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 Milton Viorst on ‘The Israel Lobby’Posted on Oct 4, 2007
About 30 or so years ago, when I first began to write of my concern that Israel was embarked on a course that would lead only to recurring wars, or perhaps worse, I received a letter from Abraham H. Foxman, then as now the voice of the Anti-Defamation League, admonishing me as a Jew not to wash our people’s dirty linen in public. I still have it in my files. His point, of course, was not whether the washing should be public or private; he did not offer an alternative laundry. His objective was—and remains—to squelch anyone who is critical of Israel’s policies.
In the ensuing years, Foxman and a legion of like-minded leaders, most but not all of them Jewish, have been remarkably successful in suppressing an open and frank debate on Israel’s course. In view of Israel’s impact on America’s place in the world, it is astonishing how little discussion its role has generated. As a practical matter, the subject has been taboo. John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, professors of political science at the University of Chicago and Harvard’s John F. Kennedy School of Government, respectively, have challenged this taboo in their new book, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy.” Foxman, in an effort to discredit them, has written a rejoinder in his book “The Deadliest Lies: The Jewish Lobby and the Myth of Jewish Control.”
The Israel Lobby
By John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 496 pages
The Deadliest Lies
By Abraham H. Foxman Palgrave Macmillanm, 256 pages
The controversy over Mearsheimer and Walt’s views has been going on since March of last year, when they first presented their argument in the London Review of Books. In their essay, they contended that support of the magnitude that the United States gives Israel might have been justified during the Cold War but is not defensible, “on either strategic or moral grounds,” under the conditions that currently prevail in the Middle East. America’s unconditional backing, they argued, is harmful to its own interests and possibly even to Israel’s, and it is made possible only by the influence of the Israel lobby over U.S. foreign policy. The article touched a sensitive chord among many of Israel’s defenders, generating a furor. Now Mearsheimer and Walt have written a book which, while more comprehensive at nearly 500 pages, recapitulates the original themes. Foxman acknowledges basing his book-length reply on the article, so impatient was he to proclaim its authors guilty of “distortions, omissions and errors.” The late social critic Irving Howe, deeply committed to Israel himself, used to argue that Jewish leaders like Foxman depend for their status on ceaselessly trumpeting the dangers faced by the Jewish people, and particularly by Israel, from a hostile world. These leaders, Howe insisted, exploit the scars which inquisitions, pogroms and the Holocaust have left on the collective Jewish psyche, scars which distort Jewish political judgment. Foxman is no doubt sincere in agonizing over the dangers that Jews have historically faced. But Howe argued that these dangers had become a vested interest for the leaders of Jewish organizations, making an open and honest debate all but impossible in American Jewish circles and in America’s political culture generally. Foxman does not quite accuse Mearsheimer and Walt—though other disapproving critics do—of being anti-Semitic. But he uses intimidating language nonetheless, pointing to a “level of quiet, subtle bigotry—an attitude that may not run to the actual hatred of Jews but that assumes that Jews are somehow different, less respectable, less honorable, more treacherous, more devious than other people. ... [I]t’s only natural that people who exhibit this kind of bias against Jews should look a little askance at the special relationship that exists between American Jews and the nation of Israel.” One can admit the legitimacy of Foxman’s warnings on anti-Semitism and still ask for the evidence of “subtle bigotry” in the Mearsheimer-Walt text. I found none, unless the reader accepts the premise that anti-Semitism is present in any scrutiny of relations between the U.S. government and American Jews, or the Israel lobby. Foxman says the authors’ objective is to make Israel into a “pariah” state, though nothing that they write reveals such a goal. On the contrary, Mearsheimer and Walt recognize lobbies—all lobbies—as a legitimate part of the American political system, existing to shape or shift policy in the interest of the various causes they serve. Foxman, backed by quotes from such dubious authorities as Dennis Ross, an ex-U.S. ambassador and a vigorous defender of official Israeli views, seeks to attribute something sinister to their motives. Without question, Mearsheimer and Walt have written less a work of political science than a brief for their position. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as they maintain the standards of scholarship incumbent on their craft, which exhaustive footnotes of more than a hundred pages suggest strongly that they do. Some of their critics, ill at ease with the charge of anti-Semitism or “subtle bigotry,” have accused them of being “unbalanced,” in omitting the sins of “the other side.” By their nature, briefs are not balanced, but in this case the accusation seems doubly contrived. Assuming that the Palestinians or radical Muslims are “the other side,” the critics can scarcely claim that the literature is not already overflowing with negative evaluations, readily at hand in any library or bookstore. The objective of Mearsheimer and Walt is to break new scholarly ground, which is what academics are supposed to do. Their findings will come as no surprise to those familiar with American political institutions, but, judging by the reverberations of the Foxman line, they have ignited panic by daring to put so much of the available material on the public record. Elsewhere: . CommentsAre you a Truthdig member yet? Login now, or register with Truthdig. |
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By bardofbyte, December 11, 2007 at 7:38 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
While much is made of the seven hundred thousand or so arabs who were displaced in 1948, little is mentioned about the eight hundred fifty thousand
Report thisMizrachi Jews who had to flee arab persecution.
Waves of pogroms were carried out from the 1920s to
the 1960s in Arab lands. In Hebron in 1929 all the Jews who had been living there for centuries were forced out. In Iraq thousands were put in concentration camps in 1940. (Yes there were concentration camps in Arab countries.
The Irony is that Arab persecution helped populate
Israel. Six hundred thousand settled in Israel.
Unlike the Arabs who now call themselves Palestinian
they were not made stateless and confined to refugee
camps, They were given full Israeli citizenship along
with the Arabs who remained in Israel
By 1drees, November 27, 2007 at 4:03 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
JabberNow :
Boy do you Jabber and you Jabber senseless LIES as per expectation from an Israeli sympathiser. coz most of them are like that.
Frist of all YOUR ZIONIST MSM does its best to WiPE OUT all signs of ISRAELI atrocities so there never is much sympathies or support to the Palestinians (and even if there is (like Rachel Corrie) then Israelis just simply KILL it. So either the support gets killed or the news gets killed.
Speaking of Killing have you ever acknowledged the ISRAELI arsenal? Most Israeli’s shut up like they dont even have a tongue when the words NUCLEAR BOMBS are mentionned, all except the only truthful man in ISRAEL Mr Mordechai Vanunu and he pays to this day of his truthfulness.
BTW you have more than 300 NUKES undeclared and denied so far, on the record by even the PM of Israel, ( TALK ABOUT LIARS) and 300+ nukes is way more than anyone needs and then you say that your INNOCENT LITTLE STATE ( aka shitty little state) is peaceful and and if so then why develope nukes secretly and then why keep denying them to this day proving yourselves REALLY BIG LIARS. (just to keep recieving American AID?)
Israel is alive thanks to the American Blessings, Israel was always helped out by USA unconditionally due to the ISRAELI lobby’s blackmail of the politicians, in times of Conflict USA has always provided logistics and intelligence UNCONDITIONALLY, or rather USA has been under Israeli conditions since long, like in a recent conflict with HAMAS when the zionist stooge GWB said to stop the conflict and your PM said will end it when HAMAS is dead and later after losing about 30 tanks ( which would of course be replaced by the next years American Military AID) Israelis decided to quit and took them about a year to admit that they been beaten, I MEAN SUCH LIARS THAT TAKES THEM 1 year just to admit what everyone was saying from the start and that too after USA flew in EMERGENCY SHIPMENTS OF ARMAMENTS as per ISRAELI ORDERS as soon as demanded and many times.
