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Milton Viorst on ‘The Israel Lobby’

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Posted on Oct 4, 2007
The Israel Lobby
israellobbybook.com

RELATED LINKS

The original article that inspired the book can be found on the London Review’s Web site.  The letters it provoked along with Mearsheimer and Walt’s reply are well worth reading.  The essay also prompted a response by, among others, Christopher Hitchens on Slate.  Some months later, the London Review of Books sponsored a debate at Cooper Union in New York City, which can be viewed here. Also, be sure to read this interview with the authors.

By Milton Viorst

About 30 or so years ago, when I first began to write of my concern that Israel was embarked on a course that would lead only to recurring wars, or perhaps worse, I received a letter from Abraham H. Foxman, then as now the voice of the Anti-Defamation League, admonishing me as a Jew not to wash our people’s dirty linen in public.  I still have it in my files.  His point, of course, was not whether the washing should be public or private; he did not offer an alternative laundry.  His objective was—and remains—to squelch anyone who is critical of Israel’s policies. 

    In the ensuing years, Foxman and a legion of like-minded leaders, most but not all of them Jewish, have been remarkably successful in suppressing an open and frank debate on Israel’s course.  In view of Israel’s impact on America’s place in the world, it is astonishing how little discussion its role has generated.  As a practical matter, the subject has been taboo.  John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, professors of political science at the University of Chicago and Harvard’s John F. Kennedy School of Government, respectively, have challenged this taboo in their new book, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy.”  Foxman, in an effort to discredit them, has written a rejoinder in his book “The Deadliest Lies: The Jewish Lobby and the Myth of Jewish Control.”

 

book cover

 

The Israel Lobby

 

By John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt

 

Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 496 pages

 

Buy the book

book cover

 

The Deadliest Lies

 

By Abraham H. Foxman

 

Palgrave Macmillanm, 256 pages

 

Buy the book

    The controversy over Mearsheimer and Walt’s views has been going on since March of last year, when they first presented their argument in the London Review of Books.  In their essay, they contended that support of the magnitude that the United States gives Israel might have been justified during the Cold War but is not defensible, “on either strategic or moral grounds,” under the conditions that currently prevail in the Middle East.  America’s unconditional backing, they argued, is harmful to its own interests and possibly even to Israel’s, and it is made possible only by the influence of the Israel lobby over U.S. foreign policy.  The article touched a sensitive chord among many of Israel’s defenders, generating a furor.  Now Mearsheimer and Walt have written a book which, while more comprehensive at nearly 500 pages, recapitulates the original themes.  Foxman acknowledges basing his book-length reply on the article, so impatient was he to proclaim its authors guilty of “distortions, omissions and errors.”

    The late social critic Irving Howe, deeply committed to Israel himself, used to argue that Jewish leaders like Foxman depend for their status on ceaselessly trumpeting the dangers faced by the Jewish people, and particularly by Israel, from a hostile world.  These leaders, Howe insisted, exploit the scars which inquisitions, pogroms and the Holocaust have left on the collective Jewish psyche, scars which distort Jewish political judgment.  Foxman is no doubt sincere in agonizing over the dangers that Jews have historically faced.  But Howe argued that these dangers had become a vested interest for the leaders of Jewish organizations, making an open and honest debate all but impossible in American Jewish circles and in America’s political culture generally. 

    Foxman does not quite accuse Mearsheimer and Walt—though other disapproving critics do—of being anti-Semitic.  But he uses intimidating language nonetheless, pointing to a “level of quiet, subtle bigotry—an attitude that may not run to the actual hatred of Jews but that assumes that Jews are somehow different, less respectable, less honorable, more treacherous, more devious than other people. ... [I]t’s only natural that people who exhibit this kind of bias against Jews should look a little askance at the special relationship that exists between American Jews and the nation of Israel.”   

    One can admit the legitimacy of Foxman’s warnings on anti-Semitism and still ask for the evidence of “subtle bigotry” in the Mearsheimer-Walt text.  I found none, unless the reader accepts the premise that anti-Semitism is present in any scrutiny of relations between the U.S. government and American Jews, or the Israel lobby.  Foxman says the authors’ objective is to make Israel into a “pariah” state, though nothing that they write reveals such a goal.  On the contrary, Mearsheimer and Walt recognize lobbies—all lobbies—as a legitimate part of the American political system, existing to shape or shift policy in the interest of the various causes they serve.  Foxman, backed by quotes from such dubious authorities as Dennis Ross, an ex-U.S. ambassador and a vigorous defender of official Israeli views, seeks to attribute something sinister to their motives.

    Without question, Mearsheimer and Walt have written less a work of political science than a brief for their position.  There is nothing wrong with that, as long as they maintain the standards of scholarship incumbent on their craft, which exhaustive footnotes of more than a hundred pages suggest strongly that they do.  Some of their critics, ill at ease with the charge of anti-Semitism or “subtle bigotry,” have accused them of being “unbalanced,” in omitting the sins of “the other side.”  By their nature, briefs are not balanced, but in this case the accusation seems doubly contrived.  Assuming that the Palestinians or radical Muslims are “the other side,” the critics can scarcely claim that the literature is not already overflowing with negative evaluations, readily at hand in any library or bookstore.  The objective of Mearsheimer and Walt is to break new scholarly ground, which is what academics are supposed to do.  Their findings will come as no surprise to those familiar with American political institutions, but, judging by the reverberations of the Foxman line, they have ignited panic by daring to put so much of the available material on the public record.

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Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, October 9, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment

Re #105636 by Inherit The Wind on 10/08 at 8:15 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Stormtrooper69 is spamming Truthdig with Nazi propaganda and lies.  EVERYTHING he has posted is a pure total falsehood, totally undocumentable.  Much if it is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to historical fact and documentation. 

Truthdig: You are allowing your site to become enveloped and sucked in to the White-supremacist, neo-nazi, nazi and KKK world, by allowing posters like “Stockman72”.  Barring people from brazenly posting falsehoods, forgeries and unsubstantiated slander is NOT a limit on freedom of speech.

In fact, it is the goal of these nazis to OVERWHELM your site with their posts and limit EVERYONE ELSE’S right of freedom of speech. You need to stop them—you’ve done it before.”
=====================================================
ITW,

I appreciate your research on the Benjamin Franklin smear. Thanks. 

I think it’s hard for a monitor to make a determination on these matters. Perhaps the best we can do is take matters into our own hands, identify the nazi sympathizers and quarantine them for the purpose of discussion. So far on this thread we have Stockman72 and Greg Bacon smearing away for all they are worth. We can ignore them, or make them an object lesson. The lesson for many people, especially young and politically inexperienced people, is that there is such a thing as anti-Semitism, that it is widespread and growing, and that Jewish conerns about this are entirely valid. However, this does not make criticisms of Israel and Zionism on human rights grounds any less valid, and in fact the validity of these reasons are ultimately the cause of the spread of anti-Semitism. After WWII anti-Semites were considered the scum of the earth by the entire world, but Israel and the Israel lobby has been trading on this to accomplish their political objectives, and they have thus descrated the memory of the martyrs of the Holocaust, vitiated its memory and begun to make anti-Semitism respectable again.

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By CJ, October 9, 2007 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Excellent review by Viorst, but for the following. And indeed answer to the question why AIPAC is so influential does remain something of a mystery. Viorst:

“Perhaps the answer has something to do with America’s being the most religious, the most Christian, the most church-going society in the Western world. Once upon a time, deeply held Christian faith could be taken as a measure of hostility to Jews; that certainly is the case no longer. If anything, American Christianity—led by but not exclusive to evangelicals—seems to take the biblical promise of a homeland for the Jews as a test of its beliefs and a commitment of its own. This commitment goes beyond guaranteeing Israel’s existence. It provides a body of sympathy for Israel’s hard line, and for the economic aid and weaponry that the United States dispatches to support it.”

This might be one answer, though I’m somewhat skeptical, since American Christianity isn’t really led much at all by evangelicals, albeit they are certainly the noisiest of American Christians, sounding as though they’re leaders, and no doubt influencing policy when the president is himself an evangelical. But AIPAC’s been around a long time. And there are millions of Catholics and other Protestants with no such insistent investment in continuation of a Jewish state. And as Viorst writes himself, it’s no longer the case that deeply held Christian faith can be taken as a measure of hostility to Jews, if indeed that ever was the case, say, among average Catholics, though it very likely was true among Catholic (and Protestant) hierarchy.

I think one could argue that one reason for AIPAC’s “mysterious” influence might have more to do with Americans’–not just Christian Americans’–fear of, thus hatred for, Arabs. This particular fear and loathing well and long entrenched in the American psyche. (Fisk notes in his book that no less than Steinbeck referred to Arabs as the filthiest people in the world.) Israel might be viewed by Americans (if less so by Europeans) as a kind of bastion of civilization in what is otherwise and still covertly, if not longer quite so overtly, believed a “savage” Middle East mostly populated by “murderous” Arabs.

Obviously, this fear and loathing of Arabs is racist by any name, indeed a racism that continues unacknowledged, thus largely unabated, in America. Akin to the racism shown Native Americans upon the “discovery” by Europeans of the “New” World. When they too were deemed savages, incapable of (seriously murderous) European “civilization.”

And despite ongoing anti-Semitism on the part of many, Jews who did emigrate did so ALSO as “civilized” Europeans, many emerging from what even after the savagery of WWII was still believed more civilized Europe.

Then there’s the possibility of an on-going guilt-complex stemming from refusal to allow Jews trying to escape the Holocaust to land on American shores during the war. This idea of a complex fits to some degree with Viorst’s citation of Irving Howe’s, wherein Howe wrote of manipulation of the Jewish psyche, and then: “But Howe argued that these dangers had become a vested interest for the leaders of Jewish organizations, making an open and honest debate all but impossible in American Jewish circles and in America’s political culture generally.”

Quite right Howe was, and remains, particularly regarding that last part. Anti-Arabism in the form of racism combined with what Howe wrote of regarding manipulation of Jewish psyche might constitute the real reason AIPAC continues to be so influential among American people, thus also among American Politicians who to some degree still have to concern themselves with garnering votes enough to maintain office.

Well, that and the fact that power tends to hold sway most everywhere, regardless of national, religious or ethnic identity/affiliation.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, October 9, 2007 at 11:43 am Link to this comment

Comment #105799 by Greg Bacon on 10/9
Greg, don’t worry about this fanatic zionist zealot “Heckler Howard”.
====
We were there: Returning from Palestine through Israel

02.08.2006
by Caroline and Nathan Finkelstein (Switzerland)

“A Swiss civil delegation, made up architects and archaeologists, was in Israel and Palestine from 18 June to 2 July 2006 to examine archaeological sites and buildings dating from the Ottoman Empire and to evaluate the damage created by time and the conflict. As we were interested in the events in this region, we asked to join them. We returned from Palestine, astounded by what is happening and, especially, by the lack of action of the international community against the humane catastrophe being perpetrated there, which the recent events in Lebanon and in Palestine certainly confirm.”

“We also observed the attitude of the settlers installed in the old town of Jerusalem. The settlers, who occupy the upper floors of old houses that they obtained by badgering the inhabitants of Palestinian origin, to such a point that they ended up selling their home and leaving, continue to harass the occupants of the lower floors, with the same objective, by throwing their garbage into the lower courtyards. Certain inhabitants, who do not want to leave their home, because it is their manner of resisting, string nets over the top of their courtyards so that the garbage or other objects, for example empty gas bottles, do not injure their children. A passage over the roofs of these houses was even built by a European government to make it possible for the settlers to cross the Arab neighbourhoods when going to the synagogue. A tower, manned with Israeli soldiers, was installed to ensure their safety and to prevent the Arab population from venturing there.”

“Wherever we went, be it Hebron, Ramallah or Nablus, we were very impressed by the effectiveness and the steadfastness of the inhabitants to continue to rebuild, to restore, and to renovate. The goal of the local architects and the archaeologists is to help the people by creating schools, outdoor centres, apprentice workshops and music centres. The inhabitants, especially the children, are very active in everything associated with the conservation of their heritage. Drawing contests for children are organized to allow them to use their imagination, and to express themselves through art. We observed that the conservation of their heritage is taking on an increased importance for the population who will never accept the military occupation. They have a non-violent manner of resisting; to remain, not to leave Palestine in spite of a life made of humiliations and quasi-daily dangers. To our great surprise, we did not encounter any hatred, only acknowledgement of the life that they lead, without even complaining; as if they had the habit of living like this.”

“We visited several villages around Hebron. Our bus, having Palestinian plates, and as it is forbidden for the Palestinians to take the Israeli roads, we had to make a big detour on dirt tracks, often blocked by boulders, to reach the small village of Twaneh. The settlers from the two colonies situated on the neighbouring hilltops constantly harass this small, isolated village that oozes misery with barely 300 inhabitants. They attack the children and prevent them from going to school, poison the only well in the village with dead animals and make regular violent raids to frighten the villagers. We met four young women volunteers of American and Italian peace associations who live in the village in order to protect the inhabitants, adopting the same living conditions as the villagers. They have also been victims of settler aggression. Other association members replace these volunteers every two to three months. Here again, we commend the courage and the commitment of these young people.”
——————————————————
For facts…click on link:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=804

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By cyrena, October 9, 2007 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

#105624 by Howard
•  Unbelievable this lobby, is right!  I understand they are going to repeal the income tax. Create free health care for all; and most importantly give all legal citizens a bonus of $1450. this coming February.

Howard,
I had to laugh out loud at this. (normally, your stuff is so obviously lunatic, and not the ha ha funny type either.) But, this one is SO outrageous as to actually bring a laugh to what are truly dismissal times.

So yes!! This lobby IS unbelievable, there’s no doubt about that. But unbelievable in the way one keeps hoping it’s just the most horrible nightmare that they will eventually awaken from. Except of course, we don’t, and it just gets worse.
On the serious side though, where did you come up with the income tax repeal, and the ‘gift’ of $1,450.00 for each ‘legal’ citizen, (uh…you DID mean AMERICAN citizens, right?) Did you just sort of pull that out of your pipe? Do you have any idea of how ridiculous that is? I’ll admit that the Israel lobby is certainly powerful enough to do that. They’ve proven they run the country with our tax dollars. But, to suggest that the Israel lobby would EVER part with a dime for ANY other citizen (of our United States) is totally ludicrous. And to repeal the income tax? PUHLEESE. How the hell would they be able to send all of our money to Israel? THAT”S the point! That’s where all of our tax dollars go! So, if your Klan repeals the income tax, they won’t have a way to continue ripping off the American public, which is where those tax dollars come from! American Jews (at least not those with the big bucks) certainly don’t pay US income tax!! That’s what the Israel Lobby is for!

