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Capitalism Means Never Having to Say You’re Sorry

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Posted on Oct 1, 2009
capitalismalovestory.com

By Peter Z. Scheer

Editor’s note: “Capitalism: A Love Story” opens nationwide Friday, Oct. 2. Rated R for language / 120 minutes.

Michael Moore’s latest look at what’s wrong (and right) with America is a lot better—and a lot more radical—than some of the brie-eaters reviewing it think. It’s a cry from the soul of a man who sees the whole country turning into his hometown hell of Flint, Mich.

That seems like egomania to some. David Denby of The New Yorker writes that Moore is “mesmerized by Flint’s tragedies.” But Moore is right. This recession, with its rampant foreclosures, imploding auto industry, greedy fat cats and dazed and desperate commoners, has been highly reminiscent of the director’s first film, the classic “Roger and Me.”

The Village Voice calls “Capitalism: A Love Story” a “point-by-point retread” of that documentary, but that’s not entirely fair. Moore looks to his 1989 film as a historical document of the moment when the first shock waves of modern steroidal capitalism could be felt. But Moore doesn’t just return to his roots, he comes to view—with the help of the Catholic Church—capitalism as a fundamentally evil system that has destroyed American democracy and demands a revolution.

As someone who might have been tempted by popularity and success, Moore deserves credit for not resting on his millions and producing a safe pop documentary, something mildly provocative but ultimately palatable. Instead, “Capitalism” is a call to class warfare, with Moore cleverly dividing the classes into the top 1 percent and everyone else, including himself.

That’s not a divide of his making. The American economy over the last 30 years has showered the richest 1 percent with wealth at the expense of the rest of us. Sure, we’ve heard it before, but Moore digs up some dirt that breathes new life into the statistic—something that happens a lot in “Capitalism.”

The film’s detractors say it’s over the top and unfocused. Denby writes that it’s “not a good movie or a coherent exposition of the meltdown” and “By the end of the movie, baffled, [Moore] resorts to his old gags.”

But Michael Moore is not a clown. He is a wildly successful innovator whose “gags” are usually quite effective. Moore begins the movie by placing the audience inside a home undergoing foreclosure. The residents huddle together while sheriff’s deputies surround the house and literally beat the door down. The scene resembles a horror movie, complete with splintering wood and booming sound, but it is inescapably real and, ultimately, very sad.

It has been all too easy for the chattering class (readers of The New Yorker, perhaps?) to ignore the suffering of the average American in this crisis. News coverage dwells on the rebounding Dow, while food banks run out of stores. Moore’s portraits of down-on-their luck Americans are haunting.

True to form, the movie is also quite funny. In a flash of genius, Moore dubs a classic Hollywood Jesus, who refuses to heal the poor and demands deregulation. Jesus actually has a big role in the movie, which is much more religious than you might expect. For Moore, this is a moral question, one that was answered 2,000 years ago by a god who loved the poor above all and felt very different about the rich. The revelation that capitalism is evil doesn’t come from the director, but his bishop.

In the end, Moore does not have nearly enough time to make a full indictment of capitalism. He could have gone the Ken Burns route and taken over PBS for a month and a half to prosecute a tedious case against profit. Instead, he weaves together a few horrifying examples, casts new light on familiar ground and hammers away at the conclusion that our economic way of life inevitably destroys everything it touches.

The purpose of this movie is not to educate so much as it is to inspire. The workers squatting at the Republic Windows and Doors factory in Chicago, whom you may recall from the 2008 election, became symbols for what might be achieved if we band together and resist. Moore presents Barack Obama’s historic election in a similar fashion—the remarkable accomplishment of millions of Americans defying the oligarchs. But Obama’s role in this mess makes for a gaping void in “Capitalism.”

Moore completely lets the president off the hook. He criticizes Obama’s top economic adviser, Larry Summers. He makes the case that Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner (conspicuously labeled “2009-present”) has been an abject failure at everything he has done. He even points out that the financial industry tried to buy Obama with millions in donations.

But just as he is about to swing, Moore drops his bat, interrupting his own argument with footage from that memorable night when Barack Obama became the first black man elected president. It’s a bit of a time warp. We’re supposed to be mad at the people working for Obama now, but when we think of the man in charge, we should focus on the election.

Another deficiency is Moore’s plea at the end of the movie for the audience to join him in resistance. But how exactly? At least Glenn Beck had the nerve to organize a march. The movie also drags in places, and the inexplicable appearance of character actor Wallace Shawn is simply distracting.

It’s not a perfect movie, but it is essential for these times. “Capitalism: A Love Story” will make your blood boil. Maybe, Michael Moore hopes, you’ll do something about it.


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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, October 26, 2009 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

Fewkes, October 24 at 12:07am,

I am a strong supporter of Michael Moore.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 23, 2009 at 11:48 pm Link to this comment

In the third year of the independence of America, several men created the
Articles of CONfederation.  It was the precursor of that paper canoe, the U.S.
CONstitution.  The Preamble gives testimony that all people who lived in these
territories were included.  The evolution of equality has taken its price as it was
not in the natural makeup of humankind, who are included in the animal
kingdom, to see all people as equal.  It took a long time for their genetic
makeup to develop societies where people respected each other.  Unfortunate
as it was for the indigenous people who lived in this country at the time was
created, some of whom will eternally smart about it, another country, the
United States, was formed.  If one were, with clear eyes, to read history, which
is a record of humanity as far as it is known, one would see, intuit, and
understand that humankind, everywhere, not only in the United States, have
usurped land settled by others.  Every single country in the world has had that
as its history.  Even natives to this country of America commandeered and
supplanted others in their history.

Researched accounts of indigenous peoples of the now known country,
America, clearly shows the tendency of mankind, seen in the form of these
native people, to take what was not theirs.  For example, on the western plains
of North America, pre?Columbian intertribal warfare existed long before horses
and guns showed up and tribes warred against one another for CONtrol of
territory and its resources, as well as for captives and honor. Indian forces
walked on foot to attack rival tribes who not uncommonly resided in walled
villages. These battles could last for days, and those killed could number in the
hundreds.  Once guns and horses appeared, both Plains Indian culture and the
character and meaning of war changed dramatically. The horse allowed rapid
and longer distance raids to appropriate goods.

Bands of Lakota Sioux moved westward from the Eastern Woodlands and waged
war against Plains residents to secure access to buffalo for subsistence and
trade with Euro?Americans. Lakota Sioux populations, unlike most Indian
groups, increased in the 18th and early 19th centuries. This added growth
demanded greater access to buffalo and more territory.

Another practice, of the Eastern Woodland tribes, was “mourning war,” which
usually began at the plea of women who had lost a son or husband and desired
the group’s male warriors to capture individuals from other groups who could
replace those they had lost. Captives might help maintain a stable population
or appease the grief of bereaved relatives: if the women of the tribe so
demanded, captives would be ritually tortured, sometimes to death if the
captive was deemed unfit for adoption into the tribe.

Self-righteousness and sanctimony strikes me as disingenuous.  The CONstant
denigration of the white population is pretentious and offensive.  Humans
everywhere regardless of their race have the same faults and virtues.

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By Fewkes, October 23, 2009 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment

Michael Moore is trying to raise the alarm about the dangers of unregulated
capitalism.  It’s easy for some people to parade their view of his movie as his
errors of judgement.

Michael is trying to expose the other side of the story, the one the mainstream
media won’t cover.  He is telling the story of the pain and suffering of real
American human beings at the hands businesses that put profits before people
and a government that puts campaign contributions before their constituents.

Its time for the writers looking for an easy story to wake up and start seeing what
is really going on.

Fewkes

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By TAO Walker, October 13, 2009 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment

Ozark Michael’s avowed allegiance, here below, to the U.S. CONstitution is no doubt as sincere as it is apparent.  So he’ll likely be loathe to acknowledge the plain fact it has been nothing but a ‘paper canoe’ from the git-go….one theamericanpeople’ve nevertheless been CONned into pushing slap-happily up Shit Crick all the way to the ‘fall-line.’

Until now here in these latter days those officials elected and sworn to “protect and defend” the poor damned thing are actively shredding it in response to the “global” imperatives of corporate commercialism.  They’ve also in the fatal name of “national security” systematically stripped the hapless subject/citizenry of what once passed for ‘paddles.’

So those captive folks hoping to find shelter, from this motherfucker of all shit-storms already breaking over their battered and befuddled heads, under their founding document’s tattered remains (nevermind actually riding the thing to anyplace worthwhile), are certainly in for an extended bout of extremely foul CONditions.  There just ain’t any “....easy way out,” either.

Meantime, us free wild Native survivors of the Turtle Island holocaust will not be leaving for other parts.  We’ve already weathered the worst “western civilization” has to throw at us.  We will be waiting and watching, though, while our tame Sisters and Brothers here get the come-uppance they’ve brought down upon their institutionally helpless “individual” selfs.

When whoever’s left of ‘em is finally sick-and-tired of being sick, and tired, we’ll be here with The Medicine for what ails them….which is, in a word, their domestication CONtraption itself. The remedy is in The Tiyoshpaye Way.

Cold-turkey Day is fast upon us, Kids.  Just your hard luck to be the ones to get caught with the CONsequences of your greatgrandparents’ mistakes….though you’ve been mindlessly repeating all the worst of those yourownselfs.

Still, that’s better than no luck at all, innit?

HokaHey!

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By OzarkMichael, October 13, 2009 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

Oh, flip through the photos on that website to see the building better.

I went online and bought some Knights of Pythias junk. very cheap.

Turns out they made a lot of junk. Know why? Its because they started a primitive sort of life insurance plan for members. It spent more than it took in, plus, during a big recession and stock crash all of its investments fell flat(sound familiar?). To make some money they started to make all sorts of junk that members could wear at meetings and have at their homes. So the supply is bountiful.

Please dont bid against me on ebay! I am buying the cool KoP book for myself, watch fob for wife, and an official KoP seal stamper thingie. all items added together will be spending only $40.00… eheheh cheap and fun!

