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Arts and Culture

Milton Viorst on ‘The Israel Lobby’

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Posted on Oct 4, 2007
The Israel Lobby
israellobbybook.com

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The original article that inspired the book can be found on the London Review’s Web site.  The letters it provoked along with Mearsheimer and Walt’s reply are well worth reading.  The essay also prompted a response by, among others, Christopher Hitchens on Slate.  Some months later, the London Review of Books sponsored a debate at Cooper Union in New York City, which can be viewed here. Also, be sure to read this interview with the authors.

By Milton Viorst

About 30 or so years ago, when I first began to write of my concern that Israel was embarked on a course that would lead only to recurring wars, or perhaps worse, I received a letter from Abraham H. Foxman, then as now the voice of the Anti-Defamation League, admonishing me as a Jew not to wash our people’s dirty linen in public.  I still have it in my files.  His point, of course, was not whether the washing should be public or private; he did not offer an alternative laundry.  His objective was—and remains—to squelch anyone who is critical of Israel’s policies. 

    In the ensuing years, Foxman and a legion of like-minded leaders, most but not all of them Jewish, have been remarkably successful in suppressing an open and frank debate on Israel’s course.  In view of Israel’s impact on America’s place in the world, it is astonishing how little discussion its role has generated.  As a practical matter, the subject has been taboo.  John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, professors of political science at the University of Chicago and Harvard’s John F. Kennedy School of Government, respectively, have challenged this taboo in their new book, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy.”  Foxman, in an effort to discredit them, has written a rejoinder in his book “The Deadliest Lies: The Jewish Lobby and the Myth of Jewish Control.”

 

book cover

 

The Israel Lobby

 

By John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt

 

Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 496 pages

 

Buy the book

book cover

 

The Deadliest Lies

 

By Abraham H. Foxman

 

Palgrave Macmillanm, 256 pages

 

Buy the book

    The controversy over Mearsheimer and Walt’s views has been going on since March of last year, when they first presented their argument in the London Review of Books.  In their essay, they contended that support of the magnitude that the United States gives Israel might have been justified during the Cold War but is not defensible, “on either strategic or moral grounds,” under the conditions that currently prevail in the Middle East.  America’s unconditional backing, they argued, is harmful to its own interests and possibly even to Israel’s, and it is made possible only by the influence of the Israel lobby over U.S. foreign policy.  The article touched a sensitive chord among many of Israel’s defenders, generating a furor.  Now Mearsheimer and Walt have written a book which, while more comprehensive at nearly 500 pages, recapitulates the original themes.  Foxman acknowledges basing his book-length reply on the article, so impatient was he to proclaim its authors guilty of “distortions, omissions and errors.”

    The late social critic Irving Howe, deeply committed to Israel himself, used to argue that Jewish leaders like Foxman depend for their status on ceaselessly trumpeting the dangers faced by the Jewish people, and particularly by Israel, from a hostile world.  These leaders, Howe insisted, exploit the scars which inquisitions, pogroms and the Holocaust have left on the collective Jewish psyche, scars which distort Jewish political judgment.  Foxman is no doubt sincere in agonizing over the dangers that Jews have historically faced.  But Howe argued that these dangers had become a vested interest for the leaders of Jewish organizations, making an open and honest debate all but impossible in American Jewish circles and in America’s political culture generally. 

    Foxman does not quite accuse Mearsheimer and Walt—though other disapproving critics do—of being anti-Semitic.  But he uses intimidating language nonetheless, pointing to a “level of quiet, subtle bigotry—an attitude that may not run to the actual hatred of Jews but that assumes that Jews are somehow different, less respectable, less honorable, more treacherous, more devious than other people. ... [I]t’s only natural that people who exhibit this kind of bias against Jews should look a little askance at the special relationship that exists between American Jews and the nation of Israel.”   

    One can admit the legitimacy of Foxman’s warnings on anti-Semitism and still ask for the evidence of “subtle bigotry” in the Mearsheimer-Walt text.  I found none, unless the reader accepts the premise that anti-Semitism is present in any scrutiny of relations between the U.S. government and American Jews, or the Israel lobby.  Foxman says the authors’ objective is to make Israel into a “pariah” state, though nothing that they write reveals such a goal.  On the contrary, Mearsheimer and Walt recognize lobbies—all lobbies—as a legitimate part of the American political system, existing to shape or shift policy in the interest of the various causes they serve.  Foxman, backed by quotes from such dubious authorities as Dennis Ross, an ex-U.S. ambassador and a vigorous defender of official Israeli views, seeks to attribute something sinister to their motives.

    Without question, Mearsheimer and Walt have written less a work of political science than a brief for their position.  There is nothing wrong with that, as long as they maintain the standards of scholarship incumbent on their craft, which exhaustive footnotes of more than a hundred pages suggest strongly that they do.  Some of their critics, ill at ease with the charge of anti-Semitism or “subtle bigotry,” have accused them of being “unbalanced,” in omitting the sins of “the other side.”  By their nature, briefs are not balanced, but in this case the accusation seems doubly contrived.  Assuming that the Palestinians or radical Muslims are “the other side,” the critics can scarcely claim that the literature is not already overflowing with negative evaluations, readily at hand in any library or bookstore.  The objective of Mearsheimer and Walt is to break new scholarly ground, which is what academics are supposed to do.  Their findings will come as no surprise to those familiar with American political institutions, but, judging by the reverberations of the Foxman line, they have ignited panic by daring to put so much of the available material on the public record.

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By bardofbyte, December 11, 2007 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

While much is made of the seven hundred thousand or so arabs who were displaced in 1948, little is mentioned about the eight hundred fifty thousand
Mizrachi Jews who had to flee arab persecution.
Waves of pogroms were carried out from the 1920s to
the 1960s in Arab lands. In Hebron in 1929 all the Jews who had been living there for centuries were forced out. In Iraq thousands were put in concentration camps in 1940. (Yes there were concentration camps in Arab countries.
The Irony is that Arab persecution helped populate
Israel. Six hundred thousand settled in Israel.
Unlike the Arabs who now call themselves Palestinian
they were not made stateless and confined to refugee
camps, They were given full Israeli citizenship along
with the Arabs who remained in Israel

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By 1drees, November 27, 2007 at 5:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

JabberNow :
Boy do you Jabber and you Jabber senseless LIES as per expectation from an Israeli sympathiser. coz most of them are like that.
Frist of all YOUR ZIONIST MSM does its best to WiPE OUT all signs of ISRAELI atrocities so there never is much sympathies or support to the Palestinians (and even if there is (like Rachel Corrie) then Israelis just simply KILL it. So either the support gets killed or the news gets killed.
Speaking of Killing have you ever acknowledged the ISRAELI arsenal? Most Israeli’s shut up like they dont even have a tongue when the words NUCLEAR BOMBS are mentionned, all except the only truthful man in ISRAEL Mr Mordechai Vanunu and he pays to this day of his truthfulness.
BTW you have more than 300 NUKES undeclared and denied so far, on the record by even the PM of Israel, ( TALK ABOUT LIARS) and 300+ nukes is way more than anyone needs and then you say that your INNOCENT LITTLE STATE ( aka shitty little state) is peaceful and and if so then why develope nukes secretly and then why keep denying them to this day proving yourselves REALLY BIG LIARS. (just to keep recieving American AID?)
Israel is alive thanks to the American Blessings, Israel was always helped out by USA unconditionally due to the ISRAELI lobby’s blackmail of the politicians, in times of Conflict USA has always provided logistics and intelligence UNCONDITIONALLY, or rather USA has been under Israeli conditions since long, like in a recent conflict with HAMAS when the zionist stooge GWB said to stop the conflict and your PM said will end it when HAMAS is dead and later after losing about 30 tanks ( which would of course be replaced by the next years American Military AID) Israelis decided to quit and took them about a year to admit that they been beaten, I MEAN SUCH LIARS THAT TAKES THEM 1 year just to admit what everyone was saying from the start and that too after USA flew in EMERGENCY SHIPMENTS OF ARMAMENTS as per ISRAELI ORDERS as soon as demanded and many times.
AS for the MODEL Israeli society maybe you should look into the Abuse of the sex-workers that are in Tel-Aviv. OR THE HATRED amongst the various kinds of jews within Israel.
Shalolm!
BTW i just saw the term “sworn enemies of Israel” i just wanted to say that i am no such thing ( however i do not fear being labelled as one coz as per their habits they are either bound to do that or declare me an anti-semite too [Although they themselves are ANTI-HUMAN]) i only critisize so as to correct them into a shape that they will be better, i only Point out the mistakes they been making for too too long AND YET THEY COMPLETELY FAILED TO NOTICE OR ACKNOWLEDGE IT ALL. an example is JIMMY CARTER who during his tenure favored Israel very well but as soon as he said one word against their wishes recently all his services were instantly wasted, NOW every ZIONIST/ISRAELI calls him a bad name and many call him “anti-semite”

Also I note that these days everyone is saying that SHARON advised not to attack IRAQ as WMDs had been moved to SYRIA, ( myself a reader of Israeli papers too , never saw that before) Could it be that after IRAN they want SYRIA to be the CHASER? and now they are slowly moving towards that ...

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By 1drees, November 27, 2007 at 4:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#107443 by Hawkwind on 10/16 at 7:42 am

“Baloney. If—as was long ago proposed—the Jewish state had been established in Uganda, the Twin Towers still would be rubble.”
============================================

YEAH! true, Larry Silverstein the Jew might still want top collect $#3 Billion in claims even then.

seems Hawkwind is just pure WIND from the rear

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By Robert, October 18, 2007 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment

Top IDF officer censured over use of ‘human shields’ in Nablus

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent

Israel Defense Forces Brigadier-General Yair Golan was censured on Thursday for allowing soldiers to use Palestinian civilians as “human shields” during military operations in the West Bank.

IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi decided to reprimand Golan - who formerly served as commander of forces in the West Bank - following a probe by the IDF’s criminal investigation division into the army’s use of human shields during raids in the town of Nablus.

Golan was the most senior officer to be questioned in the probe, which the army launched last March after IDF soldiers were filmed forcing a young Palestinian man at gunpoint to lead them from house to house during an arrest sweep in Nablus.
  Advertisement
The army said in a statement that Golan would be passed over for promotion for at least the next nine months.


In a landmark 2005 decision, Israel’s Supreme Court banned the use of
Palestinian civilians as human shields in general, and specifically outlawed taking Palestinian civilians on searches. Before the decision, the army would often have Palestinian civilians knock on the doors of houses where militants were believed to be hiding and ask them to surrender.

The army said the practice - known as the neighbor procedure - prevented
violence by encouraging militants to give themselves up. But in August 2002, a 19-year-old Palestinian student was killed in a gunfight that erupted after he was forced to knock on the door of a building where a Hamas fugitive was hiding.

Since the Supreme Court decision, Palestinians have accused the army of
continuing the practice, but proof was elusive. Human rights groups say the use of civilians in military operations has dropped sharply since the Supreme Court ban, but has not disappeared.

The Israeli rights group B’tselem, which monitors human rights violations in the West Bank, on Thursday praised the army’s decision to reprimand Golan.

“We welcome the fact that the army took this seriously and investigated the case and took action,” B’tselem spokeswoman Sarit Michaeli said. “Golan was a senior officer who broke the law, and we hope that this will send a message to officers that they cannot give orders like this to soldiers.”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/914568.html

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By Shecky, October 17, 2007 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shecky,

“Peaceful process” - what? Whether they called themselves “Palestinians” or not, there were still some 800,000 Arab people expelled from their homes within months of the time the partition was granted by the U.N., and the process by which this was done was anything but peaceful.

This Nakba denial is no better than Holocaust denial. Israel must indeed take responsibility for what it has done and still is doing, instead of blaming everything on “terrorists”.
————————————————————

Tony, You are very quick to leave out some facts!

The UN partition plan included a two state solution!
That is what is meant by peaceful, you know, the UN agreement.
What are you talking about? The newly formed “modern state of Israel” did not know they were going to be attacked by the Arabs.

The Arab refugees were roughly 725,000 people who fled because
of the war that the Arab states – not the Palestinian Arabs—started.
The Arab states - dictatorships all - did not want a non-Arab state in
the Middle East. The rulers of eight Arab countries whose populations
vastly outnumbered the Jewish settlers in the Turkish Empire, initiated
the war with simultaneous invasions of the newly created state of Israel
on three fronts. Nascent Israel begged for peace and offered friendship
and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arab dictators rejected this offer
and answered it with a war of annihilation against the Jews. The war
failed. But the state of war has continued uninterruptedly because of
the failure of the Arab states –Saudi Arabia and Iraq in particular – to
sign a peace treaty with Israel. To this day, the Arab states and the
Palestinians refer to the failure of their aggression and the survival of
Israel as an-Nakba – the catastrophe.
Had there been no Arab aggression, no war, and no invasion by
Arab armies whose intent was overtly genocidal, not only would there
have been no Arab refugees, but there would have been a state of
Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza since 1948.

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By Tony Wicher, October 16, 2007 at 11:47 pm Link to this comment

#107534 by Shecky on 10/16 at 1:17 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands. It was
created out of the Ottoman Empire, ruled for four hundred years by the Turks who lost it when they were defeated in World War I. There
were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians.”
—————————————————————————
Shecky,

“Peaceful process” - what? Whether they called themselves “Palestinians” or not, there were still some 800,000 Arab people expelled from their homes within months of the time the partition was granted by the U.N., and the process by which this was done was anything but peaceful.

This Nakba denial is no better than Holocaust denial. Israel must indeed take responsibility for what it has done and still is doing, instead of blaming everything on “terrorists”.

Report this

By Shecky, October 16, 2007 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The Arab version of the tragic fate of Arab refugees who fled
from the Palestine Mandate before and during the 1948 war and from
Israel immediately after the war, has so thoroughly dominated the
thinking of even well-educated historians, commentators, journalists
and politicians, that it is almost a given that the creation of the State
of Israel caused the flight of almost a million hapless, helpless and
hopeless Arab refugees. Israel caused the problem and thus Israel must
solve the problem.
This assertion, although viscerally engaging and all but canonized
by the anti-Israel propaganda which makes it the core of its narratives
of the Middle East conflict, is unequivocally and totally false.
Origins of the Problem
The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by
the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands. It was
created out of the Ottoman Empire, ruled for four hundred years by
the Turks who lost it when they were defeated in World War I. There
were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people
claiming to be Palestinians. There were Arabs who lived in the region
of Palestine who considered themselves Syrians. It was only after
World War I that the present states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq
were also created – and also created artificially out of the Turkish
Empire by the British and French victors. Jordan was created on about
80 percent of the Palestine Mandate, which was originally designated
by the League of Nations as part of the Jewish homeland. Since then,
Jews have been prohibited from owning property there. Two-thirds
of its citizens are Palestinian Arabs, but it is ruled by a Hashemite
monarchy.

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By Robert, October 16, 2007 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

October 16, 2007

Follow the Leader

The Open Secret About the Israel Lobby

By PAUL FINDLEY

“There is an open secret in Washington. I learned it well during my 22-year tenure as a member of the U.S. House of Representatives. All members swear to serve the interests of the United States, but there is an unwritten and overwhelming exception: The interests of one small foreign country almost always trump U.S. interests. That nation of course is Israel.

Both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue give priority to Israel over America. Those on Capitol Hill are pre-primed to roar approval for Israeli actions whether right or wrong, instead of at least fussing first and then caving. The White House sometimes puts up a modest and ineffective show of resistance before it follows Israel’s lead.

In 2002, President Bush publicly ordered Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon to end a bloody, destructive rampage through the Palestinian West Bank. He wilted just as publicly when he received curt word from Sharon that Israeli troops would not withdraw and would continue their military operations. A few days later President Bush invited Sharon to the White House where he saluted him as a “man of peace.”