I mean, the rest of us would do anything to have a few of our tax dollars spent on our educational system, our health care system, our infrastructure, minor details like that, which concern ALL Americans, and not just the Jewish ones. But gee, that’s just not the way it is. They just take it right out of our earnings, and send it to Israel.
So, if they stop collecting it from us, (the ones who can still work) then how is Israel gonna be able to continue pimping us? Will we just have to borrow another few trillion from China, so we can keep supporting Israel? So, I’m just curious. Where will Israel’s welfare payments come from, if the Lobby doesn’t keep collecting our tax dollars?

#105645 by Tony Wicher

•  Would you agree?
Will the coming Clinton Administration do this?

Tony, this is a great piece, and a great question. I don’t have the answer, but I’d have to guess…NO! Now, if we look back on the first Clinton, he DID try to work something out. (with maybe getting Israel to finally recognize International Law, and stop violating it). But at the end of the day, it never happened, and they continue to perpetrate massive Human Right’s violations against an ever increasing number of people.

So, it’s difficult to anticipate that a new Clinton Administration would do anything at all, especially if she’s supported by the same lobby.

#105636 by ITW
•  He’s also implicitly threatening the life and safety of EVERY Jewish American—calling for their expulsion from the US and the Constitution.
ITW, Just cool your jets. You’re going into your hysteria again, and it’s just gonna cause you another meltdown. How much of a ‘voice’ does this poster have? I mean REALLY! He “calls for”, and bingo, all Jews will be expulsed from the US and the Constitution? Gimme a break. Where would all of the Jewish Americans GO?!

Not to ISRAEL! I mean, Israel doesn’t have a Constitution, and life would be a whole lot more difficult there, than for Jews in America. (especially if Howard has his way, and there’s no more income tax from the only ones in America who pay it!! Heaven forbid you all should be BANISHED to
Israel! Right?

Not to worry. Won’t happen.

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By Howard, October 9, 2007 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

Pure baloney of the worst kind. Outright falsehood, indeed.

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By Greg Bacon, October 9, 2007 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

“I think it’s monies well-spent.  That way they can see what a great country it is.”

In the old city of Hebron, 400 fanatical settlers- protected by Israeli Defence Force soldiers- hold 30000 Palestinians to ransom. They stone and kick the inhabitants, while the Israeli army forbids Palestinians to drive- in some areas, even to walk- on the streets. I saw for myself the concrete blocks, rubbish and human excrement thrown down onto passing Palestinians by the illegal settlers occupying the flats above Arab shops. The racist graffiti is shocking:
- ‘Arabs to the gas chambers!’ - ‘Watch out Fatima, we will rape all Arabs!’ - ‘Mohammed is a pig’. Below this is a drawing of a pig reading the Quran. - ‘If you Arabs had just used a f***ing condom, then none of this would have happened!’

(If anybody finds this unbelievable, give me your email address and I shall be all too happy to send you photographic evidence.)

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m37031&hd;=&size=1&l=e

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By mark, October 9, 2007 at 7:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If the PNAC doctrine on the Mid-East is the same as Israel’s policy, than this is not a Israeli Lobby but an embedded Army.

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By Howard, October 9, 2007 at 6:59 am Link to this comment

That’s the American way…lobbies are for just that. And actually that lobby is much better than most others !!

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, October 9, 2007 at 5:50 am Link to this comment

Pro-Israel PAC Contributions to 2006 Congressional Candidates
        2005-2006  

State Office District Candidate Party Status

$$Contributions/  $$Career Total /  Committees

Alabama S Sessions, Jeff R I 2,000 $196,825 AS, B
H 2 Everett, Terry R I 6,500 22,500 AS, I
H 7 Davis, Artur D I 2,000 80,067 B
Alaska S Stevens, Ted R I 4,000 $73,200 A(D)
Arizona S Kyl, Jon* R I 84,500 $163,025
S McCain, John R I 1,000 $162,500 AS, C
Arkansas H 3 Delay, Robert R C 5,000 10,000
California S Feinstein, Dianne* D I 31,500 $146,342 A(D), I
H 5 Matsui, Doris D I 3,000 6,050
H 5 Matsui, Robert D N 1,550 10,700
H 8 Pelosi, Nancy D I 0 $63,450 I
H 12 Lantos, Tom D I 2,$$$500 112,750 IR
H 24 Gallegly, Elton R I 1,500 $45,250 I, IR
H 25 McKeon, Howard R I 2,500 4,500 AS
H 27 Sherman, Brad D I 5,500 $48,830 IR
H 28 Berman, Howard D I 3,500 $67,050 IR(NE)
H 29 Schiff, Adam D I 6,500 $35,417 IR(NE)
H 30 Waxman, Henry D I 1,000 $36,832
H 36 Harman, Jane D I 6,500 $93,771 I
California H 39 De La Torre, Hector D N 1,000 1,000
H 44 Calvert, Ken R I 2,000 2,000 AS
H 47 Sanchez, Loretta D I 5,500 $45,700 AS
H 50 Busby, Francine P. D 0 1,000 1,000
H 51 Filner, Bob D I 3,000 $85,014
Colorado H 3 Salazar, John D I 6,600 14,600
Connecticut S Lieberman, Joseph* D I $49,500 $286,258 AS
H 2 Simmons, Robert R I 1,000 $19,500 AS
H 4 Shays, Christopher R I 2,000 12,850
Delaware S Carper, Thomas* D I 14,000 30,500
S Biden, Joseph, Jr. D I 0 101,007 FR
Florida S Nelson, Bill* R I 53,$500 90,860 AS, B, FR
S Martinez, Mel R I 10,000 $43,500 FR
H 6 Stearns, Clifford R I 6,000 9,500
H 9 Bilirakis, Michael R I 10 20,116
H 17 Meek, Kendrick D I 6,500 13,500 AS
H 18 Ros-Lehtinen, Ileana R I 9,500 93,990 IR
H 19 Wexler, Robert D I 1,000 12,500 IR
H 20 Wasserman Schultz, Debbie D I 2,500 6,500
H 22 Shaw, E. Clay, Jr.  R I 21,005 72,505 W
Georgia H 2 Bishop, Sanford D. Jr. D I 500 500 A
H 5 Lewis, John D I 1,000 71,250 W
H 6 Price, Thomas R I 500 1,000
H 7 Linder, John R I 500 20,150 W
H 8 Marshall, Jim D I 5,000 7,000 AS
H 12 Barrow, John D I 8,100 16,600
Illinois S Durbin, Richard D I $1,500 329,171 A(D, FO)
H 2 Jackson, Jesse, Jr. D I 4,$500 10,500 A(FO)
H 5 Emanuel, Rahm D I 8,500 22,000 W
H 6 Roskam, Peter R O 4,000 4,000
H 8 Bean, Melissa D I 19,680 29,680
H 10 Kirk, Mark R I 66,064 119,382 A(FO)
H 11 Weller, Jerry R I 2,500 33,900 IR, W
H 14 Hastert, J. Dennis R I 16,200 97,050 House Speaker
H 15 Johnson, Timothy R I -1,000 7,000
Indiana S Lugar, Richard* R I 32,250 75,450
H 5 Burton, Dan R I 1,000 73,000 IR
H 6 Pence, Mike R I 11,000 22,250 IR(NE)
H 8 Ellsworth, Brad D C 6,000 6,000
Iowa H 3 Boswell, Leonard D I 3,100 23,675 I
Kansas H 3 Moore, Dennis D I 3,600 42,776 B
Kentucky S McConnell, Mitch R I 9,010 377,685 A(FO)
H 4 Davis, Geoffrey R I 1,000 9,500 AS
Louisiana S Vitter, David R I 2,000 33,000
H 1 Jindal, Bobby R I 2,000 8,500
H 3 Melancon, Charles D I 100 18,100
H 4 McCrery, James, III R I 2,000 39,500 W
H 6 Baker, Richard R I 1,000 36,350
H 7 Mount, Willie Landry D N -5,000 13,000
Maine S Snowe, Olympia J.* R I 2,000 $73,000 I
S Collins, Susan M. R I 1,000 $54,500 AS
H 2 Michaud, Michael D I 500 6,750
Maryland S Cardin, Benjamin L.#* D O 17,500 $43,950 W
S Steele, Michael* R O 5,000 5,000
H 5 Hoyer, Steny D I 28,500 $120,775 A
Massachusetts S Kennedy, Edward* D I 12,000 $79,120 AS
Michigan S Stabenow, Debbie* D I 55,296 $96,106 B
H 12 Levin, Sander D I 3,000 119,227 W
Minnesota S Kennedy, Mark*# R O 1,000 3,250
Mississippi S Lott, Trent* R I 13,000 $80,200 I
=====================================
FOR THE REST OF $$$$ CONTRIBUTIONS TO OUR BOUGHT & CONTROLLED ELECTED OFFICIALS…CLICK ON LINK:

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2006/0605031.html

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By Howard, October 9, 2007 at 4:40 am Link to this comment

I think it’s monies well-spent.  That way they can see what a great country it is.

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By Greg Bacon, October 9, 2007 at 4:01 am Link to this comment

Curious about the 300+ trips OUR congress people have taken to Israel lately?  Wonder what is involved in say, the American Israel Foundation—a branch of AIPAC—spending over $16,000 for ONE trip to Israel for Rep. Albio (D) NJ to Israel?

Or how about the $15,566 they spent on Rep. Mike Ross (D) AZ?  Or the over $25,000 AIF spent on Rep. Steny Hoyer (D)MD? Guess the fact that Hoyer is the Democratic Majority Leader who is responsible for seeing what bills reach the floor of the House would have no bearing on AIF spending large sums of money to influence Hoyer, now would it?
Hoyer seems to like AIF and AIF likes Hoyer, since he seems to be a regular visitor to Israel on AIF’s money.

Or the $19,504 the American Israel Foundation(AIF) spent on Rep.Shelley Berkley (D)NV?  That busy one helluva lot of…. something.

Of course, the American Israel Foundation makes it sound so innocent, by stating that OUR congress people “... participate in the American Israel Foundation’s Democratic Congressional Mission to Israel.”

Right.  No funny stuff going on here, like a “quid pro quo” that makes OUR congress people act like a pack of well trained monkeys, more than willing to shove billions and billions of OUR tax dollars to Israel, while ignoring OUR needs.  Nope, none of that here.

How about the $18,031 AIF spent on Rep. John Tanner (D) TN?

Or the $20,347 AIF lavished on Rep. Jack Kingston (R)GA?  or the $21,495 AIF doled out to Rep. K Michael Conaway (R) TX?

All the details about these trips and more can be had at the following site:

http://www.legistorm.com/trip/sponsor/American_Israel_Education_Foundation/4922.html

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By Howard, October 9, 2007 at 3:54 am Link to this comment

Israel and those who attack it are not moral equals. Israel is, like the United States, a “mixed economy,” which retains a significant respect for individual rights. Its citizens, whatever their race or religion, enjoy many freedoms, including freedom of thought and speech, and the right to own property. The purpose of Israel’s military is only self-defense: to protect its citizens from aggressors. Consequently, Israel has a moral right to exist.

Those attacking Israel, by contrast, are terrorist organizations, dictatorships and theocracies, which deliberately violate the rights of their own subjects. Even if these organizations and regimes had never initiated force against Israel, they still would have no moral right to exist.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 9, 2007 at 3:24 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Stockman72 on 10/08 at 7:39 pm
(4 comments total)

Taken from a copy of the original from the written records of CHARLES PICKNEY of South Carolina, of the PROCEEDINGS during the drafting of the United States Constitution at the CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION in 1789 re: THE STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN FRANKLIN at the CONVENTION CONCERNING JEWISH IMMIGRATION.

******************

And where are the “originals” of Charles Pinckney’s located?  Answer: Nowhere. 

Pinckney mentioned them in a letter in his later years BUT THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN FOUND!

So…if they have never been found, how is it possible to have a transcript from them on anything?  Answer: It’s not.

Conclusion: Benjamin Franklin, a man who founded an abolitionist society, and modeled the division of federal powers on the Iroquois Nation’s charter, and was the LEAST likely to be racist of any man at the Convention did NOT make this virulent anti-semitic speech.

Therefore it must be (and is) A FORGERY. And it’s cited as fact only by nazi websites.

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Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, October 8, 2007 at 9:54 pm Link to this comment

Re #105592 by Inherit The Wind on 10/08 at 3:47 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Viorst has one of the most balanced discussion I’ve seen here are Truthdig. As I said, most posters ignored Viorst’s measured discussion so they could spew their schpiel.”

“Legitimate criticism of Israel, the US, the UK, France, the PLA, Iran, etc IS appropriate.”

Thanks. 

“Painting anyone (with the exeception of Bush&Co;) as fundamentally evil is unproductive.  As Americans, we NEED to pass the word that Bush&Co;are irredeemably evil as they are trying to create a fascist dictatorship AND World War III”

Bush & Co is the primary target. If we can get a U.S. administration that really wants peace instead of one that is hellbent on war, it will adopt a different policy toward Israel. Instead of unconditional support, it will offer support that is critical and conditional on Israel’s recognition of the Palestinian human rights problem. It will support international law and human rights principles by voting against Israel in the United Nations instead of using the veto to prevent the Security Council from acting. Would you agree?
Will the coming Clinton Administration do this?

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8, 2007 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Stormtrooper69 is spamming Truthdig with Nazi propaganda and lies.  EVERYTHING he has posted is a pure total falsehood, totally undocumentable.  Much if it is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to historical fact and documentation. 

He’s also implicitly threatening the life and safety of EVERY Jewish American—calling for their expulsion from the US and the Constitution.

His “history” is straight out of “Mein Kampf” and should be recognized as that.  Notice that he DEFENDS the 3rd Reich, which was America’s MORTAL ENEMY, and that is usually considered treason.

Your statement about Benjamin Franklin’s hatred of Jews is a PROVEN CRUDE FORGERY:

“The late Charles A. Beard reported, “I cannot find a single original source that gives the slightest justification for believing that the Prophecy is anything more than a barefaced forgery. Not a word have I discovered in Franklin’s letters and papers expressing any such sentiments against the Jews as are ascribed to him by the Nazis — American and German. His well-known liberality in matters of religious opinion would, in fact, have precluded the kind of utterances put in his mouth by this palpable forgery . . . In his writings on immigration, Franklin made no mention of discrimination against Jews.”