It is for friends. If you are a friend, drop me an email at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

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By OzarkMichael, October 13, 2009 at 12:42 pm Link to this comment

The mystery town from our mystery trip?Found it.

I used online arial photos of the small towns in the vicinity until I found the likely suspect, then went to the town ‘online’ and there it was.

My mistake was in thinking that the Knights of Pythias built it, when in fact it was a stagecoach stop and hotel long before. That is the name it goes by. The KoP added the 3rd floor.

The following photo was the first view I had of the buiding:

http://www.ohiochannel.org/your_state/remarkable_ohio/marker_details.cfm?marker_id=555&file_id=108669

elisalouisa, thank you for the compliment, but i dont travel very often. Most of my adventures happen right here at home.

Will check out Mr Moon’s book sometime.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 13, 2009 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

When one has extensive discussion and animated arguments with a rock, sanity of one over takes the other!

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By Night-Gaunt, October 12, 2009 at 11:16 pm Link to this comment

Thanx for the link Shenonymous! As for ThomasG, I have been talking about much the same thing for a long time. They are my enemies too.

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By ThomasG, October 12, 2009 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, October 12 at 2:28pm,

Night-Gaunt said: ”...new ghost towns being created by our continuing economic disintegration.”

ThomasG’s answer:  The ghost towns you talk about are the effect of deindustrialization and Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Trade Agreements that for cheap Asian labor and short-term profit sold domestic markets down the river with the sociopathic fervor of unregulated capitalism. 

It is odd that Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS who are responsible for the problem would be talking as if the effect was rooted in some other bygone and unrelated cause, when in fact both the cause and effect lies with the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement.

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By Shenonymous, October 12, 2009 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

And for the final piece de resistance, here you are folks…..!!!!!
http://www.pythias.org/
For some unknown reason, this site might take you to a google search page,
but the first entry is the website for the Knights.  It has the same address, just
click on the entry title and off you go.
Happy lodging.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 12, 2009 at 3:15 pm Link to this comment

Try this website http://politicalgraveyard.com/group/knights-pythias.html to
see the membership by state.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 12, 2009 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

Try Madison, Ohio.  Also if anyone is really interested, there are several pieces
of Knights of Phythias memorabilia on Ebay.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, October 12, 2009 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael:
‘Yeah, Anarcissie, the issue of “white male only” does take the glory off the idealism which i hoped to find. ...’

I think the idealism was there; it was just a bit limited, maybe necessarily.  We are not very far, culturally, from humans who ran around in little bands banging each other with clubs and stones.  Genetically, we are the same.  Maybe it was a good life, but we stepped out of Nature—or maybe we were kicked out, as in Genesis.  And now all we can say is “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”  Time for some careful negotiations….

As for the Knights of Pythias, they still exist and have a couple of web sites.  They probably know about their building in Ohio.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, October 12, 2009 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

As a side note, there are web sites devoted to the new ghost towns being created by our continuing economic disintegration. Sad but true. Beautifully photographed though. In some ways culture that has become a form of art.

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By OzarkMichael, October 12, 2009 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

After checking some maps i think the small Ohio town is north or northeast of Alliance, Ohio. i remember either not finding or being disappointed by a very small lake nearby. I remember seeing the little airport on the map but never actually finding an airport. Yeah, i got so truly lost that we didnt see the things we were supposed to see, and found something else instead.

Not that it matters but sometimes one of you(especially Shenonymous) finds things on the internet when i cant.

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By OzarkMichael, October 12, 2009 at 9:19 am Link to this comment

Yeah, Anarcissie, the issue of “white male only” does take the glory off the idealism which i hoped to find.

From a good website that i found but right now cant find the link again:

The Supreme Lodge convention of 1869 was significant for two events.  The petition of a group of Philadelphia Blacks to form a Pythian Lodge was rejected by a vote of 24-13.  It would reject similar petitions at the conventions of 1871, 1878, and 1888.  It was not unusual in doing so; all fraternal orders of that time limited their membership to white males only.  By 1875, Blacks had founded their own Order and as Carnahan notes “Colored bodies had taken the name and were working and claiming to be Knights of Pythias.”

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 12, 2009 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

Cut and paste was amusing in the beginning, but now it seems most pathetic and annoying, which I suppose is the purpose plus possibly a propagated distraction from issues at hand? In the very least a sucking from the life blood of reason by an imbecile of extreme enormity!

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By elisalouisa, October 12, 2009 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

It’s amazing OzarkMichael, my take on your post was the trip,  Should you have
enough of these adventures you could write a book like William Least Heat-
Moon’s “Blue Highways”. When traveling, Mr. Moon loved to go to the local cafe
where the number of local business calendars on the walls was an indication of
the food quality. Four calendars meant four stars as to food. 
Another thing I picked up on as to your post was the empty building, how sad. Yet, this is happening in many areas of our country. Service organizations such as the “Knights of Pythias” are fast becoming a thing of the past.

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By ThomasG, October 12, 2009 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Now that it is established by your lack of denial that you work in a Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room—questions arise:

1) With regard to the issue of shift work in the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room, how many different shifts of people working under the title of Shenonomous are there in the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room?

2) How many other employees work in the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room? 

3) What are their titles, shifts and pay for employees of the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room? 

4) Are the employees in the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room full time employees? ——with health benefits or do Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room employees work through a Temp Agency?

5) Will your minders let you continue working in the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room now that you have let the cat out of the bag?

6) Do you consider working in a Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room a good job, or a bad job?

7) What are the working conditions like for you and your fellow Right-Wing sophist and propagandist employees in the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room?

8) Is there a lot of pressure to perform, or is there a laid back atmosphere in the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room?

My guess is that working in the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room is pretty tense and minders are monitoring you pretty closely, is this a correct assessment of the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room working conditions?

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, October 12, 2009 at 8:20 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael:
’... Interestingly enough, the idea of the Knights of Pythias was to reach across differences and divides after the American Civil War.  It was a good idea then, and it wouldnt hurt us to reach across our differences now. That is my daydream for today.’

The Knights of Pythias are still around; see Wikipedia.

I suspect there was a considerable desire to avoid gang, tribal, ethnic and religious war in the United States in the later 19th century, given the losses of the Civil War and the influx of immigrants from Europe, many from nations with a tradition of hating the other nations around them.  Communal war is a serious impediment to commerce, capitalism, and general well-being (unless, of course, communal war is your thing).  Hence the invention of these artificial, non-denominational tribes.  The greatest contribution, though, was made by people who weren’t allowed to join: the African slaves and their descendants, who constituted the great Other against whom the White Men could define themselves as a coherent “race”, and against whom they could vent their urge to violence from time to time, instead of against each other.  As far as I know, all the fraternal orders excluded persons of color.

When the descendants of the slaves started to decline their historical role in the 1960s a lot of the social order started to come loose and flap in the wind, and that is where we are today.  But I don’t think this means we are going to fall apart into violently warring tribes.  While the people don’t seem to have much affection for the Bill of Rights, they have even less for fascist overlords and race war.  At least, I hope they do.

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By Night-Gaunt, October 12, 2009 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

You see ThomasG only others can identify who we may be not ourselves. Now if our information tells you we are “your label here” then so be it. I am just glad that such people as yourself aren’t in charge. But then maybe they are “insert delusion/ideology here” with the kind of rigid black or white view of a rainbow world. Our former president saw the world that way and we saw the wanton destruction that it caused. And is still being caused by our new president. Such inflexibility and demand for purity easily leades to murderous dictatorships as varied as any of those you can find. They have their values that are black or white and must be followed or else. Human life is secondary to them. It is primary to me.

One can have whatever delusions or points of view one wants but you can’t force me to live that way. Which I know means that the polluters can continue. But that doesn’t mean we can try to appeal to their mind. Convince without coercion. A tough sell, I know. But it could happen.

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By ThomasG, October 12, 2009 at 6:40 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 11 at 11:51pm,

Blah to you and the rest of your Conservative Right-Wing EXTREMIST Boiler Room mafioso.

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By ThomasG, October 12, 2009 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, October 12 at 12:21am,

Blah to you and the rest of your Conservative Right-Wing EXTREMIST Boiler Room mafioso.

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By ThomasG, October 12, 2009 at 6:36 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 12 at 2:10am,

Blah to you and the rest of your Conservative Right-Wing EXTREMIST Boiler Room mafioso.

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By Shenonymous, October 11, 2009 at 11:10 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG, I have humored you, and myself, long enough.  You have not
justified anything you have said about me or anyone else on this forum, not
one bit, not one letter of any word, not one word, not one sentence, and you
have spent obsessively copious amount of time and uncountable words
thinking you have stumbled on some truth when in fact you have retreated
into a world of fiction.  It is only your mind that is stumbling on the nonsense
of beliefs to which your mind is glued, things like frogs, boiler rooms, and
braincells.  You see, whatever it is you may think is truth is not really
important but justification of what you think to be truth is.  You dodge and
evade into an incessantly repetitive accusatory babble when asked to justify
anything you say.  What you say is unintelligible and says nothing.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 11, 2009 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

Darn, Ozark Michael, if you moved to Ohio, you couldn’t call yourself Ozark Michael.

Liked the story, divisiveness dost get old mighty fast and differences do not have to be divisive.

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By Leefeller, October 11, 2009 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

Lack of denial means yes, only in the mind of ThomasG, could lack of denial also mean no ThomasG? Now don’t hurt yourself!

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By OzarkMichael, October 11, 2009 at 8:51 pm Link to this comment

Friends,

A bit of daydreaming today.

I start with a true story.  While driving across the USA, I decide to take a more direct route to get to route 80 from route 70, this being in the neighborhood of Canton Ohio I think.

This ‘direct route’ was on back roads. We travelled happily along, the wife and I, both knowing that there was a pretty good chance we would get lost, but also expecting in the process to stumble upon something interesting.

As usual, we got off track, and as usual, we found something.

A very small Ohio town, with an interesting old general store that had a broad wooden front and old gas pumps on the side of the building. Not a rich town. rural. Nice. Nice people.

