INTRODUCTION

Israelis have the land for peace debate in Israel, but such is the power of the Israeli lobby and media that we cannot have that same debate amongst our own politicians.

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I am a people lover BUT it seems that lately people who call themselves “JEWS” or “ZIONISTS” have not at all been doing themselves any favors at all, in fact they keep making one embarrasing mistake after the other. they describe themsleves as the “chosen people” which would mean a “near perfection” BUT their actions and words always go contrary to that its like nonstop bunglings.
In fact, lately almost everybody has been able to prove the LIES and BIGGER LIES and the PATRIOTIC LIES that they been telling for ages, I mean if you are “chosen people” do you think that you can pull the wool over everyone’s eyes forever, i mean doesnt your perfection tell you what is going to mess you up on the long term? ( eg LIES) I have heard that “if you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth” well maybe Americans & Larry King Believe that but other people of the planet about 6 billion might not subscribe to that and also might even have alternate Sources of informations.
Also noteworthy is that the number of UNO resolutions vetoed by the USA for the Sake of Israel is way way higher than any other vetos. and then in the wars USA been supplying the Israelis with all kinds of Support from logistical to intelligence but the Israelis LIE and try to declare themselves something like a nation of RAMBOs. that “we did it all alone” BS!
Had it not been for unconditional US support which was garnished by armtwisting and blackmail fo US politicians and people, Israel would not be what it is today.
And then I do REMEMBER seeing how many Israeli spy rings were deactivated in the USA, NOW that I DO NOT GET, i mean do the Israelis have ANY FRIENDS AT ALL?
Another thing, i read in a some very authentic article that described the ZIONISTS/Israelis, it said that they usually attack the person personally with Insults and what not rather than giving logical points in reply and that is true here even on this page. I would term that CHILDISH coz a trick is a trick for a year or two not 3 centuries later.
Another Weird thing I found, although these people will fight and want to die for Israel they never want to move there or have never ever even been there either. which i found really weird.
About the palestinains, i think that years of persecution and harrasment ( not to mention killing and eviction) can drive you to vote for an organisation like HAMAS coz years later you do get really really sick of the BS.

BTW a correction here the US politicians are not BRIBED they are harrassed and threatenned and told that one word against Israel and you are gone and in the next election too you will loose, look up the youtube for AIPAC claims and details.
And its true JEWS do not consider themselves a religion, if you read their journals, they consider themselves a TRIBE, i too had the misconception that it was a RELIGION.

wish people would WISEN up or wake up and get real!

RE:#107066 by Howard on 10/14 at 3:14 pm

Maybe you didn’t hear about the reception given by Israelis to the influx of Ethiopian (black) Jews some time back.  Get the whole picture, or keep mum.

#107066 by Howard on 10/14 at 3:14 pm

You just refuse to use the word Palestinians.
Is it such a dirty word?

So all the Bulldozing and Murder and Rape never happened?  We got it all wrong?  Israel is a modern democracy where Palestinians have equal rights?  The IDF are there to protect the lives of Palestinians?

So 700,000 Palestinians were not evicted from their homes?  And anyone has the right to return to their homes?

So these terrorists just spontaneously decided to start killing themselves and anyone near enough… there is no Cause/Effect motivation…because they are “Evil Doers”?  Maybe it’s because they are scum animals?

What does it feel like to be proud of a society built on the Rape and Murder and destruction of another?  What kind of human being does one become where murder is just conveniently ignored?......I don’t expect you to feel anything except of course the Holocaust.  As we all know, that event mitigates all other “lesser” concerns of humanity.

What ever bullshit Israel spins out to CNN is just erroded by endless reports of human rights violations against Palestinians.  And those clipped tales of woes of bombs going off in Tel Aviv are so unbalanced that no one with half a brain could possibley think the EFFECT happens without a CAUSE.

RE: #106859 by Mossada on 10/13 at 3:32 pm

Add Sen. Joseph Lieberman to your list of prospective emigrants.  Who needs an Israeli lobby when you’ve got someone in the US Senate representing Israel rather than his own constituents? 