Beard also noted that “the phraseology of the alleged Prophecy is not that of the 18th century; nor is the language that of Franklin. It contains certain words that belong to contemporary (Nazi) Germany rather than America of Franklin’s period. For example, the word ‘homeland’ was not employed by Jews in Franklin’s time. It was created in connection with the Palestine mandate.” Beard also showed “positive evidence” that Franklin held Jews in high regard, citing the instance when the Hebrew Society of Philadelphia sought to raise money for a synagogue in Philadelphia. Franklin signed the petition of appeal for contributions to “citizens of every religious denomination” and gave 5 pounds himself to the fund.”

Pinckney’s journal has NEVER been found, you lying Nazi traitor-to-America sack of shit.  The ONLY websites citing it are ALL nazi-racist sites.

Truthdig: You are allowing your site to become enveloped and sucked in to the White-supremacist, neo-nazi, nazi and KKK world, by allowing posters like “Stockman72”.  Barring people from brazenly posting falsehoods, forgeries and unsubstantiated slander is NOT a limit on freedom of speech.

In fact, it is the goal of these nazis to OVERWHELM your site with their posts and limit EVERYONE ELSE’S right of freedom of speech. You need to stop them—you’ve done it before.

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By Stockman72, October 8, 2007 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

Taken from a copy of the original from the written records of CHARLES PICKNEY of South Carolina, of the PROCEEDINGS during the drafting of the United States Constitution at the CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION in 1789 re: THE STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN FRANKLIN at the CONVENTION CONCERNING JEWISH IMMIGRATION.

“There is a great danger for the United States of America. That great danger is the Jew. Gentlemen, in which ever land the Jews have settled, they have depressed the moral level and lowered the degree of commercial honesty. They have created a State within a State, and when they are opposed, they attempt to strangle the nation financially, as in the case of Portugal and Spain.

” For more than 1700 years they have lamented their sorrowful fate, namely that they were being driven out of the motherland; but gentleman, if the civilized world today should give them back Palestine as their property, they would immediately find pressing reasons for not returning there. Why? Because they are vampires and cannot live on other vampires. They cannot live among themselves. They must live among Christians and others who do not belong to their race.

” If they are not excluded from the United States by the Constitution., within less than a hundred years they will stream into this country in such numbers that they will rule and destroy us, and change our form of government for which Americans have shed their blood and sacrificed life , property, and personal freedom. If the Jews are not excluded, within 200 years our children will be working in the fields to feed the Jews, while they remain in the Counting House rubbing their hands.

“I warn you gentlemen, if you do not exclude the Jew forever, your children and your children’s children will curse you in your grave.

“Their ideas are not those of Americans. The leopard cannot change his spots. The Jews are a dnager to this land, and if they are allowed to enter, they will imperil its institutions.

“They should be excluded from the Constitution!”

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By Stockman72, October 8, 2007 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

Those believing there is no international conspiracy going back more than one hundred years cannot explain the existence of the State of Israel without studying the conspiracies stemming from the Zionist World Congress in the 1800’s whose final fruit is Israel itself as well as the two world wars, communism, the secret Balfour Declaration under which Zionists promised Britain they would bring the United States into the First World War using their blackmail of President Wilson over his sexual liaisons at Princeton the 3-day communist takeover in Germany in 1919 under Rosa Luxembourg whose Jewish-Communist Conspiracy resulted in the abdication of the Kaiser who crossed into Denmark for safety, the collapse of the German front due to Jewish-inspired leftist armaments production strikes in Germany in the middle of the war, the later Christian genocide of 1920-1940 by the Zionists in Russia, the Jewish-inspired world blockade of Germany in 1933 (see Freedman), and the Jewish-Zionist German diplomatic assassination in Poland in 1937 which triggered Krystal Nacht and the persecution of Jews by the nearly starved Germans. Most of the adherents had little idea they were being manipulated by persons who, in the background, were orchestrating genocide against members of their own societies, and that type of hidden agenda and hidden genocide is a major point in the correct administration of worldwide conspiracies. These conspiracies are also being carried out in America and Europe today where immigration is supported in order to eliminate as many Christian Europeans as possible from the world stage. In reality, these outcomes were planned more than one hundred years ago and outlined in little read but always available Jewish, Masonic, and communist publications composed mostly by Zionist anti-Christian conspirators bent on genocidal acts and world domination by moneyed interests.

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By Stockman72, October 8, 2007 at 8:32 pm Link to this comment

The accusation of anti-Semitism in Russia became a mandatory death sentence to any Christian fighting against the Jewish oppression of Christianity in the Soviet Union, especially if these Christians even identified the names of the many thousands of Jews in control of their anti-Christian extermination policy. The Jewish-led anti-Christian genocide in Russia was basically a totally Jewish-run and definitely anti-Christian Affair using communism and anti-reactionary programs as the ideological communist “cover” for wiping out Christianity. The Jews basically ran the Russian government and hid behind its skirts as they carried out their murders across the Russian Continent. It was never reported in the United States, because the media was controlled mostly by Jewish owners who were uninterested in exposing Americans to an atrocity by Jews. Only Henry Ford, who own his own newspaper, got the word out, and he was severely criticized as being anti-Semitic for his honesty in exposing this matter of Christian genocide by the Jews. In China, more than 80 million oriental peasants were killed by the Chinese Communist Party which learned from the Russians how to run a revolution. Especially sought out for instant extermination during The Big March and beyond were those peasants who were Christians, Buddhists, or Islamics and anyone else associated with a religion or philosophy or God concept who were non-materialistic in thought. Like Russian Liberals, the Chinese communists did not want “other leaders” and “other systems” teaching their people.
eligion in China, as in Russia, was called the “opiate of the people” and, as in Russia, this was used to justify the mass murder of priests, devotees, and other adherents of non-communist religions. Today in China, Christians are still being mistreated, and many churches are inundating the west coast of the United States with Chinese Christian refugees desperate to escape the on-going anti-Christian purges. The great international conspiracies of communism, socialism, liberalism, Masonry, and Zionism were always interconnected and have created all of our world wars, cold wars, economic depressions, and divisive genocidal conduct throughout the world, mainly because their conspirators who have created these agencies of death carried an anti-Christian agenda which was hidden behind the false curtain of secular materialist intellectuality.

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By Howard, October 8, 2007 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

Unbelievable this lobby, is right!  I understand they are going to repeal the income tax. Create free health care for all; and most importantly give all legal citizens a bonus of $1450. this coming February.  Awesome power is right.
  My kind of lobby. More power to ‘em, I say !

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By Robert, October 8, 2007 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

September 24, 2007
Only Cheney Knows for Sure
Just How Powerful is the Israel Lobby?

By SHERWOOD ROSS

How large a role does the “Israeli Lobby” play in shaping U.S. policy in the Middle East?

Some answers may be contained in The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (Farrar, Straus & Giroux), by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, reviewed in the Sept. 23 New York Times, and Rulers and Ruled in The U.S. Empire by James Petras, just published by Clarity Press. Mearsheimer teaches at the University of Chicago and Walt teaches at Harvard.

According to Petras, a sociologist at Binghamton University, New York, the pro-Zionist “power configuration” is not just the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee(AIPAC). The Zionist lobby is so powerful, Petras argues, it “calls the shots” and “supports the escalation of the Iraq war and the savaging of Palestine, Somalia and Afghanistan.”

“It (the Lobby”) has neutralized the biggest and most concerted efforts by big name centrist political figures to alter White House policy,” including James Baker, (former Secretary of State under the first president Bush,) former president Carter and “protesting former military commanders” in Iraq.

Petras charges, “the White House is putting into practice the war strategy presented by the American’ Enterprise Institute, which he dubs a Zioncon thinktank. Led by “arch-Zionist” Michael Ledeen a resident scholar of AEI, “some in the Jewish Lobby dismissed the Baker Iraq Study Group as the realists and anti-Semites.’” The ISG “was unable to deal with Israeli violence against Palestinians or enter into a dialogue with Syria and Iran on any but the most narrow and unpromising terms,” Petras asserted.

Petras goes on to say the Lobby includes investment bank Goldman Sachs, which exerts a “dominant presence” in the Bush government. Among its alumni are Joshua Bolton, White House Chief of Staff; Robert Steel, former GS vice chairman who advises Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson on domestic finance; and Assistant Secretary of State Randall Fort, an adviser to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Paulson is a former chairman and CEO of GS.

What’s more, Petras writes, high Bush officials from the Lobby have played top Pentagon policymaking roles and have “longstanding and deep ties with the Israeli state.” Elliott Abrams, President Bush’s deputy national security advisor, Petras writes, is a “stern defender of Jewish purity and intimate collaborator with the Israeli high command” and “gave full support in early summer to an Israeli plan to destroy Hezbollah,” a month before last year’s controversial border incident when two Israeli soldiers were captured. David Wurmser, former Mideast adviser to Vice President Cheney is also an “Israeli Firster”, according to Petras.

“An examination of AIPAC’s agenda shows a new war against Iran on behalf of Israel at the top of its list of priorities,” Petras asserts. “For the last three years, the publications, conferences and press releases of the Conference of Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations(CPMAJO) had urged their members to go all-out to fund and back candidates (mostly Democrats) who supported Israel’s military solution’ to Iran’s nuclear enrichment program.”

CPMAJO consists of 51 national organizations, including the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee, several hundred local and regional Jewish federations, and the United Jewish Communities. Petras would doubtless include the Rabbinical Council of America.

http://www.counterpunch.org/ross09242007.html

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8, 2007 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hey, IHW, it’s good to hear from you again! Perhaps now we can talk without getting our posts deleted by some gremlin. The last time that happened I quit posting here for a month.

OK fine, so Stormtrooper69 is a Nazi. Indeed you and I agree that there are lots of them around, lots of closet Nazis, closet anti-Semites just dying to express themselves. My problem is that these people (whether Nazis or Zionist trolls) are preventing us from having a rational discussion about Israel and U.S. foreign policy so that there can be peace and frienship between the United States and all countries of the Middle East. Stormtrooper69 is static. I am only interested in talking to well-intentioned and serious people.

Where ya been?

Viorst has one of the most balanced discussion I’ve seen here are Truthdig. As I said, most posters ignored Viorst’s measured discussion so they could spew their schpiel.

Legitimate criticism of Israel, the US, the UK, France, the PLA, Iran, etc IS appropriate.

Painting anyone (with the exeception of Bush&Co;) as fundamentally evil is unproductive.  As Americans, we NEED to pass the word that Bush&Co;are irredeemably evil as they are trying to create a fascist dictatorship AND World War III.

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By Tony Wicher, October 8, 2007 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

Re #105467 by Inherit The Wind on 10/08 at 3:06 am

“No, Tony, you are simply letting your paranoia go out of control.  All the attacks on ALL Jews that are showing up here have simply given freedom to the Nazis to “express” themselves.”

Hey, IHW, it’s good to hear from you again! Perhaps now we can talk without getting our posts deleted by some gremlin. The last time that happened I quit posting here for a month.

OK fine, so Stormtrooper69 is a Nazi. Indeed you and I agree that there are lots of them around, lots of closet Nazis, closet anti-Semites just dying to express themselves. My problem is that these people (whether Nazis or Zionist trolls) are preventing us from having a rational discussion about Israel and U.S. foreign policy so that there can be peace and frienship between the United States and all countries of the Middle East. Stormtrooper69 is static. I am only interested in talking to well-intentioned and serious people.

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By Howard, October 8, 2007 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment

Right on, Ihherit the WIND !!!

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8, 2007 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

” Like sending some agents to a country that Israel wanted to fight its land and water resource wars to engage in an act of sabotage to rally that country’s citizens into fighting Israel’s wars?

Say, an act of sabotage so savage and brutal, that the entire nation would be numb and ready to strike out at any MSM generated target?

Oh, i don’t know,,, maybe crashing some airliners into some skyscrapers.. in the world’s media capital, thereby guaranteeing that the people of that country would be able to see in real time that horrific incident?

Gosh, wonder what country could be so barbaric, cold-blooded and murderous to perform such a monstrous act?

Hmmmmm…..???? “

********************

Yeah, just make this shit up, use the Jews as the scapegoat once again, then go back to the millennia-old hobby and game of seeing how many ways you can murder Jews.  Also, it has the GREAT added benefit that if you are corrupt and dirty, you can blame the Jews for your own crimes—and get away with them. 

In the dark ages, Jews were “OBVIOUSLY” behind the Black Plague because so many more of them (relatively) survived—they HAD to have caused it, hadn’t they? So murdering them was perfectly justified.

But it wasn’t the Jews, it was the fleas on the rats the Crusaders brought back to Europe—and as they had killed all the rat-controlling cats as “witches’ familiars”, the rat population (and the fleas) EXPLODED.  Plus the Jews followed hygiene practices while the Christians NEVER bathed. THAT’s why The Plague happened and the Jews survived—they washed the fleas off!

You feel so self-righteous, don’t you? So did Hitler and his minions when they were perpetrating the greatest crime in history.  You are no different. Just another nazi POS like so many around here.

Mossad is no different than any other secret service in ANY nation.

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By Greg Bacon, October 8, 2007 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

Workings of Israel’s secret service exposed

From London Times, 2 August, 1996

THE operational structure of Mossad, Israel’s secret intelligence service, which has always prided itself on weaving a cloak of impenetrable secrecy around its covert operations, has been disclosed by a British specialist journal.

According to the journal, Mossad’s largest operational branch is the Collections Department, responsible for intelligence-gathering operations abroad. The Collections Department is split into sections and includes separate “desks” covering different regions. Branch A is said to cover Spain, Egypt, Cyprus and Algeria. Branch C is reported to cover the Mossad stations in London, Paris and Marseilles.

The journal also says that Mossad has a clandestine operations command, known within the Israeli secret service as Metsada, which runs “small units of combatants who carry out actions abroad against those considered to be a threat to Israeli security”. The journal says: “These missions have included assassinations and sabotage.”

Other Mossad branches are listed as the Political Action and Liaison Department which deals with friendly foreign intelligence services, including the American CIA and Britain’s MI6, and a special section called LAP (Lohamah Psichlogit) which covers psychological warfare.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51b/005.html

“These missions have included assassinations and sabotage.”