AS for the MODEL Israeli society maybe you should look into the Abuse of the sex-workers that are in Tel-Aviv. OR THE HATRED amongst the various kinds of jews within Israel.
Shalolm!
BTW i just saw the term “sworn enemies of Israel” i just wanted to say that i am no such thing ( however i do not fear being labelled as one coz as per their habits they are either bound to do that or declare me an anti-semite too [Although they themselves are ANTI-HUMAN]) i only critisize so as to correct them into a shape that they will be better, i only Point out the mistakes they been making for too too long AND YET THEY COMPLETELY FAILED TO NOTICE OR ACKNOWLEDGE IT ALL. an example is JIMMY CARTER who during his tenure favored Israel very well but as soon as he said one word against their wishes recently all his services were instantly wasted, NOW every ZIONIST/ISRAELI calls him a bad name and many call him “anti-semite”
Also I note that these days everyone is saying that SHARON advised not to attack IRAQ as WMDs had been moved to SYRIA, ( myself a reader of Israeli papers too , never saw that before) Could it be that after IRAN they want SYRIA to be the CHASER? and now they are slowly moving towards that ...
Report thisBy 1drees, November 27, 2007 at 3:07 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
#107443 by Hawkwind on 10/16 at 7:42 am
“Baloney. If—as was long ago proposed—the Jewish state had been established in Uganda, the Twin Towers still would be rubble.”
============================================
YEAH! true, Larry Silverstein the Jew might still want top collect $#3 Billion in claims even then.
seems Hawkwind is just pure WIND from the rear
Report thisBy Robert, October 18, 2007 at 7:47 pm #
Top IDF officer censured over use of ‘human shields’ in Nablus
By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent
Israel Defense Forces Brigadier-General Yair Golan was censured on Thursday for allowing soldiers to use Palestinian civilians as “human shields” during military operations in the West Bank.
IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi decided to reprimand Golan - who formerly served as commander of forces in the West Bank - following a probe by the IDF’s criminal investigation division into the army’s use of human shields during raids in the town of Nablus.
Golan was the most senior officer to be questioned in the probe, which the army launched last March after IDF soldiers were filmed forcing a young Palestinian man at gunpoint to lead them from house to house during an arrest sweep in Nablus.
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The army said in a statement that Golan would be passed over for promotion for at least the next nine months.
In a landmark 2005 decision, Israel’s Supreme Court banned the use of
Palestinian civilians as human shields in general, and specifically outlawed taking Palestinian civilians on searches. Before the decision, the army would often have Palestinian civilians knock on the doors of houses where militants were believed to be hiding and ask them to surrender.
The army said the practice - known as the neighbor procedure - prevented
violence by encouraging militants to give themselves up. But in August 2002, a 19-year-old Palestinian student was killed in a gunfight that erupted after he was forced to knock on the door of a building where a Hamas fugitive was hiding.
Since the Supreme Court decision, Palestinians have accused the army of
continuing the practice, but proof was elusive. Human rights groups say the use of civilians in military operations has dropped sharply since the Supreme Court ban, but has not disappeared.
The Israeli rights group B’tselem, which monitors human rights violations in the West Bank, on Thursday praised the army’s decision to reprimand Golan.
“We welcome the fact that the army took this seriously and investigated the case and took action,” B’tselem spokeswoman Sarit Michaeli said. “Golan was a senior officer who broke the law, and we hope that this will send a message to officers that they cannot give orders like this to soldiers.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/914568.html
Report thisBy Shecky, October 17, 2007 at 4:10 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Shecky,
“Peaceful process” - what? Whether they called themselves “Palestinians” or not, there were still some 800,000 Arab people expelled from their homes within months of the time the partition was granted by the U.N., and the process by which this was done was anything but peaceful.
This Nakba denial is no better than Holocaust denial. Israel must indeed take responsibility for what it has done and still is doing, instead of blaming everything on “terrorists”.
----------------------------------------
Tony, You are very quick to leave out some facts!
The UN partition plan included a two state solution!
That is what is meant by peaceful, you know, the UN agreement.
What are you talking about? The newly formed “modern state of Israel” did not know they were going to be attacked by the Arabs.
The Arab refugees were roughly 725,000 people who fled because
Report thisof the war that the Arab states – not the Palestinian Arabs—started.
The Arab states - dictatorships all - did not want a non-Arab state in
the Middle East. The rulers of eight Arab countries whose populations
vastly outnumbered the Jewish settlers in the Turkish Empire, initiated
the war with simultaneous invasions of the newly created state of Israel
on three fronts. Nascent Israel begged for peace and offered friendship
and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arab dictators rejected this offer
and answered it with a war of annihilation against the Jews. The war
failed. But the state of war has continued uninterruptedly because of
the failure of the Arab states –Saudi Arabia and Iraq in particular – to
sign a peace treaty with Israel. To this day, the Arab states and the
Palestinians refer to the failure of their aggression and the survival of
Israel as an-Nakba – the catastrophe.
Had there been no Arab aggression, no war, and no invasion by
Arab armies whose intent was overtly genocidal, not only would there
have been no Arab refugees, but there would have been a state of
Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza since 1948.
By Tony Wicher, October 16, 2007 at 10:47 pm #
#107534 by Shecky on 10/16 at 1:17 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
“The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands. It was
created out of the Ottoman Empire, ruled for four hundred years by the Turks who lost it when they were defeated in World War I. There
were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians.”
--------------------------------------------------
Shecky,
“Peaceful process” - what? Whether they called themselves “Palestinians” or not, there were still some 800,000 Arab people expelled from their homes within months of the time the partition was granted by the U.N., and the process by which this was done was anything but peaceful.
This Nakba denial is no better than Holocaust denial. Israel must indeed take responsibility for what it has done and still is doing, instead of blaming everything on “terrorists”.
Report thisBy Shecky, October 16, 2007 at 1:17 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
The Arab version of the tragic fate of Arab refugees who fled
Report thisfrom the Palestine Mandate before and during the 1948 war and from
Israel immediately after the war, has so thoroughly dominated the
thinking of even well-educated historians, commentators, journalists
and politicians, that it is almost a given that the creation of the State
of Israel caused the flight of almost a million hapless, helpless and
hopeless Arab refugees. Israel caused the problem and thus Israel must
solve the problem.
This assertion, although viscerally engaging and all but canonized
by the anti-Israel propaganda which makes it the core of its narratives
of the Middle East conflict, is unequivocally and totally false.
Origins of the Problem
The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by
the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands. It was
created out of the Ottoman Empire, ruled for four hundred years by
the Turks who lost it when they were defeated in World War I. There
were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people
claiming to be Palestinians. There were Arabs who lived in the region
of Palestine who considered themselves Syrians. It was only after
World War I that the present states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq
were also created – and also created artificially out of the Turkish
Empire by the British and French victors. Jordan was created on about
80 percent of the Palestine Mandate, which was originally designated
by the League of Nations as part of the Jewish homeland. Since then,
Jews have been prohibited from owning property there. Two-thirds
of its citizens are Palestinian Arabs, but it is ruled by a Hashemite
monarchy.
By Robert, October 16, 2007 at 12:28 pm #
October 16, 2007
Follow the Leader
The Open Secret About the Israel Lobby
By PAUL FINDLEY
“There is an open secret in Washington. I learned it well during my 22-year tenure as a member of the U.S. House of Representatives. All members swear to serve the interests of the United States, but there is an unwritten and overwhelming exception: The interests of one small foreign country almost always trump U.S. interests. That nation of course is Israel.