I hope everyone watched the C-SPAN coverage of the book-signing event for THE ISRAEL LOBBY.  The authors are remarkably fair-minded and rational and their detractors anything but.

I don’t know where you got your information, but when the Israelis supposedly pulled out of Gaza, all the major networks provided on-site coverage of homes and infrastructure there being demolished as they withdrew (temporarily).  The excuse given by Israel was that communities they had built were not appropriate to the Palestinians’ way of life and that they could reconstruct everything more in keeping with their needs.  Bullshit.  With what?  The rubble left behind? This modus operandi simply reflects that of the biblical Hebrews who, time and time again in scripture, don’t leave one stone standing on another after they raid a city, kill all the men and women “who have lain with man” and then confiscate the animals and abduct the young virgins for their own use.  The “God” who allegedly ordered all that is the same one still worshipped, and the disregard for non-Jewish human life among “obsevant” Jews is still rooted in Mosaic Law. If you want to understand today’s problem, go back to the Bible.

Israel is a Racist Society.
It was built on a racist premis.
And all the lies of its right wing clique can’t hide their bigotry and spin. 

The only thing holding Israel together is hate of anyone non-Jewish.  Otherwise Israelis would be busy bitching about each other.

Ohhhh, here comes the Holocaust song….Duck!!!

Palestinians should leave the holy land and let the Israelis build a giant wall all around their precious country.  Then the world can leave Israelis to enjoy their “Purity”. (Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle etc. can move there too since they love it so much.)

Then the rest of the world can turn their back on Israel for all eternity and let them rot in their own holiness.

#106794 by jim70 on 10/13 at 8:13 am

Zionism was established as a movement by Theodor Hertzl in the late nineteenth century, but it had its origins earlier as a result of continuing persecution of Jews, even after the French Revolution, when the influence of secularism and reason seemed to promise a reprieve.  Herzl himself had opposed it until that hope withered on the vine.

So those “Christians” who disallowed Jews the right to live unmolested—or to live, period—have to bear responsibility ultimately for the impetus that created the State of Israel in 1948.  It is understandable, especially after the Holocaust, that Jews should have wanted and the world granted them a place of their own in which to live without the constant threat of harm, and the emotional fallout from WWII provided a climate in which that became possible. 

Unfortunately, the duplicity of the British, who had a mandate in Palestine following WWII, contributed to the mess that obtains to this day.  Handled differently, the situation there might have resulted in an entirely different and more peaceful and just outcome.

What rubs me the wrong way is that many of the most trenchant elements of Israeli society today who are hell bent on hanging onto as well as expanding illegal settlements are not Jews seeking refuge from persecution, but American Jews who have left comfortable homes and incomes in the United States to further a religious, not a humanitarian or even a political, agenda. What further galls me is that the Christian Right in this country, eager to speed up the Biblical prophecy on which IT relies for its messianic expectations, has joined the ultra-Fundamentalists in Israel in supporting their encroachment on Palestinian land and is urging the West Bank settlers to stay put, no matter what. Both of these factions exert tremendous pressure in the “Israel Lobby.”

I am not about to die, nor send my children to die, for the preservation of anybody’s imagined rights based on factually unsubstantiated religious grounds. If all these warring factions—Jewish, Christian and Islamic—abided by the best their ethical and moral traditions offer as a guide to human behavior (basically identical in all three belief systems), everybody would be able to get along very nicely and bring about the peace to which so many give (lukewarm) lip service.  At the very least, Jews with their history of being the world’s whipping boy, should, of all people, have the decency to treat the Palestinians in the occupied areas like human beings!!  If they did that, the random attacks against the occupiers, born no doubt from the extremes of desperation and frustration among a brutalized population, would cease. Oppression will always make enemies, no matter where: Iraq, Israel—even (are you listening George?)—America.

The basic “right” on which Israelis claim title to the “Holy Land” is that God gave it to them in perpetuity.  No one ever stops to consider that it was hardly a generous gift—certainly not “spacious” as the Bible alleges, nor flowing with milk and honey.  The awful truth that it isn’t adequate to accommodate even its current population begs the question of how all the Jews of the world will even find standing room there should the much quoted prophecy of their ultimate return en masse be fulfilled!