I had similar experiences in the House of Representatives. On several occasions, colleagues told me privately that they admired what I was trying to do in Middle East policy reform but could not risk pro-Israel protest back home by supporting my positions.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/findley10162007.html

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By Robert, October 16, 2007 at 1:25 pm Link to this comment

October 16, 2007

Follow the Leader

The Open Secret About the Israel Lobby
By PAUL FINDLEY

(PART II)

“The pro-Israel lobby is not one organization orchestrating U.S. Middle East policy from a backroom in Washington. Nor is it entirely Jewish. It consists of scores of groups—large and small—that work at various levels. The largest, most professional, and most effective is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. Many pro-Israel lobby groups belong to the Christian Right.

The recently released book, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy,” co-authored by distinguished professors John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard, offers hope for constructive change. It details the damage to U.S. national interests caused by the lobby for Israel. These brave professors render a great service to America, but their theme, expressed in a published study paper a year ago, is already under heavy, vitriolic attack.

They are unjustly accused of anti-Semitism, the ultimate instrument of intimidation employed by the lobby. A common problem: Under pressure, the Chicago Council on Global Affairs withdrew an invitation for the authors to speak about their book. Council president Marshall Bouton explained ruefully that the invitation posed “a political problem” and a need “to protect the institution” from those who would be angry if the authors appeared.

I know what it is like to be targeted in this way. In the last years of my long service in Congress, I spoke out, making many of the points now presented in the Mearsheimer-Walt book. In 1980, my opponent charged me with anti-Semitism, and money poured into his campaign fund from every state in the Union. I prevailed that year but two years later lost by a narrow margin. In 1984, Sen. Charles Percy, then chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee and an occasional critic of Israel, was defeated. Leaders of the Israel lobby claimed credit for defeating both Percy and me, claims that strengthened lobby influence in the years that followed.

The result is that Members of Congress today loudly reward Israel as it violates international law and peace agreements, lures America into costly wars, and subjects millions of Palestinians under its rule to apartheid-like conditions because they are not Jewish.

It is time to call politicians to account for their undying allegiance to a foreign state. Let the Mearsheimer-Walt book be a clarion that bestirs the American people to political action and finally brings fundamental change to both Capitol Hill and the White House.

Citizen participation in public policy development is a hallmark of our proud democracy. But the pro-Israel groups subvert democracy when they engage in smear campaigns that intimidate and silence critics. America badly needs a civilized discussion of the damaging role of Israel in U.S. policy formulation.”

Paul Findley represented Illinois in the U.S. House of Representatives for 22 years. He is the author of They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront the Israel Lobby.

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By Tony Wicher, October 16, 2007 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

Re #107098 by Howard on 10/14 at 6:29 pm
(78 comments total)

“The decision to partition Palestine was not determined solely by demographics; it was based on the conclusion that the territorial claims of Jews and Arabs were irreconcilable, and that the most logical compromise was the creation of two states. Ironically, that same year, 1947, the Arab members of the United Nations supported the partition of the Indian sub-continent and the creation of the new, predominantly Muslim state of Pakistan”
—————————————————————————-
What’s ironic? Unlike the partition of India, the Hindus and the Muslims agreed to it. The problem with the Palestine partition is that the people whose land was being partiioned were not asked and never agreed to it. The U.N. may have thought it was “the most logical solution” then, but 60 years of conflict until now proves they were wrong. Then, and even now, the solution is reunification, reconciliation and multiethnic democracy, not partition.

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By Jabbernow, October 16, 2007 at 9:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well we see once again Roberta is posting the usual BS only this time he uses Finkelstein as a source for Haaretz.
Of course Roberta fails to mention in “Israel” freedom to critisize the government is a fundamental right of any Democracy. Israel is the only Democracy in the Middle East, unlike the Arab street where “freedom of speech” is forbidden especially anything critical of the government or Islam.

Reuters, a British News orgainization which has the positively worst bias against Israel so this is not surprising coming from Roberta. In fact, the BBC and Reuters have in the past been so fast in critisizing Israel they have had to make retractions because of false news reporting.

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By Hawkwind, October 16, 2007 at 8:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tim Rutten, LA Times: “Anyone familiar with the tortured history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will have a hard time recognizing the history Mearsheimer and Walt rehearse. Every hoary old Israeli atrocity tale is trotted out, and the long story of Palestinian terrorism is rendered entirely as a reaction to Israeli oppression. The failure of every peace negotiation is attributed to Israeli deviousness under the shield of the American Israel lobby. There is nothing here of Palestinian corruption, division and duplicity or even of this unhappy people’s inability to provide a reliable secular partner with whom peace can be negotiated.

At times, the authors simply contradict themselves, asserting—rather remarkably—at one point that the United States has nothing to fear from a nuclear-armed Iran and, at another, that the dangerous prospect of a nuke-equipped Tehran is the Israel lobby’s fault. Similarly, they write, Al Qaeda would hammer its swords into ploughshares and Osama bin Laden would lay down with the lamb if only the United States would come out from under Israel’s thrall and create by coercion a Palestinian state.

Baloney. If—as was long ago proposed—the Jewish state had been established in Uganda, the Twin Towers still would be rubble.”

David Remnick, The New Yorker: “Where many accounts identify Osama bin Laden’s primary grievances with American support of “infidel” authoritarian regimes in Islamic lands, Mearsheimer and Walt align his primary concerns with theirs: America’s unwillingness to push Israel to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. (It doesn’t matter that Israel and the Palestinians were in peace negotiations in 1993, the year of the first attack on the World Trade Center, or that during the Camp David negotiations in 2000 bin Laden’s pilots were training in Florida.) Mearsheimer and Walt give you the sense that, if the Israelis and the Palestinians come to terms, bin Laden will return to the family construction business.

Steve Huntley, Chicago Sun Times: “The two go to lengths to try to rebut any suggestion of anti-Semitism in their criticism of the American Israeli Political Action Committee and other pro-Israel groups. But you can’t read The Israel Lobby without realizing that whenever two interpretations exist for some action by Israel or its supporters, Mearsheimer and Walt automatically default to the darker view.”

William Grimes, The New York Times: “The general tone of hostility to Israel grates on the nerves, however, along with an unignorable impression that hardheaded political realism can be subject to its own peculiar fantasies. Israel is not simply one country among many, for example, just as Britain is not. Americans feel strong ties of history, religion, culture and, yes, sentiment, that the authors recognize, but only in an airy, abstract way.

Mark LeVine, Asia Times: “Mearsheimer and Walt seem to know little about the Middle East, Israel’s role in US foreign policy, and what are core US goals and strategic interests in the region. They argue that this is a case of the “tail wagging the dog” - a small client state and its allies in the US leading the US government to engage in policies that are manifestly against its interests because of undue political power. But this is nonsense. In fact, it is the other way around.”

Richard Cohen, The Washington Post: “In the end, Mearsheimer and Walt disappoint. They had an observation worth making and a position worth debating. But their argument is so dry, so one-sided—an Israel lobby that leads America around by the nose—they suggest that not only do they not know Israel, they don’t know America, either.”

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Reviewers_Reject_The_Israel_Lobby.asp

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By Robert, October 16, 2007 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

It’s always worth listening to Dugard: he’s smart and he’s honest

Envoy urges UN to quit Quartet over lack of regard for human rights

10.15.2007 | Ha’aretz
By Reuters

The United Nations should pull out of the Quartet of Middle East mediators unless the group starts taking Palestinian human rights seriously, a UN envoy said on Monday.

John Dugard, the UN special rapporteur on human rights for the Palestinian territories, told the BBC the world body “does itself little good” by remaining in the Quartet group of the United States, European Union, Russia and the United Nations.

“In my most recent report to the General Assembly…I will suggest that the secretary general withdraw the UN from the Quartet, if the Quartet fails to have regard to the human rights situation in the Palestinian territories,” Dugard said.

Dugard, who is due to present the report next month, could not immediately be reached for comment.

The South African, who has served in the independent post since 2001, said Israel Defense Forces checkpoints in the occupied West Bank were meant to divide the territory into “cantons” and “make the life of Palestinians as miserable as possible”.

The IDF says its network of West Bank checkpoints, which Palestinians call collective punishment, are necessary to stop suicide bombers.

Dugard’s comments echoed searing allegations from a former UN Middle East envoy who said in June after leaving the post that UN policy in the region had failed because it was subservient to U.S. and Israeli interests.

Alvaro de Soto upbraided the Quartet for failing the Palestinians and also urged the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to “seriously reconsider” continued UN membership in the group.

Dugard said the Quartet was “heavily influenced” by the United States, and criticized Western powers for backing Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah faction while maintaining a crippling boycott of Islamist group Hamas.

“The international community has given its support almost completely to one faction, the Fatah faction,” he said. “That’s not the role the UN should take.”

Dugard was skeptical that the U.S.-sponsored peace conference set to take place in Maryland next month would succeed in bridging Israeli and Palestinian differences on creating a Palestinian state.

He warned of “serious consequences” if expectations are not met, raising the possibility of a third Palestinian uprising, or intifada, against Israel.

“Inevitably in a military occupation, there are likely to be those engaged in resistance,” he said, noting that history may treat those deemed “terrorists” differently .

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1261

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By Mo, October 16, 2007 at 7:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)
18 August 1988
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
“Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which
is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have
received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are
believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt
you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to
you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are
found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with
men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with
poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the
prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed.” (Al-Imran -
verses 109-111).
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it
obliterated others before it” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
“The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little,
to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others.” (Sheikh Amjad al-
Zahawi, of blessed memory).
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
Introduction
Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and
support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and
supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws - everlasting
prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last. Hereafter:
O People:
Out of the midst of troubles and the sea of suffering, out of the palpitations of faithful
hearts and cleansed arms; out of the sense of duty, and in response to Allah’s command,
the call has gone out rallying people together and making them follow the ways of
Allah, leading them to have determined will in order to fulfill their role in life, to
overcome all obstacles, and surmount the difficulties on the way. Constant preparation
has continued and so has the readiness to sacrifice life and all that is precious for the
sake of Allah.
Thus it was that the nucleus (of the movement) was formed and started to pave its way
through the tempestuous sea of hopes and expectations, of wishes and yearnings, of
troubles and obstacles, of pain and challenges, both inside and outside.

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By Robert, October 15, 2007 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment

http://www.worldpeaceforum.ca/live/media/nurit-peled-elhanan-on-racism-and-education

Nurit Peled-Elhanan on Racism and Education
By Kitty Cresswell-Riol [June 27-2006]

VANCOUVER - In a session of the International Peace Education Conference at the World Peace Forum today, Nurit Peled-Elhanan warned of racism embedded within educational textbooks distributed in Israeli schools.

Nurit, an Israeli lecturer in language and education at Hebrew University, was awarded the 2001 Sakharov Prize for Human Rights by the European Parliament.  But foremost, she is a mother of a 13-year-old daughter killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber. She has also become an outspoken peace activist and member of the Families Forum, a group committed to stopping the war in the Middle East. Nurit sees education as the channel through which a culture of peace can be created.

Nurit’s presentation highlighted racism instilled within Israeli school literature against Palestinians and the way in which they are not shown as modern, productive human beings - only as stereotypical scarf-wearing Arabs, masked terrorists, or third world ‘Oxfam images’ and refugees.

She discussed how, in educational literature, the world outside Israel is described as split between Jews and non-Jews and that by generalizing the non-Jewish population of Israel and Palestine as “Arabs” and referring to their situation as “a problem,” through photographs and text, they have been impersonalized and simplified.

As examples, Nurit presented maps, some of which leave Palestinian areas empty of geographical symbols as though they contain no data, historical or social, and illustrations of distorted facts to exaggerate particular points.

Nurit also discussed the use of materials in texts that distort records of massacres and consistently glorify Israeli troops. She noted the utilization of biblical phrases within geography textbooks to justify and legitimize Israeli occupation.

Nurit’s work remains controversial within Israel. She nevertheless, continues to lecture and has been invited to speak to the Israeli Ministry of Education in July.

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By Robert, October 15, 2007 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

JabberJabber…You are NOT impressing anyone here! Keep whining till the cows come home!

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By Jabbernow, October 15, 2007 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I watched the video with Galloway interviewing Ilan Pappe. So what! Ilan Pappe said outright there were good things that came from Zionism or did your fragile mind miss it?  I never heard anything about Jewish history only his opinion on ethnic cleansing. You want history!
Along with Chrisianity and Islam, Judaism is one of the three major monotheistic religions of the world. Israel, a nation, or people, that traces its origins back at least 3,000 years to Abraham, the patriarch who is considered the father of the Jewish faith.
ANCIENT ISRAEL DWELLED IN THE LAND OF Palestine
in the Middle East, and the modern state of Israel, founded in 1948 represents a return of the people to a homeland that had been under domination for more than 20 centuries. (How far back in history do you want to go Robert)
With the passing of centuries any major religion develops within it a great deal of variety and numerous points of view; Islam is divided into serveral competing factions, Christianity is made up of many denominations. So, too, Judaism in the modern period is not uniform.
Gee I wonder what that means!
Hey lets see if Galloway and Pappe can discuss the other side. How about the rise of Islam in the 5th century? Do you know history? Tell us all about how the Arabs enslaved, ethnic cleansed, killed, raped and took Black slaves while burning down churches and putting up mosques in their place.
Robert you whine like a little bitch!

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By Jabbernow, October 15, 2007 at 11:26 am Link to this comment
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Robert, I am not a hardcore Zionist and you still haven’t impressed anyone here but yourself! Even the Palestinians acknowledge Res.242. Apparently you would rather not discuss it because you know nothing about the peace process. All you know is the word Zionist. Tell me genius where did it come from? Who coined it?

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By Robert, October 15, 2007 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

Hey JabberJabber…since you are bored and don’t think too much of Ilan Pappe, the Israeli historian…just keep on jabbering…

Just like I stated “Fanatic Hardcore Zionists” won’t like what he had to say about Israel’s Racism!

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By Jabbernow, October 15, 2007 at 9:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hey Robert! this really isn’t impressing in the least!
Does Amira Hass mention one way to resolve the conflict? Does she take into consideration the Israeli’s have tried to make peace? Does she consider Hamas an unwilling peace partner or the fact the PA still have in their Charter to destroy Israel? Its funny because Amira Hass in her letter tells us all at the end of her article about being an Iraeli most of all.  How can she realistically accomplish this if there is no Israel? Do you understand the words “from the river to the sea”? If you do then tell us all what it means!

This is all redundant BS! I have read these posts, Non Credo and Cyrene use this forum for nothing but calling people stupid or putting someone down who have an opionion other than their own. Real intellectuals here! Instead they only show their immaturity!
I have not witnessed one of you discuss a viable resolution to peace. And Robert, If I show you links to pro-Israel websites how does this convince you? It doesn’t any more than you posting links to “George Galloway” or Amira Hass!

Why not start off with answering this question. What is it you know about resolution 242? Feel free to post a link for 242. Lets read it together and see what comes up! This is something even Amira Hass can do!

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By Robert, October 15, 2007 at 6:51 am Link to this comment

Amira Hass:

Life Under Israeli Occupation - By an Israeli
Jewish journalist Amira Hass doesn’t merely report on the experiences of Palestinians on the West Bank - she shares their lives

by Robert Fisk
 
“Whenever Amira Hass tries to explain her vocation as a journalist, she recalls a seminal moment in her mother’s life. Hannah Hass was being marched from a cattle train to the concentration camp of Bergen-Belsen on a summer’s day in 1944. “She and the other women had been 10 days in the train from Yugoslavia. They were sick and some were dying. Then my mother saw these German women looking at the prisoners, just looking. This image became very formative in my upbringing, this despicable ‘looking from the side’. It’s as if I was there and saw it myself.” Amira Hass stares at you through wire-framed glasses as she speaks, anxious to make sure you have understood the importance of the Jewish Holocaust in her life.
In her evocative book Drinking the Sea at Gaza, Hass eloquently explains why she, an Israeli journalist, went to live in Yasser Arafat’s tiny, garbage-strewn statelet. “In the end,” she wrote, “my desire to live in Gaza stemmed neither from adventurism nor from insanity, but from that dread of being a bystander, from my need to understand, down to the last detail, a world that is, to the best of my political and historical comprehension, a profoundly Israeli creation. To me, Gaza embodies the entire saga of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; it represents the central contradiction of the state of Israel – democracy for some, dispossession for others; it is our exposed nerve.”