Like sending some agents to a country that Israel wanted to fight its land and water resource wars to engage in an act of sabotage to rally that country’s citizens into fighting Israel’s wars?

Say, an act of sabotage so savage and brutal, that the entire nation would be numb and ready to strike out at any MSM generated target?

Oh, i don’t know,,, maybe crashing some airliners into some skyscrapers.. in the world’s media capital, thereby guaranteeing that the people of that country would be able to see in real time that horrific incident?

Gosh, wonder what country could be so barbaric, cold-blooded and murderous to perform such a monstrous act?

Hmmmmm…..????

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By Robert, October 8, 2007 at 9:54 am Link to this comment

Dissenting at your own risk
By CECILIE SURASKY
Special to the Star-Telegram

“Last year, I agreed to speak to a Jewish youth group about my organization, Jewish Voice for Peace, and our opposition to Israel’s occupation. My talk was to follow one from a member of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which calls itself “America’s pro-Israel Lobby.”

A week before, a shaken program leader said the AIPAC staffer had threatened to get the entire youth program’s funding canceled if I was allowed in the door. The threat worked, and in disgust, they canceled the whole talk.

Pundits will surely argue for years about professors Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer’s explosive new book, The Israel Lobby, which blames poor U.S. policy in the Middle East on a loose network of individuals and pro-Israel advocacy groups.

But the book, and the response to it, opens up another controversy: the stifling of debate about unconditional U.S. support for Israeli policies.

Why is Israel’s increasingly brutal 40-year occupation of Palestinian land regularly debated in the mainstream media abroad, including in Israel, but not here? And why is there an almost total lack of discussion among presidential candidates about the dollars that subsidize this occupation and the American diplomatic support that makes it possible?

In a society built on the free exchange of ideas, as Walt and Mearsheimer point out, one answer can be found by looking at the many self-appointed gatekeepers, such as Abraham Foxman and the Anti-Defamation League, or Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who use their Jewish identity as both a shield and cudgel. They work diligently to silence those who question ill-conceived policies of the Israeli and U.S. governments.

Non-Jewish critics, even former President Carter, are denounced as anti-Semites. Special ire is reserved for Jewish dissenters, who are branded as “self-hating” or “marginal,” while Muslim and Arab-Americans are easily smeared and even criminalized with charges of supporting terrorism.

Stunned by the stifling of dissent, we decided to start a Web site, Muzzlewatch, to track the incidents. Just as we launched, Stanford Middle East Studies Professor Joel Beinin was disinvited from a speaking engagement at a high school with just 24 hours’ notice.

After an unprecedented campaign of outside interference waged by Dershowitz, Professor Norman Finkelstein was refused tenure by DePaul University because of his criticism of U.S.-Israeli policy. Palestinian-American anthropologist Nadia Abu El-Haj is fighting a political campaign to deny her tenure at Barnard.

Even Walt and Mearsheimer, who are getting plenty of exposure, couldn’t have asked for better proof of their point that the lobby works to stifle dissent when an embarrassed head of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs told them that their scheduled speech was canceled. (They did speak before the World Affairs Council of Dallas/Fort Worth on Sept. 17.) This was apparently because Foxman was not available that day to “balance” their talk.

(They had initially been booked by themselves. The talk was not rescheduled.)

Many groups that started with the important work of fighting real anti-Semitism now rely on anti-Semitism to insist that to show one’s love of Jews, one must offer uncritical support to Israel. They are especially displeased by Jews who believe that enabling Israeli violations of Palestinian human rights is not good for anyone.

Unless this atmosphere of intimidation is confronted, Americans will continue to lack access to information and perspectives necessary to formulate effective Middle East policies, virtually ensuring that Israel and the United States will be at war for many years to come.”

‘The Israel Lobby’

http://podcast.dfwworld.org/2007_09-17_The_Israel_Lobby.MP3

(Cecilie Surasky is communications director for the Oakland-based Jewish Voice for Peace.)

http://www.star-telegram.com/245/story/255318.html

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By Robert, October 8, 2007 at 7:11 am Link to this comment

Weekend Edition
October 6 / 7, 2007

New Revalations About the Attack on the USS Liberty

So Who’s Afraid of the Israel Lobby?

By RAY McGOVERN

“Virtually everyone: Republican, Democrat-Conservative, Liberal. The fear factor is non-partisan, you might say, and palpable. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) brags that it is the most influential foreign policy lobbying organization on Capitol Hill, and has demonstrated that time and again-and not only on Capitol Hill.

Seldom has the Lobby’s power been as clearly demonstrated as in its ability to suppress the awful truth that on June 8, 1967, during the Six Day War:

o Israel deliberately attacked the intelligence collection ship USS Liberty, in full awareness it was a U.S. Navy ship, and did its best to sink it and leave no survivors;

o The Israelis would have succeeded had they not broken off the attack upon learning, from an intercepted message, that the commander of the U.S. 6th Fleet had launched carrier fighters to the scene; and

o By that time 34 of the Liberty’s crew had been killed and over 170 wounded.

Scores of intelligence analysts and senior officials have known this for years. That virtually all of them have kept a forty-year frightened silence is testament to the widespread fear of touching this live wire. Even more telling is the fact that the National Security Agency apparently has destroyed voice tapes and transcripts heard and seen by many intelligence analysts, material that shows beyond doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing.


The Ugly Truth

But the truth will out-eventually. All it took in this case was for a courageous journalist (of the endangered species kind) to listen to the surviving crew and do a little basic research, not shrinking from naming war crimes and not letting senior U.S. officials, from the president on down, off the hook for suppressing-even destroying-damning evidence from intercepted Israeli communications.

The mainstream media have now published an exposé based largely on interviews with those most intimately involved. A lengthy article by Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter John Crewdson appeared in the Chicago Tribune and Baltimore Sun on Oct. 2 titled “New revelations in attack on American spy ship.” the subtitle goes the prize for understatement of the year: “Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn’t tell full story of deadly 1967 incident.”

Better 40 years late than never, I suppose. Many of us have known of the incident and cover-up for a very long time and have tried to expose and discuss it for the lessons it holds for today. It has proved far easier, though, to get a very pedestrian Dog-Bites-Man article published than an article with the importance and explosiveness of this sensitive story.”


Click on the link/URL for the rest of the facts:

http://www.counterpunch.org/mcgovern10062007.html

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By omop, October 8, 2007 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

EUREKA….

check out #105374.

According to the BBC Mr. Ramon a spokesperson for the Israeli PM stated that Israel is willing for a part of Jerusalem to become the Palestenian’s capital.

The iceberg is beginning to crack which must be excellent news for all those killing and being killed.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8, 2007 at 4:12 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony Wicher on 10/07 at 8:09 pm
(255 comments total)

Re #105439 by Tony Wicher on 10/07 at 7:24 pm

I have this idea that you, “Stockman” and the aptly named “FlackCatcher” are working together. “Stockman” and “FlackCatcher” put up the Nazi straw men, and you knock them down. AIPAC alert always sends them out in groups of three, wherever honest discussion is breaking out, I have noticed. Am I right?

*****************

No, Tony, you are simply letting your paranoia go out of control.  All the attacks on ALL Jews that are showing up here have simply given freedom to the Nazis to “express” themselves.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8, 2007 at 4:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Stormtrooper69

History tells it all:
In the Soviet Union, the communist party, run mostly for the benefit of its Jewish founders who made up approximately 90% of the founding fathers and administrators of the Soviet Union, hid behind their leftist doctrine which had been designed to undermine Christianity in the name of materialism and social science.

Go back to your nazi shit hole and stop making this shit up!  NONE of it is factual, but only a hard-core anti-semite bigoted fascist would spew such stuff.

Fact: Stalin was nearly as rabid an anti-semitic bastard as Hitler was.  Stalin HATED Jews with a passion and killed them too-but he was more concerned with wiping out the Muzhik class of well-to-do peasants to creat collective farms.  Stalin also made damn sure to rid his regime of all Jews—and for Old Joe, “ridding” meant a bullet in the back of the head.  But for his arch-enemy, Trotsky (who was a Jew), exile wasn’t good enough. He had his agent bury an ice-axe in Trotsky’s head in Mexico City in 1940.

You are such a bigoted lying sack of shit I’m amazed anyone but another nazi will come near you.

We FOUGHT and CRUSHED you bastards in WWII, but now you are raising your treasonous heads again.

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By Howard, October 8, 2007 at 3:31 am Link to this comment

RE #105324 by Lee on 10/07 at 7:09 am
(Unregistered commenter)

It’s amazing how history continues to repeat itself. The Jews are once again being used as the ultimate scapegoat. If you recall, the lands that Israel occupied are a result of Israel being attacked by surrounding countries who were intent on totally destroying Israel! And, today, whether it’s Iran, or other anti semites, they once again try to tell everyone that the jews are responsible for all the world’s problems. Regarding the Palestinians ... they can’t even get along with each other. Their sacred cow leader, Yassar Arafat ripped off his own people, allowing them to live in poverty, while he hoarded millions that were meant for the Palestinians. And, when the Palestinians have had a chance to self govern, have peace, have stability, have economic opportunity ... they had only themselves to blame for once again messing it up! Furthermore, I’m so sick of these idiots who think the west can reason with a Muslim world that believes in, and is boldly pursueing the Islamic caliphate. How foolish, naive, and stupid!

===================================================
RIGHT ON LEE;  YOU HAVE EXPLAINED IT WELL !!

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By TAO Walker, October 8, 2007 at 2:30 am Link to this comment

It might help improve Verne Arnold’s rather bleak outlook some (#105457) to know that us Two-leggeds don’t carry near the onerous burden of responsibility for keeping “time” going that he apparently believes we do….no doubt sincerely.  As Human Beings, our biology is our destiny, and nothing we might wish or assume to-the-contrary is going to change that.  On the upside, “time” is of no import to us in the fulfillment of our given organic function in the Living Arrangement here.  We’re certainly not “bound” by it….which is the whole “secret” of Indian time.

“Civilized individuals” especially, however, are almost helpless to alter significantly even their day-to-day circumstances (their personal fate, in the Confucian world-view)....captive as they are to a system of “global” exploitation which has as its ultimate objective the rape, ruin, and murder of our Mother Earth, and all Her natural Children.  From inside that contraption Verne Arnold’s apprehension of the Great Hoop of LifeHerownself, where us free wild natural Human Beings live, is almost completely blocked-off by all the various institutional, structural, and psycho-emotional features of that system designed and put-in-place and expensively maintained for just that obscuring purpose.  So he sure comes by his pessimism honestly enough.

For all that, though, it isn’t really warranted.  Our actual situation isn’t anywhere near as circumscribed and confining as it appears to our domesticated Sisters and Brothers.  The full range of our abilities, the whole scope of our area of effective responsibility, is potentially as expansive as the eternal infinitude of the Universe of Universes itself.

Wherever Life is, and She is everywhere and all there is, WE can be….in fact, we already are, as sharers in Her boundless generosity.  So our prospects are actually pretty good, all things considered.

Verne Arnold has maybe mistaken the admittedly awful conditions of what is in-effect a now nearly world-wide concentration camp for “all there is.”  Feeling cut-off, perhaps, from the Great Hoop that includes also All Our Relations here, as well as all of the Star Nations everywhere, he has apparently come to the conclusion that he and his fella and gal inmates are all alone in the Universe.  That must be terribly depressing….the more so for being at-odds with the bright and beautiful actuality beyond the mostly make-believe barriers keeping them all shut-in.

Verne Arnold is right, though, when he says the Earth Herself will abide.  He might be pleasantly surprised when he comes ‘round to discovering again that Her Two-legged Children, ALL free and wild once more, will go on living with Her.

HokaHey!

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By Verne Arnold, October 8, 2007 at 12:23 am Link to this comment

#105340 by TAO Walker on 10/07 at 8:33 am
(131 comments total)

Verne Arnold (#105317) might as well just come right out and say it.  With all the grim present “givens,” there is no “FUTURE.”

HokaHey!

As long as us humans are around there is a future, we humans create the future and the past.  Without us there is only a continuum.  “Given” we are here, there will be ongoing war and the subsequent destruction of everything.  The earth will survive us, in spite of us.  Methinks there will be no more peace in my lifetime…pity.

Peace

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By Stockman72, October 7, 2007 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment

A predictable response, although a week one! You lot are always on about the Holocaust, yet the world hears little about what went on in Russia. 

History tells it all:
In the Soviet Union, the communist party, run mostly for the benefit of its Jewish founders who made up approximately 90% of the founding fathers and administrators of the Soviet Union, hid behind their leftist doctrine which had been designed to undermine Christianity in the name of materialism and social science. These administrators of the Soviet Union who were detailed in reports to the U.S. State Department from Russia in 1919 were instrumental in instructing their cohorts to send out Jewish commissars like Kaganovitch and Beria to kill approximately 100 million White European Christians whom they called “reactionary bourgeoisie” for correctness in 1920-1940. What they meant by “bourgeoisie” were Russia’s Christians. In addition to killing the Christian peasants under the materialist aegis of communism, the churches and parochial schools were confiscated or burned as were their Christian towns; the priests were either murdered or sent to prisons, and all vestiges of Christianity were as nearly as possible expunged. Once the Christians in an entire area were killed, the Jews brought in new non-Christians, atheists, who were relocated there to re-establish the economic exploitation of the emptied lands in agricultural communes similar to the kibbutzim programs in Israel which were begun at the same time. At this point in history, the Jews and Zionists in power declared anti-Semitism to be a capital crime, because the Christians who were being killed by these communist Jews in Russia had developed groups to protect themselves and were critical of the Jewish excesses in the matter of their own genocide with whom they naturally refused to cooperate without fighting for their very lives.

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By TMoodie, October 7, 2007 at 9:36 pm Link to this comment
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I see the usual cast of characters has turned up in these comments.

Indignant Israel critics parade academic, deaf-ear arguments, while rabid Jewish supremacists sneer and gloat between hollow accusations of anti semitism.

Meanwhile, evangelical legions cheerlead the whole danse macabre in the fervent hope they will be the lucky ones who get to see the end times (and maybe get some cell phone pics of the inferno while they’re gettin’ themselves raptured up).