While fueling up i took a look around. Across the street was an impressive old three story beautiful red brick building. It was by far the largest building in town, probably the largest in the county. I walked over to it.

I was sad to find that it was empty, although the walls were solid enough. The roof might have been in need of repair. Sad thing. Such a small rural town must have spent an awful lot of money building this huge building and here it was, slowly going to rot. i wanted to get inside and see if there was any cool stuff in there.

So this became the focus of our detour. You can always find interesting things if you have a patient wife and a know how to get a little lost.

So i went back and grabbed the wife, and we looked at the building from the outside (couldnt get in)

The building had one of those dark blue ‘national historic site’ signs, It had gold letters which are raised from the blue backround.

The sign revealed it was one of the first Lodges of the “Knights of Pythias”, founded in i think 1865. As usual, the wife contributed to the adventure. She knew who Pythias was!

The story is basically: Pythias was wrongfully prisoned, and faced capital punishment, but his friend Damon was willing to take his place so that Pythias could go home and get his affairs in order before being executed. It is a touching story about friendship. My wife held my hand while she told the story. She is my friend.

http://www.jamboree.freedom-in-education.co.uk/real_history/damon pythias.htm

I had an impulse to make inquiries and buy the poor building, and move into town. Why not? I can practice anywhere, and I like rural.

The wife diverted my thoughts, got me back in the car. Driving along… another small town. This one had a little store too. In a corner they had old postcards. As i riffled through them i found… of all things… a dues payment stub for membership in the Lord Knights of Pythias! “Hah!” I said, “If I cant have the building I will buy this cool stub!”

What does this have to do with you, Truthdig reader?

Well, it occurs to me that perhaps our nation might go fascist someday, and that some of my Leftist friends could end up wrongfully incarcerated. Or maybe people like MarthaA might take over, communists dictatorship would be the result, in which case it would be me in jail.

(Anaracissie is going to be in jail no matter who takes over. Anarchists are universally distrusted by all dictators)

So the idea I have: we would pledge to help each other if one of us is in trouble with a totalitarian government. A Pythias Pledge. Instead of the Froggy Blahs.

Interestingly enough, the idea of the Knights of Pythias was to reach across differences and divides after the American Civil War.  It was a good idea then, and it wouldnt hurt us to reach across our differences now. That is my daydream for today.

I cannot remember the name of the town in Ohio. As with so many things in life, I will never find it again.

Besides, there is no going back to the original adventure event, even if I could find the place(a little Subjectivity for you).  We only get one chance. The thing to do is experience and learn something.

Friendship is much better than an old building anyway.

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By ThomasG, October 11, 2009 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 11 at 10:53pm,

I take your lack of denial as an affirmative answer of yes, that you do work in a Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room.

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By Shenonymous, October 11, 2009 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG Six Croaks, I am truly worried about you. Get a grip!  la la la la la  
la la la la la

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By ThomasG, October 11, 2009 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 11 at 7:57pm,

Is the Boiler Room you work in a traditional Boiler Room with cubicle type work stations, or do you work in a virtual Boiler Room?  Also, what does Boiler Room work for the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS pay?

How many people are the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS working in their Boiler Rooms?

You have already owned up to being a frog, to Leefeller having only two-brain cells, and being a part of an organized group working on the Truthdig Forum, you might as well tell me and everyone else about your Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room that you work in and who the people are that you work with, because it is obvious to everyone other than you and your Boiler Room cronies.

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By ThomasG, October 11, 2009 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 11 at 7:57pm,

The rules of the Boiler Room do not allow you to make direct answers, do they? ——apparently frogs are only allowed to sing.

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By Shenonymous, October 11, 2009 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

I will make the very best fricassee frog, just smack yo lips.  Hell, like the
shmoos, I’ll jump right into the pot! 

Why TG Six Croaks, are you a frog hunter?  Are you so violent that you would
bash a frog? One that only has two braincells?  Gad.  You should be ashamed
of yourself.  Do you hang out with many other thugs?  That doesn’t come
from being a communist, does it?  Since I engage in the art of fencing, I
probably should just run you through.  With an attaque composée I shall coup
d’arrêt, then countre-parade with a coup de taille.  Then I will thrust and
anticipate your usual feinte with a coup droit d’autorité  and will end with
froissement. Betcha didn’t know frogs could fence.  Well French Frogs do.  En
Garde!

Look who is calling who a repeater!  TG Six Croaks, you have some serious
identity problems. Must be because of your having only one braincell.  It is a
no brainer really to copy/paste.  Did you lose that one cell too!?

Leefeller, please let me bold and italicize again!  I’m having an anxiety attack! 
I might have to resort to using a lot of exclamation points!

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By ThomasG, October 11, 2009 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 11 at 5:19pm,

So far, you have owned up to being a frog and to Leefeller having only 2-brain cells.  What other startling admissions can I expect from the Blah Contingent?

Is this what the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement consists of?  Frogs and 2-Brain Celled knuckle dragging troglodytes; this was the standard for Goldwater, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II and this is why Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS are unfit to serve in both Houses of Congress and the Government of the United States.

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By ThomasG, October 11, 2009 at 4:35 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 11 at 5:19pm,

So far, you have owned up to being a frog and to Leefeller having only 2-brain cells.  What other startling admissions can I expect from the Blah Contingent?

Is this what the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement consists of?  Frogs and 2-Brain Celled knuckle dragging troglodytes; this was the standard for Goldwater, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II and this is why Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS are unfit to serve in both Houses of Congress and the Government of the United States.

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By ThomasG, October 11, 2009 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 10 at 4:40pm,

When the time comes for John Steinbeck’s, Great Frog Hunt from “Cannery Row”, and you are caught by a frog hunter, will pleading your case repetitively be grounds for accusing, condemning and denouncing you as a frog and throwing you in the pot without regard to the actions of the frog hunters who are persecuting you?

The following is an excerpt from my post to Night-Gaunt:

If someone was hitting you with a club, you told them to stop, and they——like the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS do——continued hitting you with a club, would the one hitting you with a club have a legitimate complaint that you keep repeating the same thing over and over again, as an accusation, condemnation and denunciation by you’re telling the one hitting you with a club to stop?

Would it be acceptable to you for someone hitting you repetitively with a club to vilify you for repeating over and over again that you wanted the person to quit hitting you?——or not?

What is your response?

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By Shenonymous, October 11, 2009 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

To all who have only two braincells, Unite!  I am proud to stand with you. 
Raise that middle finger of both hands to ThomasG Six Croaks upon reading
this sentence.  We are the dignified Blahs with Two Brain Cells. Long live the
Blahs with Two Brain Cells.  Always remember, having two braincells are
better than having only one braincell (poor ThomasG Six Croaks). 

If you only have one braincell it is very difficult to see the extraordinary humor
of Leefeller who has two braincells.

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By ThomasG, October 11, 2009 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, October 11 at 11:43am,

Non-sequitur, please coordinate both of your two available brain cells and perhaps you can be more coherent.

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By ThomasG, October 11, 2009 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

Declare yourself, so that it can be judged by all whether or not you are what you say you are.  Are you a Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST spouting sophistry and propaganda, or are you Left-Wing, a Liberal???????  It is up to you to say what you are, NOT ME, or anyone else.

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By Leefeller, October 11, 2009 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

Vision an imbecile leading themselves around with two right feet with hughe clown shoes on,  madly waving teabags over their head with two right hands. dost this not seem an apt description of ThomasG?

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By Night-Gaunt, October 10, 2009 at 8:43 pm Link to this comment

“Are you claiming to be a toady to the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS?”-ThomasG

Didn’t you read what I wrote? Does it fit your criterion for such a point of view as you see it? I can’t say it any clearer. You have already equated me with it so I took you up on it to see just how your mind works. Did what I say fit what you called me? Simply put, I need to say no more about it. You have your answer. Just analyze what I wrote and see if it fits what you think a Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST is. If you can’t then you are truly lost.

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By Leefeller, October 10, 2009 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

Om,  I consider myself left, only because my stereotype of right is someone who hates allowances towards tolerance, uncompromising on any issue, in any degree and people on the right are unable to utilize reason and these people never appreciate reality, truth and reason.   

You Know Imbeciles! 

So OM I think you are a lefty!

Where am I?

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2009 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG, Six Croaks.

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By ThomasG, October 10, 2009 at 2:09 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Blah.

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By ThomasG, October 10, 2009 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

Are you claiming to be a toady to the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS?

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2009 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

Everyone is Leefeller except Leefeller!  How did he do that?

Anarcissie, it has become something of a sport to see how many times TG Six
croaks can copy/paste any one commentary.  I hope you don’t mind being
grouped with the motley crew called the Blah Contingent.  We are an unlikely
assembly of somewhat incongruous dimensions.  There does exist another
Contingent that ITW, if he were still around, would be able to describe
succinctly.  There is no doubt he would be part of the Blahs too.

Something tells me we are dealing with Gog and Magog.

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By Night-Gaunt, October 10, 2009 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment

Me a Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST? I am for ending all wars, reducing our military to 1/10 its present size and expenditure with more reductions to come. No drug, sex or weapons laws but human rights are and strictly enforced. You can do to yourself whatever you want but not to others unless they give their permission and not under duress of any kind. You can commit suicide or live as long as you like. Have one wife or she could have three husbands or a wife or many wives or many husbands as they see fit. Free to come and go. Corporations have no rights at all. How does that decagonal peg fit in that square hole, ThomasG?

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By ThomasG, October 10, 2009 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, OzarkMichael, Leefeller, Anarcissie, Night-Gaunt, ardee, Ouroborus and all other members of the Conservatives Right-Wing EXTREMIST Blah Contingent:

The dog-pile tactics of the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS on this blog are indicative that many of the posts on this blog originate in a Right-Wing EXTREMIST Boiler Room and that those who are making the posts are shift workers in that Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Boiler Room.