Now living in the West Bank town of Ramallah – with the Palestinians whom many of her people regard as “terrorists”, listening to the Palestinian curses heaped upon “the Jews” for their confiscations and dispossessions and murder squads and settlements – Amira Hass is among the bravest of reporters, her daily column in Ha’aretz ablaze with indignation at the way her own country, Israel, is mistreating and killing the Palestinians. Only when you meet her, however, do you realize the intensity – the passion – of her work. “There is a misconception that journalists can be objective,” she tells me, the same sharp glance to ensure my comprehension. “Palestinians tell me I’m objective. I think this is important because I’m an Israeli. But being fair and being objective are not the same thing. What journalism is really about – it’s to monitor power and the centers of power.”

Each day, Amira Hass writes an essay about despair, a chronological narrative she maintains when talking about her own life and about her parents: her mother, a Sarajevo Jew who joined Tito’s partisans and was forced to surrender to the Nazis when they threatened to kill every woman in the Montenegrin town of Cetinje; her father Avraham who spent four years in the Transnistria ghetto, escaping a plague of typhus only to lose his toes to frostbite.

The story of the secular Jews Hannah and Avraham is essential to an understanding of Amira. “My parents came here to Israel naively. They were offered a house in Jerusalem. But they refused it. They said: ‘We cannot take the house of other refugees.’ They meant Palestinians. So you see, it’s not such a big deal that I write what I do – it’s not a big deal that I live among Palestinians.” Hass became a journalist by default. She had survived on odd jobs – she once worked as a cleaner – and traveled to Holland. “I sensed there the absence of Jewish existence. And this told me many things, especially about my attitude to Israel, how not to be a Zionist. This is my place, Israel, the language, the people, the culture, the colors…”

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0826-04.htm

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By Robert, October 15, 2007 at 5:39 am Link to this comment

POSTS BY “HECKLER HOWARD”

SINCE YOUR “POSTS” ARE NOT YOUR WORDS/INFORMATION…HOW ABOUT PROVIDING A SOURCE , A LINK/URL !!!

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By Jabbernow, October 15, 2007 at 5:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ILAN PAPPE, A BRAVE JEWISH ISRAELI HISTORIAN, TALKS ABOUT ISRAEL’S ETHNIC CLEANSING OF THE PALESTINIANS!

FANATIC HARDCORE ZIONISTS WILL NOT LIKE WHAT ILAN PAPPE HAS TO SAY ABOUT ISRAEL AND ITS RACISM!

George Galloway talks about Israel and Palestine with the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe. 

Click on the links for a total squence of 3 parts:
———————————————————————
Yeah! Like I give a shit what Ilan Pappe or George Galloway thinks! First, he Galloway, is married to a Palestninian and Richter is nothing more than a publicity whore like Ann Coulter trying to look important. I might as well go read comments by Yassar Arafat!

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By ray, October 15, 2007 at 3:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

hi

You just have to look at australia a jewish business man has robbed the australian people of billions, whats going to happen nothing. He is the biggest supportor with cash and gifts to the national government.He is protected, what can you say

grant

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By cyrena, October 15, 2007 at 2:08 am Link to this comment

#107096 by Non Credo

•  ….”Cyrena, I believe you were premature in ruling out the possibility that Howard is stupid.”…

Non Credo, I had to laugh out loud. Yes, you’re right. I was premature. But, it’s more serious than ‘plain’ stupid. He’s dangerously stupid. But then, we knew that. The latest post takes us even further back, to 1922, as if that has any connection, reality, or truth to the crimes of the past 60 years.

Meantime, I just came across this. (just because it popped up in the feed). It was actually posted in the NYT, (or that’s where I got it from) but seems to have originated with Reuters, in Jerusalem.

It seems very ‘odd’ to me, that they would only JUST NOW, be doing this. I don’t know what’s up with it.

Olmert Inquiry Is Ordered
Published: October 15, 2007
JERUSALEM, Oct. 14 (Reuters) — Israel’s attorney general ordered the police on Sunday to begin a new criminal investigation into Ehud Olmert’s conduct in government before he became prime minister. A string of corruption probes — three in all — has raised questions about Mr. Olmert’s political survival as he prepares for an American-led conference next month on Palestinian statehood.
Attorney General Menachem Mazuz said in a statement that the investigation would focus on Mr. Olmert’s tenure as minister of industry, trade and labor.
I know, it’s short. That’s all it says. Something’s up.

OH….Condi just got there as well. I’m starting to wonder if she too, has dual citizenship. She’s definitely a frequent flyer on that route.

I guess that would prove Howard right on 1 being out of millions. Then again, I think she might just be one of those ‘left behind’ with the rest of us.

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By Howard, October 14, 2007 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment

And to dispel other myths that have been bandied about on this page it should be known that at the time of the 1947 partition resolution, the Arabs did have a majority in western Palestine as a whole — 1.2 million Arabs versus 600,000 Jews.7 But the Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them by the resolution and in Jerusalem.

Prior to the Mandate in 1922, Palestine’s Arab population had been declining. Afterward, Arabs began to come from all the surrounding countries. In addition, the Arab population grew exponentially as Jewish settlers improved the quality of health conditions in Palestine.

The decision to partition Palestine was not determined solely by demographics; it was based on the conclusion that the territorial claims of Jews and Arabs were irreconcilable, and that the most logical compromise was the creation of two states. Ironically, that same year, 1947, the Arab members of the United Nations supported the partition of the Indian sub-continent and the creation of the new, predominantly Muslim state of Pakistan

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By Howard, October 14, 2007 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment

No, the Myth is that Israel is racist !

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By Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 6:30 pm Link to this comment
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Non Credo on 10/14 at 4:04 pm

Howie, Howie.

Would it be OK for Germany to grab Poland, kicking out the Poles who live there, explaining, “You are Slavic people; so are the Russians. So you should be happy to leave your homes and go to Russia. Russia is much bigger than Germany and Poland put together. You Slavic people have plenty of room. We Germans just want little bitty Poland. If you resist this reasonable request with violence, you are terrorists. And if the Russians don’t welcome you, it just shows that the Slavic people don’t care for their own kind. They should learn from the admirable ethnic solidarity that we Germans show towards each other.”

Howard - you can’t kick people off their lend on the basis of ethnicity, just because to YOU they’re “the same” as some other people who live nearby.

“You’re Arabs, so you should just go live in that other Arab country over there!” - Howie explains.

Is Howard stupid, or does he just hope that we are?

As usual, Non Credible doesn’t know what he’s talking about. 

Following WWII, the Soviet Union did EXACTLY THAT in reverse to Poland and Germany, shifting Poland west, and chopping off the eastern 1/3 for the Soviet Union.  What used to be East Prussia and the Free City of Danzig is now western Poland and the Polish City of Gdansk (Where Lech Walesa got his start). Poles were forcibly removed from eastern Poland and Germans from East Prussia.  The world accepted it in silence.

I know Non Credible and Saran Wrap don’t believe me, but I don’t ask them to or care—simply study modern history.  Or even simpler: Look at a map of Europe prior to September 1, 1939, and again in 1950.

My point (for those with brains and the ability to use them)?  Non Credible’s example is useless and meaningless.

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By Robert, October 14, 2007 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

ILAN PAPPE, A BRAVE JEWISH ISRAELI HISTORIAN, TALKS ABOUT ISRAEL’S ETHNIC CLEANSING OF THE PALESTINIANS!

FANATIC HARDCORE ZIONISTS WILL NOT LIKE WHAT ILAN PAPPE HAS TO SAY ABOUT ISRAEL AND ITS RACISM!


George Galloway talks about Israel and Palestine with the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe. 

Click on the links for a total squence of 3 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhfEWqBvav0&feature=PlayList&p=F18C8A0CAA556AD6&index=0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTk4FwkvFmo&feature=PlayList&p=F18C8A0CAA556AD6&index=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQU_H1zclQk&feature=PlayList&p=F18C8A0CAA556AD6&index=2

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By cyrena, October 14, 2007 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

#107074 by Non Credo

•  Is Howard stupid, or does he just hope that we are?
Non Credo, the answer is, he hopes we are. He’s not stupid, or he wouldn’t have just written all of that other trash about a 1937 Peel Commission. Oddly, he writes all of that, and at the very bottom, he writes: MYTH. And, that’s exactly what it all is. MYTH. As I read through it, I wondered where he could have possibly dug it all up. Why did he post it, (as fact) and then end with – MYTH?

Still, I don’t think he’s stupid, any more than the average psychopath is stupid. He’s just dangerous if anybody actually believes anything he says or writes.

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By Howard, October 14, 2007 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment

The Peel Commission in 1937 concluded the only logical solution to resolving the contradictory aspirations of the Jews and Arabs was to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states.
The Arabs rejected the plan because it forced them to accept the creation of a Jewish state, and required some Palestinians to live under “Jewish domination.” The Zionists opposed the Peel Plan’s boundaries because they would have been confined to little more than a ghetto of 1,900 out of the 10,310 square miles remaining in Palestine.
Nevertheless, the Zionists decided to negotiate with the British, while the Arabs refused to consider any compromises.

Again, in 1939, the British White Paper called for the establishment of an Arab state in Palestine within 10 years, and for limiting Jewish immigration to no more than 75,000 over the following five years. Afterward, no one would be allowed in without the consent of the Arab population. Though the Arabs had been granted a concession on Jewish immigration, and been offered independence — the goal of Arab nationalists — they repudiated the White Paper.

With partition, the Palestinians were given a state and the opportunity for self-determination. This too was rejected.

MYTH

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By Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

He has NOT given up yet! He is laying LOW now, but he will surface back up when things sort of cool down and seems safe enough to blend back in the forum’s crowd. Those have been his habits…illusive but still there monitoring all comments/posts. He and his ilk are professional zionist hecklers and most likely ADL members/volunteers.

Ah, Abu, you genius—you found me out….How am I EVER going to get away from my guilt in causing Hurricane Katrina…And, yes, I caused Mt. St. Helens to explode.  You can blame me for causing the tsunami, and the melting of the Arctic.  Yes, I admit—Krakatoa? That was my nefarious doing as well…I very cleverly have hidden that I was alive in the mid 1800’s.

You are such a crackpot tin-foil-hat paranoid nazi sonuvabitch that I’m sure you’ll believe all that fantasy.  How? Doesn’t matter to you paranoia types.

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By Howard, October 14, 2007 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

At any point during the past 55 years, Arab governments could have helped the Palestinian Arabs settle down to a decent life. They could have created the infrastructure of an autonomous Palestine on the West Bank of the Jordan and the Gaza territory that Egypt controlled until 1967, or encouraged the resettlement of Palestinians in Jordan, which constitutes the lion’s share of the original mandate of Palestine. Rather than fund the Palestine Liberation Organization to foment terror against Israel they could have endowed Palestinian schools of architecture, engineering, medicine and law. What Israel did for its refugees from Arab lands, Arabs could have done much more sumptuously for the Palestinians displaced by the same conflict. Instead, Arab rulers cultivated generations of refugees in order to justify their ongoing campaign against the “usurper.”

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By Robert, October 14, 2007 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

#107041 by cyrena on 10/14 at 1:02 pm
(1251 comments total)

“And, I’m way too old to be the least bit affected by these pathetic threats.

No, ITW has NOT helped his/her case with me. Just made me more aware of the crimes of the entire bunch of them.

And, I still don’t care about the Ben Franklin letter.

I DO know that none of OUR kids are gonna give their lives and limbs for Israel or AIPAC, or any of the other Criminal Thugs currently running this country.”
==============================================

Cyrena ... My gut feeling is that this ITZW doesn’t really care about you or anybody else on this and other forums.

For ITZW and his ilk…POST GOOD, POSITIVE COMMENTS/PROPAGANDA ABOUT…HIS ISRAEL.

ITZW knows that you are articulate, a prolific writer/poster and a compassionate woman. (1) His goals and objectives were to recruit you to write/post for his “Apartheid Israel” and his zionist ideology on truthdig’s forums. (2) If #1 wasn’t achievable, then at least to keep you on his side of his zionist equation.

He has NOT given up yet! He is laying LOW now, but he will surface back up when things sort of cool down and seems safe enough to blend back in the forum’s crowd. Those have been his habits…illusive but still there monitoring all comments/posts. He and his ilk are professional zionist hecklers and most likely ADL members/volunteers.

Take a look at this short video… Scott Ritter is talking about AIPAC and Israel.

Scott Ritter describes Israel’s role in shaping U.S. Foreign policy:

“WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL (VIDEO)”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O125hGt9qt4

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By Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Quite honestly, I’m pretty sick of ITW. I don’t know if he/she has comprehended that he/she has actually made the case for animosity toward them by non-Jewish people here and everywhere.

**********

So now it’s MY fault you’ve decided to hate all Jews?  Sorry, lady, that’s a crock of shit.  You want to dislike or hate me? That you are “sick” of me? That’s one thing.

But deciding you dislike or hate Jews because of ME makes YOU the bigot and the racist. Not my fault, but yours.  And to hate all of a group because of one individual IS SICK!

And I’m damn sick of you, Abu, Non Credible and others constantly re-inforcing each others’ fantasies and then saying it’s MY fault.

Blaming all Jews for my actions makes you an anti-semite, a bigot, even a neo-nazi.

If I was bigoted enough or racist enough or just plain STUPID enough to condemn all African- Americans for your postings and idiocies, then, and ONLY then would I be as bad as you.

But I’m wiser than that.  I stick all your faults and failings, Cyrena, on you and YOU ALONE!

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By cyrena, October 14, 2007 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment

#106965 by Non Credo
Non Credo writes:
(2) Do we really know that ITW researched the matter and proved to us that Franklin said no such thing? ITW is in a constant Jewish Victim panic.

Non Credo,

I would have to guess that ITW probably DID research this, just like he researches any tiny little thing that would allegedly ‘prove’ his/her case, regardless of whether or not it’s relevant to anything else. That’s why he/she is ON it, anytime there’s anything to suggest that an Arab Palestinian has possibly allowed some fart to escape. ITW will swear it as an act of terrorism.

Quite honestly, I’m pretty sick of ITW. I don’t know if he/she has comprehended that he/she has actually made the case for animosity toward them by non-Jewish people here and everywhere.

I’m serious. I grew up here in California, and long enough ago that I was raised in a working class neighborhood that had a bunch of Jews. (Asians, Blacks, and Whites as well). So, I never developed any sort of bias against anybody. (at least not based on race, class, or religion. And, I didn’t become aware of the political power of the Jews in this country until much later. By then, (because I was too busy to pay a whole lot of attention to politics) and because I was by then thoroughly immersed in the ‘corporate customer service’ mentality. I STILL didn’t exercise any bias, because on my personal and professional level, I not only KNEW a lot of Jews, but the ones I knew were perfectly OK with me. (I have run into some that were overwhelmingly obnoxious, but I didn’t blame the entire race for them, since I know some overwhelmingly obnoxious black and white and Asian folks as well.)

But now, I hear people like ITW and Howard, and they make the rest of them look just as bad. AIPAC should be classified as a hate group, and the rest of them just keep making it worse for themselves, by letting folks like this show their true face. The Jews I know DO NOT support Israel’s atrocious human rights violations, and they see the Palestinian case for what it is, a Holocaust perpetrated against them, by the Jews of Israel and the world. It’s the longest running case of ethnic cleansing in the history of the world, and ANYBODY who finds reasons/excuses to support it, is rotten to the very core of their souls. (or, they don’t even have souls).

