind of embroidery.
  According to what studies have been done, solitary confinement usually causes people to suffer from various mental and physical symptoms they did not have before they were thus confined.  Believe it or not, for human beings, positive social contact is a
fundamental need, like food. 
  If prisoners have to be put in solitary confinement to protect them from other prisoners, there is something extremely wrong with that prison.
  There are no circumstances giving some people the right to rob other people of mental and physical health.  In your statement you show some dangerous signs of being “un-American.”  I would ask you to please refer to (what is left of) the Constitution.

[date], 2011¶Pfc. Bradley E. Manning¬C/O Quantico Base Brig¬Marine Corps Base
Quantico¬3247 Elrod Avenue¬Quantico, VA 22134-5114¶Dear Private
Manning:¶In these difficult times, please remember that you are in our
thoughts.¶Although you are being detained under harsh conditions, please try to
keep your spirits up.¶Face each hour bravely, because you are not
forgotten.¶Sincerely,¬[your name]

Make that “Dear Private Manning,” not “Dear Mr. Manning.”

[date], 2011

Pfc. Bradley E. Manning
C/O Quantico Base Brig
Marine Corps Base Quantico
3247 Elrod Avenue
Quantico, VA 22134-5114

Dear Mr. Manning:
In these difficult times, please remember that you are in our thoughts.
Although you are being detained under harsh conditions, please try to keep your spirits up. 
Face each hour bravely, because you are not forgotten.
Sincerely,
Very truly yours,

[your name]
cc:  ________, Member of Congress

@John M
“Solitary confinement is not torture in some
cases it’s not even crewel it protects targets from
other prisoners. It’s sure not unusual. “

Well that was glib. Having no activities,not being allowed out to exercise and not being given a proper bed is one of the severest punishments, when it is extended for such a long period of time, especially without being formally tried.  If you did it to a dog you would be investigated by the SPCA.

It is not constitutionally normal, because it violates due process.
You have a right to your opinion, regardless of how inhuman and simple-minded.

John M,

I for one hope Manning is tried before a civilian court and found non guilty.

He can then cash in on his celebrity and make so money on his suffering.

Whatever his fate he will be remembered, whereas you won’t.

Dear friends, what are you complaining about? Living in the USA is already a torture, an ecomomic terrrorist torture of paying like 10 different bills, where most families are taxed to death, billed to death and not to mention the moral, verbal and emotional terrorism, rape and abuse that american citizens feel on a daily basis by the police, the courts, and worst of all the lies of CNN, FOX news, Univision and the media.  Remember that being lied to is a form of moral and psychological torture.

Americans are tortured every day, not physically but morally, economically and spiritually which is a lot worse than physical abuse and torture

.

diamond: The USA has been torturing and killing people since 1600, go to http://www.brianwillson.com to find out about the dark truths of US Imperialism, and how USA was founded as an Imperialist Military Nazi Empire with the ideology of ethnic cleansing and genocide of the British Empire and ancient fascist empires. We have to be realist and accept this painful truth that the USA was founded as a racist, fascist killer empire by default in 1776

.

And speaking of “complicity in torture,” see Glenn Greenwald’s latest at Salon.com on the latest Obama appointment.

“Personally if he is found guilty I hope he is put to
death. Solitary confinement is not torture in some
cases it’s not even crewel it protects targets from
other prisoners. It’s sure not unusual.”

Am I surprised that a shallow, unjust, ignorant moron like you can’t spell ‘cruel’? No. I’m not. And if you think Manning’s treatment is normal that only proves how moronic you really are. In a third world dictatorship his treatment would be normal so are you telling me you’ve finally faced the fact that America is turning into one? America has been taken over by a fascist gang and this is how they treat anyone they perceive to be their enemy. Is it lawful, is it just? No, it’s not. And if you think it’s all so fine and dandy why don’t you change places with him just to satisfy your mind that it’s not torture? What’s the matter? Cat got your tongue? And while you’re at it let them waterboard you 200 times like they did to various so called ‘terrorists’ so we can all decide if that’s torture or not. If they did it to you, you would confess that you had sex with a goat, or anything else they wanted you to say. Which is the point and why tortured evidence is not permitted in a real court of law. But don’t worry your poor little head about that, you might strain your brain.

Personally if he is found guilty I hope he is put to
death. Solitary confinement is not torture in some
cases it’s not even crewel it protects targets from
other prisoners. It’s sure not unusual.

Too many psychologists in the employ of the Defense Department selling “learned helplessness” and other “refined” torture techniques.  Another sad result of “privatization of prisons.”  More bang for the buck? 

As to “justice for all”—the United States now reeks of hypocrisy and legalized crime.

Torture is the moral and ethical equivalent of Pandora’s Box. Only without the hope.

First, we started unapologetically torturing suspected terrorists. Now we’re
unapologetically torturing service members suspected of leaking classified
information to the news media. Where will we draw the line and stop torturing
suspected wrongdoers?

Its scheduled, the next round of protests in Washington.

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/462/358/Day_of_Rage_Scheduled_in_Washington_D.C._for_June_30,_2011.html

If Obama doesn’t show some leadership soon and continues to allow this torture against Manning it will lose him votes next election.

This book will be very helpful for me.

Let’s see the people joining the military take an oath to uphold the constitution
and the politicians take an oath to ignore it?

A little story and then a question:

“The Mexican American war had barely begun the summer of 1846 when a writer, Henry David Thoreau who lived in Concord, Massachusetts refused to pay his Massachusetts poll tax denouncing the Mexican war. He was put in jail and spent the night there. His friends, without his consent, paid his tax and he was released. Two years later he gave a lecture ‘Resistance to Civil Government’ which was the printed as an essay, ‘Civil disobedience’.

His friend, and fellow writer Ralph Waldo Emerson, agreed but thought it futile to protest. When Emerson visited Thoreau in jail and asked, ‘What are you doing in there?” it was reported that Thoreau asked, “What are you doing out there?”

A question everyone should be asking themselves re Manning’s incarceration.

Another question.

If the fourteenth amendment states this-

“No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges of immunities of citizens of the US; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law; nor deny ANY person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law” how can it be that Manning can have his rights denied in so egregious a manner? Does being a soldier mean that you are not protected by the fourteenth amendment? If so, it seems a funny reward for serving your country and exposing war crimes.