Those of the Left, Liberals, who want to post should not take the ranting, accusation, condemnation, denunciation and indignant sophist outrage of Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST operatives in a Right-Wing Conservative Boiler Room following a Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST script as shift-workers to seriously; they are nothing more than Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST lackeys for the most part—working as paid lackeys or evangelical Christian monkeys toiling for money or in the name of God against their best interest; know that they are nothing more than mindless lackeys, that their minders have given a script for them to follow, and have a little fun with them——those watching the show will learn from the proceedings what a bunch of self-centered, self-involved, self-serving EXTREMISTS the Right-Wing Conservative lackeys on this blog are representing, and that Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS are unfit for service to anything other than their own greedy self-interests at the expense of society as a whole.

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By OzarkMichael, October 10, 2009 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

ThomasG, you are so copmpletely losing your battle that there is only one person who hasnt joined me in conservatism, and that is Night Gaunt.

Just think Thomas, before you came along Shenonymous, Leefeller, ardee, and Anarcissie would all have classified themselves as Leftists(all different types, but all on the Left) but thanks to you they are all conservatives.

So make an ultimate and complete AH of yourself and annoy Night Gaunt so much that he starts to see the light and join me as well.

Wouldn’t it be kind of silly to demonstrate to yourself that you were yourself?

Hmm. let me try.

Demonstrating….

Demonstrating some more….

Done.

Turns out I am not myself at all. I seem to be Leefeller.

Damn. Why does Leefeller get to be everybody?

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By Anarcissie, October 10, 2009 at 7:22 am Link to this comment

Why are you all carrying on about this guy?

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2009 at 7:10 am Link to this comment

My fellow Blah, Night-Gaunt, I counted four copies of the same message in a
row from TG Six Croaks.  what do you make of that?  In my studies of
psychology that kind of obsessive repetition is a bad sign for achieving mental
well-being.  I didn’t read them all since they all say the same thing. They are
copy/paste copies.  Why anyone would do that three times after the first one is
truly weird.  Actually, I gloss over all the bolding and capitalistic lettering.  See
I think that hidden within TG Six Croaks’ posts the surreptitious use of capital
letters is a secret desire to be a capitalist, a privatized capitalist since it is
esoterically private, hidden in a too too obvious way.  It is akin to Alice’s logic. 

Leefeller, our other brother Blah, I intended to put humor into the bolding
defense.  I know you didn’t know who did the bloody bolding and would not
have called me an AH (although I could have been one as I am not immune to
being an AH, but since I am a frog one minute and a parrot the next, it is quite
possible I transformed into an AH).  I had a very good and healthy laugh, so
thank you.  I will mirthfully take note of the substitution of TG Six Croaks for
any mention of AH.

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By Leefeller, October 9, 2009 at 10:43 pm Link to this comment

Night Guant, do not feel left out, you can have my place on the list.

She, when I posted my comment about the ass hole, I had mistakenly believed I was addressing the personified real ass hole known as ThomasG, so in reflection just change ass hole to mean ThomasG, whenever I mention AH and we will be on the the same wave length. From now on I procalim Bold and Caps will signify an ass hole alert.

Sorry She!

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By Night-Gaunt, October 9, 2009 at 10:14 pm Link to this comment

Wow ThomasG, repeating your rant three times in succession doesn’t improve it at all. Okay? And the fact that you left me out hurts me deeply. But I shall survive that, just the coming Greater Depression I just may not. Even worse if I am forced to join a Health Insurance company or face a fine I can’t pay. Now that is tyranny without guns.

ThomasG & MarthaA all surface tension, no substance. A sharp enough point or idea pops that bubble.

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By ThomasG, October 9, 2009 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, OzarkMichael, Leefeller, Anarcissie and all Conservatives seeking answers:

The ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement ——has the destructive effects of Goldwater, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II to answer for, that borrowed and spent the United States into ——bankrupcy—— deindustrialized the United States in pursuit of short-term profit, created a mercantile financialized economy in the United States, and in the pursuit of obscene short-term profit created the biggest financial bubble the World has ever known with toxic securities and credit default derivatives that in 2008 broke and destroyed the economy of the United States and the World, and from 2008 to the present has created a mess of the U.S. Economy and the Economy of the World that has taken TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS of socialized resources in support of privatized capital interests to keep the U.S. Economy from spiraling into the worst World-Wide Depression the world has ever known; when the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have answered for this mess that the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have created and cleaned up their own mess, perhaps the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— will have standing to ask the Left and Liberals for answers, but not until the mess made by the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have cleaned up their own mess and paid for it.

If you, the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS——  want answers, the answer is clean up the mess you made of the U.S. Economy, pay for the cleanup and don’t be whining around with your hands out for TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS of WELFARE for the WEALTHY, as price supports for your toxic capital; those of the ——MAJORITY Common Population—— who don’t have capital need their money to support themselves and their families, and don’t choose to go into debt for the terms of their lives and TEN GENERATIONS of their progeny’s lives in order to provide WELFARE for the WEALTHY.

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By ThomasG, October 9, 2009 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, OzarkMichael, Leefeller, Anarcissie and all Conservatives seeking answers:

The ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement ——has the destructive effects of Goldwater, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II to answer for, that borrowed and spent the United States into ——bankrupcy—— deindustrialized the United States in pursuit of short-term profit, created a mercantile financialized economy in the United States, and in the pursuit of obscene short-term profit created the biggest financial bubble the World has ever known with toxic securities and credit default derivatives that in 2008 broke and destroyed the economy of the United States and the World, and from 2008 to the present has created a mess of the U.S. Economy and the Economy of the World that has taken TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS of socialized resources in support of privatized capital interests to keep the U.S. Economy from spiraling into the worst World-Wide Depression the world has ever known; when the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have answered for this mess that the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have created and cleaned up their own mess, perhaps the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— will have standing to ask the Left and Liberals for answers, but not until the mess made by the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have cleaned up their own mess and paid for it.

If you, the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS——  want answers, the answer is clean up the mess you made of the U.S. Economy, pay for the cleanup and don’t be whining around with your hands out for TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS of WELFARE for the WEALTHY, as price supports for your toxic capital; those of the ——MAJORITY Common Population—— who don’t have capital need their money to support themselves and their families, and don’t choose to go into debt for the terms of their lives and TEN GENERATIONS of their progeny’s lives in order to provide WELFARE for the WEALTHY.

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By ThomasG, October 9, 2009 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, OzarkMichael, Leefeller, Anarcissie and all Conservatives seeking answers:

The ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement ——has the destructive effects of Goldwater, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II to answer for, that borrowed and spent the United States into ——bankrupcy—— deindustrialized the United States in pursuit of short-term profit, created a mercantile financialized economy in the United States, and in the pursuit of obscene short-term profit created the biggest financial bubble the World has ever known with toxic securities and credit default derivatives that in 2008 broke and destroyed the economy of the United States and the World, and from 2008 to the present has created a mess of the U.S. Economy and the Economy of the World that has taken TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS of socialized resources in support of privatized capital interests to keep the U.S. Economy from spiraling into the worst World-Wide Depression the world has ever known; when the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have answered for this mess that the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have created and cleaned up their own mess, perhaps the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— will have standing to ask the Left and Liberals for answers, but not until the mess made by the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have cleaned up their own mess and paid for it.

If you, the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS——  want answers, the answer is clean up the mess you made of the U.S. Economy, pay for the cleanup and don’t be whining around with your hands out for TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS of WELFARE for the WEALTHY, as price supports for your toxic capital; those of the ——MAJORITY Common Population—— who don’t have capital need their money to support themselves and their families, and don’t choose to go into debt for the terms of their lives and TEN GENERATIONS of their progeny’s lives in order to provide WELFARE for the WEALTHY.

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By ThomasG, October 9, 2009 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, OzarkMichael, Leefeller, Anarcissie and all Conservatives seeking answers:

The ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement ——has the destructive effects of Goldwater, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II to answer for, that borrowed and spent the United States into ——bankruptcy—— deindustrialized the United States in pursuit of short-term profit, created a mercantile financialized economy in the United States, and in the pursuit of obscene short-term profit created the biggest financial bubble the World has ever known with toxic securities and credit default derivatives that in 2008 broke and destroyed the economy of the United States and the World, and from 2008 to the present has created a mess of the U.S. Economy and the Economy of the World that has taken TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS of socialized resources in support of privatized capital interests to keep the U.S. Economy from spiraling into the worst World-Wide Depression the world has ever known; when the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have answered for this mess that the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have created and cleaned up their own mess, perhaps the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— will have standing to ask the Left and Liberals for answers, but not until the mess made by the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS—— have cleaned up their own mess and paid for it.

If you, the ——Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS——  want answers, the answer is clean up the mess you made of the U.S. Economy, pay for the cleanup and don’t be whining around with your hands out for TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS of WELFARE for the WEALTHY, as price supports for your toxic capital; those of the ——MAJORITY Common Population—— who don’t have capital need their money to support themselves and their families, and don’t choose to go into debt for the terms of their lives and TEN GENERATIONS of their progeny’s lives in order to provide WELFARE for the WEALTHY.

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By Shenonymous, October 9, 2009 at 9:50 pm Link to this comment

Try building a machine without any subjectivity.  Without subjectivity, you
won’t even be able to think about what kind of a machine you would want to
build.  You couldn’t even want to want anything as there wouldn’t be a desiring
subject.  Worse than that, you would not exist.  Then, what exactly would be
making a deposit if a bank deposit was to be made?  Wouldn’t it be a
subjective who that has an objective arm with a hand attached?  I guarantee
you cannot do anything objective because there will be no you there!  And
without a subjectivity, don’t worry a nanosecond about going to jail, there
won’t be any you there to go to jail.  Only some objective body would be
going.  You can wait for eternity, the only subjective demonstration that is
possible is for you to think and the demonstration would be only to yourself. 
Wouldn’t it be kind of silly to demonstrate to yourself that you were yourself?