And, I’m way too old to be the least bit affected by these pathetic threats.

No, ITW has NOT helped his/her case with me. Just made me more aware of the crimes of the entire bunch of them.

And, I still don’t care about the Ben Franklin letter.

I DO know that none of OUR kids are gonna give their lives and limbs for Israel or AIPAC, or any of the other Criminal Thugs currently running this country.

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By Robert, October 14, 2007 at 9:43 am Link to this comment

Democracy is more than going to the polls

By Amira Hass


“Potentially, hundreds of thousands of Jewish Israelis could have taken part in activities against the multi-faceted Israeli oppression - the apartheid laws and orders, military attacks, hidden information, economic siege, land expropriation, expanding settlements, and more. Not a hair on their head would be touched. These are people who say they support peace, with a Palestinian state beside Israel. But apparently their interpretation of participation in democracy is going to the polls once every few years, and faint protest in their living room.

However, democracy also is displaying civic responsibility, by constantly supervising the political decisions and acts between elections, thus ensuring that democracy’s essence has not been eroded. Those who say they support a two-state solution are ignoring the other facet of the democracy-for-Jews - the military regime that it imposes on the Palestinians. This regime creates faits accomplis all the time, foiling the last chance for a solution (i.e. full withdrawal with slight changes to the June 4, 1967 lines and establishing a Palestinian state).

The Jewish citizens who enjoy their democracy are not personally harmed by its other facet. On the contrary, they gain from it - cheap land and quality housing, additional water sources, a cadre of security professionals in demand worldwide, and thriving defense industries. This is the “calm” that even self-defined peace supporters refrain from disrupting.

In the Soviet empire and racist South Africa - like in today’s Burma (Myanmar) - objecting to oppression involved a high personal price. Therefore, one could understand the objectors who chose not to act. In Israel, because it is a democracy for Jews, all those who sit idle, ignoring what is being done in their name, bear a heavy responsibility.

Chiefs of staff, prime ministers, ministers and generals are not the only ones responsible. Anyone who theoretically objects to oppression, discrimination and expulsion, but does not actively take part in the struggle and in creating a constant popular resistance to topple the apartheid regime we have created here, is responsible.”

(Amira Hass is a Jewish Israeli reporter)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/908880.html

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By Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 7:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

(2) Do we really know that ITW researched the matter and proved to us that Franklin said no such thing?

Here’s something you don’t understand, you or Cyrena:

The beauty of intellectual honesty is I don’t expect you to believe me. I don’t want you to believe me. I want you to see for yourselves and convince yourselves. All I can do is suggest an avenue of research but you intellectually lazy types have to get off you asses and do the work yourselves, and challenge your assumptions.

Cyrena:

Your implications that I am not loyal to America and PARTICULARLY the American Constitution, without which we are just another empire (See George W. Bush) continues to reveal that you, like Non Credo, Abu and the rest, are incapable of critical thinking, and just throw any crap against the wall to see what will stick.

I should move to Israel? That’s like telling you that you should go “back” to Africa.  It’s stupid and insulting.  And typical.

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By Dan Rose, October 14, 2007 at 7:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

They will never forgive the Jews that (they,the Jews) birthed Jesus.

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By Jabbernow, October 14, 2007 at 6:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Non Credo get a clue!  The poor economic conditions of the Palestinians are a direct result of Palestinian militants killing Israeli civilians. It is a result of failed Palestinian leaders especially Arafat who never was a serious partner in peace. Ask me why the Palestinians live in those conditions and I would ask you to tell me where all the hundreds of billions of dollars went that the US, EU and the rest of the Arab world gave them for the past 30 years? They could have easily built new housing only they want the sympathy of the world just like your giving them. Arafat who put away untold millions in Swiss bank accounts and who traveled the world living like a King in plush penthouses while his so-called people live in squalor.
The Palestinian Charter still calls for the destruction of Israel. Why don’t you read Res.242 and stop your whining! What did you expect Israel to help them after they are attacked? Give me just one example of any country in the world that would willfully give back land it won in a defensive war? That is a war in which the Israeli’s were attacked and threatened with annihilation, the 67’ borders only represent armistice lines it is not representative of a safe and secure border. The Israeli’s have been in 6 wars in which they were attacked they defended themselves each time and won. This is not a chess game where one side loses and we put back the pieces and play again! This is a dispute over land. Name one country in the world that would have gone through what the Israeli’s have and not have finished the job right the first time. Russia? China? What if Canada and Mexico simultaneously attacked the US with cross border raids killing US soldiers and kidnapping others? What do you think the US response would be? It would be swift and deadly, no superpower in the world or any sovereign country for that matter would put up with it. I can tell you know a lot about the Arab street. In the Middle East if you are attacked and fail to retaliate then you are perceived as weak. Every time the world comes to the rescue of the poor Palestinian militants just when the Israeli’s are ready to finish the job. If the Palestinian people want peace they need to elect true leaders for peace. Hamas is only capable of escalating the fighting and now the Israeli’s will end up electing a hawk and we once again see the cycle of violence escalate…

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By Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 5:29 am Link to this comment
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Non Credo on 10/14 at 3:52 am
(348 comments total)

from #106867 by Robert on 10/13 at 4:33 pm:

“he [Tony Blair] was genuinely taken aback by his trip to the West Bank sector of the Jordan Valley – where Palestinians are allowed to dig wells only a third as deep as Israelis – at the exploitation of resources by the rich Jewish agricultural settlements at the expense of closed-in Palestinian farmers.”

Does not this single detail tell us all we need to know about the supposed ethical superiority of the Israelis? Does it not prove them to be deeply vicious and arrogant, even sadistic ?

As usual, a VERY obvious detail is omitted: The Palestinians are NOT Israeli citizens. If Arab Israelis are also not allowed to dig full-depth wells you’d have a point.

Also, as has been well-documented for at least 20 years, the REAL conflict isn’t over land but over water rights.


We are all Palestinians.

Then prepare to be beaten up by the Palestinian Morality Police, with their red armbands and AK-47s,
if you eat or drink anything during Ramadan.  Your fellow Palestinians will be much harder on you than the IDF—and with less predictability and justice.  Prepare to abandon religious and political freedom for Taliban-like conformity and brutality.

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By cyrena, October 14, 2007 at 5:21 am Link to this comment

#106781 by Inherit The Wind
•  As for you, Cyrena, I thought you had a brain and a pair of eyes. I see I was mistaken, since you couldn’t figure out that the nazi was quoting that phony citation of Benj. Franklin’s as a message that excluding Jews from America was PRECISELY what he was advocating.  I won’t make that mistake again.

I’ve lost you here ITzW:

I’m not sure what it is that you think I couldn’t figure out, and so that means that –for me at least- it obviously was NOT IMPORTANT!! I’ll repeat what I said in the comment, WHOMEVER you claim was ‘advocating” the exclusion of Jews from America, (which is your psychotic claim) would pretty much be ‘whistling in the wind”.

In other words, just pretty much shooting off at the mouth, (or keyboard) the same way YOU do. That’s because the REALITY is that Jews will never be excluded from America.

Now, I asked you before, why this was such a traumatizing thought for you, (being excluded from America) when you can - at any time, go to the wonderful land of Israel. Why is that such a harrowing thought? Isn’t Israel a wonderful place? I mean, heaven on earth, at least for Jews?

I don’t understand it.

Now of course I know you won’t answer or respond to this question, which is the only reason I’m even posing it. Admittedly, I’m going against the very advice that I suggested to Non Credo, which was to simply ignore you. But hell, now that I’m without a brain or a pair of eyes, I can be excused for indulging in such a wasteful pass-time.

Toodles. (have you run out of your meds again?)

PS…on the Ben Frankin thing, that you pointed out to be a forgery? It wasn’t that I couldn’t ‘figure it out’. The point was that I DIDN’T try!! IOW…it was NOT IMPORTANT. (at least not to me). I really didn’t care. I wasn’t even AWARE of it. THAT’S why I thanked you for researching it.

OTOH, it wouldn’t have mattered to me, whether or not I EVER became aware of the existence of such a letter, whether it was a ‘forgery’ or not.

Get those meds refilled. You’re a danger to yourself and others.

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By Robert, October 13, 2007 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

Tony Blair “genuinely” shocked that world is round

Blair admits he is shocked by discrimination on the West Bank

10.13.2007 | The Independent
By Donald Macintyre in Hebron

While his aides munched tuna bagels thoughtfully provided by the Israeli military, a shirt-sleeved Tony Blair peered intently at a map showing the two main cargo crossing-points that will function between the West Bank and Israel once the 450-mile separation barrier between them is complete.

Why, Mr Blair wanted to know from his host, an Israeli general in civvies, couldn’t goods also be moved directly across the border from the nearby Palestinian industrial park that he is pressing Israel to approve?

“Why can’t they go straight through?” Ah, that would be difficult, the general explained, requiring a whole new expensive security apparatus to check goods going into the park.

We are a long from way from No 10. At Tarqumia to be precise, just inside the West Bank and one of those crossing points – a forbidding grey antenna and camera-studded complex of checkpoints still under construction. Mr Blair is on the road, grappling with the mind-numbing complexities of how the physical security infrastructure of the occupation has squeezed the Palestinian economy.

It is a theme reinforced for him in Hebron, the Palestinian city whose core was once the thriving commercial hub of the southern West Bank. Its mayor, Khaled Osaily, briefs him extensively about how much of its old city is boarded up, stripped of Palestinian life because of the presence of some 800 Jewish settlers, and their military protectors.

As Mr Blair’s convoy threads out of the city through the afternoon Ramadan traffic afterwards, Mr Osaily compliments Mr Blair on his thirst for facts. No, they had not talked much about the prospects for the forthcoming US-convened Annapolis conference on which hopes of any revival of a peace process have no been vested by the international community and in the preparations for which Mr Blair is intimately involved. “He is a practical man,” said Mr Osaily. “He asked many questions about daily life here. We talked about the economy, about movement, about security. He wanted to know details.”

Mr Blair gave the Israeli daily Yedhiot Ahronot his stock answer yesterday to questions about what he has learnt since taking the job. “I have learnt the depth of Israel’s concern for security, and I have learnt the depth of the Palestinians’ distress caused by the occupation.”

Certainly he accepts Israel’s view that Palestinians should not have a state until it can reasonably guarantee its neighbour’s security. Hence the importance he attaches to the efforts that US General Keith Dayton is making to beef up Palestinian security forces. Indeed he has been telling diplomats and others that the emergency Palestinian Prime Minister, Salam Fayad, does not enter Nablus because he will not make the deal with the militias needed to guarantee his security.

He was shocked by what he was told about conditions in Hebron and diplomats say he was genuinely taken aback by his trip to the West Bank sector of the Jordan Valley – where Palestinians are allowed to dig wells only a third as deep as Israelis – at the exploitation of resources by the rich Jewish agricultural settlements at the expense of closed in Palestinian farmers. And he has been privately dismissive – rather more so perhaps than he was as Prime Minister – of the argument by some Israelis that security comes first, with economics and a political deal well behind it. “All three have to happen together” he has told diplomats – which is what he sees Annapolis as being about. This week he has been concentrating on the economics and is pressing Israel to permit job growth in the West Bank’s Area C, where it has direct as well as total control – including a Japanese government plan for an “agro-industrial” park in the Jordan Valley.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1256

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By Jabbernow, October 13, 2007 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment
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While Jimmy Carter and other critics of Israel attempt to paint the country as intolerant and discriminatory toward Arabs based on their ill-informed and distorted views of both the past and present, Israeli Arabs themselves have a very high opinion of their country. According to a new poll released in January 2007 (Uzi Arad and Gal Alon, “Patriotism and Israel’s National Security - Herzliya Patriotism Survey 2006,” Herzliya: Institute for Policy and Strategy, 2006), 82 percent of Israeli Arabs said it is “better to be a citizen of my country than others.” By comparison, 90 percent of Americans agreed with the statement and 88 percent of Israeli Jews.
In addition, 77 percent of Israeli Arabs agreed “my country is better than others,” which was only slightly less than the 83 percent of Australians and 79 percent of Canadians and Americans who felt the same way. Interestingly, the figure for Israeli Arabs was 11 points higher than that for Jews.
While almost everyone in the survey from Ireland and the United States said they were proud to be a citizen of their country, 83 percent of Israeli Jews said they were proud and 44 percent of Israeli Arabs. Another 27 percent of Israeli Arabs said they were willing to fight for their country, an increase from 22 percent in 2000. While still well below the overwhelming 94 percent of Israeli Jews who are prepared to fight ( Finland was second with 83 percent and the U.S. third with 63 percent), it is significant that more than one-quarter of Israeli Arabs, who are exempt from military service, are still prepared to defend their nation.
Analyzing the survey data it is clear why Israeli Arabs are adamant about remaining citizens of Israel and express no desire to be part of a Palestinian state. The results also illustrate why Palestinian Arabs in the territories express a high regard for Israel in polls. They see how their fellow Arabs are treated and the type of society Israel has built and wish to emulate it.
It is too bad the Jimmy Carters of the world do not see Israel the way its citizens – Jewish and non-Jewish – view their nation. If they did, they’d recognize that Israeli society can serve as a model, albeit an imperfect one, for the values they espouse.

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By rav karzer, October 13, 2007 at 12:37 pm Link to this comment
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They will never forgive the Jews that (they the Jews) birthed Jesus.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 13, 2007 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment
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#

Robert on 10/13 at 9:51 am
(449 comments total)

Comment #106754 by cyrena on 10/13

Cyrena…great comment & description/analysis of ITZW.

Just get ready for the next one from ITZW. He is going to label you as a “sworn enemy of Israel”. And he may just help his Israeli buddies to silence your clear voice of TRUTH about Israel’s crimes of brutal murder of Palestinian children and civilians!

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#

#106791 by Flakcatcher on 10/13 at 8:01 am
(1 comments total)

Non C

Oooh, you should never have said that, not even thought it.  You’re for it now, booked for extermination, with the assassination squads already slipping out into the shadows, led by Tony Wotsit and that Thingy Wind.

Maybe if you said sorry and swore it was a quip . . .

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#

#106761 by Non Credo on 10/13 at 4:58 am
(341 comments total)

Cyrena - obviously your warning came too late to prevent my going to the trouble of refuting ITW.

As for ITW’s paranoia - I’m real sick of having to live in a world of falsehoods in order to accomodate Jewish paranoia.

ITW’s position is essentially, “It doesn’t matter what’s really true. What matters is that if people are allowed to know or think certain things, that’s dangerous for my personal security. Therefore, certain assertions - like the assertion that the Iraq war was for Israel’s benefit - must be denied and suppressed, regardless of whether they are true or not.”

In ITW’s world, a thing is a priori untrue solely because it makes him feel unsafe for other people to think it. Well, tough.

You @$$#01&$ approach intellectual honesty the way tag-team wrestlers play fair when the ref’s back is turned. I hope you are all having fun in your regular round-robin nazi-celebrating circle jerk. Didn’t you get the news? Your hero, Hitler, blew his brains out 62 years ago after turning most of Europe into an ash heap.  Between you maniacs on the one side and Bush and HIS idiots on the other, I weep for America’s future and America’s freedom. You endanger both.

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By Robert, October 13, 2007 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

Comment #106754 by cyrena on 10/13

Cyrena…great comment & description/analysis of ITZW.

Just get ready for the next one from ITZW. He is going to label you as a “sworn enemy of Israel”. And he may just help his Israeli buddies to silence your clear voice of TRUTH about Israel’s crimes of brutal murder of Palestinian children and civilians!

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By Flakcatcher, October 13, 2007 at 9:01 am Link to this comment

Non C

Oooh, you should never have said that, not even thought it.  You’re for it now, booked for extermination, with the assassination squads already slipping out into the shadows, led by Tony Wotsit and that Thingy Wind.