Both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue give priority to Israel over America. Those on Capitol Hill are pre-primed to roar approval for Israeli actions whether right or wrong, instead of at least fussing first and then caving. The White House sometimes puts up a modest and ineffective show of resistance before it follows Israel’s lead.
In 2002, President Bush publicly ordered Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon to end a bloody, destructive rampage through the Palestinian West Bank. He wilted just as publicly when he received curt word from Sharon that Israeli troops would not withdraw and would continue their military operations. A few days later President Bush invited Sharon to the White House where he saluted him as a “man of peace.”
I had similar experiences in the House of Representatives. On several occasions, colleagues told me privately that they admired what I was trying to do in Middle East policy reform but could not risk pro-Israel protest back home by supporting my positions.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/findley10162007.html
Report thisBy Robert, October 16, 2007 at 12:25 pm #
October 16, 2007
Follow the Leader
The Open Secret About the Israel Lobby
By PAUL FINDLEY
(PART II)
“The pro-Israel lobby is not one organization orchestrating U.S. Middle East policy from a backroom in Washington. Nor is it entirely Jewish. It consists of scores of groups—large and small—that work at various levels. The largest, most professional, and most effective is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. Many pro-Israel lobby groups belong to the Christian Right.
The recently released book, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy,” co-authored by distinguished professors John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard, offers hope for constructive change. It details the damage to U.S. national interests caused by the lobby for Israel. These brave professors render a great service to America, but their theme, expressed in a published study paper a year ago, is already under heavy, vitriolic attack.
They are unjustly accused of anti-Semitism, the ultimate instrument of intimidation employed by the lobby. A common problem: Under pressure, the Chicago Council on Global Affairs withdrew an invitation for the authors to speak about their book. Council president Marshall Bouton explained ruefully that the invitation posed “a political problem” and a need “to protect the institution” from those who would be angry if the authors appeared.
I know what it is like to be targeted in this way. In the last years of my long service in Congress, I spoke out, making many of the points now presented in the Mearsheimer-Walt book. In 1980, my opponent charged me with anti-Semitism, and money poured into his campaign fund from every state in the Union. I prevailed that year but two years later lost by a narrow margin. In 1984, Sen. Charles Percy, then chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee and an occasional critic of Israel, was defeated. Leaders of the Israel lobby claimed credit for defeating both Percy and me, claims that strengthened lobby influence in the years that followed.
The result is that Members of Congress today loudly reward Israel as it violates international law and peace agreements, lures America into costly wars, and subjects millions of Palestinians under its rule to apartheid-like conditions because they are not Jewish.
It is time to call politicians to account for their undying allegiance to a foreign state. Let the Mearsheimer-Walt book be a clarion that bestirs the American people to political action and finally brings fundamental change to both Capitol Hill and the White House.
Citizen participation in public policy development is a hallmark of our proud democracy. But the pro-Israel groups subvert democracy when they engage in smear campaigns that intimidate and silence critics. America badly needs a civilized discussion of the damaging role of Israel in U.S. policy formulation.”
Paul Findley represented Illinois in the U.S. House of Representatives for 22 years. He is the author of They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront the Israel Lobby.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, October 16, 2007 at 12:04 pm #
Re #107098 by Howard on 10/14 at 6:29 pm
(78 comments total)
“The decision to partition Palestine was not determined solely by demographics; it was based on the conclusion that the territorial claims of Jews and Arabs were irreconcilable, and that the most logical compromise was the creation of two states. Ironically, that same year, 1947, the Arab members of the United Nations supported the partition of the Indian sub-continent and the creation of the new, predominantly Muslim state of Pakistan”
Report this---------------------------------------------------
What’s ironic? Unlike the partition of India, the Hindus and the Muslims agreed to it. The problem with the Palestine partition is that the people whose land was being partiioned were not asked and never agreed to it. The U.N. may have thought it was “the most logical solution” then, but 60 years of conflict until now proves they were wrong. Then, and even now, the solution is reunification, reconciliation and multiethnic democracy, not partition.
By Jabbernow, October 16, 2007 at 8:10 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Well we see once again Roberta is posting the usual BS only this time he uses Finkelstein as a source for Haaretz.
Of course Roberta fails to mention in “Israel” freedom to critisize the government is a fundamental right of any Democracy. Israel is the only Democracy in the Middle East, unlike the Arab street where “freedom of speech” is forbidden especially anything critical of the government or Islam.
Reuters, a British News orgainization which has the positively worst bias against Israel so this is not surprising coming from Roberta. In fact, the BBC and Reuters have in the past been so fast in critisizing Israel they have had to make retractions because of false news reporting.
Report thisBy Hawkwind, October 16, 2007 at 7:42 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Tim Rutten, LA Times: “Anyone familiar with the tortured history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will have a hard time recognizing the history Mearsheimer and Walt rehearse. Every hoary old Israeli atrocity tale is trotted out, and the long story of Palestinian terrorism is rendered entirely as a reaction to Israeli oppression. The failure of every peace negotiation is attributed to Israeli deviousness under the shield of the American Israel lobby. There is nothing here of Palestinian corruption, division and duplicity or even of this unhappy people’s inability to provide a reliable secular partner with whom peace can be negotiated.
At times, the authors simply contradict themselves, asserting—rather remarkably—at one point that the United States has nothing to fear from a nuclear-armed Iran and, at another, that the dangerous prospect of a nuke-equipped Tehran is the Israel lobby’s fault. Similarly, they write, Al Qaeda would hammer its swords into ploughshares and Osama bin Laden would lay down with the lamb if only the United States would come out from under Israel’s thrall and create by coercion a Palestinian state.
Baloney. If—as was long ago proposed—the Jewish state had been established in Uganda, the Twin Towers still would be rubble.”
David Remnick, The New Yorker: “Where many accounts identify Osama bin Laden’s primary grievances with American support of “infidel” authoritarian regimes in Islamic lands, Mearsheimer and Walt align his primary concerns with theirs: America’s unwillingness to push Israel to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. (It doesn’t matter that Israel and the Palestinians were in peace negotiations in 1993, the year of the first attack on the World Trade Center, or that during the Camp David negotiations in 2000 bin Laden’s pilots were training in Florida.) Mearsheimer and Walt give you the sense that, if the Israelis and the Palestinians come to terms, bin Laden will return to the family construction business.
Steve Huntley, Chicago Sun Times: “The two go to lengths to try to rebut any suggestion of anti-Semitism in their criticism of the American Israeli Political Action Committee and other pro-Israel groups. But you can’t read The Israel Lobby without realizing that whenever two interpretations exist for some action by Israel or its supporters, Mearsheimer and Walt automatically default to the darker view.”
William Grimes, The New York Times: “The general tone of hostility to Israel grates on the nerves, however, along with an unignorable impression that hardheaded political realism can be subject to its own peculiar fantasies. Israel is not simply one country among many, for example, just as Britain is not. Americans feel strong ties of history, religion, culture and, yes, sentiment, that the authors recognize, but only in an airy, abstract way.
Mark LeVine, Asia Times: “Mearsheimer and Walt seem to know little about the Middle East, Israel’s role in US foreign policy, and what are core US goals and strategic interests in the region. They argue that this is a case of the “tail wagging the dog” - a small client state and its allies in the US leading the US government to engage in policies that are manifestly against its interests because of undue political power. But this is nonsense. In fact, it is the other way around.”