It is an absurd position to take that only objectivity exists.  Nothing is done
without a subjectivity. You refuse to address the profound questionsI put to
both of you that lie at the basis of your pathetic beliefs, MarthaA and
ThomasG, because to do so would undermine your entire set of assumptions. 
It is pure stupidity.  I have never said objectivity did not exist.  Your untenable
position forces you to actually prevaricate what others say, you who claim to
be Christian bears false witness, and crassly through the graphic media yell
and screech your petrified beliefsby using the capitals and bolding features of
the word processing which does nothing for your thesis because your thesis
is… dreary.  ThomasG, six croaks.

Dear Leefeller…I am the asshole who messed up the bolding this time.  Only it
was not on purpose.  I saw that I didn’t do the brackets properly around
Anarcissie’s name in my last post.  I was glad it only lasted for that one short
paragraph.  I was going to apologize but I am now happier to have been called
an asshole!  Being called an asshole has cured me of using italics and bolding
ever again.  I think I swore off it once before for the same reason, but my
addiction got the better of me.  I think this time, your surly admonition did the
trick.

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By Leefeller, October 9, 2009 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG, you should write Republican children’s books, your non comrhensive fetish with frogs seems to be a leg in. Though, I would not try to promote them in France!

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By Leefeller, October 9, 2009 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment

Who ever the ass hole is that is using the bold key, needs to stop it, my posts are coming out bold and I do not even know how to use the bold key!

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By Anarcissie, October 9, 2009 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael:
’... Post more! go after more Truthdiggers! i would like Anarcissie to be a conservative too. Could you work on her for me?’

Be careful what you wish for.  I might turn into a de Maistre rather than a Burke.

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By Shenonymous, October 9, 2009 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG Six croaks.

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By ThomasG, October 9, 2009 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous and OzarkMichael;

All recrimination——Nothing substantive to answer——just blah.

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By Shenonymous, October 9, 2009 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

The frog who thought she was a parrot!

Gawd, you go to work a friggin liberal frog and come home a conservative
parrot!  Stranger things have happened. 

I probably won’t become a true conservative, but I am for the first time in my
life beginning to think I want at least to see real conservative arguments, no
slogans.  Why is the conservative view better on any of the issues?  They
always have automatic reactions and all read the same script.  I watch them
very carefully to see if any self-serving reasons are dispensed with in lieu of
programs that would benefit ordinary Americans why their views are better. 
Darn if I have seen any.  I can almost say word for word what they will say
about any given political matter. 

ThomasG, six croaks.  It is too too obvious you have no substance to
your ranting.  Darn, your last post was so very unpersuasive and not very
cogent.  And your name calling is childish.  It shows your frustration at being
unable to provide substantial argument for your political convictions.  Guess
we cannot expect a six croaks to be able to provide any more than they have. 
(Anarcissie]/b], I choose that the twins are ranting trolls).  Oh, that was the
other forum.  Well it works for both.

I think if there are, and I do think there are many, those too poor to eat and
don’t have a roof over their head when it’s raining that their state of mind
would already have been affected before those two events.  More and more
however will be in that condition or near it if more jobs don’t become
available, like millions of jobs.  Personally I am furious that the job situation is
what it is.  Of course since they do not have an address they won’t be able to
vote so politicians don’t have to care about them that much or not at all.

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By Leefeller, October 9, 2009 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

OM, in answer to your quest, I am conservative in some things and ways, like the conservative amount of money which is always in my wallet surrounded by moths, I drive my Humvee very conservatively and piss off liberal Pris drivers because I am going slower then they are, now I consider that being double conservative and there is more from where that came from!

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By OzarkMichael, October 9, 2009 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

For years i have tried to win some converts to the conservative point of view. Especially here on Truthdig, where I am the only regular conservative poster. Leefeller and Shenonymous would be prize people to add to the army of conservatives,

But i never made any progress.

But thanks to ThomasG, who has defined leefeller and Shenonymous as:the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST type

ThomasG has succeeded where i had failed for years. Shenonymous even admitted that Thomas is pushing her towards the Right.

Thanks ThomasG! my pal.

I am far too subjective to ever convince liberals to join me. But thanks to your objectivity we are making real progress.

Post more! go after more Truthdiggers! i would like Anarcissie to be a conservative too. Could you work on her for me?

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By Leefeller, October 9, 2009 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

I have this vision of Dr. Frankinstine in a large room flipping levers, loud roars of thunder shaking the room and flashes of lightening coming through the few windows,  smell of ozone and sparks flying everywhere from the electrical equipment and Dr. Franinstines flipping of levers. Below all the levers there is very small print, so one must get up close to read the writing, all the levers read the same thing “BOLDorCAPS”.

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By ThomasG, October 9, 2009 at 10:49 am Link to this comment

What a dynamic duo, Leefeller and Shenonymous, the Big Shorty and the Short Biggie of the frog pond, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, ——frogs of the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST type,  like Pinky and the Brain, trying to take over the world with a FAILED Right-Wing Conservative Movement that made the U. S. Government and the Congress into a Pinky and the Brain Project that lasted from Goldwater through Reagan, Bush I and Bush II, borrowed and spent the United States into bankruptcy, deindustrialized the United States, created a mercantile financialized economy in the United States and created the biggest financial bubble the world has ever known with toxic securities and credit default swaps that broke in 2008 and from that time to the present has created a mess of the U.S. Economy that has taken TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS of socialized resources in support of PRIVATIZED capital interests to keep the U.S. Economy from spiraling into the worse depression the world has ever know, and this dynamic duo of the frog pond act like they are oblivious to what their Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement has done————frogs are like that————go figure.

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By Leefeller, October 9, 2009 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

Anarcassie, If I were on my own 200 foot yacht loaded with dancing girls and Tequila, could also affect my state of mind, but I will never know.

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By ThomasG, October 9, 2009 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 9 at 9:48am,

More blah croaking from a twenty something year old singing frog spouting the drivel of dogma out of books you studied in the school of the pond, written under the guidance of Charles Edward Merriam and Burris Frederick Skinner; you haven’t been around long enough to actually know anything about the world outside your pond; you, like a parrot, are just saying what you have read in a book hoping, like a parrot, to get a cracker for your efforts——pathetic, but typical.  Try to learn more from the parrot; the parrot can fly past the provincial parameters of the frog pond and knows from experience that Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST sophistry and propaganda written into dogma is not the same as objective reality beyond the frog pond.

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By Anarcissie, October 9, 2009 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

Leefeller:
’...
Thought I would save Ouroborus the trouble of posting, because I wanted to reply to She’s comment “Leefeller, are you saying being poor is a state of mind?”

Answer: Yes, I was!’

Above the physiological level.  If you’re too poor to eat or get a roof over your head when it’s raining, it’s going to affect your state of mind.

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By Leefeller, October 9, 2009 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

“By Ouroborus, October 3 at 10:22 am #

Leefeller, October 3 at 9:26 am #

You’ve posted here for a long time; are you guys a tag
team now? “

Thought I would save Ouroborus the trouble of posting, because I wanted to reply to She’s comment “Leefeller, are you saying being poor is a state of mind?”

Answer: Yes, I was!

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By Shenonymous, October 9, 2009 at 6:48 am Link to this comment

Croak croak croak croak croak croak (means in Froggian, ThomasG, You are a horse’s ass (Equus Asinus ).”  I said you were an ass once before but I see you really are an EA.  Everytime you see it in my comments you will know what it means.  I strive to be the best Frog I can be, croak croak croak croak croak croak (or for short, six croaks). 

ThomasG, you recklessly assail me as a Frog.  You lack the high qualifications to determine who is or who is not a Frog.  Only another Frog can tell that.  Also only one Frog can judge whether another Frog is an excellent Froggian or not.  Therefore, six croaks. 

One sign of Equus Asinus is that they think grade school teachers are authorities.  Another sign is the set of dogmatic beliefs they attempt to browbeat others into believing offering no evidence or rational argument using a verbal poplar wood bat as weapon of choice.  Six croaks. 

Good morning, laugh laugh, Leefeller, in a subjectively comparative sense!  That was funny.  Croak, croak…I am familiar with your grandmother’s purse from another post on another forum some time ago.  We are getting to be very familiar with your granny’s objective behavior.

Objectively, one could say Obama the Neo-Socialist is poor compared to Obama the Neo-Republican.  I mean he would have to be, right?  Bet Neo of the Matrix didn’t know he had a schizoid brother.  Okay, okay, that doesn’t hold water…  Croak croak… Speaking of capitalism, Warren Buffet ($37 billion) is poor compared to Bill Gates ($40 billion).  Did you know that today’s billionaires have an average net worth of $3 billion and that is down 23% from a year ago?  There are 793 billionaires in the world today, 359 are American.  They have got to be the up-to-now undefined 1%, right?  Well let’s see…. take 359 over 307,658,000 million (people, that is).  I guess that is a lot less than 1%, more like .000116%  So who are the rest that make up that 1%?  Hmmm???  Must be those pesky millionaires or what is known as HNWI (High Net Worth Individuals).  There are about 2,669,000 millionaires in the United States, or about 0.9% of the population.  In the whole world there are 8.7 million millionaires, or about 0.13% of the world-wide population.  Shhhhh don’t tell ThomasG.  He wants to take all their money, but he is not concerned with the poor of the world.  I mean what would the world be like without its really really really wealthy?  Also, also some of these millionaires say they do not fee rich.  And so it goes, Leefeller is right again, it is relative.  In subjective comparison, all of the rest of us can claim to be part of the poor set and all qualify for welfare, right?  Won’t work?  Oh, shucks.  Wait a minute!  Croak croak.

Leefeller, are you saying being poor is a state of mind?  That shoots the hell out of my entire argument about the poor.  Thanks a lot fellow Blah.

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By Leefeller, October 9, 2009 at 3:48 am Link to this comment

I doubt very much if little kids would use the word fool. They would most likely use another word something more kid like. When I was a little kid I never ever called another kid a fool, I used a word I learned from my grandmother who was from Norway,  “eddyoat”!

My grandmother did not speak English very well, but when she started cursing and swearing, one had best run.