Maybe if you said sorry and swore it was a quip . . .

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By Inherit The Wind, October 13, 2007 at 7:58 am Link to this comment
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ITW’s position is essentially, “It doesn’t matter what’s really true. What matters is that if people are allowed to know or think certain things, that’s dangerous for my personal security. Therefore, certain assertions - like the assertion that the Iraq war was for Israel’s benefit - must be denied and suppressed, regardless of whether they are true or not.”

A typical example of Non Credo’s making any old lies up and attributing it to someone he wants to slander. Not ONCE have I ever said that, or implied that the truth should be ignored.

But what I DO deny is that YOUR “truth”, Non Credo is the Truth. It is nothing but a pack of propaganda and deliberate falsehoods.  You have ignored ALL of my REAL views and analysis to paint this phony ultra-Likudnik-Zioniest target on my back.

You don’t care about the facts or the truth just so long as you can shout your racist agenda from the rooftops.

As for you, Cyrena, I thought you had a brain and a pair of eyes. I see I was mistaken, since you couldn’t figure out that the nazi was quoting that phony citation of Benj. Franklin’s as a message that excluding Jews from America was PRECISELY what he was advocating.  I won’t make that mistake again.

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By cyrena, October 13, 2007 at 5:25 am Link to this comment

Non Credo on 10/12 at 3:03 am
•  Um, no, ITW. Maybe you’re stupid, or intellectually dishonest, or both?

Non Credo: Just an observation on ITW….He/she is NOT ‘stupid’  at least not in an intellectual sense. Intellectually DISHONEST….YES!! DEFINITELY that!! But no more ‘stupid’ than Hannibal Lecter, and equally as psychopathic.

•  It’s hard to know where to start in refuting you, the evidence is so abundant.

This is why I wouldn’t bother, tempting though it may be. Engaging him/her in any constructive dialogue is worthless. The only reason anyone is ‘tempted’ to engage in an realistic dialogue, is because he/she is deceptive enough, (or maybe just schizophrenic or bi-polar, or whatever) to actually seem reasonable from time to time. Then, the next thing you know, he/she is attempting to site some ‘incident’ (like the alleged ‘behavior police’ of the Ramadan celebration) or some alleged suicide bomber that she/he claims has targeted innocent Israelis, (like when, in 1985?) or the latest ‘threat’ to American Jews, for his/her overactive neuroses. Most recently he’s hollering that the “Jew haters” are trying to get rid of the American Jews, and leave them out of the US Constitution.

And, I don’t get what all the panic is about, because while there is ZERO chance of that happening, (American Jews left out of the Constitution? Yeah right. When pigs fly!!! But what is overwhelmingly ‘curious’ about the whole thing, is that he is SO terrified that he and other Jews might be ‘banished’ or forced to flee the US. Now, what could be so wrong with that? Surely ISRAEL will open her arms to ALL of them!

Don’t they WANNA go to ISRAEL? Howard says it’s a wonderful country. So, why don’t they just get their happy asses on an airplane, (or a boat) and go to ISRAEL? Is Israel not such a nice place to live? What’s up with that? They could use their double/triple or more citizenship to partake in the bounties provided by the US taxpayers. So, I just don’t understand it.

That’s why I suggest ignoring ITW and Howard as well. Both are annoying in their dogged insistence that Israel continue to pimp us, and they never mention a word about the billions, and billions of US dollars that are being poured into Iraq, on Israel’s behalf.

BUT, if you really can’t resist responding, just start posting a new “Israeli Killing” (like families with kids on the beach, minding their own business) and just every day, post a mention from any local newspaper or website in the area, on how many women and kids the IDF has killed/imprisoned/tortured everyday, since it’s a never ending thing with them.
Whatever you do, don’t let yourself get sucked into the discussion, because then he results to the same old crap…diverting attention, avoiding direct questions, and making shit up. All lies, obviously figuring, (counting on, hoping that) most people will believe it without checking. So, just start posting those whenever you can. Robert does a good job with this. And the response from ITW is NEVER to address the question, or respond to whatever the most recent attack is…but rather to change the subject and/or start in on a personal attack/tirade (complete with name calling and threats)

So, just don’t bother.

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By Howard, October 13, 2007 at 4:00 am Link to this comment

As Alan Dershowitz’s name was mentioned; why yes, I read his book: “The Case for Israel”
I liked it better than this one by Mearsheimer and Wait.  Dershowitrs writes in a more rational, logical and accurate manner.  Well documented, too !
  I’d like to see it reviewed on this site.

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By Robert, October 12, 2007 at 10:44 pm Link to this comment

Comment #106656 by Tony Wicher on 10/12

Tony…it is an honor to be on Norman Finkelstein’s side. I have seen your posts for many, many months and I still like a lot of your comments.

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By Robert, October 12, 2007 at 9:30 pm Link to this comment

October 08, 2007
Harvard Prof Says Google Cancelled His Talk on Israel Lobby

At an appearance at Columbia University tonight, Stephen Walt, a Harvard professor and former dean, said that he and University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer were slated to speak at Google headquarters recently to discuss their bestselling book The Israel Lobby and at the last minute the event was cancelled mysteriously. “We were scheduled for Wednesday. Our publicist got an email on Friday afternoon,” Walt said. The email didn’t say why the event was cancelled.

Walt says that at most of the venues the authors have spoken, the management has told them of the pressure they got to cancel the event. And often when they have appeared, it was with the understanding that someone from the other side would be presenting the opposite argument soon after, to balance their views. The two couldn’t appear “without someone following us…

“That’s not the way we’re supposed to do business in the United States,” Walt said.

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/10/harvard-dean-sa.html

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By THE MANGEMEISTER, October 12, 2007 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher states that Alan Dershowitz is a smearmeister.Please Tony and other posters learn to spell,it is not Dershowitz it is Dorkwithoutwits.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 12, 2007 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment
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Tony Wicher on 10/12 at 5:45 pm
(270 comments total)

Re #106448 by Inherit The Wind on 10/12 at 2:12 am
Re #106419 by Robert on 10/11 at 8:30 pm
Re #106645 by Robert on 10/12 at 4:56 pm

Robert, I like both you and ITW but in this case I have to side with ITW and NPR and against you and Norman Finkelstein. This interview with Jimmy Carter strikes me as fair enough. The interviewer asked critical questions and Carter gave strong answers. The questions may have come from a pro-Israeli viewpoint, but he was given a fair chance to respond. I did not see any attempt by NPR to smear Carter as anti-Semitic; it only noted that he had been called that and asked for his response. Finkelstein may call NPR “National Prostitute Radio” on other grounds, but this interview by itself is innocuous. Dershowitz is a smearmeister, as I hope we all agree, but this is innocuous.


*******

Uh-oh, Tony, now you’ve done it!  Robert’s not going to invite YOU to his birthday party….no pizza and cake for YOU!!!  And he’s going to tell everyone in 4th grade that you stink and your mother takes in washing.

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By Tony Wicher, October 12, 2007 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment

Re #106448 by Inherit The Wind on 10/12 at 2:12 am
Re #106419 by Robert on 10/11 at 8:30 pm
Re #106645 by Robert on 10/12 at 4:56 pm

Robert, I like both you and ITW but in this case I have to side with ITW and NPR and against you and Norman Finkelstein. This interview with Jimmy Carter strikes me as fair enough. The interviewer asked critical questions and Carter gave strong answers. The questions may have come from a pro-Israeli viewpoint, but he was given a fair chance to respond. I did not see any attempt by NPR to smear Carter as anti-Semitic; it only noted that he had been called that and asked for his response. Finkelstein may call NPR “National Prostitute Radio” on other grounds, but this interview by itself is innocuous. Dershowitz is a smearmeister, as I hope we all agree, but this is innocuous.

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By Robert, October 12, 2007 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

January 29, 2007
“We Are All Victims of the Occupation”

Let Our Children Live

By NURIT PELED-ELHANAN

“Bassam Aramin spent nine years in an Israeli prison. He belonged to Yasser Arafat’s Al Fatah in the Hebron area and attempted to throw a grenade at an Israeli army Jeep in occupied Hebron. Last Wednesday morning, an Israeli soldier in a jeep in his village of Anata, on the West Bank, shot his nine year old daughter, Abir, in the head. The soldier will not spend an hour in jail. In Israel, soldiers are not imprisoned for killing Arabs. Never. It does not matter whether the Arabs are young or old, real or potential terrorists, peaceful demonstrators or stone throwers. The army has not conducted an inquiry in Abir Aramin’s death. Neither the police nor the courts have questioned anyone. There will be no investigation. As far as the Israeli Defense Forces are concerned, the shooting did not happen. The army’s official account of her death is that she was hit by a stone that one of her classmates was throwing “at our forces.”

We who live in Israel know that stones thrown by 10 year olds do not blow brains out. Just as we see every day the Israeli jeeps circling Palestinian children on their way to and from school and greet them with stun-bombs, “rubber” bullets and riot control gas.

A bullet penetrated Abir Aramin’s skull, while she was walking to school with her sister. I saw her just afterwards at Hadassah Hospital, where she slept quietly in a huge hospital bed. Abir’s face was white. Her huge eyes were closed. By then, she was already brain dead, and the doctors decided to allow the rest of her to die. I saw clearly that her head had been shot from behind, and I will testify under oath to that fact. A young student who witnessed her shooting told journalists that the Israeli border police, who are part of the IDF, drove up to the girls as they came out of their school examinations. “The girls were afraid and started running away. The border police followed them in the direction in which they were retreating. Abir was afraid and stool against one of the shops at the side of the road. I was standing near her. The border policeman shot through a special hole in the window of his jeep that was standing very close to us. Abir fell to the ground I saw that she was bleeding from the head.”

Abir Aramin is dead. The doctors at Hadassah will not disclose the cause of her death to her parents or her friends. Her family has requested an autopsy. Her father, Bassam Aramin, is one of the founders of Combatants for Peace. My son, who served as an Israeli soldier in the occupied territories, is also a member. They are friends. Bassam told us that he cannot rest until his daughter’s killer convinces him that nine year old Abir threatened his life or the life of the other soldiers in his jeep. I fear he will never have the chance to rest.

Abir Aramin has joined the thousands of other children killed in this country and the territories it occupies. She will be welcomed by my own little girl, Smedar. Smedar was killed in 1997 by a suicide bomber. If her killer had survived, I know he would have been sent to prison for his crime.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/peled01292007.html

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By Robert, October 12, 2007 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

Comment #106448 by ITZW on 10/12

Inherit The Zionist Wind…Click on the link/URL and see what Norman Finkelstein calls NPR. Its right there at the top.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=851

If the Palestinian “morality” police are beating people for ramadan violations, then its pretty bad.

Your IDF child murderers shoot and kill 9 and 10 year old Palestinian girls and boys. YOUR IDF…NEVER SPENDS ONE (1) HOUR IN PRISON…NEVER. That is what Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan wrote in one of her articles about the 9 year old Palestinian girl who was shot in the head in cold blood. The IDF stated that is was from a stone!

Her IDF murderer walked away scot-free. No investigation and NOT one hour in prison!

There is a huge IDF child killing trail…just read what Gideon Levy, Norman Finkelstein, Amira Haas and Nurit Peled-Elhanan have written!

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By Inherit The Wind, October 12, 2007 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Non Credo on 10/12 at 2:35 pm
(333 comments total)

#106458 by Inherit The Wind on 10/12 at 3:24 am
(Unregistered commenter)

Non Credo on 10/12 at 3:03 am
(329 comments total)
....
You’re wrong.

I know. I’m sorry. I used my brain, my logic, my ability to read and valid sources.
—————

Um, no, ITW. Maybe you’re stupid, or intellectually dishonest, or both?

It’s hard to know where to start in refuting you, the evidence is so abundant.

I guess irony escapes you. That’s not usually a mark of intelligence.

You don’t use logic, reasoning or facts. You just quote propaganda sites that re-enforce your existing prejudices, particularly the one that says all Jews are evil no matter what they do.  The only abundant evidence is that you dig up crap from whatever sleazy sites you can.

And you lie like a dog on rug.  As do all your cronies.  That’s because ANYTHING is justified if it helps you “get” the Jews, isn’t it?

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By Shecky, October 12, 2007 at 10:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By their nature, briefs are not balanced, but in this case the accusation seems doubly contrived.  Assuming that the Palestinians or radical Muslims are “the other side,” the critics can scarcely claim that the literature is not already overflowing with negative evaluations, readily at hand in any library or bookstore. This is an excerpt from Viorst!

This statement is absolutely absurd! 
The assertion that any library or bookstore is overflowing with negative evaluations on radical Muslims and or Palestinians, and therefore there is no need to focus on them is pure nonsense and evades the whole point. The authors of the Israel Lobby in one statement suggest that they believe Israel should exist and believe the US should support Israel if it’s existence is threatened.
Well, no doubt! So what don’t you understand? The PA still have in its charter the destruction of Israel. Saddam Hussein threatened Israel and fired off rockets killing innocent civilians during the Gulf War. Ahmadinejad in Iran made threats to wipe Israel off the map! In 1967 Nasser also made similiar statements to wipe Israel into the sea. Before that Arab leaders in 1948 that made the same threats. In O6’Hizbollah and Hamas both attacked Israel killing soldiers and kidnapping others.
What don’t the authors understand about the Israel lobby acting like a lobby to protect Israel’s existence from hostile neighbors?
I would like to see Viorst back up his statement and entertain us with this informative literature overflowing with negative evaluations on Palestinian militants or radical Muslims.

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By Howard, October 12, 2007 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

Israel behind the U.S starting the Iraq War?  Again this tiring canard?  It’s quite irrational from any viewpoint.  Give us all a break from such continued nonsense.
  Yeh, yeh, I know ; they started WWI, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. And they caused Katrina,too.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 12, 2007 at 4:24 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Non Credo on 10/12 at 3:03 am
(329 comments total)
....
You’re wrong.

I know. I’m sorry. I used my brain, my logic, my ability to read and valid sources.  I didn’t put on my tin-foil hat, I didn’t look for ways to blame “zionists”, and I didn’t cite nutty paranoid web sites.
I also didn’t make shit up or ignore inconvenient truths.

(Note the clever way I chose to congratulate Al Gore on his well-deserved Nobel Peace Prize.  That must stick in your craw, Non Credo, that the leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah didn’t get it, and neither did the Syrian president.  Maybe next year.)

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By Inherit The Wind, October 12, 2007 at 3:12 am Link to this comment
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Robert on 10/11 at 8:30 pm
(439 comments total)

N(ational)P(rostitute)R(adio) .....

Typical Robert-Abu…You can’t show that NPR is reporting false stories so you try to paint them as biased

ITZW…What do you think would happen to a Palestinian, Christian, Moslem if he were to been seen eating regular bread instead of “matza” while passing by a synagogue full of worshipers or one of the Ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods/section in Israel during the Jewish Passover?

What do you think the Israeli police or Jewish worshipers would do?

Hmmm….???

Another Robert-Abu dirty little trick.  In Israel, if you are walking down the street eating bread on Passover, the police will do NOTHING—and your implication that they will is typical Robert-Abu horseshit.  Of course, what Robert-Abu is ALSO telling us is that HE thinks the “Morality Police” in the West Bank beating people for violating Ramadan is A GOOD THING.  Naturally. In his mixed-up neo-nazi world, if a Moslem does ANYTHING, no matter how despicable, that’s “understandable”, but NOTHING a Jew does is ever anything but evil.

Will the Ultra-Orthodox react badly, even violently? Quite possibly—and (had you READ what I wrote) you’d know I think that is not only wrong, but that the police should arrest them.  It’s assault, pure and simple.  They are Likudniks and I have ALREADY stated that I think Likudniks are bad for Israel.