Richard Cohen, The Washington Post: “In the end, Mearsheimer and Walt disappoint. They had an observation worth making and a position worth debating. But their argument is so dry, so one-sided—an Israel lobby that leads America around by the nose—they suggest that not only do they not know Israel, they don’t know America, either.”
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/criti ques/new/Reviewers_Reject_The_Israel_Lobby.asp
Report thisBy Robert, October 16, 2007 at 7:21 am #
It’s always worth listening to Dugard: he’s smart and he’s honest
Envoy urges UN to quit Quartet over lack of regard for human rights
10.15.2007 | Ha’aretz
By Reuters
The United Nations should pull out of the Quartet of Middle East mediators unless the group starts taking Palestinian human rights seriously, a UN envoy said on Monday.
John Dugard, the UN special rapporteur on human rights for the Palestinian territories, told the BBC the world body “does itself little good” by remaining in the Quartet group of the United States, European Union, Russia and the United Nations.
“In my most recent report to the General Assembly...I will suggest that the secretary general withdraw the UN from the Quartet, if the Quartet fails to have regard to the human rights situation in the Palestinian territories,” Dugard said.
Dugard, who is due to present the report next month, could not immediately be reached for comment.
The South African, who has served in the independent post since 2001, said Israel Defense Forces checkpoints in the occupied West Bank were meant to divide the territory into “cantons” and “make the life of Palestinians as miserable as possible”.
The IDF says its network of West Bank checkpoints, which Palestinians call collective punishment, are necessary to stop suicide bombers.
Dugard’s comments echoed searing allegations from a former UN Middle East envoy who said in June after leaving the post that UN policy in the region had failed because it was subservient to U.S. and Israeli interests.
Alvaro de Soto upbraided the Quartet for failing the Palestinians and also urged the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to “seriously reconsider” continued UN membership in the group.
Dugard said the Quartet was “heavily influenced” by the United States, and criticized Western powers for backing Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah faction while maintaining a crippling boycott of Islamist group Hamas.
“The international community has given its support almost completely to one faction, the Fatah faction,” he said. “That’s not the role the UN should take.”
Dugard was skeptical that the U.S.-sponsored peace conference set to take place in Maryland next month would succeed in bridging Israeli and Palestinian differences on creating a Palestinian state.
He warned of “serious consequences” if expectations are not met, raising the possibility of a third Palestinian uprising, or intifada, against Israel.
“Inevitably in a military occupation, there are likely to be those engaged in resistance,” he said, noting that history may treat those deemed “terrorists” differently .
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11& ar=1261
Report thisBy Mo, October 16, 2007 at 6:45 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)
Report this18 August 1988
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
“Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which
is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have
received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are
believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt
you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to
you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are
found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with
men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with
poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the
prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed.” (Al-Imran -
verses 109-111).
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it
obliterated others before it” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
“The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little,
to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others.” (Sheikh Amjad al-
Zahawi, of blessed memory).
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
Introduction
Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and
support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and
supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws - everlasting
prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last. Hereafter:
O People:
Out of the midst of troubles and the sea of suffering, out of the palpitations of faithful
hearts and cleansed arms; out of the sense of duty, and in response to Allah’s command,
the call has gone out rallying people together and making them follow the ways of
Allah, leading them to have determined will in order to fulfill their role in life, to
overcome all obstacles, and surmount the difficulties on the way. Constant preparation
has continued and so has the readiness to sacrifice life and all that is precious for the
sake of Allah.
Thus it was that the nucleus (of the movement) was formed and started to pave its way
through the tempestuous sea of hopes and expectations, of wishes and yearnings, of
troubles and obstacles, of pain and challenges, both inside and outside.
By Robert, October 15, 2007 at 1:56 pm #
http://www.worldpeaceforum.ca/live/media/nurit-pele d-elhanan-on-racism-and-education
Nurit Peled-Elhanan on Racism and Education
By Kitty Cresswell-Riol [June 27-2006]
VANCOUVER - In a session of the International Peace Education Conference at the World Peace Forum today, Nurit Peled-Elhanan warned of racism embedded within educational textbooks distributed in Israeli schools.
Nurit, an Israeli lecturer in language and education at Hebrew University, was awarded the 2001 Sakharov Prize for Human Rights by the European Parliament. But foremost, she is a mother of a 13-year-old daughter killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber. She has also become an outspoken peace activist and member of the Families Forum, a group committed to stopping the war in the Middle East. Nurit sees education as the channel through which a culture of peace can be created.
Nurit’s presentation highlighted racism instilled within Israeli school literature against Palestinians and the way in which they are not shown as modern, productive human beings - only as stereotypical scarf-wearing Arabs, masked terrorists, or third world ‘Oxfam images’ and refugees.
She discussed how, in educational literature, the world outside Israel is described as split between Jews and non-Jews and that by generalizing the non-Jewish population of Israel and Palestine as “Arabs” and referring to their situation as “a problem,” through photographs and text, they have been impersonalized and simplified.
As examples, Nurit presented maps, some of which leave Palestinian areas empty of geographical symbols as though they contain no data, historical or social, and illustrations of distorted facts to exaggerate particular points.
Nurit also discussed the use of materials in texts that distort records of massacres and consistently glorify Israeli troops. She noted the utilization of biblical phrases within geography textbooks to justify and legitimize Israeli occupation.
Nurit’s work remains controversial within Israel. She nevertheless, continues to lecture and has been invited to speak to the Israeli Ministry of Education in July.
Report thisBy Robert, October 15, 2007 at 1:07 pm #
JabberJabber...You are NOT impressing anyone here! Keep whining till the cows come home!
Report thisBy Jabbernow, October 15, 2007 at 11:24 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I watched the video with Galloway interviewing Ilan Pappe. So what! Ilan Pappe said outright there were good things that came from Zionism or did your fragile mind miss it? I never heard anything about Jewish history only his opinion on ethnic cleansing. You want history!
Report thisAlong with Chrisianity and Islam, Judaism is one of the three major monotheistic religions of the world. Israel, a nation, or people, that traces its origins back at least 3,000 years to Abraham, the patriarch who is considered the father of the Jewish faith.
ANCIENT ISRAEL DWELLED IN THE LAND OF Palestine
in the Middle East, and the modern state of Israel, founded in 1948 represents a return of the people to a homeland that had been under domination for more than 20 centuries. (How far back in history do you want to go Robert)
With the passing of centuries any major religion develops within it a great deal of variety and numerous points of view; Islam is divided into serveral competing factions, Christianity is made up of many denominations. So, too, Judaism in the modern period is not uniform.
Gee I wonder what that means!
Hey lets see if Galloway and Pappe can discuss the other side. How about the rise of Islam in the 5th century? Do you know history? Tell us all about how the Arabs enslaved, ethnic cleansed, killed, raped and took Black slaves while burning down churches and putting up mosques in their place.
Robert you whine like a little bitch!
By Jabbernow, October 15, 2007 at 10:26 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Robert, I am not a hardcore Zionist and you still haven’t impressed anyone here but yourself! Even the Palestinians acknowledge Res.242. Apparently you would rather not discuss it because you know nothing about the peace process. All you know is the word Zionist. Tell me genius where did it come from? Who coined it?
Report thisBy Robert, October 15, 2007 at 10:02 am #
Hey JabberJabber...since you are bored and don’t think too much of Ilan Pappe, the Israeli historian...just keep on jabbering…
Just like I stated “Fanatic Hardcore Zionists” won’t like what he had to say about Israel’s Racism!
Report thisBy Jabbernow, October 15, 2007 at 8:30 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Hey Robert! this really isn’t impressing in the least!