Now one of my favorite words to date is imbecile, (which means stupid idiot)  my grandmother used imbecile, but she mangled the word so badly we never actually knew what she was saying as she would lapse in and out of Norwegian .

Wonder what my grandmother would say about ThomasG, I suspect she would put him in his place in two languages!

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By ThomasG, October 9, 2009 at 3:08 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 8 at 8:32pm,

When my niece was in Grade School, she called another kid a fool.  The kid told my niece “I am going to tell the teacher you called me a name.” and went running to the teacher and reported my niece had called him a name.  The teacher asked the kid what my niece had called him and the kid said, “She called me a fool.”  The teacher asked my niece if what the kid said was true, and my niece responded, “Yes, I called [the kid] a fool because he is a fool.  All a fool is, is one who doesn’t know what’s in their own best interest, and [this kid] clearly doesn’t know what is in his own best interest.”  The teacher responded to my niece that what she said was “true, that [the kid] did not know what was in his own best interest, and that [the kid] was indeed a fool; that my niece calling him a fool when he was a fool was not name calling, because it was true.”

Bearing this true story in mind, I say to you, “there you go again”, croaking, when you have an opportunity to sing.  Why is it that frogs want to be kings, intellectuals and the like, but when given the opportunity to sing, all they do is croak and jump around behaving like a frog?

When confronted all Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS, like you, croak, jump around with indignant sophist outrage, and refuse to sing; instead, they just sit and croak or jump around with indignant outrage from place to place like big dumb frogs;——why is that? ——perhaps you can tell us from the frog’s perspective.

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By Leefeller, October 8, 2009 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

One can be considered poor in a subjective sense, when they compare themselves to anyone richer then themselves?

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By Shenonymous, October 8, 2009 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment

Are you really really poor Leefeller, in a real sense?
Do you walk around afraid all the time?
Do you have scars or bruises dealt by Leftists and Rightists?
Do you not have any healthcare?
Do you wear a taco shaped cowboy hat?
Do you not have a dime in your pocket?
Do you wear very pointy Hollister brand boots?
Do you not know when you or you and your family know what will be on the table to eat today and tomorrow?  Do you really have a table?
Won’t WalMart hire you or family members even on a part-time basis? (BTW: Lowes which is owned by WalMart will hire part-time employees and give them health insurance!)
Do you not have more than one pair of pants? No more than one shirt?  No socks? No underwear?  No car?  No Blackberry?
Do you not even have a bottle of tequila?
If you can answer yes to more than six of these questions, I think it could be said you were poor.
_________________

If it isn’t the poor we are concerned about then I see no problem exists at all.  It is all only ideologically self-serving by the rest. Some just have a lot more wealth than others and the others want it.  You see ThomasG, money means nothing.  It is simply an abstract number and is moved around like germs get moved around.  If change is not for the benefit of poor Americans then I fail to see any reason for it. 

The fact that you may not like it that there are those who have more money than you do does not really concern me.  What exactly would be the difference between the better off being part of a privatized capitalistic economic system or a socialized capitalistic system (which I still think is an oxymoron)?  Why should the wealth be spread around by one system rather than the other.  If the needy can make huge amounts of money, just ask them if they would turn the offer down.  You might be surprised that even those among the Neo-socialists would take the opportunity faster than you can say your own name.  Rather than tell me what I already know, that I do not quite understand what you want with socialized capitalism, you might spend your time explaining its virtues.  All you tell me is that tax money is socialized dollars.  The government does redistribute some of the wealth around a few social programs (which I am completely for) and it could be named socialized use of the funds if it is so desired.  But it is really moot what it is called: tax dollars or socialized revenue.  It is merely different ways of reserving the money.  But you repeatedly complain that a great deal of it has been spent on privatized capitalists.  That fact does not bother me.  Also that criticism, by the way, is uncannily similar to the Republican’s.

It remains to be seen if the way this was handled was a good idea or not.  The horse is out of the corral, for the next three years. 

I cannot either agree or disagree with you at this point since you have framed the question in terms that enhance your ideas.  Of course I understand the concept of trillions of dollars, but those are abstract dollars being moved around to rectify a horrible financial problem.  It needs fixed. It will take dollars beyond any ordinary person’s ability to imagine. 

State the question objectively (your favorite perspective) and I will be able to answer it objectively.  As I said you only exacerbate the issue by your attachment to your emotionally-charged subjective point of view.  You cannot avoid subjective feelings which is shown in the several times you have presented your argument.  You conjecture from your intransigent political stance just as Republicans do.  That is something I find quite intriguing.

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By ThomasG, October 8, 2009 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 8 at 2:35pm and Shenonymous, October 8 at 2:32pm,

I did not say anything about poverty and the poor; you are the only one talking about the poor and poverty.

I am talking about the current expenditure of tens of trillions of dollars of free socialized resources as WELFARE for the WEALTHY at the expense of the socialized MAJORITY Population, socialized responsibility for privatized benefit, a condition that has been a part of Capitalism since its origin.

If socialized Capitalism is an inchoate concept to you; if indeed socialized Capitalism is a concept that is in an early or rudimentary stage of your understanding, perhaps you could consider and understand that tens of trillions of dollars of socialized resources being used by the U.S. Government to prop up the value of private capital is socialized responsibility for privatized benefit, and that Capitalism, by the “cyclical” occurrence of this same type of bailout known as the “economic cycle”, has socialized Capitalism without society as a whole getting the benefit of society’s resources; do you agree or disagree that the cyclical bailout of the FAILED “economic cycle of Capitalism” is proof positive that socialized Capitalism already exists without benefit to society for society’s responsibility for privatized benefit?

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By Leefeller, October 8, 2009 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

Fear factor is used excessively, could turn into crying like Fox.

Using the poor as a punching bag by both right and left, is an interesting approach and why do I feel poor?

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By elisalouisa, October 8, 2009 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment

This discussion is based on the situation as it is now. It is difficult to envision as
to what is right around the corner even if you have a Cristal ball(or Cristal balls?)
as Leefeller suggests that ThomasG has. Night-Gaunt I know you have
mentioned this more than once but I just don’t see a theocratic corporate
dictatorship coming. A corporate dictatorship is much more likely with much of
the population a thing of the past and the rest living in a feudalistic state. The
glass is half full for each day and half empty for what is further down the road

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By Shenonymous, October 8, 2009 at 1:49 pm Link to this comment

Unless you can give a really good reason why Blumenthal wrote a better book, there are so many books out there Night-Gaunt that it is getting clogged up and I suspect most of these books are by journalists who fear obscurity and have the conceited need to generate income from book sales. They are being ground out faster than a bottle of Coke on an assembly line.  A few titles,  American Theocracy, Kevin Phillips; Spiritual Warfare, Sara Diamond; Eternal Hostility, Frederick Clarkson; Forcing God’s Hand, Grace Halsell.  I have all of them and I am not buying another one.  They pretty much all say the same thing.  I just can’t get that excited.  What I haven’t bought is anything that cautions about the psychosis of dominionism or the Illuminati and nothing that Dan Brown writes.  The hysteria has reached into the book selling business that I find obnoxious as psychological alkali.  I like my own mind too much, I guess.

There is a simple base solution to any of the alleged take over of the American guvamint by the religious-right or the communists.  First of all, notice that the religious right is small in comparison with the number of those not on the religious right.  Since they are of various religious faiths and non-religious seculars and are busy trying to make a life rather than idle their time away on internet blogs, the ordinary American couldn’t care less what these fanatics do.  How funny are those on the Internet blogs who are trying with their whole essence of being to say what the poor need.  Leftists and Rightists.  And no, I do not have any statistics but I watch what the ordinary American does, not what the media reports they do, nor what any politician says they do.  Just watch what they do do.  What a CONcept? Thank you Tao Walker.  Just watch product corporations bite the dust one at a time because Ordinary People don’t have the money to buy their Products. The most recent is Dell.  It should be a show on Comedy Central.  But mark my words, if the Common Population had a dollar, they would spend it on athletic shoes and Blackberries.  You know what to invest your money in don’t you.  Oh by the way the value of gold has gone up impressively.  So if you have some you might be able to make a killing.  Now don’t you all abandon your computers and run out to sell off your gold at the same time.  The rest of us need you here!

Of course we also have to stay alert for a communist takeover.  The Future of Intellectuals and the Rise of the New Class, Alvin W. Gouldner (one of MarthA’s heroes) into which I got into part way;  Reimagining Socialism, Katrina vanden Heuval. Didn’t nor will buy.  A bing to the right and a bang to the left! 

I say let the forces of communism duke it out with the forces of the religious right and they will eliminate each other and happily we will not have had to lift a finger, and we and the poor can continue to be happy in their poverty, unless they become conscious they need education.  For without education they will become victims to the inability to detect the demagoguery of both the left and the right who are only looking to increase their numbers because they each have their own selfish interests at heart.  They both use the poor as fodder for their own pseudo-intellectual programmes.

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By Night-Gaunt, October 8, 2009 at 12:11 pm Link to this comment

One of the things needed to be done is to halt the regress of this country down the garden path to theocracy. We have been going that way since 1980. By those who failed in 1934 and learned from their errors. Now they went the gradual path building from the top down and bottom up. If enough of the Progressives still in the Democratic party can derail the influences from the same types as are in the Republican party, the so-called “conservadems”, some of that might happen in our favor for a change.

Our opposition is legion, numerous in what they all want even if they have factions of their own they all agree they want something that the rest of us don’t. A theocratic corporate dictatorship here ruled by the wealthiest. About 12% are the hard core with the remainder (23%) being those who want a change to their Biblical ways of having a society. The rest will go along with it in bulk. Especially if we have the Greater Depression which is still waiting to be triggered right now. Once people decides that our gov’t is useless they will turn to the next best thing. It will be there to scoop everyone up.

Get Max Blumenthal‘s new book “Republican Gamorrah” for the inside scoop on the extreme theocrats that took over the Republican party.

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By Leefeller, October 8, 2009 at 11:35 am Link to this comment

ThomasG,

Since you seem to have Cristal balls and know what She was doing during the Ronald Regan years, do you also happen to know what everyone else was doing?