Ah, but the Talmudists have the answer.  Jerusalem is going to expand to cover all of Israel, which, in turn, is going to expand to cover the entire earth. Ask any Chassidic rabbi. Of course, the Chassidim also believe that all Jews must rise from the dead in Israel, regardless of where they died, so it is held by the sages that those buried elsewhere will roll through burrows underground (prepared for that purpose) so they can exit their graves in the flesh at the proper place.  Why they don’t just wait till Israel expands to cover the whole world is something of a mystery.  That sounds like a lot less trouble.

Anybody who supports the suppression or annhilation of the Palestinians on behalf of Zionist illusions or contemplates bombing Iran because Israel considers it a potential threat should do a bit of research into religious Jews’ concept of what will happen when Moshiach (the messiah—but not Jesus) comes and the final judgment is carried out.  Let’s just say the prospects for eternity advanced by Christians and Jews are mutually exclusive.

I am vehemently against persecution of anyone, and I’m aware that any revelation of an unpleasant truth about any specific group is grist for the mill of hate mongers.  But that does not preclude the need for a more thorough understanding of the ultra-Fundamentalist mentality that’s a driving force behind the illegal Israeli settlements and the resistance to any peace agreement that is truly fair to the Palestinians. 

Truth to tell, as long as anybody considers a square foot of Mother Earth to be “sacred,” there’s not much chance of rational discourse that might lead to peace. She’s either sacred entirely or not at all, and we humans are certainly not treating her with respect, much less reverence.

People
Could this be a coincidence???

1) TOM LANTOS (Neocon of the Democrats) behind infuriating the Turks. 

2) A sudden killing of Turkish soldiers at the border with Iraq. (Mossad death Squad)

This is too much of a coincidence.  AIPAC and Mossad are doing a number on US foreign policy.

I suspect Israel’s Machivellian hand behind this.

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Ok Jim…that would probably work.

Sorry Jim70, but unless can prove you are Jewish through your mothers bloodline going back at least 8 generations by a synagogue, no synagogue in Israel will recongnize you as a Jew, and you will not be allowed citizenship.

A brief history of Isreali policy:

Israel” never ever recognized the existence of the indigenous owners of Palestine: the Palestinian people.Golda Meir once said “What Palestinians?”
2// Israel never implemented a single UN resolution since its anomalous and questionable creation including UN 181 which created it-by devouring large chunks of the would be Palestine state in 1947, nor UN 194 of the same year which dictates the return of Palestinian refugees now multiplied into seven million who are still living in refugee camps outside Palestine for the past 60 years.
3/// Jewish terrorist gangs such as Haganah, Palmach, Shtern and Argun used extreme violence to ethnically cleanse thousands of Palestinians and destroyed over five hundred Palestinians villages to prevent their return as per UN 194-which 60 years later Israel still refuses to implement. Israel was built on and continues to survive on respectively gang and state terrorism. Even Israeli revisionist historians have uncovered and documented Israeli ethnic cleansing to establish the racist state in 1947.
4// No land or resources are left whatsoever for a Palestinian state: Israel occupied 78&#xof; Arab historic Palestine in 1947/8 and 22% in 1967 (West Bank, Gaza and most importantly Jerusalem which was built by the Canaanite Arabs long before there ever were Jews on earth) AND again Israel annexed-slowly but surely by implanting settlements in full day light- over 58% of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem-leaving less than 10% of original Arab historic Palestine for a Palestinian state??? Today AP reported that Israel grabbed 1100 hectares of Palestinian land near Jerusalem-just before the American sponsored “peace conference” next month.
Radicalism only begets radicalism and if the destruction of a whole nation of Palestinians and building a state on their ruins and tormenting them for over sixty years is not radicalism and terrorism-what is? Even the present Israeli defense minister Yahoud Barrack once said: “If I were a Palestinian I would be a terrorist.”  Many members of the Likud party have publically stated they never intended to recongnize the borders of Israel as established by the UN charter that created the country.

So LilMamzer, are you an Israli Citizen or an American Traitor?  Either way you should get your happy arse on a plane to the kibbutz.