Does Amira Hass mention one way to resolve the conflict? Does she take into consideration the Israeli’s have tried to make peace? Does she consider Hamas an unwilling peace partner or the fact the PA still have in their Charter to destroy Israel? Its funny because Amira Hass in her letter tells us all at the end of her article about being an Iraeli most of all. How can she realistically accomplish this if there is no Israel? Do you understand the words “from the river to the sea”? If you do then tell us all what it means!
This is all redundant BS! I have read these posts, Non Credo and Cyrene use this forum for nothing but calling people stupid or putting someone down who have an opionion other than their own. Real intellectuals here! Instead they only show their immaturity!
I have not witnessed one of you discuss a viable resolution to peace. And Robert, If I show you links to pro-Israel websites how does this convince you? It doesn’t any more than you posting links to “George Galloway” or Amira Hass!
Why not start off with answering this question. What is it you know about resolution 242? Feel free to post a link for 242. Lets read it together and see what comes up! This is something even Amira Hass can do!
Report thisBy Robert, October 15, 2007 at 5:51 am #
Amira Hass:
Life Under Israeli Occupation - By an Israeli
Jewish journalist Amira Hass doesn’t merely report on the experiences of Palestinians on the West Bank - she shares their lives
by Robert Fisk
“Whenever Amira Hass tries to explain her vocation as a journalist, she recalls a seminal moment in her mother’s life. Hannah Hass was being marched from a cattle train to the concentration camp of Bergen-Belsen on a summer’s day in 1944. “She and the other women had been 10 days in the train from Yugoslavia. They were sick and some were dying. Then my mother saw these German women looking at the prisoners, just looking. This image became very formative in my upbringing, this despicable ‘looking from the side’. It’s as if I was there and saw it myself.” Amira Hass stares at you through wire-framed glasses as she speaks, anxious to make sure you have understood the importance of the Jewish Holocaust in her life.
In her evocative book Drinking the Sea at Gaza, Hass eloquently explains why she, an Israeli journalist, went to live in Yasser Arafat’s tiny, garbage-strewn statelet. “In the end,” she wrote, “my desire to live in Gaza stemmed neither from adventurism nor from insanity, but from that dread of being a bystander, from my need to understand, down to the last detail, a world that is, to the best of my political and historical comprehension, a profoundly Israeli creation. To me, Gaza embodies the entire saga of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; it represents the central contradiction of the state of Israel – democracy for some, dispossession for others; it is our exposed nerve.”
Now living in the West Bank town of Ramallah – with the Palestinians whom many of her people regard as “terrorists”, listening to the Palestinian curses heaped upon “the Jews” for their confiscations and dispossessions and murder squads and settlements – Amira Hass is among the bravest of reporters, her daily column in Ha’aretz ablaze with indignation at the way her own country, Israel, is mistreating and killing the Palestinians. Only when you meet her, however, do you realize the intensity – the passion – of her work. “There is a misconception that journalists can be objective,” she tells me, the same sharp glance to ensure my comprehension. “Palestinians tell me I’m objective. I think this is important because I’m an Israeli. But being fair and being objective are not the same thing. What journalism is really about – it’s to monitor power and the centers of power.”
Each day, Amira Hass writes an essay about despair, a chronological narrative she maintains when talking about her own life and about her parents: her mother, a Sarajevo Jew who joined Tito’s partisans and was forced to surrender to the Nazis when they threatened to kill every woman in the Montenegrin town of Cetinje; her father Avraham who spent four years in the Transnistria ghetto, escaping a plague of typhus only to lose his toes to frostbite.
The story of the secular Jews Hannah and Avraham is essential to an understanding of Amira. “My parents came here to Israel naively. They were offered a house in Jerusalem. But they refused it. They said: ‘We cannot take the house of other refugees.’ They meant Palestinians. So you see, it’s not such a big deal that I write what I do – it’s not a big deal that I live among Palestinians.” Hass became a journalist by default. She had survived on odd jobs – she once worked as a cleaner – and traveled to Holland. “I sensed there the absence of Jewish existence. And this told me many things, especially about my attitude to Israel, how not to be a Zionist. This is my place, Israel, the language, the people, the culture, the colors...”
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0826-04.htm
Report thisBy Robert, October 15, 2007 at 4:39 am #
POSTS BY “HECKLER HOWARD”
SINCE YOUR “POSTS” ARE NOT YOUR WORDS/INFORMATION...HOW ABOUT PROVIDING A SOURCE , A LINK/URL !!!
Report thisBy Jabbernow, October 15, 2007 at 4:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
ILAN PAPPE, A BRAVE JEWISH ISRAELI HISTORIAN, TALKS ABOUT ISRAEL’S ETHNIC CLEANSING OF THE PALESTINIANS!
FANATIC HARDCORE ZIONISTS WILL NOT LIKE WHAT ILAN PAPPE HAS TO SAY ABOUT ISRAEL AND ITS RACISM!
George Galloway talks about Israel and Palestine with the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe.
Click on the links for a total squence of 3 parts:
Report this----------------------------------------------
Yeah! Like I give a shit what Ilan Pappe or George Galloway thinks! First, he Galloway, is married to a Palestninian and Richter is nothing more than a publicity whore like Ann Coulter trying to look important. I might as well go read comments by Yassar Arafat!
By ray, October 15, 2007 at 2:59 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
hi
You just have to look at australia a jewish business man has robbed the australian people of billions, whats going to happen nothing. He is the biggest supportor with cash and gifts to the national government.He is protected, what can you say
grant
Report thisBy cyrena, October 15, 2007 at 1:08 am #
#107096 by Non Credo
• ….”Cyrena, I believe you were premature in ruling out the possibility that Howard is stupid.”…
Non Credo, I had to laugh out loud. Yes, you’re right. I was premature. But, it’s more serious than ‘plain’ stupid. He’s dangerously stupid. But then, we knew that. The latest post takes us even further back, to 1922, as if that has any connection, reality, or truth to the crimes of the past 60 years.
Meantime, I just came across this. (just because it popped up in the feed). It was actually posted in the NYT, (or that’s where I got it from) but seems to have originated with Reuters, in Jerusalem.
It seems very ‘odd’ to me, that they would only JUST NOW, be doing this. I don’t know what’s up with it.
Olmert Inquiry Is Ordered
Published: October 15, 2007
JERUSALEM, Oct. 14 (Reuters) — Israel’s attorney general ordered the police on Sunday to begin a new criminal investigation into Ehud Olmert’s conduct in government before he became prime minister. A string of corruption probes — three in all — has raised questions about Mr. Olmert’s political survival as he prepares for an American-led conference next month on Palestinian statehood.
Attorney General Menachem Mazuz said in a statement that the investigation would focus on Mr. Olmert’s tenure as minister of industry, trade and labor.
I know, it’s short. That’s all it says. Something’s up.
OH….Condi just got there as well. I’m starting to wonder if she too, has dual citizenship. She’s definitely a frequent flyer on that route.
I guess that would prove Howard right on 1 being out of millions. Then again, I think she might just be one of those ‘left behind’ with the rest of us.
Report thisBy Howard, October 14, 2007 at 6:29 pm #
And to dispel other myths that have been bandied about on this page it should be known that at the time of the 1947 partition resolution, the Arabs did have a majority in western Palestine as a whole — 1.2 million Arabs versus 600,000 Jews.7 But the Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them by the resolution and in Jerusalem.