The shabby grotesque unfolds like an orphaned plot from some forgotten hollywood pitch meeting. Except that the way things are going, it looks like a whole lot of Arabs and Persian folks are gonna die.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/profile.html

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By Tony Wicher, October 7, 2007 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

Re #105439 by Tony Wicher on 10/07 at 7:24 pm

I have this idea that you, “Stockman” and the aptly named “FlackCatcher” are working together. “Stockman” and “FlackCatcher” put up the Nazi straw men, and you knock them down. AIPAC alert always sends them out in groups of three, wherever honest discussion is breaking out, I have noticed. Am I right?

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By Tony Wicher, October 7, 2007 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

Re #105438 by Howard on 10/07 at 7:22 pm

Hey Howard - If Stockman is serious, I’m on your side, man.

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By Howard, October 7, 2007 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

Of course.  And those dreaded Israelis and Jews are responsible for Katrina, Aids, WWI, Korean War, Kennedy’s assasination, Lincoln’s assasination, the common cold. And most important, making the sun come up in the East.  Imagine.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 7, 2007 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment
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Did all the neo-nazi websites recruit trolls to invade Truthdig and spew their propaganda that the Holocaust never happened?  The place is LOUSY with them!

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By Inherit The Wind, October 7, 2007 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment
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Stockman72 on 10/07 at 3:06 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

How about these charming little gems from the mouths of “God’s chosen people.”

“Our race is the Master Race….”
— Israeli Prime Minister Menechem Begin

Begin was a radical Likudist—despised by all but the religious orthodox. Is the quote from his time as PM, or back when he was in Irgun? (left that bit out, didn’t you?)

The body of a Jewish person,” Schneerson bragged, “....”
—Rabbi Mendel Schneerson

He was the leader of a religious cult, like David Koresh (Oh, I forgot—that sadistic fascist traitor is one of your types’ heros.)

“One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.”
~ Rabbi Ya’acov Perin in his eulogy at the funeral of Dr. Baruch Goldstein

Now you cite a guy who’s so warped he saw fit to praise a mass-murderer and YOU claim he’s representative of all Jews.  Shall we say David Duke is representative of all Christians?

“Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian ones.”
Ehud Olmert 2006-06-23

How out of context is this?  Don’t most Americans think that the 3,500 American service men and women who died in Iraq are more important than the 650,000 Iraqis who died who wouldn’t have if we hadn’t started this illegal war?

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, Statement to The Sunday Times, 1969-06-15

I’ll bet THIS changed in translation. It’s also true. There’s no such thing as a Palestinian people anymore than there is a people called “Hoosiers” or “Buckeyes” or “Tarheels”.  It’s a phony made up name for Arabs living in the West Bank.

How can we return the occupied territories?

In other words, there was no nation to return them to.  Quite accurate.


[/]Another main point main people bring up is that the WWII and the Holocaust have been made to look in the Western Society as though it was “only the Jewish people” who suffered, .......

Pure horse manure—Nobody denies that the slaughter extended far beyond Jews—but only the Gypsies suffered the attempt at total destruction that the Jews suffered.  3 Million Jews? You pulled THAT number out of your ass!


And KNOW THIS:

The Israeli former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in Oct. 3, 2001 said to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio, “Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that…I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

And know this—Sharon warned Bush not to invade Iraq, that was a TERRIBLE mistake and would be very costly ...which, of course, blows the anti-semites here out of the water everytime they say that Israel demanded the attack on Iraq. (And I’ve yet to see a LEGITIMATE source of Sharon’s statement on control,—I think it’s all invented—like other outrageous lies about Jews—the true stuff about Sharon is bad enough)

And they wonder why the whole world despises them

Nope. There’s always neo-nazis like you to cherry-pick crap or deliberately mis-interpret it and use it to blame Jews. It’s been going on for 2 thousand years.

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By Tony Wicher, October 7, 2007 at 8:16 pm Link to this comment

Re #105397 by Stockman72 on 10/07 at 3:06 pm
“And they wonder why the whole world despises them!”
====================================================
Hey, Stockman, this is amazing! An honest, out-and-out anti-Semite, right here on Truthdig, spewing his hate! But I suspect that you are really a Zionist troll and provocateur, trying to do anything you can to drag a red herring across this free and open dialogue between serious people seeking peace in the Middle East. Nice try, but we’re on to you. Unless you really are a Nazi, in which case I am sure there is an Aryan Brotherhood blog somewhere for you.

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By Tony Wicher, October 7, 2007 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment

#105375 by Flakcatcher on 10/07 at 12:42 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Tony W.

But because you disagree does not make what I say any the less true.  I trust I don’t have to repeat myself.

Regards anyway”
==================================================
You probably will have to make yourself clear, since I don’t really get what you are saying. A smear is a smear, whether it is against Jews or critics of Israel or anyone else. Goebles, McCarthy, Dershowitz - these are the masters of the smear. I can’t understand wearing the label of a hateful bigot as a “garland”. But maybe you are trying to say that it’s OK to be anti-Semitic. It’s OK to be a Nazi. If that’s the way it is, if you are a closet Nazi who wants to come out, I will perform public psychotherapy on you.

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By Stockman72, October 7, 2007 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

How about these charming little gems from the mouths of “God’s chosen people.”

“Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.”
— Israeli Prime Minister Menechem Begin

The body of a Jewish person,” Schneerson bragged, “is of a totally different quality from the body of members of all other nations of the world. Bodies of the Gentiles are in vain. An even greater difference is in regard to the soul…A non-Jewish soul comes from three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness.”
—Rabbi Mendel Schneerson


“One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.”
~ Rabbi Ya’acov Perin in his eulogy at the funeral of Dr. Baruch Goldstein (Cited in the New York Times, 1994-02-28)

“Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian ones.”
Ehud Olmert 2006-06-23

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, Statement to The Sunday Times, 1969-06-15

How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.”
Golda Meir (quoted in Chapter 13 of The Zionist Connection II: What Price Peace by Alfred Lilienthal )
Another main point main people bring up is that the WWII and the Holocaust have been made to look in the Western Society as though it was “only the Jewish people” who suffered, and it was mostly only Jewish people who were being killed in concentration camps, and the West barely hears about the suffering of the other cultures. Approximently 37 millions civilians were killed (source), in WWII, only 3 million were jewish, and many feel that the Jewish deaths were over played directly after the War to create the State of Israel, and since the creation of the Jewish State, it has been nonestop violence, hatred and death, on both sides of the table (jewish/arab)

And KNOW THIS:

The Israeli former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in Oct. 3, 2001 said to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio, “Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that…I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

And they wonder why the whole world despises them!

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By Flakcatcher, October 7, 2007 at 1:49 pm Link to this comment
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Besides, Tony W.

‘Antisemitic’ is the term that these international folk apply to me when I express anti-hyena sentiments.  If you disagree with the terminology, take it up with them, not with me.  They are the ones who are ‘anti.semitic-ing’ so many folks that they don’t like - for whatever reason they don’t like them, and they have an inordinate capacity for hate, don’t they just.

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By Flakcatcher, October 7, 2007 at 1:42 pm Link to this comment
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Tony W.

But because you disagree does not make what I say any the less true.  I trust I don’t have to repeat myself.

Regards anyway

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By omop, October 7, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment

The proof and finality of whose on second, what"s on first etc,.etc. is to do the right, rational and logical thing whose end result is to stop the deaths of men, women and children.

Israeiis MUST give up their FANTASIES of the likes of Netanyahu, Podhoretz , and supporters of the socalled CLEAN BREAK. State un-equivocally that they will conform to UN Resolution 242, help the Palestenians in economic development and treat them as equals and with respect so that in return they too are treated likewise.

Get the hell out of the West Bank, Gaza and divide Jerusalem into the 3 religions districts that conisder it Holy and lets get on with living and let live.

Americans of all perusasion must start to treat all the nations in the Middle East equally and fairly in order to recoup some of the respect that has been lost due either to Israeli pressure or other pressures.

If no steps are taken to bring this outcome about then it will not only be ‘the same old same old” its bound to get worse. More so if the US or Israel and or both undertake to attack, invade or in any way harrass the Iranians.

Israel’s official position as well as the Zionists labelled Americans to deny Iran a nuclear capability are playing a dangerous game. Anyone in that part of the world who would use any nuclear missiles or other device is just like a kid playing with matches.

Bombast on all sides must be replaced with respect and dedicated effort to do justice to all concerned. Lets get the relationship the US had with all of the Middle East back to its proper position. Americans must think of America first and foremost and act accordingly.

If one side or the other received preferential treatment then one cannot complain or ask nonsensical questions like ” why do they hate us?”.

Its either continue down the same hateful road or start going down another more hopeful, humane and realistic one.

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By Tony Wicher, October 7, 2007 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

#105290 by Flakcatcher on 10/06 at 11:33 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“don’t call me anti-Semitic, because that is a mortal insult”

So you say . . .

Frankly, I’m against deliberately blunting kids’ minds, against interfering in other’s countries for my or other’s benefit, or impoverishing folks to extinction by financial manipulation, against corrupting people and pretending I’m good, against raping the planet of its benefits and intending the elimination of all those who will not be my slaves and pretending I’m chosen by God for it, I’m against hypocrisy, deceit and lying and a whole heap of other disgusting stuff, and it’s a surprise how often I’m called ‘antisemitic’ for it.

Well, I don’t call myself that, but if some want to call me ‘antisemitic’ for being anti-hyena then perhaps they know something that I don’t, I’ll go along with it, and I’ll wear that badge with quiet pride.

‘anti-semitic’ isn’t necessarily any insult or shame. In the circumstances, it’s a garland.

——————————————————————————
Flak,

I cannot agree with this. Words ought to mean something and be used properly. We know what ‘anti-Semitic” means. It means having a negative image about Jews as such. There is such a thing as anti-Semitism. It has been around for thousands of years. It orginates with Christianity and the idea that “the Jews killed Jesus”. This has justified all the pogroms through the millenia, culminating in the Holocaust. It is widespread, but at the end of World War II when the full extent of the Holocaust was realized, anti-Semitism was deeply discredited throughout the world. Unfortunately it almost immediately began to spread through the Arab world,  which historically was not anti-Semitic in the Western Christian sense (after all, Arabs are Semites too). The reason for this, unfortunately, is Israel and the Zionist project. What the Palestinians call the Nakba or Catastrophe, the mass expulsion of Arabs from their homes, took place in 1947-48, only two years after the opening of the concentration camps. This rise in anti-Semitism now caused by the undemocratic and colonial nature of Zionism has steadily eroded the progress against anti-Semitism which it could be said is the only positive result of the Holocaust.

Zionism is causing world-wide anti-Semitism, and that is the ultimate argument against it. World Jewry is realizing this more every day.

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By TAO Walker, October 7, 2007 at 9:33 am Link to this comment

Verne Arnold (#105317) might as well just come right out and say it.  With all the grim present “givens,” there is no “FUTURE.” 

HokaHey!

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By Inherit The Wind, October 7, 2007 at 8:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Didn’t anybody posting here other than Sepharad actually READ Milton Viorst’s article???

It’s actually a very fair-minded piece.  Viorst CLEARLY shows that the reasons for the Iraq war had little to do with Israel (even Ariel Sharon told Bush privately it was a terrible idea—but publicly had to support Bush’s fascist caper).

Viorst also FINALLY makes clear the difference between ultra-Orthodox jingoistic Zionism, which deserves the criticism it gets, and old-fashioned liberal Zionism that wants a peaceful, liberal, Democratic Israel—and that MOST American Jews favor the latter, not the former.

I know very well who Jim Moran is—he used to be mayor of Alexandria, VA when we lived there, and he’s generally been a pretty good Congressman. But he’s also a former New Yorker and should know better than to label AIPAC’s supporters as “Rich Jews”.  No matter how you say it, it comes out bad—even though clearly Moran meant to differ between a small, wealthy minority and the vast majority of American Jews who are either working class or middle class.

(Yes, working class Jews exist—I was a carpenter for years and one brother was an auto mechanic while the other was an electrician—and our dad was a machinist—and that’s just my own family).

But the usual agenda-isti come out of the woodwork and from under the rocks, spouting the usual propaganda (mostly anti-Israel) and never ever deigning to note or discuss Viorst’s points.

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By Lee, October 7, 2007 at 8:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It’s amazing how history continues to repeat itself. The Jews are once again being used as the ultimate scapegoat. If you recall, the lands that Israel occupied are a result of Israel being attacked by surrounding countries who were intent on totally destroying Israel! And, today, whether it’s Iran, or other anti semites, they once again try to tell everyone that the jews are responsible for all the world’s problems. Regarding the Palestinians ... they can’t even get along with each other. Their sacred cow leader, Yassar Arafat ripped off his own people, allowing them to live in poverty, while he hoarded millions that were meant for the Palestinians. And, when the Palestinians have had a chance to self govern, have peace, have stability, have economic opportunity ... they had only themselves to blame for once again messing it up! Furthermore, I’m so sick of these idiots who think the west can reason with a Muslim world that believes in, and is boldly pursueing the Islamic caliphate. How foolish, naive, and stupid!

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By SEQUOIABIS, October 7, 2007 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

It is clear and simple; Israel is just a lousy neighbor.

I do not think that the overwhelming majority of the UN members would be criticizing Israel if when they were given permission to settle in Palestine they turned out to be good friendly cooperative neighbors.

But instead the bigoted theological state became the neighbor from hell.

Personally I would rather have the maniacal Charles Manson as a neighbor than an Israel led by blood thirsty people like Sharon or Neteyahu, at least I would have an honest neighbor who admits he enjoys killing people, unlike the soft spoken Israeli diplomats who continually try to justify land theft and the killing of innocent civilians.

It pains me that my tax dollars are supplementing this rogue nation of Imperialistic, dangerous, fanatical relious buffoons.

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By Verne Arnold, October 7, 2007 at 6:52 am Link to this comment

WATER!  This is what Israel wants.  Oil is secondary…eye on the prize…water rules the future…every where, not just in Israel, the worlds future is water…the bloody future is water! Everywhere!

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By Howard, October 7, 2007 at 5:46 am Link to this comment

Ah, yes, those 4 guys are HEROES. Nothing but. Applause please;  great Prime Ministers, as well !

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By Robert, October 7, 2007 at 4:54 am Link to this comment

ISRAELI JEWISH TERRORISTS WANTED BY THE BRITISH

THE PALESTINE POLICE FORCE
___________________________

WANTED!