BTW, my first wife was Jewish.  I am only opposed to Christian or Jewish Zionist AMERICANS THAT PLACE THE INTEREST OF ISRAEL ABOVE THAT OF THE US.

What interesting posts, thanks to all.
I think it important to add that the anger directed at Jews in this thread is understandable, but it is important to realize that many Jews are working hard to end Zionism, which is the real underlying problem of the Jewish state. Many Jews see the damage being caused, the hardships being foisted on others, and the ultimate manipulation of other countries including the US; as the usurpation that it most certainly is.
Therefore it would be better to direct your anger at Zionists (both Christian and Jewish) as the real culprits in this outrage, as “blaming Jews” only polarizes those who would otherwise join us in ending fascist Zionism.

How refreshing not to be monitored or muzzled by a
controlling press, receive news by programmed sitcom-like TV coverage, or have to interact with the compromised “elected” representatives to express one’s views. W&M;, as well as President Carter, have taken a giant step in circumventing the parameters that dictate what the American public should think and feel, and exposing truths that heretofore have been systematically squelched. Most informed persons are only too aware of the smoke-and-mirrors creation of the Israeli state, its ruthless campaign of barbaric ethnic cleansing, land appropriation and continued intimidation of it’s neighbors, ie: its recent, baseless, invasion into Syrian space, unjustifed invasion of Lebanese infrastructures that took over 1,000.- civilian lives. Is this country, behind the scenes, controlled by Olmert, Netanyahu and Avigdor Leiberman?  Are we going to be pushed into another war, sacrifice more American lives, to allay Israeli anxieties?  Wake up America!
Long live President Carter!
Remember the USS Liberty!

WHO’S DREAM

Is the Israeli, American connection really that much a mystery. With America’s inception being predicated on banning together England’s down trodden. Therefore the consequential interaction between conjoined organism factions, England’s tax oppression and the new colonies self determination creates a modality of creative liberalism as a nations innate direction. Then comes along Hitler’s cruelty toward it’s Jewish population and the American’s open their peace loving hearts and arms, surprise an allegiance to liberalism’s progressive equal rights thinking.

Then as America’s adopted, the Jews propagated and with the aid of nepotism, grew their hierarchy dominance in the fields of entertainment/news, and academia’s medical, judicial and financial direction, well if one was to dominate, not by an overwhelming majority but with a decisive edge, like (9 to 8.9999… ) then the “advantage of leverage is your’s and you have effectively cloned yourself. Therefore America’s growing love and there by allegiance to a mercantile mentality as a collective commerce mindset. Where everything is than a pathetic analogy equated to money, a little house with a picket fence, two cars in every garage and a chicken in every pot. America’s greed where everything can be solved with more money.

Now we American’s may not all go to the same synagogue, but we worship at the same alter, the cash register.

In a universe with it’s predilection in duality, if “The devil is in the details”, then logically God must be in the “whole”. Therefore, this means the same matrix configuration that governs the individual components also governs the composite “whole”.

Which indicates that the matrix configuration found in physical cloning (biological) is the same matrix found in metaphysical (psychological) cloning. The body in conjunction with the head equals the animated “whole” of man, and therefore God is in the process.

Then the logical conclusion would be that by sidestepping the ameliorating effects of “Time” (evolutions natural selection), would then bring the maladies associated with age (evolutions manifest hate toward ethnic domination), sooner than later.

But then the genius of the “whole”, (totality) would be missed by the mastery of the superfluous

Akira, moving to Russia is a bit hasty. Remember, there are 10 million Moslems and only 6 million Jews in the U.S., and Israel has zero oil while the Arab world is awash in it, so as long as we (and the rest of the world) self-destruct on oil and other fossil fuel you may yet live to see pogroms against American Jews. Also, some of the Muslim communities in Canada have pushed for Sharia law to take the place of Canadian law in domestic matters and if that trend continues and heads south, it’s only a matter of time until Jews are once again living in dhimmihood (Arabic for “second class citizen who pays more taxes and has fewer rights”).