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By Shenonymous, October 8, 2009 at 11:35 am Link to this comment

1.
ThomasG, I am more croaky than you can imagine, I have laryngitis.  I was too young, too yuppie, and too naive during the Reagan regime.  I did live under his governorship of California though and was dismayed at his aggressive and imperialistic nature with respect to foreign policy.  Makes me wonder what those repercussions are in retrospect?  I am not a political historian and have to read more to understand the actual effect he had on this country.  He did have a role in getting the Berlin Wall dismantled.  He also was responsible for a huge amount of land set aside in California for state parks.  As President, his Reganomics policy that reduced taxes was probably a huge factor in the gradual eroding of the country’s financial structure. 

There is no reason for you to call me names, ThomasG, there could be a myriad of reasons why people do things they do.  However, the new way you explained your position in your last post was much more appreciated than the gangbuster approach you had previously shown and the puny way you try to frame my point of view.  I don’t like what you just did and it makes me want only to give you the middle finger.  You are tiresome to me in your incessant recital of socialism.

I will think further bout what you said with interest and thoughtfulness since I have a genuine care about this world and especially America.  It showed better to me that you care what is happening in the world.  I read what you had to say about socialized capitalism.  Presently I do not believe what you say could happen, can happen.  Just as a quick reaction (which I am willing to revise once seeing your point clearer and find any agreement), I don’t think denying vast concentrations of wealth is really the right way to go to fix the problem of poverty. It seems the change in economic strategy is for the poor and not for any other group.  It is the poor who are said to be exploited.  My curiosity asks are you among that group?  Other economic strata of people have the means to protest.  Poverty happens not only because the corporate world takes advantage of that population in their greed and modes of operation.  Poverty happens because of ignorance and only education, proper education, will change that.  There is no program in the world that will fix poverty at once.  But ramifications are possible that will affect the entire population that may not be in the interest of freedom and liberty. If you want to help the poor, help them become educated and able to work for a better wage.  Course right now, this country needs more than 6 million jobs, and that is the blunt reality.

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By Shenonymous, October 8, 2009 at 11:32 am Link to this comment

2. To ThomasG and anyone else interested.
There can only be a gradual change, if it is to be permanent, with those who run the government keeping an eye on the benefit of the population rather than their own behinds and corporate interests.  Privatized capitalism that supports the corporate architecture is without any argument self-serving.  It is their reason for existence and I do not find fault with that per se.  There is a validity to a privatized capitalized system.  The fact that it has ascended to such a level of corruption is that they have not had any regulation.  Regulation is antithetical to Republican political philosophy.  However, anything has the capacity for corruption, which is why controls need to be put in place.  However, also, if those controls are not exercised, it wouldn’t matter if it was a socialized capitalistic system or a privatized system.  It is a couple of things that come of business without controls or regulation that is heir to corruption and lends itself to taking advantage of the citizenry.  And we have to note that the citizenry is composed of the abjectly poor to the abjectly rich and every strata in between.  Affecting government simply because they have wealth must be eliminated completely. That doesn’t stop them from making great wealth.  Government must step outside that arena.  Laws on the books must be enforced.  And/or new enforceable ones made.  I remember a time when monopolies were taboo.  This restraint needs to revived.  No politician may take one bloody dollar from a corporation for any reason at all.  And the Supreme Court must rule that way!  More public oversight as to what their representative politicians do must be created.  The public will exercise their power with their votes and get rid of a politician who turns corrupt or does not represent them in their best interest.  Only they can say what is in their best interest, democratically.  It should not be up to Congress to decide what are political reforms.  They are a body and will vote for their own perceived best interest not the public’s.  That is the way of the world.  All politicians are subject to the same corrupting influences regardless of whether they represent democratic or socialistic systems.  All politicians and none are exempt.

We are in the information age.  Very little will get by the purview of the public anymore.  Politicians are under a magnifying glass and they need to know that. 

You may be surprised that I say I look forward to your continued argument on behalf of socialized capitalism since it is still an inchoate concept to me.

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By Anarcissie, October 8, 2009 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous:
‘Sounds like socialized capitalism is an not only an oxymoron but it is antithetical to the American idea of freedom.  Socialized capitalism means the government would take over all of the banks and other financial agencies… ‘

Yes, Lenin tried that.  Not just the banks, but all the large industries.  He called this “state capitalism”, by which he meant that the “socialist” state would stand in the place of the private owner, but otherwise social relations would remain pretty much as before.  The way this worked out in practice was that, although the workers nominally owned the means of production, the nomenklatura in fact operated and controlled them.  They became the “new class” of Milovan Djilas.  And these evolved in the 1980s and ‘90s into what we see now: regular old private capitalists.

But, of course, that was what they were all along—a managerial elite.  It was the anarchists who took over the factories who were actually trying to practice socialism, and we know what Lenin did with them.
 
Socialism isn’t control by the government.  I think I’ve pointed that out at least once a week on the Net since the Net got started, but it still hasn’t gotten though.  Somehow the idea of working people owning and controlling their means of production, although there are millions of examples of it in the world, is blanked out of public discussion and thought.

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By ThomasG, October 8, 2009 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 8 at 12:50pm,

Why didn’t you speak up with what you say about simplicity and complexity during the time that the simple minded Ronald Wilson Reagan was destroying this country with his simple minded solutions that enabled the organized looting of the United States by the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS advocating SUPPLY-SIDE ECONOMICS and DEREGULATION that in the end led to the bankruptcy of the nation, caused by Borrow and Spend Governance and destruction of the U.S. Economy by deindustrialization and financialization resulting in the biggest financial bubble in the history of the World breaking and bringing down the economy of the United States and the World?

Now you have something to say when others are trying to execute solutions to the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST mess, but when the cause was happening, you were the singing frog.

As a singing frog, why do you only feel the need to sing during times of effect, rather than during times of cause?

A frog that only sings during times of effect didn’t serve the finder of the frog well in the cartoon portrayal, and doesn’t serve literal reality well, either; if the frog can only sing during times of effect.

You are tiresome as a singing frog that only sings during times of effect; learn to sing during times of cause and you will be a more useful and respected frog, and those who hear you sing won’t always be trying to put you behind them and pass you by.

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By ThomasG, October 8, 2009 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, October 8 at 12:36am,

Socialized Capitalism would socialize capital so that socialized resources would never again have to be used to hold up the value of privatized capital.

However, Socialized Capitalism would leave Capitalism to function as Capitalism, with entrepreneurs and management having the independence to seek the benefit of Capitalism that presently exists, short of assets that provide a revenue stream, capital.  Capital would reside in a new investment banking institution that would provide venture capital and receive the revenue stream of capital for the greater good of all of the people of the nation, rather than the greater greed of a select few privatized capitalists within the nation.

Socialized Capitalism would eliminate the self-serving lobbyists and special interest groups that infest both Houses of Congress and the U.S. Government, because socialized capitalism would deny the vast concentrations of wealth that currently exist from privatized assets that provide a revenue stream and thereby both fund the government with the revenue stream of capital, and make the government more directly responsible to the people by eliminating self-serving interests of privatized capital that currently stands between the people and their elected representatives in pursuit of self-serving greed and special interests contrary to the interests of the MAJORITY Population of the United States.

Socialized Capitalism will serve the greater good of the United States and the MAJORITY Population of the United States.  It is time for a change from Privatized Capitalism that serves the greater greed of an EXTREME minority population of the United States in service to their greater greed, to Socialized Capitalism that serves the greater good of the MAJORITY Population of the United States.

It is time for an end to Privatized Capitalism that depends upon socialized resources for its cyclical existence.

It is time for Socialized Capitalism, so the MAJORITY Population of the United States do not have to be cyclically poor and continually have nothing but their dreams, because all of their socialized resources are used to prop up the value of Privatized Capital from which they do not receive benefit from the revenue stream.

It is time for a change.  It is time for the sun to set on Privatized Capitalism and for the sun to rise to a NEW DAWN of Socialized Capitalism to serve the greater good, instead of the greater greed.

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By Shenonymous, October 8, 2009 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

DEIMOS (or Deimus) was the Greek god (daimon) of fear, dread and terror, and his twin-brother PHOBOS (Phobus) of panic fear, flight and battlefield rout. They were twin sons of the god Ares, god of war, who accompanied their father into battle, driving his chariot and spreading fear in their wake, and Aphrodite, goddess of love. If these are archetypes of human sentiments, passion, and the cause of action, what do they represent? Both parent god and goddess are ruled by emotion, as are their progeny. Both sons give a picture of human irrationality. The god of reason, Apollo, then must be called on to mediate. Human calm and reason to figure out solutions that most benefit humankind must ultimately rule action rather than reaction.

New theories often bring fresh blood to depressing problems and have the effect of reenergizing a system that has been corrupted, gone apathetic, or more likely, sent affected members into the arms of the God of Fear causing chaos and eventually mental paralysis.

OzarkMichael and Leefeller while focusing on different features still offer a non-turbulent way of proceeding and are worth examining further. 

The problems that face our nation are complex. I think complexity always exists when great numbers of people with diverse interests and philosophical outlooks (meaning either secular or religious perspective). When government cannot keep up, it indicates a couple of things.  Too many crises are on the table at the same time, which is the present condition they are facing. Too many politicians are on the employee list of corporations or other invested interests, such as labor unions, churches, etc., and act with their votes on the behalf of those entities rather than transcend their interests instead of thinking what is best for the country as a whole as Congress is a body that was created on behalf of the entire population not particular interests.  This distraction of politicians who are watching out for their own derrieres slows everything down to a painful pace.  The litany is repetitious and deafening to the ears of the population who want and demand change. When a solution is not apparent, Congress tends to make laws rather than enforce the laws already enacted. This causes a morass and feeling of defeat in the citizenry. The notion that good government is not possible is a sign of that defeatism. 