Prior to the Mandate in 1922, Palestine’s Arab population had been declining. Afterward, Arabs began to come from all the surrounding countries. In addition, the Arab population grew exponentially as Jewish settlers improved the quality of health conditions in Palestine.
The decision to partition Palestine was not determined solely by demographics; it was based on the conclusion that the territorial claims of Jews and Arabs were irreconcilable, and that the most logical compromise was the creation of two states. Ironically, that same year, 1947, the Arab members of the United Nations supported the partition of the Indian sub-continent and the creation of the new, predominantly Muslim state of Pakistan
Report thisBy Howard, October 14, 2007 at 6:16 pm #
No, the Myth is that Israel is racist !
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 5:30 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Non Credo on 10/14 at 4:04 pm
Howie, Howie.
Would it be OK for Germany to grab Poland, kicking out the Poles who live there, explaining, “You are Slavic people; so are the Russians. So you should be happy to leave your homes and go to Russia. Russia is much bigger than Germany and Poland put together. You Slavic people have plenty of room. We Germans just want little bitty Poland. If you resist this reasonable request with violence, you are terrorists. And if the Russians don’t welcome you, it just shows that the Slavic people don’t care for their own kind. They should learn from the admirable ethnic solidarity that we Germans show towards each other.”
Howard - you can’t kick people off their lend on the basis of ethnicity, just because to YOU they’re “the same” as some other people who live nearby.
“You’re Arabs, so you should just go live in that other Arab country over there!” - Howie explains.
Is Howard stupid, or does he just hope that we are?
As usual, Non Credible doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Following WWII, the Soviet Union did EXACTLY THAT in reverse to Poland and Germany, shifting Poland west, and chopping off the eastern 1/3 for the Soviet Union. What used to be East Prussia and the Free City of Danzig is now western Poland and the Polish City of Gdansk (Where Lech Walesa got his start). Poles were forcibly removed from eastern Poland and Germans from East Prussia. The world accepted it in silence.
I know Non Credible and Saran Wrap don’t believe me, but I don’t ask them to or care--simply study modern history. Or even simpler: Look at a map of Europe prior to September 1, 1939, and again in 1950.
My point (for those with brains and the ability to use them)? Non Credible’s example is useless and meaningless.
Report thisBy Robert, October 14, 2007 at 5:26 pm #
ILAN PAPPE, A BRAVE JEWISH ISRAELI HISTORIAN, TALKS ABOUT ISRAEL’S ETHNIC CLEANSING OF THE PALESTINIANS!
FANATIC HARDCORE ZIONISTS WILL NOT LIKE WHAT ILAN PAPPE HAS TO SAY ABOUT ISRAEL AND ITS RACISM!
George Galloway talks about Israel and Palestine with the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe.
Click on the links for a total squence of 3 parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhfEWqBvav0&feature =PlayList&p=F18C8A0CAA556AD6&index=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTk4FwkvFmo&feature =PlayList&p=F18C8A0CAA556AD6&index=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQU_H1zclQk&feature =PlayList&p=F18C8A0CAA556AD6&index=2
Report thisBy cyrena, October 14, 2007 at 5:15 pm #
#107074 by Non Credo
• Is Howard stupid, or does he just hope that we are?
Non Credo, the answer is, he hopes we are. He’s not stupid, or he wouldn’t have just written all of that other trash about a 1937 Peel Commission. Oddly, he writes all of that, and at the very bottom, he writes: MYTH. And, that’s exactly what it all is. MYTH. As I read through it, I wondered where he could have possibly dug it all up. Why did he post it, (as fact) and then end with – MYTH?
Still, I don’t think he’s stupid, any more than the average psychopath is stupid. He’s just dangerous if anybody actually believes anything he says or writes.
Report thisBy Howard, October 14, 2007 at 4:23 pm #
The Peel Commission in 1937 concluded the only logical solution to resolving the contradictory aspirations of the Jews and Arabs was to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states.
The Arabs rejected the plan because it forced them to accept the creation of a Jewish state, and required some Palestinians to live under “Jewish domination.” The Zionists opposed the Peel Plan’s boundaries because they would have been confined to little more than a ghetto of 1,900 out of the 10,310 square miles remaining in Palestine.
Nevertheless, the Zionists decided to negotiate with the British, while the Arabs refused to consider any compromises.
Again, in 1939, the British White Paper called for the establishment of an Arab state in Palestine within 10 years, and for limiting Jewish immigration to no more than 75,000 over the following five years. Afterward, no one would be allowed in without the consent of the Arab population. Though the Arabs had been granted a concession on Jewish immigration, and been offered independence — the goal of Arab nationalists — they repudiated the White Paper.
With partition, the Palestinians were given a state and the opportunity for self-determination. This too was rejected.
MYTH
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 3:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
He has NOT given up yet! He is laying LOW now, but he will surface back up when things sort of cool down and seems safe enough to blend back in the forum’s crowd. Those have been his habits...illusive but still there monitoring all comments/posts. He and his ilk are professional zionist hecklers and most likely ADL members/volunteers.
Ah, Abu, you genius--you found me out....How am I EVER going to get away from my guilt in causing Hurricane Katrina...And, yes, I caused Mt. St. Helens to explode. You can blame me for causing the tsunami, and the melting of the Arctic. Yes, I admit--Krakatoa? That was my nefarious doing as well...I very cleverly have hidden that I was alive in the mid 1800’s.
You are such a crackpot tin-foil-hat paranoid nazi sonuvabitch that I’m sure you’ll believe all that fantasy. How? Doesn’t matter to you paranoia types.
Report thisBy Howard, October 14, 2007 at 3:18 pm #
At any point during the past 55 years, Arab governments could have helped the Palestinian Arabs settle down to a decent life. They could have created the infrastructure of an autonomous Palestine on the West Bank of the Jordan and the Gaza territory that Egypt controlled until 1967, or encouraged the resettlement of Palestinians in Jordan, which constitutes the lion’s share of the original mandate of Palestine. Rather than fund the Palestine Liberation Organization to foment terror against Israel they could have endowed Palestinian schools of architecture, engineering, medicine and law. What Israel did for its refugees from Arab lands, Arabs could have done much more sumptuously for the Palestinians displaced by the same conflict. Instead, Arab rulers cultivated generations of refugees in order to justify their ongoing campaign against the “usurper.”
Report thisBy Robert, October 14, 2007 at 2:56 pm #
#107041 by cyrena on 10/14 at 1:02 pm
(1251 comments total)
“And, I’m way too old to be the least bit affected by these pathetic threats.
No, ITW has NOT helped his/her case with me. Just made me more aware of the crimes of the entire bunch of them.
And, I still don’t care about the Ben Franklin letter.
I DO know that none of OUR kids are gonna give their lives and limbs for Israel or AIPAC, or any of the other Criminal Thugs currently running this country.”
==============================================
Cyrena ... My gut feeling is that this ITZW doesn’t really care about you or anybody else on this and other forums.
For ITZW and his ilk...POST GOOD, POSITIVE COMMENTS/PROPAGANDA ABOUT...HIS ISRAEL.
ITZW knows that you are articulate, a prolific writer/poster and a compassionate woman. (1) His goals and objectives were to recruit you to write/post for his “Apartheid Israel” and his zionist ideology on truthdig’s forums. (2) If #1 wasn’t achievable, then at least to keep you on his side of his zionist equation.
He has NOT given up yet! He is laying LOW now, but he will surface back up when things sort of cool down and seems safe enough to blend back in the forum’s crowd. Those have been his habits...illusive but still there monitoring all comments/posts. He and his ilk are professional zionist hecklers and most likely ADL members/volunteers.