TAKE A LOOK AT THESE PHOTOS AND SEE IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY TWO WELL KNOWN ISRAELI JEWISH TERRORISTS:

MENACHEM BEGIN AND YITZHAK SHAMIR.

ISRAEL HAD 4 PRIME- MINISTERS WHO WERE HARD CORE TERRORISTS. THEY BELONGED TO THE IRGUN, STERN GANG AND THE HAGANA.

1) BEN-GURION
2) MENACHEM BEGIN
3) YITZHAK SHAMIR
4) ARIEL SHARON

THESE BRUTAL ZIONIST TERRORISTS HAVE KILLED MANY INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN. THEY WERE INVOLVED IN BLOODY MASSACRES OF MANY PALESTINIAN VILLAGES, TOWNS AND REFUGEE CAMPS.

THEY CERTAINLY HAD NO PROBLEMS IN VISITING THE WHITE HOUSE, CONGRESS, US SENATE AND RECEIVING A 21 GUN SALUTE.

WHAT A SAD AND REPULSIVE SITUATION.

Here is the link/URL. Take a good look at who brought “Zionist/Jewish Terrorism” to Palestine:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/images/IsraeliJewishTerroristsWanted.html

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By Howard, October 7, 2007 at 4:10 am Link to this comment

In 1947 the Palestinians rejected, yes, rejected the U.N.‘s offer of a state larger than the one they are demandig now.  Instead, they joined in a war aimed at wiping Israel from the map. Today, that hostility has only hardened. For example, in a televised public sermon, a Palestinian Immam declared: “God willing, this unjust state of Israel will be erased.” Palestiniian textbooks are filled with vile,anti-Jewish propaganda, such as this exhortation from a fifth-grade Arabic language text:  “the Jihad against the Jew is religious duty of every Muslim man and woman.”

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By Stockman72, October 7, 2007 at 12:40 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Not meaning to highjack this thread which I find intriguing, but I think the following should be a warning to all of us!

This a list of the arms Congress just approved for sale and delivery to Israel;

10,000 JDAM tail kits for high precision guidance of bombs in all weathers at ranges of up to 25 km, which are designed for use with the GBU-29-32 BUNKER BUSTERS; 4,000 laser-guided Paveway II munitions kits; more than 11,000 Mk-84 and Mk-82 bombs; 2,000 heavy fortifications-penetrating BLU-109 bombs; and 50 GBU-28 5,000-pound guided BUNKER BUSTERS.

Now you tell me - what are they gonna do with all them BUNKER BUSTERS?

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By Janie, October 7, 2007 at 12:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“why did Lyndon Johnson of all people kowtow to these characters in Tel Aviv?!?!”

Blackmail. Same as how they keep the US congressmen in line. Since 1996, an Israeli-owned firm handles the federal phone system after the original AT&T;went belly-up.

Read Victor Ostrovsky’s books about the Mossad.

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By Flakcatcher, October 7, 2007 at 12:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“don’t call me anti-Semitic, because that is a mortal insult”

So you say . . .

Frankly, I’m against deliberately blunting kids’ minds, against interfering in other’s countries for my or other’s benefit, or impoverishing folks to extinction by financial manipulation, against corrupting people and pretending I’m good, against raping the planet of its benefits and intending the elimination of all those who will not be my slaves and pretending I’m chosen by God for it, I’m against hypocrisy, deceit and lying and a whole heap of other disgusting stuff, and it’s a surprise how often I’m called ‘antisemitic’ for it.

Well, I don’t call myself that, but if some want to call me ‘antisemitic’ for being anti-hyena then perhaps they know something that I don’t, I’ll go along with it, and I’ll wear that badge with quiet pride.

‘anti-semitic’ isn’t necessarily any insult or shame. In the circumstances, it’s a garland.

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By Stockman72, October 7, 2007 at 12:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Here’s a list of the arms Congress just approved for sale and delivery to Israel;

10,000 JDAM tail kits for high precision guidance of bombs in all weathers at ranges of up to 25 km, which are designed for use with the GBU-29-32 BUNKER BUSTERS; 4,000 laser-guided Paveway II munitions kits; more than 11,000 Mk-84 and Mk-82 bombs; 2,000 heavy fortifications-penetrating BLU-109 bombs; and 50 GBU-28 5,000-pound guided BUNKER BUSTERS.

Now you tell me - what are they gonna do with all them BUNKER BUSTERS?

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By Janie, October 7, 2007 at 12:05 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: #105258 by Howard on 10/06 at 6:36 pm

Since there is no use countering the Hasbara-induced ‘arguments’ Howard attempts to make, and feebly, here are some links for those of you new to the topics Howard brings up that should clear up some of his vacant points.

These informed people can dispute the pap Howard is selling better than I could:

APARTHEID
“Israel and Apartheid: In Defense of Jimmy Carter,” by Tony Karon: South African, Jewish, Lived on a kibbutz in Israel, and Senior Editor for Time Magazine.
http://tonykaron.com/2006/12/22/israel-and-apartheid-in-defense-of-jimmy-carter/

ETHNIC CLEANSING & ARAB LAND HOLDINGS
“Survival of the Fittest?” An Interview with Israeli Historian Benny Morris by Ari Shavit
http://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html

‘AMERICAN HOMESTEADERS EARNED OWNERSHIP BY DEVELOPING IT’
“Immigration — and the Curse of the Black Legend” by Tony Horwitz
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/opinion/09horwitz.html

ISRAELIS BUILT ILLEGALLY ON SEIZED PRIVATELY-OWNED PALESTINIAN LAND
Steve Erlanger reports from Israel for the NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/14/world/middleeast/14israel.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/07/world/middleeast/07mideast.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/21/world/middleeast/21land.html

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By iska, October 6, 2007 at 10:17 pm Link to this comment

link for the original debate video http://www.scribemedia.org/2006/10/11/israel-lobby/

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

Re #105258 by Howard on 10/06 at 6:36 pm

I understand. You believe the standard, government-approved history of Israel. It’s the same one I heard when I was growing up. But a very different picture has emerged in recent years. For a different historical perspective, I recommend Alan Pappe’s “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”. Understand how the Zionist project of a Jewish state meant a state with a supermajority of Jews in the entire area of mandate Palestine, that to produce such a state meant expulsion of the native non-Jewish population, that this was meticulously planned by Ben Gurion and the founders of Israel for years and that this was carried out the moment the United Nations granted the partition of Palestine. Learn about the hundreds of villages which had been there for centuries which were demolished after resisters were rounded up and shot and the rest of the population expelled. Learn how the pride of Israel, the parks called “the lungs of the desert” were built over where they had stood. See how those events of 1947-48 are of a piece with the settlement policies of Sharon and with the declared intentions of Zionists since the ninteenth century. There just can’t be a Jewish state without getting rid of the non-Jews, mostly Arabs, who already lived there when the Zionists arrived. In spite of their best efforts, the population of the area is still some 45% non-Jewish, and the demographic specter of a non-Jewish majority looms. The Zionist project cannot be sustained without continued ethnic cleansing. It is time to change course, to transform the ideal of Zionism into a higher ideal, that of a state which embodies universal human values of democracy, which Judaic and Muslim religious can unite in affirming.

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

Re #105253 by Charles Barton on 10/06 at 5:35 pm

It would be fair to say I am anti-Zionist. As I stated before I regard Zionism, the project of a Jewish state in the as undemocratic and colonialist. It is becoming very clear that the concept cannot be sustained, because it leads to apartheid and ethnic cleansing. That is the case right now before our eyes in Israel. Therefore it is time for the United States to support a transition to a multiethnic democracy. That is my position. That is what I would like to debate, now that, thanks to Mearsheimer and Walt, I am allowed to speak freely. So if you wish to debate my position, have at me. But don’t call me anti-Semitic, because that is a mortal insult.

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By Howard, October 6, 2007 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

Only Israel has a moral right to establish a government in that area that they are being accused of “occupying”. And an ‘apartheid state?  Nonsense.

Only a state bsed on political and economic freedom has a moral legitimcy.  Contrary to what the Palestininas are seeking, there can be no “right” to establish a dictatorship.

As to the rightful owners of particular pieces of property, Israel’s founders—like the hmoesteaders in the American West— earned ownership to the land by developing it.  They arrived in a desolate, spasely populated region and drained the swamps, irrigated the desert, grew crops and built cities.  They worked unclaimed land or purchased it from the owners. They introduced industry, libraries, hospitals, art galleries, universities—and the concept of individual rights.  Those Arabs who abandoned their land in order to join the military crusade against Israel forfeited all right to their property.  And if there are any peaceful Arabs who were forcibly evicted from their property, they should be entitled to press their claims in the courts of Israel, which, unlike the Arab autocracies, has an independent, objective judiciary—a judiciary that recognizes the principle of property rights

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

#105253 by Charles Barton on 10/06 at 5:35 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Viorest’s review of Mearsheimer and Walt acknowledges the difference between legitimate criticisms of Israel and of lobbying groups such as AIPAC, and blanket attacks on zionism and the large majority of American Jews, as well as the majority of the American people who support Israel.  Viorest acknowledges the existence of left wing, pro-peace zionist groups, and correctly distinguishes between them and the AIPAC.  The comments on this posting reveal that the usual group truthdig left wing anti-semitic zombies are out in force.
===============================================
Yes? Like who, for instance? Me? Charles Barton, you are doing exactly what the Israeli Lobby does, which is accuse all critics of Israel of anti-Semitism. If someone has said something anti-Semitic in this thread, I haven’t seen it. If you think I am, you have got another think coming.

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By Charles Barton, October 6, 2007 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Viorest’s review of Mearsheimer and Walt acknowledges the difference between legitimate criticisms of Israel and of lobbying groups such as AIPAC, and blanket attacks on zionism and the large majority of American Jews, as well as the majority of the American people who support Israel.  Viorest acknowledges the existence of left wing, pro-peace zionist groups, and correctly distinguishes between them and the AIPAC.  The comments on this posting reveal that the usual group truthdig left wing anti-semitic zombies are out in force.

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

Re #105229 by WriterOnTheStorm on 10/06 at 3:53 pm
(18 comments total)

Tony Wicker writes in #105175:

“This means joining with the rest of the world in the United Nations to vote AGAINST Israeli military occupation and AGAINST Israeli apartheid.  The next Democratic administration will do this if it sincerely wants peace in the Middle East.”

With respect, this is wishful thinking. The whole thrust of this article and of Walt’s & Mearscheimer’s book is that because of powerful Israeli lobbies, no politician is going to risk his/her career to speak out.
==================================================
Hey, Writer, I’m way ahead of you. I have been trying to break the grip of the Israel lobby on U.S. foreign policy since long before Mearsheimer and Walt’s book came out. But I believe this book is a watershed event and it will now become possible to have an open debate in the Democratic party about our alliance with Israel.

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By Douglas Chalmers, October 6, 2007 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment

Quote Milton Viorst: “About 30 or so years ago, when I first began to write of my concern that Israel was embarked on a course that would lead only to recurring wars, or perhaps worse, I received a letter….. admonishing me as a Jew not to wash our people’s dirty linen in public….”

The real attitude of Israel is “Its either them or us!” as regards their Palestinian brothers and sisters and any other states in the region, Arab or Persian or Turk or whatever.  In other words, “winner takes all” and “kill or be killed”! There is no diplomacy.

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

Re #105207 by Nikogda Nichevo on 10/06 at 12:14 pm

“Since 1947-48 the Zionist state has been a Special Purpose Entity of Anglo-American imperialism…
It seems excessively simplistic to paint the SoI’s warmaking as a mere extension of its rightist outlook. The SoI has, in the main, always done whatever the US said it should…If one looks beneath the surface, what’s the main practical role of the Israel Lobby in US politics? From the time of the June 1967 War and reiterated at the end of the October 1973 War, its role was to keep Congress out of any policy-making role in the Middle East, so the Office of the Presifdent Of The United States [POTUS], including certain offices under the POTUS that are not accountable to Congress like the National Security Advisor and the National Security Council, could carry on with their own mandates unmolested. To ascribe this result to a Jewish conspiracy strikes me as an unnecessary and excessive assumption.”
===================================================

Nikogda,

The Israel lobby exerts its influence on Congress and U.S. foreign policy with the cooperation and support of U.S. imperialism. Israel is a client state. Zionists have their own ideological motives, of course.

There is also a strong force within the Israel lobby that is not Jewish, namely organized evangelical Christians who are allied with the most reactionary elements in Israel. These people are very dangerous. Both Zionism and fundamentalist fascist Christianity serve the interest of imperialism. It is a most sinister combination.

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By WriterOnTheStorm, October 6, 2007 at 5:02 pm Link to this comment

RE: #105229

A post script to my previous comment:

If anyone has a better, more succinct, or catchy way of stating the argument, please post it on these pages. I’d love to hear some suggestions.

Shine on…

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By Howard, October 6, 2007 at 5:00 pm Link to this comment

Since its founding in 1948, Israel has had to fight five wars - all in self defense - against 22 hostile Arab dictatorships, and has been repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists.  Kidnapping and murder of Israeli schoolchildren,the hijacking of airliners and the car bombings and death-squad killinigs of thousands of Israeli, American, Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. Today terror groups as Hamas, Hezbellah, Islamic Jihad and the al Aksa Brigade continue to seek the destruction of Israel.
  The land Israelis “occupying’ was captured in a war initiated by its Arab neighbors. Like any victim of aggression, Irael has a moral right to control as much land as is necessary to safeguard itself against attack.  The Palestinins want to annihilate Israel, while Israel wants simply to be left alone.  If there is a moral failing on Isrel’s part, it consists of its reluctance to take STRONGER military messures. If it is right for America to bomb al-Qaeda strongholds in Afghanistan—and it is—then it is equally justifiable for Israel to bomb the terrorist strongholds in the occupied terrotories.

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By WriterOnTheStorm, October 6, 2007 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicker writes in #105175:

“This means joining with the rest of the world in the United Nations to vote AGAINST Israeli military occupation and AGAINST Israeli apartheid.  The next Democratic administration will do this if it sincerely wants peace in the Middle East.”

With respect, this is wishful thinking. The whole thrust of this article and of Walt’s & Mearscheimer’s book is that because of powerful Israeli lobbies, no politician is going to risk his/her career to speak out.