Or don’t you bother to read anything that shakes up your crazy tin-foil-hat world view where you don’t trust NPR but do trust that anti-semitic paranoid Michael Rivero?

Why am I even asking?

Anyone who trusts Michael Rivero over NPR has no credibility—and shouldn’t have any.

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By Verne Arnold, October 12, 2007 at 2:58 am Link to this comment

#105458 by TAO Walker on 10/08 at 1:30 am
(137 comments total)

Verne Arnold is right, though, when he says the Earth Herself will abide.  He might be pleasantly surprised when he comes ‘round to discovering again that Her Two-legged Children, ALL free and wild once more, will go on living with Her.

HokaHey!

Tao, I pray you are correct in this. 

Peace

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By Robert, October 11, 2007 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

Tony…great posts regarding “My Favorite Anti-Semite”.

Glad to see your posts back on truthdig.

Thanks Tony!

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By Robert, October 11, 2007 at 9:30 pm Link to this comment

N(ational)P(rostitute)R(adio) tries to get Carter to retract book’s title (wouldn’t its subscribers love it?) but he stands his ground

Jimmy Carter Defends ‘Peace Not Apartheid’

01.25.2007 | NPR.org

“Morning Edition, January 25, 2007 · Former President Jimmy Carter finds himself in a defensive posture after criticism of his new book Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. The best-seller has generated a passionate response in critics who say it is slanted toward Palestinians, and full of inaccuracies.

Since the book was published, Carter says he has been branded an anti-Semite and a bigot. Reaction to the book included the resignation of 14 members of a Carter Center community board, who say Carter puts too much blame on Israel.

Carter responded to those charges at Brandeis University this week, where he was later rebutted by Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz.

In that appearance, the former president defended the book’s accuracy, save one passage Carter now calls “terribly worded,” that seemed to justify terrorism by Palestinians on Israeli citizens.

Carter says he was not completely surprised that his choice of the word “apartheid” in the book’s title garnered criticism.

Yet Carter says he hopes his book will raise awareness about conditions for Palestinians in the West Bank.

Here’s the conversation with Steve Inskeep in full:”

Click on link for the rest of the story:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=851
——————————————————————————-
ITZW…What do you think would happen to a Palestinian, Christian, Moslem if he were to been seen eating regular bread instead of “matza” while passing by a synagogue full of worshipers or one of the Ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods/section in Israel during the Jewish Passover?

What do you think the Israeli police or Jewish worshipers would do?

Hmmm….???

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By cyrena, October 11, 2007 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

#106406 by Tony Wicher

“....As a South African veteran of the liberation struggle, I can testify that there are few, if any, more decent, humane, courageous and morally unimpeachable individuals in the world than Bishop Tutu…. “

THANK YOU TONY WINCHER!! For bringing this up. I can indeed testify to the same. I’ll share your comments.

Bishop Tutu is right up there with Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr, and a handful of others that God has provided to MANKIND, world-wide.

And, this is how we treat him. Pretty sad, eh? No, it’s worse than sad. It will continue to be our undoing.

But, according to the Bible, ‘they’ did the same thing to Jesus. What can I say, other than that hypocrisy apparently continues to rule the day.

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By Tony Wicher, October 11, 2007 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

“My Favorite Anti-Semite” from
http://tonykaron.com/2007/10/03/my-favorite-anti-semite/
(Part 1)
The utterly charming thing about the Zionist Thought Police is their apparent inability to restrain themselves, even from the very excesses that will prove to be their own undoing. Having asked sane and rational people to believe that Jimmy Carter is a Holocaust denier simply for pointing out the obvious about the apartheid regime Israel maintains in the occupied territories, the same crew now want us to believe that Archbishop Desmond Tutu is an anti-Semite. No jokes! That was the reason cited for Tutu being banned from speaking at St. Thomas University in Minneapolis. “We had heard some things he said that some people judged to be anti-Semitic and against Israeli policy,” explained university official Doug Hennes.

The “anti-Semitic” views Tutu had expressed were in his April 2002 speech “Occupation is Oppression” in which he likened the occupation regime in the West Bank, based on his personal experience of it, to what he had experienced as a black person in South Africa. He recalled the role of Jews in South Africa in the struggle to end apartheid, and expressed his solidarity with us through our centuries of suffering. But then turning to the suffering inflicted on the Palestinians, he issued an important challenge, one that might just as well have been uttered by a Jewish biblical prophet:

“My heart aches. I say, why are our memories so short? Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions? Have they forgotten that God cares deeply about the downtrodden?

“Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won’t let ambulances reach the injured.

“The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.

“Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or – and I hope this will be the road taken – to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders.

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By Tony Wicher, October 11, 2007 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

“My Favorite Anti-Semite” continued

“We in South Africa had a relatively peaceful transition. If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world. South Africa is a beacon of hope for the rest of the world. If peace could come to South Africa, surely it can come to the Holy Land.”

Tutu is absolutely right, of course, nor would those Israelis who embody the same tradition of indivisible human rights that Tutu personifies disagree with him.

Frankly, this case I think this case underlines precisely how absurd the policing of discussion about Israel in the U.S. has become. As a South African veteran of the liberation struggle, I can testify that there are few, if any, more decent, humane, courageous and morally unimpeachable individuals in the world than Bishop Tutu. Speaking truth to power is what he’s always done, both to the old regime in South Africa as much as to the new, when the latter has failed to live up to the standards it professes on AIDS, crime and other issues.
He has spoken forcefully on human rights struggles around the world, and his statements about the West Bank are based on what he has seen there. The diminutive Bish is a moral giant of our times, and the fact that he is condemning Israel for maintaining an apartheid system on the West Bank should serve as a wake-up call to liberal Americans who prefer not to think about these things. Yes, of course Bishop Tutu makes people uncomfortable; that’s what he’s always done, like a good cleric, challenging his flock to consider their own actions and omissions against the morality they profess to embrace. Instead, thanks to the atmosphere created by the right-wing nationalists of AIPAC and the ADL etc., many mainstream institutions would now prefer to shoot the messenger, if only to avoid incurring the wrath of those who have stripped the very term “anti-Semitic” of its meaning (by using it as a bludgeon in defense of behavior utterly abhorrent in the Jewish tradition as much as anything else), and as such, commit a great crime against Jews and Judaism.

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By Tony Wicher, October 11, 2007 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

“My Favorite Anti-Semite” part 2

Not that Tutu would have been surprised by this clumsy attack on him. As he said in that Boston speech,

“But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the U.S.], and to criticize it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic, as if the Palestinians were not Semitic. I am not even anti-white, despite the madness of that group. And how did it come about that Israel was collaborating with the apartheid government on security measures?

“People are scared in this country [the U.S.] to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful – very powerful. Well, so what? This is God’s world. For goodness sake, this is God’s world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosovic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.

“Injustice and oppression will never prevail. Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful: What is your treatment of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes judgment.

“We should put out a clarion call to the government of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people and say: peace is possible, peace based on justice is possible. We will do all we can to assist you to achieve this peace, because it is God’s dream, and you will be able to live amicably together as sisters and brothers.”

Tutu is challenging American institutions to put morality above the power of a lobby. (Yes, I know he called it “the Jewish lobby” and I don’t think of it as that; I think of it as a rightwing Likudnik lobby open to right-wing jingoists of every religious and ethnic stripe who share the Likudnik vision, but then again, I can understand Tutu’s confusion here, because it’s not as if any mainstream Jewish institutions have stepped forward and said no, these people who would suppress honest discussion of Israel speak only for themselves, not for the Jews…)

More power to him.

Postscript: Seems that even the likes of the ADL realize that when they’re seen to be trying to gag someone like Bishop Tutu, they’re destroying their own credibility in the eyes of many Jews. Not least in response to the efforts of the good people of Muzzlewatch, it seems that the university has reversed itself and restored Tutu’s invitation, with the support of even the ADL.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 11, 2007 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oh, BTW, this was the latest “joy” and mark of “freedom” from the West Bank:

Today, on NPR’s Morning Edition, there was a report that Al Fatah has now a unit of police wearing armbands reading “MORALITY POLICE”. These “freedom fighters” go around carrying AK-47s and their job is to make sure nobody violates the fasting rules of Ramadan (which is nearly over).  Anyone seen eating, drinking or smoking,  may be beaten in the street, arrested, even kept overnight.  Of course, non-Moslems are equally subject to this kind treatment.  And, in the language of the “Robert” types, this is described as “enhancing” freedom and liberty.

THIS is what is held up by the Israel haters as morality, freedom and justice.

Not a nutty right-wing or Jewish site.  NPR, National Public Radio.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 11, 2007 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Sepharad,

What if the people of the West Bank and Gaza stopped shooting rockets and voted to become Israeli citizens in a referendum? Should Israel accept them?

Like statehood doesn’t happen overnight, but takes a VERY long time and a VERY long commitment to the USA for a territory to become a state (Alaska took over 90 years), so, too, proving a willingness to be part of Israel and live by Israeli laws should allow Israeli citizenship to be possible.  But, of course, that violates 242 because it would mean that Israel would have to FORMALLY annex the West Bank. 

So if the West Bank can’t be part of Israel, the people there cannot be citizens.  But if it can and is annexed, the people there must show loyalty and devotion to the State of Israel (Lawful dissent is, to me, part of that loyalty and devotion).

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By Tony Wicher, October 11, 2007 at 6:18 pm Link to this comment

Re #106078 by Sepharad on 10/10 at 1:09 pm

“Re non-Jewish citizens in Israel, they are not treated as dhimmis (Arab term for truly second-class citizens, i.e., non-Moslems, who pay more taxes and have fewer rights). Arab Israelis vote, have representatives in the Knesset and MAY—but are not forced to—join IDF, which is compulsory for all Jews. The fact that so many Arab Israelis do join IDF says something about the way their feelings for Israel, but even more eloquent is the fact that when land for peace was being considered, and several Arab villages and their lands were proposed to become part of a Palestinian states, the Arab residents affected hotly rejected joining the nascent Palestinian nation. One Arab man shouted, in front of the Knesset, “We’re Israelis! You can’t trade us away!” So the government didn’t.”
———————————————————————-
Sepharad,

What if the people of the West Bank and Gaza stopped shooting rockets and voted to become Israeli citizens in a referendum? Should Israel accept them?

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By Tony Wicher, October 11, 2007 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

Re #106185 by Inherit The Wind on 10/11 at 2:49 am
Yet despite my disagreements with them, and their vehement attacks on ANY criticism of Israeli policies (Like the Xtian Right on any GOPer who DARES suggest MAYBE women have a right to choose), I do kind of understand their position.  That is, the anti-Semites will use ANY opening, any failure to attack Israel in particular and Jews in general…and they are not wrong in that. I am OPENLY critical of Israel, yet I am attacked and vilified because I don’t call for it to be turned to a plain of glass by thermonuclear mega-tonnage.
—————————————————————————
ITW

It is indeed true that anti-Semitism is making solution of the problem almost impossible. Nevertheless, it remains the case that the increase in anti-Semitism we are seeing today is blowback from the policies of the Likudnik government. Jews both inside and outside Israel must see this and change course.

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By Howard, October 11, 2007 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

The words “apartheied”, “racist” and “Zionist oppression” are myths. There are 20 very large Large Arab lands surrounding Israel, which itelf is a majority of Jewish people. But Arabs live in Israel and live there nicely, are members of parliament, and can vote and join the IDF if they want to (and many do). The same with Christian citizens.
  Now compare that with Jordan, whose Constitution forbids Jews from living there.

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By Tony Wicher, October 11, 2007 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

Check out this wonderful web site for Israelis who oppose Israeli apartheid. I agree with every word Tony says and I have been saying the same things as an American citizen.

http://tonykaron.com/2007/10/02/israelis-fighting-israeli-apartheid/

Here is my position put simply. The Zionist project of a Jewish state in the Holy Land means creating a Jewish supermajority there. There is no way to do that without getting rid of the Arabs. Therefore, Zionism means ethnic cleansing. The current Israeli government is faithfully carrying out the Zionist project, by relentlessly persecuting the Arabs until they give up and go to Jordan or wherever. Either you honestly say that this is your objective or you give up on the Zionist project, that is, on the idea of a Jewish state. Instead, you will change your objective to that of transforming Israel into a true multiethnic democracy in which all residents of the land are full equal citizens. 

I believe that if the Israeli people adopt this objective, they will find an answer among the Palestinian people, and that they will have the support of the United States, the United Nations, Arab countries and the whole world in making this transformation.

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By Howard, October 11, 2007 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

As mentioned…..wherein are the Saras amongst the Arabs?  Sara’s article subtitles “How can children of Holocaust survivers do this?”
  And the “do this” is simply defending oneself or nation !
  Should Israel go through another holocaust? If Israel is destroyed by her enemies, that’s what will happen. All this little country is doing is trying to survive.

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By Robert, October 11, 2007 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

#106201 by Howard on 10/11 at 5:12 am
(58 comments total)

“Sara’s story (if you read the WHOLE ARTICLE !) is very good. Fortunately, she still loves Israel.”
===========================================
“Heckler Howard”...ARE YOU SURE THAT YOU READ SARA ROY’s ARTICLE? You might want to read some of her words from the excerpts from her article below:


“For unlike past conflicts involving Israel and the Palestinian and Arab peoples this one feels qualitatively different—a turning point—not only with regard to the nature of Israel’s horrific response—its willingness to destroy and to do so utterly—but also with regard to the virtually unqualified support of organized American Jewry for Israel’s brutal actions, something that is not new but now no longer tolerable to me.”


“Many of the people, both Jewish and others, who write about Palestinians and Arabs fail to accept the fundamental humanity of the people they are writing about, a failing born of ignorance, fear and racism. Within the organized Jewish community especially, it has always been unacceptable to claim that Arabs, Palestinians especially, are like us, that they, too, possess an essential humanity and must be included within our moral boundaries, ceasing to be “a kind of solution,” a useful, hostile “other” to borrow from Edward Said. That any attempt at separation is artificial, an abstraction.”

 

 

 

“What are Jews now capable of resisting: tyranny? Oppression? Occupation? Injustice? We resist none of these things, no more. For too many among us they are no longer evil but necessary and good-we cannot live, survive without them. What does that make us? We look at ourselves and what do we see: a non-Jew, a child, whose pain we inflict effortlessly, whose death is demanded and unquestioned, bearing validity and purpose.”

 

 

 

 

 

“We can easily ignore their suffering, cut them from their food, water, electricity, and medicine, confiscate their land, demolish their crops and deny them egress—suffocate them, our voices stilled. Racism does not allow us to see Arabs as we see ourselves; that is why we rage when they do not fail from weakness but instead we find ourselves failing from strength. Yet, in our view it is we who are the only victims, vulnerable and scarred. All we have is the unnaturalness of our condition.”

 

 

 

 

“We consume the land and the water behind walls and steel gates forcing out all others. What kind of place are we creating? Are we fated to be an intruder in the dust to borrow from Faulkner, whose presence shall evaporate with the shifting sands? Are these the boundaries of our rebirth after the Holocaust?”

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By Flakcatcher, October 11, 2007 at 7:13 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“With the hatemongers fairly well identified and quarantined . . .”

“ITW and I will stand shoulder to shoulder fighting Nazis like you until every last one of you is exterminated from the face of the earth.”


So, impartial observers will note that from Wicher’s mouth, if you differ from their opinion you’re a ‘Nazi’ and a ‘hatemonger’ and will be ‘exterminated from the face of the earth’.

Well, looking at history and at the world today, we shouldn’t be too surprised, should we?  But it might make us consider what counter-action we should take against their threat - Though that would then be our fault, of course.

These are not very nice animals, are they?