When “land for peace” was still under consideration, the Arab Israelis in several towns suggested by Israeli negotiators to become part of the Palestinian state (in exchange for land on which Jews were living in the West Bank) were quite adamant in refusing. In the Knesset, one of their representatives shouted firmly that “We’re Israelis; you can’t just make us Palestinians!” So it didn’t happen. Arab Israelis are NOT second-class citizens, vote and have reps in the Knesset, and MAY but are not compelled to serve in the IDF, as all Jewish citizens are required to do. So many Arab Israelis do join IDF because they must believe that Israel is worth defending, even at the risk of their lives.

As for the all-powerful AIPAC, America supports Israel in general, but selectively. If it were not for the people of the Czech Republic who gave Israelis weapons when all the Arab armies (including the British-armed Jordanian forces) attacked the nascent Jewish state in ‘48, there would be no state of Israel. Likewise, in ‘67 no country, including the U.S., rushed to Israel’s aid with guns or money; the world just sat there and waited to see what would happen. The U.S. also gives much money to the Palestinians, as do Euros, Russians and Moslem countries. If the Palestinian governments had spent a fraction of what they receive on infrastructure and education, instead of using it to keep Suha Arafat and other connected elites living large in Paris and other expensive playgrounds, there would already be a viable state.

Israel does not want America to go to war with Iran—and Israelis were HUGELY upset last year when Cheney tossed off that even if Iran established a nuclear weapons facility the Israelis would take it out. They have no plans to attack Iran. Also, Sharon advised Bush to NOT attack Iraq because the WMDs had long since gone to Syria. Perhaps Sharon should have gone public with his criticism, but Israel can’t afford to publically criticize a major ally led by such a reactive airhead.

Look at it this way: Israel does not waste its citizen army and its revenue on quixhotic wars. It attacked a Syrian nuclear facility it obviously considered an unacceptable threat, and the message that the U.S. neocons and Cheney should have drawn from it was that Israel does not believe at this point that Iran should be attacked, or it would have done so. To attack Iran would make enemies the Americans and, in many cases, Israelis, do not already have. Israelies understand this, being rational, and our government had damned well better start being rational too.

(If Israel were really as nasty to Palestinians as so many of you seem to think they are, would they have close Islamic allies among the Turks and the Kurds?)The problem isn’t Israel; it’s greedy oligarchical-minded Americans (and, in the Middle East, ditto Arabs). If Israel disappeared tomorrow, the Arab world would still be floundering and looking for someone or something else on which to blame its predicament.

PS - Someone here defined “Jewish” as a religion. But it’s not; it’s a peoplehood. If the Arabs had as many secularists as the Jews do both in Israel and the Diaspora, they’d be a lot farther ahead of the game.

I have an easy solution. 

First, we already have laws which make it illegal for federal employees to accept bribes or “illegal gratuities.”  We already have laws which prohibit certain public employees from engaging in conduct which is improper or which creates the appearance of impropriety. 

The problem is that the people who write those laws (Congress) and the people charged to enforce those laws (the judges) have made sure that they are exempt.  They are free to accept bribes and illegal gratuities even though it may appear that they are simply selling the power of their office to benefit themselves and in a complete betrayal of our democracy and of the working people of this country.

Let’s write new laws making it illegal for any candidate, politician, or judge, to accept anything or any promise of anything of value, other than from an immediate family member.  Period.  No exceptions.  And illegal for anyone to offer to pay or give anything of value.  With prison for the offenders just so they know we’re serious.  Open the prison doors to let the pot-smokers free and put the corrupt politicians in prison.  Sounds like our streets would be safer under my policy.

Next, there are laws in most states called “blue sky” laws which prohibit politicians from having private meetings in which certain things are discussed.  Let’s expand those laws to make it illegal for any politician or their staff or agents to discuss anything having to do with their office or their powers in secret.  All meetings and discussions must be in public and must be taped.  Other than meetings with each other (two senators, for example).  In other words, no more meetings with lobbyists.  Period. 

The politicians claim that they need these secret meetings because they get information about certain problems from industry insiders.  I believe they have secret meetings to keep the public from seeing the wheelbarrows full of cash being delivered to the politicians’ offices and homes, and other corrupt reasons(Cheney meeting with his oil friends and the maps of Iraq to disucss U.S. oil policy).  But even if they can come up with lame excuses, the need to end corruption and the appearance of corruption requires any such meetings be in public, be videotaped, and available to the public to watch and/or download by internet.  No more secret meetings, no more taking money from lobbyists and businesses.  It ends.