If readers doubt this, here’s a little history to bolster this argument:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KwKmkbz6Jo&mode=related&search;=

This video charters George Bush senior’s (surprise, surprise) attempt to force the Israelis to come to the negotiating table. Basically he decided to stop funding Israeli loan guarantees for housing until Israel ceased establishing new settlements. It did NOT ask them to dissolve old settlements. It did NOT propose to stop the 3 billion dollars of yearly aid. It was a measly threat to stop loan guarantees for housing.

Within days, a literal army of lobbyists descended upon Washington. Senators and Congressman were told on no uncertain terms that AIPAC and others would withdraw all campaign contributions and begin public charges of anti-semitism to any who went along with Bush’s plan. The politicians, many of them still familiar capital hill faces today, tripped over themselves in the rush to denounce Bush’s new restrictions.

So you see, it is quite impossible for any change to occur on the level of mainstream politics.

Yet, if you believe, as I do, that certain pro Israeli groups are setting Christian against Muslim for their own purposes, and that this situation has lately become far more dangerous to world peace, if not our own security as a nation, you are probably wondering what can be done to stop it.

I believe that the change can only occur at the grass roots level. The people must be made aware. But if Jimmy Carter, a former US president and NOBEL PEACE PRIZE recipient can’t even criticize Israel without becoming the target of odious, reprehensible attacks, where does that leave us?

The first thing that needs to be done is to get the word out that it is OK to criticize Israel. You are NOT a bad person if you think that we need to look at all countries equally and impartially do determine what is truly in America’s best interest.

The argument goes like this : IF IT IS OK TO CRITICIZE THE IRAQ WAR WITHOUT BEING AGAINST THE TROOPS, THEN, BY THE SAME LOGIC, IT SHOULD BE OK TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL WITHOUT BEING AN ANTI-SEMITE.

This is the first step to turning things around. Without an acceptance of this simple truth, most people would rather just look the other way. And without this change in public attitude, we’ll get the same old vitriol, fear and hate-mongering arguments that have lead us here in the first place.

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

#105195 by Friedrich on 10/06 at 11:01 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Just what “interests” does “America” have in the middle east?

OIL OIL OIL

Don’t blame Israel for US policy”
=================================================
Friedrich,

The relation between U.S./British imperialism and Zionism is and has always been an ALLIANCE. Neither side is “using” or “manipulating” the other. Neither is more “to blame” than the other. They are in it together and always have been.  Zionists get what they want, support for a Jewish supremacist state of Israel, and imperialists get what they want, which is oil, defense contracts and regional hegemony. It is an unholy alliance that must be opposed and ended if peace in the Middle East is to be possible. That is the fundamental change required of the next Democratic administration.

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By Douglas Chalmers, October 6, 2007 at 1:57 pm Link to this comment

#105207 by Nikogda Nichevo on 10/06 at 12:14 pm: “Everything ascribed to the Israel Lobby, and probably even much worse, is likely true and verifiable. But, again, WHAT INTERESTS ARE SERVED…?”

The reason for Israel is that they are desperate to secure their supplies of oil AND water. The second is the more precious commodity in that region. Pipelines running via Turkey and past Lebanon are vulnerable. That is the realy cost of the six-day war in the 1960’s and the usurpation of Arab and Christian Palestinian lands for Israel which has no friends in the region whatsoever!

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By dick, October 6, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“The Israel Lobby” is an eye opener, and so is the recent article,appearing in the Baltimore Sun, October 2, 2007.  on the Israel attack on the USS Liberty. Israel has been dragging the US down for 60 years.

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By Nikogda Nichevo, October 6, 2007 at 1:14 pm Link to this comment

The linkages of AIPAC, State of Israel [SoI] etc to the Right wing of the Left-Right spectrum has always struck me as rather facile. Since 1947-48 the Zionist state has been a Special Purpose Entity of Anglo-American imperialism. After the Suez debacle of 1956 it became an exclusively American imperial extension. It is difficult to credit that the SoI has control and capacity to target more than 200 nukes independently of the UNited States. Dimona is an offshore U.S. nuclear arsenal.

It seems excessively simplistic to paint the SoI’s warmaking as a mere extension of its rightist outlook. The SoI has, in the main, always done whatever the US said it should. Even the USS LIberty incident [during the June 1967 war] smells to high heaven — why did Lyndon Johnson of all people kowtow to these characters in Tel Aviv?!?! Now it’s come out that the mysterious overflight of Syria last September 6th tested U.S. anti-radar technology aboard that “Israeli” plane. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, please don’t try to tell me it’s a felafel…

If one looks beneath the surface, what’s the main practical role of the Israel Lobby in US politics? From the time of the June 1967 War and reiterated at the end of the October 1973 War, its role was to keep Congress out of any policy-making role in the Middle East, so the Office of the Presifdent Of The United States [POTUS], including certain offices under the POTUS that are not accountable to Congress like the National Security Advisor and the National Security Council, could carry on with their own mandates unmolested. To ascribe this result to a Jewish conspiracy strikes me as an unnecessary and excessive assumption. In these maytters I follow thre advice of William of Ockham: go with the most credible construction available from the known facts. When you wield Ockham’s Razor in this way, all the liberal Zionists’ throats get slit — well, ain’t THAT a shame (music swells…).

Everything ascribed to the Israel Lobby, and probably even much worse, is likely true and verifiable. But, again, WHAT INTERESTS ARE SERVED? Cui bono? Everything that is ascribed to being in the interests of the SoI are in fact “also” very much in the interests of the United States AS AN EMPIRE. Neither Mearsheimer nor Walt want to admit this, while James Petras actually believes that the Israel Lobby is an exception within U.S. imperialism, rather than just another variant on the same old story. M&W;paint Ben Gurion as a military commander driven by Zionist zeal. The facts scream thatg he was a two-bit caudillo for the U.S,-dominated section of the world Zionist movement, from the moment he pushed through the Biltmore Resolution in 1942 in New York that saif the the Jews being trained off to death camps could go fry — so long as the Zionists captured a few Jewish youth to come out to Palestine! Mass-murdering war criminals of this ilk have subsequently become a the stock in trade of the State Department… ikn cen tral America, South America and you-name-it.

Surely, there must be a reason why there’s never been in a movie or television series where the war criminals that spoke English as their mother tongue. Think about that the next time someone demonises the Zionist state while insiisting on portraying the State Department as “naive”. Since WW2, the USA has taken up the mantle of Hitler — and that includes wrecking the Arab-Islamic world by means of its very own “Special Purpose Entity”.

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By Greg Bacon, October 6, 2007 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

Israel Says War on Iraq Would Benefit the Region
By James Bennet

New York Times
February 27, 2003

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz told members of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations last week that after Iraq, the United States should generate “political, economic, diplomatic pressure” on Iran. “We have great interest in shaping the Middle East the day after” a war, he said.

“The shock waves emerging from post-Saddam Baghdad could have wide-ranging effects in Tehran, Damascus, and in Ramallah,” Efraim Halevy, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s national security adviser, said in a speech in Munich this month.

Until recently, Mr. Halevy was the chief of the Mossad, Israel’s spy agency. He said, “We have hopes of greater stability, greater enhanced confidence from the Persian Gulf to the Atlantic shores of Morocco.”

Israelis have also suggested that that an Iraq war may salvage their economy and even prompt the opposition Labor Party to join Mr. Sharon’s coalition in a new government of national unity.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/consequences/2003/0227benefit.htm

Israel To U.S.: Don’t Delay Iraq Attack
Sharon Government Urges Prompt Action Against Saddam

JERUSALEM, Aug. 16, 2002
(CBS) Israel is urging U.S. officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, an aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Friday.
Israeli intelligence officials have gathered evidence that Iraq is speeding up efforts to produce biological and chemical weapons, said Sharon aide Ranaan Gissin.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/18/world/main519037.shtml

To use the brutal words of Ranaan Gissin, an aide to then Israeli PM Ariel Sharon:  “Any postponement of an attack on Iraq at this stage will serve no purpose.”

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By somebodyhelp, October 6, 2007 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

” Moreover, many in decision-making circles swallowed Bush’s claim that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction…

at this point i do not trust the zionists who claim they believed bush’s (did anybody even think bush himself was a major decisionmaker?) but anyway, bush’s claims about wmd’s. it’s more plausible that they said that’s what they believed because it suited their agenda (to destroy iraq)


“As for the Israel lobby, no doubt it weighed in during the deliberations.  Israel’s fears of Iraq, though exaggerated, were surely real.  But the lobby’s power was only marginal on President Bush and his entourage of neocons who long before had made up their minds.  On this matter, the authors overstate their case.  The Israel lobby was a player in the discussion on going to war, but there is little evidence to regard its role as decisive.”

once AIPAC has terrorized the US congress to do what it says it doesn’t need to weigh in directly. thus there will be littel evidence of its role

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By Friedrich, October 6, 2007 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Just what “interests” does “America” have in the middle east?

OIL OIL OIL

Don’t blame Israel for US policy

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By omop, October 6, 2007 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

An Irish Jesuit Priest is quoted as denoucing the repetition/validity of the comment “When I hear or read that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East. I recall that before Israel was established in 1948 we had no enemies in the Middle East”.

IMO. The fact that certain Americans are permitted to hold dual passports, ie US/Israeli, US/British, etc,.allows for possible discrepancies as well as pressured disloyalties. Americans must stop being adjectivised.

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By Douglas Chalmers, October 6, 2007 at 10:57 am Link to this comment

Re #105032 by Howard on 10/05 at 4:56 pm: “...“Israel is America’s staunchest ally….”


Ha ha, “of all the gin joints in all the world”, you want to pick on Israel??? What is the population of this place (clue - it was once known as “Palestine”, uh).

There are 100’s and 100’s of millions of Arabs and Persians and Turks and Kurds and Pakistanis and Afghans living in the region who are only to happy to trade carpets and olives and dates and oil for dollars but now prefer euros. Instead, the USA has chosen to back this tiny shithole of a country against the odds - and it doesn’t even own one single oil well!

No wonder America is going broke in funding wars upon wars in far-flung lands. Being NICE to people is far cheaper in the end….. Oh, I forgot - Judeo-Christians perfer to be led by the nose by self-serving Jews rather than by Christian values. WHO IS THE FOOL???

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 10:50 am Link to this comment

Re #105179 by bigjimbo on 10/06 at 9:46 am
(39 comments total)

“With friends like israel, who needs enemies?”

Well said. One of my favority Jewish expressions.

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By bigjimbo, October 6, 2007 at 10:46 am Link to this comment

With friends like israel, who needs enemies?

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

Re #105032 by Howard on 10/05 at 4:56 pm
(43 comments total)

“Israel is America’s staunchest ally. A good case can be made that aid to Israel, certainly the military portion, should be part of the United States defense budget, rather than of the aid budget because Israel is, next only perhaps to Britain, by far the most important ally of the United States. Virtually without exception, Israel’s government and its people agree with and support the foreign policy objectives of the United States… Israel is indeed America’s unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East and the indispensable defender of America’s interests in that area of the world. The people of the United States, individually and through their Congressional representatives, overwhelmingly support Israel in its seemingly unending fight against Arab aggression and Moslem terror. But that support is not based on the great strategic value that Israel represents to the United States. It is and always has been based on shared values of liberty, democracy, and human rights. America and Israel are aligned by their shared love of peace and democracy. Israel and the United States stand together in their fight against Islamo-fascist terrorism. These shared values, these common ideals, will bind Israel and the United States forever.”
====================================================
Howard,

What a ringing endorsement of the AIPAC line! Are you a speechwriter? You should get a job with the Bush adminstration. Welcome to the debate.

First of all, then, I vehemently oppose U.S. policy in the Middle East, especially under the current Bush administration. Just for starters, I regard the second Iraq war as the greatest foreign policy catastrophe in this nation’s history, exceeding even the Vietnam War. A 5000-year-old civilization has been devastated, and twenty of the population are now refugees. This is a crime against all humanity of colossal proportions. It appears that this madness is about to expand to Iran.

Why, then, would I think that an alliance with Israel which supports this policy and is used to justify it would be a good thing? Obviously I wouldn’t. On the contrary, this is why I oppose the current U.S.-Israel alliance. You say I should favor it on strategic grounds; Israel is America’s loyal attack dog in the Middle East, a knife at the throat of the Arabs and Muslims. Well, I don’t want a loyal attack dog. I don’t want to live my life like a thug, with a knife at other people’s throats. I want to have peace with the Arabs and peace in the Middle East. What you are endorsing is a U.S.-Israel alliance for war, conquest and domination.

As to shared values of democracy, Israel is no more a democracy than South Africa before Mandela. It is a democracy for Jews only. Non-Jews, forming some 45% of the population of the area effectively controlled by Israel are either second class citizens or non-citizens living under military occupation. Zionism, the project of a Jewish state in the Holy Land, goes against fundamental U.S. constitutional principles of non-discrimination on the basis of race, creed, religion or national origin. The concept of a Jewish state is just as incompatible with democracy as is the idea of an Islamic state. U.S. policy should be to peacefully oppose theocracy and support democracy everywhere in the world in an even-handed way, and to do so in concert with international institutions such as the United Nations and the World Court. This means joining with the rest of the world in the United Nations to vote AGAINST Israeli military occupation and AGAINST Israeli apartheid. It means working with the rest of the world to level sanctions and boycotts against Israel if necessary to enforce compliance. The next Democratic administration will do this if it sincerely wants peace in the Middle East.

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 9:56 am Link to this comment

Re #105032 by Howard on 10/05 at 4:56 pm
(43 comments total)

“Israel is America’s staunchest ally. A good case can be made that aid to Israel, certainly the military portion, should be part of the United States defense budget, rather than of the aid budget because Israel is, next only perhaps to Britain, by far the most important ally of the United States. Virtually without exception, Israel’s government and its people agree with and support the foreign policy objectives of the United States… Israel is indeed America’s unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East and the indispensable defender of America’s interests in that area of the world. The people of the United States, individually and through their Congressional representatives, overwhelmingly support Israel in its seemingly unending fight against Arab aggression and Moslem terror. But that support is not based on the great strategic value that Israel represents to the United States. It is and always has been based on shared values of liberty, democracy, and human rights. America and Israel are aligned by their shared love of peace and democracy. Israel and the United States stand together in their fight against Islamo-fascist terrorism. These shared values, these common ideals, will bind Israel and the United States forever.”
====================================================
Howard,

What a ringing endorsement of the AIPAC line! Are you a speechwriter? You should get a job with the Bush adminstration. Welcome to the debate.