If as suggested it is possibly because this country is too big, doesn’t really sound correct. The size of the country has changed in terms of population. That is the most important change over the decades when this country was at the top of its game. We declare there was a time when it was a top notch country and the evidence is that most people outside of the USA still want to immigrate here more than to any other country.  We have to stop a minute to ask ourselves why?  There is a greatness to the underlying basis for this country’s existence lasting for 233 years. These bases are protected freedoms and liberties, which it must be kept in mind are in themselves actually are at odds to each other to some degree. We are required to ask how to restrain population?

If complexity is the problem, then we who are interested in repairing this country have to work out how best to simplify the issues so they can be handled efficiently and with egalitarian resolve. Seems like those who can effect changes are sorting through various kinds of fixes.  Clearly they don’t have all the answers, they are testing which ones are. I don’t have the answers except for one that will take time, education.  It is too simple an answer.  Education comes in a various wardrobe.  Education rises in importance and along with that, what the imperative content is.  This is a long term fix, without mere lip service given to it,

The fact that there is much dialogue happening in the public venues is a good sign that public consciousness is rising.

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By elisalouisa, October 8, 2009 at 8:34 am Link to this comment

As various forms of government are discussed it is with the assumption that
Americans will have a choice. Observing the invisible takeover by the elites of
government and Wall Street I don’t know that it will be our decision to make.
The common man as Martha would say, was valuable in the building of
America. Through ownership of his own home and freedom this truly was the
land of rebirth for many people. As our jobs gradually left America this enabled
the elites, gave them more power, first through their investments and secondly
they did not have to deal with the working man and his unions. No one
protested the loss of our jobs. Our representatives in Washington were part of
it as they got their payoffs under the table. Point is, those who rule can now get
along without most of us. Their goods come from other countries and their
finances are secured most likely in other countries also as the CEOs of
companies get millions of dollars in bonuses through taxpayer bailout money.
Hate to tell you but many of us are expendable. Do we really have a choice as to
our type of government? You tell me.

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By Leefeller, October 8, 2009 at 7:33 am Link to this comment

Is it possible congress is not really as stupid as most of in congress sound? Seems the extreme stupidity sponsor by the less intelligent are paraded before our eyes on the tube. Occasionally a person of Congress speaks with thought and reason behind their comments, from what I have seen this is a clear minority. 

Seemingly as in any association or club, is their some sort of osmosis to the lowest common denominator working here?
If one associates with any group, street gangs come to mind, it seems peer pressure moves individuals to want respect of their fellows, morons or not.

Lobbyists and graft may take its toll on reason and shove integrity into the closet.  It seems the paid-offs in different ways are working, if for anything providing grid lock for no deciders. Well, there is always a book to write and a job waiting in the wings, being in Congress is a degree of notoriety.

The super majority the Democrats seem to be failing in their agreements and promises.  Congress seems most proficient at talking from both sides of their mouths. My suspicion is they really want to fail, only hope left is they prove me wrong.

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By Sleeper, October 8, 2009 at 6:48 am Link to this comment

Your theory has merit,yet other older theories have as much merit.

If God is within and responsible for the creation of all things then both the true light and all reflexions of this true light have the same source.  No theory of governence will satisfy this flux of energy as it expands and contracts on its journey from its source first outward then in upon the source.

A fate overrides munipulations, yet each munipulation sends out ripples that will eventually collapse upon themselves.

I think it is the common theme that sells these theories.  A belief in greener pastures on the outside induces change while a wiser comfort in stability appreciates the blessing inherent in each day.

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By OzarkMichael, October 8, 2009 at 6:13 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous says: I am a liberal but the more I read these socialists’ rhetoric, the more as a reflex, I begin to move toward the right.

Interesting reflex. We need to talk about atheism more. See if we can get the same type of reflex to kick in.

Some politicians know how to run a government as large and diverse as the US and some don’t.

I am developing a little theory about this. It is my own, but i am sure someone else thought of it first. Also i am not sure if it is true or not. Its just a thought.


My theory is that there is a limit to how much effective governance can be performed. When governance cant keep up, we all reflexively blame our favorite targets: Republicans, Democrats, corporations, capitalism. In moments of honesty we admit that the problem is something deeper or more complex so we do what Shenonymous did, we begin to look for new answers, but we still cant be sure about it.

This is where my theory comes in. The problems have become so complex that it simply cant be managed. Even the people making the law dont seem to know the law(Charlie Rangel) and people in charge of voting for new laws dont have time to actually read them.

Maybe it isnt because of bad intentions or laziness or stupidity. Maybe good governance isnt possible because we are too big and complex to govern at all.

Just a thought. So please give me yours.

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By Sleeper, October 7, 2009 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment

I saw the movie and it connects the dots quite well.

Micheal Moore shows us the things that the mainstream media would love to leave convuluted in a host of mixed messages designed to cloud the minds of those who care about our future. 

He calls people to action against the real criminals.

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By Night-Gaunt, October 7, 2009 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

Capitalism, a word coined by either Marx or Engles is the use of it. Now there are many types of it not a single type as is usually portrayed here. Yes a capitalism under control and we all have socialist safety net. No starving and homeless people ever again.

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By Shenonymous, October 7, 2009 at 9:36 pm Link to this comment

Sounds like socialized capitalism is an not only an oxymoron but it is
antithetical to the American idea of freedom.  Socialized capitalism means the
government would take over all of the banks and other financial agencies
similar to the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.  There are better options, one as
proposed by economist, Robert Reich, 1) as long as the bailout lasts, when the
taxpayers insure a megalithic entity against loss, the top executives cannot
receive an annual compensation higher than the that paid to the most
important executive for this country, the President; 2) The government gets 5%
of the bailed out company’s current value as shares of stock (this more or less
represents the benefit tot he shareholders of the federal insurance) and if and
when they become profitable again, taxpayers are compensated for the risk
taken. 

Another argument against the double speak of socialized capitalism, is that it
isn’t capitalism that has failed, it is in fact socialism.  The problem with the
American mortgage finance titans Freddie and Fannie is the implicit
government guarantee that was guaranteeing their debt.  If it had not been for
that, the two wouldn’t have been allowed to borrow so much money.  Also
those buying houses’ ability to buy houses not on their own credit but on
government credit.  The gargantuan bubble would not have inflated if pure
laissez faire free market economy had been in operation.  The low lending
rates is what enabled they homebuyers to obtain credit that was too cheap. 

It was poor governance that caused the financial turbulence.  Some politicians
know how to run a government as large and diverse as the US and some don’t. 
It doesn’t mean the entire economic philosophy needs changed.  Socialism
failed. The problem has been that socialism seeped into the capitalist model
for at least a hundred years or more.  There are without a doubt
constructive and beneficial pragmatic uses for socialistic management of
public resources such as for health care/medicine, when a homogenous
program provides equal opportunity for decent care for the population. 
Government assumption of all the financial institutions would be a huge
mistake but rational regulation would not. 

I am a liberal but the more I read these socialists’ rhetoric, the more as a
reflex, I begin to move toward the right.  Of course there are problems over
there as well.  Just as bad, but nevertheless I see the intrusion of communism
as utterly repugnant. 

Americans love to own property and love to own businesses and that is not
going to change regardless of how much the loud howling issues forth from
radical socialists.  It has something to do with freedom which we all know is
not in the socialist programmes.  There has been a historic effort to take
over the freedoms Americans have had and while the socialists have that
pipedream that is all it will be.  It is an insidious infestation laying in wait like
an envious and voraciously insatiable snake.  Take over the economy then
what is next?  Everything.  America will not be the fruition of the Marxist
dream.

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By MarthaA, October 7, 2009 at 7:56 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, October 7 at 9:42pm,

DOWN with Privatized Capitalism and UP with Socialized Capitalism. 

The only thing necessary to Capitalism is capital, assets that provide a revenue stream. Capitalists owning privatized capital that is dependent upon tens of trillions of dollars of socialized responsibility for privatized benefit needs to come to an abrupt END.

The cycle of private capital’s value being upheld by socialized resources that has gone on since the beginning of Capitalism and leading to the current injections of tens of trillions of socialized resources to maintain the value of privatized capital must come to an END; this is “Smash and Grab Capitalism”, it is time for a change from “Smash and Grab Capitalism” to Socialized Capitalism.

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By Anarcissie, October 7, 2009 at 6:42 pm Link to this comment

Mestizo Warrior:
’... Capitalism thrives on social injustice, war, imperialism, racism and the arrogant despise of working class people! So how could it be good??’

It depends what you compare it with, I guess.  It is inferior to imaginary utopias, including my own, but it was a big improvement over feudalism and classical slavery.  In fact, liberalism and capitalism (the two are really one) were probably the most revolutionary transformative social force ever unleashed in history, as Marx shows in the Communist Manifesto.  (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/)

It is especially important to know what capitalism actually does and how it functions if you want to replace it.  Just calling it bad names or whining about it is a waste of time—someone else will do it for you.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, October 7, 2009 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

In the land of bend-over-and-take-its, the man with the broom handle is king.

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By Mestizo Warrior, October 7, 2009 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

Michael Moore is a genius in that he uses film to expose and educate the American people on the many flaws of our society. (Unfortunatley many cannot be educated as they prefer to wallow in their own bigotry and ignorance)

While today’s capitalism may not be the same as the capitalism of the time of Adam Smith, it is capitalism nevertheless. Today making profit, ownership of property or resources and phoney market concepts take priority over the rights of human beings more so than ever! (our current crisis in healthcare is a prime example)

Capitalism cannot be reformed nor can it be made more humane any more than a shark can be tamed or made to feel empathy for it’s prey. Capitalism has deep roots in greed, selfishness, narcissism and the love of power and wealth! Such attributes are never associated with concern for society as a whole or even the welfare of individuals. Is capitalism bad? I would have to say that it is. The concept of being responsible and owning a small business has very little to do with the love of money over anything else! The Good Book describes the love of money as being the root of all evil and there is a lot to be said for that. Capitalism thrives on social injustice, war, imperialism, racism and the arrogant despise of working class people! So how could it be good??

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