Third, U.S. Out of Israel.  Give them one year to resolve their problems (on top of the 60 they’ve already had).  If they can’t find a way to live in peace, they will have to leave.  If they want to stay despite the problems, that’s OK too but they will have to work it out on their own nickel.  No more money from the U.S. working people to support Israel. 

Like all lobbyists, it seems that (1) the Israeli lobbyists offer bribes to politicians to vote to give my money to Israel; (2) the politicians give my money to Israel; (3) some of that money is funneled back to pay the lobbyists, and for them to use as “expenses”; and (4) the lobbyists offer more bribes to politicians to vote to give more of my money of Israel.  I’m tired of having my money taken from me under the threat of imprisonment and given to support this corrupt system. 

And finally, for the catastrophic claims that Israel cannot exist unless the U.S. taxpayers give them billions of dollars every year:  I’d say the people of Israel should pack their bags because it is not the responsibility of U.S. working men and women to prop up their country.  They’ve had 60 years to work things out.  Either live with it or get out, but don’t keep taking my money, and don’t keep bribing my politicians to betray me.

So lilmamzer…you put the interest of Israel above that of the US.  Are you and Israeli citizen, or just a traitor?

Israelis have the land for peace debate in Israel, but such is the power of the Israeli lobby and media that we cannot have that same debate amongst our own politicians.

Divorce my arse.  It is past time that ALL monetary and military support for the terroist state of Israel is stopped, and that apartheid state respond to the more than 100 UN resolutions that have been passed against it.

Seems a lot of the correspondents here forget that during the ‘cold war’ Israel was the only pro-western country in the area. Thus strategically Israel was an extremely useful ally to the US.
It is still regarded as the only stable country in the region, and it is certainly the only democracy. The Soviets were active in the UAR and British influence was on the wane in the region.
Why should not the pro-Israel lobby be active? As the author of the essay states this is a perfectly legitimate activity.
I understand that for many years the US supported certain non-democratic regimes in Southern America and elsewhere. Why no book about the perfidiousness of supporting those countries?
The Palestinian “government” still refuses to accept the right of Israel to exist and intend to drive all the Jews into the sea. Why should not the Israeli lobbyists be active when their country is under threat from neighbours such as Syria and Iran, let alone Palestine (which used to Jordan, but the Jordanians relinquished it as the Palestinian population was ungovernable). Note also that Egypt did not want Gaza returned either.

The relationship between the US and Israel is complex and shouldn’t be reduced to the simplistic myth that the US is a slow, lumbering, bull; that’s being pulled around by the nose by a super-smart fox. Reality, as usual, is less comforting.

The relationship between the two countries is perceived by the elites of both states as being mutually beneficial, that’s why it’s lasted so long and has become deeper over time.

First I don’t believe that Israel ‘pushes the United States around’ line. This is just an excuse, or get out clause, one can conviniently use when things go badly wrong for the US. Blame it on Israel! They made us do it! We are really innocents in the world! Those Jews are just so damn sophisticated!

The great bull likes people to think the clever fox is pulling it around. This isn’t true. It is a myth which once again is mutually beneficial to both parties, as it obscures, diverts and hides the true nature of the relationship.

It is not only the United States that pays a high price for its relationship to Israel. Israel pays a price too, strange as it may seem to many. One could argue that Israel could have come to a compromise, an accomodation, with its Arab neighbours, could have become an integreted part of the Middle-East, if it had developed an independent foreign policy and not been so closely identified with US strategic interests in the region.

I think one can say that this relationship has had one dire consequence, it has strengthened those forces in both countries that have chosen to rely more and more on the use of military force to solve various ‘problems’ in the Middle-East.

Personally, I believe this tendency, isn’t really in the longterm interests of the United States or Israel, and certaninly not in the interests of the Arabs who suffer most directly from US/Israeli policies and actions. But, that, is anothr story.