Take a look at this short video… Scott Ritter is talking about AIPAC and Israel.
Scott Ritter describes Israel’s role in shaping U.S. Foreign policy:
“WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL (VIDEO)”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O125hGt9qt4
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 1:32 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Quite honestly, I’m pretty sick of ITW. I don’t know if he/she has comprehended that he/she has actually made the case for animosity toward them by non-Jewish people here and everywhere.
**********
So now it’s MY fault you’ve decided to hate all Jews? Sorry, lady, that’s a crock of shit. You want to dislike or hate me? That you are “sick” of me? That’s one thing.
But deciding you dislike or hate Jews because of ME makes YOU the bigot and the racist. Not my fault, but yours. And to hate all of a group because of one individual IS SICK!
And I’m damn sick of you, Abu, Non Credible and others constantly re-inforcing each others’ fantasies and then saying it’s MY fault.
Blaming all Jews for my actions makes you an anti-semite, a bigot, even a neo-nazi.
If I was bigoted enough or racist enough or just plain STUPID enough to condemn all African- Americans for your postings and idiocies, then, and ONLY then would I be as bad as you.
But I’m wiser than that. I stick all your faults and failings, Cyrena, on you and YOU ALONE!
Report thisBy cyrena, October 14, 2007 at 1:02 pm #
#106965 by Non Credo
Non Credo writes:
(2) Do we really know that ITW researched the matter and proved to us that Franklin said no such thing? ITW is in a constant Jewish Victim panic.
Non Credo,
I would have to guess that ITW probably DID research this, just like he researches any tiny little thing that would allegedly ‘prove’ his/her case, regardless of whether or not it’s relevant to anything else. That’s why he/she is ON it, anytime there’s anything to suggest that an Arab Palestinian has possibly allowed some fart to escape. ITW will swear it as an act of terrorism.
Quite honestly, I’m pretty sick of ITW. I don’t know if he/she has comprehended that he/she has actually made the case for animosity toward them by non-Jewish people here and everywhere.
I’m serious. I grew up here in California, and long enough ago that I was raised in a working class neighborhood that had a bunch of Jews. (Asians, Blacks, and Whites as well). So, I never developed any sort of bias against anybody. (at least not based on race, class, or religion. And, I didn’t become aware of the political power of the Jews in this country until much later. By then, (because I was too busy to pay a whole lot of attention to politics) and because I was by then thoroughly immersed in the ‘corporate customer service’ mentality. I STILL didn’t exercise any bias, because on my personal and professional level, I not only KNEW a lot of Jews, but the ones I knew were perfectly OK with me. (I have run into some that were overwhelmingly obnoxious, but I didn’t blame the entire race for them, since I know some overwhelmingly obnoxious black and white and Asian folks as well.)
But now, I hear people like ITW and Howard, and they make the rest of them look just as bad. AIPAC should be classified as a hate group, and the rest of them just keep making it worse for themselves, by letting folks like this show their true face. The Jews I know DO NOT support Israel’s atrocious human rights violations, and they see the Palestinian case for what it is, a Holocaust perpetrated against them, by the Jews of Israel and the world. It’s the longest running case of ethnic cleansing in the history of the world, and ANYBODY who finds reasons/excuses to support it, is rotten to the very core of their souls. (or, they don’t even have souls).
And, I’m way too old to be the least bit affected by these pathetic threats.
No, ITW has NOT helped his/her case with me. Just made me more aware of the crimes of the entire bunch of them.
And, I still don’t care about the Ben Franklin letter.
I DO know that none of OUR kids are gonna give their lives and limbs for Israel or AIPAC, or any of the other Criminal Thugs currently running this country.
Report thisBy Robert, October 14, 2007 at 8:43 am #
Democracy is more than going to the polls
By Amira Hass
“Potentially, hundreds of thousands of Jewish Israelis could have taken part in activities against the multi-faceted Israeli oppression - the apartheid laws and orders, military attacks, hidden information, economic siege, land expropriation, expanding settlements, and more. Not a hair on their head would be touched. These are people who say they support peace, with a Palestinian state beside Israel. But apparently their interpretation of participation in democracy is going to the polls once every few years, and faint protest in their living room.
However, democracy also is displaying civic responsibility, by constantly supervising the political decisions and acts between elections, thus ensuring that democracy’s essence has not been eroded. Those who say they support a two-state solution are ignoring the other facet of the democracy-for-Jews - the military regime that it imposes on the Palestinians. This regime creates faits accomplis all the time, foiling the last chance for a solution (i.e. full withdrawal with slight changes to the June 4, 1967 lines and establishing a Palestinian state).
The Jewish citizens who enjoy their democracy are not personally harmed by its other facet. On the contrary, they gain from it - cheap land and quality housing, additional water sources, a cadre of security professionals in demand worldwide, and thriving defense industries. This is the “calm” that even self-defined peace supporters refrain from disrupting.
In the Soviet empire and racist South Africa - like in today’s Burma (Myanmar) - objecting to oppression involved a high personal price. Therefore, one could understand the objectors who chose not to act. In Israel, because it is a democracy for Jews, all those who sit idle, ignoring what is being done in their name, bear a heavy responsibility.
Chiefs of staff, prime ministers, ministers and generals are not the only ones responsible. Anyone who theoretically objects to oppression, discrimination and expulsion, but does not actively take part in the struggle and in creating a constant popular resistance to topple the apartheid regime we have created here, is responsible.”
(Amira Hass is a Jewish Israeli reporter)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/908880.html
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 6:39 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
(2) Do we really know that ITW researched the matter and proved to us that Franklin said no such thing?
Here’s something you don’t understand, you or Cyrena:
The beauty of intellectual honesty is I don’t expect you to believe me. I don’t want you to believe me. I want you to see for yourselves and convince yourselves. All I can do is suggest an avenue of research but you intellectually lazy types have to get off you asses and do the work yourselves, and challenge your assumptions.
Cyrena:
Your implications that I am not loyal to America and PARTICULARLY the American Constitution, without which we are just another empire (See George W. Bush) continues to reveal that you, like Non Credo, Abu and the rest, are incapable of critical thinking, and just throw any crap against the wall to see what will stick.
I should move to Israel? That’s like telling you that you should go “back” to Africa. It’s stupid and insulting. And typical.
Report thisBy Dan Rose, October 14, 2007 at 6:26 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
They will never forgive the Jews that (they,the Jews) birthed Jesus.
Report thisBy Jabbernow, October 14, 2007 at 5:45 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Non Credo get a clue! The poor economic conditions of the Palestinians are a direct result of Palestinian militants killing Israeli civilians. It is a result of failed Palestinian leaders especially Arafat who never was a serious partner in peace. Ask me why the Palestinians live in those conditions and I would ask you to tell me where all the hundreds of billions of dollars went that the US, EU and the rest of the Arab world gave them for the past 30 years? They could have easily built new housing only they want the sympathy of the world just like your giving them. Arafat who put away untold millions in Swiss bank accounts and who traveled the world living like a King in plush penthouses while his so-called people live in squalor.