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By Howard, October 11, 2007 at 6:12 am Link to this comment

Sara’s story (if you read the WHOLE ARTICLE !) is very good. Fortunately, she still loves Israel. Now can we mention, discuss, the Hamas and Hezballah leadershp that shows Israel nothing like Sara’s feelings, but just hatred and rage and a desire to eradicate the peoples and state of Israel.
  Where are the Saras on the other side of this equation?
  The Hamas and Hezbellah leaders mislead their peoples. And the surrounding Arab countries DO NOT WANT them to have their own country, either. It benefits them to have them in the camps, so that they with their autocratic governments can keep their population eyes turm outward against an imagined enemy and not towards them in power. They do not want a powerful economic viable democrtic or semi-democratic in existence next to Israel. Would make them look bad. Very bad.
  If the Pal’s would extend their hand of peace to Israel, they could be come the ‘Switzerland ’ of the mid-east. Israel’s more their friend than all the Arab sheiks. If they would only ‘see’ it !

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By Robert, October 11, 2007 at 4:03 am Link to this comment

“How Can Children of the Holocaust Do Such Things”

“A Jewish Plea”

By SARA ROY

April 7 / 8, 2007

“For my mother and father Judaism meant bearing witness, raging against injustice and refusing silence. It meant compassion, tolerance, and rescue. In the absence of these imperatives, they taught me, we cease to be Jews.

Many of the people, both Jewish and others, who writeabout Palestinians and Arabs fail to accept the fundamental humanity of the people they are writing about, a failing born of ignorance, fear and racism. Within the organized Jewish community especially, it has always been unacceptable to claim that Arabs, Palestinians especially, are like us, that they, too, possess an essential humanity and must be included within our moral boundaries, ceasing to be “a kind of solution,” a useful, hostile “other” to borrow from Edward Said. That any attempt at separation is artificial, an abstraction.”

“Why is it virtually mandatory among Jewish intellectuals to oppose racism, repression and injustice almost anywhere in the world and unacceptable—indeed, for some, an act of heresy—to oppose it when Israel is the oppressor, choosing concealment over exposure?”

“What are Jews now capable of resisting: tyranny? Oppression? Occupation? Injustice? We resist none of these things, no more.  For too many among us they are no longer but necessary and good-we cannot live, survive without them. What does that make us? We look at ourselves and what do we see: a non-Jew, a child, whose pain we inflict effortlessly, whose death is demanded and unquestioned, bearing validity and purpose.”
***************************************************

An outstanding article by Sara Roy and one that exposes her Judaism vs Zionism.

Here is the link to Sara Roy’s article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/roy04072007.html

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By Inherit The Wind, October 11, 2007 at 3:49 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

My first question is whether you would agree that the Israel lobby is supporting what you call the Likudist fundamentalist ideology (which is what I call Zionism) and its policies as implemented by the current Israeli government, particularly the Sharon settlement policy? I’m guessing you would.

My second question is whether you would say that most Jews in the United States are not fundamentalist Zionists and have good reason not to be identified with these objectives or with a state that has these objectives?

Tony:
Viorst already answered the first question better than I can. And I have already answered the second.

I think “quarantine” is the wrong word. AIPAC IS problematic, and I even know Orthodox Jews who are disturbed by them.

Yet despite my disagreements with them, and their vehement attacks on ANY criticism of Israeli policies (Like the Xtian Right on any GOPer who DARES suggest MAYBE women have a right to choose), I do kind of understand their position.  That is, the anti-Semites will use ANY opening, any failure to attack Israel in particular and Jews in general…and they are not wrong in that. I am OPENLY critical of Israel, yet I am attacked and vilified because I don’t call for it to be turned to a plain of glass by thermonuclear mega-tonnage.

I believe Liberal supporters of Israel need to shake ourselves loose of the Likudniks (I like that better than Likudists) so that America’s policy toward Israel is one that ensures Israel’s safety while at the same time restricts adventurism and blatantly arrogant behavior.  Look how the Likudniks attacked Ariel Sharon, of all people, for removing settlements. 

The only good thing I can say about Sharon is that he was equally willing to be a bastard toward settlers standing in the way of his political goals as he was toward non-Israelis.

The creeping, growing influence of the Likudniks is very disturbing.  Many of them advocate policies that ARE clearly illegal and violent and are just plain stupid and inflamatory—like those who want to see the Dome of the Rock torn down. They are no different than the Taliban destroying a 1300 year old priceless Buddha as an “idol” in Afghanistan.  The WORST thing for Israel is if that jackass, Netanyahu, gets back into power.

The Likud and Hamas are like Northern Ireland 30 years ago.  They are so locked up in their hate and their certainty that God is on their side that they are willing to turn their world into carrion.

The problem here is that nobody here is willing to accept that BOTH sides are RIGHT and BOTH sides are WRONG—like most wars.

As a Jewish man, I have no more in common with Benyamin Netanyahu than Albert Schweitzer or Marlene Dietrich had with Germans Nazis. (not that I’m another Schweitzer, and CERTAINLY no Dietrich)

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By cyrena, October 10, 2007 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

#106128 by Inherit The Wind

Hi ITW…
Re: That “Prophacy” thing. (and the Ben Franklin letter)
Thanks for sharing your research on it. I was just about to offer to try and search it out, just because I’m working with that time period anyway, on a “Race and Law” special topics course. (which covers pre-colonial through the Civil War).

BUT, you’ve already done the work, and I thank you for it. I’m taking it to be the forgery that you’ve clearly explained it to be. Thanks again. (It is truly helpful)

Tony, #106147

Thank you as well. I appreciate the link to Rabbi Michael Lerner’s tikkun community, not for myself, (I’m working on becoming an atheist – just way too much religious stuff going on for me – has me creeped out of my skin) but I can still do the spiritual stuff on my own, and I have several colleagues who will especially appreciate the link as a personal and academic resource. So, I’ve shared it with them.

Meantime, how did you all manage this?
•  ITW,
With the hatemongers fairly well identified and quarantined, we can have a worthwhile conversation.

Like, how did you quarantine them? Can I send you a list for others? (I especially like your promise to ‘exterminate’ every last one of them - made my day today);)


Baldwin: #105995 by Baldwin

•  Aren’t people within the government like Wolfowitz, Feith and Pearle considered part of the Israel lobby?  What about the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans I read so much about?  Don’t many of those government figures get support from AIPAC?  Now they have left government and gone to work for think-tanks again, covering their tracks.  The reviewer made no mention of this kind of cross-pollination between government officials and groups such as AIPAC.  It is not just these organizations and lobbying, it is the people they support who become part of the government.  As I see it, these Likudniks (the term I prefer to neocon or zionist) served as willing enablers for Bush and Cheney’s imperialism and thievery.

Thank you for pointing this out. Your slight ‘confusion’ is what I believe has really created so many of the problems, and allowed for so much –disinformation- to be created. It’s ALL ABOUT THE LANGUAGE!!!

Neoconners (that’s what I call them) AIPAC, (the Lobby) and all the rest have been ‘interchanged’ in the discourse, (cross-pollination, what an excellent new word for me to consider in the social sciences), and it means that intelligent (and less than) people don’t even really know what (or WHO) they’re talking about to each other, when we’re needing to talk about this stuff!! Throw in the dumbing-down of Americans at large, and the new wave of totally ignorant ideology that has swept through with the Christian Right, and add to that the standard anti-Semitism, anti-African, anti-Asian, and Anti-everybody else at some points along the 300 plus year history of this ‘nation’ and we get a whole bunch of thoroughly confused people.

I frequently receive some of the most ignorant and racist e-mail propaganda, that I can recognize as such, right off the bat. But obviously, not EVERYBODY does, or it wouldn’t manage to make it’s way through the internet, and wind up in my mailbox, sent from folks who (in my estimation) SHOULD KNOW BETTER!!!

So, this points very much to what I have spent the past several years attempting to correct. It’s become far worse in recent years. So, thanks again for bringing this up.

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By Tony Wicher, October 10, 2007 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Re #105984 by Inherit The Wind on 10/10 at 7:55 am

“But the Israeli middle is just as scared of the Likud Right as the Democrats in Congress are scared of the GOP and Bush…Both are exhibiting genetic spinelessness that prevents them acting in their nation’s BEST INTERESTS!

But as long as the Likudists keep yammering about a “Greater Israel” and “God’s Mandate” and the Hamas keeps yammering for ALL of Palestine, and NEITHER side shuts the yammerers up and shuts down their influence, the state of war will continue.”
—————————————————————————-
ITW,
With the hatemongers fairly well identified and quarantined, we can have a worthwhile conversation.

My first question is whether you would agree that the Israel lobby is supporting what you call the Likudist fundamentalist ideology (which is what I call Zionism) and its policies as implemented by the current Israeli government, particularly the Sharon settlement policy? I’m guessing you would.

My second question is whether you would say that most Jews in the United States are not fundamentalist Zionists and have good reason not to be identified with these objectives or with a state that has these objectives?

Yes, most Jewish Americans are sympathetic with Israel, but they are also mostly liberal democrats and American citizens. They have been subject to political correctness censorship by Zionist commissars more than anybody else. They are afraid to speak out. That is why I recommend they and all concerned people go to http://www.tikkun.org, and join Rabbi Michael Lerner’s Tikkun Community and the Network of Spiritual Progressives. It’s a great resource.

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By Tony Wicher, October 10, 2007 at 7:07 pm Link to this comment

Re #105923 by Flakcatcher on 10/10 at 12:00 am

“We are still here, watching you and yours, Wicher. Probably many others besides myself still have no love of hyenas.  And we won’t just watch forever.”
—————————————————————————-
Yes, and ITW and I will stand shoulder to shoulder fighting Nazis like you until every last one of you is exterminated from the face of the earth.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 10, 2007 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re Benjamin Franklin letter, I’ve been unable to locate it so have no opinion whether it represents colonial American thought, or if it even exists.

Google Benjamin Franklin and Jews…it’s called “The Prophecy”. The story behind it is that Charles Pinckney of South Carolina recorded it in his journal of the Constitutional Convention.  There was no official record as they wanted the proceedings secret, but Pinckney kept a journal.

Supposedly.

It is this journal’s entry that all the anti-semites and neo-nazis cite, and cite as “fact”.  But there’s a problem: Pinckney’s journal doesn’t exist.  He mentioned in a letter in the 1800’s, I believe to John Adams, but it has never been found.

Therefore the “citation” from it is impossible—it must be fraudulent.

It is also totally inconsistent with Franklin who founded an abolitionist society, was a Deist (not quite an Atheist but close), cited the Iroquois Nation Charter’s division of powers as a model for the Constitution, and once gave 5 pounds to help build a synagogue—when 5 pounds was a fortune.

Additionally, analysis of the language of “The Prophesy” is nothing like Franklin’s and uses words in ways he did not—like the use of “homeland”.  In fact, the language is the language of Nazi Germany in the 1930’s, translated into English.

Finally, “The Prophesy” has no provenance prior to 1933.  It is a crude, disgusting forgery concocted by the nazis to win over hate-filled ignorant fools.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 10, 2007 at 2:28 pm Link to this comment
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I’m afraid the beast is showing itself again in typical guise.  And this indication of the facts makes me ‘a nazi’, eh, Wicher?  Typical.  Are you going to whistle up your fellow creatures Howard and ITW to help you suppress this comment?

...........

Nazi, eh, Wicher?

Yes, Butt-Catching, you are. 

“We are still here, watching you and yours, Wicher. Probably many others besides myself still have no love of hyenas.  We won’t just watch forever” 

Where did you get that line, some cheap horror movie?

That crap doesn’t work any more.

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By Sepharad, October 10, 2007 at 2:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Agree with comment that while not in itself anti-Semitic, Mearsheimers & Walt always give each action and issue the darkest possible interpretation of Israel, Israel supporters and AIPAC.

Re Benjamin Franklin letter, I’ve been unable to locate it so have no opinion whether it represents colonial American thought, or if it even exists. However, did find in the city of Charleston’s charter a phrase declaring that the young town “welcomed all Jews and other heritics” to become citizens, perhaps implying that other colonies did not. 

Re Roger Cohen, I’ve never found his column anti-Israel. He disagrees with some of their policies (as do other Jews, including Israelis —one of the few true stereotypes about us is that we argue about our politics and our souls and the meaning of it all, far more than most non-Jews).

Re non-Jewish citizens in Israel, they are not treated as dhimmis (Arab term for truly second-class citizens, i.e., non-Moslems, who pay more taxes and have fewer rights). Arab Israelis vote, have representatives in the Knesset and MAY—but are not forced to—join IDF, which is compulsory for all Jews. The fact that so many Arab Israelis do join IDF says something about the way their feelings for Israel, but even more eloquent is the fact that when land for peace was being considered, and several Arab villages and their lands were proposed to become part of a Palestinian states, the Arab residents affected hotly rejected joining the nascent Palestinian nation. One Arab man shouted, in front of the Knesset, “We’re Israelis! You can’t trade us away!” So the government didn’t.

Re Iraq: Sharon advised Bush to NOT invade Iraq, because the WMDs had long since been moved to Syria, and because to do so would mess up the regional equilibrium. Many of us wished he had gone public with his objections but Sharon did not think he could afford to publicly criticize a major ally.

Re AIPAC’s influence in the U.S.: 1)There are 6 million Jews in the U.S. and 10 million Muslims, many of the latter having large large families and even larger fortunes; 2)Israel has not a drop of oil; 3) the Saudis are delightful best friends of the Bushes, Bechtel and even columnist Maureen Dowd, whose main squeeze was Prince Bandar Sultan while he was in town. As for intense supporters of Israel, spectacularly more of us are liberal inerventionists rather than neocons or religious right nutters. Shalom Aleichem.

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By Baldwin, October 10, 2007 at 9:47 am Link to this comment

The review confused me a little, because it only talked about lobbying organizations.  Aren’t people within the government like Wolfowitz, Feith and Pearle considered part of the Israel lobby?  What about the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans I read so much about?  Don’t many of those government figures get support from AIPAC?  Now they have left government and gone to work for think-tanks again, covering their tracks.  The reviewer made no mention of this kind of cross-pollination between government officials and groups such as AIPAC.  It is not just these organizations and lobbying, it is the people they support who become part of the government.  As I see it, these Likudniks (the term I prefer to neocon or zionist) served as willing enablers for Bush and Cheney’s imperialism and thievery.  I can’t stand Netanyahu and co., I’ll say that without embarrassment.  I preferred Sharon, if you can believe that - he seemed to be practical, if not moral.

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By Baldwin, October 10, 2007 at 9:40 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The review confused me a little, because it only talked about lobbying organizations.  Aren’t people within the government like Wolfowitz, Feith and Pearle considered part of the Israel lobby?  What about the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans I read so much about?  Don’t many of those government figures get support from AIPAC?  The reviewer made no mention of this kind of cross-pollination between government officials and groups such as AIPAC.  It is not just these organizations and lobbying, it is the people they support who become part of the government.  As I see it, these Likudniks (the term I like best) served as willing enablers for Bush and Cheney’s imperialism and thievery.  I can’t stand Netanyahu, I’ll say that without embarrassment. Down with Likud!

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By Inherit The Wind, October 10, 2007 at 8:55 am Link to this comment
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Tony Wicher on 10/09 at 7:05 pm
(261 comments total)

#105864 by Inherit The Wind on 10/09 at 3:25 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Tony, I was with you up to the bolded sentence.  In every age there’s ALWAYS an excuse for anti-semitism…this is just the latest.”

It’s the latest excuse, all right, but Israel is GIVING anti-Semites that excuse by its policy of ethnic cleansing, which the whole state of Israel is founded on. The only way to stop the growth of this cancer of anti-Semitism is to change this policy.