First of all, then, I vehemently oppose U.S. policy in the Middle East, especially under the current Bush administration. Just for starters, I regard the second Iraq war as the greatest foreign policy catastrophe in this nation’s history, exceeding even the Vietnam War. A 5000-year-old civilization has been devastated, hundreds of thousands of people have been killed, and twenty percent of the population are now refugees. This is a crime against all humanity of colossal proportions. It appears that this madness is about to expand to Iran.

Why, then, would I think that an alliance with Israel which supports this policy and is used to justify it would be a good thing? Obviously I wouldn’t. On the contrary, this is why I oppose the current U.S.-Israel alliance. You say I should favor it on strategic grounds; Israel is America’s loyal attack dog in the Middle East, a knife at the throat of the Arabs and Muslims. Well, I don’t want a loyal attack dog. I don’t want to live my life like a thug, with a knife at other people’s throats. I want to have peace with the Arabs and peace in the Middle East. What you are endorsing is a U.S.-Israel alliance for war, conquest and domination.

As to shared values of democracy, Israel is no more a democracy than South Africa before Mandela. It is a democracy for Jews only. Non-Jews, forming some 45% of the population of the area effectively controlled by Israel are either second class citizens or non-citizens living under military occupation. Zionism, the project of a Jewish state in the Holy Land, goes against fundamental U.S. constitutional principles of non-discrimination on the basis of race, creed, religion or national origin. The concept of a Jewish state is just as incompatible with democracy as is the idea of an Islamic state. U.S. policy should be to peacefully oppose theocracy and support democracy everywhere in the world in an even-handed way, and to do so in concert with international institutions such as the United Nations and the World Court.

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By Tony Wicher, October 6, 2007 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

Re #105028 by Wanda Marie Woodward, M.S. on 10/05 at 4:23 pm
“As a psychotherapist and specialist in gender psychology, it is this characterological disorder that is going to be the death of us all.”
==================================================
Wanda,

You sound like a female chauvinist to me. It’s a growing sociological problem. Pretty soon men will be regarded as beasts of burden fit only for taking out the garbage while wise and intelligent women run the world.

Being self-centered and self-deluded is not a gender-based characteristic. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with gender. If you think it does, because that is your main area of interest,  that just shows how self-centered and deluded you are.

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By Douglas Chalmers, October 6, 2007 at 8:32 am Link to this comment

#105113 by Greg Bacon on 10/06 at 4:27 am: “...It calls Israel’s armed forces a “500-pound gorilla in Israel. Well armed and trained. Operates in both Gaza [and the West Bank]. Known to disregard international law to accomplish mission….”

Doesn’t that sound rather like “From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli…..”???

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By Douglas Chalmers, October 6, 2007 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

#104836 by weather on 10/05 at 2:19 am: “...May Israel flourish…”

WHY???

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By Jason, October 6, 2007 at 7:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I would be curious how many of the zionist propagandists posting here are actually on the payroll of various pro-israel groups or Israel itself.  Like a true parasite these groups use the very tax money of US citizens to subvert the interests and welfare of its host for other purposes.

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By Robert, October 6, 2007 at 7:13 am Link to this comment

Special report

New revelations in attack on American spy ship

Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn’t tell full story of deadly ‘67 incident

10.02.2007 | The Chicago Tribune
By John Crewdson
Tribune senior correspondent

Bryce Lockwood, Marine staff sergeant, Russian-language expert, recipient of the Silver Star for heroism, ordained Baptist minister, is shouting into the phone.

“I’m angry! I’m seething with anger! Forty years, and I’m seething with anger!”

Lockwood was aboard the USS Liberty, a super-secret spy ship on station in the eastern Mediterranean, when four Israeli fighter jets flew out of the afternoon sun to strafe and bomb the virtually defenseless vessel on June 8, 1967, the fourth day of what would become known as the Six-Day War.

For Lockwood and many other survivors, the anger is mixed with incredulity: that Israel would attack an important ally, then attribute the attack to a case of mistaken identity by Israeli pilots who had confused the U.S. Navy’s most distinctive ship with an Egyptian horse-cavalry transport that was half its size and had a dissimilar profile. And they’re also incredulous that, for years, their own government would reject their calls for a thorough investigation.

“They tried to lie their way out of it!” Lockwood shouts. “I don’t believe that for a minute! You just don’t shoot at a ship at sea without identifying it, making sure of your target!”

Four decades later, many of the more than two dozen Liberty survivors located and interviewed by the Tribune cannot talk about the attack without shouting or weeping.

Their anger has been stoked by the declassification of government documents and the recollections of former military personnel, including some quoted in this article for the first time, which strengthen doubts about the U.S. National Security Agency’s position that it never intercepted the communications of the attacking Israeli pilots—communications, according to those who remember seeing them, that showed the Israelis knew they were attacking an American naval vessel.

The documents also suggest that the U.S. government, anxious to spare Israel’s reputation and preserve its alliance with the U.S., closed the case with what even some of its participants now say was a hasty and seriously flawed investigation.

In declassifying the most recent and largest batch of materials last June 8, the 40th anniversary of the attack, the NSA, this country’s chief U.S. electronic-intelligence-gatherer and code-breaker, acknowledged that the attack had “become the center of considerable controversy and debate.” It was not the agency’s intention, it said, “to prove or disprove any one set of conclusions, many of which can be drawn from a thorough review of this material,” available at http://www.nsa.gov/liberty .

An Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, Mark Regev, called the attack on the Liberty “a tragic and terrible accident, a case of mistaken identity, for which Israel has officially apologized.” Israel also paid reparations of $6.7 million to the injured survivors and the families of those killed in the attack, and another $6 million for the loss of the Liberty itself.

But for those who lost their sons and husbands, neither the Israelis’ apology nor the passing of time has lessened their grief.

One is Pat Blue, who still remembers having her lunch in Washington’s Farragut Square park on “a beautiful June afternoon” when she was a 22-year-old secretary for a law firm.

Blue heard somebody’s portable radio saying a U.S. Navy ship had been torpedoed in the eastern Mediterranean. A few weeks before, Blue’s husband of two years, an Arab-language expert with the NSA, had been hurriedly dispatched overseas.

As she listened to the news report, “it just all came together.” Soon afterward, the NSA confirmed that Allen Blue was among the missing.

“I never felt young again,” she said.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1251

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By Robert, October 6, 2007 at 6:50 am Link to this comment

LET’S TRY THIS LINK/URL FOR MY PREVIOUS COMMENT #10518.

TAKE A GOOD LOOK. WOULD ANY HUMAN WHO LOVES FREEDOM & DEMOCRACY PUT UP WITH THIS ISRAELI NAZI-ZIONIST CRIME?

http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Bethlehem_536/Picture_11178.html

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By Paolo, October 6, 2007 at 6:39 am Link to this comment

Howard says:

“Israel is the only free country in a region dominated by Arab monarchies, theocracies and dictatorships.”

Well, it’s a free country if you happen to be Jewish. If you are Jewish, you are granted instantaneous citizenship the second your feet touch Israeli soil. If you are not Jewish, you have to go through an arduous, years-long process in order to become a citizen.

Most Palestinians have an understandably negative reaction to having to apply for citizenship in a country they and their ancestors have lived in for centuries.

You can have democracy, or you can have a Jewish State. You can’t have both. If Palestinians were allowed the same right to instantaneous citizenship as Jews (under the “law of return”), they would outnumber the Jews, and that would be the end of the Jewish State (though Jews would be a significant minority).

Unfortunately, there really seems to be no good solution to the problem created by the loopy idea of Zionism: that Jewish people should all move to Israel and establish a Jewish State, necessarily kicking out Palestinians from their own ancestral lands. If Palestinians were granted full citizenship, they would of course address the issue of stolen lands. The Jews, naturally, would resist.

To address the problems in the Middle East, we first have to get rid of propaganda that paints Israel one hundred percent moral and right, and Palestinians as one hundred percent immoral and wrong.

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By Robert, October 6, 2007 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

Israel’s Democracy & Freedom “FOR JEWS ONLY” !!!


Return to Bethlehem - بيت لحم :

A queue from hell, Bethelehem-Jerusalem checkpoint #4 (ISRAEL’S APARTHEID CONCRETE FENCE “CUTE NAME FOR IT…EH!)


Take a look at what the Palestinians have to endure from “Israel’s Apartheid Zionist Systems”. These Palestinians will be forced to stand for hours to get to their families, children, work, school, hospitals, farms, towns, villages….

They will endure the most humiliating & brutal treatment from their occupiers, the gruesome IDF (child murderers). Their abuse would be verbal and physical. Any Palestinian who objects to his/her treatment will NOT get through and WHO KNOWS what else!

ITS THE DAMN ZIONIST BRUTAL & IMMORAL OCCUPATION !

(Click to enlarge)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Bethelehem_536/Picture_11179.html

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By Jacob, October 6, 2007 at 6:27 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Milton Viorst is of course very enthusiastic about Mearsheimer and Walt’s book. No surprise here.  It is unfortunate that Viorst could not overcome his bias and see the numerous historical mistakes in the book and in their preceding article. The “new historian” Benny Morris wrote about the article as follows:“Mearsheimer and Walt often cite my own books, sometimes quoting directly from them, in apparent corroboration of their arguments. Yet their work is a travesty of the history that I have studied and written for the past two decades. Their work is riddled with shoddiness and defiled by mendacity. Were “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” an actual person, I would have to say that they do not have a single honest bone in his body.” (The New Republic on line, 04.28.06).
  Does Viorst agree with MW, when they state that the 9/11 came as reaction to the US alliance with Israel and its unwillingness to push Israel to end the occupation of the West Bank.? Does he really believe, like they do, that the only reason for the Islamic terror is Israel?
  As Richard Cohen, a harsh critic of Israel, wrote in the Washington Post: “In the end, Mearsheimer and Walt disappoint. They had an observation worth making and a position worth debating. But their argument is so dry, so one-sided—an Israel lobby that leads America around by the nose—they suggest that not only do they not know Israel, they don’t know America, either.”
  And contrary to MW Israel and the Lobby had nothing to do with the US going to war in Iraq. As Colbert King wrote in the Washington Post: “As far as taking America to war goes, I think top honors belong to George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Don Rumself, Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice - Gentiles all - with a lot of help from Congress.
  Even The Economist, a publication not friendly to Israel, wrote:“At one point the authors complain that Israel and its supporters in America are now rewriting history ‘to absolve Israel of any responsibility for the Iraq disaster’. But it was not Israel that invaded Iraq. Their own book feels like an attempt to absolve America of responsibility for a decision it took by, and for, itself.”
  Here is what Moran said:“AIPAC members are willing to be very generous with their personal wealth. But it’s a two-edged sword. If you cross AIPAC, AIPAC is unforgiving and will destroy you politically. Their means of communications, their ties to certain newspapers and magazines, and to individuals in the media are substantial and intimidating.”
  It suggests an alignment between AIPAC and journalists that conspires to influence news and opinions about Israel. And that AIPAC, through its newsroom and editorial board alliances, can bring hell to bear on wayward politicians.
  Moran did not provide any evidence supporting these charges. But, of course, the connection between the “rich” Jews (sorry, AIPAC members) influencing the press is made.  Does Viorst agree with Moran?
    And no,  Mearsheimer and Walt are not anti-Semites. But, one can’t read The Israel Lobby without realizing that whenever two interpretations exist for some action by Israel or its supporters, Mearsheimer and Walt automatically default to the darker view.
    This explains why Viorst likes the book….

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By ATLMan, October 6, 2007 at 6:24 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Former Alaska Senator Gravel was on Public TV the other night being interviewed and he really slammed AIPAC. He said they orchestrated the recent senate vote on Iran. AIPAC works behind the scenes arm twisting and threatening congressmen to vote their way. Any congressman brave enough to stand up to them will be smeared in the controlled press and see jews pour millions into his opponents campaign in the next election.
AMERICA Held Hostage by a tiny minority.

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By Greg Bacon, October 6, 2007 at 5:27 am Link to this comment

U.S. troops would enforce peace under Army study

Author: Rowan Scarborough; THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The SAMS paper attempts to predict events in the first year of a peace-enforcement operation, and sees possible dangers for U.S. troops from both sides.

It calls Israel’s armed forces a “500-pound gorilla in Israel. Well armed and trained. Operates in both Gaza [and the West Bank]. Known to disregard international law to accomplish mission.”

Of the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, the SAMS officers say: “Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target U.S. forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act.”

http://newsmine.org/archive/9-11/questions/israelis/mossad-false-arab-act.txt

Israel likes to proclaim that it is the U.S. only “friend” in the ME.  Funny, but i can’t help but to think that before Israel came into existence, the U.S. had NO enemies in the ME.

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By CorkExaminer, October 6, 2007 at 5:08 am Link to this comment

Best and clearest article on the right-wing Israel lobby.  Crystal clear—thanks.

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By Robert, October 6, 2007 at 4:48 am Link to this comment

TRUTHDIG STAFF,

SOMEONE NEEDS TO CORRECT THE DATE(S) FOR THE COMMENTS THAT ARE BEING POSTED.

IT IS 10/2007 AND NOT 10/2006 OR 10/2005.


MANY THANKS!

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By Robert, October 6, 2007 at 4:34 am Link to this comment

ISRAEL A FREE COUNTRY?????

IT HAS BEEN SAID THAT A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS. EVEN WITH A THOUSAND WORDS, HOW CAN ONE DESCRIBE THE LOOK IN THE EYES OF A 13 YEAR OLD PALESTINIAN BOY BEING USED BY ISRAEL’S BRUTAL IDF AS A “HUMAN SHIELD” ?

THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS THAT THERE ARE SOME STORIES & TRUTH THAT CAN ONLY BE TOLD WITH PICTURES.

Take a look at the picture and read the TRUTH of this story. Click to enlarge the fine print.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1018

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By Howard, October 6, 2007 at 3:58 am Link to this comment

Israel is the only free country in a region dominated by Arab monarchies, theocracies and dictatorships.  It is only the citizens of Israel—Arabs and Jews alike—who enjoy the right to express their views, to criticize their government, to form political parties, to publish private newspapers, to hold free elections.  When Arab authorities deny the most basic freedoms to their own people, it is obscene for them to start claiming that Israel is violating the Palestinian’s rights.  All Arab citizens who are genuinely concerned with human rights should, as their first action, seek to oust their own despotic rulers and adopt the type of free society that characterizes Israel.

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