Report thisThe Palestinian Charter still calls for the destruction of Israel. Why don’t you read Res.242 and stop your whining! What did you expect Israel to help them after they are attacked? Give me just one example of any country in the world that would willfully give back land it won in a defensive war? That is a war in which the Israeli’s were attacked and threatened with annihilation, the 67’ borders only represent armistice lines it is not representative of a safe and secure border. The Israeli’s have been in 6 wars in which they were attacked they defended themselves each time and won. This is not a chess game where one side loses and we put back the pieces and play again! This is a dispute over land. Name one country in the world that would have gone through what the Israeli’s have and not have finished the job right the first time. Russia? China? What if Canada and Mexico simultaneously attacked the US with cross border raids killing US soldiers and kidnapping others? What do you think the US response would be? It would be swift and deadly, no superpower in the world or any sovereign country for that matter would put up with it. I can tell you know a lot about the Arab street. In the Middle East if you are attacked and fail to retaliate then you are perceived as weak. Every time the world comes to the rescue of the poor Palestinian militants just when the Israeli’s are ready to finish the job. If the Palestinian people want peace they need to elect true leaders for peace. Hamas is only capable of escalating the fighting and now the Israeli’s will end up electing a hawk and we once again see the cycle of violence escalate…
By Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2007 at 4:29 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Non Credo on 10/14 at 3:52 am
(348 comments total)
from #106867 by Robert on 10/13 at 4:33 pm:
“he [Tony Blair] was genuinely taken aback by his trip to the West Bank sector of the Jordan Valley – where Palestinians are allowed to dig wells only a third as deep as Israelis – at the exploitation of resources by the rich Jewish agricultural settlements at the expense of closed-in Palestinian farmers.”
Does not this single detail tell us all we need to know about the supposed ethical superiority of the Israelis? Does it not prove them to be deeply vicious and arrogant, even sadistic ?
As usual, a VERY obvious detail is omitted: The Palestinians are NOT Israeli citizens. If Arab Israelis are also not allowed to dig full-depth wells you’d have a point.
Also, as has been well-documented for at least 20 years, the REAL conflict isn’t over land but over water rights.
We are all Palestinians.
Then prepare to be beaten up by the Palestinian Morality Police, with their red armbands and AK-47s,
Report thisif you eat or drink anything during Ramadan. Your fellow Palestinians will be much harder on you than the IDF--and with less predictability and justice. Prepare to abandon religious and political freedom for Taliban-like conformity and brutality.
By cyrena, October 14, 2007 at 4:21 am #
#106781 by Inherit The Wind
• As for you, Cyrena, I thought you had a brain and a pair of eyes. I see I was mistaken, since you couldn’t figure out that the nazi was quoting that phony citation of Benj. Franklin’s as a message that excluding Jews from America was PRECISELY what he was advocating. I won’t make that mistake again.
I’ve lost you here ITzW:
I’m not sure what it is that you think I couldn’t figure out, and so that means that –for me at least- it obviously was NOT IMPORTANT!! I’ll repeat what I said in the comment, WHOMEVER you claim was ‘advocating” the exclusion of Jews from America, (which is your psychotic claim) would pretty much be ‘whistling in the wind”.
In other words, just pretty much shooting off at the mouth, (or keyboard) the same way YOU do. That’s because the REALITY is that Jews will never be excluded from America.
Now, I asked you before, why this was such a traumatizing thought for you, (being excluded from America) when you can - at any time, go to the wonderful land of Israel. Why is that such a harrowing thought? Isn’t Israel a wonderful place? I mean, heaven on earth, at least for Jews?
I don’t understand it.
Now of course I know you won’t answer or respond to this question, which is the only reason I’m even posing it. Admittedly, I’m going against the very advice that I suggested to Non Credo, which was to simply ignore you. But hell, now that I’m without a brain or a pair of eyes, I can be excused for indulging in such a wasteful pass-time.
Toodles. (have you run out of your meds again?)
PS...on the Ben Frankin thing, that you pointed out to be a forgery? It wasn’t that I couldn’t ‘figure it out’. The point was that I DIDN’T try!! IOW...it was NOT IMPORTANT. (at least not to me). I really didn’t care. I wasn’t even AWARE of it. THAT’S why I thanked you for researching it.
OTOH, it wouldn’t have mattered to me, whether or not I EVER became aware of the existence of such a letter, whether it was a ‘forgery’ or not.
Get those meds refilled. You’re a danger to yourself and others.
Report thisBy Robert, October 13, 2007 at 4:33 pm #
Tony Blair “genuinely” shocked that world is round
Blair admits he is shocked by discrimination on the West Bank
10.13.2007 | The Independent
By Donald Macintyre in Hebron
While his aides munched tuna bagels thoughtfully provided by the Israeli military, a shirt-sleeved Tony Blair peered intently at a map showing the two main cargo crossing-points that will function between the West Bank and Israel once the 450-mile separation barrier between them is complete.
Why, Mr Blair wanted to know from his host, an Israeli general in civvies, couldn’t goods also be moved directly across the border from the nearby Palestinian industrial park that he is pressing Israel to approve?
“Why can’t they go straight through?” Ah, that would be difficult, the general explained, requiring a whole new expensive security apparatus to check goods going into the park.
We are a long from way from No 10. At Tarqumia to be precise, just inside the West Bank and one of those crossing points – a forbidding grey antenna and camera-studded complex of checkpoints still under construction. Mr Blair is on the road, grappling with the mind-numbing complexities of how the physical security infrastructure of the occupation has squeezed the Palestinian economy.
It is a theme reinforced for him in Hebron, the Palestinian city whose core was once the thriving commercial hub of the southern West Bank. Its mayor, Khaled Osaily, briefs him extensively about how much of its old city is boarded up, stripped of Palestinian life because of the presence of some 800 Jewish settlers, and their military protectors.
As Mr Blair’s convoy threads out of the city through the afternoon Ramadan traffic afterwards, Mr Osaily compliments Mr Blair on his thirst for facts. No, they had not talked much about the prospects for the forthcoming US-convened Annapolis conference on which hopes of any revival of a peace process have no been vested by the international community and in the preparations for which Mr Blair is intimately involved. “He is a practical man,” said Mr Osaily. “He asked many questions about daily life here. We talked about the economy, about movement, about security. He wanted to know details.”
Mr Blair gave the Israeli daily Yedhiot Ahronot his stock answer yesterday to questions about what he has learnt since taking the job. “I have learnt the depth of Israel’s concern for security, and I have learnt the depth of the Palestinians’ distress caused by the occupation.”
Certainly he accepts Israel’s view that Palestinians should not have a state until it can reasonably guarantee its neighbour’s security. Hence the importance he attaches to the efforts that US General Keith Dayton is making to beef up Palestinian security forces. Indeed he has been telling diplomats and others that the emergency Palestinian Prime Minister, Salam Fayad, does not enter Nablus because he will not make the deal with the militias needed to guarantee his security.
He was shocked by what he was told about conditions in Hebron and diplomats say he was genuinely taken aback by his trip to the West Bank sector of the Jordan Valley – where Palestinians are allowed to dig wells only a third as deep as Israelis – at the exploitation of resources by the rich Jewish agricultural settlements at the expense of closed in Palestinian farmers. And he has been privately dismissive – rather more so perhaps than he was as Prime Minister – of the argument by some Israelis that security comes first, with economics and a political deal well behind it. “All three have to happen together” he has told diplomats – which is what he sees Annapolis as being about. This week he has been concentrating on the economics and is pressing Israel to permit job growth in the West Bank’s Area C, where it has direct as well as total control – including a Japanese government plan for an “agro-industrial” park in the Jordan Valley.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11& ar=1256
Report thisBy Jabbernow, October 13, 2007 at 1:16 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
While Jimmy Carter and other critics of Israel attempt to paint the country as intolerant and discriminatory toward Arabs based on their ill-informed and distorted views of both the past and present, Israeli Arabs themselves have a very high opinion of their