Read Viorst’s article again.  MOST American Jews (and I believe most Jews world-wide) detest the Likudists and the horrible mess they’ve made of things.  They are no better than the Moslem fundies in the Arab world or the Christian fundies (a la Pat Robertson here).  Most want peace, a decent, fair negotiated peace.  It’s come close a few times—the last, best time, a Likudist shithead named Ygl Emir murdered Rabin…

See, if a peace can be negotiated that BOTH sides agree to and live with, then 242 becomes moot.  It’s clear Israel will never comply with 242 100%. 90%, maybe, but 100%, not realistic unless Israel is flat-out conquered.  So “242” becomes the banner to avoid REAL negotiations just like the “Line Item Veto” and the “Balanced Budget Amendment” were the Re-thuglicans way to avoid REAL fiscal responsibility and controls in the 80’s.

Yet if there’s a negotiated settlement that both can live with, then they all can live and prosper.  Between the excesses and atrocities from both sides’ war-parties, it will be a long time before trust builds up enough for decent people to work together again, as they once did.  But it can.  There’s too much profit to be made by both from the efficiencies of trade.

But the Israeli middle is just as scared of the Likud Right as the Democrats in Congress are scared of the GOP and Bush…Both are exhibiting genetic spinelessness that prevents them acting in their nation’s BEST INTERESTS!

But as long as the Likudists keep yammering about a “Greater Israel” and “God’s Mandate” and the Hamas keeps yammering for ALL of Palestine, and NEITHER side shuts the yammerers up and shuts down their influence, the state of war will continue.

This is implicit in Viorst’s article and is his criticism of the book.

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By Robert, October 10, 2007 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

Pre-Packaged Opinions on Israel and Palestine
Jeffrey Goldberg’s Prison

By NORMAN FINKELSTEIN 10/6/07

“Goldberg also alludes to Israeli prisons which had a meaner reputation than Ketziot such as Dahariya and Gaza Beach camp (Ansar Two). It is instructive to juxtapose Goldberg’s description of Gaza Beach camp (Rafiq had been held there before Ketziot) with that of an Israeli journalist, Ari Shavit, who served there:

Goldberg: Here is where young Palestinians were assimilated into the apparatus of occupation, where the Shabak extracted from the Arabs what they could and then trucked them to the desert. The policy of Ansar Two was consistent: Prisoners being prepped for interrogation were made to stand on the basketball court under the sun for four, or five, or six hours. They were forced to raise their arms, and they were not allowed to sit, or drink. When Rafiq’s arms dropped from exhaustion, he was struck.Rafiq was smacked around a bit [during interrogation].

Shavit: Most Palestinians are awaiting trial; most were arrested because they were throwing stones or were said to be members of illegal organizations. Many are in their teens. Among them, here and there, are some boys who are small and appear to be very young.The prison has twelve guard towers. Some Israeli soldiers are struck—and deeply shaken—by the similarity between these and certain other towers, about which they have learned at school. The unjust analogy with those other camps of fifty years ago won’t ago away.And I, too, who have always abhorred this analogy, who have always argued bitterly with anyone who so much as hints at it, I can no longer stop myself. The associations are too strong.Like a believer whose faith is cracking, I go over and over again in my mind the long list of arguments, the list of differences.But then I realize that the problem is not in the similarity-for no one can seriously think that there is a real similarity-but that there isn’t enough lack of similarity. The problem is that the lack of similarity isn’t strong enough to silence once and for all the evil echoes, the accusing images. Maybe the Shin Bet [Shabak] is to blame for this—for the arrests it makes and what it does to those arrested. For almost every night, after it has managed, in its interrogations, to “break” a certain number of young men, the Shin Bet delivers to the [soldiers] a list with the names of the friends of the young men. Then the soldiers go out almost every night to the city and come back with children of fifteen or sixteen years of age. The children grit their teeth. Their eyes bulge from their sockets. In not a few cases they have already been beaten.And soldiers crowd together in the “reception room” to look at them when they undress. To look at them in their underwear, to look at them as they tremble with fear. And sometimes they kick them—one kick more, before they put on their new prison clothes….Or maybe the doctor is to blame.

You wake him up in the middle of the night to treat one of those just brought in—a young man, barefoot, wounded, who looks as if he’s having an epileptic fit, who tells you that they beat him just now on the back and the stomach and over the heart. There are ugly red marks all over his body. The doctor turns to the young man and shouts at him. In a loud, raging voice he says: May you die! And then he turns to me with a laugh: May they all die! Or maybe the screams are to blame. At the end of the watch, you sometimes hear horrible screams from the other side of the fence of the interrogation section,hair-raising human screams. Literally hair-raising.In Gaza our General Security Services [Shabak] therefore amount to a Secret Police, our internment facilities are cleanly run Gulags. Our soldiers are jailers, our interrogators torturers. In Gaza it’s all straightforward and clear. There’s no place to hide.

http://www.counterpunch.org/finkelstein10062007.html

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By Flakcatcher, October 10, 2007 at 1:00 am Link to this comment
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Wicher

“In fact, it is the goal of these nazis to OVERWHELM your site with their posts and limit EVERYONE ELSE’S right of freedom of speech.”

Impartial observers of Truthdigg may care to note the number of entries by Wicher on this thread alone, and he has the gall to talk of others of opinion other than his who ‘OVERWHELM’ and limit . . . well, you read the lie.  His squeal of erzats hurt and justified protest should also be duly appreciated.  And he dare in the same breath mention ‘freedom of speech’.  Chutzpah unlimited.  But then this is probably his profession.

I’m afraid the beast is showing itself again in typical guise.  And this indication of the facts makes me ‘a nazi’, eh, Wicher?  Typical.  Are you going to whistle up your fellow creatures Howard and ITW to help you suppress this comment?

We are still here, watching you and yours, Wicher. Probably many others besides myself still have no love of hyenas.  And we won’t just watch forever.

Perpetrated by any who do not control all our media, buy our politicians, impoverish us by the infliction of financial manipulation and render our populations morons via controling our defenseless infants’ education and said media, the lobby and its influence would be deemed an unprovoked criminal act of international aggression.

Well, since it is germane, I deem the activity of the lobby and its influence an unprovoked act of criminal international aggression.  Considering the facts and reviewing the abysmal state of the world resulting from the lobby’s insidious activities, I imagine I am not alone in this.

Nazi, eh, Wicher?

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By cyrena, October 9, 2007 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment

#105913 by cyrena on 10/09 at 9:44 pm
(1202 comments total)

#105899 by Tony Wicher

Me too Tony. Still a dem, always been a dem, and always issue, never candidate oriented. That’s why I’m now decided on Kucinich. (Gravel or Thompson would do as well)

(I started out with very high hopes for Barack, and I still have them). But for now, I can only support a candidate who will stop the rape of the Middle East, and bring us back to the rule of law, and at least address the reality of where we’re at now, which is a dictatorship, and the Constitution has been totally trashed.

ANY candidate who cannot, or will not address those issues, and promise to end this horrific crimes that have been perpetrated against us, and against the rest of the world, I simply cannot consider.

There’s still time for them to address these things, (and I even sent a letter to Obama, suggesting that he should). But, here again, the political gaming required in the way our system is set up, doesn’t allow him, (or any of them I guess) to be honest.

I guess that’s why I’d never make it as a politician.
Bullshit has to be their stock in trade. And, in better times, that was OK.

But now…there’s no time for that. There’s work to be done, and somebody has to get out there and say that they will do it. Not a single repug will, and so far, Kucinich, Gravel, and Thompson are the only ones who have indicated that they will address this most important issue.

We know that Hillary is perfectly OK with the plan (as it was in the beginning) to permanently occupy Iraq, and she’s apparently in agreement with Cheney for a full-speed ahead attack on Iran.

This is why I cannot consider any of them. If you find out that any of those three have changed their tunes, let me know. (Biden is a no-go as well, since he’s already in full motion plans for the same set-up for Iraq, that Israel has hooked-up during the past 60 years for the illegally occupied terrorites of Palestine).

For now, Kucinich, Gravel, and Thompson are still dems, right?

I’m voting for one of them, (probably Kucinich) even if it allegedly dilutes my vote. After the primaries, we’ll see.

Meantime, I’m still getting the rest of the gang prepared for what might be a necessary emmigration.

(I just posted this same thing on another, -the wrong- thread.) I don’t think I’m crazy, (yet) but in case anyone is wondering, why they see it twice…that’s why.)

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By Tony Wicher, October 9, 2007 at 8:32 pm Link to this comment

Re #105887 by cyrena on 10/09 at 6:27 pm

I’m still a Democrat. It’s the only game in town. In this campaign I’m issue-oriented, not candidate-oriented. I just do everything I can to move the debate in the right direction.

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By Tony Wicher, October 9, 2007 at 8:05 pm Link to this comment

#105864 by Inherit The Wind on 10/09 at 3:25 pm
(Unregistered commenter)


“Tony, I was with you up to the bolded sentence.  In every age there’s ALWAYS an excuse for anti-semitism…this is just the latest.”

It’s the latest excuse, all right, but Israel is GIVING anti-Semites that excuse by its policy of ethnic cleansing, which the whole state of Israel is founded on. The only way to stop the growth of this cancer of anti-Semitism is to change this policy.

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By cyrena, October 9, 2007 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

#105861 by Tony Wicher

TONY,

Thanks for this info. I guess I’m not even impressed that Obama and Edwards have decided to catch-on. Obama should have been there to vote. He wasn’t. Edwards didn’t have a vote. So…more gadfly there.

Obama loses some points for even claiming that the Iranian Revolutionary Force should be designated a terror organization, (I don’t know what the hell he’s thinking these days) and well…Hillary, what did we really expect?

All three of them lost any further consideration from me, when they couldn’t commit to ending the occupation by 2013.

Hurray for Gravel. I’m putting my money on Kucinich, and hoping he’ll pick some good help. Barack may get better with some more time and experience under his belt, but it could also go the other way. US politics is SOOO corrupting.

At least all of the kids and extended family have their passports up to date. I’m the only one who needs to get her act together.

I have images in my mind of making sure that I get everyone else to safer shores, only to find myself left behind, like some old story from the earlier centuries. I know, sounds like theatrics, except that it’s all too real.

Anyway, thanks for the update.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 9, 2007 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The lesson for many people, especially young and politically inexperienced people, is that there is such a thing as anti-Semitism, that it is widespread and growing, and that Jewish conerns about this are entirely valid. However, this does not make criticisms of Israel and Zionism on human rights grounds any less valid, and in fact the validity of these reasons are ultimately the cause of the spread of anti-Semitism.

Tony, I was with you up to the bolded sentence.  In every age there’s ALWAYS an excuse for anti-semitism…this is just the latest.

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By Tony Wicher, October 9, 2007 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

Re #105806 by cyrena on 10/09 at 9:52 am
(1195 comments total)

“Will the coming Clinton Administration do this?

Tony, this is a great piece, and a great question. I don’t have the answer, but I’d have to guess…NO! Now, if we look back on the first Clinton, he DID try to work something out. (with maybe getting Israel to finally recognize International Law, and stop violating it). But at the end of the day, it never happened, and they continue to perpetrate massive Human Right’s violations against an ever increasing number of people. “
==================================================
Cyrena,

Here is some information that throws some light on this question. This is from the Mike Gravel site:

———————————————————
GRAVEL LEADS, OBAMA AND EDWARDS FOLLOW
IN CRITICIZING CLINTON IRAN VOTE
It started with Democratic Presidential Candidate Mike Gravel criticizing Senator Hillary Clinton on live TV. Now, two other candidates are catching on. John Edwards and Barack Obama have both followed Gravel’s lead, making statements that criticize Clinton’s controversial vote on a measure which gives President George W. Bush the cover to attack Iran.

At the September 26 Democratic debate in Hanover, N.H., Gravel first raised the issue, calling the Kyl-Lieberman amendment (S. Amdt. 3017) “a fig leaf to let George Bush go to war with Iran.” The Senator went on to say, “I’m ashamed of you, Hillary, for voting for it. You’re not going to get another shot at this.” You can watch an excerpt of that debate here.

Since then, Edwards and Obama have made similar statements.

While Obama told AP he sees “nothing wrong with identifying the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization,” he admits that the vote “could potentially lead to military action in Iran.” You can read more about that in today’s Union Leader.

Obama was absent the day the vote was cast in the Senate. As a result, he could not vote on it.

Edwards, who calls his vote authorizing the Iraq War a “mistake,” followed Gravel in congratulating Senators Chris Dodd and Joe Biden for voting against the resolution”
———————————————-
So why did Clinton vote for Kyl-Lieberman when none of the other Democratic candidates did? When told by Gravel that she should be ashamed of herself for voting for it, all she did was give him a horse laugh. What an insult! Now every Democratic presidential candidate has joined in condemning her vote. If Bush does strike Iran, it will hang around her neck like political death. And why, I ask again, did she do it? I will tell you what I think. She did it because Dershowitz, AIPAC and the Israel lobby told her to. Gravel isn’t going to be President and has nothing to lose by saying it in the next debate. For that he would deserve the national gadfly award. Maybe Edwards, Obama, Biden, Dodd etc. will all chime in and agree with him. Mission accomplished. Grip of Israel Lobby broken. U.S.-Israel alliance being rationally debated at highest levels.

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By Robert, October 9, 2007 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

Mohammed al-Dura lives on

07/10/2007 By Gideon Levy

The concern Israel demonstrates for the fate of one Palestinian boy touches the heart: Again, note what a fuss is being made about the case of the killing of Mohammed al-Dura. Our heart is impervious to the fate of other children who have been killed.

All of these are tasteless questions designed to divert attention from the truly important issues: According to data collected by human rights group B’Tselem, Israel is responsible for killing more than 850 Palestinian children and teenagers since al-Dura was killed, including 92 in the past year alone. Last October, we killed 31 children in Gaza. This is what should have raised a storm and not the measurements by the former head of the Israel Defense Forces’ Southern Command.

Al-Dura refuses to step down from the stage because he has become an icon of the Palestinian struggle and a symbol of Israeli brutality. A thousand Nahum Shahafs will not succeed in blurring the unequivocal fact that a scandalous killing of children is taking place in the territories.

Even if the director of the Government Press Office, Danny Seaman, is right in determining that the film made by the reliable and experienced French journalist Charles Enderlin was “staged,” and even if he succeeds in clearing Israel from responsibility for this killing, what will we say about the other children who have been killed? That their killing was also “staged?” That the IDF did not kill them through carelessness and contempt for their lives; by being trigger-happy and even acting with premeditation? If Israel were really interested in improving its “public relations,” it would embrace the al-Dura family instead of all the foolish investigations. It would provide compensation to the family and show the world that it is truly and sincerely sorry about the death of one child.

The question of who killed al-Dura is like the question of what Joseph Trumpeldor mumbled before his death. The myth in both cases is already stronger than any investigation. Al-Dura became a symbol because his killing was documented on videotape. All the other hundreds of children were killed without cameras present, so no one is interested in their fate. If there had been a camera in Bushara Barjis’ room in the Jenin refugee camp while she was studying for a pre-matriculation test, we would have a film showing an IDF sniper firing a bullet at her head. If there had been a photographer near Jamal Jabaji from the Askar camp, we would see soldiers emerging from an armored jeep and aiming their weapons at the head of a child who threw stones at them. But these children did not become symbols; there are no stamps bearing their portraits, no streets named after them and no songs composed for them as with al-Dura because they were not filmed at the time of their deaths.

Al-Dura became a symbol because every struggle needs a symbol, a shrine for the masses of dead and the anonymous heroes. The assumption that the IDF soldiers firing at Palestinians at the Netzarim junction killed the boy cradled in his father’s arms exactly seven years ago is the most reasonable one. As far as we can remember, there has been no other case in which Palestinians fired at the IDF and hit a Palestinian child.

But even if there is some doubt, it is certain that the IDF has killed and is killing children. So this ridiculous focus on who killed al-Dura, a question that will never be resolved, is no more than a tempest in a putrid teapot. There should be a tempest, a great and mighty one, but one focused on an entirely different issue: Why is the IDF continuing to kill children at such a frightening pace, and why doesn’t Israel take responsibility for this and compensate the families of those killed? But no one is conducting “investigations” about this.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1253

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